Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
judgement_n	according_a	judge_v	speak_v	1,408	5	4.6246	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A44504	Truth's triumph over deceit, or, A further demonstration that the people called Quakers be deceivers, and such as people ought to accompt accursed in their doctrines and principles in vindication of a former proof of that charge, made good against them, from the sorry shifts and evasions from it, and cavils of George Whitehead against it, in a pamphlet of his, called The Quakers no deceivers / written by John Horne ... as a further preservation of people from following any of their pernitious principles ...	Horn, John, 1614-1676.	1660 (1660)	Wing H2810; ESTC R41721	58,074	54

not issue out to touch and ly upon the body As Rom. 7.17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25. and 8.1 Nor is it all one to say Keep the commandments love God with all the heart for that requires no more as to Gods gracious acceptation than that as he is in the light we walk in the light and love him with all the ability of knowing and loving here given us which is not while here so perfect as to have no ignorance of God and so no sin in us however those sayings are not that To that question In what part must sin dwell c. I say sin will whither we will or no dwell in our members while they be mortal Rom. 7.17.20 with Psalm 143.2 So as no man living should God enter into judgement with him can be justified in his sight which ●he saies next● Proves not that the Prophets and Apostles had sin in them while they lived and seeing the Scripture it selfe doth not prove it he saies it 's no matter of my word who he saies perverts the Scripture therein both belying me and the Scripture for the Scripture gives this as the reason wher●o●e David would not that God should enter into judgement with him though his servant that no man living should be justified in his sight Doth not no man living include no Prophet or Apostle as men while here living Suitable to that Psal 130.3 if thou Lord mark iniquities Lord who shall stand as implying none should So that Scripture proves what I asserted unlesse the Apostles and Prophets could be proved not to have been men so long as they lived He saies That Scripture includes not the Saints as to prove them unjustified who were changed from that state wherein no man living could be justified in the sight of God and were come through the death and the many tryalls and tribulations into the life and righteousnesse of Christ See here Reader if this man hath any thing but deceit And is it a matter for his words without Scripture proofe Was not David a Saint when the servant of the Lord and desires God to answer him in his faithfulness and righteousnesse who is the accuser of the Saints here but G. W. that implies that David was not a Saint or is no man living a Saint Must they stay from being Saints till they are dead and Canonized by the Pope If the Saints while they live here be men that live then cannot they be justified if God should enter into judgement with them either then say that the Saints are not men living while here alive or that David said false or else that G. W is a deceiver and not to be listened to by us And yet we say not that the Saints be so included as to be unjustified while here but that is not because they could be justified should God enter into judgement with them though he may judge them through him he deals not with them immediately as or according to what they are in themselves or according to their sins Psal 103.10 11. But in and according to his good will in Christ what he speaks of a state in which they are come through the death c. What be they but his additions to the Scriptures of which Davids saying gives no intimation Is there any Saint living here in any state that is not a man living or is it said no man in the death or that is not yet passed through the death can be justified Alas what be these things but sorry deceitful evasions from plain truth He saies I relate part of our discourse deceitfully and imperfectly and yet after questions whether I relate it or not and then laies down part of what is related about Pauls groning to be delivered c. But wherein I relate it imperfectly much lesse deceitfully he showes not only saies I have belyed and wronged his words and left out the greatest part of them that cleared his answer and yet afterwards saies he could not have liberty to open what he said so much there as here and yet if the Reader compare what I related with the sum of what he saies here where he took his own liberty assuredly without molestation from us he will find that besides his quotations and perversions of what he quotes from John Jeremy Isa of which he then made no mention I clearly laid down the substance of his sayings and that he could not have liberty there to clear his sayings is so far from truth that we often urged him to answer and he was so void of any clearing answer that he would have left the argument to read on our book what did nothing concerne it And that I have cast no lye nor scornfull slander upon him in saying he was baffled as he here charges me may be evident from this that to my demand of him Whether the Apostles and Prophets were not Apostles and Prophets when as he granted they confest they had sin he denies not that he granted yea nor that to my questioning what state it was then of which he said they had a time and state that they had no sin he replied when they were born of God nor that to my question whether they were not born of God when Apostles and Prophets he answered that they as Paul for instance had a time when not born of God viz. when he groaned and travelled waiting for the adoption nor doth he deny that he went about to clear up that that he was not born of God while he so waited for the redemption of the body only faults me for not giving a full relation of what he said to it now then I do demand if he was not baffled to what purpose did he upon my quoting 1 John 5.1 to prove that he was born of God all the time he was an Apostle fly to another answer that Paul spake to conditions below his own If he was not quite beat off his other answer why fled he to this which cannot be true and the other too For if Paul was but then groaning to be born and not born of God then spake he of his own state and if he spaek to others states below his own then then is it not true that he had while an Apostle or then when he said he so waited a time in which he was not born of God so these two shifts clearly overthrow one the other And whereas he saies many that heard the dispute can witnesse against me for impudent belying and slandring him I call God to witnesse in whose presence I am and dare appeal to all indifferent and understanding Auditors that I have not in any thing belyed or slandered him much lesse impudently Let us see what he himself saith he said Paul witnessed saith he the groaning and travelling in pain before the birth was born in him or before he was born of God or in the state of him that was born of God Mark Reader his own inconstancy and

