Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
judgement_n	bishop_n	church_n	presbyter_n	1,645	5	10.1981	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A47873	Interest mistaken, or, the Holy cheat proving from the undeniable practises and positions of the Presbyterians, that the design of that party is to enslave both king and people under the masque of religion : by way of observation upon a treatise, intitutled, The interest of England in the matter of religion, &c. / by Roger L'Estrange.	L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704.	1661 (1661)	Wing L1262; ESTC R41427	86,066	191

the Scale of Order as a more regular Subordination of Duties and Relations Nature and Providence do not move by Leaps but by Insensible and Soft Degrees which give Stability and Beauty to the Universe Is not the World compos'd of Disagreements Hot and Cold Heavy and Light And yet we see those Oppositions are by the means of middle and Conciliating mixtures wrought into a Compliance 'T is the same case in Subject and Superior Higher and Lower betwixt Top and Bottom are but as several Links of one providential Chain where every Individual by vertue of this mutual Dependency Contributes to the Peace and Benefit of the Whole Some are below me and This sweetens the Thought that I am below Others By which Libration are prevented those Distempers which arise either from the Affectation of more Power or the Shame of having none at all As these Degrees of Mean and Noble are beyond doubt of Absolute Necessity to Political Concord so possibly the Closer the Remove the better yet as to the point of Social expedience provided that the Distances be such as to avoid Confusion and preserve Distinct Offices and Powers from enterfering Nor is this Gradual method onely suited to Humane Interest as being most accommodate to publick Quiet and to defend the Sacredness of Majesty from popular Distempers But 't is the very Rule which God himself Imposes upon the whole Creation Making of the same Lump one Vessel to Honor and another to Dishonor Subjecting by the Law of his own Will This to That That to what 's next above it Both to a Further Power all to Himself And here we rest as at the Fountain of Authority From God Kings Reign They appoint their Substitutes and so on to inferior Delegations All Powers derive from a Divine Original This Orderly Gradation which we find in Prelacy must needs beget a Reverence to Authority the Hierarchy it self depending upon a Principle of Obedience whereas our Utopian Presbytery advances it self upon a Level of Confusion It is a kind of Negative Faction united to dissolve a laudable and setled frame of Government that they may afterward set up they know not what We may have learn'd thus much from late and sad experience Let him that would know more of it read the Survey of pretended Holy Discipline I think it would be hard to shew one eminent Presbyterian that stickles not for an Aristocracy in the State as well as in the Church and he that said No Bishop No King gave a shrewd judgment not as implying a Princes absolute dependance upon Bishops but in effect the King's Authority is wounded through the Church the Reformation of what is amiss belonging to the Ruler not to the People I do not yet condemn all Presbyters nor justifie all Prelates We are told That in antient times and for a series of many Ages the Kings of England have had tedious conflicts with Prelates in their Dominions 'T is Right and the same cause is now espoused by our more than ordinary Papal Presbyterians to wit Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction over the Civil Power But we are further Question'd If Presbytery and Rebellion be connatural how comes it to pass that those States or Kingdoms where it hath been established or tollerated have for any time been free from broils and commotions Observation It is as true that those places have been quietest where Presbytery hath gain'd footing as 't is that Presbyterians have never disclaimed or abandoned their lawful Prince that they have never ceased to solicite and supplicate his Regards and Favours even when their power hath been at the highest and his sunk lowest This is something which in good manners wants a name How far the Presbyterians have Abandon'd their Prince I shall not press but rather refer the Reader to examine how far and in what manner they have Solicited him Cujus contrarium His late Majesty after forty messages for Peace and a Personal Treaty finding himself most barbarously laid aside in a Declaration from Carisbrook Castle Dated Janu. 18. 