Selected quad for the lemma: honour_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
honour_n	image_n	represent_v	worship_v	1,652	5	9.3382	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A33205	An answer to the representer's reflections upon the state and view of the controversy with a reply to the vindicator's full answer, shewing, that the vindicator has utterly ruined the new design of expounding and representing popery.	Clagett, William, 1646-1688.; Clagett, Nicholas, 1654-1727.	1688 (1688)	Wing C4376; ESTC R11070	85,324	142

at last with all his might to make this same Popery if so we must call it to be not the Popery of the Church but a Popery rather in the Church and because 't is of so large a Spread and is manifestly upheld by the Authority of the Great Ones therefore some good Words were now to be given it to save the Reputation of the Church which else will be in great danger of the Similitude of a City that permits to Rob and Kill without contradiction or rather of a City that rewards Robbers and punishes Honest men Wherefore says the Vindicator Every thing Pag. 7. I hope that any one fancies to be ill is not therefore to be reproved And is it come to this at last We had been in good hands I see if we had come into the Church of Rome upon the Representers Terms For was it not the Representer that said He would as soon be a TVRK as the Answerers Papist Now the Answerers Papist was the Old Papist And therefore it was notably and boldly said That he would as soon be a Turk as Our Papist For one would at least conclude from thence that the Expounding and Representing Party would have stood stoutly by us if we had come in rejecting all that Popery as we used to call it which the Representer had so bravely rejected But if we had taken the Bait had we not been finely angled up For what says our Representer's other self the Vindicator Why truly Every thing he hopes that any one Fancies to be ill is not therefore to be reproved It seems then that the Representer did but fancy those things to be ill which not he in his misrepresenting side but the Answerer charged upon them as Popery Or shall we say that these Men understand one another and that he did not fansie them to be ill but for the present thought good to say however that they were monstrous ill things and that he would as soon be a Turk as the Answerers Papist But I rather think they did not lay their Heads together upon this Business but that in the desperate estate to which the Vindicator's Cause was reduced by the clear Testimonies of such a Popery amongst them as the Representer rejects with detestation he found himself obliged for the credit of his Church and perhaps for his own safety to remit of his Rigour or rather to take off his Disguise a little without asking the Representer's leave and so he hopes that every thing that any one fansies to be ill is not therefore to be reproved But the Representer has the less reason to be angry with our Vindicator because this Gentleman has made as bold with himself as with his Friend The Vindicator too once fansied that it was an ill thing to Worship the Image of our Saviour or the Holy Cross with Divine Worship upon any account whatsoever But Cardinal Capisucchi came in the way and so every thing that the Vindicator himself fansied to be ill is not therefore to be reproved Nay he was not content to let the Old Popery get up again but he has been pleased to sink the New one as much For tho Cardinal Capisucchi says so and so yet seeing others of the same Communion reject this and are NOT CENSVRED BY THE CHVRCH it plainly follows that his is not the necessary Doctrine of the Church Pag. 7. And what he says in this case is applicable to all others Alas for New Popery for it declines apace we had thought it had been shewn us for the True Ancient Standing Sence of the Church And now the most that can be said for it is that it is not censured by the Church It seems then that these Expounders and Representers are but a Tolerated Party One step more backwards makes them not to be so much as Tolerated and the next news we shall hear is that they are Intolerable But by the way what Church does the Vindicator mean by saying that he and his are not censured by the Church I fansie he means the Invisible Church which cannot now be seen because no Council is sitting The Fathers that sate at Trent do not start out of their Graves to declare these Gentlemen Heretically inclined and the Books of the Council do not rise up and fly in their Faces For if we mind what the Authority of the now Living and Visible Church declares in this case we see that they who reject this Old Popery as we call it are censured by the Church and to mention Imbert no more the instance of Aegidius Magistralis Canon of Sevil in Spain is a Conviction to the Vindicator of something that I will not name For he was forced to abjure these two Propositions as Heretical 1. That the Images of Saints are not to be adored with the same