in the ordinary way of Judicature without Bill for so is the present question For the clearing of this I shall propound two things to your Lordships consideration Whether the Rule for expounding the Irish Statute and Customs be one and the same in England as in Ireland That being admitted whether the Parliament in England have cognizance or jurisdiction of things there done in respect of the place because the Kings Writ runs not there For the First in respect of the place the Parliament here hath cognizance there And Secondly If the Rules for expounding the Irish Statutes and Customs be the same here as there this exception as I humbly conceive must fall away In England there is the Common-Law the Statutes the Acts of Parliament and Customs peculiar to certain places differing from the Common-Law If any question arise concerning either a Custom or an Act of Parliament the Common-Law of England the First the Primitive and the General Law that 's the Rule and Expositor of them and of their several extents it is so here it is so in Ireland the Common-Law of England is the Common-Law of Ireland likewise the same here and there in all the parts of it It was introduced into Ireland by King Iohn and afterwards by King Henry 3. by Act of Parliament held in England as appears by the Patent-Rolls of the 30th year of King Henry 3. the first Membrana the words are Quia pro Communi Utilitate terrae Hiberniae unitate terrarum Regis Rex vult de Communi Concilio Regis Provisum est quod omnes Leges Consuetudines quae in Regno Angliae tenentur in Hibernia teneantur eadem terra eisdem legibus subjaceat per easdem Regatur sicut Dominus Iohannes Rex cum ultimò esset in Hibernia statuit fieri mandavit quia c. Rex vult quòd omnia brevia de Communi Iure quae currunt in Anglia similiter currant in Hibernia sub novo sigillo Regis mandatum est Archiepiscopis c. quod pro pace tranquilitate ejusdem terrae per easdem leges eos regi deduci permittant eas in omnibus sequantur in cujus c. Teste Rege apud Woodstock Decimo nono die Septembris Here is an union of both Kingdoms and that by Act of Parliament and the same Laws to be used here as there in omnibus My Lords That nothing might be left here for an exception that is That in Treasons Felonies and other capital offences concerning Life the Irish Laws are not the same as here therefore it is enacted by a Parliament held in England in the 14th year of Edw 2. it is not in print neither but in the Parliament Book that the Laws concerning Life and Member shall be the same in Ireland as in England And that no exception might yet remain in a Parliament held in England The 5th year of Edw. 3. it is Enacted Quod una eadem Lex fiat tam Hibernicis quam Anglicis This Act is enrolled in the Patent Rolls of the 5th year of Edw. 3. Parl. membr 25. The Irish therefore receiving their Laws from hence they send their Students at Law to the Inns of Court in England where they receive their Degree and of them and of the Common-Lawyers of this Kingdom are the Judges made The Petitions have been many from Ireland to send from hence some Judges more learned in the Laws than those they had there It hath been frequent in cases of difficulty there to send sometimes to the Parliament sometimes to the King by advice from the Judges here to send them resolutions of their doubts Amongst many I 'll cite your Lordships only one because it is in a case of Treason upon an Irish Statute and therefore full to this point By a Statute there made the fifth year of Edw. 4. there is a provision made for such as upon suggestions are committed to prison for Treason that the party committed if he can procure 24 Compurgators shall be bailed and let out of prison Two Citizens of Dublin were by a Grand Jury presented to have committed Treason they desired benefit of this Statute that they might be let out of prison upon tender of their Compurgators The words of the Statute of the 5th year of Edw. 4th in Ireland being obscure the Judges there being not satisfied what to do sent the case over to the Queen desired the opinion of the Judges here which was done accordingly The Judges here sent over their opinion which I have out of the Book of Justice Anderson one of the Judges consulted withal The Judges delivered their opinion upon an Irish Statute in case of Treason If it be objected That in this Case the Judges here did not judge upon the party their opinions were only ad informandam Conscientiam of the Judges in Ireland that the Judgement belonged to the Judges there My Lords with submission this and the other Authorities prove that for which they were cited that is that no absurdity no failure of Justice would ensue if this great Judicatory should judge of Treason so made by an Irish Statute The Common-Law rules of judging upon an Irish Statute the Pleas of the Crown for things of life and death are the same here and there this is all that yet hath been offered For the Second point That England hath no power of Judicature for things done in Ireland My Lords the constant practice of all ages proves the contrary Writs of Error in Pleas of the Crown as well as in Civil Causes have in all Kings Reigns been brought here even in the inferior Courts of Westminster-Hall upon Judgment given in the Courts of Ireland the practice is so frequent and so well known as that I shall cite none of them to your Lordships no president will I believe be produced to your Lordships that ever the Case was remanded back again into Ireland because the question arose upon an Irish Statute or Custom Object But it will be said that Writs of Error are only upon failure of justice in Ireland and that suits cannot originally be commenced here for things done in Ireland because the Kings Writ runs not in Ireland Answ. This might be a good Plea in the Kings-Bench and inferior Courts at Westminster-Hall the question is Whether it be so in Parliament The Kings Writ runs not within the County-Palatine of Chester and Durham nor within the Five Ports neither did it in Wales before the Union of Henry the 8th's time after the Laws of England were brought into Wales in King Edw. the 1. time Suits were not originally commenced at Westminster-Hall for things done in them yet this never excluded the Parliament-suits for Life Lands and Goods within these jurisdictions are determinable in Parliament as well as in any other parts of the Realm Ireland as appears by the Statute of the Thirtieth year of Henry 3. before-mentioned is united to the Crown of England By
the Statute of the Eight and twentieth year of Hen. 6th in Ireland it is declared in these words That Ireland is the proper Dominion of England and united to the Crown of England which Crown of England is of it self and by it self wholly and entirely endowed with all Power and Authority sufficient to yield to the Subjects of the same full and plenary remedy in all Debates and Suits whatsoever By the Statute of the Three and twentieth year of Henry the 8th the first Chapter when the Kings of England first assumed the Title of King of Ireland it is there Enacted that Ireland still is to be held as a Crown annexed and united to the Crown of England So that by the same reason from this that the Kings Writs run not in Ireland it might as well be held that the Parliament cannot originally hold Plea of things done within the County-Palatine of Chester and Durham nor within the Five Ports and Wales Ireland is a part of the Realm of England as appears by those Statutes as well as any of them This is made good by constant practice in all the Parliament Rolls from the first to the last there are Receivers and Tryers of Petitions appointed for Ireland for the Irish to come so far with their Petitions for Justice and the Parliament not to have cognizance when from time to time they had in the beginning of the Parliament appointed Receivers and Tryers of them is a thing not to be presumed An Appeal in Ireland brought by William Lord Vesey against Iohn Fitz-Thomas for Treasonable words there spoken before any Judgment given in Case there was removed into the Parliament in England and there the Defendant acquitted as appears in the Parliament Pleas of the Two and twentieth year of Edw. 1. The Suits for Lands Offices and Goods originally begun here are many and if question grew upon matter in fact a Jury usually ordered to try it and the Verdict returned into the Parliament as in the Case of one Ballyben in the Parliament of the Five and thirtieth year of Edward the 1. If a doubt arose upon a matter tryable by Record a Writ went to the Officers in whose custody the Record remained to certifie the Record as was in the Case of Robert Bagott the same Parliament of the Five and thirtieth year of Edward the 1. where the Writ went to the Treasurer and Barons of the Exchequer Sometimes they gave Judgement here in Parliament and commanded the Judges there in Ireland to do execution as in the great Case of Partition between the Copartners of the Earl Marshal in the Parliament of the Three and thirtieth of