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A68098 A pleasant dialogue, betweene a souldior of Barwicke, and an English chaplaine Wherein are largely handled & laide open, such reasons as are brought in for maintenaunce of popishe traditions in our Eng. church. Also is collected, as in a short table, 120. particular corruptions yet remaining in our saide church, with sundrie other matters, necessary to be knowen of all persons. Togither with a letter of the same author, placed before this booke, in vvay of a preface. Gilby, Anthony, ca. 1510-1585. 1581 (1581) STC 11888; ESTC S109674 76,666 200

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priesthoode in the court and the countrey haue we not iust cause to abhorre thē as filthinesse To defie them as pollutions To detest them as Idolatrous For doth not Augustin writing of like matters say thus I doe charge you before God and his Angels that you go neither to those diuelish feastes which are in the church and at the Fountaines or in the groues if any thing be sent vnto you frō thence abhor it detest it as though you did see therin the Diuell himselfe and refuse it so wholly that you suffer nothing of that accursed feast to be broughte into your house For the Apostle sayeth that yo cannot drinke the cuppe of the Lorde and the cuppe of the Diuels Nowe these Popish garmentes are patches left of an idolatrous feast worse in this poynte than the fleshe of the olde feastes or the Fountayns or the Trees because the formes and names of these thinges were not chaunged Wherefore if we may not bring them into our houses our Ministers maye not weare them in the administration of Christes sacramentes Bern. Why Miles you are too straight Christe and his Apostles did come into the churches both of the Iewes and of the Idolaters Therefore S. Augustine will permit more than you say Mil. I woulde wish them to come to the churches as Christ did to whip out y e wicked or as Paul did to preach against their idolatries Bern. But it seemeth by your former cōmunication of the full abolishing of thinges abused to the Idols that you woulde also haue the churches destroyed Mil. In the dayes of King Henry the the eight the hammer of the papistes they beganne this thing well in my iudgement For they defaced and destroyed at that time all the Churches that were principally appointed for Idolles as Walsingham and such Chappelles and Abbey churches as were not buylded for the administration of Christes Sacramentes but for superstition and Idolatrie Yet suffered they to stande still such as were ioyning vppon the same walles as in other places also such parishe Churches as were appointed for the assembling of the people for prayer and the Sacramentes In the which though all was corrupted yet because of the necessitie that such places must be had Nowe when true prayer is or should be restored and the Sacraments reformed the true Christiās may enter into these Churches that were founded for Christian people as into their owne goodes holden from them by theeues and robbers euen as after the same sorte wee do plucke with violence vnto our vsage the bookes of the scriptures which the papistes did hide from vs. And thus do we enter into our own possession and put out the theeues marke that had stollen these things frō vs. And that is the cause that we may leaue no marke nor monument of superstitiō or idolatrie in vestures or gestures amongest vs whereby those vsurpers might renewe their clayme in anie wile Thus did Moses Ezechiah Iosiah and others that are commēded in the scriptures For the verie names and therefore all the garishe shewes of the Idolles haue alwayes bin abhominable to the seruauntes of God as Dauid in the person of the faithfull confesseth And the Prophete Zephanaiah pronounceth y t God will cut away from his people the verie names of Chemarims and the Idolatrous priests and the remnaūtes of Baal So that we haue playne wordes for the destroying of all the remnaunts especiallie the Idolatrous garmentes For of them speaketh y e same Prophete by name also afterward like as Isaiah named the Ephod which was the priests garment and Moses commaundeth to ouerthrowe the Altars Isaiah biddeth beate thē in peeces like chalke stones And God himselfe by many of his seruauntes teacheth to roote out Idolatrous monumentes Bern. Nay but these are nowe no Idolatrous garments For the Idols are alreadie taken away destroyed these garmentes are nowe commaunded to be the liueries of the English Priestes and to be their ornamentes to decore the church seruice and the sacramentes Mil. And I pray you what was Baals Altare What were Baals Garmentes What were Baals Priestes after that Idol Baal was destroyed Ceased they