Adoration with which the Prototypes are adored 2. That the Cross is to be worshipped only with an Inferiour Adoration This very Instance being produced by the Defender out of Capisucchi Pref. P. XIV XV. who left it for a Caution and a Conviction to such Men as in good earnest maintain our Vindicators Doctrine for the Vindicator to mention Capisucchi's Doctrine and to say in the same breath that they who reject it are not censured by the Church is of a piece with his Sincerity every where else Well but let that pass and let us consider what will come of this if it be true that they are not censured by the Church Really this is but a small encouragement to take Popery upon the Representer's Terms For that which is not now censured by the Church may in good time be censured by the Church Perhaps you will say there is no reason to fear it But in my mind there is for as I said before the Credit of this New Popery has sunk extremely in a Month for in truth the Vindicator has degraded it from being Popery as we observed some time since Now if it be not so much as Popery it may in a little time grow to be Heresie and then the Censures of the Church will follow as fast as can be In the mean time it is not Popery And so farewel to the Representer's Undertakings which are overthrown beyond all recovery unless he faces about and recovers his Credit by beating the Vindicator out of the Field with his own Hand The Representer at first gave us a two-fold Character of Popery One was of That Popery which the Papists own and profess as appears in the Title Page of his First Part. In his very first Article of Praying to Images the Popery which the Papists own and profess amounts to this That properly they do not so much as Honour Images but only Christ and his Saints This is the Popery of the Representing side What now says the Vindicator He very honestly acknowledges that there is a private Sentiment in the Church against this that will have the Image of Christ worshipped with

Approved Councils or whether she has not The two Points are the Doctrine of the Invocation of Saints and the Doctrine of Worshipping Images If she has not done it then in the Church of Rome there can be no Doctrine concerning these two things which can be called a Doctrine of Faith. The Vindicator therefore will say I hope that she has delivered her Sense by her Voice And so I ask him in the Second place Whether by the Doctrine which the Church delivers he understands only so many Words put together and not rather the Sense of those Words which the Voice of the Church uses that is which her General and Approved Councils have put together to express their Meaning by This is a Question which the Vindicator must needs understand because I do in effect but borrow it of his Friends For the like Question has been often put to us by them and particularly by his good Friend the Representer and it may be by himself viz. Whether by the Scriptures we understand the Words or the Sense So say I by the Doctrines of Faith which the Vindicator says are delivered by the Voice of the Church in her General Councils Does he mean the Sense or the Words only of her Councils I will for once answer for him That he means the Sense which is contained under the Words I ask him therefore the Third time Whether the Sense of those Words which his General Councils have put together Pag. 6. be not as he says what truly we ought to mean by Popery If I may be bold to answer for him once more he must needs grant it For if the Churches Doctrine of Faith be the same with the Sense of her General Councils and if that which we ought to call Popery and to mean by Popery be the Churches Doctrine of Faith it will go very hard if Popery be not the Sense of her General Councils And now the Odious Distinction clears up apace in going this way to work For if that part of Popery which is made by Doctrines of Faith be neither more nor less than the Sense of General Councils concerning such Doctrines as we Protestants disclaim it follows presently that the Sense of those Councils is what we ought to call Popery And therefore 1. I humbly conceive that if there be two Parties in the Church of Rome that are not agreed what the Sense of her General Councils is it follows out of hand that so far they are not agreed about Popery and that for this very good Reason Because the Sense of her General Councils and the Faith part of Popery according to him is all one and indeed but two Expressions of the same thing 2. It follows also That in what Sense soever either of those Parties takes the Words of the Churches Councils that Sense is and must necessarily be that Parties Popery because the Sense of her Councils being Popery that which is to one Party the Sense of her Councils must likewise be Popery to that Party 3. If therefore one of those Parties takes the Words of her Councils in one Sense and another takes the same Words in a contradictory Sense then because the Sense in which the former takes those Words