that regard it is not compleat full or entire If of a Power compleat in its own kinde or nature ye say nothing but what we say since it is our opinion That every Particular Congregation hath a compleat Power in it self such as is due to such a Congregation dependent upon that of Classes and Synods in case of Appeal whereby it may be challenged to erre grosly If it be so Wherefore contest ye with us who give you no subject of quarrell as not dissenting from you in that particular Pag. 14. 2º they say That they claim not an independent power in every Congregation to give an account or to be subject to no others Answ Then your power is dependent upon some others then it must give an account and be subject to some other If subject to some others then that other is superiour And what say we more onely we say that there is a subordination betwixt superiour and inferiour Ecclesiastical Judicatories which ye hold here to be juris divini we partim divini partim naturalis aut mixti I pray you Brethren agree these two Propositions how a Church can have a full and compleat Government and yet not independent it should seem to me that either you contradict not us or contradict your selves within the compasse of two lines Pag. 14. 3º they deny That by the Institution of Christ or his Apostles the Combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleat and entire seat of Church-power over each Church so combined Here ye attribute unto our Churches an opinion That they own not as their own viz. That the Combination of Elders of many Churches is the first Seat of church-Church-power for they hold the contrary viz. That the first Seat of Government is in Parochiall Churches since there the parties debates their cause in first Instances if ye say that by first ye understand the principall then ye cannot deny but that Senate or Assembly whereunto Particular Congregations are subject whose judgement according to Gods Word they must obey and of whose judgement their judgements depend must be the principall Seat of church-Church-power for that is principall whereof the other dependeth and to which the other is subject Neither say we That it is the compleat and entire Seat of all Ecclesiasticall Judgement since in things of lesse concernment and that onely belong to Particular Congregations we hold the Eldership of that Congregation may judge and sometimes judges in effect compleatly and entirely But ye propound a tacite Objection The Eldership so combined cannot challenge authority over the Churches they feed not Answ 1. We have answer'd That our Eldership challengeth no such authority to it self 2. That this argument striketh no lesse at your judgements of Neighbour Churches against Particular Congregations then at that of combined Elderships against a Particular Church since your Neighbour Churches feed no more that particular Congregation then our combined Elderships a particular Church 2. We deny that our Classes and Synods or as ye call them combined Presbyteries or Elderships feed not particular Congregations for they govern them which is a certain sort of feeding due to Elders and in this signification Kings Princes and Dukes are called Pastors or feeders of their People because they rule them Jor. 6.3 and 12 10. But to bring more light to this captious Proposition and all fallacious Arguments that may be grounded hereupon here I will more fully declare in what sense these Propositions may be true or false viz. 1. The combined Eldership hath power to feed rule and teach the Church or all Particular Churches 2. The combined Eldership feedeth or ruleth all Particular Churches 3. The Elders of the combined Eldership have power to feed or rule Particular Churches And for this effect note 1. That the feeding or teaching of the Church may be taken either in actu secundo for actuall feeding or the exercise of the power of feeding as when a Preacher teaches actually c. 2. In actu primo for the morall power which Ministers have to teach in vertue of their Vocation and Mission to their Charge and Admission into it So the Power to feed howsoever it signifie formally the Actum primum as ruling Actum secundum may be taken in Actu primo for the Power that a Minister hath to feed or in Actu secundo for the Act of feeding proceeding from the power or first act 3. Item in Actu signato when a power or an act is signified to belong to a thing that exerciseth not the act as when a King commands but putteth it not in execution or in actu exercito when it is exercised so particular Officers have the power in actu exercito which the King and superiour Judges and Magistrates have in actu signato 3. That the Ministers or Elders of the Eldership may be considered in quality of a collective body of Elders or severally every one apart which the School-men call ordinarily collectivè distributivè If severally then either Absolutely without any relation to the collective body of the Eldership and in quality of particular Ministers of their own