do it from all And for your resistance whether it be such as you speak of or not we leave to the Lord who knoweth the hearts and wayes of all men It sufficeth vs as it did the Apostles and must do the servants of God in all ages that the Reasons of separation include and belong vnto you all even all your Churches Ministers and people in that estate As I haue declared before throughout this Treatise Towching the conclusion Therefore vntill you prove the contrarie which will never be mark what I say the Paradox still remaineth vpon you and your Church Towching the reformed Churches some of * your selves men of far better iudgement and learning then Mr Iacob have confessed and published In the first Admonition to the Parl. that you have all the best reformed Churches throughout Christendome against you And further that you have an Antichristian Hierarchy and Popish ordering of Ministers straunge from the word of God and the vse of all well reformed Churches in the world Yet you like blind Bayard sticke not boldlie to say to the contrarie that all men know they hold communion with you as Churches of God First then reconcile your self Mr Iacob with your fellow Reformists at home And then your Churches Hierarchy and constitution with the Ministerie and constitution of the reformed Churches abroad And remember here that the Ministery of those Churches is not esteemed sufficient by yours As the Priesthood of Rome is The proof of both which you may see in the answer to Mr A.H. Pag. 96. With whether of these then I pray you do you hold communion Or do you not in deed halt as newters between both Mynd further that Mr Beza whose iudgement you know is worthilie reverenced and approved in all the reformed Churches speaking but of fower or five of your corruptions affirmeth that in the Antichristian Church there is nothing more intolerable Bez. Epist. 8. yea that your case being so it is not a corrupcion of Christianitie but in deed a manifest defection from Christ His owne words I noted before Pag. 73. Now when themselves do thus witnes and write of your estate how should anie think that they hold communion with you as the Churches of God vnles you could prove they do also hold it the Church of God which standeth in manifest defection from Christ I know in deed that you have long deceived them by the Apology which you published for your selves against the Papists In which you concealed from them all your corruptions and abominations By meanes whereof not hauing knowledge of the truth of your estate they have therevpon for a tyme thought much better of it then it doth deserve or will beare As even some among them alreadie vpon better information synce have acknowledged But of this matter and of your dealing therein Reason 6 I have written alreadie †in the answer to Mr T. C. And therefore for these things I do still refer you as I did The Answer to Mr Hild. such as it is now is published And so may the answer to Mr Cartw. be in tyme speciallie seing you do thus provoke therevnto In the meane tyme divers copies thereof are abroad in mens hands In which as also in the ‡ other Treatise A â—revisâ—o â—f the Minist of Engl. Pag 67. 68. 69. I have noted in sundrie particulars the testimonie of the reformed Churches against your present estate You Mr Iacob may account of these or anie other our writings as you please Your toungue is no sclaunder Yet till we be answered and that soundlie from the word of God all men of conscience will see and mynd how you bring nothing at all in defence of your Churches and Ministerie but frivolous and wandring words Next followeth our owne acknowledgement to be discussed For towching that bloody mind and speach of yours when you say if we be troubled for witnessing against your Church estate none can pitty our imprisonnement banishement c. I leave you and it vnto God a See the like before Pag. 112. who seeth and will iudge Onelie let the Reader note here “ againe that not the Prelates alone but you also the forward preachers and professors have wittinglie and willinglie your hand in our blood Mr Barrow is the first you name Whom together with Mr Greenwood you †At Tyâ—um by London in the yeare 1593. Apr. 6. killed in time of Parliament that the ages present and to come may know it was done with knowledge of the whole Land In all his speach there is not one word that the members of your Church are true Christians in that estate He testifyed vnto death and sealed with his blood that you do all stand in Antichristian estate I think your self will not be so shameles as to deny it Now in his speach here alledged by your self marke fower things which all do shew it is against you 1. That speaking of the Martyrs false offices and corruptions he deemeth them saved notwithstanding through the mercy of God which superabounded above their sinnes c. By which is evident that he thought them vnder the wrath of God in respect of their false offices corruptions had not the mercy of God superabounded above those their sinnes For mercy you know presupposeth misery and superaboundance thereof a great measure of sinne 2. He intimateth as if he thought that these their sinnes were vnseen of them as doubtles they were of manie of them yea and of all of them as towching that measure of knowledge which God hath synce by his word revealed therein 3. He declareth that he was far from cutting of all among you as Mr Gifford suggested from Gods election or from Christ Where marke that he speaketh of Gods election vnder which we also trust that manie of you are not of your present outward estate In his Disco of the false Church Ref. of Mr Giff. Conferen c In respect whereof here he saith the servants of Christ may iustlie deny you in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church A case very wofull and miserable Yet adde herevnto that which ‡ els where often he testifyed that your Ministery worship estate are Antichristian c. For which cause he could not ioine with you in such estate but separated from you and witnessed this against you vnto death himself so signifying at the very tyme and place of his execution So far was he from iudging you to be in that estate true Christians To make the case yet more plaine know that we dare not condeÌ„ne them of the Church of Rome with any such peremptorie sentence as Mr Giffard accuseth vs to cutt them all from Gods election or from Christ Doth it therefore follow that in the constitution of there Church we iudge them true Christians Nothing lesse Yet thus you shame not to reason 4. He asketh what now should let that we should not have the same hope as of the Martyrs
3.12.15 amōgst many other which plainly proveth Ansvver that many errors so they be not of obstinacy may be built by a Christian vpon the fundation Christ Iesus yet be a true Christian still For which see further Maister Iacobs answer in pag. 192. Againe there are errors simply fundamētall which of their owne nature cleane abolish frō Christ such are the errors of the Arians concerning the Deitie of Christ of the Anabaptists concerning his humanitie of the Papists cōcerning Iustification by workes praying to trusting in Saincts and such like which directly raze the very foundation But that any one or all of the errors in the churches of Englād are of this force as you would seem to hold by all your 9. Reasons is most impious and vngodly to affirme And as Maister Iacob very well noteth in his answer to every one of them You therby overthrow the Martyrs in Queene Maries dayes from being christians who held the very same corruptions in their ministery worship c. which is now held in England But say you the Martyrs saw ne further Then you confesse against your selves that our errors doe not simply abolish from Christ as you every where affirme most vngodly especially in defence of your 7. Reason But that if men in these things see no further they are in the same estate with the Martyrs Now if you would have your Reasons hold you must prove the churches of England all conuicted in conscience which I hope you will not go about to doe Thus much concerning the nature of our errors whether they be of obstinacie or against the fundation directly which is the Second note I desier to be observed The Aunswer This second note of his is as foolish as frivolous as contumelions as the former See it here in his chaunging of the question between vs in his lessening of theyr corruptions in his mismatching of things vnequall in his abusing our difference of judgement and reviling off vs in his perverting the Scriptures and example of the Martyrs c. The Question between vs is not as he pretendeth but thus First concerning them VVhether the good doctrines of the Church of England being joyned together vvith theyr Antichristian errors and corruptions do make theyr Assemblyes and people in that estate to be true Churches and Christians Then concerning vs VVhether notvvithstanding the good doctrines professed in theyr Church vve may and ought to separate from theyr Antichristian Ministery vvorship confusion c. That thus the question standeth between vs themselves cannot deny though they seek to alter and turne from it here and every where Therefore do we also desier thee good Reader to mynd it well and not to be carryed away with the view of theyr good doctrines alone from the question and matter in hand but alway to have an especiall regard therevnto Notwithstanding if the question were as here he pretendeth perthen both his owne and all Mr Iacobs defence of the Church of England is even thus also quite ouerthrowen For now it appeareth that both of them do vnderstand theyr Argument following as if it were thus propounded Whatsoever is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of salvation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church Mr Iacobs Argument as it is novv vnderstood by themselves notwithstanding the multitude of errors and corruptions retayned among them But the whole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of salvation viz. such a one as in simplicity of heart beleveth and embraceth it And the publik Assemblyes of England are in theyr estate companyes so gathered together that is they do in simplicity of heart so beleev and embrace Therefore it is sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches notwithstanding the multitude of theyr errors and corruptions The Argument then being thus propounded as by this note of his it must needs be marke I pray you what followeth herevpon 1. That as it hath ben propounded hitherto it concludeth not the Question but is lame both in the Proposition and Assumption as I have noted more particularly hereafter Pag. 4. 