them by whom the Ghospell came to vs which first they preached and after by the will of God deliuered vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith CHAMP If you had taken but ordinarie heede what you wrote you woulde not haue sayde that my position hath anie opposition with S. Ireneus who sayth not that the Apostles wrote all they preached as he should haue don to make your antithesis good but onlie that they wrote the same gospell which they preached and not a different or contrarie doctrine to their preachinge as some prophane heretickes of whom he maketh there mentioÌ„ impudentlie taught which sence of this Father your selfe acknowledge pag. 5. But if you will needes make this consequence they wrote that which they preached ergo they wrote all that they preached as you must argue if you will make anie antithesis betwixt my position and S. Ireneus his doctrine I will say that either you haue forgotten your logicke or that you neuer had anie For to make or inferre an vniuersall proposition of an indefinite in nâ—n necessarijs is most absurde as you shall see by these examples Homo est albus vel caluus ergo omnis homo est a â—us vel caluus or the kinge writeth that he speaketh and thinketh therefore he writeth all he speaketh or thinketh Moreouer of S. Ireneus his iudgment concerninge traditions you might haue informed your selfe by the chapter immediatelie followinge that which you cite where he hath these wordes When we appeall to that tradition which descendinge from the Apostles is by the succession of priestes in the Churche preserued they to wit heretikes reiect Traditions PILK The scriptures are darke and difficult to be vnderstoode and all articles of faith are not clearelie layde downe in them All thinges are cleare in the holy scriptures to them that come to them with a godlie minde CHAMP The position of the Manuall which you ayme at as this All places of holy scripture containinge articles of faith the obstinate misbeleefe whereof is damnable are not easie to be vnderstoode but require some rule to be interpreted by Nowe if you will maintaine this position to be opposite to S. Epiphanius you must graunte that your doctrine is opposite to him which I euidentlie shewe in this manner In the roll of positions which you say are forgéd by me against you and are sett downe by you in the next page of your booke This in the second All places of holie scripture conteininge articles of faith are easie to be vnderstoode which proposition if you will reiect as none of yours as you doe in the place mentioned then must necessarilie the contradictorie proposition which is the same with mine here carped at by you and wich you say is opposite to S. Epiphanius be yours and then doe you contradict S. Epiphanius if you will say that I doe Or if you will confesse the truth and acknowledge this latter proposition to be yours as doubtles it is why doe you then charge me with forgeinge it against you Accorde your owne sayinges and then shall I knowe what to answere vnto In the meane while you are vnfortunate to stumble so grosselie if contradictinge your selfe in so shorte a space may be termed onlie stumblinge in the verie entrance of your dispute My position shall be shewed agreeable both with holy Scriptures and auncient Fathers in due place And as for your authoritie alleaged out of S. Epiphanius if it be in him as I knowe noâ— whether it be or noe for it is cited by you so at large that I cannot finde it it may haue this true sence and meaninge That all thinges are cleare in scriptures to such as come to them with this minde to vnderstande them as the catholicke Churche and the true pastors thereof interpret them Which sayinge hath noe contrarietie at all with my position For I doe not say that the scriptures are harde to be vnderstoode by the churche or that they neede another rule to be interpreted by then the Churches vnderstandinge and interpretation PILK The sence of the holy scriptures geuen by the churche is vnfalliblie true as are also the definitions and declarations of faith deliuered by the same and euerie one is bounde vppon his damnation not to reiect the iudgment therof Who knoweth not that the holie scriptures as well of the old as newe testament is contayned in certaine boundes and so is to be preferred before all the latter writinges of Bishoppes that noe man ought to doubte att all or call in question whether it be true or right whatsoeuer is written therein when as the writinges of Bishopes that haue been or are written after the canon confirmed may lawfullie be reprehended both by the wiser speache of anie that is more skilfull in that matter and by grauer authoritie of other Bishopps and wisdome of the learned and also by councells if they haue in anie point wandred from the truth and euen nationall and prouincial councells doe giue place to those that are collected out of the whole vniuersall Christian worlde and generall counsells themselues are often amended the former by the latter as often as by tryal experience the thinge was opened that before was shutt or knowne that was hidd without anie swellinge of sacrilegious pride or stiffe necke of arrogancie or contention of deadlie enuie with holy humilitie with Catholicke peace with Christian charitie CHAMP You doe greatlie abuse your readers patience farceinge your booke with such impertinencies And you doe no lesse wronge the holy Father S. August bringinge his wordes as coÌ„tradictinge the churches infallibilitie in matters of faith and interpretation of the scriptures which he so often and so euidently restifieth But to conuince you of wilfulnes in abusinge S. Aug. it shall suffice to sett here before you that onlie Testimonie of the same holy Father which is expressed in the Manuall in proofe of this position which you would haue him to contradict His wordes there sett downe are these Although noe example is brought out of holie scripture of this thinge that the Baptisme of heretickes is sufficient yett doe we followe the truth of the same scripture in this point whilst we doe that which pleaseth the whole Churche which the authoritie of scriptures doth commend And because the holie scripture cannot deceaue whosoeuer feareth to be deceaued by the obscuritie of these questions letâ— him consulte therevpon with the churche which without all doubte the scriptures doe shewe Iudge nowe with your selfe whether you or I speake more conformablie to S. Aug. That which you alleage out of him of the doctrine of particular Bishopps or councells compared with the doctrine of holy scripture is altogether impertinent to your purpose That which he saith of vniuersall councells that the former may be ameÌ„ded by the latter is vnderstoode of matters pertayninge to manners or practise which often are changed accordinge as circumstances
dishonour vnless you prooue more solide and sincere in the rest of your booke Which if you doe not I shall much marueyle if euer you be more imployed by your Metropolitane either to defend your owne or impugne the Catholicke doctrine And before I goe anie further with you I would haue you to vnderstande that when I putt downe the position contradictorie to the Catholicke I doe not distinguishe betwixt this or that sect of protestants but include them all that hold or teache against the Catholicke doctrine whether they be Lutherans Zuinglians Anabaptists or Parlamentariās all which with the rest of all the re malignāt broode I vnderstande by the name of protestants Nowe I will goe forwarde with you in this order I will first sett downe the wordes of the Manuall in sections as you haue deuided it then I will putt downe your answere in your owne wordes and lastlie I will add myne owne reply THE PREFACE TO THE READER MANVALL SECTION I. THis briefe treatise courteous reader beinge at the request of a friende speedilie compiled may serue to conuince them of manifest calumnie who no lesse vntrulie then bouldlie doe affirme the doctrine of the Catholicke Romane Churche to be either against holy scriptures or at least to haue no grounde from them And it may also geue satisfaction vnto such as more vppon the confident boldenes of them that affirme the Romane Religion to be destitute of scriptures then vppon anie other reason are drawne either to thinke this to be true or at least to doubte of the truthe of the contrarie PILK He that aduisedlie shall read your Manuall of Controuersies will easilie beleeue you were in haste when you contriued it forgettinge that wise speach of Cato reported by Hierome Sat cito si sat bene For whether it were your great celeritie which is the mother of manie slippes or whether it be the badnes of your cause that admitteth noe iust scarse probable proofe so perfunctorilie and lightlie tanquam canis à nido you haue touched these matters as if of purpose you would haue setled in the mindes of men that which you labour to ouerthrowe So that if poperie haue noe surer footinge in the sacred worde of God then this which you haue found for it then it will appeare noe calumnnie but a manifest veritie that the Roman religion is without grounde of scripture CHAMP Mr. Pilkinton thoughe your wordes be manie as emptie of substance as they are full of falsities and therefore will neither quitte labour nor cost to relate them yett will I sustaine so much paines as to sett them downe as they lye so farr as I shall goe with you I say so farr as I shall goe with you because I intend not to loose so much tyme as to looke thorowe your whole booke As for the slippes therefore you speake of if you shall make good but one quarter so manie in my whole booke notwithstandinge the the celeritie I vsed in compilinge it as I haue allreadie marked grosse and flatt falls in three pages onlie of yours after fower whole yeres studie in the worke I promise you faithfullie I will commend it to the fire to be forged a newe And thoughe Catholicke religion which you disdainsullie call poperie had no other footinge in holy Scripture then that which I haue sett downe in proofe of it yett will it be better grounded then your protestantisme euen by the iudgment of your owne freindes and myne aduersaries if they will but with one sparke of iudgment and indifferrencie parallel your proofes and myne together PILK First you confesse that the Scripture is not the totall but the partiall rule of your faith therefore that parte of your faith which is with out the compasse of this rule hath no proofe or grounde from it for the rule is that whereby euerie thinge is prooued Nowe the thinges without the compasse of this rule your selfe acknowledge to be manie yea the greatest parte of the Gospell for the least parte is come vnto vs by writinge as others teache and your selfe accorde therefore a small parte of your faith can claime this birth-right from the Scriptures but is auouched by your teachers beleeued by your hearers onlie on the creditt of tradition which euerie one might knowe if anie of your deuines woulde consigne vnto vs a catologue of your traditions A matter that in conscience they ought to doe fith your counsell chargeth to geue equall reuerence to traditions as is afforded to holy scriptures And yett none of you haue performed this taske least your aduersaries should see the pouertie of your religion how naked it is of the protection of scriptures And your selues haue a startinge hole to fly vnto vnwritten verities and traditions when you cannot deriue your doctrine from the written worde of God CHAMP I confesse the Scriptures to be a partiall rule of our faith if we speake of those thinge which are expresslie contayned in Scripture and therefore I say there must necessarilie be a more vniuersal rule of saith thē the expresse Scriptures by which rule we receiue and beleeue the Scriptures themselues to be such And this is true by the iudgment of manie most iudicious protestants Notwithstāndinge the Manuall expresslie teacheth that all articles of saith are contained in scriptures so fair as they testifie the authoritie of the churche and veritie of traditions In which sence the scriptures may trulie be sayde to be a totall rule of our faith Where you say that others teache and I accorde that the least parte of the Gospell is come to vs by writinge For my selfe I answere with as much modestie as I may that you sowlie belie me For I neuer so much as dreamed anie such thinge If you groonde this ficton vppon that which I say I here must needes be a more vniuersall rule of faith then the scriptures vnderstandinge me that moe thinges in number are taught vs by tradition alone then by the written worde which interpretation you seeme to make of my wordes I cannot trulie blame my manner of speach but either your dull or captious vnderstandinge my wordes are plaine that because we beleeue some thinges without expresse scripture as that there is a holy scripture and that it is contayned in these and these bookes which is no where expressed in holy scripture there must necessarilie be some other rule more vniuersall that is which teacheth some thinges besides that which is directlie expressed in the holy scripture You cite in the margent Hosius whom it seemeth you vnderstande in the same manner I say it seemeth for whether it be for negligence or fraude you make no reference for what purpose you cite him neither doe you putt downe his wordes for so might you haue been taken trippinge but I finde nothinge in him soundinge to this purpose Hee hath this indeede that the scripture commaundinge vs to heare our pastonrs with whome Christe promised to be alwayes vntill
before of Legat which instance you can neuer answere not satisfy and which onlie is sufficient if you were not obstinatly peruerse to make you ashamed to maintaine so senceles a Paradox and so euidentlie contradicted by perpetuall experience in all ages Your last shifte or euasioÌ„ of interpretinge scripture by scripture vnles there be some agreement or certaintie of the scripture interpretinge more then of the scripture interpreted which abstractinge from the iudgmeÌ„t of the churche cannot be had is a meere mockerie and like as if a man would measure one peece of veluett the measure whereof is as vncertaine as that of the former And to conclude this section it beinge in question betweene the catholikes and protestants who is to be iudge of controuersies in faith yea the roote and key of all controuersies which beinge ended or decided all the rest would haue easie decision you affirminge the scriptures to be this iudge and pretend to prooue this by scripture as al other thinges to be beleeued you are bounde by your owne doctrine to shewe it out of scripture which when you shall doe we will yeelde vnto you in all the rest of the tontrouersies betweene vs. But seeinge you can neuer doe this why doe you not yeelde to vs shewinge you out of manifest scripture the authoritie of the churche to decide controuersies You say the church is a partie and therefore no competent iudge But this hauinge been the cauill of all condemned heretikes and as truly alleaged by them as by you this plea is no more receiueable in you then in them And tell me I pray you the kinge is he not partie in all pleas of felonie or treason that are brought into his courtes yes verilie And yett none euer yet thought of anie such plea as to appeale from the iudgment geuen in his name and by his soueraigne authoritie in such cases Albeit the iudgments geuen in his courtes are farr froÌ„ beinge so assuredly iuste equitable as are the iudgments of the church which hath the infallible promise of the holy ghostes assistance in her decisions and determinations You are therefore fast taken which way soeuer you turne your selfe and this inference of myne That if there be no other iudge of controuersies besides the scriptures God hath not prouided sufficient meanes to saâ—e mens soules which you say is without coherence doth nessarilie followe vppon that supposition that heretikes and namelie protestants doe produce scriptures in proofe of theire false doctrine as catholikes doe for theire orthodoxe beliefe if there be no other iudge to decide the controuersie but only the scripture which inference you haue laboured but all in vaine to ouerthrowe as the indifferent reader will easilie iudge MANVLL SECTION 6. Fiftlie that whereas before I can prooue anie point of Christian beleife by scriptures I should first by good order prooue that there is an holy scripture and secondlie in what bookes of the Bible it is contayned yet because neither of these two canne be prooued by scriptures vnlesse we beleeue some scripture without proofe therfore that I may prooue these pointes of faith wherein the Romane Catholicke churche doth differ from the protestants by holy scriptures which our aduersaries vrge me vnto I must necessarily to satisfy theire disorderlie desire proceede disorderlie and suppose that for truth without proofe which requireth most to be prooued I say without proofe if no proofe be good but that which is made out of scripture