Edward the 1. where the Writ was awarded to the Treasurer of Ireland My Lords The Laws of Ireland were introduced by the Parliament of England as appears by Three Acts of the Parliament before cited It is of higher Jurisdiction Dare Leges then to judge by them The Parliaments of England do bind in Ireland if Ireland be particularly mentioned as is resolved in the Book-Case of the First year of Henry the Seventh Cook 's Seventh Report Calvin's Case and by the Judges in Trinity-Term in the Three and thirtieth year of Queen Elizabeth The Statute of the Eighth year of Edward the 4th the first Chapter in Ireland recites That it was doubted amongst the Judges whether all the English Statutes though not naming Ireland were in force there if named no doubt From King Henry the 3. his time downwards to the Eighth year of Queen Elizabeth by which Statute it is made Felony to carry Sheep from Ireland beyond Seas in almost all these Kings Reigns there be Statutes made concerning Ireland The exercising of the Legislative Power there over their Lives and Estates is higher than of the Judicial in question Until the 29th year of Edward the 3. erroneous Judgements given in Ireland were determinable no where but in England no not in the Parliament of Ireland as it appears in the close Rolls in the Tower in the 29th year of Edw. the 3. Memb. 12. Power to examine and reverse erroneous Judgments in the Parliaments of Ireland is granted from hence Writs of Error lye in the Parliament here upon erroneous Judgements after that time given in the Parliaments of Ireland as appears in the Parliament Rolls of the Eighth year of Henry the 6th No. 70. in the Case of the Prior of Lenthan It is true the Case is not determined there for it 's the last thing that came into the Parliament and could not be determined for want of time but no exception at all is taken to the Jurisdiction The Acts of Parliament made in Ireland have been confirmed in the Parliaments of England as appears by the close Rolls in the Tower in the Two and fortieth year of Edw. the 3. Memb. 20. Dorso where the Parliament in Ireland for the preservation of the Countrey from Irish who had almost destroyed it made an Act That all the Land-Owners that were English should reside upon their Lands or else they were to be forfeited this was here confirmed In the Parliament of the Fourth year of Henry the 5th Chap. 6. Acts of Parliament in Ireland are confirmed and some priviledges of the Peers in the Parliaments there are regulated Power to repeal Irish Statutes Power to confirm them cannot be by the Parliament here if it hath not cognizance of their Parliaments unless it be said that the Parliament may do it knows not what Garnsey and Iersey are under the Kings subjection but are not parcels of the Crown of England but of the Duchy of Normandy they are not governed by the Laws of England as Ireland is and yet Parliaments in England have usually held Plea of and determined all Causes concerning Lands or Goods In the Parliament in the 33 Edw. 1. there be Placita de Insula Iersey And so in the Parliament 14 Edw. 2. and so for Normandy and Gascoigne and always as long as any part of France was in subjection to the Crown of England there were at the beginning of the Parliaments Receivers and Tryers of Petitions for those parts appointed I believe your Lordships will have no Case shewed of any Plea to the jurisdiction of the Parliaments of England in any things done in any parts wheresoever in subjection to the Crown of England The last thing I shall offer to your Lordships is the Case of 19 Eliz. in my Lord Dyer 306. and Judge Crompton's Book of the jurisdiction of Courts fol. 23. The opinion of both these Books is That an Irish Peer is not Tryable here it 's true a Scotch or French Nobleman is tryable here as a common person the Law takes no notice of their Nobility because those Countreys are not governed by the Laws of England but Ireland being governed by the same Laws the Peers there are Tryable according to the Law of England only per pares By the same reason the Earl of Strafford not being a Peer of Ireland is
the safe Custody of Sir George Ratcliff they had sent for him and had taken Order in it and touching the receiving of the Examinations in this Cause there should be the same course observed in them as was in the Earl of Strafford Thursday December 31. 1640. The Articles against Sir George Ratcliff by former Order ingrossed were twice Read And then it was Resolved upon the Question That these Articles thus ingrossed and read shall be sent up to the Lords by the Commons Assembled in Parliament in maintenance of their Accusation of Sir George Ratcliff whereby he standeth Charged of High Treason And it is Ordered That Mr. Pym go up with these Articles Resolved upon the Question That a Message be sent forthwith to the Lords to desire a Conference of both Houses concerning Articles exhibited in maintenance of the Charge against Sir George Ratcliff Sir Iohn Strangways went up with this Message It was moved That the House would think of some Answer to the Lords concerning the Charges against the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury and the Earl of Strafford delivered from the Scottish Commissioners at a Conference by a Committee of both Houses Monday Ianuary 4th 1640. Ordered That a Conference be desired with the Lords to morrow morning concerning the state the disorders and dangers of the new levied Irish Army and to present them to their Lordships and to desire them to join with the House in a Petition to His Majesty for the disbanding of that Army The Committee appointed for the Earl of Strafford's business are to prepare the Heads of this Conference and the Members of this House are required to bring into this Committee between this and to morrow morning such Informations as shall come to their Hands conducing to these matters Sir Walter Earle and Sir Iohn Clotworthy are to manage this Conference It was likewise moved That at this Conference Considerations might be had of the great Resort daily made to the Earl of Strafford Mr. Nathaniel Fines is to go up to morrow morning with a Message to the Lords to desire a Conference with their Lordships concerning the Disorders and Inconveniences of the new levied Irish Army And to desire a free Conference concerning those Declarations presented by the Scottish Commissioners against the Lord Lieutenant and the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury as Incendiaries Sir Peter Hayman to go up with this Message The Subject of his Conference to be to present to the Lords that it may be made known to the Lords Commissioners that the Scottish Commissioners be desired to bring in their Proofs against the Lord Lieutenant and the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury to the end the Parliament may proceed to Judgment Tuesday Ianuary 12th 1640. Ordered That the several Petitions of Sir Henry Wallop the Lord Viscount Nettersfield be referred to the Sub-Committee formerly appointed by the Grand Committee for Irish Affairs for the business of Sir Henry Wallop because there is something in those Petitions that will materially conduce to the Charge of the Earl of Strafford Ordered That the Committee appointed to prepare some fit way of Representing to the Lords the four Irish Causes formerly Reported here viz. That of the Lord Mountnorris the Lord Dillon Lord Viscount Ely and the Earl of Kildare do sit Friday Ianuary 15th 1640. Ordered That the Committee appointed to draw up the Charge against the Earl of Strafford shall desire to have the Depositions that are yet sealed up delivered unto them and may add and insert such particular Instances and other Circumstances as they in their Discretions shall think fit to the several Articles delivered in Charge against the Earl of Strafford according to the saving in the conclusion of those Articles and that they present the whole matter to the House on Monday morning next Saturday Ianuary 16th 1640. Mr. Pym went up to the Lords with a Message to this Effect To desire their Lordships That those Examinations which at the Request of this House were taken in the Case of the Earl of Strafford by the Lords deputed to that purpose may be delivered to the Commissioners of this House appointed to draw up the Charge against the Earl that they may make use of them for the enlarging of their Charge in particularities of Evidences according to the Clause of Resolution in the conclusion of the said Charge and likewise to make a Declaration That howsoever by the Course of Parliament this House might proceed with the Charge in general yet to avoid all scruples and to bring the business sooner to a conclusion they do desire to conclude in this way Saturday Ianuary 23. 