A DISPVTATION OF THE CHVRCH Wherein the old Religion is maintained V. M. C. F. E. Ierem. 6.16 Aske of the old paths which is the good way and walke in it and you shall find refreshing for your soules LAVDA BILE NOMEN DOMINI AT DOWAY By MARCK WYON at the golden Phaenix 1629. TO MY FRINDS IN ENGLAND DEARE FRINDS I haue vnderstood of your troubles and doe take comfort in your constancie Your cause is cleere your religion that which the sonne of God hath taught In former time no other was in England So much you know by the Histories and Chronicles of the country so you haue ben told by your parents who sawe the profession of it with their owne eies so your ancestors doe testifie by their wills and graues Your Churches there were built for the exercise of it as you can prooue by the generall forme of them by the crosses and pictures by the altars made for Masse Euer since the conuersion of the country from Paganisme by Sainct Augustine and his fellowes monkes it hath beene there till of late and S. Augustine brought it from Rome where it had beene common from the time of S. Peeter and S. Peeter learned it of our Sauiour Iesus Christ Those that are learned if they will looke into the Ecclesiasticall History which diuers and of late the worthy Cardinall Caesar Baronius haue compiled may see there looking vpwards to the Apostles time this Religion descending thorough all ages in sacred esteeme euer the preachers gods trumpets proclaiming it the generall councells making roome the martyrs testifying the truth of it with their blood the light of miracles accompanying it all the way and worlds of people waiting on The Societie of those that professe it is the Church and is diffused ouer the World and Catholique it is that Church which in your Creede you doe beleeue This is the spouse of the sonne of God the woman clad with the sunne manifest vnto all that willfully do not shutte their eies by her antiquitie cleere successioÌ„ vniuersality and the twelue-fold Apostolicall glorie doth crowne her heade or beginning Shee hath beene opposed by diuers Heresies but still gotte the victory bringing foorth Saincts to Iesus Christ in the labour of persecution You know the counsell of the Scripture Sonne comming to the seruice of God prepare thy soule to temptation and the affirmation of the Apostle is generall All those that will liue godly shal suffer persecutâ—on The state of the Church heere is militant and those are to be crowned that ouercome The way to heauen is full of crosses mockeries stripes and the sword helpe vs on This way those are gone of whom the world was not worthy afflicâ—ed needie in distresse This way our blessed Sauâ—our went who was heere contemned scourgel crucified It is the King of Heauens high way Our heade is gone before all blood and so entered into blisse the Apostles the Martyrs the Confessoâ—s old Simeon too and little Agnes are gone after him with their crosses and wee are bid if will liue eternally to take vp each of vs one and followe To take the spoile of your goods with ioy is to enbrace and kisse your crosse There is no deliberation when I must leaue gold or god no comparison betwixt a diamond in a gold ring and the deitie in eternitie O my deare frinds you haue each of you a Iewell within your selues richer then all the eie can see without fairer then the sunne it self and farre aboue all the disposition of the stars The vsurers Idol gold waxeth pale if you compare it to the burning sparkles of the chrysolite In your Iewell you may see heauen and earth in the compasse of the vnderstanding It hath engrauen in it the image of allmighty God and is for nature next an angell by grace companion with him as being to beare a part in the heauenly quire and there without astonishment to sing allelluia with those thousand thousand glorious queristers if the fault be not yours The Soule hauing free will had once lost it self you may by the meanes taken to recouer it know the worth The sonne of God came from heauen downe to looke it and redeemed it with that which is better then the world his life Those infinite wrongs which he suffered from men of all sorts â—hose innumerable stripes which he receaued from the soldiers whose crueltie made him all a wound the bitter passion of the crosse which no words are able to expresse was all for our redemption for the soule If you loose it now againe you wrong his loue you depriue him of his right you moue his father whose angry lookes are burning fire to reueng It is horrible to fall into the hands of the liuing God The pillars of heauen do tremble and dreade at his beck He hath measured the water with his fiste and pondered the heauens with a spanne He looketh on the earth and maketh it to treÌ„ble toucheth the mountaines and they smoke If you keepe it well he will make it a heauen wherein he with the father and the holy Ghost will dwell foreuer And your bodies he wil invest with ornaments of glory aÌ„d immortallity and place each of you in