Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
judgement_n	according_a	lord_n	see_v	1,803	5	3.4174	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A13299	A Christian reprofe against contention Wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the Church against such slanderes and reproches which Sabine Staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes, the first being 16 questions, called a louing tender. The second is his preface and postscript befor and behind Mr. Answorths last sermon, and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token, hee breetheth out his malice against vs: and lastly her is an answer to a letter written by Mr. Robinson, and sent to vs with the consent of his Church, which now Mr. Staresmore hath published to the world. To these things an answer is giuen by A.T.	A. T., fl. 1631.; Thatcher, Anthony, attributed name.	1631 (1631)	STC 23605; ESTC S103240	40,101	48

say to the Law and to the testimonies of the Lord if they can bee brought to ouersway our reasons I trust the Lord will giue vs hearts to submit therevnto and vvhere hee vvisheth that vvee did see our weaknes and saith then would you not procede vvith that confidence in a matter and manner before ynheard of in the Churches Answer How true this is it doth appeare by the answer to Mr. S. Preface before for their I haue layd downe the matter and approued our course by the word of God and haue the examples of the Churches of God in the like causes which by the vvord of the Lord is approued and for our weaknes wee knovv it and confesse it yet ought wee not willfully to cast away our obedience from the least of Gods preceptes or commandes which hee hath giuen vs to walke in vpon Mr. Rob suttle inticements yet wee are redy to hear what any man can informe vs by the word of the Lord and therefore that sentence hee might haue spared wher hee saith As if the word of God either came from you or vnto you alone and who can not abuse Scripture phrases to effect their willes Lastly hee endeth his Letter vvith vpbrading of vs which is as I suppose a principall cause that Mr. S. hath set it out to the vvorld because it agreeth vvith his manner of reproching of vs as followeth And for the Church here vvhich is nearliest vnited vnto you vvhat other vse haue you had of vs since the death of your vvise and modest gouernors in all your differances and troubles saue to helpe to bear part of the scandall opprobry wherwith specially in the publique cariage of matters you haue layden the ordinances of God and professors of the same in the eyes of all within and vvithout but in vaine vvee speake vnto you vvhose eares prejudice hath stopped Ansvver In deed nearlist in dwelling but fardist of in affection as it may appeare not only by this bitter Letter but also to strangers as occasionally they passe by their dwellings by vvhome it cometh to our eares hovv bitterly they inuay against vs and what is the cause because wee wil not receiue their new found vvayes of declining and because wee deslike that they looke not better to the Lords vvatch in suffering their members to apostat some declining to the Church of England their liuing other going a great compase to new England to communicat with the Church of England and some of them that are in this Land professe to hear in the assemblies as they haue occasion and I make no doubte but they haue don it many times and this their negligent watch hath effected so that from a great company they are allmost come to nothing or fewer then those vvhom they despies and haue sayd concerning vs that our contentions would break vs to peeces And further I say that our troubles haue by them bin increased in vnjust taking part vvith our opposites so that the prouerbe is in them fullfilled which saith Prou. 27. 17. Yron sharpeneth yron so doth man sharpen the face of his friend for Mr. S. informeth Mr. Rob. and his people a mise and they againe sharpen his face and harden him in his euill and others that take his part and so increase our trouble and also the scandall and herin they fullfill this prouerbe Prou. 28. 4. They that forsake the law praise the vvicked and therfore lett it not bee though contention allthough wee faile in the manner of the doing of it if wee keepe and obserue the other part of the Prouerbe vvhich saith But they that keepe the lavv sett themselues against them And novv my brethren that are absent I speake to all that are faithfull if all the Churches of God Gala. 1. 7. Phili. 3. 18. 2. Peter 2. 1. or the most of them haue bin thus troubled as the Scriptur doeth plentyfully shovv vvhy should it seeme strang vnto you as if some strang thing had befallen vs or as if it vvere other vvayes vvith vs then it hath bin vvith the Churches of God euen in the dayes of the Apostells and in all ages yea and hath not the Apostells Act. 20. 30. foretold that such things must bee saying For their must bee heresies amongst you that they vvhich are approued may bee made manifest amongst you 1. Cor. 11. 19. If therfore vvee striue for the trueth and to abolish sinne vvee do herin the will of God Therefore our Lord teacheth vs to judge with consideration Iohn 7. 24. saying Iudge not according to the apparence but judge righteous judgment Neither let any stomble or bee offended at any weaknesses they see or espie in vs for wee are but vveake men compased about vvith the same infirmities euen as other yet desiring to bee helped by any let therfore such as haue a loue vnto the trueth rather sett their shoulder to the Lords vvorke and helpe to bear the burden Gala. 6. 