Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
judgement_n	action_n	case_n	declaration_n	1,441	5	9.3515	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A57691	The bounds & bonds of publique obedience, or, A vindication of our lawfull submission to the present government, or to a government supposed unlawfull, but commanding lawfull things likewise how such an obedience is consistent with our Solemne League and Covenant : in all which a reply is made to the three answers of the two demurrers, and to the author of The grand case of conscience, who professe themselves impassionate Presbyterians.	Rous, Francis, 1579-1659.	1649 (1649)	Wing R2013; ESTC R15008	51,239	74

which shall be proved here more evidently towards the conclusion But because I intend truth here in the simplicity of my Heart and no way to swell this Argument either with passion in my selfe or with scandall to any man else therfore I shall sincerely unfold what hath long been a mistery to my selfe and for confirmation of what I have asserted here so positively I shall give the reader the expresse word of our great English Covenant-champion and of Master Hinderson especially the Scotch Champion betwixt whose fingers the Covenant it selfe was moulded O●●t ●●ind cafe of Oonscience p. 14 saith But they who are now for the right of the Son and continuance of the Government are as much against the vices in and about him as about the Father And should he doe as his Father hath done they who are now for the performance of this Oath and Covenant would as truly joyne against him as against the Father Who can call this Regall Language which yet will be lookt on as the English Presbyterian-alarum though but by one man Hee had done well in speaking of the performance of Covenant by us all if he had offered a Catalogue of all that which would fulfill the Covenant in all its termes without any further interpretation But that which is supposed eternall for time is likewise infinite as to the matter which it may relate to by the application of humane Logick Mr. Hinderson in his Newcastle conference with the King p. 24.25 saith That the reforming power is in Kings and Princes Quibus deficientibus it comes to the inferiour Magistrates Quibus deficientibus it descends to the gr●sse of the people but yet supposing still as he saith that they be all of them rightly inform'd For which reason though he conceal'd it from the King yet he meant that the reformation of any of those three powers according to the Covenant must be judged reformed afterwards by some other body of men here not named For I conceive that he who is ultimatly to judge of the Reformation and of its publique obligation judgeth likewise of the reformers themselves though never so high or never so low and to this strange opinion he would faine intitle two English Episcopall Champions Bilson and Iewell Here I must confesse I was at a stand concerning the nature and interest of the Covenant and was sorry to see that I was no plainlyer told whether it would carry me laden with so great a curse nor where it would set me downe At last I found in the same Author 32.33 Speaking of the subordination of powers under which people were finally to obey That he would not willingly tell his Majesty whether the Church was subordinate to the civill power either to King or to Parliament or to both For quoth he I utterly desol●ima such a headship as the Kings of England have claimed or such a supremacy as the Houses of Parliament crave with appeales from Ecclesiastiall Iudicature to themselves No man may thinke but Mr. Henderson meant this for the jurisdiction of England as well as of Scotland for hee spake of Houses of Parliament which were plurall in England onely and though it may seeme strange at the first view to heare one say that the Scotch Nation state the supremacy of England in their Country or that they endeavour a direct change of Government here which they have indirectly attempted for a long while let every man judge not by our subtilties but by the Kirkes Declaration 27 July 1649 p. 11.12 Their words are That their King after his Oath of Coronation in Scotland shall assure them under his hand and seale to injoyne the solmne League and Covenant establish and practise the Prerbyteriall Government Directory Confession and Catechisme as they are approved by the severall Assemblies of their Kirke and Parliament in ALL HIS DOMINIONS and that he shall never endeavour any change thereof No man will say but States like judges ought to act ex bono aequo conjunctively So that though these things which here they would impose upon us perpetually were never so good yet they being unequitably deriv'd upon us from their supreame judicatory in whose possession we are not so fully now as they were last yeare in ours we ought to abominate their designe as much as they might the like obtrusion of their Presbitery from hence without power there to rectifie it ever after For these Presbiterians with us grant That good and lawfull things may not be practiz'd under a power unlawfull as they say the Scots would be here However here I at last found who was my supream right Magistrate in the Kirk● sence but then I conceiv'd I was in a great snare because I saw the jus publicum of