10. 12. 13. 93. 97. 99. 106. 2. That in theyr estate we must mynd not theyr good doctrines alone but theyr errors and corruptions withall Of which there is never a word in all theyr Argument See it Pag. 3 4. 63. 171. 172. 3. That the falsehood both of the Proposition and Assumption is now so manifest as the very propounding of them thus is sufficient to refute them But for this also see further Pag. 5. 11. 12. 13. Now to speak here but of the latter braunch of the Assumption onely let them tell vs iff themselues think theyr Assemblyes and members thereof do in simplicity of heart beleev and practise the good doctrines of theyr Church Nay will they say that the Prelates the chief officers and pillars of theyr Church do so embrace them Not to speak of the many thousands of theyr Church who do not so much as know the doctrines of truth retayned and 〈◊〉 them So far are they from professing and practising them in syncerity And yet are they aswell as the best members of theyr Church partakers of theyr Sacraments Ministers Governours copartners of theyr Worship Assemblyes procedings c. 4. Finally mynd that the Argument and Replyes following speak of the profession and practise of all theyr Assemblyes and members thereof as they stand according to Law Pag. 3.6 But here he speaketh onely of such among them as do in simplicity of heart beleev and embrace theyr good doctrines and therefore neyther of all theyr Assemblyes nor of all the members of them See then here how insufficiently they have reasoned and how deceitfully they have dealt all this while Besides the question being of a visible Church he speaketh onely of such as may belong to the invisible Which is not to the poynt in controversy For the profession and practise according to Law spoken of in the Argument may be knowen and discerned of men the simplicity of the heart here spoken of God onely kooweth Thus with wynding in and out they have lost both the question and themselves too I feare if they returne not in tyme and with simplicity of heart vnto the Lord. The nature and force of theyr corruptions derived from Antichrist the deadly enemy of Iesus Christ is purposely handled in the discourse following in the 1. 2. 3. 6. 7. and 9. Reasons The Apostle saith that even * 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 the forbidding of Meats and Mariage is a departing from the faith Mr Beza speaking particularly of the Church of England and but of fower or five off theyr corruptions viz plurality of benefices licences of Non-residency licences to marry and to eat flesh saith that ‡ Bez. Epist 8 the Antichristian Church hath not
any thing more intolerable yea that the retayning of these is not a corruption of Christianity but a manifest defection from Christ Now if fower or five of theyr corruptions yea if two of them be a manifest departing from the faith of Christ what may we think of theyr whole Hierarchy and multitude of Antichristian abominations retayned among them besides Yet this mans conscience is so feared as he feareth not to say though they were thrice as many as they are yet they are not to the purpose for which they are vrged that is to convince the Antichristian constitution of theyr Church and to warrant separation therefrom Which is as much as if he should say more plainely Let the Apostels say of it what they will and let Christ himself commaund vs never so straitly to separate from such and to towch no vncleane thing at all 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 18.4 2 Cor. 6.17 Yet it is to no purpose if D. B. and Mr Iacob with theyr consorts agree otherwise The Anabaptisticall perfection then whereof he dreameth he may well apply to himself and his fellowes who will be perfit and holy in theyr way if theyr owne faucyes perswade them so albeit they stand in never so many knowen errors and those also of Antichrist yea and peremptorily condemne all such as partake not in theyr sinnes but separate from theyr Antichristian worship and Ministery as Christ hath commaunded The way aÌ„d coÌ„stitutioÌ„ of our Church is according to the TestameÌ„t of Christ Weakly in deed aÌ„d with much imperfectioÌ„ do we walk therein by reasoÌ„ of sinne that doth so compasse aÌ„d cleave fast vnto vs. Neyther was there ever in the world any Churches or Christians whose case was not such Nor can we ever look for other vpon the earth Even the Prophets and Apostles have thus acknowledged of themselves Esa 64.6 9. Psal 19.12.13 and 103.10 Iob. 9.30.31 Hab. 3.1 Rom. 7.14 c. 1 Cor. 13.9.12 Heb. 12 1. Iam. 3.2 1 Pet. 4.17.18 1 Ioh. 1.8.9.10 and 2.1.2 But should we therefore be perswaded to abide in knowen errors or to iustify such Churches as stand in the way and constitution of Antichrist Common sence might teach to reason otherwise and to discerne between things that differ so much as these doe one from another For our difference of judgement in some things if it were as he saith yet it would nothing availe them The * Act. 11. 15. and 21. Chap. Rom. 14. ch 1 Cor. 8. and 10. chap. Phil. 3.15.16 Christians in the Primitive Churches differed in iudgement amoÌ„g themselves in divers waighty things some concerning Iudaisme some concerning Paganisme c. And synce that tyme “ See the Acts and Mounuents c. the Martyrs in Queen Maryes dayes and former ages did in sundry things and those of great moment and concerning Antichrists religion differ in judgement one from another Should these therefore have approved and taken part with the Iewish Heathnish or Popish Churches in theyr other errors wherein they did joyntly see and witnesse the truth against them Or will he say there was therefore no equity in theyr dealing because they did it not Or that they were so vvholy given and bent theyr vvits and mynds so much to look into the estate of other men and other Churches and to apply the Scriptures to them as they seldome or never lookt into theyr ovvne estate or applyed the Scriptures to themselues Yet thus absurdly and vnconscionably doth this man reason against vs. Off which more hereafter Now for the particulars here mentioned the first which is of swearing by a book is an impudent vntruth so far as ever I knew or heard of any among vs. Not onely some but all of vs hold it simply vnlawfull to sweare by a book It is * Deut. 6.13 the Name of the Lord onely by which all men ought to sweare Thus we do all professe and practise In deed about the ceremony of laying the hand vpon the book thereby to signify that we do take the oath there hath ben question some thinking that it might be so done as †Gen. 24.2.3.9 Abrahams servant when he took an oath put his hand vnder his Maisters thigh and persware vnto him onely by the Lord God of heaven and earth or as Abraham did himself lift vp his hand to the Lord when he sware or vowed vnto him as we read Gen. 14.22 Others thinking that because it hath ben superstitiously abused and still may nourish in the ignorant the error of swearing by the book that therefore it should not be done 1. Thes 5.22 And notwithstanding this difference yet all of vs for the reasons last alleadged think it better to be left then retayned still and some other ceremony free from such pollution and daunger as the lifting vp of the hand to heaven or such like to be vsed instead thereof For probates of vvils taking of administration suing c. some it may be think that the things themselves being in theyr nature meerly Civill and the ordering of them being put over to the Doctors and Professors of the Civill Law they might thus far be admitted And this so much the rather because if all the Popish Hierarchy and Canons were quite abolished out of the Land as they ought to be Yet an order for these things notwithstanding were still to be had and such as are skilfull in the Civill Law might be employed thereyn aswell as any other of the Common wealth being by the Prince and Magistraeâ—s appoynted therevnto Others thinking that inasmuch as these causes Courts aÌ„d Officers are now in theyr estate committed to the Prelates whose functions are meerly Antichristian that therefore they should not be admitted at all Yet here agayne all of vs agree in this that the whole Hierarchy with whatsoever belongeth thereto is wholy to be abandoned and refused and no spirituall communion to be had therewith at all For shutting vp of shops on Holy dayes and Festivall dayes c. as he doth Popishly terme them What if some think that our bodyes goods and lands being subiect in the Lord as they ought to the Magistrates that therefore they may at theyr appointment then shift by theyr shops as they do on the Queens day or such like solemnityes And others think that forasmuch as theyr Holydayes both are popish dayes and popishly vsed for theyr divine worship that therefore they should not shut vp theyr shops on these dayes more then any other Yet all agree in this that these dayes though the Prince commaund it never so straily are no more to be set apart or vsed for publik worship then any other of the sir week-dayes Also that they need not leave theyr work any more on those dayes then any other whatsoever These are the particulars he nameth If he could have mentioned any other of greater moment you may be sure they should not have ben omitted Let him know then that we â—o and ought
