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A20215 Answeres to certaine novations desired by some to be embraced by the reformed church some defend one part, others another part of these novations : in this treatise their chief objections are turned into questions. 1638 (1638) STC 664.7; ESTC S1042 60,919 98

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what they speak of God as in psal 8.1 O God our Lord how wonderfull One that hath not the psalm in their memory knoweth not if the works or mercies or fearfull judgements of God or the great power and cruelty of the enemies be called wonderfull untill that the line be sung out and the next line read In psal 84.1 O Lord since vengeance doth to thee c. three lines are sung out and the fourth read before they know the sentence and weak memories forget what they sing before the second or third line be read some can not repeat the first line after the reading They abuse Gods name also when the last line is read albeit they understand it for it is a none sense to sing only apart viz. the last line not the whole sentence with understanding and many understand not the sentence even at the hearing of the last line because they forget the former lines before the last be read so God is rather mocked than praised by this blind implicit faith modest silence hath more true devotion 2. They say that learned men themselves understand not many words which they both read and sing Ignorance is tolerable when God revealeth not the mater but not when men procure it by a rash practise nor yet when they will seem wise in the thing they understand not Will not a king be offended if his servants speak to him as drunken men not knowing what they say but more justly may God be offended at such contempt 3. The proclaimer of lines of times forgetteth the words of his book and he speaketh other words for them 4. Sometimes his book is wrong printed and he bableth as he findeth it 5. Sometimes people distant from him hear not his voice because he heareth his own voice he believeth that all the rest hear it 6. It is a great contempt of Gods worship at every line to interrupt and mar it giving place to a reader Will any interrupt the shearing of corn by tilling so much ground as is shorn at the shearing of every sheaf this interruption is more uncomely 7. Musick orderly used stirreth up mens hearts to praise God cheerfully this interruption diminitheth cheerfulnesse and hindereth attention unto the matter Quest It is comely in the church that one part of the people shall sing and nes all the rest Ans It is as comely as when some read the word with the Reader and the text with the Preacher and as when some use ejaculations at preaching and not all the rest 2. It is more comely than that all the people shall so often interrupt Gods worship giving place unto a Reader 3. Gods Spirit thought it comely that twelve men only should sing at once in the temple not all the rest Chron. 25. the rest may praise God in a vocall manner saying with Iob Blessed be the name of the Lord Or For thine is the kingdome power and glory for Christ in the Lords prayer did conjoin praise with prayer 4. The Lord in Math. 11.25 said I thank thee O heavenly Father Lord of Heaven and Earth c. this was as true praise as when after his last supper he sung a psalme 5. At the Lords birth the sheepheards heard the Angels praised God without reading of lines for concurrance of the sheepheards this angelicall praise may suffice all the world if the musicall praise be not rightly used 6. If men have in their hearts the substantiall praise of the love reverence and of an high estimation of God the matter is little though all their lifetime they want the shaddow of musicall praise 7. The ignorant may be taught a more comely musicall praise without abusing of Gods Name Quest How shall it bee done Answ Teach them to get in their memories short and materiall psalmes for they are capable of badrie songs that once or twise every Sabboth they may sing some of them with the people they may also sing them in their houses and they may sing the conclusion Glory to the Father c. It were better in the Sabboths after publict service to cause them learn to read then interrupt Gods worship with reading Quest Why do sundrie godlie men cause proclame the lines Answ The blind zeal of some thinketh it the best custome 2 Others do it only till they find a fitter occasion to draw unruly people to a better custome as the apostles did permit some I gall rites Act. 15. which in themselves were become dead untill the estate of the church were better satled Quest May we not thus sing to gain such as cannot read as Paul gained the weak ones 1 Cor. 9. Answ Blind zeal neglecteth that which is more needfull viz. by repeating prayers to gain such as can not pray when as men may be good Christians without musicall praise all their lifetime 2. Paul might not be an idolater a drunkard nor a blasphemer to gain others from these vices but he might use or not use the legall rites which in his dayes should end