Selected quad for the lemma: honour_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
honour_n	child_n	glory_n	parent_n	1,912	5	9.5403	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A33770	Theophilus and Philodoxus, or, Several conferences between two friends the one a true son of the Church of England, the other faln off to the Church of Rome, concerning 1. praier in an unknown tongue, 2. the half communion, 3. the worshipping of images, 4. the invocation of saints / by Gilbert Coles.	Coles, Gilbert, 1617-1676.	1674 (1674)	Wing C5085; ESTC R27900	233,018	224

horns hath little strength but could he have added to them this fifth Horn That the Word of God approveth the Invocation of the dead as of the living we must have fled before it But alas all the attemts to confirm this Doctrine of your Church out of Holy Writ have prov'd so unsuccessful that some of your own Doctors have had so much Ingenuity as to acknowledg That it is not expresly delivered in Holy Scripture So a Invocatio Sanctorum non expresse traditur in Script Eccius in his Enchiridion of Catholic Confession and therefore it must pass for an unwritten Tradition whereof Martin Peresius confesseth we have b De Trad. p. 3. consid 7. Ne vestigium ante divum Cyprianum no footsteps before Cyprian Phil. Peresius gives a rational account together with others why the Holy Apostles did not lay the foundation of this Doctrine It was say they c Causa erat humilitas mod Apostolorum nese Deos facerent out of their great humility and modesty least they should appear to establish in the Church their own Apotheosis make themselves as Gods by directing the People of God to put up their Supplications after their decease to them Theoph. Methinks That which prevail'd with the Apostles not to deliver this Doctrine of the Invocation of Saints should likewise have prevail'd with the Church never to have establish'd it and without doubt had it bin according to the will of God and profitable to the Church the Holy Apostles would never have concel'd it out of modesty and humility S t Paul declares expresly to the Church of Ephesus Acts 20. 19 20. That serving God with all humility of mind he had kept back nothing that was profitable unto them And doubtless it was presumtion and pride which introduc'd this Error tho under shew of voluntary humility for if the Apostles were afraid to recommend themselves as Gods unto the People by giving them directions to pray to them after their decease the Pope who undertakes to Canonize Saints and to encourage the People of God to pray to them in spight of the Apostles humility and fear takes the boldness upon him to make them as God Phil. You make so many Excursions that you come not to the Point How do you answer the four Particulars of Bellarmins Argument Theoph. I have already cut off the four Horns with one blow He saith That if we may not pray to the Saints departed as well as desire their Praiers when living it must be for one of those four causes fore-mentioned either they are not willing or are not able to pray for us or they cannot hear our Praiers or their Intercession would be injurious unto Christs Intercession but I say is enumeration is lame and imperfect for I have shew'd a fifth reason why not because the Word of God obligeth not to one as to the other It requires that we should desire the mutual assistance of one anothers Praiers living but not after our decease all civil commerce being intercepted by the will of God between the living and the dead Phil. Do you reckon our Invocation of the Saints departed a part of civil commerce I thought it had bin a Religious act and duty Theoph. I grant Praier to be such and therefore a part of Divine Worship to be given only to God But that Invocation of Holy Men living as you call it or as I term it That pious desire and request which one Christian makes unto another that he may enjoy the benefit of his Praiers from whence you draw an Argument for Invocation after their decease that doubtless is a civil Request wherewith Christians mutually call upon and oblige one another to remember them in their Praiers So likewise the honor which Subjects yield unto their Prince presenting their Petitions with bended knees is civil And so Children begging the Blessing of their Parents these are formally Civil not Religious Acts. A good Christian indeed gives honor to his Prince and to his Parents not only upon a civil account but also Religious it being a duty requir'd in the Word of God yet the honor it self is civil the motive unto us wherefore we give it is Religious the will and command of God Phil. You are willing to involve the Discourse with subtle Notions and nice Distinctions Such honor as you give to Princes and Parents vouchsafe to the Saints in Glory begging the assistance of their Praiers upon your knees and it shall suffice Theoph. Your self caus'd this Digression You suppos'd the Invocation of Saints departed to be a Religious act and so in truth you generally make it a great part of your Religion I have shewed how the desire and request which Christians make to one another whilst they are in the Flesh mutually to be remembred in their Praiers is a civil request and therefore no sufficient ground for your Religious Invocation of the Saints in glory But at length you are content we should make the same civil Requests to the Saints in Heaven for their Praiers as to the Faithful who are living You may observe it generally such as are in the wrong will accept of any composition But we cannot grant it for this reason because Death intercepts all civil Obligations and Commerce between Persons Parents when they are dead cease to be provident for their deer Children and these expect it not from them The rich Man departed cannot relieve the poor nor lend him Money at his need You formerly did urge there was a communion between the Church Militant and Triumphant but that is mystical as Fellow-members of Christs Body But the civil communion between Brethren and Neighbors and the relation of Parents and Children Masters and Servants Princes and Subjects Husband and Wife is interrupted altogether by death and so by consequence all those acts which depend upon or flow from that communion That Children should ask their Fathers Blessing after his decease I never yet did read your Doctors have asserted Phil. I am well confirm'd by these your Digressions That notwithstanding you would appear to slight Bellarmins Argument and pretend to cut off all the four Horns at one blow by giving a general answer yet in truth you do warily decline the force of it and are not willing to come to the four Particulars whereupon he hath insisted That seeing the Saints departed are as willing and as able to help us now with their Praiers as when they were living amongst us and seeing they know our state and can hear and receive our Addresses to them and seeing their Intercession now for us is not injurious to the Intercession of Christ therefore we have as much and more reason to Invocate them now in Heaven then when they were conversant with us upon Earth Theoph. Not excluding the confutation already given I will now take these four Particulars into consideration The two first may easily be granted if there could be mutual communion between them and us