1647. Expostulates the matter in these Termes Now would I know what it is that is desired Is it Peace I have shewed the way being both willing and desirous to perform my part in it which is a just Compliance with all chief Interests Is it Plenty and Happiness They are the inseparable effects of Peace Is it Security I who wish that all men would forgive and forget like Me have offered the Militia for My time Is it Liberty of Conscience He who wants it is most ready to give it Is it the right Administration of Justice Officers of trust are committed to the Choice of My two Houses of Parliament Is it frequent Parliaments I have legally fully concurr'd therewith Is it the Arriers of the Army Upon settlement they will certainly be paid with much ease but before there will be found much difficulty if not impossibility in it Thus all the world cannot but see My real and unwearied endeavours for Peace the which by the grace of God I shall neither repent me of nor ever be slackned in Notwithstanding My past present or future sufferings But If I may not be heard let every one judge who it is that obstructs the Good I would do or might do Where the right lies a Presbyterian may better Determine than a Royallist Question Magno se judice quisque tuetur Here 's the Testimony of a Pedant in Ballance against the Authority of a Prince He tells us by and by that Prophaneness Intemperance Revellings Out-rages and filthy lewdness were not at any time in the memory of the present age held under more Restraint than in the late distracted times by means of a Practical Ministery Observation These Generals spell nothing and to name Particulars were not so candid I could else make up Scot and Peters at least a score even out of the select Tribe of the Reformers and these I think are not as yet Canoniz'd for Saints 'T is no prophaneness is it to play the Hocus Pocus in a Pulpit with Rings and Bodkins to talk Treason by Inspiration and entitle the holy Ghost to Murther and Rebellion To appoint Mock-Fasts and thank God for Victories he never gave them To swear for and against the King in the same breath To convert Churches into Stables and for fear of Superstition to commit Sacrilege Nor is it Out-rage sure or Intemperance to seize the Patrimony of the Church the King's Revenues pillage and kill their fellow-Subjects To set up Ordinances against setled Laws and subject the Ten Commandements to the superior Vote of a Committee To justifie Tumults against Authority and suffer the most damnable Heresies to scape without reproof But what if there were Disorders by whom were they caused It is most unreasonable to object that the late wild postures extravagancies and incongruities in Government were the works of Presbytery or Presbyterians The Nation had never proof of

would over-throw the Law and set up themselves above it and These Contrivers put the People upon Cavilling for Ceremonies They innocently under a mistake of Conscience advance an Interest of Usurpation taking that to be onely a Dispute about the Lawfulness of the Practise which rationally pinches upon the validity of the Power It ends in this Grant once that a Popular Vote may over-rule a Stated Law though but to the value of a Hair the vertue of that reason extends to our Freedoms Lives and Fortunes which by the same Rule they may take away as well as Ceremonies And as the case stands Kings as well as Bishops But seeing this great Revolution hath not happened by the prevailing force of one Party but by the unstrained motion of all England what reason is there that one Party should thrust the other out of its due place of rest upon the common Foundation No reason in the world The Law is our common resting place the main Foundation upon which we are all to Bottom The Law is an impartial Judge let That determine which place belongs to Bishops which to Presbyters what Ceremonies are Lawful and which not This is a short and a sure way worth forty of his Coalition Having pressed union hitherto he proceeds now to remove certain impediments One whereof is an erroneous judgment touching the times foregoing the late Wars Observation In truth 't is pity the people are no better Instructed Then let them know from me those very principles these folks contend for were brought by Knox about 1558. from Geneva into Scotland from thence they were transmitted into England since which time the Abettors of them in both Nations have never ceased by Leagues Tumults Rebellions and Vsurpations to embroile the publick Peace and affront the Supreme Authority They have formally proceeded to the Deposing of Princes the exercise of an absolute Authority over the Subject the abrogation of Laws the Imposition of Taxes and in fine to all extremities of Rigour as well in matters of Civil Liberty as of Conscience He that desires a Presbytery let him but read Presbyter for King in the first Book of Samuel and the eighth Chapter and he shall there find what he is reasonably to expect These were the pranks foregoing the late Wars and such as these will be again if people be not the wiser But our Camerade will be none of the Party sure For I abhor says he to take upon me the defence of our late distracted times the distempers thereof I would not in any wise palliate Is the wind in that dore Now do I feel by his Pulse that Crofton's laid by the heels He hath forgot that the War was between the King and both Houses of Parliament And that the Presbyterian Party in England never engaged under a less Authority than that of both Houses of Parliament And that Presbyterians have never disclaimed or abandon'd their lawful Prince It may be he means that he will not justifie the Distempers of the other side But why do we contest since he tells us