1640. Mr. Selden Mr. Palmer Mr. Whitlock Mr. Maynard By Order are added to the Committee that are to draw up the Articles against the Earl of Strafford Thursday Ianuary 28th 1640. The further Impeachment of Thomas Earl of Strafford by the Commons Assembled in Parliament was this day read Friday Ianuary 29th 1640. Ordered That the Consideration of the Commission granted to the Earl of Worcester and his eldest Son the Lord Herbert and some Commissions by them granted to others for the levying of Forces in the several Counties of England and Wales and all the Circumstances depending thereupon be referred to the Committee to draw up the Charge against the Earl of Strafford and to consider of the Magazine in Sir Piercy Herbert's Custody Saturday Ianuary 30th 1640. The further Impeachment of Thomas Earl of Strafford was again read and the Title of the Impeachment and every Article and the Conclusion were every of them particularly put to the Question and were every of them assented unto and Resolved upon the Question And afterwards it was Resolved upon the Question That these Articles being engrossed shall be forthwith sent up to the Lords Ordered That Mr. Hambden go up with a Message to the Lords to desire a Conference with their Lordships presently if it may stand with their Lordships Occasions by a Committee of both Houses touching the further Impeachment of Thomas Earl of Strafford Mr. Pym is to manage this Conference and Mr. Maynard is to be Assistant to him Mr. Pym acquaints the House That according to their Command he had delivered unto the Lords the Articles for the further Impeachment of Thomas Earl of Strafford Ordered That the Thanks of this House be given to Mr. Pym and to the whole Committee for the great Service they have done this House in the great pains they have taken in preparing and drawing up the Charge and Articles against Thomas Earl of Strafford Tuesday February 16th 1640. Sir Philip Stapleton went up to the Lords with a Message to desire a Conference with their Lordships by a Committee of both Houses presently if it may stand with their Lordships Occasions concerning the Earl of Strafford Resolved upon the Question That the Heads Reported by Mr. Pym from the Committee appointed to prepare the Heads of the Conference to be desired with the Lords
come to a Resolution so soon as to come to their Lordships for a Conference this Afternoon If they can they Resolve to sit this Afternoon and desire their Lordships to do the like if it may stand with their Conveniency Mr. Peard brings Answer That their Lordships will meet at Four of the Clock Resolved upon the Question That a Committee of the whole House shall hear the Earl of Strafford's Counsel in Westminster-Hall concerning matter of Law Ordered That the House do this Afternoon take the Proceedings against the Earl of Strafford into further Consideration The Committee is to retire presently into the Committee-Chamber to prepare Heads for a Conference to be desired with the Lords concerning the further Proceedings against the Earl of Strafford Mr. Maynard Reports the Heads of this Conference to this effect 1. To take Notice of their Lordships Resolution to hear the Earl of Strafford's Council in matter of Law 2. To put their Lordships in mind of the saving of this House in that Point and further to tell them That if after his Council shall be heard any doubt shall remain with their Lordships they shall be ready to satisfie them in due time 3. That to this end they do intend to send a Committee of this House only to hear what his Council shall say These Particulars raised some Debate in the House and being put to the Question the House was divided upon it but yet after the Tellers were appointed the Noes yielded to the Yeas without telling 4. To desire that their Lordships will be pleased to use all Expedition to put an end to this Trial as much as in Justice may be 5. To desire a continuance of their Care that the Counsel under colour of speaking to the matter of Law ravel not into the matter of Fact Sir Robert Harly went up to the Lords to desire a free Conference with their Lordships by a Committee of both Houses upon the free Conference had Yesterday with their Lordships concerning the further Proceedings against the Earl of Strafford Sir Robert Harly brings Answer That their Lordships will give a present meeting as is desired The Committee that was appointed to prepare Heads for the Conference concerning the further Proceedings against the Earl of Strafford are to manage this Conference and to Report it if occasion be Ordered That the Committee formerly appointed to preserve places for the Committee of the whole House in Westminster-Hall do apply their Endeavours in that Service A Message from the Lords by Justice Foster and Justice Heath That the Lords have sent this Message that they will be set to morrow at ten in the Forenoon in Westminster-Hall to hear the Earl of Strafford's Council in matter of Law Saturday April 17th 1641. Post Merid. Ordered That the House be Resolved into a Grand Committee to take into further Consideration the Bill of Attainder of Thomas Earl of Strafford Mr. Speaker left the Chair Mr. Peard was called to the Chair of the Grand Committee and Mr. Speaker again assumed the Chair Ordered That the Debate of the Bill of Attainder of the Earl of Strafford be resumed on Monday morning at Seven of the Clock Monday April 19th 1641. Ordered That after the Conference shall be ended the House shall again be Resolved into a Committee to resume the farther Debate of the Earl of Strafford and all the Members are required to return from the Conference to the House Resolved upon the Question That the endeavour of Thomas Earl of Strafford to subvert the Ancient and Fundamental Laws of the Realm of England and Ireland and to Introduce an Arbitrary and Tyrannical Government against Law in both these Kingdoms is High Treason The Lord Digbye's Speech in the House of Commons to the Bill of Attainder of the Earl of Strafford April 21. 1641. Mr. Speaker We are now upon the Point of giving as much as in Us lies the Final Sentence unto Death or Life on a great Minister of State and Peer of this Kingdom Thomas Earl of Strafford a Name of hatred in the present Age by his Practices and fit to be made a Terrour to future Ages by his Punishment I have had the Honour to be Imployed by the House in this great business from the first hour that it was taken into Consideration It was matter of great Trust and I will say with confidence that I have served the House in it both with Industry according to my ability and with most exact Faithfulness and Secrecy And as I have hitherto discharged my Duty to this House and to my Country in the Progress of this Great Cause so I trust I shall do now in the last period of it to God and to a good Conscience I do wish the peace of that unto my self and the blessings of Almighty God to me and my Posterity according as my judgment on the life of this man shall be consonant with my heart and the best of my understanding in all Integrity I know well Mr. Speaker that by some things I have said of late whilst this Bill was in agitation I have raised some prejudices upon me in the Cause Yea some I thank them for their plain dealing have been so free as to tell me that I suffered much by the backwardness I have shewn in this Bill of Attainder of the Earl of Strafford against whom I had been formerly so keen and so active Mr. Speaker I beg of you and the rest but a suspension of Judgment concerning me till I have opened my heart unto you freely and clearly in this business Truly Sir I am still the same in my Opinions and Affections as unto the Earl of Strafford I confidently believe him the most dangerous Minister the most insupportable to free Subjects that can be charactared I believe his Practices in themselves have been as High as Tyrannical as any Subject ever ventured on and the malignity of them are hugely aggravated by those rare abilities of his whereof God hath given him the use but the Devil the application in a word I believe him still that grand Apostate to the Common-wealth who must not expect to be pardoned in this World till he be dispatched to the other And yet let me tell you Mr. Speaker my hand must not be to that dispatch I protest as my Conscience stands informed I had rather it were off Let me unfold unto you the mystery Mr. Speaker I will not dwell much upon justifying unto you my seeming variance at this time from what I was formerly but by putting you in mind of the difference between Prosecutors and Judges How misbecoming that fervour would be in a Judge which perhaps was commendable in a Prosecutor Judges we are now and must put on another Personage It is honest and noble to be earnest in order to the discovery of Truth but when that hath been brought as far as it can to light our judgment thereupon ought to be calm and cautious In prosecution upon
