Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
judgement_n	bishop_n	church_n	presbyter_n	1,645	5	10.1981	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85312	Of schism. Parochial congregations in England, and ordination by imposition of hands. Wherein Dr. Owen's discovery of the true nature of schism is briefly and friendly examined, together with Mr. Noyes of New England his arguments against imposition of hands in ordination. / By Giles Firmin, sometime of new England, now pastor of the Church at Shalford in Essex.	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.	1658 (1658)	Wing F958; Thomason E1819_1; ESTC R209761	90,499	170

say if you will mould your Churches according to those in the Scripture and have divers Elders to carry on the Affaires of the Church why then may we not have one Elder among these who may be a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 suppose a standing Moderator For in those Churches we find mention made of an Angel in Ephesus and the other Churches which seem to imply as much I answer If you doe not make this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 primus Presbyter standing Moderator or what other name you will give him a distinct Scriptural Officer from other Presbyters giving to him a power distinct from and superiour to the power of other Preaching Presbyters whence he shall perform some Church-Acts which other preaching Presbyters shall not or cannot perform so that it be no distinct or superiour power but onely order which is contended for I am well content to yield it being ready to goe with others for peace and unities sake till they come to constitute Officers which Christ never did then I say Hold. But for a standing Moderator one that Durante vitâ modo bene se gesserit shall keep that place let him per me licet For 1. In the meetings of Councils there must be one who must rule and order the affairs at those times a President a Moderator must be reason leads us to it to avoid confusion and this is seen in the synodical meetings of Congregational Elders 2. He who is chosen President or Moderator this Session may be the next and the next we may choose him for one year or two years what Scripture text forbids it why may we not twenty 3. I am so far from thinking it is contrary to Scripture that I think it comes neerest to Scripture I may declare my opinion with submission to better judgements for as for the word Angel mentioned in the Epistles to the seven Churches though I cannot agree to that which that ever honoured and learned Davenant doth gather from it namely Determ 42. the superiority of the Bishop above other Presbyters because here was one in the Church of Ephesus c. which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For what Isidore saith of created Angels Angelus est nomen officii non naturae semper sunt spiritus sed cum mittuntur vocantur Angeli I may apply to this if all true preaching Ministers are sent as they are Rom. 10. then they also are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I think our Divines have spoken sufficiently to take off this yet with favour I conceive that Christ mentioning an Angel in the singular number and reason telling us what must be in all orderly Meetings Councils to avoid confusion there being divers Elders in one Church who had the care inspection and government of it I conceive those Elders had one who for order sake was a President Moderator though he had not power above them as may be proved by other Scriptures that ordered the transactions when they met nor can I conceive it was so for one Session or two but for his life for ought I can learn he that can let him prove the contrary in that he is taken notice of so in a special manner it should seem he was one that was so more then one or two Sessions 4. I verily conceive that error be not offended I pray if I call it so for I humbly conceive it to be so which so soon crept in of one assuming power above other Presbyters took its first rise upon occasion of this Order God's providence so ordering it to leave his own Servants to their wisedom and wills who freely acting made way at last for his Decrees for if the President or Moderator had shifted and changed every Session I cannot tell which way it was possible a Pope should have risen Obj. Therefore away with your standing Moderator you have spoken enough against it Ans Stay not too fast must I throw away every thing that may be or is abused occasio and causa differ much Diotrephes and so other Ministers may abuse their power shall then a Minister have no power over his people Tollatur abusus maneat usus Obj. But for Ministers power we have Scripture for it plainly so we have not for a constant standing Moderator Ans By Scripture Authority we make Officers who have power from Christ immediately I am not discoursing of the making of a Church-Officer and what power such an Officer should have I disclaim this power and order are two things 2. That Text which before I produced I know not what fairer Interpretation can be given of it I can exclude superiority of power by other Scriptures but why an