and be buried honestly without sudden violence he gained people from superstition you teach them to be superstitious making them so esteem of musicall praise as if God could not be praised and themselves could not be Christians without it you teach them to abuse Gods name and to be hypocrites in singing words that they understand not so their words mind agree not together Qu. We thus keep them from idle thoughts vvhen others are in a holy exercise Ans You draw them rather both upon idle thoughts idle words when they sing that which they know not 2. Good Christians do confesse that oftimes in their best exercises of prayer and divine praise when they understand the mater they are assaulted with evill thoughts Satan so hateth Gods worship what then can be expected of such as know not what they speak 3 When twelve persons only did sing at once 1 Chron. 29. the Lord knew that their musicall praise did stir up holy reverend thoughts of God in the hearers rather then if the hearers had sung without understanding So Elisha prophesied not being cheared up by his own musick but by a ministrel 2 King 3. when David danced and leaped before the ark rejoising that God was present with his people his joy was stirred up by the musick of others as well as if it were his own musick 1 Chron. 15.28 29. Qu. Do not these Words pertain to all Christians to vvit that they should speak to them selve in psalmes and hymnes and make melodie in their hearts to the Lord Eph. 5.22 Ans None can rejoice to the Lord not knowing a reason of their joy as they do who sing without understāding if the sound of singers stir up their mirth and cheerfulnesse they not knowing the mater it is a melodie in their hearts but not to the Lord except some holy meditations of their own minde concur with the sound 2. If they rejoice in the assurance of
shall be saved this is insert among conceived prayers In psal 136. which was dayly sung in the temple 1 Chron. 16.41 is a set form of praise 26. times repeated viz for his mercie endureth for ever They who reject set forms of prayer use often this set form of praise in meeter which is but a paraphrase of the text 20 the set forms of prayer are paraphrases of the LORDS prayer 6. Christ who best understood the Spirit of prayer heard and accepted the devotion of the people crying Hosanna or Save now I beseech thee taken out of the psal 118.25 which the Hebrews affirm was yearly said at the feast of tabernacles and Mathew 21. showeth that they often repeated the words both before they came to the temple and also within it The pharisies in their hypocrisie were offended thereat but Christ defended and commended it 7. The last prayer in the Scripture is a set form praying for the coming of Christ Revel 22.17 20. The Spirit and the Bride say Corns that is the Spirit spe●keth in the church viz. the regenerat teaching her to say Come And John biddeth them that hear this prophesie say Come and John himself prayeth in the full sentence saying Come Lord Jesus 8. Set formes oftimes seeme to have more of the work of the Spirit then conceived forms for after their first conception other godly men moved by the same Spirit revise them they reteine the materiall and cancell the superfluous and they alter and supplee words needfull Thogh Gods Spirit inable men to pray yet He suffereth humane frailtie to bee seene in their prayers to humble them he giveth no perfection of graces in this life conceived prayers are not so well tryed though some boast much of them in contempt of set formes Quest Are any so infirme that they have need of set formes more than of conceived formes Answ Negligent pastours never try it neither know they that many people never understand nor can imitate conceived formes because themselves and others whom they take notise of can conceive they think that all men can conceive But these following among others have more need of set formes then of conceived formes 1. Some weak Christians of a honest life and of good age could never remember all the Lords prayer as their Pastours affirme who diligently taught them If they cannot remember a few words often repeated much lesse varietie of words never twise repeated 2. Others learned the Lords prayer but cold do no further 3 Some learned also set formes by frequent hearing of them but could never conceive 4. Some using set formes a long time in end became able to conceive once in the day and they also used dayly a set form for the weaker sort 5. Some children could pray nothing at all untill they had used set formes but afterwards they conceived 6. Some by a distempered brain can not conceive when the disease rageth but at other times they conceive few congregations want some of these if they have not all 7. It is a very eloquent and powerfull prayer with God if a humble heart groan under the burden of sin with faith and fervent desires of mercie and sanctification though they can scarslie expresse three words without these all varietie of words and conceptions is but babling Moses at the red sea and Anna at the house of