had the fortune to have all the Examinations whereupon they proceeded and looked over them all and now I protest and call God to witness not any way as making to me I found the said Lord to have proceeded as Honourably Justly and Nobly to his understanding as any man could do and yet was decryed as much as any man could be And so I beseech Your Lordships to consider me the Kings Servant and that in the Administration of the Commands and Justice intrusted with me I had occasion to give offence to many and that it hath been the ill fortune of those that have been Governours there when they have left the Government not to be so well reported as otherwise they might be Besides There is nothing in this Charge can possibly amount to Treason admit all to be as it is laid though perhaps to a Misdemeanour That if it be no Treason it will fall to be but Misdemeanour and then I conceive it stands with the Justice and Practice of this Court to allow Councel and Witnesses which I am debarred from by the involving me under the general Charge of Treason and having no further time to prepare then since Friday last That though before I durst not say Your Lordships were bound by Rules of any Judicature but stood to Your own Honour and Nobleness and were a Rule to Your selves and herein I take Your Lordships to witness yet since the Gentlemen at the Barr have prest the rules of other Courts I desire leave to offer That in all ordinary Courts of Judicature that ever I heard of where the Criminal party doth Answer and that Answer is not replyed to nor he admitted to make his proof the Answer of the party is taken and confest from which universal Rule of Justice no man can shew him a transgression And therefore since I cannot be admitted my proofs it being impossible to fetch Witnesses out of Ireland since Friday last my Answer I conceive ought to be admitted and the Charge taken as I confest it not as it is on proof Saving to my self that I said I would go on to give the best Answer I could on a suddain professing That if I had had time I am confident through the mercy and goodness of God and the Innocency of my own heart I should be able to clear my self of Treason the greatest Crime between man and man towards His Majesty and towards his People my heart being innocent of it and never having suggestion or thought but for the Greatness and Honour of His Majesty and the Prosperity and blessed Estate of His People all the days of my life and ever desiring the best things and never satisfied I had done enough but did always desire to do better but also of all other foul Crimes of Injustice or Oppression Errours I may have many perhaps my Tongue hath been too free my Heart perhaps hath lain too near my Tongue but God forbid every word should rise up in Judgment against me If every word that 's spoken amiss should be observ'd who is able to endure it for words spoken ten twelve eight or nine years ago to be brought in Judgment of me is a very heavy Case and I beseech your Lordships to turn the Case inward and to tell me if it be not a hard Case to be put upon such an Examination I shall observe further that words ought to be charged within a certain time by the Proviso in the Stat. in E. 6. time they must be brought in question within 30 days as I take it which Proviso stands good in Law but I go now into a Learning that God knows I have little skill of to this I desire my Councel may in due time be heard to open and Plead In the mean time I desire to say that if popular actions must be concluded within a year or two at the most sure words should be questioned within a less time I shall proceed to maintain the truth of my Answer That Ireland is not governed by the same Laws that England is and for that I shall read a few words in my Lord Cooks Learning which God knows I understand not it is in Calvins Case where the words are So as now the Laws of England became the proper Laws of Ireland And therefore because they have Parliaments holden there whereat they have made divers particular Laws as it appears in the 20 H. 6. 8. and 20. and in Ed. Dyer 360. And for that they retain to this day divers of the ancient Customs the Book of 20 H. 6. holds That Ireland is governed by Laws and Customs separate and divers from the Laws of England Therefore in all things belonging to my Charge that came out of Ireland I hope Your Lordships will take along with you the consideration of the Customs and Practices of that Kingdom and not judge me according to that which hath been the Custom and Practice of the Kingdom of England In the second place I come to the words of Ireland being a conquered Nation The words laid in the Charge being that I should say That Ireland was a conquered Nation and the King might do with them what he pleased And first I should do extreamly ill to the Honour of the English Nation and to the memory of divers of Your Lordships Noble Ancestors if I should not both say and think that Ireland is a conquered Nation when here 's mention made in the Laws and in the Acts of State of English Rebels and Irish Enemies certainly there is something in that for till the Kings of England gave them the advantage and benefit of the Laws of England it is well known they were held Irish Enemies and so termed and stiled in all the Records one shall meet withall in these times And that it was a conquered Nation I have very good Authority in the Statute made 11 Eliz. at the Attainder of that famous Rebel Shan Oneale In one part of which it is said That all the Clergy of the Realm assembled in Armagh at the time of the Conquest c. See the Statute Is it then so much for me to say what 's in the Act and is it not for the Honour of the English Nation to say it and it must be said to the Worlds end for 't is a truth And therefore there is no cause it should be taken so hainously or heard with so much displeasure and if I displease for telling the truth I cannot help it He reads another part of it viz. And therefore it is to be understood that King Hen. 2. the first Conqueror of this Realm c. And so it hath been acknowledged in all stories and times and many an English man hath spent his blood in it whose Posterity will be ashamed to view it other than as a conquered Kingdom Nay I believe many Noble Persons are yet living that have bled for it and will take it ill if it be termed less than a Conquest in them
who lived in those famous times and spent their blood in Obedience to their Soveraigns Command So that by these words candidly and rightly taken no manner of ill could come being spoken not with any sharpness or upbraiding but meerly to let them see That being in that Condition they were infinitely bound to the Kings of England who were pleased to communicate to them the Laws of their own Kingdom And so far were they from being taken ill that no man at that time took offence at them For the words The King might do with them what he pleased let them relate to the Conquest and there is no offence in them for the Conqueror might give them what Laws he pleased and yet nevertheless hath been so gracious and good as to give them the Laws of his own People Give me that understanding of the words and then where is the Crime how can it be brought in Judgment against me in it self or be aggravated to High Treason I acknowledge I did speak to the Recorder of Dublin yet some things I am put in mind of which I am forced to deny with a great asseveration That I do not remember the words nay I am sure I never spake them let all the world and a cloud of Witnesses say the contrary when I know in my own heart I did not speak them though I offer not this to Your Lordships to convince your Judgments And on the other side there is nothing that is true but I will acknowledge it with all Ingenuity in the world on the Testimony of any one single Witness I desire that Mr. Slingsby his Servant might be asked whether he was not present when I spake these words and whether then any offence was taken at me in respect of the high manner of my speaking or whether they were not rather extreamly well satisfied Now if Your Lordships take words in pieces and not altogether any man living may be convinced but taking my words altogether though something might be thought harsh yet something gave abundant satisfaction I am upon a mighty prejudice in being denied to have my Witnesses examined upon Oath in these things that are not Treason But they be persons of good credit and I trust your Lordships will believe them as much as if they spake on Oath since I think none of them would say a word to your Lordships which they would not swear Mr. Slingsby being asked Whether he was present when my Lord of Strafford spake to the Recorder of Dublin what he said and what acceptance it received He Answered He was then present being on the occasion of presenting Sir Robert Dixton the Mayor of Dublin that he cannot remember the particular words nor deliver them to their Lordships as they were spoken by the Lord-Lieutenant But he remembers particularly the scope of the Discourse was to ingratiate His Majesties present Government to them That the words were well accepted by several persons whom he spake with and took that Effect that his Lordship was thereupon invited to the Mayors House where divers of the City Congratulated his coming to them I shall now proceed to the second part of the words That their Charters were nothing