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A10699 A Catholicke conference betvveene Syr Tady Mac. Mareall a popish priest of VVaterforde, and Patricke Plaine a young student in Trinity Colledge by Dublin in Ireland VVherein is deliuered the certayne maner of execution that was vsed vpon a popish bishop, and a popish priest, that for seueral matters of treason were executed at Dublin the first of February, now last past. 16ll. Strange to be related, credible to be beleeued, and pleasant to bee perused. By Barnabe Rych, Gent. seruant to the Kinges most excellent Maiestie. Rich, Barnabe, 1540?-1617. 1612 (1612) STC 20981; ESTC S115901 41,203 61

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the country that was neare about it why then the Chayre of Moses which Christ here spake of was nothing else but the doctrine of Moses which hee hadde formerly taught and left vnto them and which Christ in this place willed his Disciples to heare and likewise to followe what the Scribes and Pharises sayd and taught but not to doe as they did to followe their sayinges but not their doinges euen so likewise Peters Seate Peters Keyes and Peters doctrine are all one and the selfe same thing but this doctrine of the preaching of the Gospell your Pope hath abolished at Rome and in the place thereof hee hath set vp the preaching of his owne lawes of his owne decrees and of his owne traditions and therefore he sitteth not on the seat of Peter but in the Seate of Antichrist in the Chayre of pestilence and for Peters comming to Rome it can doe your Pope no good at all he may well bragge a little of the matter but it will not serue his turne Ta. Thus you would conclude that Saint Peters seate consisted in nothing more then in the preaching of the Gospell And by this you woulde depriue him not onely of his Patrimony but also of his Dignity Saint Peter is little beholding to Protestants for of him that was called the Prince of the Apostles they would make him to be but Minimus Apostolorum but if to preach the Gospell be to sit in Peters Seate was it not Peter to whom Christ especially recommended the feeding of his flocke And what is meant by the feeding of the sheepe but the preaching of the word and ministring of the sacraments which as it was commended to Peter especially so it remaineth a precept for euer to the Popes that are his successors And was it not to Peter againe to whom Christ sayd I haue prayd for thee Peter that thy faith might not fayle what malitious impietie then in Protestantes to spurne against that Principality that Christ himselfe hath confirmed not onely to Peter himselfe but to the rest that bee his successors in the holy sea of Rome Pa. First for this prioritie that papistes would so faine ascribe to Peter aboue the rest of the Apostles I say our Sauiour Christ hath long sithens determined when in the 10. of Saint Markes Gospell hee told them that there shoulde bee no precedencie amongst them nor the one to bee accounted more worthy then the other and therefore flatly decreed betweene them that hee that would aspire to be greatest the same should be least now for Saint Peter esteeme him as you please choose how you will account him to be either Maximus or Minimus But what blockishnes is in papists to thinke that because Christ commanded Peter to feede his flocke that this precept therefore was giuen but to Peter himselfe as though that commandement to feede the flocke of Christ did not belong as farre foorth to all the Apostles as it did to Peter I will tell you Syr Tady there is not so simple a minister in the Church of God that hath cure of soules but according to his measure is as straightly tyed to the feeding of Christes flocke as euer was any Pope of Rome or as Peter or as Paul or as any other of the twelue Apostles And now for your Popes that you say are successours vnto Peter if wee shoulde looke into the foode what it is they haue distributed and consider of the diligence they haue vsed in performing this precept thus left vnto Peter we should find that in feeding the sheepe they haue poysoned the pasture they haue infected corrupted it with the venemous leauen of their owne lawes and traditions and in stead of giuing foode they haue fleeced the flocke they haue made a shambles of the sheepe haue murthered and massacred the innocent lambes such hauocke your Popes haue kept amongst the Saintes of God and yet they would be accounted to be Peters successors but what a counterfeit Hypocrite is your Pope that vnder a shew of humility will professe himselfe to be Seruus seruorum and yet will take vpon him to controule and dominere