a throne with himself in the court of heauen where all are kings You shall dwell in the celestiall Ierusalem whose streete is all of pure gold and walls pretious stone where God is the Temple and the light These things God hath promised vnto those who serue him wherefore aboue all haue a care of your religion Your soule is your Iewel and Religion is the Iewel of your sowle Keepe these well and you shaâ—l be happie though persecution leaue you nothing els Each of you may haue a common wealth a kingdome within your selues if you please No State more happie no gouerment more sweete then that is where loue commaundeth and vertues do obay Let Charitie be Queene in your soule and the Vertues will all bâ— there Let men see the streingth of your faitâ— in your constancie and the sanctitie of it in tâ—e candor of your conuersation Giue all men theâ—r due to whom tribute tribute to whom Feare Feâ—re to whom honour honour In your actiâ—ns be circumspect as it becommeth Christians who beleeue the eies of God and Angels are oâ— them still and that each action is inrowled exactly to be reade and censured in the day of doome Loâ—ke oft on the liues of Saincts and by their example learne how you are to carrie your selues in yoâ—r difficulties you will do things with more ease wheÌ„ you see them doÌ„ne before you those were menâ—s wee are Be not afraid of persecution The protâ—ction of allmighty God is more then a wall of brâ—sse they who trust in him are safe mountaines in ciâ—cuite of the holy cittie and our Lord round about his people Nothing caÌ„ rob vs of our soules vnles wee will and if that be saued wee shall haue all that God hath for wee shal haue him Our
Here I replie that wee haue Scripture too and that you cannot bringe sufficient euidence that the Scripture is against vs and with you For tryall of this I am contented according to your desire to abstract from all other meanes what soeuer from the testimonies of learned Fathers from the definitions of generall Councells from consent of Nations and other argumeÌ„ts of that kinde and to see whether the Scripture alone will approue or condeÌ„ne our Religion And because in deducing a consequence out of obscure premises a mans wit may be deceaued I wil abstract from this allso that is from drawing consequences out of Scripture looking onely to that which is and necessarily must be true and which is formallie auouched or denied in Gods word and I argue thus The Scripture doth no where formallie denie any point of our faith nor formallie affirme any point which our Church doth denie therefore the Scripture doth not formallie condemne vs. I say formallie for your consequences are not Scripture and therefore I abstract as I said from them as impertinent to the termes and state of this Question wherein now wee are 27. To this argumeÌ„t you and your fellowes make answeare by allegation of Scripture against vs The chiefest I will brieflie runne ouer here the rest shall be answered in other places as it comes Wee honour Images Ex. 20.4 Honoraria adoratione non vera latria Conc. gen Nic. 2. act 7. in deâ—i in ep ad Impp. and this you say is opposite to that of Exodus thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen thing nor the likenes c. Our doctrine is that Images are indeed to be honoured yet not with the soueraigne honour due to God but with another inferior This is declared by the Church in the second Nicene Councell Now to the place of Scripture I answeare that it makes not against vs because respectiue or relatiue honour giuen to pictures in regard of the reference they haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the Samplers is not there spokeÌ„ of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 non adorabis ea neque latria coles ea but soueraigne honour onely aÌ„d this wee do not giue to pictures The truth of this answeare is cleere by the circumstaÌ„ces of the text wherein allmightie God reserues his Soueraignetie and the honour due to God vnto him selfe as being the onely God and none God but he To helpe out your argument here you adde a word of your owne to the text and reade thou shalt make to thee no grauen image whereas the Hebrew word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not signifie an image but sculptile a grauen thing You might as well haue said sculpere were latine for to paint The Greeke text hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The 70. Interpreters whence the Latine word IdoluÌ„ in English an Idol aÌ„d the litterall sense is thou shalt not make to thy selfe an idol that is a feined God nor adore him Now Catholiques neither make to them selues nor adore Idols nor yeeld Soueraigne honour or acknowledgment of Deitie to any but to God wherefore this place is not against vs. And if you will needs haue the Scripture to contradict vs in this point since contradiction must be affirmatioÌ„ and negation of the same and since the words worship and honour haue diuers senses for men do