the Lord in Shilo prayed in the spirit of prayer not uttering one word He is a blinde judge that measures inward grace by outward eloquence 8. If there were but one of those weak ones in a congregation a faithfull Pastor should use set formes to teach them to pray for their private use they are cruell and mercilesse sheepheards who neglect the weak ones in a mater so needfull for salvation 9. And when they are helped with a better conscience they may conceive for the stronger sort Quest When I use set formes men esteeme basely of my preaching account me unlearned if I expresse not varietie of meditations Answ But when you conceive in the prayers following they will change their thoughts 2. For your estimation should you suffer the weak ones to perish not teaching them to be acquainted with God by prayer 3. The disciple is nor above his master the Lord and his apostles used set formes not fearing contempt you should do the like Quest When the Lord taught his disciples to pray he said not Vse these words but Pray after this manner Ans The Evangelists write both to be after the Lords meaning for Math 6. saith Pray in this manner Luke 11. saith When you pray say Our Father which art in Heaven c. The speech of Matthew who did first write the Gospel can not be the interpretation of the speech of Luke who had not as yet written it for the custome of the Scripture showeth and the order of nature requireth that the interpretation should bee given after the obscure words but not before them 2. If the LORDS prayer conteine things needfull for us we may use the same words to expresse the same things which CHRIST the wisdome of the Father used If it signifie not things needfull it were a fools sacrifice to pray after the manner thereof seeking things needlesse 3. Therefore modest Christians more wisely do conclude their own prayers with it acknowledging thereby it to be more perfect and significative than any prayer conceived by sinfull man 4. Some call it hard and obscure Preachers should explaine obscure Scriptures chiefly which are dayly in use If thou think it obscure thou canst not form a prayer like it nor imitat the thing thou knowest not neverthelesse use this prayer for the Lord unto whom nothing is obscure knew that it meant things needfull for thee and pray the Lord to hear thee after his own meaning in it 5. Some strain out a gnat and swallow a cable abhorring all set forms of prayer and yet after Divine service they say the blessing in a set forme Quest It is not mentioned in Scripture that the apostles said the Lords prayer Ergo we should not say it Answ Charitie should perswade us that they obeyed the Lords commandment in using it seeing no Scripture saith the contrate Many of the apostles had they never faith and repentance nor the love of GOD and honoured they never their parents because particular mention of these things are not in Scripture Qu. Is it not a tautologie to conclude our prayers with the Lords prayer seeing we have prayed for the same thing alreadie Ans A tautologie is a needlesse repetition of the same words or mater but when we repeat the same things to show the vehemencie of our desires it is not needlesse 2. A conceived prayer repeateth oftimes the same mater though it change the words 3 To this effect the Lord in Math. 6. after the Lords prayer taught us to say the word Amen which summarly includeth in it the whole prayer 4. Every repetition includeth in it self a new complaint
through impatiencie Lot whose righteous soule the Sodomites vexed 2 Pet. 2.8 fell in incest and drunkennesse See proposition 3. and 6. The second proposition THough Christians so long as they are but children in grace should have their hearts filled with such fear of God as Scripture recommends yet when they attaine unto perfect love they should bee void of all fear Luke chap. 1. verse 74. Ans That text speaketh of the fear of enemies from which Gods people being delivered by Christ shall serve God in safetie not fearing them any more this deliverance is now begun and shall be perfited in the life to come 2. Salomon Proverb 28.14 saith Blessed is he that feareth alwayes they can not be blessed without this perfect love Moses in Deut. 6.13 sayeth Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God and serve him Paul saith Philip. 2.12 Work out thy salvation with fear and trembling He saith not Begin the work like little children but work it out like men of perfect age The third proposition CHristians effectually called seing they want nothing of the glorified Saints but the separation of the soul from the body they need not all pray for themselves but only for others Therefore the Antimonians never say the Lords prayer Answ The proposition is false and the condition also viz. that Christians have such perfection of glory in this life Gods word proveth it not 2. Salomon 1 King 8.46 2 Chron. 