Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
judgement_n	according_a	church_n	scripture_n	1,819	5	5.8931	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A62340	Separation yet no schisme, or, Non-conformists no schismaticks being a full and sober vindication of the non-conformists from the charge and imputation of schisme, in answer to a sermon lately preached before the Lord Mayor by J.S.	J. S.	1675 (1675)	Wing S86; ESTC R24503	61,039	79

is to say in those that have the Government of it I answer If you mean hereby that Jesus Christ hath by directions and precepts provided what is necessary for the due and orderly performance of Gods worship and likewise for the preserving his Churches in peace and Unity and that he hath in a special manner intrusted those directions and precepts with the Pastors of Churches to teach and command the Churches to worship God according to these directions and to keep unity among themselves and likewise to reprove and censure the obstinate according to the said directions and precepts so I yield the whole of what is said But if you mean thereby that Christ hath intrusted the Governours of Churches with an Arbitrary power to institute such things for a pretended due and orderly worship which neither were in use with Christ and his Apostles or those first Churches or that are no ways necessary in themselves but are at least seemingly contrary to the Genius of a Gospell-worship which is Eminently spirituall and to presse these under the penalties of Excommunication as if the Churches could not duely and orderly worship God and be kept in unity without them In this sence I deny that any such power is to be supposed to be Lodged in the Governours of the Church for it is a power altogether uselesse and impertinent and in the consequence destructive For Christ and his Apostles and those first Churches worshipped God and kept unity in a more excellent manner than we do and yet without the use of these humanely invented things that you Impose He goes on From hence saith he it is plain that the Church hath a power to restrain the exercise of her Subjects Liberty as to oblige them to all such Laws Rules Orders Ceremonies as she shall Establish for the ends aforesaid I answer When you have either better proved the necessity or real usefullness of the laws rules ceremonies to the ends aforesaid or that Christ hath given any such power to the said Governours which hitherto you have but meerly beg'd then I will yeild to what you say as true But otherwise it is but a poor naked Lanck Assertion that stands by it self unproved and so I leave it But as to what he adds And if it be Questioned whether her Appointments do indeed conduce to that end of that she her self is to be Judge her members being no farther concerned therein than onely before they obey her Impositions to see that they be not repugnant to the known Laws of God I Answer First let it be considered that he grants a Judgment of discretion to the people antecedent to and a ground of their Obedience to such Laws upon this I say it will follow that if the members upon searching the Scriptures and praying to God for his Spirit to direct them are left after such a search under strong perswasions that the very making such Laws and appointing such Ceremonies and binding them on the disciples necks under the penalties of Excommunication is a meer usurpation and that those Ceremonies themselves are of such a low carnall beggerly consideration extreamly ill suited to the manly State of the Church and the Spirituality of a Gospel worship I say if upon these and other considerations they continue strongly perswaded that both the one and the other are thus repugnant to the Will and Law of Christ it will be the members duty in such a case to disobey It will not here be sufficient for you to say but they are mistaken there is no such real repugnancy as they Imagine For since you leave them to be Judges whether there is or is not it is but equall that those you leave to be Judges that they should be left to act according to their judgements in such a case as this is which you yield to fall under their cognisance And the truth is if you will not yield such a Liberty of judgment as this is you must bid them put out their eyes and follow their Leaders in a blind Obedience and in case their Leaders be blind also you would there in direct them to an excellent expedient how they may come all to fall into the Ditch He Infers again Hence it will follow that the Church must be furnished with a power to end and determine controversies of Religion that arise among its membmers that is to say to give an Authoritative decision of them as that all parties are bound to acquiesce in it else she could not preserve her self in peace and unity What you say here may be differently understood according to the nature of the points about which the controversie is if the matters of difference or controversie be such as may be held by both sides without any considerable damage to either of their Solutions then I grant that if Church Governours determine as the Apostle you confesse pag. 1. doth that those differing parties should remember each other as brethren and Communicate with each other as such forbearing to censure each other as being the Lords servants to whom they must stand or fall that the members ought to acquiesce in this their determination But in case that Church Governours shall side with one party and with them shall contrary to the said rule and practice of the Apostle endeavour to force by their determination the other party to do and say as they do or else to excommunicate them I say in this case these Governours usurp an Authority to themselves above and beyond what the Apostle had or thought fit to exercise And Likewise that it is not the Duty of the party so Imposed upon to submit contrary to what they conceive to be the Will of God in that case For he that doth or saith any thing against his doubting Conscience is in the same Condition of Damnation as he that doubteth and eateth which the Apostle Instanceth in If the points of Controversie be about such matters where those that hold on one side do Espouse such doctrines or ways of worship that are of very dangerous Consequence to the Salvation to their Souls such are they that are espoused by Arians Socinians Papists I say In these instances if Church Governours determine on the right side according to the plain Revelations of Gods word in Scriptures the Members are bound to acquiesce therein but not meerely because of their determination but because their determinations are sounded on the Revelations of God but in case the said Governours should contrary to the said Revelations determine on the wrong side that is to say for the Socinians Arrians Papists I say then the Members were not obliged to acquiesce in these determinations notwithstanding all the pretences of Unity and Peace that may be obtained thereby The Author being sensible that what he last said if taken in the utmost extent of its signification would be dangerous begins to limit his sence thereof and indeed it is but high time he should Here saith he it may

