Linguistic DNA - Concept Modelling Demonstrator

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
heaven_n	father_n	house_n	mansion_n	1,843	5	11.4237	5	false

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14408	Acts of the dispute and conference holden at Paris, in the moneths of Iuly and August. 1566. Betweene two doctors of Sorbon, and two ministers of the Reformed Church A most excellent tract, wherein the learned may take pleasure, and the ignorant reape knowledge. Translated out of French by Iohn Golburne, and diuided according to the daies.; Actes de la dispute & conference tenue à Paris. English.	Golburne, John.; Vigor, Simon, d. 1575.; Sainctes, Claude de, 1525-1591.; Du Rosier, Hugues Sureau.; L'Espine, Jean de, ca. 1506-1597.	1602 (1602)	STC 24727; ESTC S119134	189,279	272

there is diuersitie betweene the creatures and Creator and that the Creator by nature is euery where and naturally the creatures be not in diuers places the Doctors reuerently imbrace the authoritie of the holy Fathers But to produce the said places for coÌ„firmation of a thing so well knowne and not doubted of their trauell was now needlesse But the Doctors yet attend one sole place of the scripture or one sole testimony of the auncient Fathers which saith That God cannot make one body to be in diuers places The Doctors pray the Ministers that with like reuerence they receiue the auncient Fathers chiefly touching the interpretation of holy scriptures whose exposition as are the places aboue cyted shal be agreed vpon betweene them and the Ministers Vpon request made to the Lord Neuers on the behalfe of the Ministers that hee would please to assigne a day for answere particularly to all and euery article and slaunders here aboue proposed by the Doctors in their obiection The said Lord ordained that the Ministers should carry with them that euening one of the Copies of the Doctors obiections against them to be ready the next morrow by noone to answer thervnto which the Doctors agreed vnto And made likewise request to the said Lord of Neuers to haue leaue if it so seemed them good to reply to the answers that the Ministers should make And therwith to deliuer their resolution touching this article of the omnipotency of God To th' end to proceed and examine the reall truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar Whervnto the Ministers added that they also for their parts would deliuer a briefe resolution of all that which shall be deduced by them The company assembled on the morrow beeing Wednesday the 17. of Iuly My Lord of Neuers considering that the Doctors the day before had imployed all the time without any left for the Ministers to make present answere to them supposed no lesse time would be needfull for the Ministers to answerefully which had bene a thing tedious and irksome For this cause and others by him declared he ordained they should thenceforth speake by writing And that the Ministers should carry with them the Copie which was giuen them to make answere therevnto and to send it vnto him signed by them and two Notaries Of which he would cause a Copie to be written by his Secretary to giue it to the Doctors reseruing the Originall to himselfe And in like sort would he keepe for the Ministers the Copie of that which the Doctors should send him Wherevnto both parts submitting themselues they disputed afterwards by writing as followeth The Answere of the Ministers to the Obiections of the Doctors giuen on Tuesday the 16. of Iuly 1566. THe Ministers deny that the consequence proposed by the Doctors to wit God cannot make one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant Therfore â—e is not omnipotent is necessary For as much as the omnipotency of God ought not to be measured but by the things only which be agreeable to his will and are not derogate either to his nature or to his wisdome or to his truth or to the order he established in the world Vnto which that directly repugneth which the Doctors set forth that one selfe same body at one selfe-same instant may be in diuers places For it would follow that a body should be a body without being limitted And by consequence that it should be and not be altogither For the measures as to be long large thicke and to be bounded limitted with certaine bounds are so essentiall to a body that without that it is no more a body And so farre of is it that the Ministers in so saying do diminish the omnipotency of God that contrariwise they establish the same and will not attribute to him any mutabilitie and chaunge in his counsaile nor any contradiction in his will for feare to make him lye which by the scripture is impossible to him And where the Doctors alledge froÌ„ the Fathers that they haue not denied the omnipotency of God The Ministers haue heretofore shewed that they haue and in what case it may happen Tertullian in his booke written against Praxeas speaking of this matter saith as followeth Surely nothing is hard vnto God But if without iudgemeÌ„t we wil vse this sentence and interpret it according to our foolish fantasie we may faine all things to be of God and say that he hath done them because he can do them Now must it not be beleeued because he can do all things that therfore he hath done what he hath not done but enquired whether he hath done it And finally concludeth that the power of God is his wil and his inhabilitie likewise his vnwillingnesse The Doctors then to shew that he can do it should declare that God hath willed to make a body which at