to account it among the mercyes of God towards vs that our difference in judgement is but such specially considering that there is so great a mostery of iniquity in the religion of Antichrist throughout al the parts thereof as iff it were possible the very elect should be deceived that we are as it were but newly and as per weakly come out of that spirituall Babylon that the particulars here obiected were never publikly debated and disenssed among vs that as the Primitive Churches so ours have ben exercised not onely with many other questions and controversyes but with sundry perverse hypocriticall contentious and fantasticall spirits which have much troubled vs and caused the truth to be evill spoken of they creeâ—ing in at first vnder a show of Holones and so for a tyme continewing vntill God by one meanes or other discovered them and in his tyme cast them out from among vs finally that than the best on earth know here but in part 1 Cor. 13.9.12 and therefore no marvell if discerning but according to the measure we have receyved and this measure bring divers in every one our judgements many tymes and in sundry things differ vntill God reveale more and further Besides that even by this meanes we might learne to beare one with another and if any will yet be contentious that they might know we have no such custome nor the Churches of God The vse then that we are to make of such difference of judgement is not that we should therefore abide in knowen errors our selves or approve knowen evill in others or joyne with any false worship and Ministery in the service of God or refuse any truth revealed vnto vs wherein we do all agree in one but that being delivered out of the power of darknes which is in the Kingdome of Sathan and Antichrist we should walk together as children of the light holding forth the truth wherevnto we are come joyntly and faithfully agaynst all adversaryes thereof and wayting with pacyence till God reveale further for the more vniting of our mynds wherein any shall yet differ one from another And this doth the Scripture teach aÌ„d warrant vnto vs Phil. 3.15.16 Rom. 14.5.6 But now if any erring in theyr judgement do not so rest in peace but will needs proceed further to spread theyr difference among the brethren to vrge and pursue the practise thereoff to disquyet the rest that are contrary mynded to refuse communion with the Church vnles they would ioyne or consent vnto them therein then are such being first convinced and remayning obstinate to be further proceded withall by the Church as the case and theyr cariage shall requier And that so as if any be found but to be contentious they are euen therefore to be reproved and if they cease not to be cast out and removed from the Church For which see 1 Cor. 11.16 Gal. 5.12 Math. 18.17 Rom. 2.8 Iam. 3 13-18 Thus we are perswaded and thus we walk and practise Now let the Reader iudge how frivolous this his obiection is seing there may be sundry things wherein the brethren of the same Church may differ in iudgement among themselves and yet notwithstanding walk togeather in the same faith testimony and fellowship wherein God hath vnited theyr mynds none of them being contentious to disquyet the Church or the members thereof and all being ready to receyve the truth which God by his word shall further make knowen whatsoever it be And this I dare boldly say that whosoever shall not thus hold and walk they shall not onely condemne the Apostles and Primitive Churches together with the Martyrs whose examples I alledged before but shall fynd by experience that neyther any Churches neyther so much as two or three men shall ever be able to keep fellowship any while together among themselves Note also that when such please themselves most in theyr contentions and confusions thinking they do God service therein even then they do most displease him who is the God not of confusion but of peace as we see in all the Churches of the Saints 1 Cor. 14.33 This I thought needfull to write being thus occasioned concerning this poynt I could also put him in mynd of the manifold and vnreconciliable difference of iudgement which is in theyr Church and the members thereof between the Prelates Reformists Newters and Ambo-dexters with the like But I will not stand vpon it Mynd but here what Mr Iacob professeth openly in the Treatise following Pag. 69. viz. that the things vvhich the State of theyr Church holdeth to be Christs ovvne he holdeth to be Antichrists Then which what can be more contrary Will they now therefore affoard that favour to the Papists Anabaptists and other Antichristians which they would should be affoarded to themselves namely That as they would be accounted true Christians through theyr faith in Christ notwithstanding theyr errours which they must acknowledge are infinite many euen in theyr Church-constitution so they should account of the aforesaid Antichrists and others in the like case Or will he now say that euen common sence and humanity vvould requier them to graunt this When he is at leysure to write such an other Preface in defence of Mr Iacob and himself as he hath done this in defence of theyr Churches then it will be tyme ynough to impresse this thing a litle better in theyr mynds In the meane tyme this may suffice to shew how senceles and vnreasonable theyr reasoning and dealing is By the marks of the Beast spoken of Reu. 14. we vnderstand the defection and constitutions of the man of sinne spoken of 2 Thes 2 3-12 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 And that for these causes 1. Because these Scriptures speak of one and the same estate aÌ„d apostasy of Antichrist 2. Because the Beasts marks are in “ Rev. 14.9.12 this place of the Revelation directly opposed to the commaundements of God and faith of Iesus So that as Gods commaundements for his people so the ordinances of Antichrist also for his are as signes and marks by which such as receyve or refuse them may we ll be discerned and knowen Exod. 13.7.9.10.12.16 and Deut. 11.18 vvith Rev. 14.9.12 3. Because the Apostle to Timothy nameth in particular the forbidding of meats and Mariage which are part of Antichrists constitutions as vndoubted marks of that departure from the faith 1. Tim. 4.1.3 4. Because the many particulars concerning the apostasy of the Man of sinne mentioned in the Epistle to the Thessalonians are such as are both opposed to the ordinance of Christ and evident marks of the defection and body of Antichrist 2. Thes 2 3-12 Towching which and other Scriptures viz. 1. Ioh. 4.1.3 and 2 Ioh. ver 7.9.10 Dan. 7.8.25 Rev. 13.11 describing also the marks of the Beast Antichrist I have written in * A treatise of the Min. of the Char. of Engl. Pag. 7. 12. 26. c. another Treatise more purposely which may there be seen Here I will onely
their plagues Rev. 18.4 And if it be well mynded Mr Iacob himself howsoever he pretend otherwise yet in deed yeeldeth thus much when he is driven to confesse that theyr constitution is such * Pag. 37. 61 69. 70. 84. 154. as they stand in error and that of Antichrist against the Second commaundement in vayne vvorship departing from and denying the faith in their Ministery c. But for these and all the rest thou mayest see and I pray thee good Reader well to mynd the Arguments Replyes and Aunswers following From the reading whereof I will not not now any longer hold thee The God of peace tread Sathan vnder thy feet and by his word and Spirit lead thee into the way of truth to the conservation of thy soule vnto life eternall And if thou reapest any fruit of my labours give prayse vnto God and pray for me the weakest of his servants and vnworthyest of the witnesses of Iesus The grace of our Lord Iesus Christ be with thy spirit Amen Thyne in Christ Fran Iohnson AN AVNSWER TO M. H. IACOBS ARGVMENTS AND REPLIES concerning the Churches and Ministery of ENGLAND Chap. 1. Of the Title of Maister Iacobs Book which is thus A DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministerie of ENGLAND FRAN. IOHNSON his Aunsvver THe defence of the Churches and Ministery of England were an enterprise worth the taking in hand if Maister Iacob effected in deed what the Title of his Book pretendeth in show But he that readeth his book and mindeth it well shall find him promise mountaines and performe molehils Let the sequell shew it Now I would that Maister Iacob should speak himself without stammering what Churches and what Ministerie of ENGLAND he defendeth All or some only It is a poynt needfull to be knowen and mentioned All may see it would giue great light for deciding the controuersy betwen vs. And who would not think he should readily declaer it Yet he flies from it every where Therefore that he may not alway