Particular Churches or with some relation or respect to the collective body or combination of the Eldership viz. as parts thereof 4. The whole collective body of the Eldership may be taken either formally as it is a collection of sundry Elders according to the Order established in the Church representing many Churches combined and consociated from which they have their Commissions or materially in quality of Ministers or Elders of whom the Consociation or Combination or Synod or Classicall Assembly of Elders is compounded 5. Both the collective body or consociation of Elders which is a representative body of many Churches as also every particular reall Church and the whole Militant Church may be considered as other things aut ut Totum simpliciter aut ut Totum totaliter either as a Totall or Totally as a Whole or wholly so may we say of omne it may be taken simpliciter pro omne vel pro Omni omnino vel omni modo this word All may be taken absolutely for all or for all considered all manner of wayes or altogether Then a Totum is taken totaliter or totally or a whole thing wholly and this word All all wayes when it is taken according to all the Modifications that it can have As for example Peter is a Totum or a Whole-man when he is lying in his Bed at Rome he is Totus Romae all or whole at Rome but not Totaliter totally not wholly or all wayes for he may sit and stand at Rome and when he is lying he is not according to these other wayes and Modifications viz. standing c. Yea I may say that it is impossible That at one time a Totum be or exist in one place totum totaliter i. e. Secundum omnes suos modes possibiles multi enim divisim sunt possibiles sed conjunctim
Here ye mistake for we can produce you sundry others of good note here Printed at London we are sorry ye have not seen them or disdained to read them If there were not many written before those it was in pittie of your afflictions whereunto good Divines would not adde new affliction Neither thought they your Partie so considerable Neither were your Opinions much known or published abroad being onely written in English and not in Latine except by one or two of your Divines for any thing I know Neither thought they that ye were so averse from their Discipline as ye appear in this Assembly but that ye suffered only for not conforming your selves unto Episcopall Government But whatever they have written I know not what this can serve to the purpose unlesse it be to declare That whatsoever helps ye had heretofore yet ye were destitute of those writings whereby ye might have received farther light concerning Presbyteriall Government and I pray God ye make good use of them In the 16. § at the end of the 16. Pag. Ye travell to remove an Objection viz. That in Congregationall Government such as is amongst you there is no allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages though never so grosse no relief for wrongfull Sentences or Persons injured thereby no room for Complaints No Powerfull or Effectuall means to reduce a Church or Churches that fall into Heresie or Schisme c. To avoid this Objection ye relate us an History § 17. and what ye did upon such an emergent case But ye shew us no Law that ever ye had amongst you whereby ye might bring any remedie against such a miscarriage before that it fell out 2. Neither read we of any such Law or remedie in your Books before this 3. Your Divines and the Members of your Churches with whom we conversed shewed no remedie amongst you for such inconveniencies 4. They gave us no answer unto this Objection save onely this That God hath ordained no remedies in such Cases Yea that if Churches should fall away from Christ and with the Jews call him an Impostor and the Trinitie with Servet a three headed Cat and deny the Incarnation of the Son of God they should be tolerated Yea more That the Civill Magistrate should punish no man for his Religion be it never so bad or blasphemous and that it must be left to God And this giveth us reason to think That these Reasons within these two yeers have made you to refine your Opinion and to mould some new Solutions and to suite your Opinions more close to the current of the time then you were wont to do If therefore we speak after them it is their fault and not ours it may be that your Opinion be not common to you all but to you five alone The sum of the History is A Minister was suddenly deposed by his Flock whereupon some Churches did take offence and all their Churches consented in this Principle That Churches 1 Cor. 10.32 1 Tim. 5.22 as well as particular men are bound to give no offence neither to Jew nor Gentile nor the Churches of God they live among Item That in vertue of the same or like Law of not partaking in other mens sins the Churches offended may and ought upon the Impenitency of those Churches persisting in their errour and miscarriage to pronounce that heavy sentence against them of withdrawing and renouncing all Christian Communion with them untill they do