Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
judgement_n	bishop_n	church_n	presbyter_n	1,645	5	10.1981	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A76157	Confirmation and restauration the necessary means of reformation, and reconciliation; for the healing of the corruptions and divisions of the churches: submissively, but earnestly tendered to the consideration of the soveraigne powers, magistrates, ministers, and people, that they may awake, and be up and doing in the execution of so much, as appeareth to be necessary as they are true to Christ, his Church and Gospel, and to their own and others souls, and to the peace and wellfare of the nations; and as they will answer the neglect to Christ, at their peril. / By Richard Baxter, an unworthy minister of Christ, that longeth to see the healing of the churches.	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.	1658 (1658)	Wing B1232; Thomason E2111_1; ESTC R209487	172,368	411

honour it is to Christ and the Church to have the number made up by such as we would disallow I have shewed you before and also what a mischief that is to themselves which some would give them as a benefit 3. If Magistrates and Ministers do their duty yea or but Ministers alone they will better be kept from Heathenism or other evils in the state of Expectants and Catechumens then in the state of Church-members where Discipline will make them mad Object 14. But at least your designe lookes as if you would keep the Children of all such unchristened and what work would that make Answ I medle not with that Question but leave every man to his own Judgment And if I did my self keep off such children I think it would prove but very few For 1. I would refuse none of the Parents that had aliquid Christi that made but a Credible Profession of Christianity 2. I am perswaded that this Practise would bring almost all the people to a tollerable Profession when they know it is expected and what lieth on it 3. Upon experience now I find that both the Parents are seldom so bad as to be uncapable of offering their child to God in the Judgment of the Church Nay commonly here the more one of the persons is in scandalous sinne the more the other hates it And they are seldom both grosly ignorant And those that were delayed on these terms would receive no wrong by it Gods way is the best The Children of unbelievers must not be inchurched in waies of our devising nor respected before the honour of Christ and the common good of the Church of God But of this I say againe I interpose not my Judgment but leave each man to his own Object 15. But though Confirmation be a duty yet none but Bishops have power to do it and therefore it is not a lawfull thing for Presbyters to attempt it Answ 1. What mean you by Bishops It is a word that hath by mens application got so many significations that we may well expect that you give us the Definition of a Bishop before you make him the matter of your Dispute And yet I have read so many Bookes that Dispute for Episcopy and so few that tels us what they mean by it that I must needs say that most of them lose their labour with such as I. If by a Bishop you mean such as our English Bishops were or any fixed Pastour of many particular Churches I deny that such were ever Instituted by Christ much less have they the sole Power of such administrations 2. Do you meane that it is by Gods Law or the Laws of men that Diocesan Bishops only may Confirm If by Gods Laws prove it and we shall quickly yield But that it 's very unlikely you should do If you say that only the Apostles had this Power I Answer 1. That then fixed Diocesan Bishops had none of it For the Apostles were none such 2. Then Timothy Titus ●paphroditus c. when they pretend to have been Bishops had it not 3. Ananias was no Apostle that laid hands on Paul that he might receive the Holy Ghost of this more anon But if you say that this Power is given to the Bishops meerly by the Laws of men then either by the Laws of Magistrates or of Bishops For the former we know of none in force with us to that purpose and if they were it is a work without their line which Christ hath done before them and not left to them to describe the Offices of his Church And for Bishops Canons we know no Power that any Bishops ever had to make standing Laws for the Universal Church nor of any such Laws that are obligatory to us And the Opponents themselves do violate the Canons of General Councils without scruple as the 20th of 1. Con. Nic. and abundance more and how can they oblige us more then them 3. Presbyters have the Keys of the Kingdom Therefore they may takein and Confirm thereby 4. Presbyters may by Baptism take in members into the Vniversal Church and judge of their