how doest thou Are all thinges safe or well Or what thinge maketh the to go so pensyf and troublyd in thy mynde Ioiada As touchinge my selfe all thynges â—ewell thankes be vnto god But it greueth me that such greate dissencions and troubles are among Christen men And although suche debates and strifes be neither necessary nor profitable for any maner of thyng yet not withstondyng we dooe see the poore symple people to be on euery syde intangled with the errours of the Anababtistes I am bothe asshamed and sorie also that suche blyndnesse doeth reigne that men can not see what misfortune doeth folowe whersoeuer these anababtistes doe fixe or set their feate Surely it did behoue that thei shuld haue perceaued and espied such thynges after that thei were ones knowen to shunne them not toswarue as muche as the bredthe of a naile from the sure articles of the faithe Symon Tell me I praie y â— if thou art a good felow What harmes doe these men go about to doe for I dare saie and affirme that I haue not hetherto harde that thei haue gone about any thyng that doeth abhorre from truthe and honesty In the meane season I know that many thynges are imputed vnto them falsely moreouer that thei be accused and blamed in many thynges whiche thei dooe not knowlage them selues to be gylty in Ioia I dooe heare also that thine eies are blynded by suche men Which if I doe bothe heale and opeÌ„ vnto the thou wilt geue me thankes and remembre this benefyt Symon I can not vtterly blame this sorte of men for yet I haue not harde that thei haue done any abhomynable thyng Ioiada But I wil make it manyfeste vnto the. This secte dyd vtterly subuerte the whole citie of Waltzhountum and did cause many of the cytezens whyche were bothe good and ryghtfull men to bee exyled and to be put from their possessions Wherfore the gospell whiche dyd florysshe godly there was also outrageously extynguysshed The whiche thyng dyd almoste chaunce in a citee called Vormantia There were Anababtystes in Auguste in Basile and in Morania whiche did affyrmt that Christe was but a prophete saiyng that the vngodly persones whiche for theyr vngodlynesse were damned and the dyuelles also shulde enioye the heauenly blesse In a towne called Sanctogallus one of them did smite of his owne brothers heade the father of heauen as he sayed byddynge hym thus to dooe What abhominacion they dooe commytte vnder the pretence and colour of spirituall matrimony the townes and cittees that did oftentymes greuously punysshe them for suche wicked and abhominable factes dooe manifestly shewe and testifie And this no man can denay but that many of them do leaue and forsake their owne wyues and children yea all offyce and honesty beyng casted a syde dooe lyue feade and fatte them selues with other mens labours snortyng bothe daie and nyght moste slougardely And where as they bee wholely gyuen to so foule and detestable sensualytee they dooe interprete it to be the commaundemente of the heauenly father persuadyng to women and honeste matrones that it is impossible for them to be partakerres of the kyngdome of heaueÌ„ excepte thei doe abhominabli prostitute and make common theire owne bodies to all men sithe that it is wrytten that we muste forsake and renounce to all thynges y â— we loue best and that we ought to suffer all kyndes of infamie or reproche for Christsake besyde that that y e publicans and harlottes shall be preferred to the ryghtwes in the kyngdome of heauen There is no ende nor measure of ther infydelitie and falshod of their liyng and sedition with the which vices these disobedient persons are on euery syde infectyd Are these my Symon and other muche greuoser which I dooe passe ouer here for the nones to be callyd vertues Dooe they seme vnto y e yet to haue done no vnhonest acte Or canste thou denaye but that thei haue done these thiÌ„ges Symon Truly many thinges are ascribed vnto them falsely and the fame or voyce of the people dooeth alwayes adde somwhat vnto it Ioiada That which is sayed hetherto maye be prouyd by sealed letters and with sure and infalible witnesses I haue here wittingly passed ouer theyr abhominable crimes and haue sayed a greate deale lesse than they haue done them selues Therfore it greauith me the more that men are so blynde that they can not perceiue nor ponder in their hertes suche thynges But rather that a greate sorte of men dooe embrace those erroneous felowes and