so doe but may be drawen to answer directly vnto it as also for the Readers better help and more clearing of the truth I wil particulerly and as plainely as I can describe how the Churches and Ministerie of England are to be considered And thē expect his aunswer If I be mistaken or if maister Iacob and such as liue in that Church who therefore haue better occasion to know it can do it more fully and plainely I shal willingly heare it In the meane time this is my iudgment First for the Churches to consider them as followeth 1 In respect of the Conuocation-house which consisteth of the Prelates and some other of the Priests assembled togeather with them And so they haue but one Church in the Land And that when there is a Parliament or like occasion I take it also that out of this Church the Prince the Nobles and people are excluded Saue that when they haue determined their matters they haue for some of them the consent of the Parliament 2 According to the number of their Archbishops and so they haue two Metropolitan Churches vnder which all the rest are subiect and cōprised 3 According to the number of their Arch and Lord Bishops and so there are about 26. Churches comprehending all within their seuerall Diocesses Hither also I referre the Cathedrall Churches 4 According to the ecclesiastical Courts of the Archbs. Lordbs Chancelors Archdeacons Commissaries and Officials vnder which all the other Ministers and people stand subiect and so according to the number of those Courts there may be some 200. Churches or thereabout 5 According to the number of the Parish assemblies of which all stand mēbers and so ther are many thousād Churches in the Land Hitherto of the Churches The Ministery may be considered two wayes Eyther more generally as they are all Priests or Deacons or more particularly as they are superiour or inferiour Superiour as Archbishops Lordbishops Suffraganes Deanes Archdeacons and the rest of that sort Inferiour as Parsons Vicars Curates Stipendary Preachers Houshold Chapleynes and the like Then in al these consider fower things 1. their office 2. their entrāce 3. their Administration 4. their maintenance This for the Ministerie Now let M. Iacob tell vs in his next 1. whether he defend all these Churches and Ministerie of England or but some of them 2. If not all but some only which then they are that he defendeth and which he leaveth as vtterly vnlawfull without all defence 3. For those he defendeth let him show in what place and pages of his book we may find the defence of them For whether it be that I perceyue it not or that he doth it not of this I am sure for my self that I cannot find in al his book so much as any one of them defended As others find let thē speak And to put al out of doubt let M. Iacob shew it Lastly if he will be intreated let him tell the cause why his book being entituled A defence of the Churches Ministerie of England came not out Cum priuilegio Yea why it was printed beyond sea and not in England It is a shrewd token cōsidering the title that his Defence euen at home amōg his neighbours is accoūted very weak and simple For the name Brownists by which we are reproched in the forefrōt of his book note these things 1. That in like manner long since by the Priests and Pharisees were the Apostles and Primitiue Churches termed * Act. 24.5 a sect of Nazarites and at this day by the Papists are the Professors of the Gospel called Calvinists Zuinglians Huguenotes and the like 2. M. Browne from whose name this byword was first taken vp is a member and Minister of M. Iacobs Church not of ours yet holding as we heare in his iudgment the truth we professe but for his practise stāding in the apostasy and false worship wherein they are So then not we but M. Iacob and such like may fitly be called Brownists inasmuch as in their iudgment they hold the things we stand for to be good yet in their practise like Browne are other men walking with the Church of England in her euill way 3. For our selues we acknowledg with the disciples in the Primitiue Churches and the faithful in al ages since that we are ‡ Act. 11.26 Christians striuing now for our time and estate against the remainder of the abominations of Antichrist to keep the commaundements of God and faith of Iesus Therefore doth it not trouble vs that by M. Iacob or any other we are thus reuiled for the name of Christ It is inough for vs that the †1 Pet. 4.14 spirit and truth of God which on their part is euil spoken of is on our part glorified But yet let him and all such take heed vnto it in time Now I proceed to his maine and maimed Argument Which is as followeth Chap. 2. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it is novv propounded and printed by vvhich
in him some goodnes towards the Lord God of Israell he may be counted a true Israelite finding mercy at the Lords hands 1 King 14.1.5.13 By this you may see what my mind in this first point is and alway hath ben And if you doe marke wheresoeuer I speak of the members of your Church to be vnder wrath in Antichristian estate no true Christians or iointly together no true Churches or the like I speake it still with this caution in respect of such estate or constitution as they stand in vnder Antichrist To which end you may euerie where in my aunswers minde these and the like clauses In that estate In that constitution In respect of the Ministerie and constitution of the Church Being subiect to Antichrist Being so considered Being Antichristian and other of like sorte For the second your words are That all the Christians and Churches in King Edvvards tyme and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley M. Hooper M. Latimer M. Philpot M. Saunders M. Rogers M. Tailor c. vvere all lims of Antichrist and no true Christians Now as touching this matter although you may easily see what my minde is by that I haue said concerning the other going before yet for this in particular know also that I am thus minded viz. That al the christians and churches in King Edwards time and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley c. stood as touching the outward constitution of that church in Antichristian estate Yet considering the mercie of God vnto thē and their faithfulnes in those things which in that time of ignorance were reuealed inasmuch as afterward they loued not their liues vnto death but in many waightie pointes resisted vnto blood striuing against Antichrist I hold them in this respect true Christians and now to be at rest with the Lord. And tell me your self M. Iacob whether you iudge not thus of Arnoldus de villa noua Iohannes de rupe scissa Iohn Wicleff Iohn Hus Ierome of Prage Sauanarola Dominicus Siluester Thorpe Swinderby Bilney c. the faithfull witnesses of Christ in their seuerall ages and therefore in this respect true Christians whereas yet notwithstanding as touching their ministerie and Church-constitution wherein they were they stood in Antichristian estate some of them being Friers some popish Priests some saying Masse some communicating in it c. vntill the day they were martyred and put to death For the third your wordes are That euerie soule in England is conuicted in consciēce that the Prelacie is vnlawfull vntolerable Touching this likewise I neuer did nor can affirme as you haue set downe Only this I know and affirme for the generall state of the Land that a greater light is risen vnto them in these daies but they loue darknes more then light Also that many times and sundry waies hath ben shewed and convinced vnto them that the Prelacie Priesthood Leiturgy c. are Antichristian and therefore vnlawful and vntolerable Finally that the * VVitnesse their Acts in Parlament against vs. Their presēt estate practise c. vniuersal face of the Realme hath refused the truth by vs professed and retaineth still the Antichristian abhominations aforesaid For which I feare their iudgment will be the heauier Ioh. 3.19 and 15.22 Act. 13.45.46 This is that which I haue bin and am perswaded touching these particulars The latter branch of the first of these is our maine question and the ground of all our reasoning which I haue proued by many arguments both from the word of God and your owne mens writings Vnto which M. Iacob you haue not giuen one word of sound aunswer in all your booke but continually fly from the point in question as knowing I feare in your self that there can be no iust defence of your Churches estate in this behalf And touching all three your self could not but know that my iudgment therein was as I haue declared you and I haue so oftē had speach together thereabout Yet behold to make the truth of God and my defence thereof more odious to the world and so to preiudice your Readers iudgment you haue here at first vniustly and falsly fathered vpon me these three assertions being not able to shew them in my words or writings any where Remember you not how the enemies of Gods grace delt of old with the Apostles Rom. 3.8 blaming them vniustly as if they had taught vve should doe euil that good might come thereof Or mind you how the Papists Anabaptists and the like doe at this day charge vs though falsly that vve make God the author of sin whiles we maintaine against them the truth touching Predestination Freewill c. In like manner deale you with me See Mat. 26 60.61 vvith Ioh. 2 19.21 Act. 6.13.14 And thus at first you become a false witnes both in peruerting the sence of my words and in altering diminishing and adding vnto them Euerie of which you know is to beare false testimony not only against me but in this case