ouer Emperours and Kinges and because Christ hath sayd I haue prayd for thee Peter that thy faith shoulde not fayle therefore say the papistes the Pope cannot erre thus they doe wrest and wrythe holy scriptures to serue their fleshly appetites and as for Saint Peters Patrimonie Saint Peters Seate Saint Peters Keyes Saint Peters Power Saint Peters Authoritie yea and Saint Peter himselfe they are all made props and supporters to vphold the Popes pride Ta. Why how now Patricke what art thou out of thy wittes wilt thou impugne saint Peters authority or wilt thou denie that he hath absolute power both to bind and to loose either in heauen or in earth as Christ himselfe hath giuen and warranted vnto him Pa. I denie him nothing but that he had full power and authority by the preaching of the Gospel both to bind to loose to open and to shut and to doe all thinges in as large and ample maner as eyther Iames or Iohn Philip or Bartholomew or any other of the Apostles whom our Sauiour himselfe after his resurrection armed with equall authority when in the 20. of Iohn he sent them into the world to preach to all nations Ta. Thus I perceiue you can be contented that Peter shoulde march with the rest of the Apostles in equall ranke but you will not admit him any supreame authority Pa. If you can alleadge but any one place of scripture that doth giue vnto Peter any more then the rest you shall finde me apt enough to acknowledge it Ta. Is not this confirmation enough when Peter is the rocke whereon Christ himselfe said he would build his Church Pa. I wonder papistes are not ashamed to vrge that place of scripture so grossely Peter acknowledging Christ to be the sonne of God our Sauiour answered Vppon thisrocke I will builde my Church the Pope would haue the rocke to bee Peter himselfe whereon Christ promised to build his Church when indeede it was the faith of Peter confessing Christ to bee the sonne of God for faith is the rocke whereon Christes Church is built for who is of Christes Church but he onely that beleeueth Christ to bee the sonne of God this faith is it against which the gates of Hel cannot preuaile Ta. What malicious despight is this to depriue Saint Peter of his principalitie giue him some preheminence for shame if it be but because he was the first amongst the Apostles that confessed Christ to be the sonne of God Pa. It is truth Peter was the first amongst the Apostles that confessed Christ to be the sonne of God and so he was the first againe that denyed his master neither doe wee seeke to depryue that blessed Apostle of any pryoritie that the word of God doth allowe him but rather to curtall your Idolatrous Pope who by magnifiyng of Peter woulde thereby exalt himselfe Peters
towne corporate is inioyned for that houre to the seruice of the prince and how can a man more honestly expresse his zeale to the pope then flatly to deny his seruice to his prince I say that Catholicke that will offer himselfe to prison in such a case as yearely they doe almost in euery towne is worthy to attaine that estimation that he himselfe doth so much desire Pa. And what is that to be accounted a reble a traytor and a false hearted villayne to his prince Ta. No syr he doth it out of the loue he beareth to the Pope therefore amongest Catholickes to be beloued honored esteemed cherished and to be reputed for a patron a protector and a demy saint so long as he liueth and after his death to be canonized numbred and regestred in the Popes Calender Pa. Why then ●o commit a papist to pryson is rather a grace then a disgrace vnto him Ta. I tell you it is a glory vnto him he doth reioyce in it hee doth triumph in it he doth knowe himselfe to bee renowned by it Pa. But doth your townes-men that bee thus ill affected to their prince indure anie great penurie during the time of their imprysonment Ta. Now God and our blessed Lady defend it no sir they liue in pleasure they lie well they fare well they are frequented by their friends and rather then they should liue in lacke the whole cittie where they dwell will contribute towardes their charges Pa. But is not this a gratious clemencie in a soueraigne that will suffer those corporations to houlde or inioy any liberties or priuiledges that are thus opposite to himselfe and repugnant to his lawes Ta. Speake not of clemency Patricke where the priestes that shoulde sacrifice for the sinnes of the people are constrayned to liue in a disguised sort but not in open show Pa. And by this counterfeit shift of disguising themselues they march vp and downe the streets of Dublyne and where they list besides seducing the people without