attaine with toleration of what can be the reformation thereof with the liberty of Gods true worship therein If indeed that cannot bee obtained but men contradict and blaspheme them as Paul separated the Disciples so wee see no other remedy the faithfull have in such a case The second stumbling block may be our Doctrine and practise about Church-Government when wee give Discipline as well as other Ordinances to particular Churches not subjecting them to any Government out of themselves but onely to take the brotherly counsell and helpe one of another But how this should hinder a generall Reformation we see not for if every Church so reforme themselves as is aforesaid and have such Officers over them as the rule of the New Testament requires 1 Tim. 3. Tit. 2. wee need not feare to betrust the Church having such Officers with that power which we conceive Christ hath given to the same other Churches watching over them counselling and admonishing them in the Lord. But if there be not such a reformation of the Churches nor such guides set over them the power of the keyes in a Presbytery of such Pastors as may not be according to the rule may as much abuse them as a particular Church may doe and it may be to the hurt of many who would use them better in their own Congregations then they can in a Classis being over-voted there And we cannot conceive but both the care of reforming the matter of a Church and the recalling of the power of government to the Church tends much to further this worke of reformation no way to hinder the same And if wee might obtaine that of our deare Brethren which wee humbly crave viz. That our Doctrine and practise might be taken candidly according to our plaine meaning and declarations and not represented unto the World under such shapes and formes as make it seeme rigid all one with the most rigid Separatists Donatists Arminians Socinians c. we should hope that we shall goe for lovers and friends to a godly and generall Reformation not for disturbers of the same but the contrary dealing we meet with too too oft through the mistakes of Brethren This learned Author Mr. Ball though in the Epistle he desired us to rest assured that although he had conceived such thoughts of us as leaning to separation yet he would gladly receive every syllable from us that should dislodge such thoughts yet against our plaine profession sometime he will needs fasten the opinion of separation upon us and very frequently sets Mr. Robinson in a parallel with our opinions as if we generally went that way in those things which are well known to be the Doctrine of many of our godly and best reformers The Learned may plainly see how easie it had been for us and upon better grounds to have filled our margents with quotations out of Papists and Prelates as parallel with many passages of this Reply but we have purposely abstained from so doing that we might not cast any blur or provoke the spirits of brethren And seeing we are inforced to wipe off such aspersions we humbly desire our beloved Brethren whose learned labours wee honour to beare with us if we lightly touch this sore for wee confesse it brings blushing into our faces and sadnesse to our hearts to read so often such harsh imputations cast upon us which we cannot conceive but falling from such pens they breed a strange loathing of us in the stomachs of many that read bookes without serious examinations thereof First how oft doe wee meet with that imputation that wee make none members of a visible Church but such as are really saints and beleevers contrary to our frequent profession That visible saints that are such in judgement of charity are fit matter of the Church Secondly that we make a vocall Church Oath or Covenant the essentiall forme of a Church when as wee frequently acknowledge that this Covenant which constituteth a Church is either implicite or explicite and that Congregations in England are truly Churches having an implicite covenant and it is far from our practise to use any Oath in our Covenant and strange to us to read so many Pages against our Church Oath and swearing to a Covenant to make our courses horrid and too too rigorous Thirdly that we set up a popular government making the Elders of the Church no more but moderators c. and that Ministers recâ—…ive their power from the people are their servants and administer in their name as Mr. Ball and others object when we oft professe the contrary that all authoâ—…ity properly so called is in the hands of the Elders and the liberty of the people is to bee carryed in a way of subjection and obedience to them in the Lord neither doth it follow from any Doctrine of ours no more then from the ordination of Pastors by the Presbytery that they are their servants c. Fourthly that if a Congregation reject a Pastor for no fault they take both nomen esse the name and nature of a Pastor from him For this the Reader is referred to our Answer of the twenty fift Question of the thirty two questions sent unto us where nothing at all is said but reference is made to our answer to the nine questions amongst which the seventh being of this very point our answer is quite contrary to what is imputed to us Our words are these Concerning the Minister himselfe thus deposed c. we conceive though hee bee by them deprived of the execution of his Ministery amongst them yet untill hee accept of a call to another people hee still remaine a Minister of Christ in whose account hee hath true right of administration among the people Now if hee remaine a Minister of Christ and have true right to administer let any judge whether wee take away nomen or esse or that wee make Church censures worke ex opere operato clave errante as is also imputed to us Many such mistakes we finde but let these suffice to informe the Reader how wary hee had need bee in receiving such reports against brethren and this charity wee have cause the more earnestly to crave of all that they would reserve one eare to heare what their poore out-cast brethren can say for themselves because wee are placed at such a distance and disadvantage that oft-times it is not possible for us to take notice of such objections and return an answer under a yeare or almost two years whereby Satan hath a marvailous advantage to work strange thoughts and distastefull affections towards us and fasten them so deeply that hardly they will bee taken off again But thus it falleth out too too frequently that when Brethren otherwise deare to each other differ in their judgements and breake out to open contention about the same they are very apt to make the opinions of the contrary party as unpleasing and absurd to the judgement of others as may bee whence
therefore impossible both in regard of distance of place and variety of language almost ever to meet in one so much as by representation and that not onely by accident as may befall a particular Church by sickness persecution c. but by the necessity of nature and invincible hinderances foreseen by Christ and intended by him And therfore as the Lord limiting his Church to one Nation united it into that form of a Nationall Church ordaining one place stated times and duties of Worship and one Government for the same so now the â—…ord neglecting all such things hath ordained a compleat administration of all his ordinances in particular Congregations and therefore if there be no other instituted visible Church but of a Congregation and Seals in their administration be given to the Church our first consideration will still hold firm But seeing in so vast a subject to say little is to say nothing and there is scarce any Truth in this wilie age but is almost disputed out of countenance and much darkned with humane evasions and seeing much depends upon this controversie it may be so most usefull before we come to the defence of our argument to take into consideration the nature and order of the visible Church of Christ Catholick and particular We are not ignorant of the knots and difficulties of this question which of late have so much exercised the minds of many Godly-learned And we think the notions of a Catholick Church as it is now held being but newly taken up amongst-godly Reformers who formerly ran in another channell as is ingenuously confessed by some according to the truth this new-birth seems not yet so formed to its distinct proportions as time may bring it unto and it might make us afraid being the weakest of many to venture upon so diffuse and knotty a question when we look upon our own insufficiency to such a task and the Learned labors of such in this Point whom we reverence in the Lord yet when we consider of what great weight and moment the clearing up of this Truth would be unto the orderly proceedings of the great Work of Reformation in hand 2 How unavoydably it lyes in our way in this Work the Lord hath called us unto and that he sometimes doth vouchsafe to speak by weak ones that the praise may be his own in hope of his blessed guidance which we depend upon herein taking the light of his Word in our hands we shall rather as learners then otherwise venture to propound what is suggested to us herein Concerning which having digressed a while we shall return we hope with some advantage of clearer evidence to justifie the first argument of the Answer against what is said in the Reply CHAP. V. A digression tending to clear the state of that controversie concerning a Catholick visible Church in respect of the nature unity visibility and priority of the same THe world hath been long troubled with the equivocation of the word Church and therefore as it is needfull we shall labor to set down our thoughts as distinctly and plainly as we can in certain Propositions that may be some ground of our discourse Proposition 1 The true Church of God is the whole number of Elect and called ones out of the world to fellowship with Jesus Christ their Head with whom they make up one mysticall body Ephes 1.23 This whole Church is of the same nature and one in essence from the beginning of the world to the end for this Church Christ laid down his life Ephes 5.26 Joh. 10.15 and therefore he adds vers 16. such as are not yet of his fold actually shall be brought into the same viz. by effectuall calling that there may be one Shepheard and one sheepfold wherby it appears that the whole fold of Christ to which he stands as one Shepheard contains all his members and sheep to the end of the world and it is one fold in relation to Christ that one Shepheard Proposition 2 This one entire body of Christ doth naturally fall under various notions and considerations as omitting others when it is considered according to the adjuncts of visibility and invisibility which are onely adjuncts of the same Church as is generally observed by Divines In respect of the inward union which every such member hath with Christ the Head by the Spirit of Christ and by Faith whereby we are united to him it is called invisible because this union is not visible to men In respects of some visible fruits and manifestations of faith to the judgment of men it is called visible and hence though true beleevers be onely univoce and properly members of this body of Christ yet to men that judge onely by outward effects many hypocrites equivoce and improperly are accounted of the Church and hence the Scripture frequently speaks of visible Churches as if they were all really Saints Proposition 3 As this Church comes to be visible so it becomes a fit and capable subject of visible policy and visible communion with Christ their Head and one with another in all the visible ordinances of Christ a capable subject we say or matter fit for such a state for by its visibility it self it is not so having yet no more then a spirituall relation to Christ and one another no visible combination one with another for visible beleevers may be so scattered in severall Countreys that they cannot make up one Society Proposition 4 And therefore we add That there is no way for this Church to enjoy actuall visible communion under the visible government of Christ and in the visible instituted ordinances of Christ but in a Society A thousand uncombined persons meeting occasionally in one place though their naturall relations were as near as brethren yet have no power of government or actuall communion in any Civill priviledges if they stand not in relation to one another as a combined Society as after shall be shown so here And therefore Acts 2.41 42. first they were added to the Church and then followed their fellowship in all the ordinances of the Church as after will more fully appear And hence it is said Acts 5.14 Beleevers were added first they were beleevers standing in that spirituall relation to Christ and his whole body and then added to the Church by visible combination Proposition 5 There is no visible society of a Church who hath actuall and immediate right unto and communion in the visible government of Christ and the dispensation of his instituted Worship and ordinances but such a Society as the Lord Jesus hath in the Gopel instituted and ordained for that end We say actuall and immediate right unto the same for though a beleever quâ beleever have an immediate right and actuall enjoyment of such benefits of Christ as necessarily and immediately flow from his internall union with Christ as justification adoption c. and such right to Christian communion with all the Saints in their prayers gifts