euen against the truth it self That all men take notice both of these positions and of our dealing therein I also am content and desirous My aunswers I confesse are somewhat long partly because I would make the truth manifest euen to the most simple partly for that I would more fully discouer your manifold shifts and leaue you no statting hole any where In your replies which may well be pinned vp in a narrow roome seeing they haue nothing of waight in them I desire more sound and vpright dealing together with demonstration of your cause from the Scripture That I haue cause thus to desire these three points following which I wish the Reader to obserue in your Replies will testifie First that you being to proue your cause and Argument Three things to be noted by the Reader in Mr Iacobs Replyes neuer proceed though you be still called vpon to make due proof thereof but put ouer all proof vnto me and busie your selfe in aunswering after your fashion the Exceptions and Reasons I brought against your Argument Secondly that in aunswering my Reasons and Exceptions finding them all to heauy you neuer directly refute them as they were propoūded but some times leaue most waightie points in them wholy vnaunswered somtimes labour to wash your hāds of the matter and to turne ouer the plea from your selfe that haue vndertakē it to the state of your Church on whom you leaue it somtimes transforme them into other shapes framed by your self and so aunswer not me but fight with your owne shadow and thus euerie foot yeeld the cause by necessary consequence Thirdly that in steed of Gods word which is very rare with you in all this dispute you presse vs with the authoritie of Man neuer going about to approue your Church-estate by the Scriptures which onely must end this controuersie but alway leading vs to the view and errors of the Martyrs For let it be minded whether euery of your Replies haue not this for their foundation
Antichristian Hierarchy and a popish ordering of Ministers strange from the vvord of God and the vse of all vvel reformed Churches in the vvorld And further Although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preacher may vvithout daunger of the Lavves vtter all the truth comprised in the booke of God Then touching the Sacraments thus they write The Sacraments are vvickedly mangled and prophaned Also In the primitive Churches they administred the Sacrament simply as they received it from the Lord vve sinfully mixed vvith mans inventions and devises Yea they charge the Prelates that they doe superstitiously and vvickedly institute a nevv Sacrament vvhich is proper to Christ onely marking the child in the forehead vvith a Crosse in token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confesse the faith of Christ And of your book of coÌ„mon prayer according to which your Sacraments and other divine service is administred thus also they write we must needes say that this book is an vnperfit book culled and picked out of the Popish dunghill the Masse book full of all abominations To conclude withall thus they testifie concerning these things controverted betweene them and the Prelates Neyther is the controversy betvvixt them and vs as they vvould beare the vvorld in hand for a cap a tippet or a surplus but for greater matters concerning a true Ministery and Regiment of the Church according to the vvord Which things once established the other melt away of theÌ„selues Being once established say they Therefore yet they did not account they had them And whereof speak they All may see of a true Ministery and Regiment of the Church Now speak your self Mr. Iacob Do not these men testifie to your face that you have avouched a bold and impudent vntruth wilfully striving against the cleare light Yet I have cited but a few and those onely out of the Admonitions to the Parliament Out of which and the rest of their writings I might alledge a thousand mo to convince you herein But that would be too tedious And these I doubt not will cleare the point and suffice any that are indifferent and godly minded For your self I say no more but wish you had not verified the Orators saying He that once passeth the bounds of modestie becomes impudent out of measure Hitherto of the first Exception Chap. 5. The second Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforesayd Fran. Iohnson SEcondly tell vs whether you hold and professe Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his owne ordinance only and in no other And if you do then shew vs how your practise agreeth with this profession H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 2. Excep TO this second Exception That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King I aunswere The Booke of Articles our Ministers now and Congregations generally do hold and professe the same our practise being answerable likewise therevnto euen as before time Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer and such like with their Congregations did then viz. That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King and to be obeyed in his owne ordinances onely in no other This I say we generally professe and practise Hovvbeit this note vvith all vve hold Christs ordinance to be of tvvo sorts writteÌ„ or vnwritteÌ„ the first necessary the secoÌ„d arbitrary The first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the invvard opinion only such as these The doctrine of God his Nature his Persons his Properties of the Messias Christ Iesus of Iustification of Sanctification of the ResurrectioÌ„ c. Wherein standeth the †1 Cor. 3.12.13 foundation of saving faith All these must be in the vvritten vvord or els to be none of Christes The second touching outvvard orders in the Church vvhich are truely called and counted Christes ovvne also although particularly deuised and appointed by the Church vvhom Christ hath authorised therevnto euen as it shall be thought most fit and profitable for the preseÌ„t times places and persons such vve hold all outvvard gouernement and ceremonies to be because they be not simply of the foundation neither written nor certen nor perpetuall but at the arbitrarie appointment of the Church and Magistrate and yet to be Christes ovvne neuerthelesse vvho hath left this libertie for the Church to vse Thus vve hold and thus vve practise and vve are persvvaded no Scripture to be against all this but rather for it I speak novv concerning our Ministers and Congregations generally that is our publique Church state If you say but there are divers amongst vs that thinke othervvise I aunsvver But this is the generall estate both of our Ministers and Churches hovvsoever one or tvvo amongst huÌ„dreths or thousands may thinke othervvise shevv the contrary if you can And our Churches they certenly must be deemed after their generall estate and constitution not as one or tvvo men thinke If you say this generall opinion and practise is an error Therfore they obey not Christs ordinances in truth herein though they thinke they do I aunsvver let it be so it is novv “ An error though not fundamentall the error of their iudgment as it vvas in Maister Cranmer Ridley c. Not pregnaunt rebellion and disobedience to Christ not a convicted or seared conscience so that their other “ 1 Cor. 3 1â—.15 truthes of the foundation are not frustrat nor Christ made to none effect in them And this is all our question whether they remaine Christians still for all these faultes yea or no. F. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Excep IN this Exception we demaunded first if you held Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his owne ordinance only and in no other then how your practise agreeth with this profession One would have thought it had ben needfull if you could to have cleared this poinct by the Scriptures and from thence to have proved your Ministery worship Church gouernement c. which are called jn question to be no other then the Lord Iesus Christ that Prophet Priest and King of his Church hath in his Testament given and appointed therevnto But this you have not done And let the Reader note it But what then do you say First you tell vs That touching this poinct your profession and practise now is so as before time it vvas vvith M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer and their CoÌ„gregations But what of this Can the persons or age of these whom you name nay can any person or ages preiudice the truth Were not they subiect to error at all Or must their errors bind vs Did not Iohn Hus that champion of Christ and others also of the Martyrs in former times say and heare Masse even to their dying day See their historyes in the Acts and Monuments not seeing the abominations thereof And did not divers of them acknowledge some the Popes calling and Supremacy some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some