PILK All questions are not to be disputed of saith Aristotle but only those whereof man desireth a reason that is not worthie of punishment or lacketh sence For if anie demaunde whether God is to be worshipped or our parents to be loued he deserueth stripes or whether snowe be white he lacketh sence This question of yours whether the scripture be gods worde tendeth to Atheisme and deserueth punishment rather then answere CHAMP In the precedent question to auoyde the authority of the churches iudgment expreslie testified in the scriptures you laboured to maintaine this paradox that notwithstandinge scriptures were produced for either partie of anie controuersie yett the controuersie might be fullie ended and decided by the scriptures alone without anie other iudge decidinge or determininge whether partie vsed the true sence and meaninge of the same scriptures Nowe in this section to auoyde the Authoritie of TraditioÌ„s expreslie also taught in the scriptures you goe aboute to maintaine another paradox no lesse improbable to witt that it is so clearlie manifest not only that there is a written worde of God or holie scripture but also in what booke it is contayned that to moue question in either tendeth to Atheisme and deserueth punishment rather then answere lett vs see howe you make good this your paradox PILK But least you shoulde triumphe before the victorie I answere that as in all humane artes there be certain principles which are knowne of theÌ„selues without anie farther demoÌ„stration So the verties that are contained in the Cannon of the Bible are the principles foundations of diuinitie and receiue not authoritie by other thinges whereby they may be demonstrated saith Cameracensis CHAMP Ignorance in the rudimeÌ„ts of Philosophie maketh you abuse your tearmes egregiouslie For what principles of artes or sciences I pray you are those that are beleeued for themselues none certainlie For the principles of all naturall knowledge are either euidentlie knowne by the light of nature and not beleeued or they are beleeued for the authoritie of a higher knowledge and not beleeued for themselues The verities contayned in the Bible are beleeued not for themselues but for the authoritie of God reueilinge them who onlie is truth it selfe and beleeued for himselfe of whome and from whome they receiue authoritie and haue it not of themselues as you falselie affirme But you say they cannot be demonstrated by other principles It is true for â—â—â—e but the phreneticall or phanaticall Manicheis did desire or expecte demonstration in matter of faith Which as S. August saith is grounded vppon authoritie as knowledge is vppon reason we demaunde therefore of you some authoritie whereby we may reasonablie beleeue the verities contayned in the Bible to haue been reueiled by God without which authoritie we cannot securelie beleeue them to be gods worde PILK Then if the scriptures be principles as it is confessed on both sides it followeth that they are immediate indemonstrable as al other principles are in theire scieÌ„ces where of they are principles but these more theÌ„ others because they are primae veritatis And as the first good for it selfe is to be loued so the first truth for it selfe is to be beleeued saith Aquinas And therefore it is so farr from beinge requisit to prooue the scriptures that S. Aug. saith they are not to be hearde who shoulde say howe doost thou knowe these bookes to be ministred vnto mankinde by the spiritie of the onlie and most true God for this thinge is
be it is manifest that in this case the proofe knowledg of the church must goe before the proofe and knowledge of the scriptures as beinge before it and leadinge vnto it and not the contrarie PILK This is yett more cleare by the verie proposition graunted by Papists that the scripture is the rule whereof the sence is that the sence and doctrine not the letters and characters are this rule Nowe lett our aduersaries iudge whether is more auncient the doctrine of the church which is the seede of the churche or the church which is begotten of it CHAMP You either ignorantlie mistake or wilfullie inuert the question which is not whether the holy scriptures be a rule of faith which noe christian denieth but whether it be the first and most vniuersall rule thereof And this none but heretikes that denie the authoritie of the churche and veritie of traditions both which notwithstandinge are expresselie testified by holy scripture did euer affirme And whether the church be more auncieÌ„t then the scriptures if you doubte as you seeme to doe yea and to affirme the contrarie I shall esteeme you either very senceles or verie wilfull and peâ—uers the scriptures hauinge been written by the churche vnles peraduenture by the scriptures or doctrine of the scriptures you vnderstande the worde of God written in the hearts of men by the immediate reuelation of the holy Ghost and by them deliuered by worde of mouth the one to the other vntill Moises who was the first that euer committed anie thinge to writinge If you take the scriptures in this sence that which you meane is true and if further you acknowledge the authoritie of the churche and veritie of Tradition in deliueringe this doctrine and teachinge it one to another by worde of mouth before it was written our controuersie is at an end The authoritie of the churche and traditions being euidentlie prooued to goe before the scriptures and consequentlie to be a more vniuersall rule of faith then the scriptures PILK So that as your first conclusion is a manifest vntruth that there is a more vniuersall rule of faith then the scriptures So the second is a dull and heauie conceipt that the churche shoulde be more auncient and before them CHAMP If either my first conclusion as you tearme it be a manifest vntruth or my second a dull coÌ„ceipt why doe you doombelie denie it without anie proofe or reason att all Especiallie seinge I prooued the first by cleare instance as you may see and the seconde is but a sequell or necessarie deduction of the first If it be enough for you to say that your aduersaries conclusions thoughe prooued by manifest instance are manifest vntruthes you may well hope to carrie away the bucklers from a farr greater clerke then euer I shall pretende to be For you knowe that Aristotles asse is able to denie more then his mayster is able to prooue PILK Peruse the fathers in whose workes you seeme to be conuersant and nominate one that hath taught either that the authoritie of the churche is a more vniuersall rule or that she was before theire doctrine which are the two cheefest stoopes of your religion whereas in them I finde that the scriptures is the rule and they nominate nothinge else CHAMP If you had weighed S. Aug testimonie which the manuall setteth downe in this place and which you vainlie strugle to auoyde with equall iudgment you woulde not haue putte me to further search of the fathers for proofe of that which I say You shall either deliuer your selfe better from S. Aug authoritie then here you haue donne or else you shall be forced to swallowe it downe as a bitter but a wholsome pill against your heresie Neither will I take the taxe at your hande to searche further the fathers for this purpose till I see this one better satisfied And you fight against your owne shaddowe when you labour to prooue by the fathers that the scriptures are a rule of our faith your aduersaries denyinge it not as I toulde you before But you loue to shewe your strength when none resisteth you And that the fathers nominate no other rule is as true as the rest of your sayinges For seeinge they auouch so plainlie and frequentlie traditions and the churches authoritie as you knowe they doe howe canne you say that they name noe other rule PILK The Ecclesiasticall rule is the consent and conspiration of the old and newe testament saith Clemens The holy scripture doth prefixe vnto vs the rule of our faith saith S. Aug. CHAMP I knowe not whether I shoulde attribute the citinge of this authoritie out of Clemens to your ignoraunce or to your fraude and desire to deceiue by it your reader it is so impertinent to your purpose He sayinge onlie that it is the Ecclesiasticall rule of interpretinge scriptures to make the prophetts and lawe to accorde with the testament of our Sauiour Christ Which what it maketh to prooue the scriptures to be the sole rule of faith I cannot conceiue S. Aug. you cite so at large that I knowe not where to look for the place by you alleaged to see whether it be not as pertinentlie alleaged as the other is And seinge the scriptures doe send vs to our pastours to learne our faith and to the churche commandinge vs to heare it it may well be sayde to prefixe vnto vs the rule of our faith and yett exclude not the churches authoritie for the which we nowe contende So that this place is as fitt for your purpose as the other PILK The churche goeth not out of her boundes that is the holy scriptures saith Ierome And least you might thinke it is the rule but not the onlie rule Vincentius addeth the sole rule of the scriptures is sufficient to all thinges CHAMP The churche followinge the authoritie of tradition and the iudgment of the churche in all matters of saith and manners which the scriptures doe expresslie geue testimonie and warrant vnto doth not goe out of the boundes of the scriptures In citinge Vincentius you vse your accustomed fraude leauinge out the wordes goinge before Which are so expresslie against your purpose that had you sett them downe they had been sufficient to confute your errours in this pointe they are these We haue sayde before haâ— this alwayes hath been and is also at this day the custome of Catholikes to prooue the truth of fayth by these two meanes First by the authoritie of diuine Canon then by tradition of the Catholike churche not because the Canon alone is not sufficient of it selfe to all thinges but c. Now lett the iudicious reader iudge whether this holy father make the scriptures the sole rule of faith or noe When he saith the sacred Canon is sufficient to all thinges he meaneth that it is sufficient to al thinges that is necessarie to euerie mans saluation or to euerie man to beleeue For these thinges are not many and sufficientlie
by scripture to acknowledge I say this position to be false which notwithstandinge is one mayne grounde of all theire religion PILK When a souldier that killed Marius came to cutt of his head he drewe out his sworde and told him hie est gladius quem ipse fecisti for Marius formerlie had been a cutter The groundes that you haue layde cutt the throate of your faith but raseth not the skinne of the protestants For I haue shewed before that scriptures doe sufficiently prooue themselues to be the worde of God and these and these bookes to be such whereon it followeth your conuincinge demonstration that protestants beleeue nothinge att all to be a windy friuoulous discourse whereas such conclusions may be drawne from your principles as will prooue vulnera in capite canis you will not easilie licke them hole CHAMP Remoue the sworde first from your owne throate whiâ—hâ—â— presseth to harde and after may you atteÌ„pt to pietie your aduersarie with it You haue hitherto made a 〈…〉 able shewe of anie proofe but of your owne in reâ—lible ignorance and impertinencie ioyned with wilfull stande to deâ—eâ—â—e your reader If you defend your proâ—estaâ—â—s no better then hitherto you â—â—â—ue they will be euidentlie concluded to belieue nothinge att all by the argument proposed which 〈…〉 e you cannott tell where to begin to solue oâ— anâ—weâ—e you make a Thrasonicall and glorious shâ—we of contempt of it as manie of yours 〈◊〉 and 〈…〉 elie your grand maister Calluine when 〈…〉 most prest and hath least to say for himselfe Are you nâ—â— ashamed to lett myne argument stand as a â—â—â—phey against you your heresie without saying one worde in answere of it idlie supposinge that you haue sayde somethinge to it before But seeinge you dare not sett vppon mine argument to satisfi it which you should first haue donne lett vs see what incurable woundes you geue vnto me out of myne owne principles PILK For they that relie theire faith vppon humane testimonies originallie are conuinced to haue no faith att all for faith commeth by hearinge and hearinge by the worde of God But you papists relie your faith vppon humane testimonies originallie when you ground it on the authoritie of the churche which you say is a more vniuersall rule and more auncient then the scriptures Now then make the conclusion as pleaseth you CHAMP I graunte your proposition or maior and deny your minor For where learned you to terme the authoritie of the churche humane testimonie seeinge the holy ghost stileth the churche the house of God the piller and grounde of truth your conclusion therefore is blowne away like a fether So that the wounde which you thought woulde prooue so grieuous is not so much as the blowe of a litle childe Spitt therefore vppon your handes take better hold and strike more manfullie or else geue your bill to another But so hoodewinkt you are either with ignorance or malice that strikinge at your aduersarie you hitt your selfe For whilst you say with S. Paule that faith commeth by hearinge hearinge by the worde of God you prooue that the scripture or the word written which is not hearde but reade is not the first meanes of our saith but the worde of God preached as S. Paule sayth in the same place which was before the scriptures PILK From hence commeth all this warr that we will not grounde our faith vppon the totteringe wall of humane authoritie as you doe but cleaue fast to the sacred scriptures beleeuinge nothinge as Paule taught but that which was written in Moises and the prophetts which we reioyce to haue made the meane grounde of our religion CHAMP A stoute Champion I wisse that after the first blowe and that a verie weake one casteth downe his armes and thinkinge to ouerthrowe his aduersarie with wordes falleth to raylinge as if he hoped to gaine the victorie rather by his stinkinge breath then by strength of hande stroakes You hauing been att the schoole of the father of all falsehoode haue learned to call the churche of God and the infallible authoritie thereof the totteringe wall of humane authoritie which the holy ghoste by the mouth of this Apostle stileth the piller and ground of truth wherby as by manie other passages you shewe what honour and respect you beare vnto the holy scriptures seeinge you dare so disdainfullie debase the house of God which they so highelie prise and extoll You farther glorie in that you beleeue nothinge but which is written in Moises and the prophettes whereby you prooue your selfe to be a Iewe and no Christian Either retract this Iewishe proposition of yours or blotte out of your Bibles the whole newe testament that you may be knowne to be noe Christian and that you may fill vppe the measure of your grande mayster Martin Luther who hath longe since cast out diuers bookes out of the newe testament besides those he hath reiected out of the oulde You seeme to father this your fowle doctrine vppon S. Paule thoughe you dayne him not the honour of S. Paule but why doe you not poynte att the place where he teacheth it If S. Paule had been of this minde that you woulde seeme to make him of in vayne did he write his Epistells in vayne did the rest of the Apostles and Euangelists write theire workes Againe suppose S. Paule had written anie such thinge in his letters or Epistles howe woulde you make anie man beleeue that Epistle to be his and therefore to be canonicall scriptures vnlesse you will vse the authoritie of tradition and the churches testimonie All the witt and cunning you haue yea thoughe you borrowed all that of the rest of the ministers in the worlde will not shape a sufficient answere to this question PILK And which if we coulde not prooue yett canne we not be conuinced to haue noe faith because they are principles against which none dare open his mouth that anie way woulde haue himselfe to be counted a Christian as S. Aug. spake For as other artes and sciences are sufficientlie knowne credited without proofe of theire principles so matters diuine are perfectlie and demonstratiuelie persuaded vnto vs from this indemonstrable principle of the holy scriptures saith Clemens and are not prooued by iudgment but comprehended by faith CHAMP Why doe you say which iâ— we coulde not prooue as thoughe you had some meane to prooue it without traditions and the churches authoritie But they are principle you say and therefore not to be prooued The scriptures are principles of faith in deede in a certayne degree but they are not prime principles which onlie are to be beleeued for themselues without anie further proofe vnles as I toulde you before you will make them to be God who onlie is to be beleeued for his owne proper veritie and all other verities for him And when you say out of S. Aug. that none dare open their mouth against them that will be counted a