a Kingdome totally though secretly changed I saw all things of direct religion and whatsoever related collaterally to its security lodged there and by the Kirke prejudged from the judgement of all other authorities in Scotland especially But because religion and its security draws in all humane concernments and that two supreame collaterall powers cannot stand in one and the same place in the same time for the same person but for contrary actions therefore I knew not whither of the two supreame powers the Ecclesiasticall or the Civill I should in this case throw away for they could not in this contest by the judgement of any be both obeyed together and I stood in a miserable case betwixt a Jaylour and a Devill the Kirke giving me to the Devill if I obeyed the Civill power and the Civill power giving me to the Jaylour if I obey'd the Kirke which was to speake the truth the State of the whole Kingdome of Scotland last yeare betwixt the the Kirkes excommunication and the Parliaments Order which authoriz'd Duke Hamiltons expedition in Vindication of the Covenant here In which difference we have no reason but to like the effect however we may dislike such a cause here Wherefore to answer this ●scruple I positively say That in whatsoever is of Pact betwixt man and man or of policy in the Covenant I ought solely to follow the civill Magistrate and the Church here ought to follow the Magistrate likewise as a case relating to the disquits to the warres and to the recovering the peace of earthly Kingdomes If otherwise then the civil jurisdiction ought clearely to be managed by the Ecclesiastique which is stated so no where that I know of but in Romagna and Dutchy of Ferrara and the other places belonging to the Pope This I speak not as desirous to detract any thing from the sacred function of the Ministery as it containes it selfe in its own function no man being able rationally to object any thing wherefore some might not ex Officio be deputed to excite others to vertue and sanctity of life But yet who can say they are not subject to the infirmities of ambition avarice and severe passions as well as other men or

blood The Reader may be pleased to take notice that though these replyes for the most part touch but on simple obedience to a Government supposed unlawfull but commanding lawfull things yet they virtually extend to our acting under such a Government It is to be presumed that our adversaries not contesting profestly what hath been publiquely argued in that point do conceive the difficulties of acting under involved in those of our submission to such a power The distinction of Active and Passive obedience is but a nicety and if one be not a sin the other is not They are in a manner the same thing derive from the same Principle and differ but gradually just as the morning and the noone light do which derive both from the same planet For he who takes paines to furnish in a ●axe and he who tooke paines to execute the office of a Judge or of a Justice of peace in honest things by vertue of Commissions and Orders from the same supreame but illegall Magistracy doe both of them what they doe by vertue of the same originall submission which is a passive obedience If this be otherwise then according to these authors opinion we and all our forefathers have sinned in obeying those actively or passively who by unjust usurpation have come betwixt us and them who derive from the first who were in compact unlesse the Lapse of time can justifie the viciousnesse of an action which is impossible or that we may lawfully obey those who plenarily possesse and protect us and command us lawfull things FINIS ERRATA p. 2. losse r. loose imperciptibly r. imperceptibly insinuation r. insinuations p. 2. l. 2. may be not r. may not be beholding r. beholden p. 6. heneration r. generation p. 7. but in one r in one p. 9. understand r. understood offices r. officers p. 10. a businesses r. busines p. 11. pretends r. pretend thereof r. therefore p. 13. but it is a contradiction r. is it a contradiction p. 14. for detain'd r. attain'd for dislove r. disolve p. 15. best to take heed r. best take heed p. 16. King r. Kings p. 17. purpose r. propose p. 19. found r. swound p. 22. at last r. at least p. 31. drive r. derive p. 33. ply r. comply for or r. nor p. 34. large r. subjection p. 39. person r. persons next r. rest p. 4 r. change r. chance p. 42. true to religion r. to true religion p48 dispence him of it r. dispence with him for it whence the difficulty of perswading civill truth ●irst Demur Demur p 6. case of Con. p. 3.7 ● Pag. 2. The end of Magistracy subsevient to the end of our being All justice or just things relate not essentially to the legall Magistrate Of commutative justice Vid. p. 26.35 1 Cor. 6. of distributive justice This present Parliament is effectually a Parliament Vid p. 18. Necessity above formes of Government The difference betwixt conquest victory Vid. p. 33. Object Answer The State of Kingdoms as separated and as mixt in themselves Of the Ri●ht of War betwixt Fundamentall Parties page 9. Of the House of Lords Of Secluded Members The negative when prevalent in equall partnarship Whither the transactions of the legall number of the house be invaled when any members are forct away Of the