repent And further to declare and protest this with the causes thereof to all Christian Churches of Christ that they may do the like In this Narration it appeareth 1. That this Church offending before this emergent Case knew not so much for if she had it is not credible that she would against all charitie and the common order of all Churches have committed so great a scandall 2. This remedie is not sufficient nor satisfactory 1. Because all Churches according to your Tenets be equall in Authoritie Independent one of another and par in parcm non habet Imperium none hath power or Authoritie over his equall how then could any Church binde another to any such account but out of its freewill as a partie may do to its partie 3. Because since other Churches were or pretended to be offended in such a proceeding they could not judge in it for then they should have been both judge and partie in one cause which cannot be granted to those that have no Authoritative Power one over another as when a private man offendeth the State and we our God 4. What if many Churches yea all the Churches should offend one should that one Church gather all the rest together judge them all and in case of not submitting themselves to her judgement separate her self from them all If so we should have Separations and Schismes enough which should be continued to all Posteritie to come 5. What if Churches were so remote one from another that they could not easily meet together upon every occasion Then there should be no remedy or at least no easie remedy 6. What if the Offence were small should so many Churches for every trifle gather together and put themselves to so great cost and trouble 7. What if the Churches in their Judgements should differ one from another in such a case should they all by Schismes separate themselves one from another 8. This sort of Government giveth no more Power or Authoritie to a thousand Churches over one then to a Tincker yea to the Hangman over a thousand for he may desire them all out of charitie to give an account of their Judgement in case he be offended by them Neither see I what more our Brethren grant to all the Churches of the World over one But the Presbyteriall Government is subject to none of these inconveniencies for the collective or combined Eldership having an authoritative Power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves thereunto Every man knoweth their set times of meeting wherein sundry matters are dispatched and all things carried by pluralitie of voices without any Schisme or Separation 9. This Government is a Power wherein the Partie is judged if he will and so the judgement of the Judges suspended upon the judgement of the Partie judged which is most ridiculous without any example in Ecclesiasticall or Civill Judicatories a judgement indeed not very unlike to that which is related of a merry man who said he had the best and most obedient wife of the whole World because saith he she willeth nothing but what I will and as all men wondred at it knowing her to be the most disobedient yea saith he but I must first will what she willeth else she willeth nothing that I will 10. This sort of Government is unjust and unreasonable for not onely the Partie judgeth its Partie but also it inflicteth the same punishment viz. Separation upon all offending Churches what ever be the offence great or small
2.11 1 Tim. 1.2 Tit. 1.4 Phil 2.10 1 Ioh. 2.1.28 and 3.7 and 4.4 The Ministers and the Elders are not onely our Brethren but also our Fathers Ergo they must as well use paternall authority over us as brotherly charity towards us 4. So also combined Presbyteries or as it were Fathers of simple Presbyteries because of their greater power to judge 5. The like of this Government hath never been heard of in the world neither in State nor Common-wealth before and therefore seemeth it to us to be repugnant unto the Law of Nature for what else is the Law of Nature but the common consent of all men How absurd therefore is that Government so destitute of all authority have the sheep as great authoirty as the Sheepherd if so it is as good to be a sheep as a Sheepherd 6. If an Authoritative power cannot hold in the Church or among Churches because that we are all Brethren and Sisters no more can it hold in the State betwixt King and Subject the father and the son the master and the servant for we are all Brethren in Christ so this Foundation or Ground-work will destroy all sort of Politicall and Domesticall Authority Our Brethren would do well also to consider whether their Grounds or those of our Government will better consist with the Authority of the civill Magistrate for according to this reason a King in a State should have no power at all over his Brother 7. In the State there be divers Judicatories Superiour and Inferiour wherein the Superiour hath an authoritative power over the inferiour Ergo in the Church since there is the same reason for both viz. reparation of the offence taken at inferiour