the other is a mere denyall or negation of faith of a positiue article and is as well in horses or asses as in men onlie with this difference that men are capable and may haue the contrarie positiue act but horses and asses cannot If your faith therefore of the negatiue articles which you houlde be of the first kinde you are bounde to prooue it by positiue testimonie of holy scripture If it be onlie of the second kinde then haue you no more faith in these articles then haue horses asses or other brute beastes Nowe to the fathers testimonies so farr as they may seeme to make anie thinge against the catholicke doctrine of traditions or the churches authoritie I answere supposinge they sounde as you sett them downe which I will not stande to examine here that whatsoeuer is prooued by traditions or the churches iudgment is warranted by the scripture which geueth testimonie to the churche and traditions Which answere is S. August lib. 1. cont Crescon cap. 33. PILK Therefore concerninge the profe of our faith in the negatiue points of purgatorie Reall presence Sacrifice of the Masse sith there is noe footinge for them in the worde of God we answere with Basill that it is not faith but a manifest defection from faith to denie that which is written or to bringe in anie thinge that is not written where as Christ IESVS our Lorde saith my sheepe heare my voice CHAMP The iudicious reader shal be iudge whether these catholike articles haue not much faster footinge in the holy scriptures then your contiarie negatiues Neither doth S. Basill anie wayes fauour you For he confirminge his sayinge with these wordes of our Sauiour my sheepe heare my voyce excludeth not that worde of our Sauiour which is more properlie his worde then the scripture For he sayth not my scriptures but my sheepe heare my voyce therfore he speaketh of the voyce as it is deliuered by worde and not as it is written PILK And yett to satisfy you we shall finde sufficient weapons out of the scriptures to lay these Anekims on the grounde Nowe as the Roman Emperour that meant to subdue Germanie brought out his armie and put them in aray vppon the sea shoore and presentlie charged them to gather shelles tellinge them that they were spoyles of the Ocean due to the capitoll So you hauinge marshalled your forces and putt them in order tell your reader that the whole body of them is but a Scheleton bare bones tyed together with drye Sinewes and then without question you will attaine a glorious victorie and bringe spoyles fitt for the vaticane Yet you doubt not but your treatise will please some mens appetite and I am of your minde for like lippes like lettuce Thus from your prolusion I come to your mayne battaille which thus you beginne CHAMP What sharpe weapons you wil finde in the scriptures for your negatiue faith or no beleefe I will with patience expect and hauinge with all indifferencie pondered them I will tell you with all sinceritie what weight they are of in my iudgment In the meane tyme I must tel you that your conclusion seemeth to me as litle wittie as all the rest of your discourse is learned and therfore findinge by the litle experience I haue of you that such lettuce sute well with your lippes I leaue them wholy to your selfe Manuall The first controuersie It is knowne that the catholike Roman churche doth admitte more bookes and parcelles of holy Bible for scripture then the protestants doe and consâ—quently acknowledge a larger Canon then they and yett notwithstandinge shee teacheth PILK The Grecians are euer children rightlie fitteth you Romanists that still lispe like littell children and excellentlie speake without sence For to say the catholike Romane church is as good sence as the vniuersall particular churche CHAMP It is your dull vnderstandinge and not our lisping language that maketh these wordes the Catholicke Roman â—hurâ—h without sence to you For the attribute Romane doth not restraine anie whit the amplitude of the signification of that worde catholicke or vniuersall either in reâ—pect of tyme or place as you ignorantlie imagine but doth onlie distinguish it from all such sects as falselie and presumptuously terme themselues catholike but dare not call themselues RomaÌ„s or Roman Catholickes As in former ages the worde catholike was added to the name christian for the same purpose as auncient Pacianus signifieth Therefore when we say a Roman Catholike we woulde say no more but a true and not a falsely termed catholike And because you are a member of one of those sects which are discried by this worde Romane you hate it as theeues hate the light whereby they are discouered PILK For who can conceiue the catholike churche to be Roman which was in the worlde before Rome it selfe was for it is the generall assembly of the Saints Heb. 12. â—3 from Abell the first iust vnto the last that shall beleeue in Christe as S. Aug speaketh Moreouer all the nations in the worlde not the Romans were promised to Christ psal 2. Aske of me and I will geue thee the gentiles for thine inheritance and the vttermost partes of the earth for thy possession and so S. Aug writeth that God promised to the seede of Abraham not the Romans but all the gentils and sealed it with an oathe by which promise it came to passe that manie nations not contayned vnder the Roman iurisdiction receiued the Gospell and were ioyned vnto the churche CHAMP There is no greater difficultie to conceiue howe the catholike churche may be called Roman then howe the christian churche which denomination began first at Antioch is called Catholike And if you would knowe he reason why it is denominated of Rome rather then of Antioche or Hierusalem it is because S. Peeter who was Bishoppe of Rome receiued promise of our Sauiour Christ that his churche shoulde be builte vppon him as vppon a firme rocke and that hell gates shoulde neuer preuaile against it Which promise our Sauiour Christ hauinge performed it is come to passe that the churche of Christe which was first called christian then Catholike is nowe called Roman and thus much for the name RomaÌ„ Nowe I woulde haue you marke that whatsoeuer you say in proofe of this attribute catholike you say in condemnation of your owne protestanticall assemblies which were neuer hearde of before Martin Luther no more then the Arrians were before Arrius and the rest of the sects and heresies before theire maisters and authours Which one argument had you but anie indifferencie ioyned with anie meane iudgment woulde be sufficient to make you detest the felloweshippe of such newe maisters PILK Besides the moderne Romane churche hath made a defection from that which the primatiue Roman church maintayned in so much that S. Paules Epistles written to the auncient RomaÌ„s may iustlie be called an antilogie of that Religion which nowe is professed in the cittie of Rome CHAMP Some substantiall proofe
present churche which as a liuelie and liuinge iudge and interpreter hath power to interprete aswell the coūsells and traditions when there is doubte of them as it hath to interprete the scripture which beeinge added they are not subiect to anie farther doubte or delusion PILK Concerninge Tradition Eusebius will informe you that in the Cittie of Rome the rule of Ecclesiasticall Tradition was vexed with diuers nouelties and as for councells howe shamefullie your Popes woulde haue corrupted that of Nice the fathers of the first councell of Carthage haue formerlie manifested vnto the worlde and howe vainlie at this day your diuines delude the sixt Canon of the same councell purposely made to geue equall honour vnto the Patriarche to patronize your Popes Monarchie euerie bleare eie doth easilie perceiue CHAMP Your intention by inculcatinge these ould and ouerworne obiections I meane these of councells haue been answered an hundred tymes being onlie to deturne your reader from the subiect in hand and to drawe your aduersarie into like confusion of matters with you I will passe ouer those wordes of yours expectinge your confutation of the answeres alreadie to these same obiections before I will trouble my selfe to answere them againe before the first answeres be confuted by you That which Eusebius saith of vexinge traditions is true marry it was by such as your selfe and your fellowe hetetikes whose endeuours were frustrated by the catholike pastours see him reader and marueil at Mr. Pilkintons witt in citing him PILK Nowe when you cannot fullie prooue your faith out of scriptures you fall presentlie to wounde them with your slaunderous accusation that they are not able to conuince heretickes noe not such seelie ones as Legat not perceuinge how euenlie you iumpe with ould heretikes who whē they are conuinced by the scriptures fall to rayle on them as thoughe they were not right nor sufficientlie authorized but various and not full to finde the truth by them without tradition CHAMP Why doe you not I pray your answere the instance made in Legat ◠knowe well the reason you can as well answere it as you can beate downe Paules steeple with your fiste You call it in this same section a sheepishe obiection but that is onlie a caluishe solution And that heretikes cannott be conuinced out of scripture onlie hearken I pray you to aunciēt Tertullian who was better conuersant in these conflictes then either of vs yea then both of vs putt together thus he writeth The conflict with the scriptures profiteth nothinge but to turne either the stomacke or the braine For which he geueth this reason This herefie receiueth not certaine scriptures as the protestants for examples and if it receiue anie it araweth them to her purpose by additions and detractions And if it receiue the whole scriptures it depraueth them by diuers expositions Whereas the adulterous sence doth no lesse destroy the truth then doth the corrupted letter What wilt thou gaine then that arte cunninge in scriptures when that which thou defendest is denyed and that which thou denyest is defended Thou shalt indeede loose nothinge but thy voyce with contēdinge nor shalt thou gayne anie thinge but choler hearinge blasphemies The heretikes will say that we adulterate the scripture and bringe lyinge expositions and that they defende the truth Therefore must not appeale be made to the scriptures nor must the conflict be in them by which the victorie is either vncertayne or little certaine or none att all But lett vs nowe goe forwarde PILK But lett this be the first issue betwixt you and me whether scriptures onlie will fullie conuince heretikes wherein the negatiue is yours the affirmatiue mine and thus I double it out of the worde of God That which doth perfect the man of God to euerie good worke enableth him fullie to conuince heretikes for this is one mayne dutie of his callinge to conuince contradictours But the scriptures doe perfect the man of God to euerie good worke and particularlie S. Paule expresseth conuiction therefore they teach him fullie to conuince heretickes CHAMP I verie willinglie accept of your chalenge and am content to ioyne issue with you in this point desiringe no other iudge or vmpire of the victorie then your owne patron of Canterburie To your double therefore out of the worde of God I answere that the minor or seconde proposition of your argument is not out of scripture nor in it selfe true For the place of scripture which you ayme at is this All scripture inspired by God i◠profitable to teache to argue to correct to instruct in iustice that the man of God may be perfect instructed to euerie good worke Out of which place if you woulde conclude anie thinge by lawfull argument you shoulde argue thus That which is profitable to teach to argue to correct and instruct in iustice that the man of God may be perfect instructed in euerie good worke is sufficient so fullie to conuince heretikes of theire errour that they cannot delude it by false interpretation But all scripture inspired by God is such therefore all scripture inspired by God is sufficient so fullie to conuince heretikes that they cannot delude it by false interpretation The conclusion of which argument is the issue betwixt you and me The medium you vse to prooue it are the wordes of the Apostle which if you had putt downe simplie and whollie and not dubled as you say by curtayllinge them you would easilie haue seene if you see anie thinge that they are as farr from cōcludinge your affirmatiue as the argument followinge is from concludinge that which is put in the conclusion thereof Marke it I pray you and learne to argue better especiallie when you dispute for the victorie in a matter of such moment as this is That which is proffitable to nourishe to exhilarate and conforte or strengthen man that he may be able to exercise all man-like functions and actions is sufficient to defende him from his enemies and to vanquishe them Butt al wines are such Therfore al wines are sufficiēt to defende a mā frō his enimies to vanquishe thē By which argumēt which is the verie same in forme that yours shoulde be if you would haue formed it out of the Apostles wordes you see if you onlie are not blinde how ridiculouslie you double your affirmatiue out of gods worde Besides your argument is for diuers other respects either foolishe or fraudubent For S. Paule saith that all scripture that is euerie parte parcell of scripture is profitable to teache c yet you will not I hope say that euerie parcell of scripture is sufficient to conuince heretikes Agayne the Apostle speaketh manifestlie of such scriptures as Timothy had learned from his childehoode which without controuersie were onlie the scriptures of the old testament of which you will not affirme that they are sufficient to conuince all heretikes And so you see the liuinge wherewith you woulde double your affirmatiue to be so
disputer to beare the name of a doctour But S. Athanasius saith they fledd to the fathers seinge they coulde not preuaile by the scriptures Be it that S. Athan saith soe it is euident thereby that they alleaged scriptures contrarie to your assertion S. HieroÌ„ whom you drawe in by the eares saith as little to your purpose putt case you cite him truelie which I will not stande to examine For he saith no such thinge as that heretikes alleage not scriptures which you shoulde prooue but because you imagine his sayinge to make against traditions which if you had but one sparke of iudgment you would see howe vnseasonablie you impugne here I will answere it by puttinge you in minde that catholickes pretend not traditions without the testimonie of scriptures butt accordinge to the expresse testimonie thereof which you knowe and therefore is your impertinencie in alleaginge S. Hierome his wordes lesse excusable PILK What then thoughe Satan the Father and heretikes his sonnes abuse the letter of the scripture as you papists nowe doe yett with noe other weapon did Christ conquer him and them to teach vs that they onlie are the sworde of the spirit wherewith the deuill and all his adherents must be putt to flight but this you say is the sence and not the wordes onlie CHAMP Whether you or we abuse the scriptures as Satan did is in controuersie betweene vs and must necessarilie light vppon one side In the meane tyme whilst it appeare whether you or we be the scholers of Satan hence it is clearlie manifest that it is not enoughe for the proofe of anie doctrine to cite scripture for it which is my position against which you haue hitherto wilfullie wrangled And if you will stande to that ignoraunt paradox of yours that with no other weapon then the scriptures our Sauiour conquered the deuill and his children and that to teach vs that they onlie are the sworde of the spiritt where with they are to be putt to flight blott out of your Bibles the whole newe testament as you haue donne manie bookes of the ould for no worde of the newe testament was written diuers yeeres after our Sauiours Ascention into heauen and triumphe ouer the deuill and hel Woulde you haue me conclud this in forme of argument against you Here take it That scripture onlie is the sworde of the spirit which our Sauiour vsed But he vsed noe other scripture then the oulde testament ergo the ould testament oulie is the sworde of the spirit The maior is your owne the minor is euident the conclusion followeth directlie vpon the premisses Whence clearlie followeth this consequence Therefore the newe testament is not necessarie So that you see howe well you argue for the authoritie and dignitie of holy scripture But qui ambulat in tenebris nescit quo vaait PILK Madd Orestes would sweare he were out of his witts that could imagine otherwise For the the Gospell lyeth not in the wordes of the scripture but in the sence not in the rinde but in the pith not in the leaues of speeches but in the grounde of reason saith the same Father Wherein it followeth that gods worde foolishlie vnderstoode is not his worde which consisteth not in reading but in vnderstandinge and that adulteratinge the sence hurteth the truth as much as marringe the sentences