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A16170 A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist. Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628. 1598 (1598) STC 3092; ESTC S102284 61,282 90

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neyther ought I to pay vnto God any becau●e I am his sonne But if any man will contend that hee affirmed that he ought to pay no tribute to the Emperour because he was the sonne of the supreme Emperour God Almightie I will not greatly striue with him but I will in noe wise graunt Felicius that he claimes to be discharged by right of any earthlie Empyre that he possessed as Christ for that by no meanes can be gathered out of the text yea what say you that that famous fryer Dominicus Soto doth holde in learned worke de Iustit Iure that the kingdome of Christ was meere spirituall and writeth that he had proued it at large in his commentaries vppon Mathew Moreouer the matter is so manifest that Pighius himselfe is forced to confesse that Christ his kingdome was onely spirituall and yet he giueth to him whome he woulde haue to be his deputie temporall superioritie ouer all Christian princes in that hee is Christ his Lieuetenant with as greate absurdidie as if a man shoulde denie that the Archbishoppe of Canterburie can heare and determine of felonies and yet holde that his officiall may or depriue the Constable of authoritie to enter forciblie into any mans house otherwise then in cases of treason and felonie and yet graunt it to the Constables deputie or to say that hir Maiestie can not put in or out at hir pleasure anie souldiours into hir towne of Barwicke and yet maintaine that hir Lieuetenaunt of the Towne may doe it And see I pray you how he answereth this obiection out of the Gospell as my father sent me so I sende you Whereas they say that Christ came not to exercise authoritie and empyre ouer Monarches Kinges and princes but as he was sente by the father Christ gaue no temporal power to Bishops nor Pope soe he doth witnesse that the Apostles were sent by him neyther therefore had they authoritie ouer kinges and princes they gather not aright for that word as doth not import a likenes in all points betweene them whih were sent Chist and his Apostles but doth shew the senders or the authoritie of the senders As if he had saide my father sent me but I send you otherwise Christ was sent by his father to redeeme mankind by his death but not so neyther to that end were the Apostles sent by Christ but for this purpose that they shoulde out of all nations gather together his kingdom in the which all men should be made partakers of his benefits vnto the which kingdom yet he himselfe had prescribed lawes and had ordained Peter to be gouernour thereof Yet had Peter no more authority then the rest of the Apostles I deny not but that the sending of Christ did in some pointes surmount the sending of the Apostles but that Christ sent forth his Apostles with a larger commission and power then his father had giuen him that no man I thinke will lightly grant Pighius that knoweth that rule of the Canon Law yea and I doe thinke of all lawes Nemo potest pius iuris conferre in alium quam sibi competere dignoscatur No man can giue more right vnto another then may be knowen is in himselfe the saying of Christ that the scholler is not aboue his schoolemaster nor the bondman aboue his Lord but it is enough for the scholler to be as his master is and the bondman as his Lord. And Iohn 13. Verily verily I say vnto you the seruāt is not greater then his master neither the Apostle nor legate or messenger greater then him that sent him And with what authority he sent them it appeareth by the words that immediatly follow when he had said these wordes he blew vpon them and said vnto them receiue the holy ghost whose sins ye shall remit they are remitted and whose sins ye shall retaine they are retained and can any man call this power an earthly empyre And bycause Pighius saith that Christ had ordained Peter gouernour of his kingdome I pray let vs consider what power he gaue vnto him at the time of his institution or inauguration his wordes be these Mat. 16. I will giue vnto thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde vpon the earth shall also be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose vpon the earth shall be also loosed in heauen yee apparantly see that Christ gaue vnto Peter not the keyes of the earthly kingdome or Empire to aduaunce and depose Princes but of the Kingdome of heauen to let in or shutte out from heauen neither had hee a sworde or Scepter giuen him as ensigne of a King but a key a token of a porter So that except the Pope can shewe annother Chapter then that which was giuen to Peter he will want wordes to carrie away a terrene monarch But although Pighius doe grant Christe his kingdome to be spiriuall yet Felisius in his booke vppon the tenne commaundements Felisius obiectiōs of Christs kingdom answered on the Commaundement honour thy father and thy mother will not yeelde thereunto but endeauoureth to proue his secular power and monarchy by his practise in deciding all kinde of causes as of life and death when he badde Peter put vp his sworde of criminall when he willed the woman taken in adultery to be gone and of ciuill when he determined the controuersi betweene the Pharisies the Herodians whether the Iewes ought to pay tribute vnto the Emperours of Rome or noe Doubtlesse if Felisius were not accounted for a great learned man among the Catholickes Romaine I would not vouchsafe to shape these obiections an answeare they are soe friuolous For who seeth not that Christ his commanding of Peter to put vp his sworde doth no more proue that Christ had authoritie of publique Iustice then the bidding of any simple gentleman in the Citty of London that his man put vp his sword which he had drawen in a fray against his enemy will conuince him to be a Iustice of the peace of the same Citty But that Christ saide vnto the woman taken in adultery that she might begonne her way for seeing noe man had condēned hir neyther would he He doth plainly declare that he had noe authoritie to condemne or detaine hir but that she might be gone for any thing he had to say or deale with hir Now for the matter of paying tribute it was not brought before him as a competent Iudge by parties sueing and sued by processe awarded or vppon distresse taken but onely moued vnto him as a skilful Doctor and learned diuine to be determined as a doubt betweene the two sectes of the Pharisies and the Herodians As if a Protestant and Catholicke should priuately come to Doctor Felisius to know his opinion whether the Pope may depose Christian Princes or noe but in very deede they came not to Christ to be resolued of the doubt but onely to entrappe him and to see if