is the Popery of or to that Party and the Sense of the latter is its Popery it unavoidably follows that there are two pretended Poperies betwixt those two Parties which are inconsistent with one another 4. If the Sense of one of these Parties was that which prevailed without Controul ever since the Council of Trent till very lately and the Sense of the other Party is therefore but of yesterday then of these two Poperies the former must needs be the Old Popery and the latter the New Popery 5. So much Reason as we have to believe the Old Popery to be the true Sense of the Churches Councils rather than the New one so much reason also we have to believe that the Old Popery is the True Popery and the New to be but an Imposture or a Mistake of those of the Roman Church that have of late brought it up 6. And lastly If Protestants did not make those different Senses for them but each Party in that Church made them for themselves then this Distinction of an Old and a New Popery is no Misrepresentation Falsification or Calumny of Protestants but a Distinction grounded upon the Real Disagreement of Papists about Popery Quod erat demonstrandum But I think that Men were never put to it as we are to make solemn proof of things that are so evident that they need not to be proved at all The Council of Trent determines That we are to fly to the Prayers the Help and the Assistance of the Saints If we would know the Councils Sense in this Matter the Old ones will tell us that the meaning is we should have recourse to them for other Aids besides their Prayers And as one would verily take this for the meaning from the Construction of the Words themselves so the Terms of Invoking the Saints which were then used in their Offices and still are so do manifestly favour that Interpretation But our New Expositors come and tell us that they require no other Aid and Assistance from the Saints than their Prayers and the Vindicator intimates that if they did we should have something to say against the Lawfulness of what they practise If Popery therefore be not so much the Words of the Council in which I acknowledge they all agree as the Sense of the Council in which they do not agree how is it possible but that here are two Poperies in this matter advanced amongst themselves one against the other Again The Council of Trent affirms That due Honour and Veneration is to be given to Images And therefore what one Party in that Church takes to be that due Honour is Popery to them because 't is the Sense of the Church to that Party And what another believes to be so is their Popery And here I am sure if we find a Harmony 't is made up all of Discords Indeed one would have thought that the Council by Due Honour and Veneration had meant that Worship which was at that time given to Images in the Roman Church which their Offices required and for which their most celebrated Writers had contended And this way of coming to the Sense of the Council must lead a Man to the Popery of giving the same Honour to the Image that is due to the Prototype or at least an Inferior Honor by which the Image might be said to be truly and properly worshipped For the former Sense Cardinal Capisucchi does at this day earnestly contend and very fairly argues it against all Opposers from the Words of the Council But the Bishop of Meaux and the Representer and the Vindicator are as cross to that Sense as downright Contradiction can make them They say See Second Def. p. 31 32 c. That in presence of

is every bodies else that I can speak to and which is worst of all I must not judge between these different Parties which of them speaks the Churches Sence because I am that way Infallibly thrown upon my own Sentiments which are as private as can be In this State there being no Council sitting I have no living Judge upon Earth to help me and I am sure I must not be a living Judge for my self so that I have no Oracle to go to but a few Dead Letters which cannot speak and I have no reason to expect whilst I am doubting whether the Words mean Capisucchi's or De Meaux's Sence that the Letters should disappear and other Letters rise in the room of them and make Words plain enough to end the Dispute And therefore I think we must do as the Vindicator gives leave and suspend our Judgment at least till the sitting of the next General and Approved Council that shall be called to interpret the last Tho I do not see how that could end the Controversie because the Words of that Council too must be interpreted by private Sence and so to the Worlds end till Councils have found out a way to determine Controversies of Faith without any Words at all There is I confess one way left to come to a certainty of the Churches Sence if we had it and but one and that is for every Body to be Infallible for by the same reason that they would take us off from the Scriptures we have not any security by Councils unless we had an infallible Spirit to interpret and then I fancy there would be no need of