it and see such superstitious opinions of it increasing and such pressing the same to the oppression of the Churches so many fall so many weak ones stagger and look at the example of their Guides if now when all are called of God to rise up against it with zeal and detestation a Minister godly and able will use any part of it with offence c. we suppose we had cause to fear and leave it doubtfull whether the godly might lawfully joyn with them therein and therefore we desire you to call back your sharp censure of such withdrawing as you conclude this passage withall or else we shal appeal to the reverend Assembly of Ministers and their late and godly Directory herein Reply Fifthly If these and such like scruples make it unlawfull to joyn in the ordinance of Worship we must hold communion with no society under heaven For may not the brethren which hold all stinted Liturgies and set Forms unlawfull say with like reason it is not lawfull to joyn with others inconceived Prayers if they give too little honor to it as conceiving the other lawful or sinfully limiting themselves to one stinted Form though conceived at first by themselves c. Answ We must intreat the Christian Reader still to carry in minde with what tendernesse we offered our selves in this point and upon what considerations we durst not wholly excuse and cleare such joyning as the case now stood and therefore we think these reasonings would be far differing from the case in hand and we would not be taken so as to justifie such rigid principles as these are We heartily joyn in the conclusion that such advancing of small differences would indeed bring all to confusion and we are far we hope from any such meaning If our answer in this or any other passage give just advantage to such separations we are heartily sorry for it but we hope what hath been said will satisfie the ingenuous and Christian Reader Reply Sixthly we have credibly heard that you hold fellowship with professed rigid separatists without acknowledging of their error and receive them as members or communicate with them in the priviledges of the Church though you professe you approve not their opinion or practice and if in godly wisdome you can see grounds to joyn with them we marvail you should be so timerous in this particular Answ Although in many of our Churches we know not that there be any such professed rigid Separatists that reject the Churches of England as no Churches and their Ministers as no true Ministers yet we deny not but some such there may bee in some of the Churches Whence we grant it may follow that we can have communion in Gods Worship with men of severall judgments yet we may be justly timerous of joyning or approving others to joyn in any part of a corrupt Worship in case of scandall c. we think these things have not the same face or shew of reason in them and therefore so long as they live peaceably with us we can well have fellowship with them as we have also with other that think it may be better of the Churches and wayes of it then there is cause in regard of the corruptions thereof so we be not bound to approve their opinions nor conform to any of their corrupt practises Reply Seventhly if to administer in a stinted Form be scandalous to such as separate it is scandall taken not given and we should do it the rather that they be not confirmed in their error the truth be not prejudiced needless scruples occasioned c. Answ 1 This is from the question for we dispute of your Liturgy not of any Liturgy or stinted Form 2 Take in the case in all its circumstances as before declared and it will appear scandall may be given at least we put the case of a scandall really given 3 How far a man in some cases of clear and undoubted truths may do a thing the rather for such reasons though others take offence we will not dispute but if for meat or by use of our liberty by eating of such meat as another accounts unclean we may destroy the work of God and therefore must not eat flesh nor drink wine nor any thing whereby a brother stumble c. Rom. 14 14 15 20 21. how dangerous then to use such corrupt Forms of Worship or any part thereof so much the rather when a weak brother stumbles at them we leave it to the Christian Reader to judge we doubt it will not agree with the rules of charity prescribed Rom. 14. 1 Cor. 8. CHAP. III. 3 Position That the children of godly and approved Christians are not to be baptized untill their Parents be set members of some particular Congregation 4 That the Parents themselves though of approved piety are not to be received to the Lords-supper untill they be admitted as set members Reply WHat is here premised to prevent mistakes doth seem more to raise then to abate scruples You refuse not all communion with all that are not Church-members and so much they professe who formerly have gone for and professed themselves Separatists from our assemblies you doe not appropriate these priviledges of the seals onely to members of your own Churches c. If you mean onely that the Sacraments administred in other Churches be true for substance it is no more then you will confesse of Rome If you deny not fellowship with them in the seals and to receive them to the Sacrament your judgement is against your practise or you exclude the Churches of England from the number of true Churches Answ We see not how such scruples could be raised without great mistake of our meaning our expressions were so plain and distinct For 1 What if some Separatists admit private communion with such yet they reject your Churches and Ministery as null which we doe not And many of them have refused also such private communion 2 We marvail how you could fall into such a mistake as to suppose we onely allow the truth of Sacraments for substance in other Churches when we speak in the same sentence of receiving satisfaction by Letters or otherwise concerning those we admit to the seales which plainly shew we speak of communion with such Churches 3 Concerning fellowship with those Churches we may admit members of them to the seales with us when we cannot always joyn with them in their administrations by reason of some sinfull corruptions wherein we must have actuall fellowship with them as your selves would not joyn in case you must kneel at the Lords-supper 4 Concerning the Dilemma We answer 1 Our practice is not crosse to this profession For such as come recommended from forein Churches and give such satisfaction as is meet we doe receive and such as have wholly cast off all relation to English Churches and live amongst us we have looked at as scattered stones till they joyn some where in a Church and themselves generally
Christ from whom they receive their authority immediately then the power of the Keys is not in the community of the faithfull if as the servants of the Church from which they derive their authority then the Office of a Minister is not the immediate gift of Christ nor the Minister so much the servant of Christ as of the Church from whom he must receive Lawes in whose names he must doe his Office and to whom he must give account Answ This Objection will hold as strongly against any other subject of the Keys that can bee named as Classes Synods or Church Catholick and therefore by this manner of reasoning the Lord Jesus must doe all things immediately himself in choosing Officers c. or else his Ministers must receive Laws doe all in the name of such as he delegates to that work of administration under him and therefore let others look to answer this Objection as well as we Our answer is briefly plainly this the Office is the immediate institution of Christ the gifts and power belonging thereto are from Christ immediately and therefore he ministers in his name and must give account to him 1 Pet. 5. and yet his outward cal to this Office whereby he hath authority to administer the holy things of Christ to the church is from Christ by his Church and this makes him no more the servant of the Church then a Captain by the leave of the Generall chosen by the Band of Souldiers is the servant of his Band. Wee see in this reply here and elsewhere how apt men are to cast this odium upon this Doctrine and to ranke us with Separatists in it but it is easily wiped off and stickes as fast upon the Classes Synods Catholick Church or any other subject of this power Reply If the communitie of the faithfull have to doe in all matters of the body to admit members cast out make and depose Ministers c. by authority from Christ wee cannot see how in your judgement the execution of the power of the Keys is concredited to the Ministers Answ If the power priviledge and liberty of the people be rightly distinguished from the authority of the officers as it ought a dim sight may easily perceive how the execution of the Keys by the officers authoritatively may stand with the liberties of the people in their place obedientially following and concurring with their guides so long as they goe along with Christ their King and his Lawes and cleaving in their obedience to Christ dissenting from their guides when they forsake Christ in their ministrations if there need an ocular demonstration hereof it is at hand in all civill administrations wherein the execution of Laws and of justice in the hands of the Judges and the priviledge power or liberty of the people in the hands of the Jurours Both sweetly concurre in every case both civill criminall neither is the use of a Jury onely to finde the fact done or not done as some answer this instance but also the nature and degree of the fact in reference to the Law that awards answerable punishments as whether the fact be simple theft or burglary murder or manslaughter c. and so in cases of dammages costs in civill cases whereby it appeares that although the power and priviledge of the people be great yet the execution authoritatively may bee wholly in the Officers Reply Fourthly That which you adde that God will not vouchsafe his presence and blessing to an Ordinance but when it is dispensed by those whom hee hath appointed thereunto must be warily understood or it may occasion errors and distractions not a few c. Answ Wee shall not contradict your warinesse in this case for wee acknowledge a presence of God with his Ordinances administred by such as hee appoints though some corruptions bee admixed in the entrance and administrations but wee doubt not the presence and blessing of God is more or lesse according to the purity or corruptions of the administration and participation of his Ordinances but what need there was or use of this note wee see not our words were sound and safe enough but it seemes your tendernesse of the standings of Ministers and Ordinances in England occasioned this warinesse and wee deny not what you say that Gods presence and blessing upon his ordinances dispensed by us gave some approbation to our standing and to his Ordinances the Lord mercifully passing over our many corruptions but this will no way give allowance to the many grosse corruptions and defects which cleaved to our standings and administrations nor to the continuance of any in such corruptions after the discovery thereof Reply Secondly As for the assumption that Pastors and Teachers are limited to a particular Church or society but that flock-is not ever one congregationall assembly meeting in one place neither the bond so straight whereby they are tyed to that one society that they may not upon occasion performe some ministeriall act of office in another congregation or to them that bee not set members of their proper assembly Answ For clearing of the the assumption that wee may give the more distinct answer wee shall take leave to explicate our selves concerning the limitation of the Ministery to the Church which it is like they who drew up the answer had formerly done had the times then been as criticall as they are growne since 1 When we say the Ministery is limited to a particular Church wee doe not so limit it to a Congregation under her owne Presbytery as to exclude from communion in the seales many Congregations standing under one common Presbytery as wee have formerly said we honour the reformed Churches of Christ Jesus and the godly members thereof 2 When wee say the seales are limited to a particular Church or Congregation because the Ministery is so limited our meaning is not of that congregation onely whereof the Ministry is but of any Congregation in generall 3 When wee say that where a Minister hath no power he may not do an act of power this is to be so understood that hee cannot performe such an act as an Officer over them or unto them as to his proper flock the office being as wee said founded in the relation betweene the Church and the Officer such a stated power as an Officer over his owne flocke hee hath not to those of other Congregations partaking in his owne Church or in any act of his Office in another Church yet an occasionall act of power or precaria potestâ—…s charitatively to put forth an act of his Office to those in an other church over whom he is no Officer wee see not but he may but then this act of power is not towards them as over his owne flocke for two things are cleare to us 1. That an Officer of one Church is no Officer over those of an other Church as not being his proper flocke for there being no Office of Pastour at large without power
communion with him as a true Minister of Jesus Christ in the Church he doth belong to as they may do with a member unjustly cast out but til that appeare unto them they cannot so esteem and honor him being orderly deposed but must at least suspend their judgment til the case be cleared Fourthly we answer clearely and plainely to the chiefe scope of the question If a Minister bee unjustly deposed or forsaken by his particular Church and he also withall renounce and forsake them so farre as all Office and relation betweene them cease then is hee no longer an Officer or Pastour in any Church of God whatsoever you will call it And the Reason is because a Ministers office in the Church is no indelible Character but consists in his relation to the flocke and if a Minister once ordained his relation ceasing his Office of a Minister Steward of the mysteries of God shall still remaine why should not a ruling Elder or Deacon remaine an Elder or Deacon in the Church as well all are Officers Ordained of Christ alike given to his Church Officers chosen and Ordained by laying on of â—…ands alike but weâ—… suppose you will not say a Deacon In such a case should remaine a Deacon in the Catholique Church therefore not a Minister Secondly wee shall now consider what is here said and first this language of a Minister in the usuall Church as a particular Church hath union with and is a part of the universall it is an unusuall expression to us and to the Scripture phrase and therefore beare with us if wee fall short of your meaning the usuall Church in England hath beene either the Arch-Deacons Church in the Deanaâ—…ies or Diocesan in the Bishoprick or Provinciall or Nationall but wee hope that there is no such intended here yet to all this and the jurisdiction thereof particular Churches have been subject as parts there But if by usuall Church you meane a Classical Provinciall or Nationall Church wee must intreat better grounds for any of these and therefore wee must confesse our minde and meaning is not so that wee looke at a Minister of a particular Church in any such relation to the usuall and intermediate Church betweene it and the Catholique The second sense therefore we owne and acknowledge as before But whether this be contrary to the judgement and practise of the universall Church wee know not because it is hard for us know what the universall Church judgeth except we could heare it speake or see its practise if the onely head Prophet and Shepherd of the Church Jesus Christ be fit to declare her judgement we will be tryed thereby who we know hath set Elders in every particular Church Act. 14.23 to watch over their particular flock Act. 20.28 but not over any other Church that wee can finde Neither doth this destroy the unity or Communion of the Catholique Church nor of particular Churches one with another as is said for Churches may enjoy brotherly Communion one with another without such stated formes under the power and authority of one another as hath been shewed before Reply For if he be not a Minister to other Churches then are not the Churches of God one nor the Communion which they have together on nor the Ministers one non the flocke which they feed one Answ In what sense is intended to have the Ministers one and flocke one we doe not see If you meane one by one visible Government over the Catholique Church wherein there is a subordination of Churches and Ministers you must at last rise to Oecomenicall Pastor or Councell that must be the supreme which can scarce ever be had If you meane an unity by brotherly Communion in officeâ—… of love and mutuall helpefulnesse of Churches and Ministers without usurpation such an unity and Community is not destroyed and the argument doth not follow Cannot many distinct societies of Townes or Corporations make up one County except the Major or Constable in one Towne be a Major or Constable in others also By this Reason the Deacon of one Church is the Deacon of all