6.36 saith There is no man that sinneth not and Prover 20.9 Who can say I have made my heart cleane I am pure from my sin David Psal 40.18 saith I delight to doe thy will c. This is a perfection in number but not in degrees for he subjoineth in vers 12. that his iniquities are mo than the hairs of his head and in vers 13. he prayeth for himself They who are not effectually called can neither pray for themselves nor for others David also in psal 51. and 6. and 143. and else-where Daniel greatly beloved of the Lord Dan. 9.18 19. Steven full of the holy Ghost Act. 7.55.59 Elias 1 King 18. The apostles after they had received the holy Ghost Act. 4.24 c. Paul after he was ravished to the third heaven 2 Cor. 12. Old Simeon Luke 2.29 c. all these prayed for themselves The fourth proposition CHristians effectually called have their souls refreshed at all times with the sense of Gods love mentioned Rom. 4. The joy flowing from it actually continueth without interruption and that it neither can nor should be mixed with sorrow upon any occasion for seeing they enjoy the presence of God the ground of their joy the children of the marriage chamber should not mourn Answ All creatures have continually the essentiall presence of God The Regenerat have alwayes his gratious sanctifying presence for Christ said I am with you unto the end of the world Math. 28.20 But no Christians in this life enjoy his intuitive presence wherein is fulnesse of permanent joy without interruption Paul ravished to the third heaven had his joy iuterrupted by the messenger of Satan buffeting him and 1 Cor. 4.8 9. saith We are perplexed but not in despair cast downe but not destroyed Perplexitie interrupteth joy 3. In 1 Cor. 5.6 While We are at home in the bodie we are absent from the LORD his soul being in his body he was sensible of this absence 2 Job 3.1 3. Cursed the day of his birth and chap. 17.7 he saith My eye is dim because of sorrow The fifth proposition A Christian may get such perfection of grace in this life which after his effectuall calling needeth no more addition according to that Philip. 3.15 As many as are perfect be thus minded Answ That place proveth the contrarie for if their perfection needed no addition why addeth Paul That they may bee thus minded The preceeding verses 12 13 14. show how Paul confessed himself not to have perfection of degrees but of numbers for He forgetteth things bebinde and reacheth unto things before pressing towards the mark hee subjoineth Let these who are perfect bee thus minded that is Let them studie continually to have addition in grace pressing towards the mark 2. In Ephes 4.14 15. he acknowledgeth that they who should afterwards be no more children yet they should grow in all things in CHRIST their head and in 1 Cor. 4.14 speaking of himself and of others he saith Though the outward man perish the inward man is renewed dayly 3. Peter 2 Pet. 3.17.18 acknowledgeth that the people have a steedfastnesse in grace and exhorts that they fall not from it but to grow in it Job speaking of the righteous man chap. 17.9 hee saith Hee shall be stronger and stronger the Hebrew is He shall adde strength The sixth proposition TRue and unfeined repentance though it be a singular grace of GOD yet it should have no place in the soul of a Christian effectually called by grace for three reasons 1. Because the gratious pardon of GOD is not in part but in whole of sins bygone present and to come and therefore seeing pardon was obteined once upon condition of repentance the practise of repentance is not to be renewed 2. Because he that is born of GOD sinneth not 1 John 3.9 partly seeing the seed of GOD remaineth in him and partly by reason of his union with Christ 3. Where repentance is there must be grief and sorrow but the joy of a Christian must not be interrupted Answ 1. They say The effectually called should not repent We say They who are not effectually called can not repent because they want faith the tree that bringeth foorth such fruit How then shall faith and true repentance be found in the world 2. If any be effectually called the Iust must be so called but they fall seven times a day and as often they rise again there is no rising again but by repentance Answer to the first reason Pardon of sin was also obteined upon condition of faith as well as repentance If repentance must not be continued nor iterat no more must faith and so Christians having once believed and repented thereafter they must be infidels and impenitent Persons contrarie to the Scripture saying The Just shall live by faith Hebr. 10.28 2. Paul 1 Cor. 4.16 sayeth The inward man is renewed dayly see Luke 17.4 3. They say Pardon is granted also for sins to come but in the first proposition they deny that the effectually called sin any more because of their union with Christ and in the second reason of this proposition they say the same So Satan fighteth against himselfe his kingdome can not stand 4. They say Our bygone repentance is also for sins to come How can we repent the sins we know not we may depart from this life to day or at this hour Answer to the second reason If any be born of GOD it is the just men but they fall seven times in a day In 1 John 1.8 it is said If we say