Councils at all for an Infallible way of interpreting the Scriptures will excuse any Mans dependence upon Councils that has it Now after these Men have vilified the private use of the Scriptures and have in effect made nothing of them for this Child of the Church to come now at last in his distress and make as little of General Councils is a just Infatuation upon him Who does not see that to get off the two Poperies which are so notorious he will allow nothing to be Popery but the very express Words of their Councils which indeed have a Sence that this Man calls the Churches Sence but then you are to ask no body what that Sence is For whoever he is that you ask he gives you but his own Sence or his private Sentiment And at this rate I confess it will be impossible to find out two Poperies in the Church because Popery is nothing but the Churches Sence But then you will not be able to find so much as One Popery in the Church and that it may be the Vindicator never thought of For whilst every body gives his own Sence to the Words of the Council as they say every one of us does to the Words of the Scripture indeed no Man can be certain that the Churches Sence is not reached by any of the private Sentiments of Men but who has had the good luck to reach it the Lord knows for 't is a Happiness which no Man that has it can certainly say that he has And therefore by that Trick which serves him to keep two Poperies out of the Church he has unawares thrown out all Popery excepting that dead Popery that lies buried in the Words of General and approved Councils Thus speaking of that which we Term Old Popery and his Parties condemning it he says Pag. 6. So long as there is such a Dispute betwixt them whom the Church acknowledges to be her Children and she does not determine it any one may hold which side they please as an Opinion or suspend their Judgment but neither side is truly what you ought to mean by Popery So that 't is neither Popery to worship Images with the same Worship that is due to what they represent nor is it Popery to worship them with a Worship that is not the same nor is it Popery to worship them as it were not at all And therefore the Children of the Church may hold which side they please as an Opinion they may with Cardinal Capisucchi be of the opinion that M. de Meaux's Doctrine concerning due Honour and Veneration savours of Heresie and they may with M. de Meaux be of the Opinion that Capisucchi's Doctrine savours of Idolatry And they that are of the former Opinion may yet with the Cardinal approve the Bishops Exposition and they that are of the later Opinion may with the Bishop say That the Cardinal in his Treatise about Images had said nothing in the whole that contradicteth the Bishop In short we may take Due Honour and Veneration in this Sense or in that Sense or in any Sense wherein any of the Children of the Church understand it or if you please no Sense whatsoever For you may suspend your Judgment And if the Vindicator be in the right that what he has said in this case is applicable to all others Protestants without believing one Doctrine of Faith more than they do already may be said to have as much Doctrinal Popery as the Members of the Romish Church it self I would have the Vindicator think of these things and before he sends us again to the express Words of his General Councils to consider how his Friends have used the Scriptures and us for making them the Rule of our Faith. We do not pretend to find in express Words of their General Councils every thing which we call Old Popery but we find it in the Profession of the prevailing Part even of the present Roman Church and in its oppressing those that seem in good earnest to be of another mind And as we may without blame call that Popery or the Sense of their Church which themselves call so so we cannot be reproved for saying that their Popery seems to be the true and genuine Popery because it agrees vastly better with the express Words of their Councils than the Popery of our modern Expositors and Representers But yet for calling this Popery the Vindicator calls the Defender a Misrepresenter Pag. 6 7. a Misrepresenter and a Calumniator too a Misrepresenter a Falsifier and a Calumniator Thus he lays about him without Fear or Wit and hurts himself more than his Adversary For his bad Language does furnish me with a Proof that there are Two Poperies amongst them which the dullest Apprehension will feel and the finest shall not be able to distinguish away To take the Vindicator's Instance once more Here in England I make bold to say that worshipping Images and Crucifixes with the same Worship that is due to the Persons represented is Popery And for this by an Authentic Papist I am called a Misrepresenter a Falsifier and a Calumniator too Which are hard Words and I would not willingly deserve them I would therefore know what is the sincere Popery in this case and I am told That Images are not properly to be worshipped but the Persons represented