of scriptures The sence then is the GarlaÌ„d we striue for which whether it be with you or vs you refer your selfe vnto the incorrupte testimonie of some holy Father that liued a thousand yeres a goe as if you meant to stand to the Fathers verdict whome your good maysters as scornefullie contemne as if they were schoole boyes when once they contradict the sence of the Roman church CHAMP I willinglie ioyne with you in this issue also that the sence of the scripture is the garlande you ought to striue for And if you dare the Fathers shall be the iudge of our plea but you dare as well eat hoat coales as stande to theire verdict PILK When we prooue out of Tertullian that liued 200. yeeres after Christ that Pope Zepherinus fauored the heresie of Montanus contrarie to your newe Roman Sence that Popes cannot erre we must not at all beleeue Tertullian in this point saith Bellarmine For he was a Montanist yea an euill spiritt so carried him that of euill being made worse and worse and most filthie he spued out most horrible blasphemies saith Barronius CHAMP What is this to the purpose of tryinge the true sence of the scriptures haue you so quicklie forgotten the thinge in question But to followe you in your extrauagances least you should thinke your obiection not to be answered Tell me I pray you in the small honestie of a minister whether you geue more creditt to Tertullian nowe a confessed heretike in a matter aduantageous to his errour then to all antiquitie testifyinge Zepherin Pope to haue been an holy Sainte and Martyr Are you so maliuouslie bent against the Pope and sea of Rome that to fix some fault vppon them you will put Saincts out of heauen make martyrs heretikes and that for the bare testimonie of a professed heretike lett the iudicious reader iudge what spiritt you are guided by PILK When we vrge S. Aug. to prooue that in the state of corruption there is no free will in man to that which is good contrarie to your sence Stapleton saith he went beyond all good measure in his dispute against Pelagius with like vsage doe they entertaine the rest when they crosse theire grosse errours CHAMP This obiection is as impertinent as the precedent For be it that the Fathers haue some harde speeches which heretikes abuse to theire owne hurte what maruell sith the holy ghost testifieth the like of the holy scriptures themselues Stapleton speaketh neuer a worde directlie of free will in that chapter nor yett of S. Aug. opinion thereof But hauinge shewed S. August to haue taught that gentills and others not iustified doe not sinne in all theire workes obiecteth to himselfe certaine places out of S Aug. where disputinge against Iulian the Pelagian he seemeth to incline to the contrarie opinion Which hauinge answered and explicated by other of his sayinges in the same places he concludeth Sed vtâ—unque in hac disputatione moaum forâ—asse excesserit Augustinus vt propter aduersarij putuiantissiman impudentiam etiam peccata esse diceret quae vere perfecte bona non essent tamen nusquan alibi id dixisse aut scripsisse legitur vbi sine aduersario non agonostice sed dogmatice scripsit Which are the wordes of StapletoÌ„ you carpe att but why if you consider them a little better you will not easilie shewe PILK For howesoeuer your councell of Trent make a semblance to decree that the scriptures must be interpreted accordinge to the sence which the churche holdeth or the vnanimous consent of the fathers approoueth yett it is plaine that as when Caesar and Bibulus were consulls together whatsoeuer
expressed in the holy scripture Or it is sufficient beinge lefte in the hands of the church to expound and interprete it but it is not sufficient for euerie one to picke his faith and beleefe out of And consequentlie another rule to witt the churches authoritie in vnderstandinge and interpretinge the scriptures is necessarie as the same father teacheth in these expresse wordes Some man may peraduenture aske for asmuch as the Canon of the scriptures is persect and in all pointes verie sufficient in it selfe what neede is there to ioyne thereunto the authoritie of the Ecclesiasticall vnderstandinge for this cause surelie for that all take not the holy scriptures in the same sence because of the deepnes thereof but the sayinges thereof some interprete one way and some another so that there may almoste as manie sences be picked out of it as there be men For Nouatian doth expounde it one way and Sabellius another way otherwise Arrius Eunomius Macedonius otherwayes Photinus Apollinaris Priscillianus otherwayes Iouinian Pelagius Celestus lastlie otherwayes Victorius Thus farr he who as you see expresselie admitteth as necessarie the rule of Ecclesiasticall authoritie besides the scriptures which is that we contend aboute PILK This clearelie is S. Aug. doctrine and the rest of the fathers not your crooked inference that the authority of the churche is a more vniuersall and more auncient rule then the scriptures for where hath he anie word to this purpose I woulde not haue beleeued the gospel except the authoritie of the churche had moued me are too weake to inserr any such like conclusion thoughe we admitte them in your corrupt translation For it is plaine he speaketh not these wordes of the present tyme when he was a Bishoppe as you reade them but of the tyme past when he was a Manichy Beinge a Catholicke a Bishoppe when he writte that booke he had farr other motiues to beleeue the Gospell then the authority of the church which here he alone nameth Take one place for a thousande I take my conscience to witnes Honoratus and God that dwelleth in pure myndes that I thinke nothinge more wise chaste religious then all these scriptures which the catholicke churche retayneth vnder the name of the olde and new testament I knowe thou wounderest but I cannot dâ—ssemble I was otherwise persuaded Howsoeuer then beinge an hereticke he thought of the scriptures yett nowe become a catholicke he beleeued them for that prudence chastitie pietie which he founde in them CHAMP Nowe lett vs see howe you will quitte your selfe of the authority of S. Aug sett downe in the Manuall you say it is too weake to serue our turne because he spake not of the present tyme when he was Byshoppe and wrote that booke but when he was a Manichie A poore and silie shifte God wotte lett his owne wordes witnes what his meaning is Ego EuaÌ„gelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesi 〈…〉 s coÌ„moueret I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the churches authority did moue me He saith not noÌ„ credidissem nisi commoâ—isset I had not beleeued had not the authoritie moued me as you corruptlie translate or if I doe produce your coppie for myne hath crederem commoueret which if you will translate had beleeued and had moued you shall be putt to your Accidence againe But beit that he spake of himselfe as being a Manichie which is as true as that he was a Manichie when he wrote this this is so far from fauoringe your cause that it maketh it much worse For if the churches authoritie had force to moue an hereticke to beleeue the gospell what man not depriued of common sence will denie but it hath at least the like force with a catholike But you say that S. Aug beinge a catholike had other motiues to beleeue the scriptures then the authoritie of the churche beit so what will you inferre thereof for your purpose or against me nothinge att all yea the testimonie alleaged by you out of him doth sufficiently witnes that the authority of the church did still moue him to beleeue the scriptures seeing he restraineth himselfe to those scriptures which the catholike churche receiueth and retayneth PILK Againe if by the churche you meane the present church and by the present church her rulers and guides as your consorts vsuallie doe then is it most absurde to thinke that S. August and the rest of the Bishoppes of his tyme beleeued the gospell for the authoritie of the churche for that had been for theire owne authoritie and so they had beleeued the gospell for themselues CHAMP If you hadd but one dramme of good Logicke you could not but haue seene your argument to haue been most idle and not beseeminge a doctor of diuinitie For no nouice in logicke but knoweth that an argument taken from all the partes together or collectiue to euerie one in seuerall or particular concludeth nothinge affirmatiuelie Such an one is yours beinge this is substance S. Aug. and the rest of the bishoppes beleeue the Gospell for the authoritie of the present churche but S. Aug. and the rest of the Bishoppes are the present churche ergo they beleeue the Gospell for themselues Or if you doe not yett see your owne seelines in this argument compare it with this and peraduenture you will espie it Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers of the churche of Englande beleeue the 39. articles to be good and lawfull for the authoritie of the churche of Englande But Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers are the churche of Englande ergo they beleeue the 39. articles for themselues PILK But if diuers papists be not deceiued S. Aug. meaneth not the present churche but the churche which was in the Apostles tyme that sawe Christs miracles and heard his preachinge and so this speach of S. August helpeth you nothinge excepte you canne prooue that the present churche hath the same authoritie with the Apostles which your owne Driedo flathe denieth Ecclesia primitiua propter collegium Apostolorum ad tradendam nouam nostrae fidei Doctrinam maioris erat gratiae maiorisque authoritatis quam Ecclesia quae nunc est Accordinge to the Doctrine of S. August and Hierome CHAMP Thoughe S. Aug. shoulde meane the churche in the Apostles tyme excludinge the present churche which is false yett woulde this ouerthrowe your cause For whence coulde he receiue the testimonie of that churche but by authoritie of the churches present and precedent And yett this serueth sufficientlie my turne to prooue some other rule of beleefe besides and before the scriptures which is our controuersie here That which you alleage out of our Driedo doth not prooue the present churche to be lesse infallible in her iudgmeÌ„t in matters of faith then the churche in the Apostles tyme neither doth anie catholicke say so For seinge it is gouerned by the same spirit of truth which was promised shoulde remaine with her for euer shee cannot be
more subiect to errour nowe then shee was at that tyme. Therfore that which Driedo saith is that the primatiue churche by reason of the colledge of the Apostles had power to deliuer newe doctrine of faith which the succedinge church hath not but hath infallible authoritie to teache that faith which shee receaued of the Apostles And this you might easilie haue seene to haue been Driedoes Doctrine if you had taken but anie ordinarie heede to his wordes PILK Neuertheles to passe by this to graunte that S. Augustin a Catholicke and a Bishoppe woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him is euerie motiue to beleeue a rule of faith Nothinge lesse For the rule is that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued which is not into the authoritie of the churche as your best diuines teach but into the scriptures CHAMP You might well haue past by all this indeede and also that which followeth had you not rather chosen to fil your paper with your impertinencies to the publishinge of your owne small iudgement If you take the rule of â—aith so strictlie as it contayneth onlie that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued you will make onlie God reuelinge his verities to be the rule of faith and then you must exclude not onlie the churche but the scriptures also But if you take it for a true ground of beleefe then that testimonie which so moueth to faith as it ingendreth faith in vs may trulie be sayde to be a rule of faith such a motiue S. Aug saith the churche is PILK And there vppon Cameracensis speakinge of this place of S. Aug saith that it proueth not that he beleeued the gospell thoroughe the churches authoritie as by a Theologicall principle whereby the gospell might be prooued true but onlie as by a cause mouinge him to creditt it as if he shoulde say I woulde not beleeue the gospell vnles the holynes of the churche or Christes miracles did moue me In which sayinge thoughe some cause of his beleeuinge be assigned yet no former principle is touched whose creditt might be the cause why the gospell shoulde be beleeued CHAMP It appeareth well you vnderstande not what Cameracensis saith or else that you care not what you say so that you say somethinge He saith the scriptures are not prooued by the authority of the churche as by a Theologicall principle or argument ab intrinseco but as a motiue from authority or ab extrinseco which is that all men say and which I only desire to prooue by S. Augustines testimonie For if the church be a motiue to beleeue the scriptures it must necessarilie be before the scriptures and consequentlie be a more vniuersall rule cause or motiue of faith and beleefe then the scriptures PILK Bellarmine saith that S. Aug. speaketh these wordes of the authoritie of the churche as of a cause propoundinge what is to be beleeued and not of the foundation of faith But the proposition of the churche is not the rule and resolution of faith but onlie a condition requisite of beleeuinge as Valent. teacheth in 22. tom 3. de obiecto fidei CHAMP It is a most irkesome and importunate thinge to haue to doe with with an ignorant aduersarie that knoweth not what he shoulde either prooue or denie Such an one you shewe your selfe to be For if you take from the scripture which you trulie teache to be a rule of our faith the authoritie to propose manifest and testify articles of beleefe see howe you will make it a rule of faith Seeinge therefore you geue to the churche these thinges without which the scriptures are not a rule of faith why should you deny it to be also a rule of faith But the churche you say is not the foundation or resolution of faith I speake in your owne phrase thoughe improperlie that you may vnderstande and therfore is it not anie rule thereof If this argument conclude anie thinge it will also prooue the scriptures to be noe rule of faith For it is neither foundation nor resolution of faith if you vnderstande the first and chiefe foundation or last resolution as I tould you before vnles you will make it to be God himselfe But if you take foundation for that which doth grounde our faith in a certaine and sure kinde of infallible testimonie in which sence al men speake that knowe what they speake theÌ„ are both the scriptures and the churche also foundations and groundes of our faith PILK And surelie if S. Aug had meant that the authoritie of the churche had beene this rule which is your inference he had excluded all other rules For he that saith I would not beleeue excepte the authoritie of the churche moued me establisheth one cause remoueth the rest But this none of you dare accorde vnto is as farr from S. Aug. meaninge as your next wordes are from truth If therefore the authoritie of the churche be a sufficient motiue for a motiue it is which none of vs euer denyed but that it is a sufficient motiue neither canne you prooue nor yett S. August anie where auoucheth CHAMP S. Aug. wordes which are to be beleeued before your bare negation are most cleare that without the testimonie or authoritie of the churche he hadd not beleeued the Gospell and consequentlie that the churche was cause rule and motiue of his beleefe not in that degree that God is the rule or foundation of our faith for so we shoulde make S Aug. as sencelesse as Mr. Pilkinton but in the like kinde or degree that the scriptures are but yett before the scriptures because he beleeued them for the churches authoritie And therefore you see S. Aug. to say that which the Manuall saith that there is some other rule of faith before and more vniuersall then the scriptures seeinge that for it and by it the scriptures are beleeued MANVALL SECTIO 8. The second thinge to be noted is that they which beleeue nothinge but that which is prooued by scripture are euidentlie conuinced to beleeue nothinge at all For they that cannott beleeue that there is an holy scripture or what bookes be holy scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture for it is euident that before they beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture they must first beleeue that there is a holy scripture and what bookes are scripture But they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannot beleeue that there is a scripture nor what bookes are holy scripture For neither of these two canne be prooued by holy scripture Therefore they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge att all This argument is a playne demonstration and compelleth the protestants either to confesse that they haue noe faith att all or to acknowledge this their position to witt that nothinge ought or can rightlie be beleeued but that which may be prooued
