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A51741 A reformed catechism. The first dialogue in two dialogues concerning the English Reformation / collected for the most part, word for word out of Dr. Burnet, John Fox, and other Protestant historians ; published for the information of the people in reply to Mas William Kings answer to D. Manby's considerations &c. ; by Peter Manby. Manby, Peter, d. 1697. 1687 (1687) Wing M388; ESTC R30509 77,561 110

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there hath been these Orders of Ministers in Christs Church Bishops Priests and Deacons which Offices were evermore had in such reverent estimation that no man by his own private Authority might presume to execute any of them except he were first called c. And Bishop Bramhall affirms with great assurance Among all the Eastern Southern and Northern Christians who make innumerable multitudes there neither is nor ever was one formed Church that wanted Bishops among all the Western Churches and their Colonies there never was one formed Church for 1500 years that wanted Bishops If there be any persons so far possessed with prejudice that they choose rather to follow the private dictates of their own Phrensy than the perpetual and universal practice of the Catholique Church enter not into their Secrets O my Soul. Bishop Bramhall Consecration of Protestant Bishops vindicated p. 431. of his Works printed at Dublin And you know the Church of Englands practice at this day which admits of no Calvinian Ministers into her Clergy without Episcopal Ordination NOTE Thus it appears by an Induction of all the several Denominations of Christians that in Cranmers opinion there could be no such National or Catholique Church extant upon the face of the earth anno 1556. as that which the Church of England defines Article 19th The visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithful men in which the pure Word of God is preached and the Sacraments duely administred according to Christs Ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same So that his saying I reverence the Authority of the Catholick Church was but an illusion or vain pretence to avoid the Censure of Heresie his Catholique Church at that time being like Terra incognita in our Maps not as yet found out What tolerable excuse Good Reader canst thou invent for this Reformer have Lutherans Papists Calvinists Anabaptists Socinians Greek Church c. all those things that of necessity are requisite to the preaching of Gods pure Word and due Administration of Sacraments according to Christs Ordinance If so then shew me a solid reason if thou canst why a Church of England man should not receive the Sacraments of all or any of these Sects If the Church of Rome have all those things that of necessity are requisite c. how or where shall Cranmer appear at the day of Judgment If she have not then how is she a Member of Christs visible Church as Protestants say she is A corrupt Member perhaps you will call her but if she wants any thing necessary or essential to a Christian Church she is no Member at all If she errs only in matters not Fundamental or non essential as is confessed by very learned Protestants she is secure still but thou art not secured from Schism If she holds all things necessary to Salvation and no Error that destroys the Christian Faith she may be saved and what more wouldst thou have But whether she does or does not hold any Errors destructive of Salvation I pray who shall be Judge Answer that short Question if thou wouldst say any thing to the purpose What Authority had Cranmer to call the Pope Antichrist more than the Pope had to pronounce him an Heretick He swore Obedience to the Pope which the Pope never did to him He divorced Queen Katherine styling himself Legatus a Latere as you may find in Burnet A. But he appealed to a General Council what did he mean by that B. Nothing but to divert the proceedings of the Court for he valued the Authority of General Councils as little as he did that of the Catholick Church A. Pray make that out B. Burnet acquaints you page 176. 1 Vol. He viz. Cranmer said some General Councils had been rejected by others and it was a tender point how much ought to be deferred to a Council And as all God's Promises to the people of Israel had this Condition implyed within them if they kept his Commandments so he thought the Promises to the Christian Church had this Condition in them if they kept the Faith Therefore says Burnet he had much doubting in himself as to General Councils and he thought that only the Word of God was the Rule of Faith which ought to take place in all Controversies of Religion This be said in the year 1534. NOTE The word of God admits of various Interpretations the Question is Who shall determine which is the true Interpretation a General Council or Cranmer 's private Spirit in Opposition to that Council But his Opinion of General Councils appears further from the XXI Article of the Church