Agayne when in the first place you say thus we practise and in the latter we shevved before and both these are true of your self who could exclude you from being one of the number in both the places Further it is here to be noted how playnely you affirme these two things agayne 1. That your Church-corruptions are from Antichrist 2. That yet your Church holds them to be Christs owne A most silly absurd and godles defence of a Church as ever was seen That it is tedious vnto you to have your corruptions reckned vp it is no marvell Yet if they be so odious as it grieue you to heare them but named why doth it not more affect you to practise them to partake in and with them and so to increase your sinnes and iudgement before the Lord Heretofore when you preached against them and sued to the Parliament to haue them remoued it was a pleasure to you and all the Reformists to name them to print them to make your pulpits ring of theÌ„ and every where to cry out against them as most filthy and abominable Then if any reckned vp “ Admon to the Parl. Miles Monopodius The Râ—gisur c. above an hundred of them together one after another they were nothing tedious but very welcome Now to mention or heare but some of them is altogether yrksome A very great and strauÌ„ge alteration yet in deed not to be marveled at if it be well mynded For then you seemed to seek and stand for the truth now you resist and strive against it then you would professe Christ against the Prelates now you do hand your selues with them against him And yet behold in all these evils you blesse your selves and them toâ— For what els is this that you say these multitude of Antichristian abominations abolish vs not from Christ Is it not as if you sayd ‡ Deut 29.19 We shall have peace though we walk according to the stubbernes of our hearts Alas Mr Iacob that you should come to this height of impiety thus to blesse and please your selves in the vnrighteousnes of Antichrist that some of perdition then which what greater iudgement could haue come vpon you 2 Thes 2 12. This is not to break and teach to break one of the least commaundements but many of the greatest Mat. 5.19 Now vnlike are you and such other false Prophets of the Beast which say these are to fevv to sleight of to small moment c. How vnlike I say are you to the Prophets of God and Martyrs of Iesus who did alway cry out and witnesse against the least Idolatry they saw amoÌ„g the people They did not sow pillowes vnder their elbowes as you do but denounced the judgements of God against them and refused to partake in their iniquitie So do not you But this belike is your following of Christ this is your obedience of faith even to plead for Antichrist and to do the works of darknes and abomination and yet to say with your hypocriticall forefathers Is not the Lord among vs No evill can come vnto vs. Micah 30 11. Yet you would have vs beleâ—â— that you go not about to dazell the peoples eyes c. Yes Mr. Iacob you do it and proceed in it daily from evill to worse But flatter your selues and them towching the constitution of your Church as long as you will with your lying words of Christ of fayth Ierem. 7.4 c. like as the Iewes amidst all their impieties still vaunted of the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord c. yet this remaineth vpon your heads notwithstanding that these abominations of Antichrist retained among you do of themselues and of their owne naturâ— abolish your Assemblies from being the Churches of Christ or holding his faith in that constitution and practise This I haue proved †Pag. 3.16.60.63 c. before wherein if you rest not you may reply againe Or if you desier more evidence see these Scriptures 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 6.3.4.5 2 Thes 2-12 Col. 2.8.20.21.22.23 Psal 119.21 Ephes 5.11 1 Ioh. 4.3 and 2 Ioh. ver 9.10.11 Rev. 13.11 and 14.9.10.11 and 17 1-6 and 18. and 19. chap. and 22.18 19. And for mans record see Mr Beza who is as playne as playne may be In an epistle written in the yeare 1566. to Mr Grindall then Bishop of Lord â—â— concerning the present estate of the Church of England thus he saith If those things be true Bez. Epist. 8. vvhich I think haue not likely hood of truth viz that the Metropolitans retaine in vse those most filthy abuses then which the Church of Antichrist hath not any thing more intolerable namely pluralityes of benefices licences of non-residency licences to marry and eat flesh and other the like this vvere certainely vvhich I speak with horrour not a corruption of Christianity but a manifest defection from Christ and therefore they not to be condemned but praysed rather vvhich should oppose themselues to such endevours These are his words Where note 1. That the things are most true and rise among you which he thought were not so much as likely 2. That he speaketh but of fower or five of your corruptions and yet sayth they are a manifest apostasy and departure froÌ„ Christ yea such as he affirmeth he speaketh not without horrour How miserable then is the estate of your Church which hath not onely these fower or five but even an huge masse and endles multitude besides And how fearfull is the case of you all who will yet notwithstanding still abide in that Church and therefore cannot but partake in her sinnes Rev. 13.4 and be subject to her plagues Most of all what an heavy Wo hangeth ouer your head Mr Iacob who feare not yet so boldly to affirme that these some these 91. are to fevv and to sleight and of to small moment of themselues of their owne nature to abolish you from Christ Is not this to strengthen the hands of the wicked that he should not returne from his wicked way by promising him life Is it not to say vnto him Thou art righteous every one that doth evill is good in the sight of the Lord and he deliteth in them Yea is it not to please your selves in vnrighteousnes to condemnation Ezech. 13.22 Mal. 2.17 2 Thes 2.12 Then also why proue you not that which you say You heare beside the Scriptures before alledged that Mr Beza speaking but of fower or five of your abominations sayth they are a manifest defection from Christ Now I suppose you will not deny but manifest defection from Christ doth of it self and of it owne nature abolish from Christ Besides if it be true of fower or five of your corruptioÌ„s how much more of your 91. yea of your hundreds Specially when to the retayning of them you haue now a long tyme added persecution against the truth for the maintenance of them Or what will you aunswer to your self Mr Iacob who haue
discover error as it was at first to reveale the truth You pretend also 2 the opinion of many auncient and late learned godly Christiās and 3 their expositiō of the Scriptures so as herein they cary ambiguity in infinite Thousands iudgment To both which I answer 1. That great antiquity was alledged by the Samaritans Ezra 4.2 Ioh. 4.20 and is also by the Papists at this day for their Prelacy Priesthood worship and other their errors of Purgatory Masse Prayer for the dead mixing water and wine in the Cup Iustification by works Extreme vnction Transubstantiation c. And the Scriptures too are so expoūded as they carry no small ambiguity in these points in the judgement of infinite Thousands Pag. 44. 45. 2. I have also shewed before how even some of the Martyrs learned and godly Christians held divers of these popish errors vnto death And therefore doubtles so took and expounded the Scriptures as vpholding them 3. And be sure whensoeuer you bring the many auncient and late learned and godly Christians you speak of for your assertion that as many such if not far mo both auncient and new may he brought to the contrary And what then are you the nearer 4. But in deed I deny this which you say There is not testimony from such antiquity as you speak of for your Prelacy and the rest of your abominations before rehearsed Pag. 63. c. If you can therefore shew it in your next And mynd as for the rest so for the Prelacy in particular that you shew it to be such as yours in office entrance administration maintenance c. For although ♣ the mystery of iniquity began to work betimes yet it was both withheld a while from being revealed 2 Thes 2.3.6 7.8 with Rev. 13.11 and coming vp out of the earth it appeared and was exalted not all at once but by degrees So as it was a long season in this rising of Antichrist ere the Prelacy came to that height which now it hath with you and in Rome the mother thereof Search and see if it be not thus And in the meane tyme because I know you haue a prejudice of whatsoever I say heare a litle what Mr Cartwright one of your selves hath written of your Prelacy against D. Whitgift now Archb. of Canterbury Our Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons c. saith he besides the names have almost nothing common vvith those of elder tymes Againe If those Bishops vvere alive they vvould not knovv ech other For that they vvould think ours Princes and ours would esteeme them as hedge Priests not vvorthy of their acquaintance or fellovvship T. C. first Rep. Pag. 124. c. and his 2. Rep. Pag. 660. And in the same place comparing them togeather he sheweth vnanswerably in many particulars how farre they differ the one from the other So as your Archbishop in this poynt also hath ever since ben at a Non plus Now if you please you may take your Archbishops quarrell in hand and strive with as good successe as he for these and the rest of your Romish traditions 5. Finallie remember on the one hand how our grandmother Eue at the first entring of sinne into the world insinuated ambiguity in the word of God which yet in deed was most cleare and plaine Gen. 3.3 with Gen. 2.17 And mynd well on the other hand if at this day the Papists themselves bring not greater show of Scripture for their grossest heresies of “ Iam. 2.21.24.25 Dan. 4.24 Mat. 25 35.36 Iustification by works †Mat. 26.26 Ioh. 6.51.53 Trāsubstantiation “ Iam. 5.14 Extreem vnction * 1 Tim. 3.15 Ioh. 14.26 16.13 Impossibilitie of the Church to erre c. then you or any other either have brought or can bring for your Prelacy and other impietyes before mentioned Shall we therefore conclude as you do that they are not easily convicted though they be mistaken in these things God having