You must bee subiect for conscience sake If the Saintes must bee subiect to Princes ergo the Church for the Church on earth is nothing els but the collection of Saintes And if euery soule that is euery man must bee subiect howe can the Church consisting of men bee exempted But if by the Church you meane the preceptes and promises giftes and graces of God preached in the Church and poured on the Church Princes must humbly obey them and reuerently receiue them as well as other priuate men So that Prophets Apostles Euangelists and all other buylders of Christes Church as touching their Persons bee subiect to the Princes power mary the word of trueth in their mouthes and the Seales of grace in their handes because they are of God not of themselues they be farre aboue the Princes calling and regiment and in those cases kinges and Queenes if they will bee saued must submit themselues to Gods euerlasting trueth and testament as well as the meanest of their people but this neither abateth the power which God hath giuen them ouer all men nor maketh them thrall to the Popes iudiciall processe to bee forced and punished at his pleasure and therefore this notwithstanding Princes bee supreme that is superiour to all and subiect to none but onely to God Phi. Who euer taught before you that Princes were subiect only to God Theo. The Church of Christ from the beginning Colimus Imperatorem vt hominem a Deo secundum solo Deo minorem Wee reuerence the Emperour sayth Tertullian as a man next vnto God and inferiour only to God Againe Deum esse solum in cuius solius potestate sunt a quo sunt secundi post quem primi ante omnes super omnes Deos hommes It is onely God in whose power alone Princes are in comparison with him they bee second and after him first afore all and ouer all both Gods and men So likewise Optatus Super Imperatorem non est nisi solus Deus qui fecit Imperatorem Aboue the Empe-rour is none but onely GOD who made the Emperour And Chrysostome Parem vllum super terram non habet The Emperour hath no peere on earth much lesse any superiour And that Princes are aboue all Saint Paul is cleare Let euery soule bee subiect to the Superiour powers All must bee subiect to them ergo they bee superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Chrysostome calleth the Emperour The highest and head of all men vpon earth Iustinian sayth the Emperour hath receiued a common gouernement and Principalitie ouer all men Ambrose sayth of Theodosius that hee had power ouer all men And Gregorie as you hearde affirmeth that Power is giuen to Princes from heauen ouer all men not onely Souldiers but also Priestes And since I before concluded and you confessed all men were they Monkes Priestes Bishoppes or whatsoeuer to bee subiect to the Princes power and authoritie both in causes ecclesiasticall and temporall why shoulde that nowe bee reuoked or doubted Phi. I neuer did nor will confesse Princes to bee supreme For he that iudgeth on earth in Christes steade is aboue them all Theo. You come nowe to the quicke This very clayme was the cause why the woorde supreme was added to the othe for that the Bishoppe of Rome taketh vppon him to commaund and depose Princes as their lawfull and superiour iudge To exclude this wicked presumption wee teach that Princes be supreme rulers wee meane subiect to no superiour iudge to giue a reason of their doings but onely to God Phi. This you teach but this you can not prooue Theo. It forceth not what wee can doe The burden in this case to prooue is yours and not ours You say Princes bee subiect to the Popes Consistorie wee say they bee not Must wee prooue the negatiue or must you rather make good your affirmatiue Againe Saint Paul auoucheth with vs that euery soule is subiect to their power You contradict those woordes and say the Pope is not subiect but Superiour to Princes The generall in precise tearmes concludeth for vs you except the Pope must you not prooue your exception Phi. You be loth to proue you knowe the weakenes of your side Theo. You crosse the plaine wordes of the holy Ghost and woulde put vs to refute your fansies Phi. Wee say Christs Uicar is not included in those woordes Theo. Wee say the generall includeth euery particular Phi. How could Paul make Peter a subiect to Princes when Peter was none Theo. Why shoulde not Peter bee subiect to Princes when God himselfe pronounced by the mouth of Paul that euery soule was subiect to them Phi. Who euer constred S. Pauls words so besides you Theo. The Church of Christ neuer constred them otherwise Peter and the Bishoppes of Rome for the first three hundred yeeres did they not patiently submit themselues as subiects to those punishments and torments which heathen Princes inflicted on other Christians Phi. In deede they were martyred for the most part by the rage of Infidels that knewe them not Theo. And the Christians that knewe them neuer tooke armes to defend thē against the rage of Infidels but thought them subiect to higher powers by force of S. Pauls words as well as all other Bishoppes