rennegates eauen as yf they ware fallen or sent doone from heauen and were saintes amonge mortall men whiche should preache none other but godly heaueÌ„ly thinges Where as thei doe passe in filthy liuing the Nicolantes and Valentynians Symon These thiÌ„ges haue ben hetherto vnknowen vnto me And I suppose that they be not all pollutyd with those filthye abhominationes But what skyllithe to them y t are good what fewe among theÌ„ Dooe committe In the hollie nuÌ„bre of the apostelles Iudas was a traytour and yet neuerthelesse was callyd an apostyll Which I suppose coulde not hurte the other Moreouer thei teache so excellente and godly thynges of god of shunninge synnes that I can not perceaue y t they be so wycked and lewde Whan they are takeÌ„ they praise and laude god they gyue thankes whan they are put to death they doe constantly endure and susteyne dyeng gladly and wyllynglie This thou canste not denaye my Ioiada wherfore I wolde gladly that thou haddest hard them as I haue Ioiada I coulde paraduenture bringe here fewe thynges agaynste the excepte I knowe well alredye all this sorte of men and that a greate whyle a go But I am not ingnoraunte howe muche hipocrisye can preuayle by the meanes of fraude and deceate And as touchynge thyne answere thou sayest very well in that that is to wyt that the wycked facte of fewe shall not harme the innocent But thou haste not yet proued that the cause of the Anababtistes is iust and good Nor thou canste not shewe one amonge them whiche is not commaculate and infected with some of these said vices I meane lyenge falshode periurie disobedience sedicion idelnes forsakynge of their wiues and chyldren turpitude And though all these vices doe not sticke or cleaue to them al at ones yet not withstandyng are they euery chone pollutid with some of them That in the mean season I should speake nothyng of their heresie and sectes of their pertinacie of their false erroneous doctriÌ„e And because thou saiest that thei speake muche of god I wolde faine know of the whether thei y t doe preache the gospell doe not speake of god also Symon This thei doe greatly denaie Ioia In this thyng truely thei do wrong and iniury to the preachers of the gospell testifiyng the contrary to the vniuersall chyrche that is to saie denaiyng that by the gospel truely and syncerely preached the people is taught to put their truste in the onely and
kyngdome of heauen where no vncleane thing entreth it foloweth that our synnes are forgyuen vs. Sy. I do not denay but that we were ones all synners that those synnes were ones forgyuen vs by Chryste But I will saie this that after that the synnes which we committed before thorow ignoraÌ„cye be ones thorow the grace of God forgyuen vs and so bee receaued by the free gyfte and goodnesse of Christ in to y â— numbre of the chyldren of god that then we be pure holy and clene and that we ought to synne no more and that if we synne wittyngly after that we haue ones knowen receaued the grace such sinne is not forgiuen Io. But thou mightest sufficiently vnderstand by the places afore aledged â–ª that we be yet sinners styll after that we haue knowen the truthe and that those sinnes which we do daily commit as long as we ar in Christ â—e daily forgyuen vnto vs. For Chryste saieth that his disciples are all cleane but neuerthelesse that thei haue neade to washe their fete And again the father dooeth make cleane the bowghes that doo bring forth fruite in Christe If thei dooe bryng forth fruit thei do bring forth fruite in faith and in the knowen truthe for without faith it is impossible that any man shulde please God what so euer is without faith is siÌ„ne and not fruit If thei be made cleane thei haue some filthines in the knowen truthe Els thei shulde be cleane and shuld nede no clensynge or purgynge But sith that thei be made clene the filthinesses that thei do gather in bringyng forth fruit ar forgeuen and washed awaie Neither Pelagius nor Nouatus nor none of the Anababtistes is able to withstand this veritee Sy. I am not farre frome this opinion yet notwithstanding had I leuer to heare plain scriptures that a man maie come to grace as often as he synneth Io. And that can I shew vnto the besyde the fore aleged places The lorde speaketh thus by Ezechiell When the vngodly shall turne from y â— vngodlines that he hath done doeth iudgement rightwisnesse he shall get life vnto his soule Is the death