Interpretation of Scripture which crosses no other Scripture nor sound reason and hath such fair probability from the practise of the most ancient should not be admitted especially when a fairer Interpretation cannot be given for my part I know none I know no reason The most that can be objected against me is matter of Prudence But I conceive 1. that which comes neerest to make peace in the Church and doth not cross the Scripture that is prudence 2. That which comes neerest to Scripture Interpretation having the practice of so many ancient holy Men and Martyrs though I know they went higher to give light to it this I call prudence 3. Time will discover which will have most prudence in it whether a Moderator or President changed every Session or a standing Moderator I think now we are out of danger of making a Pope if his time of ruine be so neer as some think Thus I have delivered my thoughts humbly conceiving that a Church so moulded as there may be divers elders in it and amongst these one chosen for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 president or what you will call him for order sake to abide so constantly come neerest to the plat-form of the Churches in the Scripture and in this there is something of the Congregational something of the Classical and something like the Episcopal way such a Church for the exercise of its power being independent as was the Church in Ephesus But to have one Pastor and it may be twelve men to stand alone and to exercise all Church-power when they may associate I desire to see such a Church in Scripture PART II. CHAP. I. A Plea for Ordination To. 4. Disp 9. q. 1. p. 1. I own no Church Officer which is not ordained Nemo ad ordinariam in ecclesiâ functionem sive ad Diaconatum sive ad Presbyteratum c. admitti debet nisi legitimè electus ordinatus Zanch. 4. praec p. ●77 ALthough I am far from Valentia's judgment making Ordination a Sacrament strictly so called yet in this I think he saith true when he would have the word Ordination to be taken from the effect of that Ordinance Quia per Ordinationem aliquis in gradu quodam atque Ordine certo ecclesiasticae dignitatis

answers to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the verse and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 relates to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in v. 22. this being the last act of Paul and Barnabas when they had confirmed and exhorted the Disciples in v. 22. Ordained them Elders in v. 23. they commended them all Pastors and people to God I see Calvin Piscator Cor. a Lap. agree with me making no question of this Interpretation for they pass it over as granted And Musculus speaks my mind clearly Ergo jejunantes orantes quod in coetu fidelium fieri solebat ordinarunt Presbyteros a fidelibus electos observe he puts a difference between election and ordination in this verse post eam ordinationem commendaverunt ecclesiam Domino discesserunt 3. That Text in Acts 20.32 confutes this notion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Follow 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in this Text to the 2. Aor voc med and we shall find 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Acts 14.23 Now the Apostle did not ordain these he calls them Elders and Bishops before and so they were but now taking his leave of them he commended them to God and so he did in Acts 14. departing from the Churches he commended them to God in whom they had believed 4. I cannot yet be convinced but that ordination is an act of authoritative power but commending of a person to God in prayer is no act of such power 5. The Scripture gives us another definition of Ordination as I shall shew afterwards ergo this is not the true definition Thus then I have made it clear that gifts and popular election are not sufficient to constitute a Minister if the Scripture may be judge we may make use of other civil officers to illustrate it more Keck pol. The Athenian Senators were sworn though the people did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So are our Magistrates take a Constable though the Town hath chosen him to that office yet if he shall act as a Constable before he be sworn he is a trespassor and a man may have an Action against him for his so doing There is much reason why the popular election should give the essence here but there is no such reason why it should to a Minister yet here we find in civil officers more then election before they can act I pray let us have order in the Church as well This being dispatched now it will necessarily follow that Ordination is necessary to the constitution of a Minister though I should say no more it is but little I intend to say or need to say for the reason I gave before Arg. 1. First Conformity to the rules of God's house in things pertaining to his house is necessary Ordination of Ministers Stewards pertaining to the house is conformity to the rules of the house of God ergo Ordination of Ministers is necessary The major if any deny they must take away the authority of the Scriptures leave men to their own phantasies which no holy man ever dare