fitness in order thereto therefore much more may they Confirm them and judge of their fitness in order thereto 5. It s granted that Presbyters may Absolve which was ordinarily by Imposition of hands yea saith Bishop Vsher the Deacons were sometime allowed it therefore Presbyters may Confirm Or if you yielded but Absolution you would yield much of what we contend for seeing so many violate their Baptismal Covenant that Absolution for Restoring of them will be as necessary as Confirmation 6. Hierome that makes Presbyters and Bishops by Gods Law to be the same doth yet according to the custom of the Church say that What doth the Bishop except Ordination which the Presbyter doth not therefore he supposed that Presbyters might Confirm 7. The same Hierome expresly saith that Imposition of hands was reserved to the Bishop for the honour of Priesthood rather then by Divine Ordinatlon Therefore it is but a humane institution 8. The Episcopal Divines and other Writers of their side do commonly maintaine the validity of Presbyters Ordination viz. that in case of Necessity it is lawfull and where there is no flat Necessity it is not a nullity where it is irregular I cited Christian Concord pag. 53 54 c. many Bishops and their defenders that thus justifie the Protestant Churches that have no Bishops as Dr. Field Bishop D●wname Bishop Jewel Saravia Bishop Alley Bishop Pilkington Bishop Bridges Bishop Bilson Grotius Lord Digby Mr. Chisenhal Bishop Davenant Bishop Prideaux Nowel Bishop Andrews Mr. Chillingworth to whom I adde to make up twenty 17. Bishop Bramhal of Schism 18. And Dr. Steward in his Answer to Fountaines Letter 19. Dr. Ferne 20. And Bishop Vsher in his Judgment lately published Abundance more might easily be added but Mr. Mason's Book in vindicacation of the Ordination of the forraigne Reformed Churches may serve instead of more 9 We have no Bishop to do it and therefore it must be done by Presbyters Or we have none that we know of and non esse non apparere are to us all one 10. Presbyters may Impose hands in Ordination and ever did here in England Therefore much more in Absolution and Confirmation 11. King Charles by the advice of his Doctours in the Isle of Wight reserved only Ordination and not Confirmation and Absolution to the Bishops 12. Presbyters are Governours of the Churches which are their Pastoral charge and are called Rectors see Bishop Vshers Reduction of Episcopacy c. proving it Therefore they may do this which is an act of Government or Guidance of the particular Church 13. Presbyters must teach and oversee the people as their charge and deliver them the Sacrament Therefore they must judge to whom they must do it 14. A Diocesane Bishop is uncapable of doing it faithfully Could one man Try Approve and Confirm faithfully all

the Souls in 200 or 300 Churches It 's known that here they did not and it 's plain they cannot If they lay hands on them without Tryal upon the Presbyters word then 1. This yieldeth all save the Ceremony which we require 2. And it is a venturing their practises on the judgment and fidelity of other men who may send them Infidels to be Confirmed for ought they know But if they Try themselves they are never able to do for so many in season some will be old men before the Bishop will have leisure to Confirm them and many a hundred die without it Nor do they know the people as their Pastours do 15. The Doctrine and Practise of the Church of England under the Bishops is for the Power of Presbyters herein as far as we desire For 1. The Presbyters of Curates had by the Rubrick the Tryal and Approbation of those that were sent to the Bishop for Confirmation 2. The Bishops accordingly tooke them on their words with a Certificate and used not to try them themselves but only to Impose hands with Prayer and blessing 3. And this by the Canon their suffragane also might do which yieldeth that a Presbyter may do it 16. The Pope himself doth yield that Presbyters may do it And Gregories Epist to that end is put into their Canon Law Dist 95. 