impeachment Ta. And from whence is that but by the mighty power of God that is able to protect his seruants although in the Lions denne and therefore he that hath any wit in his head will neuer seeke to apprehend trouble or molest any Catholicke priest Pa. Whereof should we stand in feare or doubt Ta. Of more enemies then friendes bee sure of that And name mee but any one manne that hath most buisied himselfe in those matters that hath gotten eyther gaine or grace and lette it bee that a Catholicke priest bee sometimes apprehended as God bee thanked for it it is seldome seene in Ireland doth he not vse his priestly dignitie in as large and as ample manner as if hee were at libertie in what pryson can you shutte him vppe but there he maketh holy water holy bread holy falt holy candell and for those that haue continuall accesse vnto him aswell men women and children he confirmes them still and reconciles them to the pope Pa. But doe you reconcile so many to the Pope when you be in prison as you speake of Ta. Both in pryson and out of prison we reconcile as many as will heare or beleeue vs. Pa. What to be traytors to the prince Ta. No syr but to vow themselues to the pope without any intended treason to the prince Pa. But this reconciled sort must in the end become traitors to the prince whether they ment it at the first or nay for when it pleaseth your holy father to depose the prince and to excommunicate as many as will acknowledge him for a lawfull magistrate as many times he hath done what shall your reconciled sort do then Ta. If a prince bee a heriticke shoulde wee communicate with him Pa. We may then condemne his heresie but we must pray for his person as the Apostle hath taught vs I exhort you therefore that first of all supplications prayers and intercessions be made for Kings and so for all that are in authoritie Ta. That is meete so long as they be good christians Pa. The aduertisement was written from Paul to Tymothy and at that time when princes were both infidels and Idolators Ta. I thinke those kings that be pagans are rather to be prayed for then those that be heretickes Pa. The church of Christ hath prayed for those princes that were heretickes that in the middest of their impietie and hottest tyrany Constantius for one that was an Arian and yet was prayed for by the decree of a common Counsell Ta. Perhaps they might do this in the beginning of his raigne before his heresie was discouered Pa. Perhaps there are none but papists that would appose any such doubtes and what are they but traytors that woulde teach subiectes to rebell Ta. It is no treason to say the Pope may depose princes when he hath receiued that power from Christ Pa. If you coulde but proue that we might the better beleeue you in some other matters Ta. Hath he not the keyes of the kingdome of heauen Pa. So hath euery other person that is a minister of the word of God but what haue they to do with the kingdōes of the earth our Sauiour beeing demaunded by Pilate what kingdome it was that hee claimed openly avowed My kingdome is not of this world but the Pope that takes vppon him but to be his Vicar woulde dispose of all the kingdomes in the world Ta. May not the shepheard reclaime the sheepe if he will not be ruled Pa. So he may sell the sheepe to the Butcher if he bee fat but what is that to your Pope woulde you haue him to doe the like by princes I hope you vnderstand Syr Tady that all similitudes be no sylogismes Ta. For all this I cannot thinke it any treason to defende that the pope may lawfully depose any prince for tyrany or heresie Pa. I cannot let you to thinke what you list but I can tell you truly it is treason by the lawes of the Realme to subiect eyther the princes sword or his crowne to the Popes courtes or in any sort to his vsurped power Ta. The time hath beene when Princes might in no wise meddle with ecclesiasticall persons and I warrant you the Pope will neuer giue his consent that any prince of them all shoulde haue lawfull authoritie to punish a priest Pa. God be thanked of a good amendment Princes are beecome to be more wise and I thinke you haue heard of some prety store of your trayterous priestes that haue already hopped as far as from Tyber to Tyburne and there is some hope that shortly more will follow Ta. I haue hearde of some that suffered martyrdome but I know you will say they were executed for treason when in truth it was but for the testimony of their consciences Pa. And if it be a matter of conscience for priests and Iesuites to vndermine a princes estate and to stirre vp their subiectes to rebell to goe about to plucke the crowne from their