Judicatories But because ye will seem to be much addicted to the civill Magistrate as if your Ecclesiasticall Government were altogether subordinate unto his power and blame us as not giving him his due which ye note by a particular Parenthesis as if ye would have us to take particular notice of it Therefore before we end this Section we shall be very willing to do it In saying that the Presbyteriall Excommunication is no more effectuall then your Sentence of non-Communion without the Magistrates Power ye adde this Parenthesis To which we give as much and as we think more then the Principles of the Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld By whose counsell or for what end this Parenthesis is inserted and such a comparison made I know not If ye have no Politicall ayms I am assured ye comply very much with Policy If ye grant him so much ye would do well to declare how much and wherein and not to feed him with generalities and Platonicall Idees as abstract here from all matter as ye professed formerly your Church-Government was abstracted from all other Governments It is a Maxime in Philosophy and in Rhetorick both That Sermones generales non movent and praised be God that the King and Parliament are wise and will not feed upon so abstract forms As for us since ye keep your selves upon such generalities it is impossible to us to answer any thing in particular unlesse we guesse at your meaning In generall therefore we say 1. That amongst men well bred all comparisons are odious 2. That either ye give unto the civill Magistrate onely his due or something more if onely his due ye lay a very heavie aspersion upon all Presbyterians as if they were not good Subjects in denying him a part of his due If more who gave you the power to do so 3. Either ye grant him more in Civill or in Spirituall matters In Civill matters ye cannot for ye can grant him no more then he hath by the Laws of the Land whereunto we are all equally subject and therefore must grant him as much one as another If in Spirituall matters we grant him his externall power as we declared in the beginning And for intrinsecall Spirituall power 1. It is not in your power to grant him any at all neither can ye give him more Spirituall obedience then Scripture permitteth you or give him a part of the Spirituall power that ye have received of God for that were to lay upon another the burden that God hath laid upon you and so serve God by a Proctor 2. It is onely in God who is King in this Spirituall Kingdom Master in this House and a Father in this Family who can give power therein to any man we dare not be so bold If ye pretend to do it I say with the Comick Poet de te largitor puer be liberall upon your own purse 4 If ye will do so look how Authoritative is your power who take Authority over Gods Ordinance and dispose of it as if it were your own so do not the Presbyterians 5. The Civill Magistrate acknowledgeth himself to be a Politicall and no Ecclesiasticall person since he is neither Pastor nor Doctor nor Ruling Elder in Christs Church and therefore arrogateth no Spirituall Authority to himself 6. We desire to know of you Brethren what ye understand here by the Magistrate Whether the Supreme or Subaltern If the Supreme whether the King or Parliament and principally at this time If the Subaltern we ask of you Whether every Justice of Peace shall or can judge of all Ecclesiasticall matters And if he cannot whether he can be a competent Judge 7. What if the Civill Magistrate be a Papist what if some of the Kings Councell be Papists or Heterodox as some in the beginning of this Parliament were will ye grant that they judge in matters of Religion So the Turk the Antichrist and Pagans shall judge in matters of Religion amongst their Protestant Subjects If so our Protestants in France in Polonia and otherwhere are in a very fair way Its pity but such a Maxime should have been published in Queen Maries time and at Saint Bartholomews day in France at that Butchery or Massacre of Protestants 8. The Apostle 1 Cor. 6. findes fault with the Christians that did plead before Infidels in civill matters what then would he not have said if godly men would have pleaded before them and submitted matters of Religion unto their judgement 9. This power that ye grant to the Magistrate is either Internall or Externall in regard of the Church If Externall we grant it as well as ye If Internall then he must be an Ecclesiasticall Person And then 10. It should follow That a Soveraign Prince should as well be Soveraign in the Church as in the State and so Internall head of both which is derogatory to Christs Royaltie as our Doctors have sundry times cleerly demonstrated it against the Jesuites and other Papists 11. Women that are commanded to be silent in the Church should rule it and command men in it since they may be Soveraign Princes in it and over it and so Leglise tomberoit on quenvillo And if it be replyed wherefore may they not as well rule the Church as the