present consent of the Major part of the People Ob. Answ. Whither the present power be the suprem Whither it be a Parliament Object Ans. The case of the Kings comming to the house of Commons not parallel The case of the apprentices entring and forcing the house not parallel The Parl. votes against force still observed are the same still VVhy actions of Government must change How wrong hath been fitted for a title 〈…〉 Bac. H. 7. Ob. Object Of toleration Ob. Ans. The magistrate in a state not as a Father of a Family VVhy states cannot looke so strictly after vertue as after publique quiet O● Ob. Ans. Of the Ecclips suspention and extinction of supream powers The union of people to a GoVernment not like a marriage Obj. Ans. A King of England why not as a husband to the people of England Ob. Answ. Of taking away the Kings life Ob. Ans. Of obedience for wrath and for conscience sake Tyrants in titles from whom Of our lawfull submission to a Magistrate who rules by Gods permissive will Ob. Ans. Obedience necessary to lawfull and unlawfull powers how different How we may have a right to take what another may not have aright to give The difference betwixt privat Title and publique Of possession Object Answer Of supream powers altering themselves by joynt concurrence How seperatly Ob. Ans. Demur p. 8. Of non obedience Ob. Ans. What time makes a form'd Government Obj. Ans. Our condition different from Israels betwixt David and Absalom Obedience to false Governours in the right or wrong Government varies not the sin of obedience Wherein Caesars case the Parl. disagree Wherein Cesars case the Parl. agree as to justifie our obedience Obj. Ans. In what sen●● the present submission 〈◊〉 legall Of the 〈◊〉 evidence of 〈◊〉 ri●●ts to as to satisfie con●●●e●ce for actions of w●r u●on them Ob. Ans. Object Demn p. 5. Ans. Obedience some times asserts not a Title but power They who obey a wrong authority r●bbe not the ri●h●● Obj. Ans. Of the recovery of dubious Rights and the benefit which people get by most warres Obj. Answer The case of the Master of the Ship thrown over board Ob. Answ. Whether we be actually in the unsettlement deepes which he supposes When the whole body may be hazarded for a disperate remedy when not 1 Joh. 3.17 we are still obliged to many things of the Covenant but not qua league or Covenant Of promissory ●nd assertory Oathes VVhither a promissory Oath which alwaies involves a Tacite condition be lawfull Ob. Ans. Gen. 24.2.34 Of tacite conditions in Oathes concerning things possible The obligation of a pact or promise with an Oath or without an Oath is all one 1 K●ngs 2 20. 21.22 1 Sam. 25.22 Jo. ● 10 Gen. 24.2.3.4 Argu. The Covenant a politicall or State Oath The subordinate conditions of this Oath Ob. Ans. O● change of ●●●●●nment 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 cause or as an effect of ●●●hers for●●● breach of Covenant can ●●●her way authorize us to 〈◊〉 against this Government The Covenant obliges us not against the ●i●th Commandement Page 15. The Covena●● make 〈◊〉 eac● man a Magistrate Obj. Ans. Num 30. How a superiour may free an inferiour from ●n Oath even in that which belongs to God The difference btewixt this our league and those of Prince● for authorizing war The obligation of the Covenant how lesse then the obligation of a ●ra War how an unjust penalty for the meere breach of Covenant Object Ans. Of the obligation of such a promise as may be fulfill'd solely by the promiser Ob. Answ. Of the obligation for preserving the Kings person by covenant How the words of preservation in Covenant provided more for the Kings suffering then the words of punishment provided for Delinquents sufferings Ob. Ans. How 〈◊〉 that the excluding member ought to be brought by 〈◊〉 before the excluded Ob. Ans. The Coveant relates onely to a time of u●nion with and under the magistrate How the league of nationall union came to be ended Of bringing those who would divide us to condigne punishment The meaning of our utmost endeavours and of all the dayes of our lives in the Covenant The Covenant how more then broke by the Scots hostility Obj. Ans. whither the nationall breaking of one part of the Covenant put an end to the whole Ob. Ans. The Covenant of all oathes interprets itselfe least especially in the positive Government which it would establish and in Religion Though the Covenant were in Force yet a change of Government might be consistent with it How the Covenant necessarily points at some change of Government Scotch Presbytery fit for any Government but the kingly The judgement ●● experience of Mary Queen of Scotland Of King Iames Of King Charles Vid. Scotch Declaration 27 July 1649. p. 14. Of the Prince Vid. Decla p. 8.10 Scotch proceed at the Hague with the Prince p. 14.15 The supream power in Scotland in whom How the Scots state the supremacy of England in Scotland How the Scotch Presbyterians ours oppose one another Two supremacies in the same place how in●●●sistent Whether atrue Title doth according to Covenant authorize obedience The King of ● Scotlands present case the actual change of Government there by their interpretation of the covenant Against Kings Page 18. Page 22. The interpretation of the Kirke is not recommendatory to the State The conclusion