worship allso others that are not Gods and do honour their prince their Parents c let vs heare out of the Scripture the opposite of that which wee say ours is this it is lawfull to honour Images with a relatiue honour which is not the soueraigne honour due to God but an other infinitely lesse the contradictory wherevnto is this it is not lawfull to giue such an honour vnto Images Showe this proposition in the Scripture and you condemne vs otherwise it is impertineÌ„t and because I knowe it is not there at all I goe to the next wherein you labour to knocke our Church on the heade by proouing the Pope to be Antichrist 28. The text cited is this 2. Thesâ— 2â— v. 3.4 Vnlesse there come a reuolt first and the man of sinne the sonne of perdition be reuealed which is an aduersary and is exalted aboue all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he sitteth in the teÌ„ple of God VVitcâ— sewing him him selfe as if he were God This text should not haue bene vrged together with the former if you had looked to gaine any thinge with it for by the former you would haue prooued that the Pope made himselfe and taught the Church to be inferiour to many Gods And Antichrist as you finde here will pretend to be aboue all that is called God or that is worshipped how then can you imagine the Pope to be Antichrist againe the Pope doth worship and pray to Saincts and Angells he doth acknowledge himselfe to be minister and seruant to Iesus Christ he doth acknowledge the blessed Trinitie to haue made and to conserue him and to be infinitely greater then he the Pope is in power and Maiestie and this he doth teach vnto the Church Dan. 7. 11. whereas Antichrist will extoll himselfe aboue all that is worshipped and will speake greate things against the God of Gods and will laboure to be greater in the estimatioÌ„ of men then all that is called God and thus to sit in Gods Temple Moreouer S. Peeter did sit as Vicar and Pastor in the Church Matth. 16.18 Io. 21.18 he being by our Sauiour created the foundation and the Pastor of it and his residence was in Rome allso yet none hath bene hetherto so impudeÌ„t as to say that he was Antichrist and he were sensles that would auouch it since Antichrist is not a minister of Christ and his seruant but an aduersary who doth magnifie himselfe aboue him and aboue all that is adored Wherefore it is a sensles thing to say that the successors of S. Peeter are Antichrist for that reason that is because they sit as Pastors in the Church and reside in Rome And thus much for the matter of this instance As for the forme of it you must obserue better that the text of Scripture doth not affirme that which wee denie or denie that which wee affirme Wee say the Pope is the Pastor of the Church and Vicare of Christ and that he is not Antichrist The Scripture doth not say the Pope is not Pastor of the Church that he is not the Vicar of Christ that he is Antichrist And therefore our Church hetherto is not formallie contradicted by the Scripture 29. 1. Cor. 10 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That which is in the Chalice is it which did issue out of the side c. Chrysost in hunc locum Thirdly to contradict the Church which doth beleeue the holy Eucharist to be the body and bloud of Christ and not bakers breade and bare wine though it be in the outward formes of them You bringe the place
Imperatores vero AD ORNANDVM decentissimè praesidebant Concil Chalced. Relat. ad Leonem Papam Insuper contra ipsum cui VINEAE custodia à Saluatore commissa est extendit Dioscorus insaniam id est contra tuam quoque Apostolicam Sanctitatem Ibid. Confidentes quia lucente apud vos Apostolico radio vsque ad Constantinopolitanorum EcclesiaÌ„ consuetè guberuand illum spargentes hunc sapiùs expanditis cò quòd absque inuidia consueueritis vestrorum bonorum participatione ditare domesticos Ibid Rogamus igitur tuis DECRETIS nostrum honora iudicium sicut nos CAPITI in bonis adâ—ecimus consonantiam sic Summitas tua FILâ—IS quod decet adimpleat Ibidem because Donatus Stephanus and Marinus were Presidents in the a Subscrip eight Councell as Legates of AdriaÌ„ the secoÌ„d Two Peeters one an Archdeacon the other an Abbot were Presidents in the b Subscrip seuenth in the name of Adrian the first Two Priests Peeter and George together with Iohn a Deacon were Presidents in the c Act. Conc. Zonar vit Coâ—nstaÌ„t Sixt for Agatho Eutichius in the name of Vigilius was President in the d Zonar in vita Iustiniani Vide Ep Eutichij ad Vigil Petimus praesidente nobis vestra ocatitudine c. fi collat 1 fift Paschasius and Iulianus in the e Conc. Chalc. in Relat. ad Leonem Fourth for Leo great Cyrillus for Celestine in the f Conc. Ephes Relat. ad Imp. Marcellin in Chron. Libertat in Breuiar c. 5. Niceph. l. 14. c. 34 third The Bishops who were at the g Ep. ad Damasum ap Theodoret. l. 5. c. 9. secoÌ„d Councell call Damasus their Heade aÌ„dit became Oecumenicall in regard is was by the Pope approued who before had called a