that It is the part of weak and selfish minds to contract Religion to certain modes and forms which stand not by divine Right but by the wills of men and which are of little efficacy and very disputable and if supposed lawful ought to be governed by the Rule of Charity Observation I would fain know which is more tolerable for the Church to impose upon the People or the People upon the Church For the People on the one side to exempt all or for the Church on the other side to bind all Order it self is of Divine appointment but the manner of Ordering save where God himself hath preimposed is left to Humane liking and Discretion To think says he that none is a good Christian a sound Protestant a fit Minister that cannot subscribe to such Modes and Forms proceeds from a narrow and ignoble judgment He may be a fit Teacher for Geneva that cannot subscribe to the Form of England and a fit Minister for England that cannot conform to the practise of Geneva they may be both good Christians too and sound Protestants yet neither of them fit in transposition 'T is one thing to be qualifi'd for the Ministerial Function and another thing to be fit for such or such a Constitution 'T is true he Officiates as a Minister but thus or so as a Subject and that 's the real ground of their exception They do not willingly admit the King's Authority in matters of the Church and that which effectually is but their own Ambition they obtrude upon the world as a high point of Tenderness to the people There are beyond all doubt weak Consciences fit objects for indulgence but the less pardonable are their Mis-leaders whose business 't is for their own ends to engage the simple multitude in painful and inextricable scruples Let them Preach down-right Treason stir up the Rabble to Tumult and Sedition if they chance to be caught and question'd for it see with what softness they treat their Fellows and with what supercilious gravity their Superiors When some degree of forwardness breaks forth it is encountred with that severity which hazards the undoing of the weak part that should and might be healed And again to the same effect concerning Crofton's Commitment I imagine But suppose that some of this way were guilty of some provoking forwardness should grave Patriots and wise Counsellors thereupon destroy the weak part or rather heal it A prudent Father is not so provoked by the stubbornness of a Child as to cast him out and make him desperate while there is yet hope concerning him It is meet indeed for Princes to express their just indignation when Subjects presuming on their Clemency do not contain themselves within their duty and the seasonable expression of such disdain wisely managed is of great force in Government nevertheless if it get the mastery it is exceeding perilous It was the Counsel of Indignation that proceeded from Rehoboam 's young Counsellors What this Language deserves both from the King and his Counsel let those that have authority to punish Judge When Governors resent the non-compliances of a Party their best remedy is to remove the occasions when it may be done without crossing the Interests of State or Maxims of Government Observation That is if the People will not yield to the Prince the Prince should do well to yield to the People A most excellent way for a King that hath to do with Presbyterians where he shall be sure never to want subject for his Humility nor ever to get thanks for his Labour Where there are many sufferers upon a Religious account whether in truth or pretence there will be a kind of glory in suffering and sooner or later it may turn to the Rulers detriment Observation There will not be many Sufferers where there are not many Offenders and

there will not be many Offenders where an early severity is used But however if any hazzard be he that prints it dictates encourages and promotes it and deserves to suffer with the foremost But the Gentleman begins now to talk like a Christian. I detest says he and abhor the Tumults and Insurrections of the People and the resisting of the Soveraign Power Observation This is honestly said yet But hold a little What is that Soveraign Power which he abhorrs should be resisted by the Tumults of the People Even the Two Houses in co-ordination with the King A little further I am perswaded says he that the Generality of the Presbyterian denomination would endure extremities before they would revenge or defend themselves by unlawful means as rebelling against their Lawful Soveraign Observation This we shall understand too by confronting it and find it onely the old Fallacy a little better colour'd This part says he of the Supreme Power meaning the two Houses is indeed capable of doing wrong yet how it might be guilty of Rebellion is more difficult to conceive Now if the Two Houses cannot Rebel as being part of the Supreme Power by his Argument neither can the Presbyterians in compliance with that Party So that by this mis-placing of the Supreme Authority whatever hath been acted by vertue of any Commission from the Two Houses may be done over again and no Rebellion By this device he onely disavows Rebellion so far as This or That is