hauock he made in all the the Churches subiect vnto him in Italy Sicileye and Sardinia and yet for all this Peter drewe not the sworde for hee yet remembred how bitterly his master had once checked him before for fighting Anno Dom. 700. Iustinianus the Emperour saith Diaconus commaunding Constantine the Pope to come vnto him honourably receiued him Constantine and sent him backe whom he beeing prostrated on the ground desired to be an intercessor vnto God for his sinnes renewed all the priuiledges of his Church why then the priuiledges were first giuen by the Emperour and not by God himselfe But that the Emperour fell downe at the Bishops feete it was done in respect not of his greatnesse but of his godlinesse a thing vsually done by great princes vnto ancient Monkes and Hermites renowned for their strict life and rare pietie whereof all Christian histories yeelde vs store of examples and this to be soe doth his request of intercession vnto GOD for his sinnes manifestly shewe But to returne againe to our practise about Anno Domini 690. another Iustinian the Emperour sent Zacharias his Protospatharius or high Constable into Italy for to bring Sergius the Bishop of Rome Sergius vnto him in Irons because he woulde not subscribe vnto a lewde counsell helde by him at Constantinople Sabell and he had done it if that the Emperiall Armie in Italy what for hatred of the Emperour and the good will of the Pope and his cause had not speedily marched to Rome to withstand his apprehension yet this Emperour did afterwarde renewe for Constantine the Bishop a confirmation of all the p●iuiledges of the Sea of Rome This Constantine was the first Bishop of Rome saith Omphrius the newe Chronicler of the Popes Qui in os ausus est resistere which durst resist the Emperours of Constantinople to their faces for he at the importunate petition of the people of Rome who requested it with great outcries decreede that the name of Philippicus the Emperour shoulde not be mentioned at the Aulter nor in anie writing or recordes nor his image set vp in their Churches because he had commaunded the Bishop to consent vnto his Arrianisme and the abolishing of the Images of Saintes But Paulus Diaconus who liued neare that time writeth that statuit populus the people decreede and not the Pope About Anno Domini 7●5 Leo Isauricus the Emperour commaunded Gregory the Bishop of Rome Gregorie the second to destroy all the images of the Saintes the which he refused to doe But although the Emperour did execute many therefore and about that matter banished the patriarch of Constantinople and had sundry times practised the Popes death both couertly and also by open forces causing the Eparch to bring his Armie before the Citie of Rome where he was repelled by the Lombardes yet woulde the Pope by no meanes be wonne to consent that a new Emperour should be chosen in Ital●e the which was now in a good forwardnesse the people hauing slaine Martin the gouernour of the Citie of Rome and his sonne the Lieuetenant of Campania and the Citizens of Rauenna the Eparch and had chosen them almost in euerie Citie newe officers But Gregorie woulde by no meanes consent thereunto but wonne them to be quiet with much a doe But when the Emperour woulde not desist from forcing of his edict for the abolishment of Images vppon the Romanes and the Italians Gregorie the third successor vnto the other helde a Counsell in Italie wherein he excommunicated the Emperour and then the Citizens of Rome and all the teritorie about called by the name of the Duchy of Rome reuolted from the Emperour who was negligent in defending them against the Lombardes that had sweeped him almost out of all Italie from Rome to the Alpes and soe the Pope became prince of the Citie and Duchie of Rome S. Sigon de regno Italiae and subiect vnto no man about the yeare 730. And to establish the state of the Romane principalitie by stopping of titles Zacharias the Pope wonne his Creator Pepine the french king to spoyle Aistulfus the king of the Lombardes of Rauenna by right whereof beeing the siege of the Gotish kingdome and the emperiall exarchate in Italy The Pope cannot depose princes he claimeth tribute of the Romanes and for to bestowe it vppon him and his successors for to take away all quarrell for euer Thus ye see that the Bishoppes of Rome were alwaies subiect vnto the temporall princes of the Citie vntill such time as the reuolting people had created him their prince as all other Bishops in ciuill soueraigne so that the Popes are not exempted of temporall subiection by the institution of GOD but by the election of men as the high priestes became to be soueraignes after the returne of the Iewes from Babylon there beeing ordained to be the temporall prince Then seeing by the ordinance of God the Pope was a subiect and by the creation of men beeing made a soueraigne onely ouer some certaine prouinces I cannot see howe eyther by Gods Law or mans hee can rightly claime anie authoritie to depose Christian princes at his pleasure no more then any other subiecte can his soueraigne or seuerall soueraignes one another to grant eyther of which is soe absurde that I shoulde shewe my selfe to haue verie little witte if I shoulde goe aboute to refute eyther as though any man that had common sense woulde doubte of them For to reason that Sixtus Quintus because hee is secular soueraigne ouer these prouinces which are called the patrimonie of Peter may therefore depose all other Christian princes is as good an argument as if I shoulde saie ELIZABETH is Queene of England therefore she may depose the prince of the patrimonie and all other Christian princes So that by prouing my first proposition that Christ gaue vnto Peter and his successors no soueraignetie secular I haue also conuinced the seconde that they can not depriue Christian princes of their principalities The Pope cannot depose the temporall soueraine Neyther is the Popes claime anie thing aduanced by those two sayinges of Christ vnto Peter which I doe finde alleadged by Gregorie the seuenth when hee first of anie Pope deposed Henry the fourth Emperour as the warrant of his doings Plati The first is feede my sheepe wherein hee did not sayde Gregorie exempt Kinges And the other whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on the earth shall be bound in Heauen and whatsoeuer thou doest loose in the earth shall be loosed in Heauen For I haue proued before that Christ his kingdome was spirituall and soe a spirituall charge of soules hee committed to Peter and the rest of the Apostles and their successors and noe Empyre ouer the bodies and goods of anie men But Doctor S●u●ders takes greate holde of the Greeke woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Poimaine which the Apostle vseth when Christ bad Peter the second time to feede his sheepe for that