generall Councell but the Bysshops could not all meete at Rome as he had appointed by reasoÌ„ of the Arian Heresie And therefore the Easterne Bisshops mette in one place vnder Nectarius the westerne in an other vnder Damasus who afterwards did approoue the Decrees of both parties and so came the councell to be one and Oecumenicall In the h Subscrip See Card. Peron Replique l. â— c. 35. se qq first Hosius Vitus ad Vincentius were Presidents in place of Syluester And by this induction it is cleere that in the Catholique Church the Popes right of Presidencie was not onely acknowledged but practized euer Neither can you alleage good Authoritie or any one approued Author who saith that euer yet any Priest Bishop or Patriarch was President in any Generall Councell in his owne name and not in the Popes which you should doe and prooue allso that the Church approued it as lawfull before you depriue the Pope of possession which he hath had many hundred yeeres by your confession and euer as I haue prooued and by Christs Institution too who made him in S. Peeter the FoundatioÌ„ and Pastor of the Church 17. As for the Emperours Conc. Chalc. in Relat. ad Leon. I answeare out of the Councell of Chalcedon that they were equiuocallie Presidents not for Iudgment and Definition but for peace and Ornament And so much Constantine the greate whom you preferre before those vnto whom he gaue place will confesse for himselfe and his Successors God saith he to the Nicene Fathers hath made you Priests Ap. Ruffin l 1. c. 2. and giuen you power to iudge of vs you may not be iudged by men wherefore looke for Gods iudgment onely amongst your selues and let your dissentions whateuer they be be reserued to Gods examine You are giuen vs as Gods and it is not conuenient that maÌ„ iudge Gods but he alone of whom it is written God stoode in the middest of Gods and in the middest God doth iudge For Approbation of Generall Councells my answeare and proofe is the same First the Roman Bisshoppe because Successor to sainct Peeter is the Foundation aÌ„d Pastor of the Church aÌ„d CouÌ„cells for him did our Sauiour pray that his faith should not faile he was charged to confirme his Brethren and this will be necessarie till the worlds end Generall Councells haue euer desired his Approbation his definition and sentence in the midst of the Bisshops or presented in his name to them or theirs by him approoued not els hath bene constantlie stood vnto by the Catholique Church at all tymes and no Decrees euer admitted which he reiected and refused to confirme Which Vniuersall Iudgment and Generall consent of the World together with the authoritie of the Scripture make his title so cleere that you shall neuer be able to dispossesse the present Pope of this honour or to winne future tymes to your opinion THE FOVRTH CHAPTER Of the Councells of Nice and Constance 12. BEfore I leaue this matter of the Pope aÌ„d Councells I must answere two other obiections that you make in the one you oppose the councell of Franckford to the secoÌ„d of Nice in the other the Laterane couÌ„cell to that of Constance hereby to prooue that the Church doth contradict her self and erre Touching the former two you pretend that the Councell of Franckford hath condemned the Nicene Your Proofe is taken out of the a Caroline Bookes The reason pretended is because the Nicene decred such honour to the pictures of Saincts as is due to God Of these Bookes 〈◊〉 what Beâ—â—lar doth write l. â— de Imag. â— 14. 15 I answere First that in the Councell of Franckford there is no such thing to be found Secondlie your Accusation is false for the honour due to God is not giuen to pictures in the Nicene Councell but another inferiour wherefore if at FraÌ„ckford diuine honour had ben denied to pictures yet the Councells would agree Thirdlie your proofe or witnes discredits his owne storie and ouer throwes himself for he tells vs that the Councell condemned at Franckford was held at Constantinople in Bithynia If at Constantinople how then in Bithynia Constantinople is in Thrace Nice indeede is in Bithynia See the ground quakes vnder the feete of your argument Fourthlie those Caroline bookes out of which you make this argument saie that the Councell condemned at Franckford was held without the Popes Authoritie See Baron an 794. In that of Nice the Popes Legates subscribed to euerie Acte a Allata est in medium quaestio de noua Graecorum Synodo quam de adorandis imaginibus Constantinopoli fecerunt in qua scriptum habebatur vt qui imaginibus Sanctorum ita vt deificae Trinitati seruitium aut adorationem non impenderent anathema iudicarentur Qui supra sanctissimi Patres nostri omnimodis orationem seruitutem eis impendere renuentes contempserunt atque consentieÌ„tes condemnarunt Liber Carolin in Praefat. b Definimuscum omni diligentia venerandas sanctas Imagines dedicandus in Templis sanctis Dei collocandus habendasqua Quo scilicet per hanc Imaginum pictarum inspectionem omnes qui contemplantur ad