were Phi. They might not resist though they were wrongfully vexed Theo. And why might they not but because they were subiect by Gods ordinance to the Princes power Unlawfull violence might well bee resisted Phi. Christian Princes were neuer superiours to the Bishoppes of Rome Theo. Syr your courage is more than your cunning The Bishops of Rome for eight hundred and fiftie yeres after Christ that we can directly proue were duetifull and obedient subiects to Christian Emperours Phi. Are you not ashamed to tell such a tale Theo. Will you be ashamed of your error if I proue it a trueth Phi. Shewe mee that and I will yeeld the rest Theo. The rest is alreadie proued and this shall be presently shewed I might alleage that after the Romane Emperours began to professe the name of Christ Iulius and Liberius were banished by Constantius Bonifacius the first by Honorius Syluerius and Vigilius by Iustinian Martyne the first by Constantine the thirde and diuers other Popes by sundrie Princes but that I will skippe come to the submission of Leo the fourth made to Ludouike the West Emperour with these wordes If we haue done any thing otherwise than well and not dealt vprightly with those that are vnder vs wee will amend all that is amisse by the iudgement of your highnes beseeching your excellencie to sende for the better triall of these surmises such as in the feare of God may narrowly sift not onely the matters infourmed but all our doings great and smal as well as if your Maiestie were present so that by lawfull examination all may bee finished and nothing left vndiscussed or vndetermined In all things great and small the Pope
inter se habuerunt were this notwithstanding ioyned in communion pacem in vniuersa Ecclesia tum seruantes tum non seruantes retinuerunt and both sides kept the band of peace in the Catholike Church For the discrepant obseruation of fasting before Easter he saith the like Alij vnum sibi diem ieiunandum esse putant alij duos alij plures alij quadraginta horas Nihilo minus tamen omnes illi pacem inter se retinuerunt retinemus etiamnuÌ„ dissonantia ieiunij fidei concordiam commendat Some fast one daie some two dayes some more some fourtie houres and yet all these continued in peace among themselues and to this day we continue the same and our difference in fasâ—â—â—g commendeth our concord in faith Socrates hath a whole chapter purposely made to shew what diuersitie there was in the Church of Christ about Lent the Lordes Supper marying baptizing praying fasting and such like Ecclesiasticall obseruances and yet all those places and countries parts of the Catholik Church and communicant one with an other in Christian peace and vnitie Operosum molestum fuerit imò impossibile omnes ecclesiarum quae per ciuitates regiones sunt ritus conscribere It were an hard and laborious thing saith he yea an impossible to write al the different customes and manners of the Churches in euerie citie and countrie Qui eiusdem sunt fidei de ritibus inter se dissentiunt They that are of the same faith differ in their rites So that this is no breach of the Christian and Catholike communion which all the faithfull ought to keepe among themselues with their head the author and finisher of their faith Phi. It openeth the gappe to all kinde of diuisions schismes sectes and disorders Theo. Why so Because your holy father can not marchandize the soules empt the purses of men as he was wont to do What Sectes Schismes disorders or heresies can there arise if we defend it lawfull for Princes to commaÌ„d for truth within their own Realmes Nay rather hath not the subiecting of Princes to the Popes pride wrought the vtter ruine and decaie of the West Church Where Rulers be many it is easie to finde some good and they wil resist that which is euill and reforme that which is amisse where one ruleth al if he fal as he quickly may he draweth the whole Church into the same danger and error with him Phi. But the successour of Peter can not erre and therefore the Church is safest when it is ruled by him for whose faith Christ praied that it might not faile Theo. Proue that the Pope can not erre and we will graunt not onely this but all your religion besides to be true Phi. What you wil not Theo. The word is spoken accept the condition when you list Till you do we prefer Cyprians iudgement before yours Therefore deare brother saith he writing to Stephanus Bishop of Rome is there a plentifull number of Priestes in the church ioyned togither with the knot of mutuall concorde and bande of peace that if any of our companie make a breach and rent and wast the the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and pitifull Pastours reduce the Lordes sheepe to the flocke againe The number of Rulers in his opinon is no cause of sectes and dissentions but rather a remedie prouided in the Church against disorder and heresie Phi. It maketh all Christian Bishops Priestes and whatsoeuer borne out of the Realme forrainers and vsurpers in all iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall towardes vs that there can be no iurisdiction ouer English-mens soules but proceeding and depending of her soueraigne right therein Theo. Your force is almost spent when you come to these frozen and woodden obiections Wee call those that were borne and liue out of the Realme forrainers What else should wee call them And such as pretend Peters keies to dispose crownes and remoue Princes from their seates ioyning rebellion with remission of sinnes we thinke them vsurpers and abusers of Ecclesiastical iurisdiction A maruelous ouersight in deed We might haue spared you some sharper and quicker termes but by these wee thought good to manifest to the world your iniurious and irreligious drift to be masters of earthly kingdomes by winding and turning Peters keies at your pleasure Phi. Your words exclude Christ his Apostles in as much as they were and be forrainers from hauing any iurisdiction ouer England Theo. It is pitie you can not cauil We striue for iudicial authoritie to depriue Princes you vrge vs with Apostolike power to preach the Gospell and remit sinnes Wee speake of that which is at this present you tell vs what was fifteene hundred yeares since We reason of States in earth you run to Saints in heauen We reiect the Bishop of Rome you wrangle with vs as though wee refused the sonne of God Doth not matter faile you when you flie for helpe to such vnsauory toies Phi. Your oth is so absurdly conceiued that though you ment not to exclude Christ and his Apostles yet in wordes you doe For if No forraine person Prelat State nor Potentate hath nor ought to haue any iurisdiction power superiority preeminence or authority ecclesiasticall or spiritual within this Realme of England surely neither Christ nor his Apostles because they were be forrainers haue or ought to haue any Theo. Not our speaking but your wresting and wrenching of our wordes is far fet most absurd For first where you auouch Christ himself to be a forrainer whoÌ„ we acknowledge to be the right inheritor owner of the whole worlde yea the mighty Lord king of heauen earth in gibing at vs you iest on his birth as if Christ were a forrainer to the Gentiles because he tooke flesh among the Iewes And though you might haue takâ—n some aduantage at his cradle yet you should haue remembred that the Creator is no forrainer to the worke of his handes as likewise the heade is not to the members nor God incarnate to the sonnes of men As for his Apostles in deede whiles they liued on earth they were forrainers but that their spirits now present with God raigning in blisse with Christ bee forrainers is a mad speech of yours no meaning of ours You must send vs word from Rhemes how soules can be French Spanish Scottish or English These with vs be distinctions of couÌ„tries not of souls after death til your new doctrine came wee tooke them to cease With a little helpe I thinke you will make vs some men soules and some women soules you be so skilfull in these conceites Againe might the soules in heauen be called or counted forrainers you must tell vs what ecclesiasticall power authoritie they now exercise on earth We do not affirme that forrainers neuer had any such power in England the Apostles had their commission from
spared by Prinâ—es shoulde bee driuen to earnest and open repentaunce before they bee â—eceiued into the Church or admitted to the diuine mysteries yea rather I thâ—nke it very needefull in a Christian common-wealth that God bee pleased and the Church preserued from all felowshippe with these monsterous impieties as well as the Scepter is intreated for their liues but that you shoulde exempt or saue the workers of wickednes from the Princes sworde and their iust desertes by your priuileges or penances in steede of punishmentes that is quite repugnant to the sacred Scriptures Saint Paul sayth the Prince is Gods minister to reuenge him that doeth euill and not the Priest You may not reuenge malefactours you may separate your selues from them and haue no communion with them the Prince must punish them It passeth your Commission to beare the sworde and without the power of the sworde your corporall correcting and afflicting of them is vnlawfull and wrongfull violence And so for tythes testaments administrations seruitude legitimations and such like you went beyonde your boundes when you restrayned them to your Courtes and without Caesar made Lawes for thinges that belonged vnto Caesar. The goodes Landes Liuings States and families of Lay men and Clerkes are Caesars charge not yours and therefore your decrees iudgements and executions in those cases if you claime them from Christ as thinges spirituall not from Caesar as matters committed of trust to you by Christian Princes are nothing else but open and wilfull inuasions of other mens rightes you chaunging the names and calling those things spirituall and ecclesiasticall which in deede bee ciuill and temporall and shouldering Princes from their cusshins who first suffered Bishoppes to sitte iudges in those causes of Honour to their Persons and