of England viz. General Councils when they are gathered together forasmuch as they be an Assembly of men whereof all be not governed by the Spirit and Word of God they may err and sometime have erred in things pertaining unto God. Wherefore things Ordained by them as necessary unto Salvation have neither strength nor Authority unless it may be declared that they be taken out of Holy Scripture NOTE But who shall take upon him to judge of the Decrees of General Councils whether they be Consonant to Scripture or not shall any single Person Or any particular Church Where is the Modesty of that Shall any inferiour Authority take upon it self to contradict or reverse the Decrees of a Superiour If so then why may not any single Minister or Bishop of the Reformed Church protest against the Judgment of a Protestant Convocation If he may not do it without Censure how shall the Church of England being but a particular Church take upon her self to damn and contradict the Faith of all the rest of the Christian World A. Shew me where she assumes any such Authority B. Read her XIX Article viz. as the Church of Jerusalem Alexandria and Antioch have erred so also the Church of Rome hath erred not only in their Living and manner of Ceremonies but also in matters of Faith. Then see the third part of her Homily against peril of Idolatry and observe these words So that Laity and Clergy learned and unlearned all Ages Sects and Degrees of Men Women and Children of whole Christendom an horrible and most dreadful thing to think have been at once drowned in abominable Idolatry and that by the space of eight hundred years and more NOTE Here the Doctrine of the Church of England that Christ had no Church upon earth for the space of eight hundred years and more before Cranmer The same Homily teaches further viz. and at the last the learned also were carried away with the publick Error as with a violent stream or flood And at the second Council of Nice the Bishops and Clergy decreed that Images should be worshipped and so by occasion of these stumbling Blocks not only the unlearned and simple but the learned and wise not only the People but the Bishops not the Sheep but also the Shepherds themselves who should have been Guides in the right way
his Tryal pleaded strongly against the Statute that made it Treason to deny the Supremacy and argued that the King could not be Supream Head of the Church When he was brought to the Bar he pleaded Not Guilty but being found Guilty Judgment was given aganst him as a Traitor He received it with an equal Temper of Mind which he had shewed in both conditions of Life and then set himself wholly to prepare for Death He expressed great Contempt of the World and that he was weary of Life and long'd for Death which was so little terrible to him that his ordinary Facetiousness remained with him on the Scaffold It was censured by many as light and undecent but others said that way having been so natural to him on all other occasions it was not at all affected but shewed that Death did no way discompose him nor so much as put him out of his ordinary Humour Yet his rallying every thing on the Scaffold was thought to have more of the Stoick than the Christian in it After some time spent in secret Devotions he was beheaded on the sixth of July Thus dyed Sir Thomas More in the 53d year of his age He was a man of rare Vertues and excellent Parts In his youth he had freer thoughts of things as appears by his Vtopia and his Letters to Erasmus but afterwards he became superstitiously devoted says Burnet to the Interests and Passions of the Popish Clergy and as he served them when he was in Authority even to assist them in all their Cruelties so he employed his Pen in the same Cause both in writing against all the new Opinions in general and in particular against Tindall Frith and Barns He was no Divine at all if you believe Burnet and it is plain to any that reads his Writings that he knew nothing of Antiquity beyond the Quotations he found in the Canon Law and in the Master of the Sentences only he had read some of St. Austins Treatises For upon all points of Controversie he quotes only what he found in those Collections Nor was was he at all conversant in the critical Learning upon the Scriptures he did not care for the new fangled Conceits of the Reformers But his peculiar Excellency in writing was that he had a natural easie Expression and presented all the Opinions of Popery with their fair side to the Reader disguising or concealing the black side of them with great Art that is he did not understand or mistake Popery as Protestants do and was no less dextrous in exposing all the ill consequences that could follow on the Doctrine of the Reformers and had upon all occasions great store of pleasant Tales which he applied wittily to his purpose And in this consists the great strength of his Writings which were designed rather for the Rabble than for learned Men. But for Justice Contempt of Mony Humility and a true Generosity of Mind he was an Example to the Age in which he lived Burnets words pag 356. 