Selected quad for the lemma: heaven_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
heaven_n	father_n	person_n	trinity_n	1,855	5	9.8106	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A82528	A friendly debate on a weighty subject: or, a conference by writing betwixt Mr Samuel Eaton and Mr John Knowles concerning the divinity of Iesus Christ: for the beating out, and further clearing up of truth.	Eaton, Samuel, 1596?-1665.; Knowles, John, fl. 1646-1668.	1650 (1650)	Wing E121; Thomason E609_16; ESTC R205964	49,997	66

enjoy the discoveries of Gods hidden secrets Thus Paul was in the third heavens when he heard unspeakable words which is not possible for a man to utter 2 Cor. 12. In this sense Christ was in heaven saith Grotius Christus introspexit patris intima saith he Christ looked into the most secret things of the Father 3. Because this sense which I have joyn'd to this text makes the text appear as fitly joyn'd with its context In those two verses which immediately precede this Christ doth reprove Nicodemus for his unbelief which he aggravates from the certainty of the thing spoken Verily verily we speak what we know c. and then from his perspicuity in speaking if I have told you earthly things that is either things that may and are necessary to be known in the earth or else the words have respect onely to the manner of Christs holding them forth and ye beleeve not how can ye beleeve if I should tell you of heavenly things In this thirteenth verse you have an exclusion of all men Christ excepted from the knowledg of heavenly things which are reserved for another world or which are known here as they are in themselves THe last Scripture which I find in your Paper John 17.15 is Ioh. 17.5 And now ô Father glorifie me with thine own self with the glory I had with thee before the world was Answ This Verse is part of Christs prayer and will no way disrelish this meaning O thou Father who dost abound in kindness and art the fountain of goodness the time being come of finishing my course in earth and returning to thy self glorifie me in heaven who have emptied my self taking to me a naturall and mortall body and walking among men in form of a servant and now being ready to humble my self to the death even the death of the Cross in obedience to thee with that glory which I had in heaven before the world was being then with thee as Heir of all things clothed with Majesty and Glory answerable to that high station wherein thy pleasure was to set me and to that great dominion wherewithall thou wast pleased to invest me SIR What you can fetch from this scripture to confirm your doctrine of Christ's Deitie doth lie as yet under the shadow of darkness and in the land of obscurity That much might be gathered hence by a good deduction to make opposition against your assertion is not a little perspicuous and apparent A few things I shall present you with as a taste of that which might be gathered hence to disown that point and conclusion which with so much heat and passion you endevour to uphold and maintain amongst us It appears from this Scripture That whole Christ is a Creature First in that he directs his prayer to the Father If our Lord Jesus were God equal with the Father there had been no need nor can cause be shew'd why he should supplicate to the Father a Person in the Trinity and not act relyance on the Godhead which dwelt in him bodily These words spake Iesus and lift up his eyes to heaven v. 1. Secondly in that the Glory was not divine which he had with the Father before the world was Because this Glory which he had in heaven with the Father before the world was at this time of his praying was separated from him This must be asserted or I know not how Christs prayer can be justified We doe not pray but praise for things we have if we know that we have them but it cannot be imagined that Christ was ignorant of what he had Now if Christ were a person in the Trinity coequall with the Father and so enjoying by the same right the highest Glory he could not especially with the Father or in heaven be without it in any sense whatsoever as by the clouding darkning or obscuring of it Therefore the glory which he had with the Father was not the highest glory but a glory proceeding from the Highest and so by good consequence He who at that time was the subject of it was really and indeed a Creature Thirdly it appears that the Glory which he had with the Father was not Divine or the highest Glory because it was to be communicated Glorifie me ô Father with that glory c. Now the Highest Glory being infinite could not be given or communicated to the humane nature which was finite and so uncapable of it This is but your own assertion in what you speak relating to the creation but 't is absurd to conceive that the Divine glory which is essentiall in God could be communicated to the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ And therefore this Glory was not the highest and the subject of it was a Creature Thus I shall take my leave of the Scriptures which you alledg to confirm that Jesus Christ is the most High God leaving them for that they are intended for being without controversie not useless but exceeding usefull SIR Unto your texts of Scripture you adjoyn one Reason if it please you so to call it which I shall set down in your own words thus It may be said truly that this