come neerer unto Presbyteriall Government then formerly 6. But we know not whether they of New-England will stand fast to them in this decision If we knew all the Circumstances of that proceeding we might it may be say much more then upon such a superficiall and unwilling Relation as ye make we can say here Again I pray you note That they acknowledge their Churches to be bound to give an account and to be censurable by the Christian Magistrate and Neighbour Churches in their judgements From whence I infer Ergo Their power is not full perfect and compleat within themselves but receives some correction and perfection from that of the Civill Magistrate above them or Neighbour Churches about them But what is this but an authoritative power to correct them and to inflict on them spirituall punishments viz. Censures in commanding them to satisfie the Partie offended and to consesse their fault Neither do the Presbyterians pretend to inflict any corporall punishment or pecuniary mulcts since the aym of their Government is spirituall viz. To save the soul not to kill the body or empty the purse by catching mens money § 22. Pag 22. Ye give an account of your proceedings since your return to your Countrey And here again ye terme the Reformation of the Protestant Churches by the name of Calvinian as if this name in this matter pleased you above all others yet will we not retaliate it unto you in calling your Churches Goodwinians Nyans Bridgians Burroughesians Sympsonians or Good-Ny Bridg-Burrough-Sympsonians for we take no pleasure in such fictions Afterwards ye give your five judgements about that Reformation viz. That our Churches stand in need of a further Reformation 1. But stand not yours in need of some further Reformation also 2. Neither is it in question whether our Churches stand in need of any further Reformation But whether they stand in need of that which ye call Reformation And if it be not rather a Deformation then a Reformation of the Church of Christ The Reasons of this your judgement are grounded upon meer Possibilities and generalities as we shall see God willing hereafter The first is Because it may be thought that they coming new out of Popery and the founders of that Reformation not having Apostolique infallibitie might not be fully perfect the first day Answ 1. It may be but a possâ— ad â—ssâ— non valet consequentia 2. It followeth not it may be Ergo It is Neither will ye permit us to argue in this manner Master Goodwin Master Nays c. opinion may be false Ergo It is false 3. Muchlesse may it be thought or imagined Ergo It is so For we think all your Tenets wherein ye dissent from us are false and untrue Neither will ye grant it for all our thoughts No more will we grant you what ye pretend for all your thoughts unlesse ye bring us some better reason for many mens thoughts be erroneous as yours in this particular 4. Your Argument is a Genere ad Specicm affirmativè ye argue affirmatively from a generalitie to a particular viz. It might not be fully perfect or imperfect Ergo In this or that point it was not perfect or imperfect 5. Neither is it needfull to a perfect Reformation in Doctrine or Discipline that we have an Apostolicall perfection that is Personall or tyed unto our Person but Scripturall viz. Revealed in Scripture which we have not of one but of many Prophets Evangelists and Apostles 6. This expression of yours viz. Might not be fully perfect the first dâ—â— is ambiguous and may be taken either Negative in putting the negation not before the principall Verbe viz. might or Infinite in putting of it after the Verbe might before the infinitie Verbe be In the first way the sense of it is this They that come new from Popery without Apostolicall infallibility cannot be perfect the first day or it was not possible they should be perfect the first day and so it is evidently false for it should imply a contradiction that any man or Church could have a perfect Doctrine or Discipline without an Apostolicall infallibilitie or a long time In the second way the sense is this They that come new from Popery without Apostolicall infallibilitie may not be perfect or it is possible they be not perfect the first day and so it is true But as it is possible they be not perfect so is it possible by Gods mercy they be perfect And so the Argument will proceed a posse ad esse whereof Logicians say Non valet consequentia So your Argument is naught Of these two Propositions the first is Negative and the last Infinite They differ as Non possibile est esse Possibile est non esse The one hath the Mood or Modification Negative the other the Subject or Dictum Negative the one is true and the other false as ye may see in these Examples It was not possible to Adam before his fall to fall False It was possible to Adam before his fall not to fall True So. It is not possible that Peter sleep False It is possible that Peter sleep not True Neither doth time contribute so much neither hath it any influence upon true Religion