one selfe-same instant hath bin in diuers places And a maruellous thing it is that they impute to the Ministers that they derogate from the omnipotency of God when as they do except froÌ„ the same what is contrary to his wil seeing they themselues do confesse it and except the same things And that there is no other difference between theÌ„ the Ministers but that they say that God maketh one body to be in diuers places at one selfe instaÌ„t because he can do it And the Ministers say that he doth it not and cannot do it because he wil not do it For as much as is said according to Tertullian the power of god is his wil. Touching the reason that the Doctors do alledge in Phisosophie to proue that a bodie for being a bodie doth not therfore leaue to be in diuers places The Ministers say they suppose a falshood To wit that quantitie is accidentall and not essentiall to a body For that to wit that a body is measured bounded and circumscript is in such sort of it essence that without that it is no more a bodie As S. Augustine him selfe speaking of the glorified body of Iesus Christ saith That if space be taken away from a body there is no more place where it might be and by consequence being no part is no more at all The reaso of Philosophie they propose touching the first heauen as that it is not in any place The Ministers do denie it for to speake according to the language of the scripture it must be confessed that there is place eâ—en aboue the heauens As Iesus Christ said vnto his Disciples I go to prepare a place for you And in the same place In my Fathers house there are many mansions And else where Where I am taking the present time for the future there shal my seruants be In the which sentence must be obserued that there be aduerbes of place And S. Augustine writing to Dardanus expresly saith That it behoueth that the body of Iesus Christ be in some place in heaueÌ„ because it is a true

may brag and vsurpe to haue this spirit particularly promised vnto him And as touching the particular inspiration of Esay it was not founded on his onely fancie and presumption but on the assurance that God gaue him by a worke supernaturall as is said in the 6. Chapter And further it was not yet sufficiently founded to bee beleeued as hauing inspiration had he not shewed the same by other effects and by other Prophesies already come to passe As it behooueth euery Prophet should doo before he were beleeued But leauing all those things as farre fetched and from the first proposition I referre the iudgement as before Answere There is not one of the Church if he be a ture member therof vnto whom the spirit of God is not communicated As S. Paul and S. Iohn in his first Catholique Epistle teacheth And as touching the pretended presumption there is great difference betweene the presumption and imaginations of the spirit of man which is but darkenesse and of it selfe knoweth nothing of the thing of God and the reuelations of the holy Ghost which are certaine and assured And where it is said that the answeres are farre off from the first proposition if it be so the demaâ—nds are so also Obiection The conclusion is if each one ought to be beleeued in saying hee hath a particular reuelation of the holy Ghost without otherwise shewing that they are holy Scriptures and that there is difference amongst them let euery one iudge if the demands and answeres be pertinent to this difficultie or no. And forasmuch as some of the newe doctrine doo shew no proofe more then others of their particular inspirations whether the one ought to be more beleeued then the other concerning the same Answere By the former answeres it hath beene declared how the reuelations pretended by particular persons ought to be examined by the meanes by which men may iudge whether they be of the spirit of God or no. Then spake Doctor Vigor saying that in the discourse aforesaid he had vnderstood many sayings contained in the answers of the Minister which were against the word of God as when he said that it behooueth first to honour the Sonne before the father Which the said Vigor reproouing the said Spyna maintained that thing to bee true affirming such proposition to be grounded and contained in the holy Scripture as in the Gospel and first Catholique Epistle of S. Iohn Vnto which Vigor replyed that in the said places the word First is not found Neuertheles least he fall on that which hath beene put forth and proposed in the beginning of the conference he wil not now enter into the confutation of that saying reseruing it to the end of all the conferences Answere The said Spyna required that Vigor should quote the places of the Scripture which hee pretended to bee contrarie to that was contained in his answere And where it is said that it first behoueth to glorifie the Sonne before the Father according as it is written in the places aboue noted for confirmation of his saying hee proposeth this reason founded on the Scripture We cannot know the Father if we haue not knowne the Sonne Wee cannot glorifie the Father if we haue not knowne him Therefore it followeth that the knowledge and glory of the Sonne is a degree to come to the knowledge and glory of the father which being referred by the said Vigor to be more amply handled in the end and conclusion of all the conference the said Spyna is so contented Obiection The sayd Vigor without wading further in this dispute obiecteth that by the same reason alledged by the said De Spyna It followeth that it first behooueth to honour the