so disposed in his providence to suffer this among Christians so long and so vniversally God forbid Or shall we think that Ieroboam and the Iewes of whō you speak had not their pretences and excuses aswell as you and the Papists I have shewed before that they had Besides also as Moses and the Prophets were plaine against their corruptions so are both they and the Apostles as playne against yours As for example that there should be no forbidding of meats or mariage no read or stinted prayer no mens inventions to worship God by no Priests in office of Ministery neither any Lord Bishops but Christ onely no baptizing by women no Idoll Temples no Apocrypha books or prescribed Homilyes for the worship of God no Popes Canon Lavv or Prelates decrees to rule the Church by c. Compare now with these the Calves Images Priests and places whereof you speak and see if the word of God condemne not the one aswell as the other Mind also how against these Gods voice hath sounded in your eares by the testimony of his seruants from tyme to tyme and how his hand hath fearfully smitten you with hardnes of heart and given you over to false worship and persecution of the truth besides all other impietyes raigning among you Then which what greater judgement can there be in this life Consider also the example of Corah and his companions whom the earth swallowed vp and fyer devoured from heaven Num. 16. chap. 26.9.10 Whose case although it be handled and compared with yours in the Second Exception before Pag. 33. 52. 55. 3. yet because of the childish excuses which you shame not still to plead vnder pretence of vvant of conviction darkenes of the vvord vnto you c. and because ‡ Before Pag. 37. your self also do judge their case to be most wretched and altogeather inexcusable therefore will I here againe put you in mynd to consider well with your selves and to examine by the word of God whether your sinne may not be esteemed in some respects greater then theirs 1. The Office and function which they vsurped was a true one Numb 16.10 Yours false 2. The things which they took and offred were such as God had cōmanded vers 18. Yours such as man prescribeth 3. The people to whom they would administer were a true Church vers 2.3 Yours a false 4. The reasons which they alledged divers of them were more seeming-good then any you bring vers 3.14 5. They thought they did well and as was meet vers 3.13.14.18.19 You at least manie of you know and have professed that your Ministery and worship is Antichristian and therefore evill and abominable 6. They had not the written word so as you have vers 5.7.9.10.28 c. Lev. 8. 9. chap. wiih Heb. 1.1.2 2.2.3 7. They sinned in one thing vers 10. You in an hundred 8. They were twise or thrice admonished and reproved vers 4.5.8 c. You ten tymes 9. They stood vp against Moses and Aaron vers 3 You
and therefore the Argument strong and of force Thirdlie the particulars before mentioned being found in your Church of England will testifie it also to be verified of you Lastly although many of the abominations of the “ vvhores cup of Babylon be now cast out of England for which we prayse God yet so long as you reteine the Hierarchy Leiturgie confusion of people Canons Rev. 17.1.2.3.4.5 Excommunications c. derived vnto you from that mother of vvhoredomes and abominations of the earth we must needs beleeve and alleadge against you the Scripture and common proverbe which saith As is the mother so is the daughter Ezech. 16.44 For a conclusion let it heer be observed how to defend your estate you are glad to runne into the Papists Tentes and to take vp their worne and rustie weapons which have ben of no force to defend themselves but have often and justly ben turned into their owne bowels Rhemes Annot vpon 1 Tim. 4.3 Read the †Rhemes Annotations vpon this place and see if heer you would not avoyd the evidence of this Scripture against you by the verie same shift and answer as the wretched Iesuites there would turne it from their mother of Rome that is by posting it over from themselves to Martion and Tatianus Read it and note it well H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 7. Reason TO this your defence of your Seuenth Reason I say Though euery where you are very vnreasonable yet no where you seeme more vnconscionable and wilfull then here A strange vntrueth First doe I say No to the Apostles Yea 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 That they who forbid Mariage and Meates doe fall from the faith Doe I say noe Is this your conscience Say I not expresly They doe in these points departe from the faith but not Absolutly and wholy Secondly doeth it follow by my words as you affirme That none departe from the faith but those that departe totally wholy and absolutely whereby all the vildest Heretikes should be iustified as Arrians Nestorians Anabaptists c. Doe I say so Is this also your conscience Againe doe I say The text doth not reproue all the Papists in their forbidding of Mariage and Meates but only Martion and Tatianus of old Doe I say any such thing Nay say I not expreslie the contrarie Are you then a man of conscience Doe you suffer for conscience Know therefore that this I say and my wordes before doe import so much That whosoever doe forbid mariage or meates doe depart from the faith But note some doe more some lesse There are some that doe simply and fundamentally and others in some sorte Men departe from the faith Simply and Fundamentally two wayes First they which doe erre in such maine poincts as doe vtterly abolish vs from Christ and destroy the Foūdation thus doe Arrians Manichees Seruetus Papistes c. Secondly such as holding the Foundation in doctrine sound doe desperatly professe and teach some what els against the manifest light that is in them so Martion and Tatianus doe Fundamentally and simply fall from the faith because they simply forbid those good ordinances of God Marriage and Meates euen against the light of conscience nature togeather wherewith a liuely saving faith cannot possibly stand Now the Papists in this do departe from the faith also but that is only in some sorte or in parte because they forbid these things not absolutly but vnto some sometimes They that depart thus from the faith may bee true Christians notwithstanding yea they are certenly if they be no worse in any thing els albeit you deny it here most fondly without all sence To which end you most vnlernedly and vngodly apply those scriptures A litle leauen leueneth the lump A few dead flyes make the oyntment to stinke Scriptures abused and a litle poyson bringeth death Will you haue no tainte of euil in a Christian but it quencheth the life of God in vs needes Is it not possible your selves might hold some such errors yet remayne true Christians notwithstanding Then if Papists vvere no vvorse but in those errors only they might be true Christians notwithstanding But Martion and Tatianus doe wholy departe from the faith not but that they beleued some truthes but in that they †The same did Corah Dathan and Abiram likewise See before in āswer to the 2. Exception the 2. Reply presumptuously quenched the instinct of nature conscience as I haue said Here then it appeareth how wicked a sclaunder it is that you say I runne into the Papistes tents and fight with their weapons doe iump with the Remists annotations on 1 Tim. 4.1 2 3. Iudge now by this that I haue said whether I doe or no. And note that I save that they be either Apostates or departers from the faith not onely who fall totally as you sclaunder me that I saye but also who fall fundameneally that is eyther the first way or second as I haue afore saide And so doe these grosse Heretikes whom you mention 1 Arius Servetus Papists c. 2. Martion Tatianus Iudas Corah Balaam the Apostate Israelites c. Thus then your questions and demaundes about the Papists their errors I passe by as more vaine then pertinent Onelie note vvithall if this reason of yours vvere good it maketh Mr Cranmer Ridley c. to be departers from the faith and no true Christians Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 7. Reason LEt others iudge Mr Iacob whether in your self this be not in deed found true and vndenyable which you do vainelie charge me withall Though every vvhere you are very vnreasonable yet no vvhere more vnconscionable and vvilfull then here You have contradicted the Apostle and yet have neither conscience nor will to acknowledge it no not when it is told you I proved my Assumption by the Apostles Yea 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Your denyall thereof then must needs be as much as to say No to his Yea. Neither is there anie help for it in your vaine additions of totally simply fundamentally absolutely c. They are rather so many witnesses against your self as anie men of vnderstanding may and will discerne Pag. 136. c But for this see further in my former aunswer Against which you cannot say a word but in stead of replying fall to plaine railing For the conclusions I gathered from your words about Departers from the faith the Papists and other Hereticks let the iudgement be the Readers whether they follow not necessarilie vpon your erroneous and most absurd assertions and distinctions Yea see both for them and for your contradiction of the Apostle if even here where you seek to colour and avoide them you fall not into them againe Here you would haue me know that this you say That whosoever do forbid mariage and meats do depart from the faith Well I heare you say so But a while after I heare you say this too Pag.