Doctrine which makes Christ a meer creature brings in as it were another Gospel destroys the true Gospel in many of the parts of it and brings in another Scripture in many main points Come now let us reason together concerning this your Reason which is formidable in appearance to your Antagonists but whether it carries the Sword of truth in its hand and strength of conviction let us now seriously consider That we may with the more certainty and facility determine I shall be your leave draw your Reason into the form of an Argument Thus That Doctrine which brings in as it were another Gospel destroys the true Gospel in many of the parts of it c. is erroneous and to be rejected But that Doctrine which makes Christ a meer creature doth so Therefore SIR I shall subscribe with both hands if need be to the Major that it is true And if the Minor be of the same blood I shall conclude with you in the conclusion and let him be Anathema that holds the contrary But how will it appear that that Doctrine which makes Christ a meer creature doth bring in as it were another Gospel destroys the true Gospel in many of the parts of it c That it might be evident you bring in twelve Instances which were they good and true though fewer might serve for a sufficient Jury to bring in a finall verdict concerning the thing in debate but of what moment your Instances are let us now examine Instance 1 If Christ be but a meer creature and not God then the giving ef Divine worship and honour and service to a meer creature is lawfull and warrantable which yet everywhere is forbidden in reference to any creature but is practised unto Christ in Rev. 5.12 13 14. and would be Idolatry if Christ were not God Answ

Sabellianism Your Third Scripture is Tit. 3.13 Tit. 3.13 which I shall pass over till I come to your second paper where it is brought forth in a more formal way and with an appearance of greater strength THat which follows is 1 Iohn 5.20 1 Iohn 5.20 This is the true God and eternall life Answ Christ is the most high God in that he is as you suppose here called the true God The words I confess at the first blush seems to stand on your side but if well considered they speak not a word for your cause for they relate not to the Son but to the Father onely First if we consider these words this is the true God and eternal life as an intire body of themselves not having dependance on the words immediately preceding as probably they have not being by a full point separated from them then they are the Epitome Abridgement or summe of the whole Epistle And so the Apostles mind seems to be this This Father which I have in this my Epistle treated of is the true God and this Iesus Christ of whom I have spoken and in whom ye have believed is eternal life that is the way to it Secondly but were it granted that these words This is the true God do depend on the foregoing words yet will it not of necessity follow that the Son not the Father is the Antecedent to the Relative this and so that the sentence must be thus understood This Son is the true God In the precedent words there is mention made of the Father And we know saith the Apostle that the Son of God is come i. e. We Believers assuredly know that the Son of God is already come in the flesh notwithstanding many at this time gain-say and deny it And hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and this Jesus Christ being in the bosome of the Father and having received from him the promise of the spirit hath anointed the eyes of our mindes that we might savingly know him that is true that is the true God as some Greek Copies have it And we are in him that is true c. If with Erasmus and Tindal we read the words thus and we are in him that is true through his Son Jesus Christ the meaning is this We have not only an apprehension of but also union and communion with him who is the true God by the means of his Son Jesus Christ But if we follow Piscator the words hold out that oneness and fellowship which the Saints have with the Father and his Son Jesus For thus he would have them read And we are in him that is true to with the Father and in his Son Iesus Christ But last of all if we consent with Hierome who by making 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a redundant hath them thus and we are in this true Son Iesus Christ they speak only of that oneness we have with Christ Now the words that follow relate to the Father This is the true God The Apostle intends the Father But because his assertion is contrary to many mens interpretation take for the backing of it these few Reasons 1. Because the Text will Grammatically bear it for the words may be thus rendred That is the true God and so the Antecedent to the Relative is not the Person immediatly foregoing which is Jesus Christ but another spoken of at a farther distance to wit the Father 2. Because Jesus Christ no where in the Scripture is called the true God and therefore is it the more questionable whether he be so called here the place being somewhat doubtful and ambiguous 3. Because the Father is called the true God distinct from the Son 1 Thess 1.9 10. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entring in we had unto you and how ye turned to God from Idols to serve the living and true God and to wait for his Son from Heaven whom he raised from the dead even Iesus which delivered us from the wrath to come It is evident from this Text that the Father distinct from the Son is called the living and true God and therefore is it probable that in the Text under Examination the Father onely is intended in this expression this is the true God 4. Because the Father is called the onely true God John 17.3 And this is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God and whom thou hast sent Iesus Christ Here the Father is called the onely true God and so the Son is excluded from being the true God and therefore of necessity in 1 Iohn 5.20 The Father onely is intended THe Text which comes next to be scanned Ier. 23 6. is Ier. 23.6 And this is his name whereby he shall be called The Lord our Righteousness Hence is gathered that Iesus Christ is the most High God because the incommunicable name Jehovah is attributed to him Answ First that it is a probable conjecture that our English Translators saw not this Mystery wrapt up in the name Jehovah In that they do not here follow their usuall custome in giving the Hebrew name for they read not Jehovah but the Lord our righteousness Yea that the Apostles themselves were ignorant of the use where unto the name Jehovah is put by you and others For though we have in the New Testament Hebrew names yet Jehovah appears not there but in stead thereof 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lord which is a common name Against this you once objected That the name Iehovah cannot be exprest in the Greek language But to me this seems not true for there is no letter in Iehovah which the Greeks want but may be found in other names which in the New Testament are rendred in imitation of the Hebrew as Iacob Abraham David And it cannot but seem strange that that name which cannot as you say be expressed in the Greek language by which the Old and New Testament was published to the greatest part of the world should be a foundation for that which you call a truth fundamental Secondly that it is not an undeniable consequent that Jesus Christ is the Most High God because called Iehovah for although the name may most properly belong to the most High God yet 't is communicated in the Scripture unto creatures To Angels frequently Gen. 19.24 Then Iehovah rained upon Sodom and Gomorrha brimstone and fire from Iehovah out of Heaven That is the Angel which did sustain the name of Iehovah he rained c. If credit may be given to some the title Iehovah is in this of Ieremiah appropriated to the people of Israel and Iudah They read the words thus and this is the name which they shall call it to wit the people Iehovah our righteousness that is God hath done well for us In Ier. 33.16 the people of Ierusalem and Iudah in the letter but according to a Mysticall sense the Church of Christ is called Iehovah our righteousness

another The Spirit of the Lord was upon him because he had anointed him to preach the Gospel to the poor c. Luke 4.18 Secondly His sufficiency to effect Miracles was from another The testimony that Christ gives of himself we may without scruple receive The Son saith he can do nothing of himself John 5.19 he was Gods instrument in the Miracles wrought by him Acts 2.22 Yee men of Israel saith Peter hear these words Iesus of Nazareth a man approved of God among you by Miracles Wonders and Signes which God did by him in the midst of you as yee your selves also know c. So that God the Father was the Principall Agent in all these Miracles which Christ wrought or effected which is farther confirmed by Christs saying Iohn 14.10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father and the Father in me The words that I speak unto you I speak not of my self but the Father that dwelleth in me He doth the Work In that the power by which Christ did work was the power of God as is manifest from Matth. 12.28 But if I saith Christ in Gods Spirit so in the Original cast out Devils Then is the kingdome of God come unto you By Gods Spirit we are not here to understand the Holy Ghost but the Power of God which was present with Christ for his assistance as will manifestly appear by comparing with this Text Luke 11.20 where the same speech is thus represented But if I in or by Gods finger cast out Devils doubtless the Kingdome of God is come unto you The finger of Gods power manifested in operation as in Exod. 8.19 the like phrase in the like sense is used And therefore Christ is said to do Miracles not because he was God but because God was with him Acts 10.38 He did his Miracles in his Fathers name John 10.25 When the Jews desired Christ to tell them plainly whether he were the Christ the text tells us that Jesus answered thus I told you and yee believed not The works that I do in my Fathers Name they bear witness of me Whereby Christ owned the Fathers Authority over him and acknowledged that his power to work was from him As the Apostles did in reference to Christ by doing miracles in his name Ast. 3.6 The works Christ did the Father gave him to finish that they might beare witness not that he was God but that the Father sent him Jo. 5.36 But I have greater witness saith Christ then that of John for the works which the Father hath given me to finish the same works that I do bear witnes of me that the Father hath sent me And the Rise of all was not his merits but the Fathers Love John 5.20 Thirdly His sufficiency to bestow the spirit was from another The spirit is principally from the Father wherefore Christ prayed to the Father for it Iohn 14.16 And the Father sent the Spirit in Christs name Iohn 14.26 And Christ having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost shed it forth upon his Disciples Acts 2.33 Fourthly and Lastly to name no more Christs sufficiency to quicken the dead is from another John 5.21 comp with the 26 v. The Son quickneth the dead but it is given to him to have life in himself Now why may not this Conclusion therefore whole Christ is a creature appear with boldness being usher'd in with so strong a guard as the precedent Argument is The fourth Argument which drives on the same designe now puts forth its hands to the work Argum. 