fauour to their functions which on your part is but a bad requitall of their Princely graces and benefites Phi. Affinitie consanguinitie contractes mariages diuorces and a number of those which you recken are thinges that depende vpon the lawes of GOD and haue often times such questions incident to them as none but Bishoppes are fit to resolue Theo. All vertues and vices all the partes of mans life both priuate and publike as namely the dueties of Princes Counsellours Captaines Iudges Parents Husbandes Masters Subiectes Souldiers Children Wiues and Seruants yea the woords thoughts and actions of all men depend in this respect vppon the woorde of God whether they shall bee followed as lawfull or auoyded as vnlawfull and haue often tymes in them such questions as none but diuines are â—it to resolue will you therefore inferre that all crimes causes and consultations domesticall Politicall and martiall are within the limittes of your spirituall iurisdiction to bee guided ordered and ended as it seemeth good to your Ghostly fathers Phi. Bishoppes haue power to binde and loose as well in all sinnes as in some Theo. Bishoppes are to teach and instruct men what the will of GOD is in all priuate publike spirituall temporall yea ciuill and warlike affayres but their authoritie goeth no farther than to denounce the woorde and dispence the Sacramentes in such sort as GOD hath prescribed them It passeth their power to make Lawes and appoynt externall and corporall punishments for any sinne that is proper to the sword which GOD hath ordayned of purpose to compell and punish for the better execution of his will and obseruation of his Lawe which â—ee things of all other most spirituall And therefore as Preachers by their office haue instruction and direction in all thinges both temporall and spirituall to compare them and pronounce them consonant or dissonant with the Lawe of GOD so Princes haue compulsion and correction annexed to their swordes as well for spirituall causes as temporall or rather of the twaine to see Godlinesse and honestie preserued amongst men than foode and rayment prouided Phi. This were a Paradoxe in deede that the Princes sworde was first ordayned by God rather for spirituall thinges and causes than for temporall Theo. None at all if you marke it well To buyld and plant sowe and reape eate and drinke there needed no sworde on earth but to preserue the Rules of pietie charitie sobrietie and equitie amongest men for this cause were Magistrates first ordayned by God and these bee thinges precisely and properly called spirituall in the sacred Scriptures The lawe is spirituall sayth the Apostle and the commaundement both the whole and euery part of it is holy iust and good which bee the right notes of spirituall vertues If then the sworde were first erected by GOD to defend and execute the partes and braunches of his Lawe and the contentes of his Lawe be spirituall ergo the Princes power was first ordayned of God for thinges spirituall and not onely for temporall as you fondly dreame and are foully deceiued And this is the meaning of Saint Paul when hee sayth that Princes are not to bee feared for good workes but for euill With whome Saint Peter agreeth calling the king preeminent for the punishment of euil doers and the prayse of them that doe well Nowe good and euill are to bee measured by Gods law not by mans for as no man is good but only God so no mans Lawe is the rule of good and euill but onely Gods And temporall thinges bee neither good nor euill but altogether indifferent ergo Princes were not ordayned of God for temporall things but the goods bodyes and liues of their subiects were coÌ„mitted to their handes for spirituall respects that is for the preseruation of fayth and good maners which shall go for spirituall thinges and causes when your tithes and testaments shall stande backe for temporall Phi. Understand you what temporall is Theo. It should seeme you doe not by your diuiding temporall against spirituall Repugnant to spiritual is carnall corporall and naturall not temporall as you counter set them and opposite to temporall is not spirituall but eternall And here you may see the falsenes and absurdnes of your diuision The spirituall thinges which your Courtes discusse bee temporall not eternall for after this life there bee no such questions nor actions The keyes and Sacraments in which consisteth your spirituall power bee not eternall but temporall they serue for the Church in earth not in heauen Saint Paul will teache you that Prophesyings tongues and knowledge notwithstanding they bee giftes of the spirite and namely rehearsed among spirituall thinges by the holy Ghost yet shall they cease and bee abolished So that all the spiritual things which wee striue for are but temporall and thinges eternall bee neither vnder the Priestes power nor the Princes but reserued onely to God and expected onely from God Phi. Eternall they bee not but spirituall they bee Theo. Then may the selfe-same thinges bee both spirituall and temporall which euerteth cleane your loose diuision of Temporall against spirituall Phi. Temporall wee call those thinges that serue to maintaine this temporall