of y e vngodly a pleasure vnto me saieth y â— lorde and not rather that he turne from his waies and liue Turne and repent from al your iniquitees and your iniquitee shall not hurt you In the .ii. of Ioel. Turne to y e lord your god saieth he for he is gentill and piteful he is pacient of great mercifulnes repenteth vpon y â— plage y t he had threatened Sy That whiche thou hast aleged is to be vnderstanded of the vngodly of y â— remission of sinnes y t is graunted vnto them that neuer knew god neuer beleued in him Io. I wold y â— thou shuldest loke better vpon y â— wordes of Ezechiell thou shuldest se y t he speaketh these woordes to y â— children of Israell whiche were the chosen people of god Moreouer considre with what ende he dooeth conclude this chapiter Why shoulde ye dye saieth he o ye house of Israel I wyll not the death of a sinner but y â— hereturn lyue Or canst thou returne to hym with whoÌ„ thou wast neuer before Sy. No but I doo come to hym and do not returne but with whom I was afore and from whome I was gone to hym doo I return againe Ioi Ergo it foloweth that they which are exhorted by the prophete to returne to god were somtymes with god If thei were sometymes with god ergo this is not the fyrste sinne that thei did committe afore that thei knew the truthe but it was the synne that thei committed after that thei knew the truthe and had faith We haue proued I thynke that the synnes that we coÌ„mit after the knowledge of the truth are forgeuen by God In the .xxiiii. of the Prouerbes it is written that a rightwyse man falleth vii tymes in the day ryseth a gayne but that the vngodly do fall to their vtter dampnacion Here thou hast a manifest and a playne difference betwexte the godly the vngodly or betwixt the faithfull infidell The vngodly after that he is come in to the bothomlesse pitte of vngodlynesse dothe contempne remayneth in synne to the last ende with dispayre A godlye man is not he that synneth not but he which falling .vii. tymes in the day doth not continew in synne but ryseth agayne With this place are the Palagians Nouatians and Anababtistes confounded conuicted Adde vnto these the .xviii. of Mat. the .xvii. of Luke where Christ doth plainly say If thy brother dothe trespasse agaynst the rebuke him betwixte the and him alone if he be sori for his offence or repenteth forgeue thou him And if he .vii. tymes in the day dothe offende the .vii. tymes in the day cometh to the saiyng I am sory for myne offeÌ„ce thou shalt forgeue him Sy. But he doth not saye that he wyll forgeue vs our synnes Ioia Canst thou pray or say thy Pater noster Sy. yeas Ioia Doest thou not thou pray this Forgeue vs our trespasses as wee forgeue them that trespasse against vs Vnto these woordes dothe the Lord adde by and by in the .vi. chapiter of Mathew If ye doo forgeue vnto men their fautes your father that is in heauen shall forgeue you also Seyng therfore that wee doo forgeue vnto oure brethren daily it foloweth that the father of heaueÌ„ forgeueth vs also daily Do not the saintes or holy men pray so and that euery day Nowe I aske the whether they do lye before God praiyng thus or not S. They do not lye Io. If they do not lye it foloweth that thei haue in them selfe trespasse and synnes If so be that synne as thou thynkest is not forgeuen whye dyd Christe teache vs to prai so forgeue vs our trespas Is not this an abhominable thyng that any man whiche knoweth not what he dooeth praye shoulde take vpon hym not only to be a teacher but also to teache that whiche repugueth against y e manifest truth and prayers of the Sayntes But what thynkest thou of Peter was he a faithfull ChristeÌ„ man elected of God or not Sy. He was not a faithful Christen man afore his falle els he wolde not haue denyed Christ Ioi If he had ben an infidel to what intent were these wordes spokeÌ„ mat xvi Thou artchrist the son of the lyuyng god Are these the wordes of an infidell And agayne if Peter had ben an infidell or hipocrite when he dyd make suche a godly confession Christ would not haue sayde Thou art blessed SymoÌ„ Flesh and blood hath not reuelated this thynge vnto the but my father which is in heauen The LORDE prayseth not hipocrites and infidels but abhorreth hateth them Mat. vi and .xxiii. He would not haue said vnto him he that is washed hath no neale but to washe his feete And agayne Peter I haue prayed for thee that thy faith do not faile or slake Rede