am I from being of your mynd who think the truth wholy destroied in all such as have served Idols or held any other fundamentall errors Consider also the Aethiopian Churches which retaine many of Moses ceremonyes and of the grosse points of Popery And the Greek Churches erring greatlie of old about Freewill and synce that tyme about the Person and proceeding of the holy Ghost besides other very great errors among them Not to speak of the Lutherans holding with other errors that of Consubstantiation which by necessarie consequence overthroweth Christs humane nature and therefore is fundamentall in your owne account Will you now say that none of these can have a lively saving faith I dare not be of your mynd I hope and am perswaded otherwise Nay even for the Papists and others of whom you speak I dare not with you say peremptorilie of them all from the first arising of their errors they are vtterly abolished from Christ My reason I shewed before out of the Papists owne doctrine To which I refer you with this note Pag. 47. that as on the one hand I acknowledge * Exo. 33.19 Rom. 9.15 God sheweth mercy to whom he will so on the other hand I am perswaded neither can I see otherwise by the word of God but whosoever liveth and dyeth a Papist and member of that Church of Antichrist in the knowledge profession and maintenance of that Religion in the parts thereof can not of vs be esteemed to live and dy in the state of salvation And this I speak as of all such generallie so speciallie of them which have lived synce the height and clearer manifestation of that apostasy 2 Thes 2 3-12 Rev. 13.8.11 17. 18. 19. chap. Such also take I to be the case of the Anabaptists Arrians and the like departing from true Churches and being once coÌ„victed Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.25.38 1 Ioh. 2.19 Iud. ver 19. This being noted I could now further alledge against your peremptory coÌ„demnation of all such as have held any fundamentall errors that even your selves yea the chiefest pillars of your Church are of a contrary judgement herein And for proof I could cite D. Whitgift now your great Archb. in his ‡ last book against Mr Cartvvright pag. 83. But because where sound judgement is needfull in question of Religion his testimony is but of small valew I will not stand vpon it but refer you rather to Mr Iewell a Prelate also yet a man otherwise worthy to be reverented both for his suffrings in Q. Maryes dayes and for his gifts and labours employed in defence of sundry points of the truth against the Papists This Mr Iewell alledging the examples of Papias Apollinarius Victorinus Tertullianus Iewels defeÌ„ce of the Apology Pag. 337. 338. Lactantius and others in former tymes confesseth that both they defended the heresy of the Chiliastae which said that Christ after the generall iudgement should dwell here a thousand yeares together vpoÌ„ the earth and yet notwithstanding were godly and worthy members of the Church of God So also he thought of Irenaeus though he held besides the former heresy this also Ibid. that Man at the beginning when he was first created was vnperfect And of Hilary who affirmed both that ‡ Ibid. pag. 353. Christ received not flesh of the blessed Virgin and that the flesh of Christ was impassible and could feel no grief Also of the Picardes concerning whom when Harding the Papist objected †Iewels Rep. to Harding Pag. 119. that sometyme they pulled out their eye and cast it froÌ„ them he aunswereth it was an error of simplicity if they did it much like the error of Origen and others who ghelded themselves for the Kindome of heaven Which two last things of the Picards and Origen it may be you include in your second sort of fundamentall errors and the other before in your first and so account them all without saving faith and vtterly abolished from Christ Yet you see the chief governors of your Church are otherwise minded Yea and your Church it self for Mr Iewels books were published with consent and speciall priuiledge thereof Note this well 2 Some againe who erre not in any fâ—ndamentall point as you distinguish yet no doubt shall perish and be condemned As for not relieving the poore and people of God for not yeelding obedience to Christ but fearing of man more then God for want of sanctification for hypocrisy contention wicked life c. Mat. 25 41-46 Ioh. 3.36 Mat. 23. chap. Rom. 2.8 1 Thes 4 3-6 Ephes 5 3-6 Gal. 5.19.20.21 Neither can you be ignorant but that “ Deut. 27.26 Rom. 6.23 Ezec. 18.10.11 Iam. 2.10 curse and death by the Law of God is threatned to all sinne even to the least Yea and that the very infants through originall sinne alone are subiect herevnto Rom. 5.14 1 Cor. 7.14 For your defence then it is not sufficient though it were graunted that you hold the Foundation and erre not in any fundamentall point Your persisting in false worship and disobeying the ordinance of Christ howsoever you consider it sufficeth to make your estate vnlawfull and subiect to condemnation God imputing it vnto you Thus at once all your building and defence of your Church falleth to the ground But yet that you deceive not your self nor your Reader in this point anie more mynd if your Church do not also hold and mainteine sundry Fundamentall errors against the true faith of Christ For example Fundamentall errors in the Churche of England 1. Your self say before * pag. 28. 35. that your Church holdeth all outward gouernement and ceremonyes to be vnwritten and vncertayne but at the arbitrary appointment of the Church and Magistrate c. That this is a fundamentall error appeareth thus 1. It doth wholie take away and annihilate the Second commaundement 2. It maketh Christ the Sonne inferior to Moses the servant 3. It vpholdeth these and the like fundamentall errors viz That it is not written nor certaine but at the Churches and Magistrates pleasure Whether the Pope be to be head of the Church or Christ onelie Whether now we may retayne the Priesthood of Levi the Passeover Circuncision c. For these concerne the outward gouernement and ceremonies of the Church 2. Your Church holdeth that Christ in his soule descended into Hell Which I haue shewed †before to be your Churches opinion Pag. 116. And who knoweth not that Whitgift P. of Canterbury Bilson P. of Winchester Chaderton P. of Lincolne with other the pillers of your Church do thus hold and mainteine And that it is Fundamentall your self I suppose will not denie See but your owne book against D. Bilson about this question Pag. 92. 127. 133. 148. 156. 162. 165. 174. 3. Your Churches Ministery worship confusion and governement are such as they profane and disanull Christs office of Mediation that is of his Prophecy Priesthood and Kingdome That this is Fundamentall against