false that full proofe cannot be made of all articles of faith out of scripture In the former sence there is not anie protestant that hath taught that the scriptures expresselie contayne all articles of faith and this you papists knowe For Eckius reprooueth the Lutherans for that they will haue nothinge beleeued but which is expresse scripture or can be prooued out of scriptures So that your owne side perceiue we beleeue thinges that are not expresselie sett downe in scriptures but nothinge which hath not a iust proofe out of it CHAMP The cloude is in your owne brayne and not in my position which is neither darke not doubtfull but to you who perceiuinge it to presse and pinch woulde gladlie finde some doubtefullnes therein For if you had not been either blinde or blinde foulded you would haue seen that the position denyeth full proofe of all articles of faith out of scriptures in the same sence and meaninge that you professe to mayntaine the affirmatiue and not onlie the expresse contayninge them in so manie wordes or sillabels Manuall proofe of the Catholike position The articles which protestants beleeue to be of faith as well as Catholikes and yett are not contayned expresselie in holy scripture are manie but we will geue instance but onlie in a fewe First that there are three distinct persons and one only substance or essence in God Secondlie that the second and thirde persons are of the same substance and of equall glorie with the first Thirdelie that the thirde person proceedeth from the second and from the first Fowerthly that there are two distinct and compleat natures in our Sauiour Christ and but one onlie person Fiftlie that there are in him two willes and two operations to witt of God and man aboute all which haue been diuerse heresies as is wel known to the learned And thoughe all these articles haue most true grounde and proofe in holy scriptures yett are they not so expressely contayned therein as they may be fullie prooued by them alone One example shall serue for al to prooue the sonne of God to be consubstantial or of one substance with the father the catholikes doe alleage and trulie this testimonie I and the father are one yett because there are moe means of being one theÌ„ in substaÌ„ce as namelie to be of one wil desire affectioÌ„ of which sorte of vnitie speciallie the Arrians did expound this place alleaginge for themselues that testimonie I pray that they al may be one as thou father in me and I in thee that they also in vs may be one Which cannot be vnderstoode of vnitie in substance Therefore this testimonie without the interpretation of the churche which is the piller of truth doth not fullie prooue the father and the sonne to be one in substance The like may be sayd of the other articles here mentioned PILK What a gap you opeÌ„ to Gentilisme Iudaisme and Heresie when you deny the maine groundes of christianitie to haue a full proofe from the scriptures but require the helpe of tradition and authoritie of the churche as if the authoritie of the church woulde preuaile with them with whom the scriptures will not CHAMP Are you a doctor in diuinitie and thinke a greate gappe to be opened to Gentilisme and Iudaiâ—me by denyinge the mistery of the blessed Trinitie to be fullie and clearlie prooued out of the scriptures only would you if you had to doe with them goe aboute to prooue that mysterie either out of the newe testament to the Iewes or out of the whole Bible to the Gentiles It would well become your iudgment indeede and suteth well with the rest of your learned discourses But whatsoeuer you would doe in that case I knowe that noe man indued with one dramme of witt would thinke that kinde of proofe to haue anie force with them that receiue not the scriptures thoughe they were as cleare and expresse as you coulde desire them to be And a for the gap opened hereby to heresie Lett the worlde that seeth so manie sects of heresies spronge out of one Luther iudge whether your paradoxe of the sufficiencie of onlie scripture without respecte to the churches authoritie and iudgment hath not brought them forth and begotten them Lett the example of Legatt testifie whether your position or myne open the gap wider to heresie Finallie lett all the heresies in the worlde witnes whether the contemninge of the churches authoritie in expoundinge of holy scriptures hath not been the mother of them all Take away therefore your paradoxe of the fulnes of scriptures and put my position of the necessitie of the churches iudgment in declaringe the true sence and meaninge of the scriptures in practise and the gap to all heresie will quicklie be so fast shutt that shee will neuer more appeare in the worlde PILK But in defence of that royall and holy faith we are verie confident that all these articles expressed by you haue both a true and full proofe from them The trinitie of persons in the vnitie of one essence is plainlie taught otherwise what man or Angell durst prie into that maiestie lest he were oppressed of glorie There be three that beare witnes in heauen Father worde holy ghost and these three are one saith S. Iohn And Mathewe 28. Baptise them in the name of the Father the sonne and the holy Ghost Which places as they prooue the vnitie of the essence in trinitie of persons so likewise doe they theire comon glorie because to be and to be glorious in the God heade is all one as S. Aug. argueth The procession of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is fullie taught Io. 15. 26. where he is termed the Spiritt of truth that proceedeth froÌ„ the father which verie worde S. Ioh. vseth of the to w-edged sworde proceedinge out of the mouth of Christe which is nothinge but the spiritt of his lippes wherwith he shall striks the wicked as Esay prophesieth cap. 11. 4. And with the breath of his lippes he shall slay the wicked And to shewe his procession as well from the sonne as from the father Christe breathed vppon his disciples and sayde Receiue the holie ghost and for that he is called the spiritt of the sonne Gal. 4. 6. And because yee are sonnes God hath sent forth the spirit of his sonne into your hearts which crieth Abba father That there be two destinct natures in Christ one onlie person Esay prophesied cap. 1. 14. Behoulde the Virgin shall conceiue and beare a sonne and shee shall call his name Immanuell And like Ierc. cap. 23. 6. In his dayes Iuda shall be saued and Israell shall will safelie and this is the name whereby they shall cal him the lorde our righteousnes which S. Iohn fulfilled Io. 1. 14. And the worde was made flesh and dwelte amonge vs and we sawe the glorie thereof as the glorie of the onlie begotten of the father full of grace and truth of
which two distinct natures there be two wills and two operations as S. Luke sheweth not my will but thy will be doÌ„ne For he that hath two perfect natures must needes haue theire natural properties operations but to wil worke are natural proprieties operations followinge both natures in Christ therfore he had two willes and two operations All which places are vrged by the auncient Fathers and late writers protestants and papists to confirme these seuerall points in so much that you are forced to graunt that they haue a true proofe from the holy scriptures And then I may say as S. August saith to Maximian the Arrian Si vox ista vera est quaestio illa finita est But you papists haue nimbler witts then the fathers for you are not content with truth but you must haue full proofe as thoughe that proofe which to a man is true were not full For there can be noe fuller proofe then that which doth conuince and satisfie the vnderstandinge but a true proofe doth so For what is truth but adaequatio rei intellectus And yett if there be anie difference betweene true full these articles are fullie concluded out of the scripture For beinge articles of the Apostolicke creede they are plainlie sett downe as Bellarmine confesseth out of S. Aug. And some of them questioned by the Arrians as the consubstantialitie of the sonne which in the next place you except against he saith that of these questions which then were moued clarissima extabant in scripturis testimonia quae sine dubio antepÌ„onenda sunt omnibus conciliorum testimonijs These thinges then that haue most cleare testimonies out of scriptures and to be preferred before all testimonies of councells haue a full proofe from them but such are some of these articles yett you proceede to fight against scriptures and wringe from Christians one of the strongest Bulwarkes they haue against Arrians I and the consubstantialitie of the sonne because the Arrians interpreted it of vnitie of concorde and will But if the mist of poperie had not blinded your eyes you might easily haue seen vnanswerable arguments out of the text to prooue the sonne consubstantiall to the father and so to be vnderstoode of the vnitie of substance For the Iewes require him to tell them plainely whether he be that Christ he answereth directlie he is there fore the naturall and consubstantiall sonne of God as he prooueth Matt. 22. 45. out of the Psalme 100. If then Dauid called him Lorde howe is he then his sonne Secondlie he that geueth eternall life to his sheepe so that none can take them out of his hande is of the same power and consequentlie of the same nature with God For what is it to be God but to be of the highest and greatest power then which none greater but the sonne doth soe ver 28. 29. And I geue vnto them eternall life and they shall neuer perish neither shall anie plucke them out of myne hande Thirdlie the Iewes tooke vppe stones to stone him as a blasphemer as one that made himselfe God this cause they sett downe in plaine termes verse 33. Because thou makest thy selfe God beinge man but it is no blasphemie to be of the like will desire and affection with God playne therefore it is by Christs argument that he did preache God so to be his Father as the Iewes vnderstoode he would haue himselfe the naturall sonne of God See nowe excepte you be blinder theÌ„ the Iewes how plentifullie this scripture prooueth the consubstaÌ„tialitie of the sonne and as for the place of Io. 17. it helpeth not the Arrians at all as S. Aug. sheweth to Pascentius the Arrian For that wheresoeuer the scripture speaketh of two that are one as in this place they are euer of one substance And therfore he chargeth both Maximianus theire Bishoppe and Pascentius a noble man of theire opinion to trauers the scriptures if anie where they coulde shew two sayde to be one that are not one in substance But lett this be graunted that I and the Father are one prooueth onlie vnitie of will not of substance is there not an armie of scriptures besides this to prooue the sonne of the same substance that we neede not call in the authoritie of the churche CHAMP You haue bestowed all this labour moste idlie goinge aboute to prooue to me that these articles are true and to haue true grounde in the scriptures which no catholicke euer doubted of That which you shoulde haue laboured in if you woulde haue spoken to the purpose is that these articles haue so full proofe out of scriptures onlie that an heretike might be conuinced thereby without iudgment and interpretation of the churche vppon the same places Which is euidently prooued to be false by the many and diuerse heresies which haue been maintayned against all these articles For the authors thereof hereticallie refusinge the vnderstandinge of the church vppon those places of scriptures and diuers others as you also doe in the places condemninge your heresies and followinge wilfullie theire owne iudgment therein as you in like manner doe coulde not be conuinced of theire errours but interpreted these places and all others brought against them in such sorte as they made not against them att all And as for the particuler authorities proouing diuers of these articles consulte with your Grand Maister Caluin and see what weight he putâ—eth in them for the proofe of the sayde misteries Or if you like not to turne his bookes read the litle booke written by Egidius Hunnius a professed protestant intituled Caluinus Iudaizans and you shall see whether he was conuinced in these articles by all the passages of holy scripture alleaged for that purpose Yett would I not haue you to thinke that I approoue his wicked doctrine herein which I detest as most hereticall but onlie produce him as an irreprooueable instance of my position Therefore all the longe lose and imperfect discourse which you haue made in this paragraffe wherein are manie paralogismes and impertinencies so farr as it prooueth anie thinge prooueth Caluin to haue been a wicked miscreant but prooueth nothinge against my position which denieth not these verities to haue most true ground in holy scripture according to the true sence and meaninge thereof but not in such sorte as the euidence thereof cannot be auoyded by an heretike And you your selfe that wrangle so much heere against all experience as well of the present as all precedent ages will not acknowledge the catholike positions nowe in controuersie prooued by more or at least by as plaine and expresse scripture as these are to be sufficientlie prooued So that I neede seeke no further confirmation of my position then the experience of your owne peruersitie PILK Yea to stoppe your mouth I add that S. Aug. doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the church in his polemicall bookes against the Arrian Bishopp in two seuerall councells the one of Nice the
other of Arriminum the former of which had ratified the consubstantialitie of the sonne and the other reuoked it and tyeth both himselfe and the Arrian onlie to the scriptures as knowinge this pointe of faith fullie to be prooued of them CHAMP Your mouth meriteth well the stopinge that doth so farr and fowlie ouerflowe as to say that S. Aug doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the churche What haue you so soone forgott that he protested he would not beleeue the go pell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him you haue be like some as euident and expresse wordes of his exception against the churche authoritie as this is for it or else your assertion is moste shameles let vs here I pray you what he saith PILK Neither ought I saith S. Aug. to vrge the councell of Nice nor thou that of Arriminum I am not tyed to the authoritie of the one nor thou of the other but out of the scriptures that are not parties but common witnesses vnto vs both lett matter to matter cause to cause reason to reason be indifferentlie opposed CHAMP Howe willinglie you deceiue your selfe and wilfullie labour to deceiue others I must needes thinke that it is malice or peruersitie not ignorance that maketh you abuse this place of S Aug who hauing sayde that the worde â—omoâ—sion beinge by the catholike fathers in the councell of Nice by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie established was after in the councell of Arriminum vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius by the fraude of a fewe disliked but afterwardes acknowledged he cometh to say But nowe neither I ought to vse the authoritie of the councell of Nice nor thou of the counsell of Arriminum but such testimonie of scripture as are common to both Where S. Aug. is as farr from exceptinge against the authoritie of the church in the councell of Nice as I am nowe from exceptinge against the authoritie of the councell of Trent in that I doe not vse it against you but am content to deale with you by the scriptures which beinge receiued by vs both are irreproueable witnesses In this therefore noe other sorte doth S. August omitte to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Nice against his aduersarie Maximian the Arrian and tye himselfe to the scriptures then I doe nowe tye my selfe to the scriptures omitting to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Trent against you a protestant And tell me I pray you did S. Aug thinke you esteeme lesse of the Nicen councel then you doe you wil not say it I suppose And doe not you geue vnto it that authority to define matters of faith against heretikes and admitte of the doctrine thereof as orthodoxe and catholike and which ought to be receiued of all christians you will not deny it Why therefore doe you say S. August euidentlie excepteth against the authoritie of the churche because he woulde not tye his aduersarie in that dispute to the authoritie of the Nicene councell which he professeth to haue been decreed by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie But you delight not onlie to err your selfe but also to drawe others into errour with you PILK Where then is your inference that this scripture without the interpretation of the churche doth not fullie prooue the Father and the sonne to be one in substance as if the scriptures before the churches interpretation prooue onlie probable after her interpretation fullie This I gather to be your meaninge