or else the unity is destroyed Reply If the Pastor derive all his authority from the Church when the Church hath set him aside what right hath he to administer among that people Answ True but we say he derives all his authority from Christ by the Church indeed applying that office to him to which the authority is annexed by the institution of Christ hence being the Minister of Christ unto them if they without Christ depose him they hinder the exercise of his Office but his right remaines Reply As they give right to an unworthy man to minister amongst them if they cal him unjustly so they take right from the worthy if they unjustly depose him Answ We grant there is a parity in foro externo but as in the call his outward cal consists in the election of the calling and the acceptation of the called to compleat his power of administration Now this by Christ in his Church may be destroyed in a â—…ust censure without his consent but cannot unjustly be wrung from him without his consent therefore he may hold his right till either hee be justly deposed or willingly relinquish the same upon their injurious interruption of the use of his right Reply And whereas you say the Minister is for the Ministery and the Office for the execution and so the Pastor and the flocke are relatives and therefore if their election gave him authority among them to feed their câ—…sting him off hath stripped him of the same power they gave him Answ Wee grant it is so yet the execution may bee unjustly hindred though the right and Office remaine But we may well retort this argument upon the Minister of the usuall or Catholicke Church Thus if the Minister bee for the Ministery and the Office for the execution and so the Pastor and flock be relatives then hee that may justly for ever be hindred of all execution of the Ministery and hath no power to censure his flock or cannot so much as justly approve and admonish them for the same surely hee hath a poore Office and Ministery but such a Minister that hath no particular Congregation that is his flock under his charge may justly be excluded out of all Churches and cannot censure or reprove his Catholique or usuall Church for the same therefore he is indeed no Minister and and hath no Office in the Church of God â—…HAP XVII Position 8. THat one Minister cannot performe any Ministeriall act in another Congregation Reply The Preaching of the Word and publique Prayer in the Congregation meet together solemnely to worship God c. are properly Ministeriall c. Answ Concerning our true sense and meaning in our answer to this Position wee have spoken in the second consideration of the second and third Positions to which wee referre the Reader onely here wee must ingenuously confesse that our expression That a Minister exercising in another Church doth it not by vertue of any calling but onely by his gifts is not so cleare but may occasion stumbling yet the the next words following doe fully expresse our mindes viz. that he doth not put forth such a Ministeriall act of authority and power in dispensing of Gods Ordinances as a Minister doth performe to that Church whereunto hee is called to be a Minister for so hee doth not performe any Ministeriall act with that authority hee doth to his owne which further cleares up our expression in the second consideration viz. that he is a Pastor of none but his proper flocke although some acts of his Office may extend beyond his owne flocke as we have shewed before and therefore in this sense we may still conclude that if the question be put to any Minister so exercising in another church which was once put to our Saviour By what authority dost thou these things let him study how to give an answer for wee have not yet learned it from this Reply We confesse there are some godly learned servants of Christ who possibly may bee otherwise minded and thinke that a Minister preaching in another Congregation doth it onely as a gifted man as the Refuter of Doctor Downam with others in former times of Reformation beleeved also But we desire that if any difference appeare herein it may bee no prejudice to the same cause for substance wee maintaine if by sundry lines wee all meet at last in the same point FINIS Vid Pet. Mart. Loc. Com. de Excom Brins Watch part 3. capâ—… 10. Jun. lib. 1. paral 6. G. Apol. cap. 7. Q. 2. Ibid. p. 138. Peter Martyr in 1 Kings 12. verse 31. Pet. Mart. Com. Loc. de Idol in praeâ—… l. 1. Iohn 2.15 16. Conc. Miliv Can. 12. Tertull. Apol. cap. 30. Vid. Chemnit Ex. de Innoc. Sanctorum Vid. Birth of Heresies out of Elasopolitans Comment Pet. Mart. loc â—…om de Idol Whit. de Eccle. 1 Cor. 15.47 Vid. Brightm An. in Loc. Cypr. lib. 3. Epist 13. Cypr. lib. 4. Epist 7. * Right of Presbyt pag. 482. Page 22. Page 68. Tertul. lib. 4. Com. Mar. * Calvin Epist 332. Chamier de Euchar cap. 13. Reply To the second Consideration of the Answer Pet Mart. de Excom Loc. Com. * Officiall Lib. 1. cap. 6.7 Rev. 2.2 and 3.9 Acts 2 38.8 â—…7 19 17 18 â—… Cham de Bap. lib. 5. cap. 1â—…
c. yet should leave our accommodations and comforts should forsake our dearest relations Parents brethren Sisters Christian friends and acquaintances over looke all the dangers and difficulties of the vast Seas the thought whereof was a terrour to many and all this to go to a Wildernesse where wee could forecast nothing but care and temptations onely in hopes of enjoying Christ in his Ordinances in the fellowship of his people was this from a stupid senslesnesse or desperate carelesnesse what became of us or ours or want of naturall affections to our deare Countrey or nearest relations No surely with what bowells of compassion to our deare Countrey with what heart-breaking affections to our deare relations and Christian friends many of us at least came away the Lord is witnesse What shall we say of the singular Providence of God bringing so many Ship-loads of his people through so many dangers as upon Eagles wings with so much safety from yeare to yeare The fatherly care of our God in feeding and cloathing so many in a Wildernesse giving such healthfulnesse and great increase of posterity what shall wee say of the Worke it selfe of the kingdome of Christ and the form of a Common-wealth erected in a Wildernesse and in so few yeares brought to that state that scarce the like can bee seen in any of our English Colonies in the richest places of this America after many more years standing That the Lord hath carryed the spirits of so many of his people through all their toylsome labour wants difficulties losses c. with such a measure of chearfulnesse and contentation But above all wee must acknowledge the singular pity and mercies of our God that hath done all this and much more for a people so unworthy so sinfull that by murmurings of many unfaithfulnesse in promises oppressions and other evils which are found among us have so dishonoured his Majesty exposed his worke here to much scandall and obloquie for which wee have cause for ever to bee ashamed that the Lord should yet owne us and rather correct us in mercy then cast us off in displeasure and scatter us in this Wildernesse which gives us cause with Mich. 7. to say Who is a God like our God that pardoneth iniquities and passeth by the transgressions of the remnant of his heritage even because he delighteth in mercy Though we be a people of many weaknesses and wants yet wee acknowledge our God to have been to us a God of many mercies in respect of that sweet peace which he hath taken away from so many Nations yet continuing the same to us in respect also of that liberty wee have in Gods house the blessed Ministery of the Word the sweet unity and communion of Gods Churches and Ministers increase and multiplication of Churches Christian government in the Common-wealth and many other mercies wee enjoy but especially the gracious presence of Christ to many of our soules in all these But wee will not insist much upon this subject being perswaded it is in the consciences and hearts of many of our dear Countrey-men to thinke that we should be an object of love and tendernesse to that State and people by whose Laws and unkind usages we were driven out into a wildernesse rather then to bee judged as desertors of our Brethren and the Cause of Christ in hand with whom excuse us if we now speak plainly it had been far more easie unto many of us to have suffered then to have adventured hither upon the wildernesse sorrows wee expected to have met withall though we must confesse the Lord hath sweetned it beyond our thoughts and utmost expectations of prudent men But passing by this wee must desire the Reader to beare with us a little in removing that apprehension that wee are the great stumbling block in the way of Reformation which if it were true it had been better we had been driven so farre into this wildernesse as never to have been heard of more Concerning our affection to this blessed worke of a publique Reformation of the Nation in generall and the particular Churches or Congregations of the Land in particular as it is best knowne to God so wee thinke it is not unknowne to men not onely here by our daily prayers for it and sometime solemne seekings of God about it but also we have given some testimonies thereof both by private Letters and the publique motions of some of Gods eminent servants among us tending that way We conceive two things specially in our Doctrine and practise that may seem to bee stumbling blocks in the way of this publique Reformation which we shall here remove The first is our practise wherein wee seem so much to differ from the reformed Churches in receiving to our Churches onely visible Saints and beleevers This we doe freely confesse that our practise and judgement doe evidence this to all that we thinke reformation of the Church doth not onely consist in purging out corrupt Worship and setting up the true but also in purging the Churches from such profanenesse and sinfulnesse as is scandalous to the Gospel and makes the Lord weary of his owne Ordinances Esay 1. And wee doubt not but this was in the hearts of many if not most of Gods servants to desire a separation of the precious from the vile in the dispensing of Gods ordinances and if the charity of some be of larger extent herein then others this hinders not agreement in the maine This day hath discovered what kinde of people are to bee found every where in the Parishes of England Can light and darknesse Christ and Belial agree together Popish episcopall enemies and haters of all godlinesse and reformation cleave together in one Church of Christ with the Saints of God Yet neither our Doctrine nor practise do prescribe and limit the way of attaining this reformation whereby any should justly from our example stand off from concurring in such a publique worke It is true where there is no Church relation but a people are to begin a new constituting of Churches reformation is to be sought in the first Constitution This is our case But where corrupted Churches such as we conceive the Congregations of England generally to be are to be reformed there we conceive that such Congregations should bee called by able Ministers unto repentance for former evills and confessing and bewayling their sins renew a solemn Covenant with God to reform themselves and to submit unto the discipline of Christ By which meanes such as refuse so to doe exclude themselves and others by the severity of Discipline should bee purged out if falling into sinne they remaine impenitent in the same What some particular persons may have said or done contrary to this our profession wee cannot say nor doe we justifie but wee know nothing that hath come from us to the contrary to weaken the hands of godly reformers or to perswade the people to separate from the Congregations if by any meanes they might
bellum prodigorum the day of all the spend-thrifts and of all the vile persons of the Land to have their fingers in every mans coffers and their hands washed in the blood of them whom they have hated so soon as ever any of the Babylonish designes shall take their effect could wee wonder at it And is not this fulfilled in these times which wee wish may well bee laid to heart The second thing which wee conceive may chiefly hinder this closing is that point of Church government which concernes the power and liberties of particular Churches or Congregations and here wee must acknowledge the distance is too great For 〈◊〉 the one side â—…ee 〈◊〉 for either by Treatises or by the Directory for Worship that Congregations are acknowledged to bee compleat Churches especially standing among other Churches or that any power or liberty is given to them to administer Church censures no not so long as they administer rightly according to the rule but all such power is when indeed from the Churches though in words they are perswaded that it is to strengthen them and if this also come down from the Catholick Church and so to lesser Synods the greater part having power over the lesse as it were sure divino it will 〈◊〉 â—…ore at the liberties and power of particular Churches But what here to say of the distance on the other hand wee cannot tell wee see or read nothing but that our deare and honoured Brethren doe freely imbrace communion of Churches in consultation Synods for the brotherly helpe of each other and the weaker Churches yea and in a doctrinall way to declare the will of Christ and to threaten his judgements against such as shall refuse wholsome counsell and withdraw communion from such as wilfully refuse to heare what is propounded according to the minde of Christ And what should we heresay but on the bended knees of our soules intreat our reverend Brethren to consider what power any oâ—… many Churches can challenge 〈◊〉 another to require them to give up their right to them to rule in common if a sister Church purnished with Officers shall refuse the same or what rule bindeth the Churches of an hundred or any such civill division to come into such a combination with those Churches rather thâ—…n others fit but refusing Churches have just reasons to object against such Churches or their Officers We think the more voluntary and free such consociations are the better Here we shall be hold to propound this one thing viz. Why may not the fifth and sixth Articles of agreement publikely professed to the world in answer to the Prelaticall petition obtaine amongst our Brethren that it may appeare to the disappointment of their hopes that the Treaties being downe the agreement would be easie as is there said Viz. Ar. 5. Each particular Church hath her owne power and authority and the use and benefit of all the ordinances of Christ neither is there any thing to be done without the expresse or tacit consent of the Congregation in matters which are proper and peculiar to a particular Church whether in election or ordination of Ministers or in admitting or excommunicating of members Ar. 6. It is in many respects expedient both for the members of each Church whether Ministers or people and for the right governing and well-being of the particular Churches in a Nation professing Christian Religion that besides their particular Assemblies and Elderships they meet by their Commissioners Ministers and Elders in greater Assemblies that matters that concern all the Churches within their bounds respective may with common advice and consent be