say so that I doubt not but that will stand The minor if any deny it must be upon one of these two grounds 1. Either denying that we have any positive rules because we have none but examples which shews how Ministers came in to office But if those examples of Apostles commissioned by Christ to order his house having such a promise of his presence with them be not rules to us then we have no rules at all left for officers coming into his house which were strange defect of wisedom to impute to Christ that he should have a house and no order in it and contrary to the old Church which had rules exactly for their officers coming in Nor must popular election be ever more pleaded for Or 2. They must deny it because officers were made without any ordination which is the thing I desire to see proved from Scripture If we observe the practise of the Apostles after they had received the promise of the Spirit and were now fitted and sent forth to act with that Spirit guiding them we find that thus they did set Deacons in the house of God Acts 6.6 Obj. But it is objected That here was no ordination to any office at all there were persons before who did this work that we suppose the Deacons should these men were appointed only for that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 necessity in v. 3. that is to end that difference which arose in v. 1. 1. A. It is true there were some who did distribute the goods of the Church to the poor c. who those were I think Chap. 4. v. ult will tell us They laid the money at the Apostles feet Whence it is clear to me that the Apostles had this burden upon them also compare the verse with chap. 6.2 and this they found a great hinderance to them in their preaching work so that both they could not tend whence by the Spirit they were guided to Institute the Deacon Upon search I find other men of my mind a Inst l. 4. c. 3.9 Calvin b Exam. Con. Trid. p. 217. Chemnitius c In 4. praec p. 766. Zanch. with more whom I could mention 2. The Apostles do not say v. 2. to leave the word of God decide differences but serve Tables which they saw hindered them and one they saw they must neglect or perform not well as we see complaint made whence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in v. 3. must answer to that which the Apostles could not attend to in v. 2. which was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 3. As the Church-Members consist of bodies as well as souls which bodies must be provided for by others if they have not of their own to uphold them and since God hath given in charge that collections should be made for the poor Since also there are divers things which belong to the worship of God and things about the Church which must have money to buy them and to answer for them hence it stands with right reason that an Officer be chosen and authorized to be the Church-Treasurer to take in these collections and moneys and by these to serve the poors Table the Lord's Table I conceive they had their Love-feasts at that time also and why they should not attend upon the Minister at the Administration of the Lord's Supper I know not In N. England the Deacons also bring in to the Elders Table they are not troubled as we are here to send to every bodies house in particular for our due 4. It is clear by 1 Tim. 3. and Phil. 1.1 there was such an Officer as a Deacon and that distinct from the Bishop I wonder what was the work of this Deacon being an Officer not the Bishops I am sure then he should not have been distinguish'd from the Bishop neither are the same qualifications in every point required of him that are of the Bishop When or where had this Officer his original I think in this

Chapter we may be satisfied but no where else that I know of These things satisfie me with the judgement of the Church which constantly hath maintained that here were Officers ordained I know much dispute there hath been and is whether this Deacon might not preach and baptize but that is none of my question if here were the ordination of an Officer it serves my turn When I had done casting my eye accidentally upon Bucanus P. 494. Loc. Com. I found him speaking my thoughts and something more who gave me much content in opening the Deacons Office Thus then Deacons come into their office Thus Timothy also came into his office 1 Tim. 4.14 so it is generally understood Out of his Epistles I shall gather more in the next argument Whether Paul and Barnabas were ordained in Acts 13.2 3. is a great question some deny it many affirm it if they were it puts much honour upon that Ordinance and shews more the necessity of this ordinance in men coming to the Ministry Let us see first who they are that own this to be ordination some I have met with and others may know more of this judgement I finde Chrysostome 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 observe the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. with whom agree others of the Greek Fathers Thus Calvin Inst l. 4. c. 3. s 14. Chemnitius Zanchy Polanus Gualter Officio divinitus simul ab ecclesiâ commislo saith he upon the Text Aretius who infists upon it