because Bellarmine affirmeth from whose haruest you haue gathered these gleaninges that the scriptures expressed by a councell doe firmelie and certainlie prooue that which before they did not firmelie prooue And of S. August he saith that he bringeth certaine coniectures out of scriptures which after the definition of a councell and triall of written traditions haue some force to confirme truth which of themselues ar not sufficient CHAMP My inference standeth good nor is it anie way impeached by S. Aug euen in this place by you alleaged as alreadie appeareth Besides in his booke de vera religione cap. 1. he hath these expresse wordes who is not starke madd and easilie vnderstandeth not that the exposition of scriptures is to be sought from them who professe themselues teachers of the same He meaneth the pastours and doctours of the churche And concerninge this place Ego pater vnum sumus read S. Athanasius his Epistle ad Episcopos Arrianos and see howe they were conuinced with it or if you will not looke so farr make a litle inquirie of Legats answere vnto it That which you say of the scriptures before and after the churches interpretation and likwise of S. Aug out of Bellarmine though I find noe such thinge in the place of Bellar. by you cited in the catholicke sence is true That is the scriptures before the iudgment of the church of the true sence and meaninge thereof make noe full proofe vnto vs of the articles of our faith Not because they receiue anie truthe or force in respect of themselues from the churche they being the infallible worde of God but because they beinge capable of diuerse sences and subiect to be vnderstoode diuerslie as you your selfe will not denie of these fewe and plaine wordes hoc est corpus meum without some authoritie to interprete them the true sence and meaninge of them cannot assuredlie be knowne vnto vs. And therefore hath God placed in his church pastours and doctors to deliuer vnto his people the true meaning of his worde and hath promised to be with them alwayes that to heare them is to heare himselfe PILK Lett this be marked For when we say that the scriptures doe prooue fullie articles of faith we take not away subordinate meanes whereby we may see and learne the fulnes of the scriptures but we exclude all outwarde and aduentitious authoritie to supplie the supposed weaknes in them and to adde strength and firmenes vnto them CHAMP Necessitie and the verie euidence of truth forceth you to confesse some meanes to learne the true ence and meaninge of the scriptures but your owne peruersitie and obstinacy will not permitte you to speak plainlie What doe you I play vnderstande by subordinate meanes which you say you exclude not and what doe you meane by aduentitious authoritie doe you meane the authoritie of the churche so your wordes followinge doe insinuate But shewe you as clearly out of the scripture the authoritie of the churche to be excluded as strange and aduentitious as we will shewe you that it is ratyfied established and commended vnto vs as an vnfallible guide and teacher of truth and then we will geue some creditt to your wordes but till then which will be neuer knowe yee that yee are prooued to contemne scripture and all other authoritie saue onlie your owne foolishe fancie which you make to be iudge of the holy scripture it selfe PILK Which strength the papists say
of tyme and place chaunge and alter as experience teacheth and not of matters of faith and beliefe which are euer the same without anie chaunge or alteration So that my position hath no other contrarietie with S. Aug. doctrine then heate hath with white or hearinge with seeinge PILK Vniuersalitie is a note to finde out the churche by Attende not those companies that goe the broade way they are manie and who cann number them and fewe goe in the narrowe way bringe forth thy weights weighe them see what a deale of chaffe for a littell corne CHAMP The farther you goe the more your ignoraunce or obstinacie doth appeare Are you not ashamed to make S. Aug. att oddes with the Apostles and Nycen Creede both which make vniuersalitie a note propriety of the true churche Besides are you so shallow brayned that you see not that S. Aug. speaketh here of baddly liuinge Christians which make not diuerse churches but are as Chaffe in the same baâ—ne or flore with the good Corne and not of misbeleeuing heretiks and Sectaries which make theire conuenticles a parte out of the churche and are neuer comparable to the true churche for vniuersalitie either of time or place Againe why doe you charge me in the page followinge with forgeinge this propositioÌ„ and fatheringe it vppon you â—he true churche of christe is not necessarilie Catholicke or vniuersall either in respect of place or tyme if you wil denie vniuersallity to be a note of the true churche You are so busied to make contrarieties betwixt my positions and the fathers doctrine that you runne into euident contradictions with your selfe and that within the space of a litle leafe of paper Either confesse the cause which you would defende to be so badd that it inforceth you to these absurdities or leaue the defence of it to some others of better skill and iudgment PILK The true churche of God is visible and apparant both to the saithfull beleeuers that are in it and also to heretickes and others that are out of it What churche nowe freelie serueth Christ For if it be godlie it is exposed to daungers if there be in anie place faithfull seruants of Christ as in all places there are manie they like vnto the great prophett Elias are secret and hide themselues in dennes and caues of the earth or wandringe vppe and downe remayne in the wildernes CHAMP If you woulde haue proued the truth of my position and the conformitie thereof with the doctrine of S. Athanasius you could not easilie haue donne it more effectuallie then by the testimonie you bringe out of him to prooue the contrarie so deuoyde of iudgment are you in all your sayinges For the churche that is exposed to daungers that is in all places and is persecuted is doubtles visible both to the faithfull and to the heretikes Yea those seruantes of Christ that like vnto Elias hide themselueâ— in dennes and remaine in the wildernes are not inuisible more then the catholickes nowe are in Englande whereof some parte is in prison others are in woodes and wildernesses as these were of whom S. Athanasius speaketh And if you could shewe such a visible churche of protestants before Martin Luther you would not vse the shamelesse shift of an inuisible churche whereunto you are driuen by meere necessitie PILK S. Peter was by our Sauiour Christe constituted supreame heade or soueraigne Bishop or pastour ouer his whole churche militant Christe gaue to all his Apostles equall power after his resurrection and sayde as my Father sent me so send I you receiue the holy ghoste whose sinnes you remitt they are remitted and a litle after the rest of the Apostles were the same that Peeter was endued with like fellowshippe both of honour and power CHAMP The equalitie of power to remitt sinnes or as the diuines terme it power of order of which equalitie S. Cyprian speaketh in all the Apostles doth stande well with the supremacie of the power of iurisdiction and gouernment which S. Cyprian geueth to S. Peeter Againe all the Apostles were of equall power in respect of the rest of the churche but not in respect of themselues For one head was chosen saith S. Hierome that the occasion of schisme might be taken away Where you are also to note that if you will still persist to vrge the equalitie of power in all the Apostles out of this testimonie of S. Cyprian you must also in like manner conclude the equalitie of honour in them all which notwithstandinge none of you dare to doe in regarde of so manie prerogatiues clearly geuen to S. Peter both in holy scriptures and by all antiquitie For which reason Spalatensis who hath strugled more peruersly against S. Peter his supremacie then anie other hereticke hitherto doth graunte vnto him a supremacie in diuerse respects thinkinge thereby as 〈◊〉 hee is malicious and peruerse by grauntinge him some parte of his due more easilie to depriue him of the rest Either cease therefore to impugne S. Peter his supreamacie out of this testimonie of S. Cyprian or if you will continue still to doe it take his whole wordes and sence and so shall you make him opposite to your selues PILK The Bishop of Rome is the lawfull and lineall successour of S. Peter in that charge and office which our Sauiour gaue vnto S. Peter ouer his churche militant Lett none of vs make him selfe bishop of bishops or by tyrannicall feare force his fellowes to necessitie of obedience seeinge euerie bishop hath free libertie and licence of his owne power and may not iudge another no more then another may iudge him but lett vs expect the iudgment of our Lord Iesus Christ who onlie and alone hath power to prefer vs in the gouernmeÌ„t of the churche and to iudge of our acts CHAMP I knowe not whether I shoulde ascribe it to ignorance or peruersitie that you produce this Testimonie as opposite to my position For no man of common sence that readeth in S. Aug. whence you cite it but will iudge it most impertinentlie alleadged for your purpose S. Cyprian there speakinge to his fellowe Bishopps of Affricke willinge them to giue their opinions of the matter proposed which was touchinge the Baptisme of heretickes professinge to keepe vnion and communion with them that should iudge other waies then he did And this without mention or intention to include in his speach the Bishope of Rome but directeth his wordes to the Bishops present for that particular matter which there he proposed vnto them PILK To holy Saincts and Angells in heauen is due more then ciuill honour and reuerence We honour the Angells with loue not seruice we builde them no temples c our religion teacheth vs not to worshippe dead men CAMP Your ignorance or peruersitie if not both lieth so open to all men that nothinge else appeareth hitherto in you If you had read S. Aug and but halfe
the end of the worlde it is founde true that S. Hierome saith that the scriptures containe all thinges Our diuines you say are bound in conscience to deliuer vnto you a catologue of our traditions seinge the Councell of Trent chargeth to geue equall credit to traditions and to holy Scripture But you are fowly deceaued For our diuines are bounde to receiue those traditions which the churche deliuereth vnto them and to desend them against your Cauills and not prescribe vnto the churche what traditions shee shoulde receiue This pride and arrogance pertaineth properlie to you Sectmaisters who preferr your owne priuate opinions before the iudgment of the whole churche which pride is the verie roote and cause of all heresie and errour that hath been in the worlde PILK Neuertheles the moste of these positions here by you fathered on it and I doubte not but you haue chosen the clearest are confessed by your owne side not to be of its kindred but bred and beleeued onlie vppon tradition S. Peters beinge at Rome the Popes Supremacie and succession prayer to Saincts reliques images purgatorie seuen Sacraments Exorcismes exufflations vnction in Baptisme reall presence transsubstantiation communion vnder one kinde sacrifice of Masse confirmation pennance orders extreame vnction matrimonie meritt of workes monkery with verie many more not expressed by you so that when you and your sellowes bringes the scriptures to patronise these points you fairlie imitate the ancient heretickes who knowinge theire opinions to haue no communion with the scriptures yett alleage them to seduce the simple sort CHAMP You are resolued I perceiue to be shameleslie impudent not blushinge to write that the moste of the points proued by me out of Scripture to be confessed by catholickes to be beleeued onlie vppon tradition and namelie all these sett downe in your wordes nowe related Why doe you deale so vnderboarde as not to sett downe the Authors wordes whose names you putt in the margent you feare the tryall and therefore you walke in obscuritie So manie falsities as you haue been taken with alreadie will make your reader warie enoughe to beleeue you noe further thē he seeth proofe of your sayinges And whether you and yours or limitate more fairlie the ancient heretikes in alleaginge Scriptures for theire errours to deceaue the simple it will appeare by the progresse of our dispute PILK And how can you persuade the worlde that you purpose in deede to make the scriptures the grounde of your faith which are branded by your men to be inconstant and mutable fitted to the tyme and variablie vnderstoode to be insufficient and imperfect and explicated by a councell they firmelie prooue that which before they did not that heerein they are ouertopped by traditions for that without traditions they firmelie subsist not but without them traditions haue theire strenghte that the authoritie they haue towardes men is deriued from the churche and without it they haue litle force which churche with you is the Pope Therefore for all your plea of the scriptures the Pope is the Atlas of your faith CHAMP That the scriptures are branded by anie of our mē to be inconstant mutable or fitted to the tyme is your owne slaunderous fiction or if it be not bring foorth your author and iustifie your selfe of so shameles a slaunder That the scriptures may be diuersslie vnderstoode if you denie who is he of all your fellowes that wil beleeue you Surelie noe man that is awake but will thinke rather that you dreamed when you wrote this then he will thinke that the scriptures cannot be vnderstoode diuerslie which beinge so euident by daylie experience that noe man in his senses can denie it who seeth not the necessitie of some iudgment to determine which is the true sence and meaninge thereof But that is the thinge you feare which rather then you will graunt you say that which a drunken man woulde be ashamed to haue sayde The insufficiencie of the scriptures to instruct the churche in al matters of faith stādeth right wel with theire sufficiencie to prooue those thinges which are contained expreslie in them And therefore your argument whereby you would conclude against me the insufficiencie of scriptures to prooue anie article of faith because I say it is not sufficient to prooue all the Articles of faith is more then childish and like vnto this The first chapter of Genesis is no◠sufficient to prooue all the articles of christian faith therefore it is not sufficient to prooue that God created the worlde Woulde you I pray you admitte this argument as good I thinke not thoughe I knowe you impertinent enoughe why therefore doe you goe aboute to conclude your purpose against your aduersarie by the like argument leaue for shame to make your selfe so ridiculous seinge you write your selfe so doctor of Diuinitie As for the worde imperfect I doe not knowe anie catholicke that doth vse it yett if it haue no other meaninge then insufficient to prooue all the articles of faith it is not reprehensible helpeth your cause nothinge at all The authoritie of the churche councell and tradition in explication of scriptures is as friuolusly alleaged by you to impugne the authoritie of the same scriptures as if you shoulde say the authoritie of the iudges or customes in England or anie other kingdome to interprete or expounde the Lawe doth violate and impeach the authoritie of the Lawe Your impertinencies are without measure or number The Pope is not the Churche as you more then childishlie terme him but he is the heade cheefe pastour of Gods Churche militant here vppon earth malgree all your spite and malice and therefore are you bound to heare and obey him if you woulde heare our Sauiour Christ who hath expreslie sayde of all the pastours of his churche he that heareth you heareth me but because you depise to heare our Sauiour Christe who addeth in the same place he that despiseth you despiseth me therefore you scorne to heare your pastour MANVALL SECT II. But before thou proceede to viewe the thinge it selfe I desire thee to consider wel these fewe points followinge First that no proofe of anie point of christian beliefe can be so direct and full out of holy scripture that may not be deluded by false interpretation For the damned Arrians and most other heretikes coulde interprete all places of holy scripture brought by the catholikes against theire heresie in such sence as beinge so vnderstoode they make nothinge against it yea that noe lesse seelie then peruerse heretike Legate burned in Smithfielde not longe since for Arrianisme coulde not be conuinced of heresie by onlie scripture Such proofes therefore of catholicke doctrine as cannot be deluded by anie interpretation are not to be expected out of holie scripture PILK An vnskilfull pilot that maketh shipwracke ere he getts out of the hauen You will prooue your faith out of holy scriptures and presentlie you will tell vs that your prooses