worth and they bind the King no farther than he pleases and I conceive I may say so still If their Charters be nothing worth they do not bind the King but he may do with them what he pleases In that I desire your Lordships to call to mind what my Lord of Corke said That Ireland was a Conquer'd Nation and the King might give them what Laws he pleased and that the Charters were Antiquated and no farther good than it pleased His Majesty to make them It is likely I confess I might say so and yet not say amiss for it is most evident and clear their Charters are void in point of Law and therefore it is in the King 's good will and pleasure Whether he will make them good or no. And that they were void the King's Council informed me so that they were questioned at Council-Board upon it for divers unlawful Exactions they took under colour of Charters for divers by-Laws that they had made against Law by those Charters for divers neglects of Duties that they ought to do by those Charters and generally for not performing the trust reposed in them by those Charters with that Integrity and Care they ought to do And for the truth of it that many Complaints were made against the Mayor and Aldermen at that Board for neglecting their Duty I dare Appeal to my Lord of Corke I adding this That the greatest part of the Aldermen were Recusants and would never be brought to obey the Order of the Board but stood on their Charters and would be Masters and by that means great Disorders continued And to prove that upon Examination they appeared to be void in Law I desire Sir George Ratcliffe may be admitted to speak on what Grounds those Charters were called in and are now as I think deposited with the Clerk of the Council Sir George Ratcliffe standing charged with High Treason by the Commons of England before your Lordships and of a Conspiracy with my Lord of Strafford and whether it be fit to hear one charged with High-Treason to clear another so charged we Appeal to your Lordships That Sir George Ratcliffe is charged to be a Conspirator with me indeed and in truth I must confess Sir George Ratcliffe and my self under favour are equally guilty of Treason and I hope we shall both justifie our selves but I know so much of him that I am not ashamed to say That I think that Sir George Ratcliffe is my Friend and I wish him well and so I think will all other men I trust in God when they hear him But I conceive Sir George Ratcliffe might be heard in these Points if he be examined as a Witness against me I desire he may be examined as a Witness for me Sir George Ratcliffe is not examined nor at all sworn in the Cause on our Motion and admitted that if they produced him as a Witness they would not deny my Lord of Strafford to cross examine him The Lord Steward declared the sense of their Lordships That Sir George Ratcliffe could not be examined I shall readily obey but yet observe That if it were only matter of Misdemeanor he might be examined though charged But this is my unhappiness to be debarred of my Witnesses because I am charged with Treason in general though there be nothing in particular that 's near the complexion of Treason We desire to observe that this justifies a part of our Charge for the Charter of the Subjects Liberties are as his Lordship confesseth brought to the Council Table and judged there and not to the proper Courts where they ought to be judged the Council-Table having no Power to declare the Validity or Invalidity of Charters from the King to the Subject
For I. He hath heard it said That the King cannot be concluded in any Statute unless he be particularly named and consequently not his Chief Governor For these words No Lord or any other of what condition soever c. Must imply a condition of a Lord or one under a Lord not a condition above a Lord as the Chief Governor is II. He shall not lead or bring He hath neither brought nor lead them into Action for the Sergeant at Armes hath done it though under his Warrant III. It speaks of bringing English Rebels or Irish Enemies or Hooded Men Hoblers Kernes c. But that sending of the Kings Soldiers to apprehend and attach such Refractory Persons should be within the Statute is a Stretching of the words of it very far IV. Notwithstanding this Law the Chief Governor hath alwayes used to assess Soldiers and Practice is the best Interpreter of Lawes and yet his acts have not by this Statute been concluded Treason since they have Compounded for it and they pay a great Rent The Composition Rents paid for their discharge from the assessing of the Army being one of the greatest Revenues before his coming there And if their Lordships will have it proved there be few of the Irish but know it And in Conaught the King may take or leave as he pleases Though he shall not insist on it as desiring never to depart from their Lordships Judgment nor thinking himself more safe in any other therefore freely and voluntarily he puts himself under their Lordships Censure for his Life as for his Death But if he should insist on it admitting all this That it was a Treason by the Statute-Law of Ireland yet he is not Tryable for it here But he makes no use of it to that purpose but had he a Thousand lives he would humbly lay them every one at their Lordships feet He added That it is a very heavy Case that such old Laws as these should be started in this manner when the Practice hath been quite contrary and Kindled to destroy him and his Posterity at a Blow But he trusts God Almighty hath provided better for him by their Lordships Favour and Justice For though the Gentlemen at the Bar are much more Learned than himself yet it may be they are not so well Read in the Irish-Statutes as they be in the English Besides he is most confident he shall make it appear that Statute is Repealed And if it falls in his Judgment their Lordships he hopes will find he had Reason to think what he shall offer might be available and that their Lordships will not be offended if he mistakes the Law and this as in other things he desires the Advantage of by Counsel concerning these Points of Law before he be finally concluded First By the Statute of 8 Ed. 4. ca. 1. and had these Gentlemen seen these Statutes he believes they would never put it in Charge against him Whereby it is Enacted Confirmed and Ratified by Authority of the said Parliament that the said Statute be Adjudged and Approved in force and strength and the said Statute may be of force in this Land from the 6 th day of March next and that from henceforth the said Act and all Statutes and Acts made by Authority of Parliament within the Kingdom of England be Adjudged and Ratified from the said 6 th day of March. This comes in time after the Statute of Treason of H. 6. and Ratifying all the former Statutes of England Ratifies the 25 th of E. 3. in England which is the Statute of Treason and 1 H. 4. which sayes nothing shall be Treason but what is said to be Treason within the said Statute of 25 E. 3. So that nothing can be Treason in Ireland but what is Treason by 25 E. 3. or 1 H. 4. or something subsequent for these being confirmed later do take away the Statute of 18 H. 6. Secondly By the Statute of 10 H. 7. c. 22. and this is a Repeal in Judgements far better then his own The former was for another purpose By this all the Statutes made in England before that time are brought to be Laws within Ireland and all Laws contrary to these Laws are hereby repealed But the Law urged by those Gentlemen is against the Laws of 25 Ed. 3. and 1 H. 4. and consequently is repealed very clearly and the words are these in effect It tells of the Benefit and Advantage that might come to them after the English Laws should be brought in And if any Statute have been made contrary to them the same to be annulled void and of none effect And that it hath been so taken and conceived that that Law is Repealed he hath as he conceives a Judgment in Parliament clearly on his side to clear him as to this Treason That the Deputy hath power to Assess Soldiers in Cases where he shall think convenient It is a Power which God forbid any Many should exercise but with all fair Intention and Mildness that possibly can be and he speaks it not to draw any inconvenience on that Kingdom he being willing to spend his Life for them rather than do them any hurt nor will he carry from this Bar the Remembrance of any thing of their Unkindness in Prosecution he means not them that are Members of this House praeter gratuitas Cicatrices and will never look the worse on them he Vowes to God The Statute is 11 Eliz. ca. 7. Being an Act for taking away Captainship and all Exactions belonging thereunto from the Lords and Great Men. WHereas Most Gracious Soveraign Lady The Lords and Chieftaines of this Realm in the time of desolation of Iustice have arrogated to themselves Absolute and Regal Authority c. For Remedy whereof your Faithful Subjects most humbly beseech it may be Enacted c. That no Earl Viscount Baron Lord c. dwelling within this Realm shall assume c. the Name of Captain of any Countrey except such as hath or shall have the same by Letters-Patents from Your Majesty c. or by the name of Captain or therwise exact for the finding of him or them their Horse Foot of or upon any of your Majesties Subjects Tax Sess Subsidie c. nor shall call togethe people of the same Countrey to Treat Conclude and Agree for making War or Peace c. Sess nor lead the people c. without the Great Seal or Warrant from the Lord Deputy c. upon pain to every Earl Viscount Baron or Lord c. for every time 100 l. of lawful Money of Ireland Whence he inferred that here is a Commission that the Deputy and chief Governors have power to Assess and yet are no Traitors a penalty which they would have spared had they thought that Law to have been in force So that as he hath been free in his heart from any Treasonable designe towards His Majesty or His People and as he hath been innocent to God Almighty within doors so