Priesthoode who with his Iron rodde bruseth the pride of Princes that rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters poâ—shard and hath right in his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom al kings shall fall downe and all Nations do him seruice Theo. That the Sonne of God will bruse the pride of those Princes with an Iron rodde which rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters shard and that he hath right both within and without his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom all kings on earth and Angels in heauen shall fall downe and doe him seruice these thinges are vndoubted with vs and brought in by you but onely for a windlace to make the reader cast his eyes on Christ and his kingdome while you closely conuey the Princes Scepter vnder the Popes feete Accursed bee hee that doeth not confesse the supereminent power which the Sonne of God hath ouer all kingdomes ouer all creatures ouer the States and liues bodies and soules of all men Wil you thence inferre the Pope hath the like In sooth masters you must make hard shift before these reasons will bee good Phi. Christs Priestly prerogatiue passing his owne regall dignitie much more excelling all other humane power of the worlde in most ample and exact termes is coÌ„municated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules and secondarily to the rest of the gouernours of the Church in other manner of clauses than any earthly Princes can shewe for their pretensed spirituall regiment Fie on that secular pride wilfull blind heresie so repugning against Gods expresse ordinaunce and yet is of wicked Sect-masters and flatterers vpholden to the eternall calamitie of themselues and of millions of others Theo. This is stale Rhetorike to come with an outcrie when you should make your conclusion Conclude first and rayle after otherwise you shewe your selues to trust more to the slippernes of your tongues than to the soundnes of your cause Phi. Our illation is euident Christ as a Priest bruseth the pride of Princes with his Iron rodde and hath right ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vppe buyld and destroy But Christs Priestly prerogatiue in most ample and exact termes is communicated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules The chiefe Pastor therefore hath the like right ouer all kingdomes to plant plucke vp buyld and destroy Theo. The power which you mention in your first proposition is attributed to Christ not as a Priest but as a king The wordes of the Psalme are very plaine to that end I haue set my king vpon my holy hill of Sion Aske of mee and I will giue thee the heathen for thine inheritaunce and the endes of the earth for a possession to thee Thou shalt crush them with a scepter of Iron and breake them in pieces like a potters vessell S. Iohn applieth the same place to the royal and not to the Priestly power of Christ. I saw the heauen open and beholde a white horse and hee that sate vpon him was called faithful and true and hee iudgeth and fighteth in righteousnes On his head were many Crownes and out of his mouth went a sharpe sword that with it he should smite the heathen and hee shal rule them with a rod of Iron And hee hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written the King of Kings and Lord of Lordes Howe thinke you His horse his Crowne his robe his traine his sworde his stile described in this place expresse they his Priestly or Princely prerogatiue As a Priest hee sacrificed himselfe on the crosse and had his owne blood shed for the remission of sinnes As a King hee subdueth his enemies and maketh them like dust vnder his feete bee they Princes or others Your Maior is therefore false that to bruse kings with an Iron rod and to breake them in pieces like a potters shard is a priuilege of Christs Priesthoode and not of his Princehoode Your Minor that Christs Priestly prerogatiue is communicated in most ample exact termes to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of the Church hath farre lesse trueth in it than your Maior For al the prerogatiue of Christs Priesthood is not communicated to any other Such an high Priest saith S. Paul it became vs to haue which shoulde be holy vndefiled separated from sinners made higher than the heauens who in the end of the world appeared once to put away sinne by the offering vp of himselfe and after that one sacrifice for sinne is set down for euer at the right hand of God hauing obtained eternal redeÌ„ption for vs and being able perfectly to saue them that come to God by him seeing he euer lyueth to make intercession for them These and many such prerogatiues of his Priesthood I hope you will not empart to the Pope lest wee crie fie on your blasphemous hearts and mouthes which set the man of sinne equall with the sonne of God If you restraine your Minor by confessing that not all but some of