2. which the Lord hath appointed and let all know that as it is euill to giue justly an offence for any to stomble so is it dangerous to bee offended in Christ as our Lord saith Matth. 11. 6. And blessed is hee that shall not bee offended in mee And vvher Mr. Rob. saith that our cares are stoped vvith prejudice Answer It hath bin time for him to say this if hee had conuinced vs of errour or sinne but to run on thus vpon an vnjust ground may rather bee judged prejudice in him And wheras hee saith that they will bewaile our state which is in deed to bee bevvailed to this I answer Allthough hee doth mise the right mark in this his bewayling of vs for hee bevvayleth vs because wee withstand his errour and declining yet for our selues I say vvee haue cause to bee sory or to bewayle our sinnes and vveakness●…s and also our troubles which our opposites hath made and the more sory vvee are that hee and his people hath vnjustly helped them as this Letter doeth manifest and vvhich I haue noted before yet more I say bevvayle or weepe not for vs only but for themselues in respect of those euills and declinings before showed and thus I end vvith the Letter of the Church of Leyden desiering all to consider of that vvhich is vvritten in the which their is no eloquence for I want learning and am but a bab in Christ yet I pray consider that when a child pleadeth reason it ought the more to bee regarded because it proceed from so simple an vnderstanding so looke vpon the cause to bee the more just and equale because I am but weake and haue not been hertofore so imployed And novv as Elihu saith Iobe 34. 3. The ear crieth words as the mouth casteth meats therefore try the reasons and Scriptures alledged and as Paule saith 2. Timo. 2. 7. Consider what I say and the Lord giue thee vnderstanding in all things FIN COncerning the publique passages of things in the Church which ●…re in this booke I haue been carefull to keepe to the trueth of things yet it may bee in some vvord or vvordes vvhich is not materiall to change any sence may haue escaped therefore for the more certainty of the trueth thereof I did first reuise them with diuers brethren and then I read it in the publique first because all should take knowledge of the rightstanding of the cause indifferant secondly because I would not allvvayes striue about words and things which concerneth not the things indifferant and so to fill the vvorld full of needlesse contention vvhich is neither to Gods glory nor yet to the comfort of him that doeth it Fault escaped In page 2. line 8. seeing is wanting p. 4. l. 4. read vs for his p. 4. l. 21. a mise for inse pag. 5. l. 2. read sinne for sence p. 5. l. 9. read were for was p. 5. lin 23. read appealing for appearing p. 5. l. 30. read said for sayth p. 8. l. 37. read proued for proue p. 11. l. 2. read circumcision for circoncision p. 11. l. 23. read second for two p. 12. l. 11. read the for to p. 13. l. 6. read prouoke for prouoque p. 13. l. 12. read scerching for cerching p. 15. l. 17. our is vvanting p. 25. l. 33. read try for cry R. B. D. P. S. I. E. H. A. B. * Iustification of separ●…tion * Obserue this is the 〈◊〉 which Mr St. 〈◊〉 to haue * An a●…row against the sep●…ration of the B●…un pag ●…9 line 25.

for the matter of his casting out I haue before shewed and for the manner of his casting out hovv can hee tearme it a cast out at the windowes seeing it vvas done by the free consent of the Church yea and those vvhom hee now saith witnesse for them did not only consente but some of them hastened the elder to cast them forth and then their owne alliance had not to speake for them therfore if his cause had bin good against the Church as it is not yet might hee not so to haue written for is not the going in or the casting out at the window opposit to the going in or casting out at the dor as wee may see in Iohn 10. 1. and is their any planner manner of proceding then by the free consent of the Church either to receiue in or to cast out and was not the incestious person so cast out 1. Cor. 5. 4. yea and so was Mr. S. cast out by this Church and therfore cast out at the dore and not at the window And wheras he saith that vvee haue been bold to vent our worst wee could imagine against him vpon all occasion how is this true that hee saith when a●… wee let him alone so many yeares although hee hath don vs great injury and that in printe as before I haue showed and much more I could shew if I were of his disposition But what shall a man git by such things but rather deshonner the Lord and the trueth and therfore I let many of his clamours alone vnanswered because I judge it not wisdome to contend in such vaine contention being greeued that I am occasioned to doe so much as I haue done by him further hee saith ●…nd for your presumptuous determining my Eternall estat the Lord for giue you Answer Hee vvould make the reader beleeue that wee judge him a cast away and that no repentance shall be giuen to him of God but hovv euilly doth hee deale in this thing it appeareth thus Mr. S. after hee vvas cast out yet came hee ordinarily euery Lords day a great whille and troubled vs very much with heauy contention wher vpon as I to my best remembrance hard a brother say that it was doubtfull to him whether hee did not sinne against the Holy Ghost in that his doings novv