then to bee idolatrous Garmentes They were at the leaste the remnauntes of Baal whereof Zephanaiah speaketh What is the Popish Altare the Pixe and Superaltar and such other monumentes of the Masse I pray you nowe when the Masse is put downe but idolatrous monumentes or idolatrous remnantes at the least What are the Massing gestures massing vestures but open shewes of Idolatrie And shal these be y e ornaments of those christian ministers y t haue abolished the Masse all Idols Eliiah the Prophet caused y e people in the kinges presence to kil all y e priests of Baal And thinke you that that King either woulde or coulde cause Eliiah straight wayes to vse either the Gestures or Vestures of those Idolatrous Priestes That good Priest Iehoiada caused the people also to destroye the Altare of Baal and slewe Mattan the cheefe priest of that Idoll vppon his owne Altare and who durst cōmaunde Iehoida to weare that priestes geare for an ornament Now by what right then may any of our faithful Ministers be commaunded to weare any liueries or tokens of that Antichriste whom they labour to abolishe or of those Idolles which worthelie are destroyed vnlesse it be for the same cause for the which Iehu giueth so great a charge to bring forth y e garmēts and so to trie who will weare these poluted garmentes and then to destroye them that will thus dissemble in theyr popish attire ornamentes Bern. Nay God forbid thou art to cruell thy hande hath bin to ofte in bloud And doest thou not see that these garmentes doo make the Ministers to bee reuerenced and honoured Mil. O Bernard thou lackest moe eyes than one that talkest on this fonde fashion I would be no more merciful nor cruell thā God him selfe is who if he will haue anie sinne terriblie punished by death it is Idolatrie For there is none that hee more hateth or for the which he hath giuen greater charge to roote out all remnauntes And this is most playne to them that haue eyes to see it that there can come no more reuerence nor honour to anie of Christes Ministers and Sacramentes by these popish vestimentes than to Eliiah or Iehoiada by the garmentes of Baals priestes All the Papall ornamentes are none other thinges else but the Ensignes of his proude tyrannie And double wicked are they in this pointe Firste that without Gods warraunte they will weare these garmentes Secondlie that herein they seeke their owne honoures wherein they woulde shewe their holines and shewe themselues most pompous where thei should appeare most humble and abiect Thus without Gods worde if our Englishe gospellers will needes followe the popishe pompous Priestes whiche were but Apes to Aaron and to other garishe Priestes of the Idolatrers for to winne thē honour they shalbe Simiarum Simiae
that wee maye not alwayes vse our libertie to the extremitie but muste doe some thinges for feare to offende other mens consciences which seemeth good policie Mil. It is true the holy Apostle Paule sayth in this maner Whatsoeuer is set before you eate asking no question for conscience sake But if any man say vnto you this is offered to idols eate it not because of him that shewed it and for the consciēce sake the conscience I say not thine but of the other These words make cleane against you for first he telleth not as you aleadge what we must doe but what we must leaue vndone for other mens conscience For he teacheth that we may not vse these Idolothites that is thinges belonging to the Idols to offend any mans conscience but rather abstaine from such libertie and neither eate flesh nor do any thing that may offend our brother Now marke this matter that we haue in hand These popish geare were Idolothites thinges belonging to Idols in the wearing whereof many good mens consciences are offended and they openly tell you that they were thinges wherein the Idols were serued and that they are greeued to see you weare such liueries of Antichriste so they are offended in charitie and can not vse you as Brethren as they were wonte to doe Again the papistes and the weaker sort that haue not bin fullie taught doe still thinke and say and teache others that these are the things that belonged to their Masse and to other popish idolatrie and therefore al their poperie was not euill seeing Christes Ministers and Sacraments cannot be without them Thus their weake consciences are offended in fayth and thinke their olde idolatrie good and therefore cannot repent of it Wherefore for the consciences of others if there were no cause else you should abstain frō this libertie that you chalendge to your selues in these idolatrous garments like as Paule affirmeth that he woulde neuer eate flesh rather than he should be thoughte willingly and wittingly being once