only excepted as be imployed here c. do hereafter make their personal Residence and not depart for England or other place without privity of Our Deputy any former Letters to the contrary notwithstanding And because We resolve to have this course constantly observed if you shall have notice of any Contemner of this Command Our Will and Pleasure is That you proceed against them in an exemplary way to deterr others And for so doing this shall be your Warrant My Lord of Strafford observed That he might well have hoped that this being required by the Laws of the Land that no man should depart without Licence but it should be penal to him having their own Articles which desire the same thing That by this Proclamation the Power of my Lord of Faulkland was established upon him and the Kings Command for the issuing this Proclamation being justified by the Kings own Letter so that this should not have been laid to him for so great and high a crime as it hath been represented to your Lordships and he trusted that by that time their Lordships thought it not so great a crime as it might at first seem to be That he was not very hasty in issuing the Proclamation he having no interest in it nor nothing to drive him forwards for tho His Majesties Command was bearing date 20 Iune 1634. yet the Proclamation issued not till Sept. 17. 1635. And because all he had said had been turned on him as a crime his Lordship gave this further Answer That there could be no Proclamation made by the Deputy alone he being absolutely restrained by his Commission not to make a Proclamation without the Council therefore he could not be singular in the fault but had the consent of all the Kings Council and for instance in matter of Law the Chief Justices are sitting at the Board to whom all matters of Law are referred and they are answerable for it and are so learned that they could not do things so frequently without good authority and this he offered in excuse of this and all other Proclamations not doubting but it was according to the Laws and Customs of the Land And for further satisfaction that part of his Commission that concerned the Proclamation was read and in this particular he desired leave to offer something more with all Humility that tho none of these were for his justification yet for Reasons of State this Restraint was most necessary for whosoever goes over Deputy while these two great men to term them no worse O Neal and Tir-Connel have Regiments of the most antient Irish Septs serving the King of Spain under their Command it is necessary for him to have an eye upon them for if every one might withdraw himself at pleasure without giving an account it would open all the power and means that possibly can be to distemper that State and certainly if that liberty might be granted he feared it would produce sad events in that Kingdom Moreover if all the Primogeniture and Nobility of that Religion should be suffered to go over to Doway St. Omer and the Jesuites Colledges it was to be feared they should not be so well brought up for the service of the King and Common-wealth as may be desired and therefore it was necessary according to the constitutions of that Kingdom that they shall give an account to the Chief Governor And it was no other than what is practised here in England no man being at liberty to goe hence into France without Licence And certainly said he it is an Account we owe to the King and stands with the Law of nature Pater Familiae may take accompt of his own Houshold and the King being the great Father of the Common-wealth we owe this Accompt to him Therefore he conceived it can be no great offence in him to do this on these grounds and as he recommended the prosperity of that Kingdom and His Majesties affairs there and here to God by his Prayers and good desires so he wishes it might be taken into good consideration that this may be continued as a principal and necessary expedient to give His Majesty that account without which the Governor shall not be able to take just measures of things there His Lordship then observed that something had been observed that was no part of his Charge and therefore presumed their Lordships would not expect an answer to it or conclude him any way in their Judgement guilty of it since the means of giving that satisfaction which otherwise he should have done are now taken away But when they came to be complained of in their proper place he is ready to give such an account as becomes a Just and Innocent man But that which seems to be the foulest of them was that concerning my Lord of Esmond of which he remembred very little but something darkly and if it appeared not as he should say he was extreamly mistaken for what he did not know or remember he would not speak of it confidently and in short the point is this Two men swear that he the Lord of Strafford denied liberty to my Lord of Esmond to come for England Aug. 1638. and that he was kept in Ireland and could not have Licence to come away till April 1639. His Lordship confessed it to be very true and that he remembred my Lord of Esmond desiring to go over was stopped by him a while he being Sergeant Mayor-General of the Army the Army having occasion of motion and that he was sure it was much about the time if his Memory failed him not extreamly but when it came to this time and he had means to produce witnesses he hoped to make this appear besides he was mistaken if he did not very shortly after give him a Licence and that he found not occasion to make use of it and if that was was so all they said was taken away for he afterwards finding it to draw towards winter laid aside the Licence till the Spring at Spring he asked it and had it but in these things not judicially brought against him and to which he could not make certain Answers he hoped he might stand clear and unprejudiced till he may answer positively for himself and then as their Lordships should find him they might judge of him and he should ever most willingly submit to their Judgements and abide it whatever it was And whereas the Witnesse said my Lord of Esmond was hindred because he had no Commission to examine Witnesses my Lord of Strafford said he was able to prove that a Bond was granted him to examine Witnesses And the Witness being accidentally there his Lordship took notice of Gods providence from that and said God Almighty was willing to help and assist him wonderfully in his Trial and that his Goodness to him in this Cause had been a great deal more than he would trouble their Lordships withal at that time but he said he was confident God had
Opinion though he seems to Argue against it Is any thing more familiar than for a Man to seem to be of an Opinion to gain a Reason to confirm that Opinion which he is of and contrary to that he seems to defend by this means to get the strength of other Mens Reasons to confirm his own by Again Is any thing more familiar in private Discourse between Man and Man than when one is so far on that side the Line for the other to go as far himself that he may meet the first Man in the midst If a man meet with one that is as far below as himself is above and shall seem to maintain further than his Reason and Belief carries him to bring the other to moderation Shall this be charged on him as a Treason If words spoken to Friends in familiar Discourse spoken in ones Chamber spoken at ones Table spoken in ones Sick-Bed spoken perhaps to gain better Reason to give himself more clear light and judgment by reasoning If these things shall be brought against a man as Treason this under favour takes away the Comfort of all Humane Society By this means we shall be debarred of Speaking the Principal Joy and Comfort of Society with wise and good Men to become wiser and better our lives If these things be strained to take away Life and Honor and all that is desirable it will be a silent World a City will become an Hermitage and Sheep will be found amongst a Crowd and Press of People and no Man shall dare to impart his Solitary Thoughts or Opinion to his Friend and Neighbor but thereby be debarred from