which is a gift of God Faith is not acquired by our labour but infused into our understanding by Gods Mercy And yet we have had more time and a greater number of able men then ye to perfect our Reformation And as it was possible that the Reformation of our Church was not perfect the first day So may it be possible that yours be not perfect neither the first nor the last day But ye grant us § 5. Pag. 4. That the first Reformers in Protestant Churches had a most happy hand in the Reformation of Doctrine and that in the beginning and without any Apostolicall infallibilitie wherefore I pray then might they not also have it as well in Discipline or Government I remit the Reader to that Section and my Annotation thereupon 2. Your second Reason is grounded not onely upon possibilities but also upon hope for it may be hopefully conceived say ye that God in his infinite mercy and purpose reserved and provided some better thing for this Nation when it should come to be reformed that the other Churches might not be made perfect without it as the Apostle speaks Answ 1. This is but a possibile est esse it may be quod nihil ponit in esse that maketh nothing to be The question is not what may be but what is in effect 2. And as it may be so may it not be 3. It is not so much as a may be of any thing that is to be but a may be or a possible hope of a thing that may be O how far is this Reason from proving the thing to be 4 And as for that Text of the Apostle Heb. 11.48 Ye abuse mightily the place of Scripture or are abused for it is not to be understood of
and severe Tribunall and most Sacred refuge and Asylum of mis-judged innocence requireth not of you By Thomas Goodwin c. We have hereupon already expressed in the Epistle and in our seventh observation what many Learned and good men desire and what may be their judgement hereupon about you five Pag. 1. Now Members of the Assembly of Divines and this also we have touched in our Epistle and upon humbly submitted Notes upon the first Page Sect. 1. OVr ears c. Here beginneth this Apologeticall Narration which from this unto the ninth Section Page the fifth hath little or nothing materiall touching the questions in controversie betwixt our Brethren and us Onely it containeth a Narration of their godly wayes whereupon they have never been challenged by their Brethren that ever I could hear of filled with exclamations What can be these exclamations or exclamators we know not and therefore answers not Sect. 2. And now c. It may seem very probable to reasonable men 1. That it should have been more seasonable To have made this appearance into publike light before your entrance into the Assembly then so many Moneths after 2. Before your Brethren in submitting your spirit of Prophets unto that of the whole Assembly then in this extraordinary way unparalelled by any like unto it in the world 3. To have sought of them a Testimony then after this way to take it at your own hand and give it unto your selves lain under so dark a cloud Ye avow hereafter that it is vanished away so ye lose your pains in taking away a cloud that is no more See our fourth observation The Supreme Judicatory severe Tribunall the most Sacred Refuge and Asylum for mistaken and mis-judged innocence The Parliament indeed is all this in civill causes but it pretends no directive power in matters of Religion by teaching or preaching or judging of controversies of Religion nor any executive power that is intrinsecall unto the Church as in the Vocation Deposition and Suspension of Ministers in Ecclesiasticall Censures in Excommunication c. which are meerly spirituall but onely an executive coercitive and externall power which is not in but about the Church and for the Church whereby it compelleth refractory men to obey the Church And this authoritie belongs actually and in effect in actu exercito as they say jure in re to true Christian Magistrates but to others potentially in actu signate and jure in rem onely till they become true Christians In vertue of this Authority when Parties pretend to be offended by the Church or if the Church judge any thing amisse he may command the Church to revise and re-examine its judgement and to reforme it if it containeth any thing amisse And in this sense Constantine the Great refusing an unjust and exorbitant power that the Counsell gave to him said very wisely Vos in Ecclessa ego extra Ecclesiam Episcopus For he was no Ecclesiasticall Minister Overseer or Controller but Gods Minister in the State for the weal of his Church in the State which was not formally of the State howsoever materially it was in the State Wherefore if your meaning here be That the Parliament should judge of the questions in debate betwixt you and your Brethren ye go against the Parliaments intention which esteeming it self to have no calling of God thereunto very wisely did convocate an Assembly of Divines to that effect Neither beleeve I that ye will grant unto it and the Assembly both such an authority or