the prerogatiues of Christes Priesthoode are communicated to others then your conclusion hath no force both your premisses being meere particulars For though Christ gaue some part of his power honour to his Apostles yet this hee gaue not and therefore his gift to them can doe you no good vnlesse you prooue that hee gaue them this prerogatiue amongst the rest which he bestowed on them Phi. Hee sayd to Peter and his successours Whatsoeuer thou bindest on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou losest in earth shall bee loosed in heauen Can you require a more ample graunt Theo. Peter and the rest were to bind and lose the sinnes and soules of men by the woord and sacraments not the Scepters and swords of Princes And so Christ himselfe expoundeth his graunt vnto them Whose sinnes soeuer you remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes soeuer yee retaine they are retayned And in this place you leaue out the first part of the graunt which should direct the whole I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen not of the kingdomes on earth Bernard though he were but of late yeeres yet was he not afraid to tel Pope Eugenius ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra quoniam propter illa non propter has accepistis claues regni caelorum Your power concerneth sinnes and not possessions because yee receiued the keyes of the kingdome of heauen for those thinges and not for these And so Theophilact Vnderstand the keyes which bind and lose to bee the pardoning or punishing of sinnes And so S. Ambrose The right of the holy Ghost consisteth in bynding and losing of sinnes As also Saint Augustine The keyes Christ gaue to his Church that what she loosed in earth should be
Father or Councell for 800. yeares that proueth the Pope superiour to the Prince Bring somwhat to that end or else say you can not and I am answered Phi. I proue the church superior to the Prince which is enough to confute the supreme power that you giue to Princes Theo. And what for the Pope Shall he be superiour to Princes or no Phi. We wil talke of that an other time we be now reasoning of the church which I trust you will grant to be superiour to Princes God saide to the Church The nation and kingdom that will not serue thee shall perish And kinges shall serue thee Theo. This is right the trade of your Apologie to pretende the church and meane the Pope You sawe you were neuer able to proue the Popes vsurped power ouer Princes and therefore you thought it best to put a visarde of the Church vppon the Popes face and to bring him in that sort disguised to the stage to deceiue the simple with the sounde and shewe of the Church And for that cause your fourth chapter neuer nameth the Pope but stil vrgeth The regiment of the church The iudgement of the church The churches tribunall conuerted kingdomes must serue the church and euerie where the church the church and when the Church is confessed to bee superiour to Princes you set vppe the Pope as heade of the Church to take from her all the superioritie power and authoritie which before you claymed for her and so you make the Church but a cloke-bagge to carrie the Popes titles after him but staie your wisedomes the Church may bee superiour and yet the Pope subiect to Princes Kinges may serue the Church and yet commaund your holie father and his gymmoes the parish Priestes of Rome for their turning winding euery way iustly called Cardinals Phi. Can Princes bee supreme and the church their superiour Theo. Why not Phi. If any thing bee superiour Princes bee not supreme Theo. That I denie The Scriptures bee superiour to Princes and yet they supreme the Sacramentes bee likewise aboue them and yet that hindereth not their supremacie Truth Grace Faith Prayer and other Ghostlie vertues bee higher than all earthly states and all this notwithstanding Princes may bee supreme gouernours of their kingdomes and Countries Phi. You cauill nowe you shoulde compare persons with persons and not thinges with persons there may bee thinges aboue Princes and yet they supreme but if anie persons bee superiour then can they not bee supreme Theo. No The Sainctes in heauen and Angels of God bee persons superiour to Princes and yet may Princes bee supreme Phi. Why Theophilus these bee wrangling quiddities for shame leaue them The Sainctes bee superiour in perfection and dignitie but not in externall vocation and authoritie Theo. I like that you saie but if you looke backe you shall see Philander that you giue iudgement against your selfe Phi. Against my selfe Why so Theo. The Church is superiour to Princes for those very respectes which I nowe repeated First because the Saincts in heauen which are part of the church in happines perfection and dignitie bee many degrees aboue worldely states Secondly though the members of the Church bee subiect and obedient to Princes yet the thinges contayned in the Church and bestowed on the Church by God him-selfe I meane the light of his worde the working of his Sacramentes the giftes of his grace