consulting with wiser Men then himself whereby he may understand the Law wherewith he ought to be governed But these be but words all the while and if he shall shew that words of a higher nature shall by the Judgment of an English Parliament be thought not to be Treason Why should he think or imagine or fear that their Lordships will make these indiscreet and idle Expressions of his reach so high as his Head and take the Comfort of his Life and Children from him No Statute makes Words Treason and if the Fundamental Law the Common Law of the Land had made them Treason surely the Parliament would never have set a Mulct upon them This Statute is 1 Ed. 6. cap. 12. as followeth BE it Enacted by the Authority aforesaid if any person or persons do compass and imagine by open Preaching express words or saying to depose or deprive the King His Heirs or Successors from His or their Royal Estate or Title or openly publish or say by express words or saying That any other person or persons other then the King His Heirs or Successors of right ought to be c. These be words of higher nature than those charged upon himself and yet the first offence is made but loss of Goods and Imprisonment for the second loss of Lands Goods and Imprisonment the third time is only made Treason He added That their Lordships will never think these words being flym-flam that pass in a negligent manner betwixt Man and Man shall ever be brought to be Treason And whereas 25 E. 3. hath these words When a Man doth Compass or Imagine the death of our Lord the King The very words are mentioned in 1 E. 6. When a man doth compass or imagine by open Preaching c. to Depose the King And the first Statute provides That if a Man shall compass the Death of the King and be not thereof attainted by open Deed it is not Treason And the Statute of H. 4. and 1 Mar. concurr with this and shew That the intent of these was to take away the danger the Subject might incurr if bare words should be brought against him as Treason And it hath been the Wisdom of their Lordships noble Ancestors and this State that they have alwayes endeavoured to conclude the danger that may fall on the Subject by Treason that it might be limited and bounded and that it might be so understood as to be avoided and he hopes we shall never be so improvident as to sharpen this two-edged Sword against our selves and the faces of our Posterity and to let the Lion loose to tear us all in pieces for if way be given to Arbitrary Treason and to the Wits of Men to work upon it to prejudice or question Life it would be very dangerous And he believes That in this Hall there would be Actions of Treason that would fly as familiarly up and down as Actions of Trespass and therefore since by the goodness of our King and the wisdom of our Ancestors we have been thus provided for why we should entangle our selves into the straights they could not endure but endeavoured by all means to free themselves from the dangers that familiarly follow them he cannot see To the First Part of the 23 d Article concerning the last Parliament the Gentlemen have reserved themselves till to morrow and therefore he shall not need to speak to that and so there will remain nothing for him to Answer but the last part of the Act with the next Charge concerning words spoken at the Council-Board or at the Committee for Scotch Affairs viz. That His Majesty having tried the Affections of His People He was loose and absolved from all Rules of Government and was to do every thing that Power would admit and that His Majesty had tried all wayes and was refused and should be acquitted both before God and Man and that he had an Army in Ireland which he might employ to reduce this Kingdom to Obedience Concerning this particular he says he remembers not anything but what Mr. Treasurer is pleased to speak of And whereas Mr. Treasurer as concerning that part said He loves to speak the truth my Lord of Strafford said He doubts not but he doth for that we should all do he is sure of it But Mr. Treasurer has reversed his Testimony in saying that he will not speak to the very words themselves but to these or words to the like effect and if he be not mistaken and to the best of his remembrance That His Majesty having tryed all wayes and being refused in this extream necessity and for the safety of the Kingdom and People He might do c. And that Your Majesty hath an Army in Ireland which You may employ there he said at first And afterwards which You may employ to this Kingdom And he saith he doth not interpret these words but gives the words clearly and plainly as my Lord of Northumberland hath declared and that it was soon after the Dissolution of the last Parliament to his best remembrance and at the Committee of 8 and he thinks my Lord spake them positively or something to that effect Now whereas he calls in to his aid my Lord of Northumberland under favour my Lord of Northumberland declared no such words but absolutely denies in his Examination that he ever
a true Testimony my Lord of Strafford presently pursues him and lays Imputations and scorns upon him and therefore humbly prayed to be spared else that he might have liberty to justifie himself Whence the Manager observed What it is to fall on Witnesses persons extravagantly when they produce them and therefore desired my Lord of Strafford might forbear it being a great disheartening to Witnesses My Lord of Corke added That my Lord of Strafford accused him to have a Pardon whereas he knows he hath none That he is an honest man and wishes my Lord of Strafford could leave the Kingdom with as much Reputation as himself had left it And for the matter demanded his Lordship said He was at the hearing of the Cause and Voted against the Plaintiff but whether the major part Voted against him or no he knows not Being asked What words my Lord of Strafford said about making a party in that Cause He Answered That he thinks he spake these words He did not think there would have been a party against him for if he had he would not have brought it to that Table for the Petition was preferred to himself Sir Adam Lofius being asked What Sir Robert Meredith told him of his part in the Bargain He Answered That he heard him say He had no Title or Interest in it but only his name used in trust but for whom he did not declare and that was all he said to him The Manager added That they have another Witness to prove that of the majority of the Vote my Lord of Ely but he is sick And so the Manager summed up the Evidence and observed it to be something that my Lord of Strafford should pitch upon the very sum of 500 l. that Mr. Hibbots had by way of increase That the Order was made with an examination of Witnesses on pretence of Fraud where the Lady denied it on Oath and that though it was so great a fraud in the Lady to procure a Reversion for 2500 l. which was sold for 3000 l. and afterwards re-sold to the Lady for 7000 l. and so concluded that it is an Arbitrary Government drawn into my Lord of Strafford's own breast and the Inheritance of a great Estate taken from the King 's Subject without Rule of Law there being a Fine levied but being not retorned as the Commissioners are bound to retorn it he made an Order it should not be retorned and a Lady threatened with doubling and trebling the Fine and one of the Feoffees Sir Robert Meredith confesses it was for my Lord of Strafford And to prove that Sir Philip Persival acknowledged so much Mr. Fitzgarret was Interrogated What Sir Philip Persival said who thereupon answered That Sir Philip had often told him the Purchase was to the use of my Lord-Deputy now Earl of Strafford That he hath had occasion of Conference with him about the Estate and hath sometimes discoursed with him concerning the Estate wherein his name was used That he the Deponent might understand how far it concerned him telling him that the Estate would one day be questioned And Sir Philip protested he never knew of this business till his name was put into it and he came to Seal the Writings and that it was to the use of my Lord-Deputy Some Questions arising about the number of Hands to the Order being in all 14. The Manager observed That more have subscribed than those that gave their Vote being a Cause introduced by my Lord of Strafford That all subscribed the Orders as well those against them as those for them and Appealed therein to my Lord of Cork The Course being when an Order is made to bring it to the Table another day and take all the Hands of them present and he added That their Lordships that are Counsellors know that Course to be used here My Lord of Corke being asked to that Point Answered That he knows nothing of it The Lord Primate of Ireland his Examination was offered and was admitted accordingly to be read being taken 30. March 1641. To the fourth Inter. That when the Major part of the Council-Board go one way and the Minor part another way when the Order is drawn up the Minor part Signs it as well as the Major The Lord-Deputy alledging it to be the