they did To this I answer that 's evident enough that the Quakers do not boast by their not denying our charge against them in our first book but pleading for their conceited sinlessenesse and by what they say here for observe I pray 1. They do but say they own the Apostles and Prophets confessing their sins seeing they say a man born of God hath no sin to confesse either then they deny the Apostles and Prophets when such to have been born of God or how do they own their confessing sin Nay George saies Paul and he may as well say it of all the rest spake not of his own state but other mens 2. What if they own their confessing sins that proves not that the Quakers do confesse them The Scribes and Pharisees owned the Prophets doings yet they did not as the Prophets Thirdly He sayes they have confest them that implies they do not so now But the Apostles and Prophets do not say only they had in times past confest and forsaken them but even when Apostles and Prophets confess them in the present see else David again and again as Psal 6. and 19. and 25. and 38. and 40. so Paul Rom. 7.17 20. We find no time of the Apostles and Prophets while here in which they said they had no sin in them But it seems the Quakers would be thought to be better than the Prophets and Apostles As for their denying themselves and sin I would they did as truly as pretend it but their lying falsifying and passionate language discovers the conntrary in them for all their saying as this peice of Georges sufficiently proves his reproaching the Ministers by the name of Priests as he doth me often with much bitternesse as Priest Horne this Priest this scornefull Priest Horne c. As they argue him not to have put off all malice bitternesse c. So are they not to be mattered by us nor his reproaching any of us as not forsaking our sins but pleading for them its likely Davids enemies did so in Psal 38.15 16 17. to which George hath given no answer though alleged to prove the Quakers such towards us as Davids enemies were to him Doubtlesse these Quakers would have accused the Apostles of not forsaking sin too but pleading for it had they lived in their time and heard them say sin dwelt in them and that in many things they all offend especially they would have taxed David with it that is so often confessing his sin as in part I have noted But see how silly his pretended proof is that sin doth not abide in all men the term of this life and that they are out of the spirit and life of the Prophets and holy men of God it is this They know the fear of the Lord which is to depart from iniquity which fear keeps the heart clean and such as live in it shall not depart from the Lord Jer. 32.40 as if where men know or have the fear of the Lord there is no sin in them and as if to have sin in a man and to depart from the Lord was all one See the folly and falsehood of this passage Did not David know the fear of the Lord which is clean when he said Psalm 19.9 the feare of the Lord is clean enduring for ever or did he speak at randome and yet did not pray presently after cleanse thou me from my secret sins or had not Paul the fear of the Lord or did he depart from the Lord when he delighted in the Law of the Lord in his inner man and yet found another law in his members warring against the law of his mind Rom. 7.21 22 23. Doth not these passages evidence that George Whitehead is so far from being in the strength of God as he boasts that he is a man of no judgement that is right understanding that cannot distinguish between sins being in men and the heart departing from the Lord by sin offending in a mans walking and leaving the way How silly also it is that he accounts it absurd for me to say That people ought to account the Quakers accursed whom we have said to be an heavy judgement of God to us in this Nation for then they must count the judgement of God accursed And again pa. 11. That in striving against and reviling the Quakers we strive against and revile Gods judgement when as we should patiently bear Gods judgements for doth not judgement begin at the house of God 1 Pe. 4.17 and doth he not ordain wicked men for judgement such as the Caldeans Heb. 1.12 and false teachers Jude 4. yea and Satan too as to Job and may we not accompt Satan his instruments accursed and yet not count Gods judgement so or because the judgement of God is just and holy are the wicked men ordained as a judgement holy and just too If God should judge a Nation by sending wild beasts among them must they patiently let the wild beast devour their folkes because they be a judgement sent of God or else do they resist the judgement of God I trow not it s a judgement that we must be put to strive against such beasts and yet that judgement we may patiently bear in all our strifts against them Sure if G. W. cannot distinguish between the judgement of God as a judgement from him and as to the conditions of the thing which he uses as judgements he is but a blind guide and they that follow him will fall into the ditch with him Whereas I say the true Apostles and Prophets never use to speak of themselves as finlesse G. W. saies its false for the true Prophet saies all his judgements were before me and as for his statutes I did not depart from them I was also upright before him and have kept my selfe from my iniquity 2 Sam. 22.24 But mark here Reader that David acknowledges he had then iniquity for how was iniquity his if there was none in him his keeping himself from it is the same with that in the Apostle of not walking after the flesh which also implies flesh to be in them and intice them that walk not after it And David speaks there of his innocency in respect of his carriages toward Saul and his other enemies in the things they accused him in and pretended as just causes of their persecuting him the Psalm being pend upon that occasion as the title shews besides which he committed many sins though yet then notwithstanding it is said of him that he did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord and turned not a side from any thing that he commanded him all the daies of his life save only in the matter of Vriah the Hittite 1 Kings 15.5 But in those things between him and his enemies God rewarded him not after his iniquitie which he kept himself from as in another place Psal 107.10 he hath not dealt with us after our sins nor rewarded us after our iniquities in which