and fruites of his spirite bee farre superiour to all Princes Nowe view your consequent The Church in respect of her members in heauen and graces on earth is aboue the Prince ergo the Prince is not supreme but subiect to the Pope This is worse than wrangling You confound things and persons heauen and earth God and man to beare out the Popes pride Phi. You stretch the name of the church whither you list Theo. I may better stretch it to these thinges which I specifie than you restraine it to one onelie man as you doe But why doe I stretch the church farther than I should The Sainctes in heauen bee they not members of the church Phi. They bee membees of the church which is in heauen Theo. And the church in heauen is it an other church from this on earth or the same with it Phi. I thinke it bee the same Theo. You must not goe by thoughtes Sainct Paul saith You are of the same citie with the Sainctes and Ierusalem which is aboue is no straunger to vs but the mother of vs all Cum ipsis Angelis sumus vna ciuitas Dei cuius pars in nobis peregrinatur pars in illis opitulatur Wee saith Austen are one and the same citie of God with the Angels whereof part wandereth on earth in vs part in them assisteth vs. And againe The true Sion and true Ierusalem is euerlasting in heauen which is the mother of vs all She hath begotten vs shee hath nurced vs in part a stranger on earth in a greater part remaining in heauen For the soules of the godly that be dead be not seuered from the church which euen now is the kingdome of Christ. Certaynely Christ hath but one bodie which is his church and of that body since the Sainctes be the greater and worthier part they must bee counted of the same Church with vs. Phi. I stick not at that so much as at the next where you make the word and Sacramentes togither with their effectes and fruites to be parts of the church Theo. I do not say they be members of the Church but thinges required in the church without the which we can neither become nor continue the members of Christ. In a naturall bodie the spirits and faculties be no members yet without them the members haue neither life motion sense nor action So in the mysticall bodie of Christ the members be men but the meanes and helpes to make vs and keepe vs the members of Christ are the word and Sacraments without the which we can neither be planted quickned nor nourished in Christ. For the members be dead if they liue not by faith if they grow not by grace if they cleaue not by loue to their heade and moue at his will by obedience And therefore these thinges though they bee not members yet they bee ioyntes and sinewes vaines and vessels that giue life groeth strength and state to the bodie of Christ which is his church and may iustly bee called the principall powers or partes of his bodie Phi. Powers if you will but not partes Theo. As though the powers of the soule were not partes of the soule Phi. Not properly partes but powers and faculties Theo. What call you partes Phi. Whereof the whole consisteth Theo. And since without these there can be no Church ergo these be partes of the church Phi. You take partes very largely Theo. No larger than I should The foundation of the house is it not a part of the house Phi. Yes a chiefe
part Theo. Faith is the foundation of the church why then should not faith be a part of the church Phi. The Church consisteth of persons not of thinges Men are the church saith S. Augustine Againe The church that is the people of God throughout all nations Theo. I doe not deny the church to bee many times taken for the faithfull on earth but I adde that the graces mysteries and word of God bee contained in the Church and without them the Persons are no Church Our bodies and soules doe not make vs members of Christ but our faith and obedience By Baptisme not by birth doe we Put on Christ and grace not meates establish our heartes They bee the sonnes of God that he led by the spirit of God And if any man haue not the spirit of Christ the same is no member of his Phi. All this is true Theo. The church then consisteth not of men but of faithfull men and they bee the Church not in respect of flesh and blood which came from earth but of trueth and grace which came from heauen Phi. I graunt Theo. Ergo the perfection of Gods giftes the communion of his graces and direction of his word are the verie life and soule of his Church so within the compasse of the church are comprised not onely the persons that bee earthly but also the things that be heauenly whereby God gathereth preserueth and sanctifieth his Church Phi. What doth this helpe you Theo. That when wee saie with S. Ambrose Imperator bonus intra Ecclesiam non supra Ecclesiam est A good Emperour is within the Church not aboue the Church you can conclude nothing out of these words against vs. Phi. Can we not If good Princes bee not aboue the church ergo they be not aboue the prelats pillours of the church Theo. That is no consequent Phi. Why not Theo. By the Church are ment sometimes the places somtimes the persons