Father before the Sonne for by the Father wee come to the knowledge of the Sonne as it appeareth by that which our Lord sayd to Saint Peter Caro sanguis non reuelauit tibi sed pater meus qui in Coelis est Flesh and blood hath not reuealed this vnto thee but my Father which is in the heauens Where it is manifest that the heanenly Father did reueale to Saint Peter that our Lord was the Sonne of the liuing God Whereupon the sayd Vigor doeth thus argue If the reason of the sayd De Spyna bee good by the Father wee know the Sonne it behooueth then to honour the Father before the Sonne Answere To follow the order of the knowledge we may haue of Iesus Christ and of his Father proposed vnto vs in S. Iohn It behooueth to beginne by the Sonne and from the Sonne to come to the Father For Saint Phillip hauing once required that hee would shew vnto him and his other companions his Father hee said vnto him Phillip hee that hath seene me he hath seene my Father To teach them that the meane to come to the knowledge of the Father is the precedent knowledge of the Sonne which may bee also confirmed by that which is else where written where Iesus Christ saieth That no man knoweth the Father but the Sonne onely and hee to whom the Sonne will reueale him And to answere the authoritie of Saint Matthew alledged by the sayd Vigor the sayd De Spyna sayeth that in the text by him produced there is no mention made of the knowledge of the Father nor of the meane to come vnto it But onely of the reuelation made by the grace of GOD and his holy Spirite vnto Saint Peter and his other fellowes to know IESVS CHRIST and the Father in him Whereupon Vigor sayde hee referred himselfe to the hearer and reader that his obiection is not answere dreseruing for another Conference to treat more amply of that point if hee will maintaine it least hee should fall vpon that which hath beene formerly proposed whereunto the sayd De Spyna answered that hee so agreed The sayde Vigor vpon an answere made by the sayde De Spina where hee putteth difference betweene the certaine reuelation made by the Lord to a particular person and the holy Scripture addeth that hee is abashed of the same answere considering that men beleeue not the holy Scripture But in that they are acertained that the Lord is authour thereof who cannot lye Then likewise that if a particular man haue assurance that the reuelation is made vnto him by the Lorde or else that one is assured of the reuelation made to another as much is hee bound to giue faith to the reuelation as to the Scripture The which saying also hee will not as hee may handle and declare at large but come presently to the first question which is not yet resolued And prayeth the sayd De Spina to set forward the same Answere Where the sayde Vigor is abashed that the sayde De Spina should say in one of his answeres That the reuelation of the Lord and the word were things different the same is befalne him for not well conceiuing the sence of the saying For De Spina will not put difference touching the certainty

his body to be locally in heauen and Sacramentally really neuerthelesse and substantially in the Sacrament of the Aultar Thus would the Doctors desire to heare the Ministers vpon this point and then afterwards to put their answere in writing And the Ministers shall neuer be able to shewe by the word of God that their faith can make at one instant and one selfe-same place a thing to be present and not present And one thing present and not present by faith is as much to say as that the body of Iesus Christ is in and not in a faithfull person And no Coduit pipe of the power of the holy Ghost should there also be needfull to conuey the flesh of Iesus Christ hither vnto vs from heauen were not the said flesh but in heauen and notwithstanding came vnto vs. And as touching the points obiected by the Doctors that Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza were the first which said that God could not make one body to bee in two places and the Ministers haue willed to confirme by antiquitie this new doctrine which they cannot name otherwise then blasphemie The Doctors say they haue often prayed the Ministers that time might be spared things better cleared to speake nothing from the purpose Notwithstanding they bring forthwith the testimonies of Fathers to shewe that a body by nature is circumscript and cannot be naturally in many places but those Authors say not that God cannot do it But S. Augustine and others in the places cyted by the Doctors touching the article of the closed doores do rather witnesse that two bodies by the power of God may occupie one selfe-same place which is of like difficultie And when they shall come to the proofe of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ they will euidently shewe that wholly all the auncient Fathers which haue spoken of that Sacrament haue not onely confessed that hee could make his body to bee aboue in heauen and here belowe in the Sacrament but all with one accord haue declared that they beleeue according to the word of Iesus Christ that he is in heauen and here in the Sacrament The Doctors demaund of the Ministers whether they haue any that before Peter Martyr and Theodor Beza denied such power of God And let them no more set foorth the authorities of the Fathers to prooue that one body is not naturally in two places The Doctors doo not maruell if the Ministers do magnifie Peter Martyr from whom they haue taken all the places they haue