if the brother had spoken neuer so absolut yet vvas hee but one man why doth Mr. S. speake as if it were the generall but this is his manner vvill I do desir that the Lord vvill giue him grace to shovv the contrary by repentance but what an idle thing is this that hee will print such a thing as this this vvas but a speech spoken by one man and hee showing his judgment vpon Mr. S. euill cariages then present and also before what may a vvise man thinke of this man how hee straineth other things for his porpose seeing in this hee dealeth so euilly for to sett downe one mans speech in such tearmes as hee that readeth may thinke it vvas the generall and novv I haue answered his Preface wherin I haue lett alone diuers of his clamours and admonissions for these reasons follovvings first his clamours and admonissions do return vpon himselfe his grounds being taken avvay and so hee being answered in the main differances 2. I am vnvvilling to follovv a man of his disposition in such idle contention in clamours and reproches and in laying open of the infirmities of men to the vvorld for I haue learned of Dauid not to tell of such things in Gath nor to publish it in the streets of Ashekelon lest the daughters of the Philistians rejoyce I could haue rewarded him the like but I spare such things and I am greeued that by him I was prouoked to speake that little I haue done but I could not vvell auoid it let the indifferant Reader judge 3. If I should go one vvith him in such vnprofitable strife vvho vvould respect to reade it but to cry the trueth out in the maine things indifferant may bee profitable to them that haue a loue vnto the trueth and novv to ansvver to Mr. S. Postscript to the brethren absent in the vvhich hee should haue had more care to sett dovvne the trueth of things as they are seeing hee meant to send abroad his vnprofitable writings Brethren it may hapely seem strang to you that the people hear complained of should be so irregular in their proceedings and so singular as to reject the helpe of all but since they had their reasons I thought it requisite to giue them their due herein the reason why they proceded not by the rulle Matth. 18. vvas because in this cause they had nothing to doe with it but vvith Iosua 22. and 1. Thess. 5. 22. Ansvver I say contrary to him that wee refuse not the helpe of any as their is just occasion and therefore wee haue do still professe that if any Church or Christian can show vs vvherin wee sinne in any thing vvee are redy to heare them but for this poinct see the Answer to his Preface vvher hee chargeth vs for rejecting of our 3●… Article but let the Reader obserue hovv hee doeth skoffe vvith his ovvne abusing of vs first obserue that hee vvould take away strange conceites out of the mindes of the absent brethren by the giuen to vs our due in the shovving to them our reasons which reasons hee mindes to bee very vnsufficient for the bussines in hand Answer and so do I minde also as hee settes them downe therefore I vvill obserue his doings first where hee saith the reason vvhy vvee proceded not by the rull Matth. 18. vvas because in this cause they had nothing to do vvith it Answer but is this all that wee haue sayd haue wee not showed wherin wee had to do also vvith Matth. 18. in this bussines for that rull hath three degrees the first the second the third their is no sin handled in the Church which is not comprehended in this rull and this wee hold which is contrary to that that hee hath sett downe wheras hee saith but with Iosua 22. and 1. Thess. 5. 22. hear wee are greatly abused also for although Iosua 22. is effectuall for the bussines in hand as after I shall show yet that in the Thesalo is not of waighte for that hee settes it downe neither vvas it to that end brought those Scriptures was aledged to him in the publique when hee refused to debat the matter the one prouing that Christians ought to abstaine from all apparences of euill but seeing he had run into it this Scripture being compared vvith Iosua 22. they proue that Christians ought to cleare themselues in such like causes as that vvas and as their example reproueth them that vvould not follovv it so likewise is the example of the Church of Israell an example and rull for all Churches to keepe the watch of the Lord that his publique ordinances should not bee broken also Wee

driue it nay yet further I say that if the Church of Leyden vvho first receiued him and that by the vertue of that Couenant if they had come to see their errour in so doing yet vvould it not follovv that hee should bee desmembered seeing hee vvas separated but the Church ought to acknovvledge their sinne in so doing and to see that hee corrupted not other Reu. 2. 20. with his errour and that reason helpeth him not from Gen. 29. 