reiected as false deceitful But whan ye speake of the spirite ye doe vnderstond a bare creature For your spirit is not the holy ghost but a carnall affection Sy. Ye dooe yet without any scriptures of the Bible enhaunce and magnifie the letter Io. Not so but rather we here ground ourselues bothe vpon y e scriptures of god and vpon examples Sy. Shew therfore y t the truthe muste be tryed by the scriptures not rather w t a fre spirit without scriptures Io. By thy wordes doe I perceine what thinge doeth begile you that is y t ye do seuer these .ii. thinges beyng vnited inuisebly knitted together y t is to saie the spirite the scriptures which can nor ought to be separated asunder the one from y e other For whē we name y e scriptures we doe vnderstande y e expressed worde of y t spirit For as y e voice or sound of y e worde can in no wise be separated from y e lyuely breth of y e liuing creature So y e scriptures can not be diuided from y e spirit y t inspireth thē for y e scripture is y e expressed wil of god but now wil I bryng y e testimonies places w t thou requirest our lord Iesu Christ vnto whom y e heuēly father did geue witnes from heuen who hath receiued the holy ghost after no measure did not despise y e sciptures in so muche that he dyd corroborate all his saiynges by them onely and did commaund that the Iewes should trye both his woordes and factes by the scriptures Ihon. v. and Luke xvi He biddeth them to lyfte vp their eyes to Moyses the prophetes and not to apparaunte spirites He reprouyng also the Saduceis did shewe that this was the cause of their errour be cause that they were ignoraunt in scriptures or neglected them Mark .xii. The Apostles as we may vnderstand by the booke of the Actes did receiue abundātly in the beginyng the holy gost that by a sertaine visible tokē And yet not withstandyng did thei not therfore forsake or contēne y e scriptures nor boste their spirite against thē But rather did proue strengthen all their sermons with the worde of god preachyng nothyng els but the pure and playne scriptures These thynges are euydently proued by the epistels of Peter Iohn doeth plainely shewe and teache that the spirites owght to be tried whether thei bee of god or not .i. Io. iiii Wherby it is euydent enowgh that spirites owght to be tried and that thei be not so free as the Anahabtistes will haue them And how thei muste bee proued it is manifestly declared in y t place Paule whiche was rauisshed in to the thyrde heauen and dyd learne his gospel of Iesu Christ beyng hym selfe the chosen vessel of god full of the holy ghost and heauenly wisedome neuer the lesse before the kyng Agrippa he doeth testify that he dyd teache nothyng beside Moises and the prophetes Act. xxvi In the epistell to the Galathians y e first chapter he saieth thus if I or an angel of heauen shulde preach vnto you any other thīg then ye haue harde let it be anathema or acursed He also warnyng and teachyng Tymothe that be shoulde beware of false and erroneous doctrines dyd directe and sende hym to the redyng of scriptures But reade thou the iii. chapiter of the seconde epistell to Tymothe and it shall appere what we owght to iudge and thynke of the Anababtistes secte what of the spirite and of the scriptures Sy. That place is knowen well enowghe and I am almost persuaded But this vexed my mynde that Paule saieth that a spirituall man iudgeth all thynges but he is iudged of no body Ioiada I longe to knowe of the of what spirite Paule doeth speake there Symon But I haue leauer to heare it of the Ioiada Considre the woordes y t go before For he saieth thus We haue not receiued the spirit of the world but the spirit whiche is of god that we may know what thynges haue ben geuen vnto vs by Chryst Symon But to what purpose did Paul speke here of the holy ghost Ioiada I aske of the wheather y t same selfe spirite dyd not inspyre the scriptures Symon Truely that same selfe spirite Ioiada Seyng therfore that it is all one and bothe the same spirite that Paule speaketh of here and that whiche speaketh in the scriptures haue I not proued that Paule by a spirituall man did not vnderstond hym which boasteth I can not tell what spirite despisyng in the meane season the scriptures but suche a spirituall man as is and will be ruled and gouerned by the holy ghost that waie that he sheweth and expresseth hym selfe in the holy scriptures He therfore that striueth