was decreed and donne was ascribed to Caesar Bibulus was a Cypher So whatsoeuer interpretation the RomaÌ„ churche that is the Pope geueth that must be intertayued the fathers sett behinde the dore This your Cardinall that was present at the counsell vnder Pius the fowerth telleth vs. Whatsoeuer the churche teacheth vs is the expresse worde of God whatsoeuer is taught contrarie to the sence and sentence of the churche is the expresse worde of the diuell CHAMP I maruell whither you will wander at lenght what is all this to the tryinge whether you or we haue the true sence of the scriptures The councell of Trent decreeth expreslie that which you seeme to approoue and yett you are not content with it your example of Caesar and Bibulus in a grammer scholler had been tollerable but in a D. of diuinitie it is too ridiculous And if you dislike the doctrine which you ascribe to Cardinal Hosius why doe you onlie mumble and grumble att it with in your teeth without disproouinge it either by scriptures or fathers But your malice will not permitt you to imbrace the truth nor your courage or strenght serue you to impugne it PILK And another more auncient then he It is no maruelle if the practise of the churche at one tyme interprett the scriptures after this manner and another after that for the vnderstandinge runneth with the practice for that sence which is concurrent with the practice is the quickinge spiritt therefore the scriptures followe church not conuertiblie If then the sentence of the Fathers ruÌ„ne not with the moderne Roman church they are not the messengers of God but in this manes opinion instruments of the diuell CHAMP You still wander out of the way and stray from your purpose But I will yett folowe you thoughe not without some patience Cusanus speaketh expresslie of the vse or sece of scriptures so farr as they pertaine to the rite order or manner of administring the Sacraments and namelie of Communion vnder one or both kindes which rites or Ceremonies because they may be diuerse and changeable without anie preiudice either to the nature of the Sacraments or to the veritie of holy scripture as indeede they are at this day different in the Greeke and Latin church the one consecratinge the holy Eucharist in leauened bredd the other in vnleauened and yett neither of them contrarie to the scriptures they may be altered and changed accordinge as the wisdome of gods churche seeth iust occasion and yett accordinge to the sence and meaning of the holy scriptures which to the churche is neuer vnknowne and this is Cusanus his plaine doctrine which you could not haue been ignorant of if you had read him yourselfe But it is your good nature to make alwaies the worst sence of your authors to deceaue your reader thereby For he speaketh not of scriptures so farr as they containe articles of faith which euer are the same but as they appertaine to matters of practice which may be different accordinge to the diuersitie of circumstances occurringe In settinge downe his wordes you vse your accustomed arte and fraude For his wordes where vppon you would make your cheefe aduantage are these Therefore the scriptures followe the church which was before them and for which the scriptures are not contrarie That is the churche is not for the scriptures Whereas you leauing out some parte of his speache make his wordes to sound that the sence and meaninge of the scriptures followe the vnderstandinge of the churche and not the vnderstandinge of the churche the sence of scriptures but might be contrarie vnto it which neither he nor anie other catholick man euer dreamed of PILK And in verie deed thoughe the Pope hath deuised a solemne oath whereunto your prosessours are sworne that they shall admitte of the holy scriptures accordinge to that sence which the holy mother the churche holdeth and they shall not at anie tyme take or interprett them but accordinge to the vnanimous consent of the fathers yett it is manifest that they doe not onlie leaue the sence which the fathers followe but followe that which noe father within 500. yeres after Christ did euer dreame of CHAMP Seinge the councell of Trent hath decreed as you say and the Pope hath appointed an othe to binde men to followe the sence of the scriptures deliuered by the church and consent of the fathers you haue small reason to say it is manifest that catholikes doe leaue that sence without some manifest proofe of your assertion which I will expect and exact of you vnder paine to esteeme you a rashe and slaunderous impostour In the meane tyme whilst you performe this taske you may for your erudition vnderstand that it is one thinge to giue an interpretation of a place of scripture which the fathers haue not geuen before and another to interprete it contrarie to the vniforme Consent of fathers The churche of god beinge no lesse assisted nowe by the holie ghost which teacheth her all truth accordinge to the infalible promise of our auiour Christe then was the churche within the first 500. yeeres shee is no lesse able to interprete the scripture accordinge to the true meaninge thereof then shee was then yet shee neuer gaâ—e-saith the interpretation of the auncient churche or of the vniforme consent of the holy fathers but lett vs heare howe you prooue your sayinge PILK Your late diuines interpretinge that place there shall be one flocke and one Shephearde forsake the fathers which vnderstande it of Christ and cleaue to the sence of theire mother who will haue it to be the Pope CHAMP Are you a master in Cambridge and knowe not that these two sences may be both true without anie contrarietie neither moderne nor auntient diuines euer vnderstood this place otherwise then of our Sauiour Christ principallie and for himselfe or per excellâ—ntiam But that it is not trulie vnderstood of him to whome he commended his flock which he redeemed as S. Chriâ—ostome saith who therefore is his vicar and vicegerent here in earth and also of his lauful successour in the same charge secondarilie and by participation none but contentious heretikes who will see nothinge in the scriptures contratie to theire errour doe will or canne denie PILK Doe this in remembrance of me that is sacrifice this is nowe the sence of the Roman churche shewe one father that tooke it soe and you shall weare the garland CHAMP Stand to your worde and the garlande will be mine by anie indifferent mans iudgment Heare S. Ireneus who liued aboue 1400. yeres agoe â—uÌ„ qui ex creatura panis est accepit gratias egit dicens Hoc est corpus meuÌ„ caliceÌ„ similiter qui est ex creatura quae est secundum nos suum sanguinem confessus ect noui testamenti nouam docuit oblationcm quam Ecclesia ab Apostoliâ— accipieÌ„s in vniuerso mundo offerâ— Deo When he tooke that which is of the creature bread
thinge deliuered in the worde CHAMP That is properlie an article of faith that is beleeued for diuine authoritie whether it be written or noe as were all these thinges the fathers beleeued before the lawe written And because we beleeue the bookes of Genesis for example and the rest of the holy Byble to be written by Gods reuelation therefore doe we beleeue them to be holy scripture and to containe gods worde Which therefore is properlie an article of faith no lesse then the misterie of the blessed trinitie beleeued for the same authoritie PILK Vppon this grounde I answere first in generall that none of these points are articles of faith CHAMP Vppon such a false grounde you are like to builde a good answere Is it no article of faith with you that the booke of Genesis is written by gods reuelation Tell me I pray you vnto what kinde of knowledge or assent you will reduce it I will confesse you a maister in diuinitie if you can make it well appeare by what other act of knowledge or vnderstandinge we assent vnto this veritie besides the act of faith Which if you cannot performe as assuredlie you cannott you must needes see this your first answere to be noe answere att all but a meere supposall of a manifest falsitie PILK Secondlie I answere to euerie one in particular I answere to the the first That all canonicall bookes and euerie parcell thereof be such is prooued out of themselues For besides that the ould testament prooueth the newe and the newe the old for whatsoeuer we read in the ould testament the same is founde in the gospell and whatsoeuer is founde in the gospell that is deduced from the authoritie of the ould testament as Hierome speaketh so in speciall euerie booke prooueth it selfe both by its owne light as formerlie was shewed and by the testimonie of Christ of the Prophets and Apostles that were the secretaries of the holy ghost The testimonie of our Sauiour Christ. Luc. 24. 44. These are the wordes which I spake vnto you while I was with you that all must needes be fulfilled which were written of me in the lawe of Moyses and in the prophetts and in the psalmes Of S. Paule 2. Tim. 3. 16. All scripture is geuen by the inspiration of God and is profitable to doctrine to reproofe to correction to instruction which is in righteousnes Of S. Peter the 2. epist 1. 21. The prophecie came not in olde tyme by the will of man but holy men of God spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost doe abundantlie prooue the bookes of the olde testament to be canonicall besides that there is not anie of them out of which some testimonie is not in the newe testament extant CHAMP Your second answere is as much to the purpose as your first Neither the old testament proouing the newe nor contrariwise vnles the one be beleeued before Yea you make your selfe ridiculous to all men by such a naturall or circulare proofe vnles you suppose the assured beleefe of some parte before For example if one shoulde demaunde of you how you knowe or why you doe beleeue those wordes of our Sauiour which you cite out of the 24 of S. Luke either to haue been spoken by him or written by S. Luke would you say that they euidentlie prooue themselues so to be surely this you must say both accordinge to your doctrine here and accordinge to the necessitie you putt your selfe into by denyinge the authority of tradition and of the churches testimonie And yett in sayinge that you shall euidently prooue your selfe to be senceles For there is noe such euidence of the thinge but anie man that is not moued with the authoritie of gods churche and tradition would esteeme it verie vncertaine and most doubtfull For vnles these wordes and that which I say of them I say of the rest of the scripture were God himselfe and spake to vs as imediatlie as he did to Moises and the rest of his prophetts they cannot be sayde to be knowne by theire owne light nor beleeued for theire owne truth Againe suppose you had certayne knoweledge of this by what meanes soeuer howe could you be certayne that he speaketh of those bookes of Moises psalmes and prophetts which we haue vnder those names This certainlie would be impossible for you to prooue seinge you reiect the authoritie of tradition and the churches iudgment by which onlie it is assuredlie prooued Furthermore you knowe that our Sauiour speakinge in his owne person required not to be beleeued but by the testimonie of his workes sayinge Nisi opera in eis fecissem 〈◊〉 nemo alius fecit peccatum non haberent Much lesse therefore doth he require that we shoulde beleeue a written booke to be his worde without other proofe then the selfe light of the booke which is not so greate as that of his owne liuelie worde◠The sayinge of S Hierome is nothinge to the purpose For he speaketh onlie of the mutuall consent and concord of the two testaments which to christians that alreadie beleeue them both to be the worde of God is no small confirmation of the veritie of the doctrine they both contayne PILK The Gospells of the Euangelists the Acts and Epistles of the Apostles the reuelation of S. Iohn prooue themselues out of themselues to be theires whose titles they beare And if we creditt the bookes of historians and Philosophers auncient and moderne diuine and humane to be theires whose names they carrie in theire foreheads what madnes were it to thinke the diuine scriptures not to be written by them who are said to be theire penmen after the defluxion of so manie ages wherein neuer anie good christian called them in question besides wicked Iesuits impure Manichees Cerdonians Marcionists and Ebionites CHAMP None of all these bookes say they were written by such and such as is manifest And thoughe they did yett were not this sufficient to prooue them theirs vnles it were certaine this were theire testimonie and that they were infallible in their testimonie As for the titles they beare there is the same difficultie For it is not otherwise knowne to be theirs then by faith and beleefe of which we seeke the grounde And if titles were sufficient proofes of the true gospells we should haue manie moe gospells then we haue as you cannot be ignorant Againe the Epistle to the Hebrues beareth not the name of anie of the Apostles and howe longe it was thought by diuerse not to be S. Paules you knowe vnles you be verie ignorant For the workes of other humane authors why doe you beleeue them to be theirs if it be not for the testimonie of all succeedinge ages brought vnto vs by tradition Giue some other sufficient grounde of your beleefe in this poynte if you can and if you cannot say you are senceles to reiect ecclesiasticall tradition in receiuinge the bookes of the Bible or else that your iudgment is foolishe and idle
it necessarie to beleeue that they wrote the wordes thereof and then it is not to the purpose to proue your positioÌ„ which is of thinges to be beleeued and not of wordes But if by the creede you vnderstande the matter of it and thinges to be beleeued then it is vntrue that the Apostles writte it not and all thinges contayned therein which thinges haue continued in our churche as the obiect of our faith not for tradition onlie as you ignorantly say but because they are recorded in the holy scripture CHAMP Shewe me then in theire writings I meane the Apostles the discention of our Sauiour into hell and the catholicke churche which Luther loued so little that he turned it the christian churche Thoughe we beleeue not onlie the parcells of the creede but the whole creede together And that the Apostles made it which is no where expressed in scripture And if I say ignorantlie that the creede as it is composed by the Apostles and therefore receiued and beleeued of all christians in al ages hath continued in the church vntill this day by tradition only shewe it me written in the scriptures and I will confesse myne ignorance and correct my wordes But seeinge you cannot performe that I tell you that you impudentlie affirme that it hath other continuance then by tradition opposinge tradition to the canonicall scripture onlie Manuall Proofe 7. They taught Baptisme administred by heretikes to be good and therefore S. Aug. speakinge thereof saith Manie thinges which are not found in the Apostles writinges nor in the latter councells yet because they are obserued by the whole churche are beleeued to be deliuered and recommended by none but by theÌ„ Againe he saith There are manie thinges which the whole church doth hold and therefore are well beleeued to be commaunded by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written PILK That Baptisme ministred by heretikes was preached by the Apostles but not written hath as much truth as the rest For whereas Cyprian hath taught that Baptisme of heretikes was not good and therefore to be reiterated S. Aug. crosseth him and prooueth the contrarie out of the ghospell and out of the wordes of the Apostle Ephe. 4. And this is so frequent with that father that it maketh me thinke you haue not read him of that argument but gleaned out of others that might serue your turne So pâ—lpably are you deceiued to thinke that S. August conceiued this to be an vnwritten tradition without ground of scripture for thus he writeth That I may not seeme to prooue it by humane arguments I will bringe foorth certayne documents out of the scripture And whereas Cyprian had taught that for proofe of this we must haue recourse vnto the fountayne of Apostolicall tradition that is the scriptures S. Aug approoueth it and saith that the Apostles deliuered that there is one God one Christe one baptisme and therefore baptisme of heretikes is firme and not to be repeated When then he saith of this as of other thinges that they are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in latter councells c. And there be manie thinges which the whole churche doth holde and therfore are well beleeued to be commended by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written Which wordes are in his 2. booke contra Donatistas cap. 7. and not lib. 5. cap. 27. as you cited them His meaninge is they are not written in so manie wordes but the groundes of them are layd in the scriptures and thence necessarilie they may be concluded This is playne out of Aug. for hauinge vttered