brought Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching that which the Doctors pretend that the forme c. The Doctors say that this forme is common as often as men will debate of the power of God And they cannot be better guided to proue it then to follow the words of the Angel That there is nothing impossible to God From the which when a man will except something hee will alwaies bring what the Ministers do bring that there is some repugnancy of things whereof ensueth some implication of contradiction As did the olde heretiques against the flesh of Iesus Christ who brought alwayes some impossibilitie according to nature And as much did they against the Article of the Resurrection and incarnation as though there had bene contradiction that God should be man and man should be God And it shall be alwayes easie for an euil spirit to forge some contradiction in his conceit according to the proprieties of nature And concerning the Article beginning As touching that which the Doctors do adde that God can change c. The Doctors say that the Ministers haue not wel conceiued their meaning for they take for an absurd thing that a substance remaining affected of his qualities can by the power of God haue effects contrary to his qualities As if God by his omnipotencie could not make the fire hauing his naturall heate to coole in stead of burning which none of sound and Christian iudgement will deny Concerning the Article beginning Touching the limitation of the power c. The Doctors say that it seemeth by the Ministers answere that the power of God is limited according to his will as much to say as God cannot doo but what he will which is notoriously false For the Hebrew alledged the Ministers it seemeth are willing to shew they are skilfull therin For such summoning is not to the purpose when as they stay chiefly vpon the word Dauar which is as much to say as one thing But it ought not to bee vnderstood of a thing done they said to be done And such is the sence of the place ad verbum Shall there be any thing hidden from me And because hard things are hidden things impossible also are yet more hidden Behold why they haue translated Is there any thing hard or impossible to mee Which holy Pagninus and other Interpreters of the Hebrew tongue do wel declare that the verbe Pala signifieth to hide The Doctors had no desire to answer herevnto but to make it bee vnderstood that an Hebrew word doth not appaule them CoÌ„cerning the article beginning Touching the danger c. The Doctors say that they are words superfluous and whatsoeuer the Ministers can bring the same may other vse and retort against the said Ministers And where they say it is a slaunder in that they obiect vnto them that they corrupt the scripture the Doctors say that the Ministers cannot denie but they change the sence glose the words of the Supper This is my body This is my bloud And with like authoritie as they vnder pretence of I know not what reasons may each one pretend to corrupt the other scriptures alledge some impossibilities contradictioÌ„s of nature As touching the article beginning To that which they adde that the scripture saith that the body c. The Doctors do say that in time and place they will shewe what they haue obiected when as they shall treate more amply of the Sacrament of the Aultar Where the Doctors haue obiected that the Ministers do not ground their affirmation to wit that God cannot make one body to be in two places vpon the expresse testimonie of the scripture or can thereof deduct the same The Ministers for all places haue onely brought but these that God cannot lye God cannot denie himselfe But the Doctors say that this consequence is nought worth God cannot lye God cannot therefore make one body to be in two places which neuerthelesse the Ministers should haue made such had the places produced serued to that purpose Ioyned that when it is said God cannot lye as the Ministers themselues haue cyted to be able to lye is not power but infirmitie So that according to the true sense it was meet so to say God is not weake that he can lye Therfore God cannot make one bodie to be in two places which consequence should be ridiculous And where the Ministers haue brought certaine authorities of the auncient Fathers to proue

body Moreouer in numbring of the errors sometimes coÌ„demned by the facultie of Paris it is expresly said That the heauen by them called Empyreum is the place of Angels of blessed spirits and glorified humane bodies Where the Doctors pretend that of the doctrine which the Ministers maintaine that a body cannot be without place nor in many places at one instant may be inferred that they blaspheme the omnipotencie of God The Ministers contrariwise say that the Doctors blaspheme his Maiestie and diminish the same in attributing to the creature that which appertaineth to him alone to wit to be vncircumscript As it appeareth by that which Didimus saith in his booke of the holy Ghost where he proueth that the holy Ghost is God not a creature because he is incircumscript and that al creatures necessarily be circumscript and limited As much thereof also say S. Basil and Vigilius and the Mr. of the sentences in his first booke Where they confesse that the Angels and blessed spirits be circumscript although they be not corporall This reason is against themselues and proper to proue what the Ministers haue here aboue maintained of bodies to wit that it cannot be but that they be circumscript in some place For by an argument froÌ„ the lesse to the more If the Angels