1 vol. Second Edition The Bishop of Rochester had been a Prisoner above a year and was very severely used says Burnet he complained in his Letters to Cromwell then Secretary of State that he had neither Clothes nor Fire being then about fourscore years of age If he had kept his Opinion of the Kings Supremacy to himself they could not have proceeded further He would not do that but did upon several occasions speak against it So he was brought to his Tryal on the 17th of June The Lord Chancellor the Duke of Suffolk and some other Lords together with the Judges sate upon him by Commission of Oyer and Terminer He pleaded Not Guilty But being found Guilty Judgment passed on him to dye as a Traytor But he was by a Warrant from the King beheaded Upon the 22d of June being the day of his Execution he dressed himself with more than ordinary care and when his Man took notice of it he told him he was to be that day a Bridegroom As he was led to the place of Execution being stop'd in the way by the croud he opened his New Testament and prayed to this purpose that as that Book had been his Companion and chief Comfort in his Imprisonment so then some place might turn up to him that might comfort him in his last passage This being said he opened the Book at a venture in which these words of St. Johns Gospel turn'd up This is Life eternal to know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent So he shut the Book with much satisfaction and all the way was reading and meditating on them When he came to the Scaffold he pronounced the Te Deum And after some other Devotions his Head was cut off Thus dyed Jon Fisher Bishop of Rochester in the 80th year of his age He was a learned and devour man says Burnet but much addicted to the Superstitions in which he had been bred up and that led him to great severities against all that opposed them He had been for many years Confessor to the Kings Grandmother the Countess of Richmond And it was believed that he persuaded her to those noble designs fer the Advancement of Learning of founding 2 Colledges in Cambridge St. Johns and Christs Colledge and Divinity Professors in both Universities And in acknowledgement of this he was chosen Chancellor of the University of Cambridge Henry 7. gave him the Bishoprick of Rochester which he following the rule of the primitive Church would never change for a better He used to say his Church was his Wife and he would never part with her because she was poor He continued in great Favour with Henry 8. till the business of the Divorce was set on foot and then he adhered so firmly to the Queens Cause and the Popes Supremacy that he was carried headlong into great Errors So Burnet after his petulant manner is pleased to character this good man pag. 354. 1. vol. But then adds Many thought the King ought to have proceeded against him rather upon that which was a point of State than upon the Supremacy which was matter of Conscienec but the King saith he was resolved to let all his Subjects see there was no Mercy to be expected by any that denyed his being Supreme Head of the Church and therefore made him and Sir Thomas More two Examples for terrifying the rest Burnet ibid. But the Courage and Christian Soul of this Bishop appears in those Speeches which he made in the House of Lords whereof there is no mention in Burnet Which for the primitive Simplicity and Honesty thereof I shall here transcribe out of Dr. Bayly's History The First Speech concerning the Demand of the Smaller Abbies for the Kings Use My Lords I Pray you to take good heed unto what you are doing lest you do you know not what For indeed the things that are demanded at our hands are not ours to grant nor theirs to whom we should bestow them
thereof then the matter were not so great but in this we do forsake the first four General Councils which none ever forsook We renounce all Canonical and Ecclesiastical Laws of the Church of Christ we renounce all other Christian Princes we renounce the Unity of the Christian World I suppose he means by inventing to our Selves a Church of England divided from all the rest of the Christian World and so by leaping out of Peters Ship to be drowned in the unstable Waters of Heresie Sects Schisms and Confusions For the first General Council of Nice acknowledged Sylvester the Bishop of Rome his Authority to be over them by sending their Decrees to be ratifyed by him The Council of Constantinople did acknowledge Pope Damasus to be their Chief by admitting him to give Sentence against the Hereticks Macedonius Sabellius and Eunomius The Council of Ephesus acknowledged Pope Celestine to be their chief Judge by admitting his Condemnation upon the Heretick Nestorius The Council of Calcedon acknowledged Pope Leo to be their chief Head and all General Councils of the World ever acknowledged the Pope of Rome only to be Supream Head of the Church under Christ And