warned to eate any meate dedicate to Idols Bern. But hereby thou doest to much restraine our christian liberty seeing our conscience is free Mil. Although I might answere thee w t the saying of Ambrose It is lawful for thee with safe cōsciēce thou mayst haue a wife yet if she play y e harlot she is to be reiected and cast away from thee Euen so the meate saith he if it be offered to an Idoll must be spit out This sentence of Ambrose agreeth with the decree of the Apostles commaunding to abstain from idolothites But Paul declareth that in cōmon vsage where no mā is offended we haue a libertie to vse things that are offered vnto vs by the course and necessitie of this life as the creatures of GOD without doubtfulnesse Therefore I do graunt that the Surplesse or such like may be vsed in cōmō businesses as to make it a Porters weede or to lappe some course thing therein as did Epiphanius with the vayle at Anablata or to giue to some poore man or woman that wante clouthes for their children But to vse it in the Sacramentes in Gods businesse is to make all the worlde to thinke that wee which would seeme reformers of Religion doo but trifle in Gods matters and that wee neyther doo abhorre Antichriste nor his hypocrisie Therefore as Iehu did well in turning the Idolatrous Temples into iakes and in polluting the garmentes with the bloud of the Priestes So should we procede in true reformations and all the faithfull Ministers of God should be Trumpets to stirre vs forwarde not clogges to drawe vs backwarde Bern. What you are to whote and to hastie you thinke that Rome may be builded vpon one day There bee many yet infirme and weake in Englande with whome the Gouernors must beare for a season vntill they bee stronger and that is very good police seeing they cannot reforme all thinges at once And because such thinges haue bin creeping in by little and little haue nowe bin long vsed they cannot be taken awaye but by a long continuaunce Mil. Nowe I doe aske thee in Gods name if thou doe thinke that they go about to builde Rome againe or to destroye it A thing is muche sooner destroyed then builded or canste thou tell mee this howe long they will bee weake or when all will bee strong It is almost fortie yeares since the Pope and poperie hath bin so long written and spoken against and about thirty yeres that his name as a thing most odious was commaunded by law of parliament to bee razed out of all Bookes and places in Englande and the Testament of Iesus Christ hath bin so long restored and published a-amongst vs. Now if men be not yet confirmed in the knowledge of Christe agaynste that Romane Antichrist the Pope and his blasphemous Priesthoode when will they be confirmed when they are fiftie or threescore yeares old peraduenture and haue bin taught so many yeares But you know that the most part die before fortie and who shal aunswere for them Either howe knowest thou that Gods word shall continue in Englande tenne or twentie yeares longer vntill men be no more weake Either wil you tarry till men learne it in another worlde Either is God so bounde to England that he will not forsake Englande as hee hath done his owne people and many other Nations for the greatnesse of their sins Nay thou murthering Englande that hast slaine so many of the seruauntes of God whiche called for the fruites of the Lordes Vineyarde and haste yet shewed no true fruites of repentaunce but sworne and forsworne thy selfe in sundrie Parliamentes and delightest stil in thy dregges and hatest them to this day that faithfully doe their office thou ●ust heare feele this terrible iudgement that the Lorde will let out his Vineyarde to others that will deliuer him the fruites in due season and that also which he spake to a people of greater holinesse than thou art The Kingdome of God shall bee taken away from you and giuen to a nation that shall bring forth the fruites thereof And O ye time takers time waiters which can finde no time to doe well alleadging the weakenesse of others beware that it be not your own weakenesse which wold fayne please both God and the worlde and therefore swim betwixt two waters Is it not yet time to build and purge Gods house when you haue alreadie builded ceeled and trimmed your own houses Beholde you may see in very short time where zeale and care of religiō is without halting al things are easily reformed after the word of God reuerently receaued Beware therefore that it be not of your own weakenesse that haue not yet learned rightly to hate those vayne traditions and superstitious shewes of the popish priesthoode but are content to be in such flauery your selues and so woulde haue all others rather then you will suffer any thing for the furtheraunce of the