againste the holy scripture and inspiracyon of the holy ghost can not bee that spirituall man whome Paule doeth speke of Now if he be not spirituall he can not iudge but he muste be iudged The Anababtistes therfore can iudge nothyng but ought to bee iudged and tryed by the worde of god Hathe not here the spirite of the Anababtistes lost bothe his win ges But I do remembre other ii places whiche dooe vtterly stoppe the mouthes of the Catababtistes The first is in the .x. chapiter of the Actes touchyng Cornelius the centurion which although he was elected by god yet not withstandyng beyng so tawght by the angell did sende messangers to fetche Peter y t he migh heare by hym the preachīg of our sauiour Iesu christ If that the spirite should disanulle and abolisshe the scriptures it shulde folow y t this outwarde preachyng and such like thinges wer done in vaine The other is in the .xvi. chapiter concernyng the Thessaloniens whiche after that thei had harde the preachyng of Paule dyd daily seke and serche the scriptures to knowe wheather Paule dyd teache true or not Which thing thei wolde not haue done if the spirites shoulde not be tried by the scriptures wherefore what so euer the Anababtistes dooe teache concernyng this thynge is false and erroneous and not vnlike vnto the errour of Montanus Sym. What monstruous thyng is y t Ioiada This Montanus about .xiii. hundred yeres a go was a great heretike who did almost speake of the spirite as the Anababtistes dooe For thei do cal in again the old abolisshed errours as it shall appere hereafter Sym. Go forth I praie y e and let vs discusse the argumentes of the second conclusion For I can not beleue that none of the saynttes whiche thyng thou doest affirme stifly did thruste them selues into the office of common preachers excepte thei were called What other thyng is this but as the bisshop of Rome hath done in times paste to hyde the truthe frome the commons that none saue onely thei that are learned dare speake and talke of it Where as not withstandynge god did manifest him self to the littell ones and not to the wise Mathew xi Ioiada I will doe it
without scriptures Ioiada I wyll proue all that I haue saied by the worde of god A littell afore that Chryste did departe from his apostels he did sende them vnto the worlde to preache the gospel vnto all cretures but before y t thei shoulde take in honde this offyce they shulde tary a while in Nierusalem till they were endued with grace frome aboue For he dyd promise vnto them to sende the promised spirit and comfort our of the father vpon them And after that thei had ones receiued the holy ghost with it thei did receiue the knowlage of all sciences speches tongues Luc. xxiiii Act. ii whan Moises dyd draw backe and did bryng many excuses knowledgyng hym selfe to bee without vtterance vneloquent chyldisshe and vnmete for that offyce that god woulde haue sent hym to the lord did promise that he would be in his mouth as he dyd also promise to his apostelles suche mouth and wisedome that no man shoulde bee able to resyste agaynste it Mathew .x. Paule writynge to Tymothe and Titus concernyng the election of bysshoppes requireth such one as is apte to teache able to exhorte with wholsome doctrine whyche can reuycte and confounde them that resyste and withsaie the truthe .i. Timothe iii. Titus .i. There Paule doeth forbydde that none of them whyche were newly conuerted shoulde be admitted to the office of a preacher Netherto haue I brought places and testimonies out of the scriptures touchyng the learnyng that ought to be in an ouerseer or bysshop Now shall we heare what the scriptures doe testifie and witnesse concernyng the miracles of them that are sent We dooe therfore alleage here the wonders that Moyses did shewe in Egypte and other innnmerable signes and tokens that bee written in the Actes the manifeste imposicion of handes and that thei dyd receiue the holy ghost visebly Moreouer that thei whiche be sent ought to be laufully elected and chosen by a common assent we dooe dryng the first chapiter of the Attes vpon the election of Mathias the vii and .xiii. of the Actes vpon the election of Steuen Paule and Barnabas The .xiii. chap. also of the Actes doeth manifestly shewe that Paule and Barnabas when thei had created thorow all the churches by a generall election priestes or seniours laiyng their handes vpon them and had made theyr praiers with