if ye grant it I doubt if ye will submit your selves unto it And indeed to grant them such a power were nothing else but to joyn your selves with the Arminians who granted it to the Civill Magistrate when they thought to have had him for them and afterwards repented themselves when they found him against them Sect. 3. Pag. 2. The most c. To this Paragraph I have nothing to say but that it is the judgement of many very judicious and godly Divines That a Pastour is bound to stay with his Flock so long as he is not pressed to be an Actor in any thing against his conscience which many good men have done in this Kingdom and in so doing upheld many others Sect. 4. Pag. 2. Neither c. Here I note two things 1. Ye call other Churches your Neighbour Churches if so they are your sister Churches And then how is it That ye will not admit all the Members of their Churches unto your Communion at the Table of the Lord Will ye or dare ye communicate with them or not If ye dare how dare ye not admit them all unto your Communion If ye dare not how can ye hold them for Brethren with whom ye dare not eat or drink at that spirituall Feast of Brotherly Love and Charity 2. Ye tell us That for fear of violence and persecution ye made choice of a voluntary exile If this be said to excuse your departure I have nothing to say But if it be to blame them that notwithstanding all persecution remained in their stations I remit the Reader to the third Section onely I adde this That they who notwithstanding their personall persecutions remained in their Stations in confirming others are no lesse to be commended then ye Neither is the Souldier lesse valourous that standeth by his Colours fighting constantly and courageously to death then he that leaveth them flying away upon any imminent danger whatsoever whatever his affection be unto the cause And if they all had fled away what might have become of the poor Church of God in this Kingdom it might been that ere now Impius haec tam culta novalia miles haberet Barbarus has segetes Praised be God that it pleased him in his mercy to uphold those men in these dangers that they might be a means of upholding the Members of his Church here Yea who knoweth if in such corrupt times many things were not rather to have been tolerated which then could not be amended then their Stations to have been deserted so they had not been Actors in ill doing Neither was the watchfulnesse of those times so great but that many good men might enjoy and enjoyed in effect the Ordinances of Christ And howbeit it had been so yet was it not necessary therefore to make a Schisme in quiting the Communion of all other Churches abroad Many Divines hold also That the Minister of Christ ought not to fly away for his personall persecution but for that onely of his flock Sect. 5. pag. 3. This being c. In this and the next Section ye seem to come to the question in controversie viz. Unto Ecclesiasticall Government but it containeth nothing probative of your opinion but onely narrative of your enquiry and holy proceedings therein which ye willingly desire to perswade that it has been the most holy that could be found by flesh and blood in any juncture of time that may fall out as wanting no helps that could
to the Lords Table I answer That the true Reformed Churches in Scotland France the Netherlands c. receive no man to the Lords Table whom they judge to be prophane or scandalous none but such as give an accompt of their Faith and testifie it by externall Confession and Profession in Doctrine and Sanctification If any Preacher or the Consistory of Ruling Elders do other wayes it is not by rule or their ordinary practise but through their negligence which when it is known is condemned by all We wish that none come to the Communion of Christs Body amongst us but such as have and feel some measure of Christ in themselves But who hath this measure of Christ It is hard for any mortall man to know it but he onely that hath it It is likewise hard to know what measure of Grace is requisite to make up a member of Christ or of his Church Some of the Casuists esteem that it sufficeth a Roman Catholike explicite as they call it expresly cleerly and plainlie to beleeve this onely Article I beleeve what the Church beleeveth Others esteem it not enough and therefore adde this Article I beleeve also That the Church cannot erre Others think this yet not enough for they wish Christians to beleeve this one more viz. I beleeve there is a God Some adde one more viz. That they must beleeve Gods Providence c. We beleeve that men are bound to beleeve all Divine Truths revealed in Scripture as necessary to Salvation and to beleeve them by a justifying Faith But what be these that be absolutely necessary to Salvation What are these Fundamentalia Essentialia and Superstructories How may they be distinguished one from another What is maximum quod sic and minimum quod non Or minimum quod sic maximum quod non Or your least of Christ whereupon a man may be