agreed upon for their good and edification And we hope the Lord may yet have such a mercy for England if the crying sins thereof bee not still impenitently against this glorious shining light of the Gospel persisted in which wee confesse is our greatest feare Godly Brethren wee hope would agree if Englands sins hinder not We confesse it was the saddest newes that this yeare came unto our eares that the Kingdome of Christ is hardly like to obtaine so much jealousie there is lest the discipline of Christ should crosse the licentiousnesse of this age yea that generally there is no more regard of the solemn Covenant especially in personall reformation then if it were never made that many reject the reformations they seemed to desire at the first These with other sad things come to our eares which sadden our spirits Oh England England our beloved England wilt thou not be made cleane when will it once bee wilt thou still return the Lord Jesus graciously striving with thee for to save thee such an unkind answer We will not have this man reigne over us hast thou not yet learned so much wisdom as to kisse the son no not now when he is angry and the sword in his hand That voice of God soundeth oft in our eares when wee thinke of England Put off thine ornaments that I may know what to doe unto thee but for ought we heare the pride of England did never so much testifie to their faces as now when sackcloth and ashes were more suitable The Lord humble the hearts of our deare Countrey-men or else wee feare the yoake of Christ will never be born and how the Lord Jesus will beare and indure that we tremble to think But what doe we thus to take upon us and let loose our Pen so far pardon we beseech you Christian Reader this seeming boldnesse it is our hearty affection to the peace and prosperity of our deare Countrey and the Saints of God in it that have drawn these things from us Say not what calling have these thus to admonish and censure us Censure we doe not that we would doe onely to our selves but faithfully to admonish and exhort in the Lord we hope we may presume Neither have we taken upon us this whole weighty worke of our owne minds but at the request and call of divers our reverend Brethren whose voice herein we looked upon as the voice of God nor have wee accepted that call out of any iust we have to contend or enter the lists of disputation with any Wee love the peace of the Churches and unity and concord with all our deare and godly Brethren too well to have any such ends And though wee are not unwilling to receive and consider any returne that may bee made and we hope with a mind to submit to the truth yet wee must professe Two things chiefly inclined us to undertake this worke First to cleare up such truths as we conceive to bee according to the minde of Christ which were obscured by this Reply Secondly and that especially hoping that what wee should write would tend rather to a peaceable healing of offences and differences then otherwise and therefore have presumed to Preface thus farre and so to present these our affectionate requests to our deare Brethren and Country-men which wee heartily recommend to their serious
the Church in neglecting them to goe immediately to the Classis and yet some of our Brethren at the requests of tender consciences might declare their judgement when no rule called them to write to their Pastors which perhaps were bitter persecutors or if better yet such as they had no knowledge of and if any by such writings did abstaine from the sacrament for such corruptions as their consciences would be defiled with no hinderance from us was in the way but that you might call them to account before the Church and convince and censure them if there were just cause which was the objection against Mr. P. in flying presently to the Classis CHAP. III. 2 Position That it is not lawfull to joyne in Prayer or receive the Sacraments where a stinted Liturgie is used Or as wee conceive your meaning to bee in this as in the former c. viz. where and when that stinted Liturgie is used Reply IF we mistake not your judgement and practise both you have born witnesse against both that you call the rigid separation and this more moderate also and wee humbly wish that the moderate doe not degenerate into the rigid ere long it is very strange if they take not great encouragement upon your grounds Answ If you will needs account not joyning in that stinted imposed Liturgy to bee a moderate separation wee must confesse we have witnessed against such separation yea not onely conformed to that corrupt Worship but also to divers of the Ceremonies thereof some of us with shame before the Lord may confesse it But we desire that may be no prejudice to the truth since discovered to us but wee have ever conceived that the separation witnessed against both by your selves and us have been such as to separate from the Churches of England as no true Churches the Ministery as no true Ministery their separations from corruptions in Doctrine and Worship their endeavour to enjoy all the ordinances of the Lord Jesus in purity if wee bee not mistaken your judgement and practise with ours have alwayes approved and the question now in hand is not about a new kinde of separation more moderate from the Churches and Ministery of England but whether the Liturgy of England be not indeed one of those corruptions in Worship which you and wee had need reject as well as the ceremonies and no longer conforme to the same And wee heartily wish that the growing endeavours of the godly after more purity of Worship and to bee purged from all the pollutions of the man of sinne bee not too rashly branded with the odium of separation and breach of peace and unity of the Church As for degenerating into the rigid separation wee think you need not feare it upon our principles no more then upon the common grounds of Non-conformists and you know what they inferre upon those principles now justly it concernes you to consider as well as 〈◊〉 but as it is truly observed in England it was the justification and pressing of ceremonies and other corruptions that drave many to separation not the endeavour of further Reformation so you may feare the too too much conformity of Ministers to humane impositions and justification of the Liturgie c. have and will more dangerously alienate godly minds from your Churches and Ministery and so drive to separation then all the principles and progresse of the godly in wayes of reformations and wee shall refer it to the judicious and common experience whether the discovery of the corrupt worship in the Liturgy or contrary conformity to it be the greater block of offence and strengthens the hands of the Separatists most which yet you after object unto us Wee suppose the Worthies of this renowned Parliament together with those of the reverend Assembly would not so soone have removed the whole frame and fabrick of this Book nor wholly stopped up this pit if building of battlements about it and keeping watchmen neare it to bid passengers take heed had been the readiest way to cure separation nor doe wee thinke that this reverend man of God would have been in more jealousie and feare of us if hee had considered how tenderly we returned our answer to the question then of those faithfull witnesses in Scotland who separated their lives into the hands of death rather then communicate in the use of this Booke and yet wee thinke they deserve a better place then to bee ranked so neare to the rigid separation notwithstanding for our selves we are heartily thankfull for what he humbly wisheth and for his jealousie over us so farre as it is godly but so farre as such wishes cast a cloud of evill suspition over us in the hearts of others as if we were going faster then we knew where to stay we wish humbly such words had been spared till some other time Concerning this distinction a letter of this subject is cited printed without the Authors knowledge that put a difference indeed between the reasons of the Separatists proper to them qua tales and other reasons used by himself common to others studious of Reformation To which we answer 1 That letter acknowledgeth no such distinction of separation rigid and moderate onely if you will a separation from Churches and separation from the sins and corruptions of Churches which latter is all we professe 2 Those Reasons which the letter ascribes to them qua tâ—…les will wee suppose bee found in their Books thus farre that the Prayers Preachings Sacraments c. are unlawfull because offered in a false Church by a false Ministery for the subjects of Antichrists kingdome That there should be no Separatists in the world because none it is said none plead against the Booke of Commonâ—…prayer as unlawfull because offered up in a false Church is strange to us that this learned Author should not read or observe the same exceeding frequently in the Separatists writings take but a taste in the first pages of Mr. Smith against Bernard in his parallels censures and observations his words pag. 9. are these Hee would prove that an erroneous constitution of a Church is a reall Idol and the prayers they offer with the prayers of the wicked comming from that false constitution are tainted with the Idolatry of that constitution And pag. 10. It is Idolatry to offer up service to God in a Church of a false constitution And pag. 13. Tell mee Mr. Bernard can there be a true Ministery true baptisme true faith true prayer true preaching and administring the supper true excommunication in a Church which is falsly constituted Did the Lord accept the sacrifice of the Church constituted by Jeroboam so page 14. A Church falsly constituted is not accepted of God neither are their actions ecclesiasticall as prayer preaching c. acceptable in the sight of God And againe a false Ministery Worship government may bee in a true Church through ignorance and the like but a true Ministery worship government cannot possibly bee in a
all mankinde is the first subject of all power of Civill government and the priviledges thereof and if so whether such consequences will follow as our Brethren deduce from the unity visibility and priority of the Catholich Church Now we reduce what we intend into an Argument thus If all that can be said from Scripture and Reason concerning the unity visibility and priority of the Catholick Church may as truly be affirmed upon like grounds of the Catholick body of mankinde then á pari it will follow that there is no more one Catholick visible instituted totum that is the first subject of Church power and priviledges in the actuall exercise and enjoyment of the same then that there is such a Catholick body of mankinde that is the first subject of Civill power c. and that actually doth or ought to govern and be governed as one Catholick body in communion but it will appear from Scripture and Reason that the same things may be said of mankind that can be said of the other Ergo. And it is proved per partes thus 1 For the unity are not all mankinde oft in Scripture called the world Joh. 3.16 So God loved the world that is mankinde in the world which is one So frequently all mankinde is called man Gen. 6.5 6 7. I will not strive with man c. yea it is one kingdom Psal 145.11 12 13. which if we view the whole Psalm must be understood of the generall government of Gods providence over all the world and especially mankinde therein 1 Chron. 29.11 12. c. so that all is one kingdom Acts 17.26 God hath made of one blood all Nations all are one blood all have their bounds set by God c. that they might seek him and feel after him and as it is said for one Catholick Church because it hath one Lord one Faith one Baptism one Spirit and are bound to love and pray one for the other c. so there is a like unity here for the whole number of mankinde hath one Lord and King over all God who is King over all the earth called an head over all 1 Chron. 29.11 yea Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings and head over all to the Church Ephes 1.22 All have one Law the Morall Law the common rule of equity and righteousness whereby they are bound to walk towards God and one another and this writ in the hearts of all they have all one spirit of reason disposing them to society and mutuall offices of love one faculty of speaking to fit them for communion one end to feel after God Act. 17. and seek ye good of the whole kinde all ought to love one another desire and seek the welfare of the whole and of one another Esay 58.7 yea the Lord as a common head by the working of his common Providence and out of his love of mankinde hath a common and constant influence into all giving not onely life and breath and all good things Acts 17. but also all gifts of wisdom art skill for Government c. to Kings Judges Fathers Masters and all Officers of Civill government for the good of the whole and what ever else may be said to prove the Catholick Church One may here be applyed And as for principles of reason it is easie to conceive that all mankinde will fall either under the notion of one genus homo whereof the individua are species specialissimae or in another respect all persons all Families Cities Kingdomes may in a sense make one totum integrale or aggregatum Secondly it is as evident that all this number of mankinde are one visibile totum by the arguments used for the visible Catholick Church for that which hath visible parts is a visible totum it holds here as well as in the other case Yea if the Catholick Church be one visible Body because it hath organs and visible Officers in it it will hold here for all mankinde is but one Army of the Lord of Hosts who hath Armies of heaven and Armies on earth and in this Body God by his Providence hath set and by his ordinance hath ordained Fathers Masters Husbands Judges Kings c. to govern in this Body of mankinde for the good of the whole Ruling and subjection by the fifth Commandement of the Morall Law which is in all mens hearts is ordained of God for the order peace and welfare of all mankind and therefore why is not this by the same reason a totum visibile Thirdly for Priority it is clear that as God hath firstly in nature and intention given Christ to the whole Church then to this and that particular beleever and the power of feeding and being fed and governed by shepheards First to the whole race of sheep Secondly to this or that flock So in nature and Gods intention he hath firstly given to the race of mankind power of being governed with Government and Governors before they are given to this or that Family City Kingdom c. So likewise what is said of Promises given to the Church Catholick firstly is it not as true here Those promises and blessings increase and multiply Subdue the earth and inhabite it The feare and dread of you shall be on all beasts and all like promises and priviledges of marriage of liberty to eat flesh c. mentioned Gen. 2. 9. and all over the Scripture are they not in nature first given to mankinde and then to this or that person family City So if Church power and all Officers and Offices be firstly given to the Catholick Church not to this or that particular Church So it 's here when the Scripture saith Submit to the higher Powers for all Powers are of God Rom. 13. By me saith God Kings reign and Princes decree judgment and such like Scriptures doth this firstly belong to this or that Kingdome City c. and not rather that God hath firstly set up and ordained Civil Powers for mankind to be obeyed of all mankinde firstly and then in this or that state Is foederall holinesse first the priviledge of the Catholick Church which in a sense we will not now contradict so is legitimation first the priviledge of married society in generall in all mankinde and then of this or that family Are the members of particular Churches firstly of the Catholick Church and is it not so here the members of every family city c. first and last of the number of mankinde and so when the Societies are dissolved they are still of mankinde and doe not all Societies spring of mankinde and are an additament and increase to it the one is true as well as the other It would be over tedious to follow this parallel so farre as wee might these may be sufficient instances to guide the Reader to apply whatever else is or can be said in this kinde from the common nature and logicall notions under which the Catholick Church visible