be taken notice that this Power of ending Controversies which we ascribe to the Church doth not imply any Authority over our Judgements or that in virtue thereof she can oblige us to give an inward assent to her determinations any further than she gives us evidence for the Truth of them which is that extravagant Power the Church of Rome doth challenge to her self So far we are agreed he adds but our practices that she can oblige us to submit so far to her definitions as not to act any thing contrary to them this is absolutely necessary to prevent the over running of Heresies and the embroyling the Church in infinite quarrels and Controversies to the destruction of the publick Peace I answer first by concession I grant according to this here is good Provision made for the Purity and Peace of the Church so long as the Governours determine on the right side But in case they determine on the wrong it is then so bad an expedient to prevent Heresies that I do not know a more effectuall tool for the overspreading the Church with them than this is for in case they determine for Socinians Arrians Popery you say that the Members are obliged as to their practice though not as to their Judgements to Acquiesce in the said determinations I confesse herein you have shewed a great care of preserving a Peace but what a Peace is it not a Peace of the Church of Christ but the Peace of a confederacy or conspiracy against the true Church of Christ But if this were true then in the times of the predominancy of Arianisme when some hundreds of Arian Bishops met in Councel and determined wickedly against the Deity of Christ in that point to himself and never to have declared against that abomination for fear of disturbing the Peace of the Church and as for Wickliffe Husse Hierome of Prague and afterwards Luther they were all Peace breakers in declaring against the abominable opinions and Antichristian Faith of the Church of Rome they ought all of them to have kept their Judgements to themselves and so to have acquiesced in the determinations of that wicked Church Or when Jeroboam Apostatized and set up two Calves at Dan and Bethel and commanded the people there to Worship they ought onely to have kept their judgements to themselves but other wise to have conformed in outward practice to the instituted Worship which to say is contrary to the Judgement of God in that case who commended his 7000 in Israel that bowed not the knee to Baal the commendation was that they neither conformed in Judgement nor practice If it be said that the Authour only meant that such determinations only obliged the practice Negatively that is to say that the Members are thereby bound not to practise any thing contrary to them Very good let that be his meaning now I would fain know what are those acts wherein Members may be said to practise contrary to such determinations what if they withdraw and refuse Communion with such a Church that holds to such determinations is this to be reputed a practising any thing to the contrary if it be then so did those 7000 Israelites and yet are commended for so doing if so to withdraw may not be thought to be an acting contrary inasmuch as the Peace may be kept notwithstanding such a withdrawing then do you ill according to your own principles to compell under penalties all dissenters to conform to you since the Peace may be preserved notwithstanding their Non-conformity and withdrawing But yet again may a publick declaration by word of Mouth or writing be judged an acting contrary to such determinations I doubt not but you think it so to be Then I demand when the People of Israel met together at the tryal by Sacrifice whether God or Baal was the true God says Elisha to them why halt you betwixt Jehova and Baal if God be God follow him if Baal follow him Here the people were left to their choice to conclude upon the Worshipping of which God they were convinced to be the true God by that tryal In conclusion the People being throughly convinced by a miracle that Jehova and not Baal was the true God They publickly by word of mouth declared Jehovah he is God Jehovah he is God I ask was this declaration an acting contrary to the established Worship of the Land if it was then according to you it was unlawful and contrary to the Peace of that corrupt Church for they ought to have stood mute and kept their Judgements to themselves for fear of disturbing the Peace of Baals Worshipers Perhaps you will say this was an extraordinary case for a miracle was here wrought by a great Prophet which gave a virtual warrant to the People for such a declaration though contrary to the Peace of the Church I answer the immediate reason of this acclamation was the conviction of their judgements that Jehovah was the onely true God the remote cause was the miracle wrought by the Prophet which was the cause of the conviction so that the immediate warrant for that acclamation was their conviction the remote warrant for it was the miracle now I ask you if there be the same degree or a sufficient degree of conviction in any other people that this or that decision of Governours of Churches be clearly against the mind of God though the reason of the conviction be not a miracle wrought in their presence but a consideration of what is evidently declared in the Bible that in its time had the confirmation of many miracles wrought by a greater than Elisha even by the Son of God whether this conviction so wrought gives not as good and ample Authority to either Ministers or People to declare by Word of Mouth or Writing against such decisions of Church Governours which have determined evidently against plain Revelations as this People of Israel had for this their publick declaration which if granted then I say there is no such obligation that lies upon Church Members to acquiesce in the unrighteous decisions of Church Governours so as not to act or practise contrary there to which you have affirmed and I have denyed and let the Reader judge which hath the better reason of his side for what either of us say and thus have I answered to the third Proposition His Fourth Proposition That we can have no just cause of withdrawing our Communion from the Church whereof we are Members but when we cannot Communicate with it without the Commission of sin In this Proposition he speaks of Christians as supposed to be in actual Fellowship with some visible Church by Church he understands either some particular Worshiping Congregation or a National Church as for this latter notion of a Church when he hath shewed us that it was or is the will of Christ that all the Christians in every Nation should after the manner of the Jews be united under the same visible Head of