in glory and his glorious Kingdome out of our Prayers for that is in the world to come But sure that world is neither in G. W's Faith nor hope and how should it be in his Prayers nor is that the end with him of preaching and praying seeing he implies that if it be not to be had in this world It 's against the end for which the Discples of Christ prayed as he taught them His calling me Scornful tempter and blind unbeliever for saying if the Quakers have no sin in them let them manifest it by living without bread I passe as proceeding from his Gall and tell him there is difference between Christs and other mens cases He was made under infirmities for our sins sake but if any of us have no sin I know no reason why we should be infirme nor find I any thing from Christ that implies men shall need to pray for dayly bread longer than for forgivenesse of and keeping from sin yea even then when the Disciples are come to that perfect charity as to make their own forgivenesse of others a rule after which they desire God to forgive yet they are willed yet to aske forgivenesse of God and that is a state above G. W's who is ever and anon at his bitter words and reproaches as the Reader of him may see His asking How men may be kept from sin if they may not be kept from it according to me Intimately charges a lye upon me or discovers great ignorance and deceit in him David was kept from his iniqnitie yet he calls it his iniquity a man that hath sin in him may be kept from its getting dominion over him as David implies Psal 19.12 13. And from committing it or consenting to it as Paul was when he saith it was no more he that did it but sin that dwelt in him That Their roote is rottennesse though they be appointed as a judgement is as understandable as that the Caldeans were wicked and unholy and yet ordained for judgement of God And as their being unholy hindre● not the holynesse of Gods Judgement so neither doth the rottennes● of these mens roots at all reflect upon the soundnesse of Gods judgements seeing he makes use of wicked men whose roots are rottennesse to be for his rods and judgements Lastly to his casting the lye upon me in what I related of their uncivil and impudent posting me up as going away to avoid them because he saies those words were not in it I answer what if those very expresse words were not in it things may be couched in expressions where the very same words are not expresly mentioned as the Doctrine of the Resurrection of Christ shewed to be in Moses doctrine though the word Resurrection is not expressed therein their words in what they posted were thus This is to give notice that the said I. H. was lawfully called which was false for a call to break promise was not lawfull by the Q. whom he so accused so publickly to prove if he could what he so promised and that he had sufficient notice being three daies aforehand of the time wherein we desired to meet him wherein also their falsehood and wikednesse appears Their falshood for I had notice but the day before they came whereas I was to have notice two or three daies before that Their wickednesse in that it appears they would dave tyed me to have met them on the Saturday which I knew must have been on purpose to spend me that I might have been disabled from preaching the following day But in stead of performing his promise mind against the Q. he the said I. H. went out of the Town and so hath not performed his promise against the Qua. which is false for I did not promise to do it at their next coming but expresly excepted against it because of my fore-ingaged journy neither can he And a little after they say People hereby may discerne the diceit of these men how having spread many rayling and false accusations against the Q. when they are tryed have refused to meet us publikely Now Reader compare these shameful falsities and see if they amount to lesse than an impudent suggestion that I went out of Town to refuse making good my charge which that I have made good through the strength of God both my former relation and this vindication of it clearly testify What they note as lies in me stand firme for truths both as to my assertions so far as asserted by me without his alterations and as to my charges of them as is made manifest and George and the Quakers are found clearly to be the Deceivers and Lyers as in these following particulars amongst others in saying or implying 1. That I have not proved my charge but bragged of a victory where was none 2. That they come as the Apostles because they have confessed fins though now they do not as they the Apostles did when Apostles 3. That they the Quakers have forsaken their sins yet they are found in lies and bitternesse 4. That the judgements of God are such as his judgements as the nature of the things or persons that be used by him as Judgements 5. That David boasted of finlesnesse in him where he calls iniquity his 6. That they that say the Saints have sin in them plead for sin and so they make the Apostles and Prophets pleaders for sin 7. That the Apostles were without sin in this world as Christ is contrary to their own sayings in 1 John 1.8 10. and 2.1 2. Jam. 3.2 8. That not whosoever believes Jesus to be the Christ is born of God for many he saies believe● that are not born of God contrary to 1 John 5.1 9. That the Apostles and Prophets when they confert sins were not true believers nor born of God 10. Nor the Disciples when Christ taught them to call God Father c. 11. That some men living are so sinlesse in themselves that if God should enter into judgement with them yet they may be justified in Gods sight contrary to Psal 143.2 12. That Asa's heart was perfect all his daies but not all his life-time 13. That persons of no judgement or right understanding can affirme or deny nothing contrary to Jer. 4.22 14. That Christ's coming from Heaven spoken of 1 Thes 4.15 16 17. is either often in diverse ages or else over and past already 15. That the Redemption of the body waited for and groaned after by the Apostles and Saints they had it in this life before they deceased 16. That the Saints waited not for things to be given them many hundred years after contrary to Heb. 11.13 39 40. 17. That our looking for the coming of Christ from Heaven personally and visibly to raise the dead Saints that are bodily dead is but our imagination and a carnal looking for him 18. That the coming of Christ mentioned 1 Thes 4.15 is but a revelation of Christ to the Saints from glory to glory 19.