exposition of this Text wee have not observed one substantiall ground or approved author to bee alledged Dr. Ames shewing the necessitie of Christians joyning themselves to some peculiar Church giveth this reason Quoniam alias fieri non potest quin conturbentur signa illa quibus fideles ab infidelibus discerni possunt 1 Cor. 5.12 But herein Dr. Ames manifestly sheweth that by them without heathens and unbeleevers must be understood and not beleevers though of no setled society for the time for thus wee conceive hee argueth The signes whereby the faithfull are to bee discerned from unbeleevers must not bee confounded but unlesse Christians make themselves actuall members of a Church the signes whereby the faithfull are discerned from unbeleevers will bee obscured and darkned and if this be his reason how can that Text bee alledged unlesse by men without infidels bee understood Answ First That we have reasons to alledge it in that sense and respect declared may appeare by our answers to your objections Secondly That wee have one approved authour so alleadging it viz. Doctor Ames shall appeare in cleering his meaning from your objections 1. Grant that by men without according to Doctor Ames his reason Infidels be understood by the Apostle yet how shall the signes discerning beleevers from unbeleevers bee confounded by such as joyne not to some particular Church if those beleevers doe not in some respect stand without amongst unbeleevers and the consequence is so plaine that the owne Syllogisme whereinto you cast his argument would have concluded so much if it had been suffered to speake out in the conclusion For in stead of saying except such joyne to some Church the signes will be darkned and obscured the reason rightly concluded would have said fieri non potest it cannot bee but the signes will bee confounded and therefore in his judgement it is unavoidablâ—… that such mix themselves with unbeleevers that are without indeed properly in the Apostles sense Reply Againe Doctor Ames lib. 4. cap. 17. speaking of Infants to be received saith it is required first that they be in the Covenant of Grace by outward profession c. Answ What you alledge here out of Doctor Ames wee confesse sheweth that hee was very large in his charity about the baptizing of Infants extending the same to the child of a Papist c. but it may seeme by some passages that hee understood by profession of faith such as live in the visible Churches and lookes at the child of a Papist as one of a visible Church for substance though so exceedingly corrupt but all this do not disprove that he understood 1 Cor. 5.12 otherwise then hath been said What you alledge out of his second Manuduction concerning the Churches of England we consent unto neither doe wee deny seales to any if they demand them as members of any true Church in England and in an orderly way CHAP. X. Consid 5. Reply TO the first consideration If it bee repugnant to divine institution to admit of approved Christians lawfully baptized walking in the faith members of the visible Churches and partakers of Church priviledges amongst us to the Lords Supper or their children to baptisme because they bee not entered into Church-fellowship according to your order then it is unlawfull though no such evill consequences are to bee feared but if by accident some abuse should fall out the evill is to bee prevented by all lawfull meanes but the faithfull are not to be debarred utterly of the order of God whereto they have right and title by his free grant and gracious institution Answ Wee cannot but still complaine of this liberty which is taken in changing the termes of the question First that clause Members of visible Churches is not in the poâ—…ition nor is it maintained by us in that sense neither doe wee limit Church-fellowship to our order as it is called but acknowledge Churches defective in matters of order as was said in the answer and therefore it is an apparent wrong to us and to the readers so oft to put in such things as are not in the controversie Secondly If it bee unlawfull by divine institution may not evill consequences bee added and if both hold are not our reasons the more strong What needeth then such a Reply Thirdly We have oft granted a remote right but next and immediate we still deny and wee conceive no other order of God in his Churches to prevent such evils then by joyning to the instituted Churches of Christ Reply Seals may bee prophaned when the dispensers cannot helpe it but here is no feare or danger of such consequences necessary to follow for wee speake not of all sorts at randome but of Christians professing the faith intirely lawfully baptized knowne and approved to the wise and judicious visible members of the Churches amongst us sufficiently known to you or orderly recommended c. Answ The feare and danger in this case is more then so farre off can easily bee discerned though the limitations bee good in themselves yet the application of this description in the first part of it would open a doore wider then many can imagine for many such in the judgement even of the wisest comming into this state of temptations prove farre otherwise even your selves being Judges if you were here wee suppose the experience of the discoveries God hath made in these late trials of England amongst forward professors will teach our brethren to consider how many professors may prove here Yet secondly if you add such as retaining their membership in your Churches are recommended unto us by your Churches or by known godly Ministers wee can then according to order receive them and avoid the confusion and inconveniences wee objected Thirdly if also it be taken into the description knowne and sufficiently approved of our selves then the doore is open to them to the communion of the Church and all the priviledges thereof though they cannot settle in the place of their present abode and this way of order would prevent the inconveniences but if wee come to put a difference any other way wee cannot avoid it but great offence will be given to many and the inconveniences objected in some degree at least will follow here with us and it may be much more in some other places Reply You professe high respect to your brethren in Old England but it seemes you judge them insufficient to give you orderly testimony of the sincerity of approved Christians well known and living amongst them which two cannot well agree Answ This Position holds forth no such judgement of the insufficiency of our Brethren in the case neither have we shewed it by rejecting such orderly testimony that we know Reply Wee speake not of such who against light refuse to professe subjection to the Gospell of Christ or to joyne to some approved Church c. Answ Neither doe wee impute that to all that joyne not unto us but our meaning is that under such a
description of approved Christians we shall bee necessitated to admit of some if not many such Reply No question but many have been admitted by the Church who in truth are much too light and some refused who are better deserving then they that cast them off Answ Bee it so that through personall failings and weaknesse of discerning it may and doe fall out sometimes yet this no way hinders but that all lawfull meanes to prevent the same may and ought to be used and this we may before the Lord professe that the purpose and desire of our hearts are as well to embrace the weakest humble Christian as to keepe out the proud Pharisee and wee have seen a gracious presence of Christ in his Churches blessing our indeavours therein whatsoever any discontented persons returning back may clamour to the contrary CHAP. XI Consid 6. Reply TO the sixt consideration this conclusion is not to the question propounded for wee speake of such as cannot not of such as refuse to joyne themselves to the Churches or if they doe not joyne it is not out of contempt or wilfull neglect but for lacke of opportunity or through their default that should admit them but doe not Answ The learned Authour hâ—…re wholly mistakes the conclusion of this argument the conclusion is plaine and expressed with the ordinary note Ergo no christian can expect by the appointment of God to partake in the seales till he hath joyned himselfe in Church-fellowship and in the call of the Minister and this is fully to the question propounded and wee marvelâ—… it should not be observed but the last words of the answer should bee put in stead of it which are onely a secondary deduction from the former as an absurdity which may follow if the other be not granted And yet hence occasion is taken to charge us with injurious and tyrannical dealing toward such as are not admitted which we leave to the Lord to judge of and of us You say you accuse not the discretion of our Churches but impute it to the rashnesse of the zealous multitude but if it were so practised as is conceived the Churches and their guides should shew little wisedome and faithfulnesse to the Lord and the soules of his people Reply When a reason is demanded of your judgement why you debarre approved Christians from the seales and we dislike it you should put this note upon them as if against light they refused orderly to subject themselves to the Gospell of Christ What warrant you have thus to censure what use of this manner of dispute we leave it to your godly wisedome to judge Answ Wee are heartily sorry that this reverend man of God out of a meere and palpable mistake of the conclusion of the dispute should runne out to condemne us for so much câ—…nsoriousnesse of others without cause whether our manner of dispute bee here so without use wee leave to the judicious reader to judge And that wee are far from such censures of godly approved Christians amongst us wee can approve our selves to God and the consciences of many that live amongst us wee doe not say that all who doe not joyne with us doe refuse against light yet wee finde it true too oft that forward professors in England here discover evidently an heart refusing against light to submit to Gods ordinances and therefore wee had cause to say it were unreasonable such should have equall liberty with others Reply In the consideration it selfe there are many propositions couched to be examined the first That none have power to dispense seales but such as are called to the Ministry is freely granted The second That no man can be so called till there bee a Church to call him needeth explication For by the Church you must understand the community of the faithfull as they are one body without officers and such a Church there cannot be without a ministry to call and admit them into Church fellowship Answ This consideration shines with such clearenesse that an impartiall eye may easily see that the truth by sundry diverticâ—…lâ—… iâ—… rather clouded then the argument fairely answered This second proposition being too plaine to bee denied interpretationâ—… are sought but they are rather objections to which wee shall answer in order First though wee grant the Lord ordinarily gathered Churches by the ministry of men in Office as the Apostles Evangelists c. yet not alwayes so as is evident Acts 11.20 2â—… The story of Waldus is well knowne and we suppose you will grant those Waldenseâ—… the name of a true Church Origen when hee was not allowed of the Church to bee a Ministeâ—… yet converted many who died Martyrs The story also of Frumentius is well known with divers others Secondly Ministers by Office are of two sorts either such as are called immediatly or mediatly such as were immediatly and extraordinarily called were before Churches and were called together and begin Churches as the Apostles Matth. 28.20 Act. 1.8 But all ordinary officers that are to administer in a Church doe necessarily presuppose a Church to call them unlesse any will adventure to say in plaine English that the calling of a Minister may bee without the antecedent election of the people and then wee shall finde what to Reply Reply The Apostles â—…aptized not themselves but by the helpe of others and those not called of the people to baptize 1 Cor. 1.17 Answ Bee it so that in Corinth Paul baptized not many but by others yet first we demand By whom did Paul and the Apostles baptize It was either by Evangelists and so it is all one as if the Apostles as extraordinary officers did it or by the Pastors newly chosen and ordained in the Churches newly gathered who might baptize the rest and then the Church was before such officers or else by private persons which is denyed expresly in the Reply to the first proposition Reply The Apostles appointed by election Elders in every City or Church and so there was a Church before Elders but this Church was a society of beleevers by Baptisme admitted into Church fellowship and therefore there must be Ministers to baptize before there can bee a Church to call a Minister For a company of unbaptized men cannot choose a Minister to baptize them Answ Wee see here still how unawares the truth of this proposition and of the position it selfe breaketh forth for the proposition it is fully yeelded and is most plain in the place alluded to Acts 14. Vers 23. And the position is yeelded also for if the Apostles admitted beleevers into all those Churches in the first constitution of them by baptisme which is the very truth wee contend for and was formerly denyed and these Churches were such as chose Elders and therefore were particular Churches and so the cause is fully yeelded Reply A company of converts unbaptized ought to desire baptisme but they have no power to elect one amongst themselves to dispense the sâ—â—les unto the