4 He that acteth in obedience to another is a creature But whole Christ acteth in obedience to another Christ is the Head of the Church but God is the Head of Christ 1 Cor. 11.3 The Father is the God and Father of our Lord Iesus Christ Christ is called Gods Servant Esay 42.1 And is said to be sent of the Father Iohn 10.36 Now the Master is greater then the Servant and he that sends then he that is sent Iohn 13.16 He came in his Fathers name Iohn 5.43 He came into the world to do the will of God Heb. 10.7 Lo I come to do thy will O God He himself was not this God but the Father was this God whose will Christ came to do For he came not to do his will but the Fathers Iohn 6.38 39. I came down from Heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him that sent me and this is the Fathers will which hath sent me that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing c. The Authority and Directory of Jesus Christ was the Fathers Commandment Iohn 12.49 50. I have not saith Christ spoken of my self but the Father which hath sent me he gave me a Commandment what I should say and what I should speak and I know that his Command ment is life everlasting Whatsoever I speak therefore even as the Father said untome so I speak Therefore whole Christ is a creature The Argument which at this time is appointed to bring up the rear witnesseth what hath been said by the former to wit That whole Christ is a creature He that acteth with dependance on another is a creature But whole Christ acteth with dependance on another Therefore whole Christ is a creature No man is so Independant in respect of sense and reason as to deny the Major Wherefore let us see whether Scripture which in no part thereof is an enemy unto Reason will vote for the Minor Argum. 5 That whole Christ acteth with dependance on another is made evident from his Petitions and Professions of which the Scripture is not silent 1. Let us take a view of Christs Petitions Christ prays to another and thereby shews his dependance on another In the work of our Redemption we shall finde Christ busie in the work of Prayer See that Prophecy of Christ which you have in the 22 Psalm and you will presently see the truth of the thing asserted Reflect your eyes on the 11 verse and there shall you hear Christ praying thus Be not far from me for trouble is near for there is none to help and so on to the 19 ver where again he doth breath forth the requests of his heart Be not far from me ô Lord ô my strength hast thee to help mee c. Adde to this Prophecy the Authour to the Hebrews testimony concerning its fulfilling Heb. 5.7 Who that is Christ in the days of his flesh when he had offered up Prayers and Supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death and was heard in that he feared So in his working of Miracles we finde him in the same work of Prayer Mark 7.34 and that to the Father as is clear from Iohn 11.41 42. 2. Now for Christs Professions Christ professeth that God is the object of his dependance Psal 16.1 Preserve me O God for in thee do I put my trust And he professeth that

stead of proof What have you learn'd to measure the knowledge of him who hath receiv'd the spirit without measure cannot he as man know in heaven what things are done in earth Who told you so None but the man Christ Jesus can intercede it being absurd to conceive that God can interede unlesse it might be conceived that God hath a Superiour Now if the man Christ Jesus doth intercede for his Church he knows her state and why he may not know the state of the Church by a communication of power from the Father notwithstanding he be not God and man in one Person is a riddle for the unfolding whereof I would willingly plow with your heifer Thus I take leave of your ninth Instance that I may visit the tenth which because it is of the same value and in that part which I would deny it already answerd'd in my reply to Matth. 