practise of the Council of England and he himself had done it but before my Lord of Strafford's coming he never knew it to be so Lord Renula being asked to the same Point Answered That he doth not remember that Order to be of force there till of late years and that my Lord of Strafford hath declared to them that it is the practise of England and when the Major part doth subscribe though others be of different Opinions they are involved in it and must subscribe The Lord Savil desired he might be asked Whether he ever knew that when the Major part did Vote against an Order they did subscribe it The Manager answered That that 's their grief and though there be no such Course yet if it concern my Lord of Strafford he will make it a course Lord Renula being asked Whether he were present at the Council-Table when this Vote was given and what he heard concerning the Vote He Answered That he was not there and he heard very little of it that the most he heard of it was since the coming of this Gentleman Mr. Hoy into England and that to his best remembrance he heard Sir William Parsons now Lord Chief Justice say He was informed the Major Vote went against Sir Robert Meredith And so the Manager concluded the Charge as to the Eighth Article saying That here is a Proceeding for a Free-hold contrary to the Fundamental Laws of the Kingdom contrary to the Instructions in the manner and measure as their Lordships had heard My Lord of Strafford after some time given for the re-collecting of his Notes began his Reply in substance as followeth I will with your Lordships noble permission justifie my self against the Charge of High-Treason exhibited against me Having been blamed by the Gentlemen at the Bar for going to matters not pertinent I shall henceforth keep my self to that within the Charge trusting that the things wherewith I am not Charged shall not dwell with your Lordships to my prejudice but that your Lordships will in your Nobleness and Justice reserve to your selves till in its proper place and kind I shall Answer thereunto conceiving that I am to Answer only to Treason not to Misdemeanor The Charge opened is a Decree given by the Deputy and Council of Ireland to the subversion of the Fundamental Laws and to the bringing in of an Arbitrary and Tyrannical Government Whether it be so or no or whether by any manner of Construction it can be brought as an Argument to convince me of High-Treason I conceive I am to Answer Whether the Decree be in it self just or unjust is not the question but
will come clearly to your Lordships judgments upon the Petition of the party when she shall sue for her Right And when it comes to be Charged upon me as a Misdemeanor I shall give such an Answer as befits me There is nothing in this Charge that can be interpreted Treason for it is but the exercising of a Jurisdiction in the Deputy which he hath Commission for from His Majesty and the inlarging of a Jurisdiction in a Judg I conceive is not Treason The Proofs formerly offered to prove the use and practise of the Deputies which I need not repeat your Lordships being Persons of great Wisdom and once said always said come to my help and assistance in my Charge the question being upon the same Jurisdiction only and that in one particular Circumstance I conceive my self stronger in this Cause than in that of my Lord Mountnorris This Case being of a Petition preferred to me but referred by me to be heard before the Council-Board and the Witnesses say That though they did not know nor remember that the Deputy himself heard Causes alone yet it was frequent for the Deputy to receive Petitions and refer them to the Board So that I conceive I have exercised or done nothing but according to the Practise and Customs of that Kingdom and consequently cannot be made use of as an Argument that I subvert the Fundamental Laws or bring in Arbitrary or Tyrannical Government when I step in the paths of my Predecessors and the practise of other men in the like Cases And that I say as to this Point of Jurisdiction The next Point I am Charged with is That the most part of the Council-Board Voted against it whereas I say in my Answer the most part Voted for it and on that I most humbly insist still and shall make it clearly appear to be so For Proof on the other Side they have only my Lord Mountnorris his Testimony who saies They had 12 against the Order and nine for it And Mr. Hoy saith That an Honourable Person that night told him 12 were for him and nine against him so it must all be one man and one Testimony To prove the Major part was for the Decree there was the Order signed under the Clerk of the Council a sworn Minister who could not draw it up without the plurality of Voices being against the constant practise of the Board to do otherwise That this was the practise I desire my Lord Primate's Examination may be read to the second third fourth fifth and sixth Interrogatories Those his Examinations which were taken in the presence of the Peers and Commons taken this morning being admitted to be read and the former taken in the absence of the Members of the Commons House being declared to be suppressed The said Examinations were read accordingly 2. To the Second he knows the use was to prefer Petitions to all the Chief Governors that have been within these fifty years last but what hath been thereupon he cannot say This my Lord of Strafford observed is to the Jurisdiction 3. It is the received practise of that Board that the Clerk of the Council being a sworn Minister should draw up the Opinions according to the Major part of the Board 4. That he hath not known the Earl of Strafford to have at any time urged or pressed any Member of the Board contrary to his own Opinion 5. That he hath heard him divers times profess he had but a single Voice and that Matters were to pass according to the major part of the Voices of the Board Whence my Lord of Strafford observed That the Clerk of the Council being a sworn Officer is perjured else the greater part of the Board was against the Lady Hibbots Robert Lord Dillon being asked concerning the use of the Board in the Clerk of the Councils drawing up Orders according to the major part of the Votes and what he had observed in this particular Case He Answered That the Clerk of the Council is a sworn Minister of His Majesty and by duty of his Place is to take notice of the Votes and accordingly to draw up the rough draughts of Orders and to present them to the Board to see whether they be to the sense of the major part of the Votes That he was present at the Council-Board when this Cause was Voted but cannot say upon his knowledge it was drawn up according to the major part of the Voices at the Board for he counted not the Votes but that was an inducement to him to believe so because the Clerk of the Council drew it up so and it is the Order of the Board when the major part Votes those that dissent in regard their Votes are involved do commonly Sign and that he had seen some Sign to the Order which had given Vote against the Decree Being asked severally how his Vote passed in this Order and whether the major part did not Vote it whether my Lord of Strafford did not always submit his Opinion to the major part and whether in a Case that concerned my Lord Renula there were eight at the Board and four went one way and four another that my Lord of Strafford would not over-rule it but called in another and desired the whole business might be referred to him whether before my Lord of Strafford's restraint this Order was questioned on this Point for want of the major part of Voices and whether at the signing of it or any time after he heard any Councellor except against the Order His Lorship Answered That he gave his Vote for the Decree that he reckoned not the Votes but conceives the major part were for it that he remembers not my Lord urging any man to Vote contrary to his Opinion or over-ruled it but was content to let it go That he remembers not the contrary but my Lord submitted to the major part of the Votes That in the business betwixt my Lord Renula Plaintiff and one Ormesby he remembers there were but eight men at the Board whereof my Lord-Deputy made one and four fell on one side and four on the other and my Lord Renula was then present as he takes it though withdrawn at the instant and for ought he knows my Lord Renula can say something to it That when my Lord gave his Vote he said He would not take the priviledge of casting the Cause but left it to an absent Counsellor and which way soever he inclined the Cause should go and afterwards that Councellor did Vote against the Opinion of my Lord-Deputy and the Order was drawn up so That he never heard of any Complaint of the Order nor heard of the business till he came to the Board That he doth not remember any Exception taken at the time of the signing the Order nor at any time after Sir Philip Manwareing being asked concerning the matter of the major part Answered That he was present at the Council-Table and his Vote went for the