of right and libertie to chuse their pastour may desire the seales of him that is set over them Answ This objection is easie for in desiring seales of him and submitting themselves to his ministry they doe now choose him however at first they opposed his comming But what is this to what ought to bee in an orderly way whereof wee speake Reply These propositions being allowed for currant a nation or people plunged into Idolatry or Infidelity or otherwise dischurched cannot by ordinary meanes recover into a Church estate wherein they may lawfully and according to Gods appointment desire or expect that the seales of the Covenant shall bee dispensed unto them Answ What should hinder if the whole nation would bee willing to recover themselves into Churches Indeed that is rare to be found that all will affect such a recovery But wee see nothing to hinder but all the nation or so many as are awakened in conscience to bewaile their Apostasie and lament after the Lord having especially the countenance of the supreme magistrate severall companies of Christians may combine in Churches so as may best suite with their edification chuse officers and injoy ordinances Nay è contra our Protestant Divines as Chemnitius Field Brentius Whitacher Luther c. make peoples power of electing their Ministers the best foundation of a peoples recovery of a true Ministry and Church estate Reply The fifth Proposition riseth beyond measure That no Christian can expect by the appointment of God to partake in the seales till hee have joyned himselfe in Church fellowship and in the call of the Minister We conceive you will not say that children and women have to doe in the call of the Minister If some part of the Church doe not consent in the call of the Minister must they separate from the ordinances of worship c. Answ The seeming sâ—…ellings of this proposition will easily full and run within bankes and bounds if it bee received in its true sense and meaning for by the call of a Minister must needs bee understood the voluntary subjection of all Church members to his ministery after hee is called as well as the act of election of him at the first It were irrationall to thinke a Minister is to bee chosen over againe whensoever a member is added to the Church And therefore ouâ—… meaning was not hard to conceive and being so taken women choose their Minister that is voluntarily submit to him being chosen Children are subjected to him by their parents the dissenting part of the Church ought to submit to him being chosen and â—…oe if they remaine under his Ministry and so in all other cases you have or can suppose Reply Here you say people must joyne in the call of a Minister before they can lawfully desire and bee admitted to the seales And another hath zealously affirmed It is a presumptuous sinne to choose an Officer not trayned up and tryed in debaâ—…ing disâ—…ssâ—…g câ—…ying and contriving Church affaires in adâ—…nishing â—…châ—…ting comforting c. Lâ—…y these together and consider how long many a poore soule converted to the faith must bee compelled to wâ—…t Gods ordinances Answ First it doth not answer the profession in the latter thus to joyne us with Mr. Robinson as another of the same sort as it were For such as would gladly receive euery Syllable from us that may dislodge their thoughts of separation in us as wee are heartily desired to bee assured of in the Epistle to this Reply wee thinke would not so closely joyne us with such they would have us parted from and upon so little occasion and to so little purpose unlesse they doe much forget themselves Secondly when it cannot be denied but the choyse of Ministers is in the Church and that hands should not rashly bee laid on any man and Deacons the lowest Office should bee proved and then Minister being found blamelesse yea hee saith and these also proved implying that others also should bee so 1 Tim. 3.10 what fault can be found with the substance of what either Robinson or our selves speake if our meaning and his were but charitably taken If his word bee over-zealous to say it is a presumpteous sin to doe otherwise what is that to us Thirdly For the delay of ordinances if both these be taken together in most cases it need not be long where God affordeth able and fit men for office But if some delay be and that a church want some ordinances and cannot by Communion with other Churches injoy them which is rare yet is it not better to forbeare some ordinances a while then miscarry in so great a worke as the choise of officers upon which the following comfort and good of the Church doth so much depend The demand following is answered in this whole discourse and wee hope not with words but proofes especially in our answer to the Reply in the first consideration neither doe wee see any such difficulty but that such Christians may as easily joyne to such a Church for a time as desire to injoy the ordinances and to sit loose from it for transient members we disallow not Reply If the propositions may stand for good I feare we shal scarce finde that ever in ordinary way the Sacraments were lawfully dispensed or received in the Christian Churches of God since the first foundation of them Answ If they bee taken in their true meaning and in that latitude we intend them wee see no such cause of scruple For what is more ordinary in all true Churches then for people first to chuse their Ministers then to receive the seals at their hands and this hath beene the way of Ancient reformers It is true many corruptions have beene in many true Churches and usurpations upon the right of the people in choosing their Ministers as also in administrations of the Ordinances themselves and oft in the Constitution of Churches But as the maintaining of any truth of God against those corruptions in worship c. doth not argue an unlawfulnesse of the ordinances in such Churches but convinceth onely the corrupt administration of them So in this case to assert the right way of Churches electing officers and injoying Ordinances against all corruptions that have beene in the Churches doth not make a nullity of the Ordinances themselves We may say that this conclusion riseth beyond measure The objections being thus answered we leave the conclusion to the judgement of the indifferent Reader CHAP. XII Reply TO the seventh consideration The practise of the Church of Strangers in London recorded by John Alasco is far differing from your judgment and practise in the point in question For first say they Paul testifieth that the Church it self without exception of any member of it is cleane or holy by the administration of baptisme Answ We confesse the same Reply Secondly They hold Communion with the Church of England as one with theirs Answ The Church of England they call it not but the
English Churches and we deny not the same in an orderly way as they also required Testimony of their piety if any did but present a child to baptisme in their Church Wee have often professed this and by your owne grant most of the approved Christians amongst us are not members of the English Churches having renounced their right of membership and Commuion with the Church they were of there Reply Thirdly This order was observed by them to prevent the impostures of some that pretended to the English they were joyned to the Strangers contra Answ This was not the onely reason of their order for his words are All strangers doe not joyne themselves to our Church yea there are those that avoiding all Churches c. which plainely sheweth they looked further then such according to our practise even their owne country men fled for religion as we are they yet received them not till by publike profession of faith and subjection to discipline they joyned themselves to some Congregationall Church Secondly this sheweth what disorder and abuse of ordinances will follow from such a liberty to admit such as are not joyned to some Church for by this meanes many will neglect all order and discipline if they may but have the seales Thirdly to put all out of question that their practise and judgement in effect was the same with ours in this point note the first question propounded by them Are these Infants which you offer the seed of this Church that they may lawfully be here baptized by our Ministery CHAP. XIII THus farre wee have answered to the Reply made to the considerations in our answer to the 3. and 4. positions Now whereas wee tooke notice of three objections against our first consideration and answered the same It pleaseth the learned authour to take up onely two of them and with much inlargement to urge the same as his reasons against the positions and to apply our answers thereunto by which meanes our answers to the objections briefly set downe may seeme not so apt and full here as they would appeare in their proper places and therefore it will bee needfull for us to inlarge our selves somewhat in answering some passages at least in the reasons as they are here propounded before we come to the Reply Reply Reason 1. That sacred order God hath set in his visible Church c. Answ These words with all that follow whatever they may seeme to carry with them are nothing but a bare denyall of the positions in variety of expressions Reply For first The baptisme of John was true baptisme c. but hee never demanded of those hee received whether they were entered into Church Covenant c. Answ This wee had in substance before and is answered with all the other instances in this first reason in our answer to the Reply to the first consideration and in other places and therefore in vaine here to repeat the same And wee have observed more then once your plaine confession that the Apostles constituted Churches by baptisme even such Churches as they set Elders in by the election of the people Reply The second reason in substance is this because from Christ and the constant practise of the Apostles we learne that such as are called of God received the holy Ghost beleeve in the Lord professe their faith in him with repentance and amendment of life have a right to baptisme and desiring it are wronged if they bee deprived thereof Answ We grant the whole but as it is supposed in due order they must receive it so wee desire no more for wee grant upon these common grounds such have jus ad rem but not jus in re and the immediate fruition of them Reply Thirdly By a lively faith a man hath internal Communion with Christ by profession of the intire faith joyned with conformity of life in righteousnes holinesse and fellowship of love hee is a member of the visible Congregation or flock of Christ though no set member of a free Independent society and baptisme is a seale of our admission into the flocke of Christ not ever more but by accident of our receiving into a particular Congregation Answ This reason stands upon such a sense of the Catholik Church as cannot be found and it was before confessed that the Catholick Church consisteth of all true particular Churches as the parts of it And therefore how can a man be visibly a member of the whole and belong to no part thereof Secondly We deny not but such have a right to be in the particular Church and so to baptisme and all ordinances but as by such profession they are not members of any particular Church so neither have they immediate right to the priviledges thereof without admittance into the same Fit matter such are for a particular visible Church that professe the intire faith c. But it doth not admit them actually thereunto and your owne expression secretly implyeth as much when you say baptisme is a seale of our admission into the Church or flocke of Christ If baptisme bee the seale of our admission then there is an admission thereunto before baptisme but who doth admit and where and when is any admitted to the Church but in particular Congregations Can any bee admitted into a Church that whole Church being ignorant thereof but a man may professe the intire faith and live accordingly amongst the Heathen where neither any Church nor member of it take knowledge thereof and therefore bare profession doth not admit men but make them fit to bee received and admitted into the visible Church Your fourth Reason wee have had twice before and answered the same Reply To our answer of the first objection from the Instances of the Centurion Lydia the Jailour and the Eâ—…nuch First If where the holy Ghost is given and received and faith professed according to Gods Ordinance there none may hinder from being baptized scil by such as have power to baptize them then either such are members of the Church or baptisme is not a priviledge of the Church then it is not essentiall to baptisme in the first institution that it should bee dispensed to none but members of a Congregationall assembly Answ It is freely granted First That baptisme is a priviledge of the Church Secondly that such as professe the faith and have received the Holy Ghost are members of the Church if by Church â—…ee meant the Church mysticall considered as visible though not alwayes political Thirdly that these may receive baptisme by such as have power to baptize them but immediately to baptize them none had power but by an extraordinary call of God so to doe as hath bin formerly shewed But it wil not hence follow that ordinary officers have such a power wanting such extraordinary call because the members of the Church Catholicke having right unto the seales yet the immediate fruition of them they must have by ordinary officers in a politicall body the onely
the word were baptized but withall that they were added to the Church and such a Church as continued stedfastly in the fellowship c. of the Apostles Likewise Verse 47. that the conversion and baptizing of Disciples being omitted the joyning or adding to the Church is put in the stead thereof which proofes as they are omitted wholly in the printed Copy so also you make no reply unto them Secondly by these proofes it might easily have been seene that wee did not looke upon all the Apostles acts in this case of Baptisme as extraordinary but that their first and leading examples were ordinary and in that order wee plead for which if it had been regarded much labour had been saved in this dispute which hath been spent to little purpose And Our second Reason Reply In due order the seales belong to them to whom the grant is given but the grant is vouchsafed to the faithfull and their seed forgivenesse of sinnes c. and the benefits of the Covenant are so linked together that where one is granted none is denyed c. Answ 'T is true the Seales belong to all them by a remote right to whom the grant is given as hath been oft said but not immediate yet in the very propounding of this reason wee may observe two things that doe cut the sinewes of it 1 The limitation of due order which as hath been said can no where be found but in a particular Church Let any shew what order Christ hath put his Catholick visible Church into or where that order is to bee seene but in particular Churches by which order every one is bound to joyne to such Churches as well as to partake in the outward Ordinances of Gods worship which are there onely to be found Secondly it is granted that not onely forgivenesse of sins but all other benefits of the Covenant of grace are linked together and are the grant sealed up in the Sacrament and if so is not visible conjunction with Christ and his Church with all the priviledges of the Church and ordinances of the same part of that grant by the Covenant of grace or of the Gospell wee suppose none would deny it why then should not visible beleevers require and take up this part of the grant as well as the seale of it for sigillum sequitur dâ—…num let them take this gift and the seale is ready for them And this may answer the first part of the Reply about Rom. 4.11 as also all the rest which followes being things so oft repeated and answered before as make it tedious to all CHAP. XIIII Position 5. THat the power of excommunication is so in the body of the Church that what the major part shall allow must bee done though the