not Rebellion according to his Proposition although the Law determine otherwise This is no more then what was ever maintained even by those that stood themselves upon the highest terms of Disobedience Did ever any man say This is Rebellion and I 'll justifie it Nay I should be glad to hear any of them say This was Rebellion and I 'm sorry for it But it is evident that the Presbyterians love the King and Kingly Government and account themselves happy in his Majesty's Clemency allowing them a just and inoffensive Liberty in certain matters of Conscience Observation The Presbyterians may find many things to thank his Majesty for but I would they could hit upon a handsomer manner of doing it and not perpetually to be craving more when they should be doing him service for what they have receiv'd already They love the King they say but then their Love is Conditional they must have something for it Would they expose themselves for twenty years together to Gaols and Gibbets all sorts of Hazzards and Misfortunes for their Prince and at the last sit down and sterve contentedly out of a sense of honorable Loyalty That Subject is not right who hath not brought his mind up to this Frame however unhappy he may think himself in such encounters as put him to the Trial of his utmost Virtue Wise men inform us that a Prince by adhereing to one Faction may in time lift it up above his own Imperial Interest which will be forced to give way to it as the lesser to the greater And the prime Leaders of the potent Faction will sway more than the Prince himself They will become arrogant unthankful and boundless in their ambitious designs This is a good Rule but ill apply'd unless return'd upon himself I hope he will not call That Party a Faction which submits all its Actions to the clear Letter of the Law and he will hardly prove That to be none which crosses This. If so let Common Reason judge betwixt us There is a saying which by many hath been taken up for a Proverb No Bishop no King I do not well understand the rise of this saying and therefore dare not speak in derogation of their Judgements who were the Authors of it But upon the matter it self I crave to make this modest Animadversion And first it is some degrading to the transcendent Interest of Soveraignty to affix unto it a necessity of any one partial interest for its support for Independency and Self-subsistence without leaning upon any Party is a Prince his strength and glory Also it makes that Party over-confident and its opposite too despondent Such sayings as import a Princes necessary dependence on any particular Party may in the mouthes of Subjects be too presumptuous and in the mouth of a Prince too unwary If we are not yet instructed in the Weight and Reason of that saying NO BISHOP NO KING sure we are past Learning any thing We found the sad truth of this Judgment in the event of the late War but that 's no Rule By No Bishop no King is not intended that Bishops are the props of Royalty nor do the Episcopalians understand it so but that both one and the other are Objects of the same Fury onely the Church goes First so that without presumption a Subject may affirm it and without loss of Honor a Prince may grant it I might draw Arguments from the Agreement of their Original the likeness of their Constitution the Principles by which they are supported and that they lye exposed to the same Enemies and the same method of Destruction But this would seem to imply a more Inseverable Interest then I aim at and raise the Clergy above the proper State and Orb of Subjects My meaning is more clear and open All Popular Factions take the Church in their way to the State and I am to seek where ever any Prince quitted Episcopacy and saved Himself That is his Royal Dignity for the empty name of King is but the Carkass of Majesty It is with the unruly Populacy as it is with raging Tides they press where the Bank is weakest and in an instant over-run all If they had either Modesty or Conscience they would not force so far if they have neither will they stop There what did the late King Grant or rather what Deny till by their mean Abuse of his unlimited Concessions he lost his Crown and Life Yet what assurance Words could give him he wanted not Words wrapt up in the most tender and Religious Forms imaginable But what are Words where a Crown lyes at stake In fine Treason 's a Canker and where it seizes that Prince must early cut off the Infected part if he would save the Sound The true Church lies in the middle between two extremes Formalists and Fanaticks They are of circumspect and regular walking no way forward in attempting or desiring alterations in a Civil State A Prince doth hold them in obedience under a double bond For they know they must needs be subject not only for wrath but for Conscience sake Indeed we will not conceal that in lawfull wayes they assert that Liberty which is setled by the known Laws and Fundamental Constitutions the maintaining whereof is the Prince's as much as the Peoples safety If to be no way Forward in promoting Changes in the Civil State be a marque of the Church The Presbyterians are out of the Pale It 's truth