now shall we set up another Head or one Head in England and another in Rome 3. We deny all Ecclesiastical Laws which do wholly depend upon the Authority of the Apostolick See of Rome 4 We renounce the Judgment of all other Christian Princes whether they be Protestants or Catholicks Nay by this argument Nero and Herod must have been Heads of the Church of Christ The Emperour must be Head of the Protestant Church in Germany And the Church of Christ must have never a Head at all till about three hundred years after Christ Fifthly The Kings Majesty is not susceptible of this Donation Ozias for medling with the Priests Office was resisted by Azarias thrust out of the Temple and told that it belongs not to his Office. Now if the Priest spake truth in this then is not the King to meddle in this business if he spake amiss why did God plague the King with Leprosie for this and not the Priest King David when the Ark of God was bringing home did he place himself in the head of the Priests Order did he so much as touch the Ark or execute any the least Office properly belonging to the Priestly Function or did he not rather go before and abase himself amongst the people and say that he would become yet more vile so that God might be glorified All good Christian Emperors have evermore refused Ecclesiastical Authority for at the first General Council of Nice certain Bills were privily brought unto Constantine to be ordered by his Authority but he caused them to be burnt saying Dominus vos constituit c. God hath ordained you Priests and hath given you Power to be Judges over us and therefore by right in these things we are to be judged by you but you are not to be judged by me Valentine the Good Emperor was desired by the Bishops to be present with them to reform the Heresie of the Arrians but he answered Forasmuch as I am one of the Members of the Lay people it is not lawful for me to define such Controversies but let the Priests to whom God hath given the charge thereof assemble where they will in due Order Theodosius writing to the Council of Ephesus saith It is not lawful for him that is not of the holy Order of Bishops to intermeddle with Ecclesiastical matters And now shall we cause our King to be Head of the Church which all good Kings have abhorred the very least thought of and so many wicked Kings have been plagued for so doing Truly my Lords I think they are his best Friends that disswade him from it and he would be the worst enemy to himself if he should obtain it Lastly If this thing be farewel all Unity with Christendom for as that holy and blessed Martyr St. Cyprian saith all Unity depends upon that holy See as upon the Authority of St. Peters Successors for saith the fame holy Father all Heresies Sects Schisms have no other Rise but this that men will not be obedient to the chief Bishop and now for us to shake off our Communion with that Church either we must grant the Church of Rome to be the Church of God or else a Malignant Church If you answer she is a Church of God and a Church where Christ is truly taught his Sacraments rightly administred c. how can we forsake how can we fly from such a Church certainly we ought to be with and not to separate our selves from such a one If we answer The Church of Rome is not of God but a Malignant Church then it will follow that we the Inhabitants of this Land have not as yet received the true Faith of Christ seeing we have not received any other Gospel any other Doctrine any other Sacraments than what we have received from her as most evidently appears by all the Ecclesiastical Histories wherefore if she be a Malignant Church we have been deceived all this while and if to renounce the common Father of Christendom all the General Councils especially the first Four which none renounce all the Countreys of Christendom whether they be Catholique Countreys or Protestant be to forsake the Unity of the Christian World then is the granting of the Supremacy of the Church unto the King a renouncing of this Unity a tearing of the Seamless Coat of Christ in sunder a dividing of the Mystical Body of Christ his Spouse limb from limb and tayl to tayl like Sampsons Foxes to set the Field of Christs holy Church all on fire and this is it which we are about wherefore let it be said unto you in time and not too late Look you to that The End of the First Dialogue containing the History of the First Reformers and Anti-Reformers The Second treats of the Reformation it self and the natural Fruits thereof Jealousy and Distraction amongst the People Decay of Sincerity c. Now Reader wer't thou to choose thy Religion consider which of these two Guides thou wouldst follow Cranmer or the Bishop of Rochester the former having no Mission from Heaven nor major Vote of the Convocation to authorise his Reformation nor yet any great mind to dye a Martyr for the same the later frankly exposing his Life to Stemm that Inundation of Sacriledge Schism and Confusion that was breaking in anno 1535. FINIS