these wordes vrged by you when he draweth to an ende of this disputation he thus concludeth It might suffice that our reasons beinge so often repeated and diuerselie debated and handled in disputinge and the documents of holy scripture beinge added and so manie testimonies of Cyprian concurringe By this tyme I thinke the weaker sorte of men vnderstande that the baptisme of Christe cannot be violated by the peruersnes of the partie that geueth or receiueth it Loe howe be bringeth documents out of scripture to prooue that the peruersnes of heretikes peruerteth not the baptisme of Christe and therfore baptisme ministred by hereticks is good CHAMP Is it be written by the Apostles that the Baptisme of heretikes is sufficient and not to be reiterated why doe not you shewe the place and confound your aduersarie But you had rather impudeÌ„tlie affirme an vntruth theÌ„ ingeniously acknowledg a cleare veritie As thoughe if it hadd been so clearly fully taught in holy scripture as you are bound to shewe it S. Cyprian who had a much iudgmeÌ„t to discerne it as you att least and noe lesse good will to acknowledge it nor yett lesse industrie and diligence to seeke it could not he haue esped it And howsoeuer here you wilfullie wrangle out of S. Aug as though he acknowledged not the Baptisme of heretikes by tradition yett two pages after you in expresse wordes confesse that he saith neither baptisme of infants nor by heretikes are written in scripture And though you interpret him both here and there to meane that they are not founde written in so manie wordes but that the groundes notwithstandinge from whence they may be necessarilie concluded are layd in the scriptures yett is this your glosse meerelie voluntarie clearlie against S. August meaninge and common sence Or iâ— not why doe not you frame some argument which by necessary consequence may conclude out of the groundes layd in scripture abstractinge from the authoritie of the churche and tradition either of these two articles But it is more easie for you to affirme twentie positions then to prooue one Manuall catholike position 2. The Catholike churche doth and ought to beleeue those thinges which the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth without writinge in the same degree of faith with those that are written PILK For answere vnto this lett the iudicious reader obserue that it is the vsuall doctrine of Papists to teach that all points of Christian beliefe which are necessarie for all men were publikelie preached by the Apostles to all men and recorded in the register of holy scripture But besides these there were diuers thinges committed to prelats and priests that were more perfect men which they taught them a parte accordinge to that which S. Paule saith we speake wisdome amonge them that are perfect And these be theire traditions which they would haue equallie credited with the scriptures Nowe this was the verie doctrine of the auncient heretikes Valentinians Cerintheans Marcionists c. For abusinge the scripture and aduancinge traditioÌ„s grounded on the same foundation as the fathers tell vs. And these be thinges which the protestants denie to be equall with the scriptures for they graunt that the Apostles in the beginninge of theire embassage write not the whole doctrine which they preached but deliuered parte by worde of mouth and parte by writinge howbeit they consigned the Canon of the scripture and
are not so direct and full but your aduersaries may delude them and that none such must be expected from you much like the soolishe or at our who vsuallie propoundinge three or fower points to speake of euer forgott one of them and then charged his aduersaries that they had bewitched him So the weakenes of your arguments is imputed to the delusion of your opposites CHAMP A blinde aduersarie that doth not see what he hath to impugne I proposed in my Manuall to shewe the catholicke doctrine to haue true grounde in the holy scriptures and this Parallelist woulde haue such conuinceinge testimonies as may not be deluded by anie false interpretation we shall belike see that he will play the man egregiouslie when it shall come to his turne to prooue his owne doctrine and will bringe such testimonies for himselfe as he requireth of me In the meane tyme lett vs heare the rest of his learned discourse PILK But to your bold and rusticke assertion that noe articles of faith are so fullie prooued out of the scripture but may be deluded by false interpretation the Fathers shall answere nothinge can delude them that search the scripture CHAMP Which of the fathers say this why doe you not name them you putt in the margent Theophilact and Chrisostome but not as authors of this your senceles assertion that none canne be deluded that search the scriptures but you geue a reason thereof out of the fathers let vs heare it PILK For they the scriptures are the candle whereby the theese is espied Chrisostome saith that Manichees and all heretickes deceiue the simple if we haue the sences of our mindes exercised to discerne good and euill we may be able to escape them But howe may our sences become practised by the vse of the scriptures and often readinge CHAMP What is all this to prooue that anie testimonie of scripture may not be deluded by a false interpretatiō that is that a peeuishe or a peruerse aduersarie cannot vnderstande or interprete it otherwise then it is meant These fathers sayinges be they trulie related by you or noe which I list not nowe examine haue this manifest sence that a catholicke man conuersant in scriptures who vnderstandeth them in the sence of the churche cannot be deceiued by heretickes but espieth quicklie their theeuish driftes which is true but farr frō that which you shoulde prooue to witt that noe hereticke can so interprete the testimonie of holy scripture but that he must necessarilie remaine conuinced of his heresie by them PILK S. August auoucheth that all articles of faith are plainlie sett downe in holy scriptures and that so euidentlie that diuers of them neede noe interpretation att all as that Christ must suffer and rise againe the third day and that repentance and remission of sinnes must be preached in his name in all nations begininge at Hierusalem as it needeth noe interpreter this gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in all the worlde and then shall be the end as it needeth noe interpreter yee shall be my witnesses in Hierusalem and in all Iudea Samaria and the whole earth as it needeth noe interpretour suffer both to growe vntill the haruest and when it needeth an interpretour the Lorde himselfe did interprete it whome no man dare contradict Your owne Stapleton affirmeth the Popes Supremacie which is noe meane article of your faith to be fullie and abundantlie prooued out of the scripture CHAMP Conclude out of all these wordes be they trulie related or otherwise for it importeth not to examine them that the testimonies of scripture for anie one pointe of faith may be so conueincinge that they cannott by anie false interpretation be deluded and you shall say something to the purpose otherwise all your wordes are but idle and impertinent bablinge not worthe the readinge PILK But lett it be graunted that the scriptures may be thus deluded as you woulde haue them it neither helpeth you nor hurteth me Sith whatsoeuer you adde to bringe fulnes vnto them whether traditions or councells is equallie subiect if not more to delusion then the written worde of God CHAMP I woulde you wist that I disdaine to take anie thinge of guyfte or graunt of you that pertayneth to the defence of the catholicke truth denie therefore hardelie that which you can without blushinge and graunt me no more then that I extort from you by force of argument and after good deliberation shape me answere to these demandes followinge First is it not a cheefe article of Christiā beleefe that the sonne of God is of equall or one substance and glorie with his father and secondlie is not this article as clearlie and as often sett downe in the scripture as anie other articles of our beliefe And thirdlie did not the Arrians delude by false interpretation all the proofes of the sayde article so that they remained not conuinced by anie of them nor all of them together which of all these three propositions will you denie you will not as I suppose finde anie probable ground to denie anie of them And yett if you graunt them all as they are all most manifestlie true that is clearlie concluded which I affirme and you denie to witt that noe testimonie of holy scripture can be so direct and conuincinge but that it may be eluded by false interpretation You say be it so what doth this either helpe me or hurte you But you are verie shorte sighted or rather starke blinde if you see not this For it helpeth me in that it deliuereth me of the charge or obligation to bringe such testimonie of holy scripture in proofe of the article of our catholicke beleefe as cannot by anie tergiuersation or false interpretatiō be miscōstrued or misunderstoode by you which you would seeme to tye me vnto it hurteth you because it euidentlie sheweth that the sole scriptures are not sufficiēt to conuince anie wilfull or obstinate hereticke in anie article of faith as you affirme it to be The reason that you alleage why it shoulde not helpe me nor hurte you that all criptures may be mis-interpreted is altogether misapplyed prooueinge not that for which it is alleaged but rather disprooeuinge the proposition it selfe But this is a small ouersight in your discourse you say therefore that whatsoeuer is added to the scriptures to interprete them whether traditions or counsells is equallie if not more subiect to delusion whereunto I answere First that neither counsells nor traditions are so subiect to misinterpretatiō as the scriptures are And the reason is because they expresse more particularlie theire owne sence and meaninge then the scriptures ordinarilie doe and consequentlie leaue not so much libertie of misinterpretatiō as they doe Secōdlie I answere that whēsoeuer the testimonie of councells or traditions are drawne into doubte and difficultie as often they are heretickes seruinge themselues of them as they doe of the scriptures they are to be vnderstoode accordinge to the iudgment of the
Moreouer were it certainly knowne vnto vs that S. Mathewe wrote the gospell we haue vnder his owne name as it is nowe by tradition and the churches authoritie yett vnles it were further certaine that he wrote by diuine inspiration which without some diuine testimonie we knowe not it could not be certaine to vs that his gospell is the word of God Nowe if you had lefte out of the number of those that haue called the scriptures into questioÌ„ Iesuites and putt in theire place Lutherans or Protestants your wordes might haue passed for currant But tell me in the small honestie of a protestant minister did you euer knowe that anie Iesuite called anie booke of scripture into question or doubte you cannot thoughe you burst your selfe giue an instance Whereas you doe not onlie call manie bookes of the holy Byble into doubt but absolutlie reiect them as Apocripha and your Grand father Luther with his truer disciples doth manie moe euen of those which you say is madnes to call into question Hath malice so blinded you and wilfull rage against the truth made you so madd that you feele not the deadly woundes which you geue your selfe whilst you strike or at least thinke to strike your aduersarie PILK But what iuglinge is this we beleeue these bookes to be theirs whose names they carrie for the authoritie of the churche that is the Pope who is S. Peeters successour and holdeth all his authoritie from him and yett we cannot beleeue S. Peeter himselfe that this Epistle is his but because the present Pope hath so determined it CHAMP I cannot say that you iugle here you are so grossely impertinent and hoodle vppe so manie apparant absurdities in these fewe wordes Where learned you I pray you that the Pope is the churche or that he holdeth all his authoritie from S. Peter and not from Christ himselfe Againe where doth S Peter testifie that this is his Epistle haue you or anie of your reformed bretheren heard him say it no such thinge Seeing therefore neither you nor anie man nowe a liue euer heard him testifie anie such thinge what great iuglinge is it I pray you to beleeue a liuely and liuinge witnes assisted by the spiritt of truth and taught by those who lineallie descended from S. Peter testifiinge that these are S. Peters writinges rather then to beleeue a doombe paper or parchment which might be written by some other as well as other thinges that went a broade vnder the same Apostles name And by that which hath beeÌ„ hitherto sayde on both sides you may see if you will not shut your eies that you may not see that it is cleare notwithstandinge all your childishe ianglinge that all articles of faith are not contayned in scriptues otherwise then is mentioned in the position of the Manuall nowe lett vs see your answere to the other proofes of the same position PILK To your second instance we say with Saint August that we are not willinge to moue anie questions aboute the Mother of God for the honour we beare vnto her sonne Yett sith you stirre the coales we answere that it is an highe pointe of our faith and sufficientlie prooued in the scriptures that Christe was borne of an intemerat Virgin but whether after his birth shee were knowne of Ioseph thoughe the negatiue be a seemelie and reuerend truth yett we say with Basill that it toucheth not our faith CHAMP You woulde seeme to be religiouslie affected towardes the blessed Virgin but notwithstandinge you minse S. Aug wordes least you shoulde doe her too much honour his wordes are these De Maria propter honorem Saluatoris nullam cum de â—eccatis agitur habere volo quaestionem And in the end you are content rather to incline towardes the old heretike Heluidius then to beleeue with the holy catholike churche concerninge the perpetuall virginitie of the blessed Virgin Where is nowe I pray you your rule of faith before mentioned non credimus quia non legimus I coniure you vppon forfeiture of your honestie and integritie either to reiect that rule as noe sufficient grounde of faith in anie article or else to beleeue that the blessed Virgin was neuer knowne of anie man Take whether parte you please you shall geue sentence for me against your selfe PILK Your thirde instance is no article of faith but â— Canon of manners so in the number not of thinges to be beleeued but to be donne Wherein thoughe to the Apostles for the auoydinge of scandall for the eatinge of thinges strangled and blood yett when the offence was remoued the eatinge was allowed Rom. 14. 14. 1. Tim. 4. 4. and Saint August prooueth it out of S. Mathewe cap. 15. 17. 18. CHAMP Are you so blockishe that you doe not or so peruerse that you will not see the difference betweene the practise of anie thinge and the doctrine of the lawfulnes of the same practise Whereby you might be taught that thoughe the first be not an article of faith yett the second may be For example thoughe it be not an article of faith for two single persons to marrie together but a matter of practise yett is it a matter of faith that they may lawfullie marrie together as I hope you will not denie and so in fiue hundreth more thinges That the Apostles did make that prohibition for a tyme onlie and not to continue euer where is it written or whence haue you it but by the churches authoritie interpretation The places of scriptures by you cited were they to the purpose as they are not woulde be sufficient arguments to make some of the bookes doubtfull as coÌ„tradictinge the one the other were there not a iudge to reconcile them and bringe them to attonement togeather And thus you see all the three instances brought in proofe of the catholike position in the Manuall to remaine firme and solide and your euasions to be childishe wranglings without truth or substance PILK Thus you see you fight against God when you warre against the perfection of holy worde Which that you may more plainlie perceiue in the last place I will sett downe the protestants doctrine not in such double tearmes as you deuised but theire owne wordes as they haue positiuelie deliuered with the seuerall authorities of holy scriptures whereby they confirme it and testimonies of fathers whereby they shewe the consanguinitie of it with the purest Christians For the positions sett downe by you are not by them acknowledged CHAMP If you deny my positions to be true as hauinge hitherto disputed against them you seeme to doe then must you of necessitie acknowledge the contradictorie to be true and maintaine them as yours vnles you will haue both contradictories to be false which no man yett euer hearde of But why doe you not put downe the positions which I call the protestants positions that the reader might see how iustlie you denie them to be yours I will supply your defect that the