28.20 whither I refer you I shall passe it by and be take my self to examine the eleventh which now follows ●●●●nce 11. If Christ be a meere creature then a meere creature is the Judge of the World which is against the Scritpure for the Judg of the World is God before whom Abraham stood in Gen. 18.25 When he pleaded for Sodom Rom. 2.5 6. tho day of judgment is called the day of Revelation of the righteous Judgement of God who will render to every man according to his words Answ Sir this Argument will speak out the midd of this Instance That Doctrine which makes a meer creature the judg of the world is against the Scripture Gen. 18.15 Rom. 2.5 6. But Christ is the judg of the world Therefore that doctrine which makes Christ a meer creature is against the Scripture To your Major take these Answers 1. That in a sense it is false for Christ shall judg the world But you will say he is not a meer creature But what say you to the Apostles were not they meer creatures but what will you say if I shal shew from the word that they shall be judges at the last day see Mat. 19.28 and you shall hear Christ telling Peter that they of the Apostles Who had followed him in the regeneration should sit upon 12 Thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel And are not all the Saints meer creatures Doubtless at that instant when you fram'd this Instance you had not in your mind what Paul speaks in 1 Cor. 6.2 3. Do ye not know saith he that the Saints shall judge world and if the world shall be judged by you are ye unworthy to judg the smallest matters Know ye not that we shall judge Angels 2. That in a sense it is true no creature can be as God is the judg of the world for God is Principal in the judgment being both the Alpha Omega of it deriving his power frō none being the original of al power Thus you may see that your Proposition is and is not true I pray for the future make distinctions where need requires Now for your Minor that Christ is the judge of the world Sure you take this for a granted truth that no proof is brought to confirm it I shall grant it What then Will your design of drawing up the Conclusion prosper nothing less For it hath been brought to light that meer creatures shall be Judges of the world Wherefore if you cannot from evident scriptures demonstrate this That Jesus Christ is Principall in judging the world deriving from none his power of judgment you will doe nothing to purpose But Sir that I may preserve you from such an endless labour I shalll ay down these Propositions which also will spoil your present Market Propos 1. That the most High God who is the worlds Principall judg will not immediately but by a Delegat judg the world In Acts 17.31 the Apostle tels us That God hath appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained whereof he hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead In Iohn 5.22 Christ thus speaks The Father judgeth no man but hath committed all Iudgment to the Son Christ must raign till all enemies are put under his feet and when all things shall be subdued to him then shall the Son also himself be subject to the Father that God may be all in all 1 Cor. 15.28 That Jesus Christ is a subordinate Judg in reference unto God the supream Judg but superintendent in reference to the Saints his assessors in judgment That Christ is not the supream Judg is evident from these Scriptures In Acts 10. Peter shews that the Apostles were commanded of God to preach unto the people and to testifie That Iesus Christ is ordained of God to be Iudg of quick and dead Christ when he comes shall be sent Acts 3.20 and shall come in the glory of the Father as Viceroy and Lord Deputy Mat. 16.27 The Father hath given him authority to execute Judgement Io. 5.27 And all that honour which shall be given to him shall be for the Fathers glory Phil. 2.11 J am now to deal with your last Jnstance which is like to deal as unkindly with you as the former If Christ be a meer creature Instance 12 then Prayer to him being now in Heaven is altogether vain and frivolous inasmuch as persons may cry loud long enough before Christ hear them at that distance but the Saints have been wont not onely to pray to God in Christs Name but to pray to Christ directly and immediatly in Acts 7.59 Rev. 22.20 Lord Iesus receive my spirit Come Lord Jesus Answ By the rule of the Gospel we are to pray to God or the Father in the Name of Christ Jesus You have nothing to countenance Prayer to Christ but the two Texts you mention Jf Stephen did pray directly to Jesus Christ his act might be warranted by the visible appearance of Chrise As Lot prayed to the Angel being visible That in the Revelation is no Prayer but an intimation of the Churches desire after Christs coming The like manner of speaking we have Rev. 6.16 which is no Prayer I cannot but look upon that as vain and frivolous which you set as the Walls and Bulwarks of your Argument If Christ were but a meer creature being in heaven we might cry loud and long enough before he could hear us I would only ask you this question whether Christ could not hear as far as Stephen could see Stephen could see from Earth to Heaven though he was but a man What will hinder the Man Christ from hearing as far Thus I have with much brevity though a considerable Volume might have been written concluded my answer to your Instances which are twelve in number after your own reckoning though they might have been fewer by many being branches one of another I have studied to forget your person and endevoured onely to discover the weakness of your arguing Whether I have done any thing to purpose I leave you to be Iudge when with sobriety and impartiality you are capable to examine And so in the midst of my many other occasions I have brought my whole Answer to a full period and have time to say no more but this that my desires are that the God of light and strength would be pleased to enlighten your eyes that you may rightly discern all things and so order your spirit that by modestliness you may breath forth truth in replying to him who is Sir yours whilst you are for the truth FINIS