Pastors and Governors and the rest of the assembly be of another mind and that peradventure upon more substantiall reasons Reply This question is much mistaken for the demand is not Whether in the Congregation matters should be carried by number of votes against God as you interpret the position but whether the power of excommunication so lie in the body of the Congregation as that sentence must proceed in externo foro according to the vote and determination of the major part and so in admissions of members c. and though they have no power against God but for God yet in execution of that power they may bee divided in judgement and one part must errâ—… Now hence the question is moved Whether the power bee so in the people that what the major part determine must stand Answ If our whole answer had been attended unto it is so cleare and full that it could not with any shew of reason bee subject to such a mistake To omit the first part of our answer affirmatively wherein wee cite Mr. Parker as consenting with him In the second part to the position as stated our answer is plainely negative that excommunication is not so seated neither ought to bee so in any of the Churches of the Lord Jesus What followes is our reason grounded upon the last clause of the position because Churches ought to carry things not by number of votes against God as this position implies but by strength of Rule and Reason according to God and for edification 2 Cor. 13.8 2 Cor. 10.8 Now let any judge whether the position doth not imply such an absurdity so oft as things should bee carried by the major vote against the Officers and the rest having better Reasons and therefore wee are apt to think that if the learned author had been so ready to embrace any syllable that lends to dislodge these thoughts of us as leaning to separation hee would have beleeved our plaine negation of this position which indeed is according to our constant practise never following the major part of votes against the Officers but counting it the duty of the Officers in such cases either to satisfie the consciences of the major part or lesser by the rule of the word or to yeeld not to the vote but reasons if they bee stranger or to suspend the businesse and referre to the counsell of other Churches if they cannot agree but a division arise according to the patterne Act. 15. Reply Amongst them that hold the power of the Keyes to bee given to the Church some as Fenner Parker I. D. distinguish between the power itselfe which they give to the Church and the execution which they confine to the Presbytery others give the power of the Keyes with the exercise thereof to the whole body of the Church or if in the dispensation they attribute any thing to the Officers it is but as servants of the Church from whom they derive their authority and here lies the stone at which the Separation stumble and which wee conceive to bee your judgement and practise wherein wee required your plaine answer but have received no satisfaction You referre us to Mr. Parkers Reasons to prove the power of the Keyes belong to the whole Church who are of farre differing judgement from him in the point it selfe and if your judgement and practise bee as the Separation as wee feare you dissent from him and wee from you in these considerations Answ Wee are sorry to see this Reverend man of God so strongly possessed with a prejudicate opinion and feare of our concurrence with the Separation upon what grounds it is not said nor can wee apprehend That neither our flat negation of the position nor our reference to Mr. Parker as concurring with him should give him any satisfaction to the contrary But if that bee the judgement and practise of the Separation which is here imputed unto them viz. That the power and exercise of the Keys is in the body of the Church and what the Officers doe therein is but as servants of the Church from whom they derive their authority if our profession may bee of any use to satisfie wee doe freely and heartily professe to the contrary
are to bee admitted without such a promise includes a necessity the answer speakes onely of expediency and agreeablenesse to rule not to breake off abruptly Secondly the Position affirmes the necessitie of a promise the answer speakes onely of the case in practise as in many cases besides for the watch of the Church reacheth to such particular acts of which wee make no promise expresse in the entrance Thirdly the Position speakes of the Churches leave the answer acknowledgeth onely that brethren removing should approve themselves to doe that which is lawfull and take counsell in such weighty affaires By all which it appeares that wee doe not owne this position in judgement nor practise and therefore in effect our answer doth deny the same and is negative Secondly if the words of the answer bee not full enough because wee see our brethren here runne upon it as a question if such a promise be required and Mr. Rutherford and others take it up as a confessed practise wee doe therefore clearely and plainely deny the position and affirme that wee doe not thinke that none are to bee admitted without such a promise neither is there any such practise in our admissions of members to require such a promise wee onely count such removalls especially of families an action amongst many others whereunto the watch of the Church doth extend to prevent sinne where there is any just ground of suspition thereof and to further the best good of such as are under our charge by counsell prayers c. If any Minister and people of old acquaintance and deare affection or any other Christians cleaving together in love have privatly resolved or agreed together not to part from each others in any Church it is the most that wee have taken knowledge of and wee thinke that hath beene very rare but for any such publick promise Covenant or Church oath as some straining things to the height have called it it is not nor hath been required or practised amongst us this being so there needs no grounds of that which wee practise not Reply First you exclude all such as bee not set members from the seales and yet hinder them from entrance into the Church society because they cannot promise continuance in the place they are resident in for the present here we desire to bee satisfied by the word of God by what you require it c. Answ First We deny not but divers may and doe forbeare to joyne because of their unsettlednesse in the place of their present abode Secondly It may bee in some cases some may be advised by the counsell of their private friends in a Church to forbeare till they be some way setled But that any are debarred from Communion when they desire it because they cannot promise continuance unlesse other just causes hinder it neither suites with our judgement nor practise and if any should practise other wayes wee doe not allow of the same and therefore it 's needlesse to give you reasons of what we practise not Reply Secondly It pertaines not to the whole Congregation to take notice or bee acquainted with or judge of every particular members removall may not a servant remove from his Master to another Congregation or a father bestow his childe in marriage to one of another Congregation but the whole Church must be called to counsell in the matters c. when Churches grow populous they must bee negligent or weary of such a taske and for the present to challenge so much authority over one another is usurpation c. Answ If our answer were but attended such apprehensions of our practise of calling the whole Church to counsell in every such case and all that followes might be spared For thus we say Wee judge it expedient c. That none forsake fellowship and abruptly breake off c. This doth not imply a necessity of calling the whole Church to counsell in every plaine and easie case many times and for the most part such removals are so plaine and free from suspition of abrupt breaking off or forsaking fellowship that there is no need of counsell as in case of servants marriages c. and therefore no trouble to the Church and in some removall of families also the case is cleare and openly carried in the knowledge of many of the Church none scruple it and therefore at the first demand of dismission or letters of recommendations the same are granted but in removall of some members and in the manner of the same there are such difficulties and dangers as neede the prayers and counsell of the Officers and whole Church as is confessed after nor doe wee say it pertaines to the whole Church to bee called to counsell and judge of every particular members removall for they may approve themselves to the consciences of all mediately by advising with some who may satisfie the rest if need be Reply Let it be shewed that ever by divine right this power was committed to the Church and we will confesse it expedient but till then wee thinke the Church over rigid and the members busie bodies c. Answ The rule of love whereby wee are bound to exhort admonish seeke the edification and good one of another and that not onely in generall as of all Christians but as members of so neere relation in one Church body who are bound to serve the Lord with one shoulder Zeph. 3. â—… and to uphold the worship of Christ therein as this doth reach to all the actions and wayes of one another so in a speciall manner to such an action as this iâ—… and we thinke this ground is sufficient to satisfie our practice as wee have declared which may wipe off the aspersion of being rigid or busie-bodies Reply In the multitude of counsellors is peace but over-many counsellors oft causeth distractions and different apprehensions breed delayes Answ Wee grant it may doe so neither doe wee bring all cases to publike counsell but the case may bee such as needs the publike counsell of all and as wee have a gracious promise of the presence of Christ in his Churches who is the counsellour so we confesse to his praise that we finde the judgment of a Church of Saints in matters orderly carryed and gathered up from the various gifts of wisedome grace and experience of many Christians when need is to be a blessed priviledge of Gods people to enjoy and sanctified oft to the great good of his Saints and being neglected and slighted hath been oft followed with sad events Reply The nature of your Church-Covenant inferreth not a necessity of bringing every such businesse to the Church for you binde your selves mutually to watch one over another c. but this essentially tyeth not any man to a perpetuall residence in one place for then even occasionall absence should be a breach of Covenant without consent of the Church Answ We grant our Church-Covenant neither requires every businesse to come to publike counsell nor perpetuall
be joyned to a Church Secondly when a worke of grace is required and desired of those who are to joyne to a Church the meaning is not as if wee allowed none to â—…ee of the Church but reall Saints and such as give demonstrative evidence of being members of the invisible Church for we professe according to the Scripture and generall doctrine of all reformed Churches what ever their practise bee that it is not reall but visible faith not the inward being but the outward profession of faith whence men are called visible Saints that constitutes a visible Church which faith so professed is called visible not in the judgement of certainty from such infallible signes of it as may demonstrate the hidden being of it within but in the judgement of charity which hopes the best â—… Cor. 12 7 in the weakest Christian and meanest profession even when it sometimes feares the worst and is not able at the present to convince the contrary Thirdly this judgment of charity concerning the truth of anothers profession or that which is called the worke of grace is to be regulated by the word which Christ hath left as a compleat rule not onely of faith but also of love and charity to guide both in their acts unto their ends and hence large professions and long relations of the worke of grace though full of exceeding glory when humbly and prudently made wee exact not rigorously and necessarily of all because the rule of charity directs us not so to judge because many Christians may bee drawne to Christ and have a seed of faith yet may sometimes not know it sometimes remember not the working of it sometimes through bashfulnesse feare want of parts nor not trained up under a knowing Ministery not be able to professe it so fully and clearely hence also to keepe out others from Communion out of groundlesse feares that all their profession might bee in hypocrisie wee allow not because no man in his charity is to bee ruled by his feares but by the word hence also to account any unfit for the Church because their hearts cannot close with them or because they like not their spirits speake not with favour or any such like principles and yet can give no rule or convicting argument from the word why thus they doe we thinke is rigour not charity regulated by the word for humane charity doth not make Gods Church but such persons which from God according to the rule of Gods charity is to receive and therefore the rule is to be attended here it is necessary to looke for a ground of certainty to faith but not for charity which cannot bee infallibly certaine of anothers estate and therefore upon a hopefull supposition that the premises their profession is true hopefully onely makes the conclusion The question â—…eing brought to this narrow it will here lye viz. First Whether profession of the worke of grace and faith be not required of those that enter into the Church Secondly With what profession of the worke of grace charity according to a rule is to rest satisfied The first wee thinke is writ with the beames of the Sunne for it is evident that neither the Lord in the Old Testament Exod. 19. or in the New Testament Acts 2. and in other like Scriptures did call for a profession of the Doctrine of faith onely but especially of the worke of faith for when the Lord promised to be a God to his people Exd. 19. Deut. 29. it was not with this condition if they did beleeve his word to bee true c. but if they will heare his voyce and keepe his Covenant which in a prepared people is a manifestation of a worke of grace So when the Apostles were required to goe preach to all Nations and baptize them and teach them looke as they did require such a faith as was saving he that beleeveth shall bee saved so upon the profession thereof they did receive them as also appeares Acts 2.38 which therefore could not bee of the doctrine of faith for that the devils doe and tremble and profane men of much knowledge may doe and yet unfit to bee received and therefore it was of the worke of faith and therefore Act. 8.37 Philip not onely requires faith but a beleeving with all the hearâ—… of the Eunuch and upon such a profession baptized him and hence the Churches erected by the Apostles at Corinth Colosse Ephesus c. are called Saints and sanctified of God in Christ Jesus c. How was it because debito and de jure onely they should be so then all who heare the Gospell though they reject it might bee called a Church for de jure they ought to be so Or was it because there were some that were truely such amongst them and so in concreto are called a Church and body of Christ not onely so for there may be some visible Churches of visible Saints and yet none among them of the invisible Church unlesse any will thinke that to bee of the Church invisible is essentiall to the beeing and title of a visible Church and therefore it was from their profession of saving faith which they maintained being a Church as it was required to the gathering into a Church John Baptist also though hee baptized none into a new Church and therefore might require the lesse yet as he really promised remission of sinnes by the Messiah so hee required that very faith and repentance which might make them partakers of this heavenly benefit and therefore if what hee required they manifested by their profession and confession of sinnes it was not onely to beleeve the doctrine of faith but a saving worke of faith which they held forth And therefore it is not an outward profession of faith according to a Creed which is required for then a Papist is fit matter for a Church nor willingnesse to heare the Word and receive the Sacraments for then heapes of prophane persons are to bee received into the Church but it 's profession of a worke and saving worke of grace which being ever required in the purest times is no novell invention of some more rigidly inclined in these things To the second with what profession charity according to rule is to rest satisfied Wee answer that there is a breadth in charity according to rule and profession of faith being but testimonium humanum or a mans owne testimony concerning himselfe therefore as in the most eminent profession potest sâ—…besse salsum there may bee hypocrisie latent it being no divine testimony so in the weakest profession of the worke of faith potest subesse verum idest there may be truth in the bottome hence man leaving all secrets to God the worke of grace wherewith charity is to be satisfied is one of these two First either with that which is onely verball and appeares to be false by conviction from the word Or secondly with that which appeares to bee reall which however it may bee false