largely Gerhard Maccovius Malcolmus Waltherus who reconciles this with Gal. 1.1 Ravanel Diodati Our English Annotations Ainsworth upon Numb 8.10 The Synod of N. England who quote this Text to prove Ministers ought to be ordained and that with Imposition of hands Of the Popish party I could name more but I spare them These men are so worthy that their judgement is not easily to be slighted But we have harder work in writing in our days then others had heretofore when the quotation of men was proof sufficient but this will not now serve the turn Thus then Positâ definitione ponitur Definitum But here Ponitur Definitio Ordinationis Ergo. The Papists who make Ordination a Sacrament properly so called contend about the matter for the form they are all agreed that the form Consistit in verbis quibus sufficienter significatur traditio potestatis saith Valen. To the same purpose speaks Bellarm. Convenit inter omnes materiam esse aliquod signum sensibile formam autem esse verba quae dicuntur dum illud signum exhibetur But whether the calix patina cum pane vino be the matter and those words then spoken Accipe potestatem offerendi sacrificium c. be the form as Valen. and his party or whether the Imposition of hands with these words Accipe potestatem remittendi peccata do compleat the Act so as a man is not ordained till this be done as Bellarm and his party here they are divided Bellarm. will have Imposition of hands to be essential to the Sacrament because else saith he we cannot convince the Hereticks that Ordination is a Sacrament properly so called because we cannot demonstrate in the Scripture any other external symbole of this Sacrament As for the word Sacrament in their sense their cup platter c. we lay them by so for their words which they make the form we lay them by yet I perceive our Brethren do contend for some words which should be used at the laying on the hands of the Eldership For my part I am loth to engage further then I have clear Scripture to back me or necessary consequence from it If we take Ordination at large as this Scripture holds it out and other agree with it it may be thus described Ordination is the separation of a person called to the work of the Ministry by persons in office with fasting prayer and Imposition of hands Thus far this Text will warrant us and it is the fullest that any one Text will afford us Let us see how this sutes with other Scriptures Rom. 1.1 Paul tells the Romans he was called to be an Apostle separated unto the Gospel of God Here is my Authority I do not run before I was sent But when was this done and how this done look to my Text and I doubt not but these Texts answer each to other Separate me Paul and Barnabas for the worke whereunto I have called them v. 2. I have called do you then separate both the words we find here It seems they were not to seek what it was to separate how to go about it they had been acquainted with that work before This phrase separate is the old phrase the Lord used before in his ordaining of old Officers Numb 8.14 Thus shalt thou separate the Levites c. thus how among other things The children of Israel shall put their hands upon the Levites It was so here with Paul So Deut. 10.8 At that time the Lord separated the Tribe of Levi. So Numb 16.9 a full place The Lord separated Israel from other Nations this was a high favour but in Israel the Lord made another separation and this was higher honour still Seemeth it but a small thing unto you that the God of Israel hath separated you c. Thus we see the Lord keeps the old phrase A person called Paul and Barnabas were so by God immediately and these persons commanded from God immediately to separate to ordain them whence well might Paul say Gal. 1.1 was no Apostle by man For all is here by immediate command from God whatever was done about them was by immediate revelation Whence he saith v. 4. So they being sent forth by the Holy Ghost yet they prayed fasted and imposed hands Waltherus Harmo p. 490. speaks more to the clearing of this doubt As Paul then and Barnabas were called immediately so in constituted Churches Ministers are elected By Persons in Office Not every office no mention made ●here of Ruling Elders or Deacons but Teachers at the lowest If the people should claim this power as some do for the people in Numb 8. did impose hands on the Levites I have answered to this Sepa Exam. p. 70 71. I add but this The Apostles did translate Imposition of hands from the old Testament to the New in the Ordination of Ministers but for the peoples imposition of hands we find no such thing With prayer fasting imposition c. Here a question may be moved Whether fasting and prayer did properly belong to the essence of Ordination or whether as in other Ordinances we pray before the Administration of the Ordinance so here was praying for the Lord's grace and blessing upon the person to be ordained but ordination for the essence a distinct thing Some I suppose make it the whole essence their Acts declare it they do nothing else unless preach and others look on imposition of hands but as a common thing among the Jews when they would wish one