1 part Baptizatos etiam Chrismate eos tangere conceditur and Gregories Epist to Januar. Calaritan is annexed By which it appeareth that they took his former prohibition so ill that he was faine to reverse it And though c. 11. he be forbidden Infantes signare in the presence of the Bishop without his command yet so he was forbidden also to administer the Eucharist yea and the Rural Presbyters might not give the cup or bread in presence of the City Presbyters c. 12. ex Concil Neocaesar 1. c. 13. But certainly this proveth neither the one nor the other out of their Power 17. The Papists commonly confess that Presbyters may ex dispensatione Confirm by Imposition of hands so Bellarmine himself And the Shool-men ordinarily make it an act of the Presbyters Power 18. If it be proper to Bishops then either because of their Order or Jurisdiction Not of Order For they are of the same Order with Presbyters as is frequently confessed by Bishops and Papists themselves and differ but in degree Not of Jurisdiction for it is no more an act of Jurisdiction to Confirm then to Baptize or give the Eucharist 19 Protestant Divines are commonly agreed that Confirmation is not proper to Bishops but may be used by Presbyters For 1. France Belgia Helvetia Denmarke Saxonie Sweden the Palatinate the Countries of the Duke of Brandenburge of the Duke of Brunswike the Land-grave of Hassia with the rest of the Protestant Princes of Germany and also Hungarie Transilvania the Protestants in Poland c. besides Scotland and so many in England are all without Bishops having put them down And though three or foure of these countries have superintendents yet they make not Confirmation proper to them 2. The English Bishops ordinarily maintaine against the Papists that Presbyters may Confirm and therefore we have their concurrance as in Dr. Field Bishop Downam Mason and many others is apparent 20. If all this will not satisfie you for Peace sake we will forbeare Imposition of hands which you suppose to be the Bishops proragative and we will be content to do no more then Presbyters alwaies did in Baptizing the Adult even to judge and Approve of the Capacity of those whom they Baptized and so will we only judge of the Profession and Capacity of those that we take charge of and own as Adult-Christians and must administer the Lords Supper to And this common reason cannot deny us Object 16. But if Presbyters may do it yet so cannot you For you are no Presbyters as wanting Episcopal Ordination or else schismatical as having cast them off to whom you were sworn Answ 1. In my second sheet for the Ministry and my Christian Concord I have answered already And for fuller answer I referre you to the London Ministers Vindication to Mr. Mason's Vindication of the Ordination of the Protestant Churches c. If Bishop Bancroft himself as Dr. Bernard mentions in Bishop Vsher's Judgment and the rest of the Prelates were against the reordaining the Scots Ministers me thinks few should be so much more intemperate then that intemperate Prelate as to judge their Ordination Null And if the Papists in the Canon Law do judge that in some cases an excommunicate mans Ordination is valid me thinks Protestants should not be worse to the Church then they Especially those that are for the Necessity of an uninterrupted succession of justly ordained Pastours who must I dare boldly say derive their succession from unmeeter and more uncapable hands then English Pastours 2. No more is necessary to the Authority and just ordination of a Pastour but that he enter according to the Laws of God which Laws require us to submit to the tryal of our Rulers and Brethren Magistrates in some cases and Pastours and to come in according to the best means for Election and Approbation that are then to be had and used but they bind us not to come in by waies Impossible nor to see that our Antecessours through all generations have been lawfully ordained 3. I have shewed already and God willing shall more fully do it in a Disputation on that subject that our English Episcopcay was not that which God established but intollerably inconsident with it And therefore neither are men the less Ministers for being without their Ordinations nor are they Schismaticks for consenting to their deposition 4 As for breaking Oathes of Canonical Obedience to them I think but few among us did take any such oath and therefore broke none 5. Many among us were Ordained by Bishops and some that were Ordained took not that oath and others that did yet obeyed them while they stood and what could they do more 6 The younger sort of Ministers had no hand in taking down the Bishops and therefore are not scismatical thereby And that their Ordination is no Nullity Bshiop Vsher and other twenty Prelatical witnesses forecited will testifie Object 17. But on the contrary side it will be said that you would set up the Popish Sacrament of Confirmation againe Answ The Papists have made another thing of it They use it to Infants and so will not we They make a proper Sacrament of it They make the visible signes to be Anointing and Crossing in the name of the Father Sonne and Holy Ghost and they make Imposition of hands no part of it but cast it off though in words they own it They adjoyn a boxe of the eare to signifie the opposition that Christs Souldiers must expect They make it to imprint I know not what indelible Caracter and to give grace ex opere operato They make it to be an entering