24. where hee saith As Zilpah vvas not nor could bee rightfully Leahs handmaide except shee had bin Labanes first rightfully by whose gift shee was transmitted and conueyed vnto her Answer I grant that Laban could not rightfully giue her except shee had bin his rightfully before but if Laban had stollen her and Zilpah had run avvay and come to Leahs into the land of Cannan then Leahs might haue bought her or haue hiered her and yet Laban should haue no injury offered vnto him vnlesse his stealling her made her his rightfully vvhich ne●… man ought to say So likewise neither the Church of Leyden nor any true Church ought not to receiue any from such an vnseparated people seeing they haue but stollen the ordinances of God and haue no right vnto them And whereas hee bringeth these reasons to proue his deepe intrest in the bussines let all know that no conceited intrest vvill beare out any to maintaine an errour and therefore all his reasonings is of little weight And for that hee saith that the Couenant vvas by the Churches both here and there also in the time of those vvorthy gouernors now at rest in the Lord esteemed truely Christian I pray let vs examme the trueth of this that the Churches both here and there did so esteeme for our selues I may say that the Church neuer did receiue it and therefore not so esteeme it neither vvas the voice of the Church euer taken concerning that Couenant but vvhen they showed their minde to bee contrary vnto it and condemned it Or doth Mr. Robin thinke that because our teacher who was a mise informed did a little whille esteeme of the Couenant that therefore the Church must so esteeme also and thought that wee must doe as these which consented to this letter which followed o●… suffered him in all or the most of his declinings And for that Church which is present in the place vvhere those Couenantmaker are as wee are truely informed by themselues they did neuer receiue it How is this true then vvhich Mr. Robin sayd but if it had bin so what vveight is there in that reason to helpe the Couenant much like vnto the reason of the Pharises Iohn 7. 48. which sayd against Christ doth any of the Rulers or the Pharises beleeue in him but this people vvhich know not the law are cursed Therefore I conclud it is not the esteeme of Churches nor of gouernors which giueth authority to such things but the word of the Lord and where hee saith the party intended by you should by your grounds not haue bin cast out but left out of the Church Answer Our grounds inforce not that conclusion seeing the person vvas novv become a separated person and a member of the Church of Leyden from whence wee receiued him as before I haue showed in the next place there is a syd and a halfe of the printed letter spent to excues and to justify Mr. S. in that speech in the vvhich hee seemed to imitat Paule Actes 24. 14. but of that I haue spoken before yet still I answer that those his speechs did proue his stifnes in that his former course and therefore of reconciliation wee had no hope while hee so stod and continued and for Mr. Robinson profering to come and to justifie Mr. S. in that his former proceding to the which I answer wee know well that hee vvas redy to that bussines and that hee was one vvith him in that his errour and therefore just cause wee had not to bee redy to giue him intertainment to come as a moderator to middle the matter seeing wee find no such president in the booke of God yet this wee hold and professe that if any can show that vvee haue sinned in any thing vvee ought and are redy to heare them and this haue vvee signified vnto the Church of Leyden by letter and therefore the way vvas open for them to come in that manner In the next place hee saith And wheras the course well begone and tending to pacification was as wee vnderstand interrupted and broken of vpon a ground taken from the course of not calling againe into question ciuill judgments once passed by the judge according to right let it not bee greiuious vnto you if wee a little warne you of that dangerous foundation vpon which it seemes you to much build your manner of procedings in the Church Answer To hould that matters being ended according to right ought not at mens pleasures to bee called into question againe I see not this proued to bee dangerous by all that which Mr. Rob. haue sayd For if matters rightfully ended should at mens pleasurs bee called into question vvhen vvould their bee an end of contention either in the Church or in the common wealthes and for the distinction which hee puteth between the ending of ciuill judgments of the casting forth of the sinner by the Church namly that repentance should follow to these distinctions Wee agree and signifie withall that if wee could see that good worke in these persons in question there vvould bee quickly are conciliation but yet further I ansvver to take away occasion from such as take an occasion to cauill at things equall that wee hold it lawfull although a matter bee rightly ended yet vvee may go ouer it againe as the occasion may bee offered yea and more then once and this wee haue practised in this matter in the publique with these men diuers times but yet it vvill not follow that at mens pleasurs wee must do this and bring our liberty into bondage and so to vphold contention But wher hee saith that a larger extent of discretion this vvay fevv causes in any age can persuad to then this in hand considering both the ground and cariage of the thing and the number of the persons opposite and vvith these intrest of all other Church in the bussines Answer The comparison of any age is more fit to shovv eloquence and to set a glose vpon the thing in hand rather then to proue that for vvhich it is brought and for the ground and cariage of the thing I haue before spoken of it to the which I refere the Reader and for the number of the persons opposite I answer although I am sory they are so many yet I am glad they are so few seeing these men are such suttell opposers labour so much to corrupt the mindes of the simple and hauing with them Ioab the captaine and Abiather the Preist I meane Mr.