fastyng did committe them vnto the lorde in whome thei had beleued Now thou seest my Symon that in y ◠times of the Apostels euery man dyd not rasshely aduaunce nor sette for the hym selfe to preache For if it hadde ben so what shoulde haue neaded any election and imposicion of handes But election was made after praiers fastyng The same is also written in the epistell to Titus Sy. What if thou fyndest all such thynges among the Anababtistes Io. Not y ◠lesse iote of al y ◠aboue rehersed thīges ergo thei are not sēt by god but sēsualitee and ipmpudent boldenesse dyd impell moue them For what myracles doe thei except these are to be called miracles that they with their pernicious doctrine dooe brynge men out of their right and godly minde in to starke madnesse or that thei make the gammons and legges of bakon hangynge in the larders of the symple and poore people inuisible What learnynge should we loke for where rudenes and as thei do speake themselues simplicitee is taken for hyghe rudicion I dooe passe ouer here many of them whiche can scarcely reade yea and what wyll ye saie of them y ◠can reade no maner of thyng Are not these y ◠neophites by y ◠neophites I meane not onely them that are newly conuerted but such as doe lacke learnyng that Paule do reiecte But thei promote them that by all their lyues tyme did neuer reade the Bybles hauyng onely in readinesse certaine sentences not vnderstonded which beyng either plucked out of al partes of scripture or stolen or els borowed of their gydes leaders thei dooe wrethe wrast turne to contencion w t all maledicence reuilyng And so stondyng among the simple people haue alwais in their tonges endes y ◠father of heauen and the spirite What name my Symon maie conueniently be geuen vnto them I maie not call them apostels for thei are not sent by god Again thei do not preache wher nothīn hath ben yet preached of god but where y ◠people hath ben a long season with the great labour of the true and faithfull ministers taught the waie of truthe there doe thei breake in destroiyng peruertyng as a storme or tempest stirryng vp all thinges makyng the commons so perplexed and doubtfull that thei know neither ende nor begynnyng If any man shoulde call them prophetes and expositours of the scriptures it were none other thyng but to call a filthy swine an excellent cunning Musician For thei are ignorant in al maner of tongues in so muche that thei doe contemne them being content with y ◠vulgare tongue onely If thou callest thē doctours they know nothynge lesse than the right waie and trade of teachyng Besides that thei want the truthe whiche is chiefly required in a teacher But paraduenture thei will be called bishops and sheapherdes Why do y ◠lacke then al suche excellent giftes as Paule requireth in a teacher or bishop In so much that thei be vnlearned striuers contencious and rude neophites Briefly they haue nothyng that perteine to y ◠office of a teacher Wherby any man maie perceiue that the Anababtistes are suche as doe send them selues beyng perplexed sedicious debatefull ambitious heretykes Sy. Thei be bothe chosen and sent Ioi By whome Sy. By their church Moreouer one brother dooeth lai his hand vpō y ◠other geuing hym ful power autoritee Io. This sendyng election maketh me to remēbre y ◠bishop of Rome for after that the bisshop of Rome dyd ones get pourchasse vnto hym selfe thorowgh disobedience tirannie and pernicious crafte suche great power by and by dyd he promote to bisshoprykes euery mule keper bawdes and blody souldyours ▪ But who did teache them to seuer and diuide the churche beynge vnited and glued with faithe and charitee seynge that there is but one God one faythe one babtyme and one churche Who hathe sent the authours of this secte to make and congregate a new churche Truely amulacion enuy strife contencion auaryce ambicion and stiffe pertinacy I could wel and sufficiently proue all these thynges except I shoulde here wittyngly spare some people Their Churche therfore is not the Churche of God but a certayne secte and congregacion of styffenecked and disobedient people among whom there is no more iust election then is in the company of rebelles traytours whiche forsakyng their owne prince or gouernour doo retchely without aduisement chuse thys man or that man to be their Capitayne But let vs graunt that it is a Church yet not withstandyng they erre in election whiche is not vsed among them