which want dimension and measure by their own confession in as much as they be creatures be necessarily circumscript by a more strong reason the bodies of men which be creatures and measured shall be so likewise And where they adde that the auncient Fathers haue not said that one body by the power of God could not be in diuers places That is contrary to the saying of S. Augustine in his 30. tract vpon S. Iohn which is recited De consec distinct 2. C. Prima quideÌ„ Where speaking of the body of Iesus Christ he saith namely It behooueth that the body of our Lord wherin he rose again be in one place teaching therby that at one selfe-same time it cannot be in diuers places And touching the reason they adde taken froÌ„ the Sacrament to proue their assertioÌ„ the Ministers say that the fathers neuer vnderstood nor said that the body of Iesus Christ was in heauen and in the Sacrament in one selfe same sort maner nor do they teach that he was otherwise then Sacramentally in the Sacrament And wheras in their resolutioÌ„ they pretend to proue that the Angels may at one self instant be in diuers places when the Ministers shall haue vnderstood their reasons then they wil answere therevnto That which they say of a body it being dispoiled of it dimensions ceaseth not to be a body notwithstanding is a very absurd thing For did it happen that a corporal substance were wholly dispoiled of it dimensions it should no more be a body but an incorporeall substance of like nature as the Angels spirits And although God by his power can seperate the dimensioÌ„s of a substance without corrupting it yet can it not be that they be seperated froÌ„ a body without the corruptioÌ„ of the same Because the quantitie dimensions are accidents of the substance but not of the body which cannot subsist without them in as much as they be of it proper essence Whereas the Doctors say afterwards in their obiection that the waight in a body is a thing essentiall The Ministers do deny it And the reason is that were it of the essence of a bodie and the same wanting the bodie should cease to bee Neuerthelesse we see that the glorified bodie of Iesus Christ wherevnto the bodies of all the elect shall be like after the resurrection doth not leaue to be subsist although it be now exempted from all waight And as touching their alledged very strong and mightie argument That if two bodies may be in one selfe place togither one body at one instant may be also in diuers places The Ministers not graunting the antecedent vnder correction say that the consequence is not good and that the argument is very weake Adding therto that the Doctors haue nor prooued and neuer can prooue by the scriptures nor by any authoritie of the auncient Fathers nor by any sufficient reason that which they propose in their antecedent or the consequent which they inferre thereof to be true Wheras the Doctors to proue that two bodies may be together in one selfe place alledge out of the scripture that Iesus Christ entred into the house where his Disciples were the doores being shut The Ministers do answere that it is not written that he entred through the closed doores but only the doores being shut which the auncient Interpreter hath well giuen to vnderstand expounding in one of the places of S. Iohn where mention is made of that aboue said Cuum fores essent clausae Then when the doores were shut Iesus came c. Neuertheles the Ministers say they verily belieue and are assured of that which the scripture doth clearly say to wit that the doores being shut he came and stood in the midst of his Disciples But they cannot certainly define nor determine which way he entered whether it were through the walles or doores of wood which Hillary himselfe maketh doubt of in that place of his writings alledged by the Doctors Howsoeuer it be the Ministers do say that in entering he miraculously made way And that a body be it the wood or wall did yeeld and giue place to the body of Iesus Christ entering or that an opening was made vnto him by the Angell which opened and afterward shut againe the doores in a moment as before hath bâ—ne said And that howsoeuer it was done two bodies were neuer found in one selfe same place together Touching that they alledge out of S. Augustine in his booke de agone Christiano that Iesus Christ entered through the doores The Ministers deny not that he entred through the doores but that two bodies onely were neuer in one selfe same place together But if Iesus Christ entered through the doores that the doores at his entire gaue him place as is said For that which the Doctors alledge touching the Apostles suspition that it was a vaine vision it nought appertaineth to the present matter nor that also that they maruelled at the maner of his entry which was miraculous as they euer confessed And touching that which they adde afterwards in the opinion held by the olde heretiques of the bodie of Iesus Christ that it was not a true bodie because it did things aboue nature The Ministers doo shewe them that they litle think what occasion and foundation of their errour the auncient Fathers had presented vnto them had they confessed what the Doctors haue set foorth and doo obstinately defend of the bodie of Iesus Christ that it doth things not only aboue nature but also contrary to nature yea euen contrary to the will and ordinance of God And there is no doubt but such an opinion should be a great proofe for Marcion and other heretiques which

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