professe their faith againe the visible Church being built upon this rocke Matth. 16.16 18. viz. Profession of the faith of Christ and lastly if there should be no necessity for such a profession yet if this bee desired of the people of God for the increase of their owne joy to see God glorified and Christs name professed and his vertues held forth and for the increase of their love to those that joyne with them why should it not be done before Saints which should bee done before persecutors 1 Pet. 3.15 What is now said we thinke sufficient to undermine what is opposed herein by others and may easily give answer to the three arguments of the learned Authourâ—… from the example of the Church of Israel John Baptist and the Apostles and so cleare up our practise and judgement to the world from the aspersion of our rigidum examen for which we are by some condemned but for further clearing we shall answer to the particulars Now to your Reasons more particularly against this from the Old Testament and the manner of entring and renewing Covenant then Answ Wee answer first when as you say they professing the Covenant promised to take God for their God to keepe the words of the Covenant and doe them to seek the Lord with all their hearts to walke before him in truth and uprightnes this implyeth a profession of a worke of grace Secondly They did not immediately enter into Covenant but the Lord was long before preparing them for it for they were humbled much in Egypt in so much as their sighings came up to God Exod. 2.23 24 25. They had seene the glory of God for their good against Pharaoh and all that Land by many miracles they had Gods visible presence in the Cloud were instructed by Moses concerning the Covenant of grace made with them in Abraham they were mightily delivered at the Red Sea so that they beleeved Moses and feared the Lord and sang his praise Exod. 14.31 Psalme 106.12 They were also instructed againe concerning the Covenant and were to sanctifie themselves three dayes legally which was for spirituall ends and of spirituall use Exod. 19.10 and thus being prepared as fit matter for Covenant they then entered thereinto And they were all of them for ought we know thus externally and ecclesiastically holy though many were internally stiffe-necked blind and prophane And for our parts we desire no more then such a preparation in some worke of grace if appearing though not indeed reall as may make way for Church Covenant among a people now as we see was then Reply When John Baptist began to preach the Gospell and gather a new people for Christ he admitted none but upon confession of their sinnes but we read of no question that hee put forth to them to discover the worke of grace in their soules or repelled any upon that pretence that voluntarily submitted themselves Answ Though the Scripture record such things very briefly else the world would not have contained the Bookes that must have beene written as John speaketh yet he that advisedly considers the case may see the profession of a work of grace in all that were received by John to his baptisme First John was sent with the Spirit and power of Elias to turne the hearts of the fathers c. to cast down every high hill c. Secondly His baptisme is called the baptisme of repentance for the remission of sinnes Mark 1.4 Thirdly confession of sins is ever put for true repentance when there is a promise of pardon made to it Prov. 28 1â—… 1 John 1.9 and therefore when he requires confession of sins was it without remorse or sorrow for it was it not with profession of faith in the Messiah which he pointed unto Joh. 1.29 and required with repentance Act. 19.4 Fourthly did not hee fall upon the Pharisees with dreadfull thundering of Gods judgements for comming to his baptisme without conversion of heart and fruits meet for repentance Mat. 3.7 and this Luke saith hee preached to the multitude Luke 3.7 and whether any were received that embraced not that Doctrine and shewed the same in their confession viz. that their hearts were humbled and that the renounced their high thoughts of their priviledges of the Law c. and professed amendment fruits meet for the same it will be hard for any to prove and thus much is evident on the contrary that Pharesees Lawyers distinguished from the People and Publicans rejected the counsell of God in not being baptized of him and what counsell but that wholesome doctrine of John Luke 7.29 30 Lay all these together and let any whose thoughts are not prepossessed with prejudices say whether this confession was not such a profession of faith and repentance which a discerning charity ought to take for a worke of grace Reply It appeares many wayes that when the Apostles planted Churches they made a Covenant betweene God and the people whom they received But they received men upon the profession of faith and promise of amendment of life without strict inquiry what worke of grace was wrought in the soule so in after ages c. Now the profession at first required of all that were received to baptisme was that they beleeved in the Father Sonne and holy Ghost This was the confession of the Enâ—…uch when he was baptized I beleeve that Jesus Christ is the Son of God Answ Wee cannot but observe how still the evidence of the truth of what wee proved in the third and fourth positions breakes out at every turne when the heat of that disputation doth not hinder for if the Apostles planted Churches and made a Covenant betweene God and the people when they baptized them as the proofes for this Act. 2.38 and 8.37 and 19.17 18 19. alledged in the margent shew then still it appeares they admitted men into planted Churches when they baptized them and the refore the Apostles ordinary and first leading practise and examples are for those Position not against them 2 You grant here that Acts 2. and 8. and 19. there was a profession of faith and promise of amendment of life and so wee must suppose though not expressed for how else could the Apostles distinguish such as gladly received the word from the mockers and others Now let us consider what kinde of profession this must bee by the story it selfe The Apostle Peter in his doctrine presseth three things 1. Conversion or repentance for their sinnes 2. Faith in Christ in those words Bee baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ Verse 38. 3. With many other words he exhorted them saying Save your selves from this untoward generation that is this was the scope of and substance of his exhortation which includes a gathering themselves to the Church Now the Text saith in respect of the first That they were pricked to the heart and cryed out Men and Brethren what shall wee doe 2. They gladly received the word that is
residence in one place neither is it so held by us in judgement or practise Reply You say you bind your selves to no new duties but in the word of truth it is not required neither directly nor by consequence that no member of a Church should remove or occasionally bee absent from his habitation before hee have acquainted the Church whither he goeth and on what occasions c. Answ It cannot but grieve us to see how the Replyer still not content to take all things in the harshest sense but will also winde in other matters into his discourse which may make our practise seeme farre more rigid then it is First hee urges us as if wee brought all cases of remove and the occasions thereof as marriages c. to the counsell of the whole Church Secondly hee would by consequence inferre the like of occasionall absence and now hee weaves in that also as if it were practised by us to require men to acquaint the Church with the place whither they goe and the occasions of their occasionall absence which is farre from us Reply And if such businesse must bee determined on the Lords Day c. Answ Wee deny not but the best Churches through weaknesse and temptation may spend too much time in the most necessary administrations of censures or other affaires but to possesse the world with such feares upon so little ground may argue the authors charity concerning our wisdome and christian care of the Sabbath was not very great Reply As for the Covenant it selfe c. but if yee constraine men to meddle with things that belong not to them and winde them up higher then God would and straine every thing to the pitch you seeme here to doe a godly sober minde may well pause before hee make such a promise Answ If the authour had not strained and aggravated things beyond our mâ—…aning in the answer and our practise this would not have come to so high a pitch to trouble a sober godly mind we are perswaded that generally sober godly minds that have their pride and self-willednesse in any good measure mortified doe count the yoake of Christ according to our practise of this point to bee both easie and profitable neither doe wee require such a promise of any as was said but if any stumble at the fourth branch of the first reason from the nature of the Covenant let us a little here cleare that scruple when wee reason from the nature of the Covenant and branch our reason into foure things it is not to bee so taken as if every one of those foure things were made a distinct promise in our solemne Covenant for the fourth iâ—… but an inference from the three former as is easie to observe and indeed it was never made by us a part of the Covenant or a distinct promise of it either in our judgement or practise If because we extend our watch to the removals of brethren it be taken for granted that we require such a promise it will no more follow then that we require promises in admissions in a thousand cases to which our watch also extends Reply If any shall not middle with every businesse of this kinde as questioning whether it doe belong to him or no or not aske the advise of the whole societie as knowing the most bee unfit to counsell in such a case doth hee breake his Covenant therein and so commit a sinne in a sort like the sinne of Ananias and Saphira Iudge your selves if in other cases you would not censure this to bee an high incroachment upon Christian libertie and a strict binding of mens consciences by humane constitutions Answ To extend our watch so farre as hath been said unto these cases of removalls from a Church to prevent sinne in abrupt breaking off and forsaking fellowship and to prevent the hurt and damage which the sheepe of Christ oft fall into in their unadvised breaking out of the fold the Lord hath placed them in and to further their best good in their removalls whatever is thought of it wee count it no breach of Christian liberty but a priviledge of the Saints to bee under such a watch and therefore if any shall neglect any duty that one owes to another so farre as it tends necessarily to those ends wee may well reckon it as a neglect of our Covenant but because it is offensive to compare this with the sinne of Ananias c. wee intreat our reverend brethren and the Christian Reader to consider that in the answer this stands in the third thing noted in the nature of the Covenant and hath reference to the duties of the Covenant in generall and is not applyed to this particular case by us nor well appliable in the manner here expressed Secondly it is moderated in the answer which saith in some sort hee shall commit that sinne If these things doe not satisfie wee wish it expunged or any other seeming harshnesse rather then offence be given to any Lastly that you may not impute unto us the infringement of Christian liberty herein wee would acquaint all men with these two things First that removals from one towne and Church to another and from full to new Plantations are frequently practised amongst us with consent and approbation Secondly that wee finde in experience that as there is in sheepe a wandring disposition so in this large Wildernesse wherein the Lord hath exercised his people with various temptations by liberties by offers of large outward accommodations by wants and straights by various opinions vented by Satan and his instruments c. In these respects the Sheepe of Christ are so subject many times to outrunnings that wee finde more then ordinary need of care and wisedome in this point of our watch in many cases and many that have broke loose from the counsels of their officers friends and of the Church have deepely smarted for it How said a case is it when some brainsicke master of a family transported with a fancy an odde opinion will needs carry his whole family with himselfe to the griefe and hazard of his godly wife and hopefull children c. from all Ordinances of Christ to a people full of fanaticall errours were it Christian liberty or dangerous licenciousnesse to leave such a man to his owne counsels and not meddle with him Reply May you not heare from your owne grounds that herein you have devised an expedient or necessary rite or custome to prevent the dissolution of the body which never came into â—…he minde of the Lord Jesus the Saviour of his body and in so doing if your exposition hold good you break the second Commandement and to presse customes onely expedient for the time as standing rules necessary for all times and all persons to put that authority into the hands of men which God never put upon them to obliege men to meddle in the affaires of men beyond warrant to binde consciences under so heavy a penalty as