admitted to be a Member of Christ we cannot define it We leave the Decision to more subtle Spirits and to our Brethren who use those termes and who upon this minimum quod sic or least bit of Christ do found the Reception of Christs Members into the Church We esteem their Disputes too subtle in the practise of Christianitie in judging others And wish with the Apostle rather every man to examine and try himself For this directive Principle we esteem surer then that of our Brethren We esteem that such a Confession of Faith and desire of Communion as ordinarily is professed by them who are admitted in Protestant Churches may suffice Here in the second Instance of set Forme of Prayers our Brethren note with a Parenthesis that they condemn not others who approve set Formes of Prayers prescribed and the Liturgis But whether these of New-England and others of their Profession will not condemn them in this we know not I wish that this were not added rather in a compliance with the present time then otherwise Item They tell us That the framing of Prayers and Sermons out of their own Gifts are the Fruits of Christs Ascension But why not also of his death and Resurrection Since he did merit this by his death In their third Instance about Government and Ecclesiasticall Discipline we care not what they say The practise of the Orthodox Churches is this They have divers Ecclesiasticall Senats or Courts wherein some are coordinate and others subordinated one to another The loweest is their Consistory or Session of the Pastours and the Ruling Elders in one Parish Church Then they have their Classes which some call Colloques others Presbyteries made of all the Preachers of all the Parish Churches belonging to such Colloques every one of them accompanied with one Elder of his Church 3. Their Provinciall Synods made up of all the Ministers of the Province accompanied every one of them with one or two ruling Elders 4. The Nationall Synod compounded of a certain number of Ministers and Ruling Elders according to the exigence of time place and other occasions and circumstances Delegate from all the Provinces or Provinciall Synods In the Consistory or Senate of the Parish Church they judge onely of things that be proper unto it and of lesse importance that have no great difficultie In the Colloque of that which is common to all the Churches of that Colloque and of businesse of greater importance that cannot be judged or well determined in a Parish Church In a Provinciall Synod of that which is common to all the Churches of the Province other things of great importance and all cases that cannot so soundly or so surely be determined in the former Assemblies In a Nationall of that which is common to all the Churches of the whole Kingdom and others that cannot be determined in the precedent Assemblies as of matters of Appeal c. Item From the first if any of the Parties finde themselves grieved by its judgement they may appeal to the second as from the second to the third and from the third to the fourth And all these Judgements and Proceedings are without money charges pecuniarie mulcts or fines And as their ayms are spirituall so be their punishments that they inflict upon their Delinquents Their punishments are censures Suspension from the Lords Table and their greater Excommunication which ordinarily are never inflicted upon whole Churches as our Brethren unjustly would challenge us but on particular Persons If they had read the Discipline of the Scots French Netherlands and other Reformed Churches they needed not here have troubled themselves and us with so many mistakes Or if they have read them they deal not fairly with us In some Churches particular or Parochiall Senates or Consistories have power to suspend from their Communion those that be Members thereof yea also to Excommunicate them from the which sentence neverthelesse they may appeal unto the Superiour Senate or Judicatorie and that for some particular reasons But this question God willing we shall hereafter more fully discusse Onely I note in passing that our Brethren First are here too sparing of Titles to some and too liberall to others They name Cartwright onely Cartwright but Baynes holy Baynes in the same line as if they would Canonize the one making him Saint Baynes which we condemn in the Pope and esteem the other prophane or of the vulgar and dregs of Divines which as it is said with reverence and respect of the one so it cannot be said without disparagement of the other As for the distinction of Ecclesiae in Primas Ortas it requireth a particular Question apart They say 1. Every Church hath a full and entire power compleat within it self till it should be challenged to erre grosly Pag. 14. § 15. Either by a compleat Power ye understand a Power absosolutely compleat or in its own kinde or sort If ye understand the first it must be Independent for if it depend upon a Superiour to rectifie it whereunto it must give an account of its judgement and submit it self in