sometime the things that be cheefely required in the Church Of the place S. Austen saith We cal the Church the temple where the people which are trewly called the Church are conteined that by the name of the Church I meane the people which is conteined we may signifie the place which conteyneth And againe The Church is the place where the Church is assembled for men are the Church The Church as it is taken for persons hath a triple distinction First the Church of glorious and elect Angels and men Ecclesia deorsum ecclesia sursum Ecclesia deorsum in omnibus fidelibus ecclesia sursum in omnibus Angelis There is a Church beneath there is a Church aboue The Church beneath in all the faithfull the Church aboue in all the Angels And againe The right order of confession required that in our creed next to the three persons in Trinity should stand the Church as next to the owner his howse to God his tēple to the builder his citie which must here be taken for the whole not only that part which is a pilgrime on earth but also for that part which abiding in heauen hath euer since it was created cleauen vnto God This part in the holy Angels persisteth in blessednes and helpeth as it ought her other part wandring in earth The temple of God therfore is the holy Church I mean the vniuersall in heauen and earth Secondly the Church is the people of God through out all nations ioyning reckning al the Saints which before his cōming liued in this world The whole Church euerie where diffused is the bodie of Christ and he is the head of it Not only the faithful which are now but also they that were before vs and they that shall be after vs to the end of the world they al pertaine to his bodie The Church is the body of Christ not the church which is here or there but that which is here and euery where throughout the world neither that Church which is at this time but from Abel vnto those which shall hereafter bee borne and beleeue in Christ euen till the end the whole companie of saintes belonging to one Citie which is the bodie of Christ and whereof he is the head Thirdly the Church may bee limited by time and place as the particular Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus and such like Behold saith Austen in the Church there be Churches which be members of that one Church dispersed throughout the world There be many Churches yet one Church and in that sort many that there is but one Somtimes the church importeth besides the persons y◠things in which those persons must communicate before they can be members of the Church as when the church is called the kingdome citie and howse of God whereby wee learne that it is furnished not onely with persons but with all thinges needefull for the seruants citizens and people of God to the conuerting and sauing of their soules In that sense saith S. Paul The kingdome of God is righteousnes peace and ioy in the holy Ghost meaning these be fruits and effects of Gods kingdome which our Sauiour threatned to take from the Iewes The kingdome of God shall bee taken from you and giuen to a nation that shall bring forth the fruites thereof shewing that when the woorde of trueth and seales of grace are taken from vs wee cease to bee the people and Church of God Christ raigneth in his Church by his word and spirit without these men are not the Church An earthly citie must haue vnitie societie regiment sufficiencie for an earthly state the number of men doeth not make a citie if these thinges want Howe much more must the citie of God haue abundance of al thinges profiting to eternall life S. Austen sayth of the house of God which is the Church It is founded by beleeuing erected by hoping perfected by louing noting these three to bee the maine partes in the building of Gods house It is playner than that longer proofe shall neede If wee woulde define the Church wee must comprehend not onely men but other thinges also which may seuer the Church from those that are not the Church and those thinges that are required to the explication are wee say contained in the appellation of the Church The Church is not simply a number of men for Infidels heretikes and hypocrites are not the Church but of men regenerate by the woord and Sacraments truely seruing God according to the Gospell of his sonne and sealed by the spirite of grace against the day of redemption Men thus qualified are the Church and the giftes and graces of GOD that so qualifie them bee not onely the iewels and ornaments wherewith the spouse of Christ is decked but euen the seede and milke whereby like a mother shee conceyueth and nourceth her children The church our mother saith Austen conceiued vs of Christ nourished yea nourisheth vs with the milke of faith Shee conceiueth by the Sacraments
Christ to teach and baptise all nations without exceptioÌ„ but we say none hath at this present nor ought to haue any such power within the Realme and vnlesse you will defende that soules in heauen doe nowe preach the Gospel and minister the Sacramentes we see not how the Apostles haue any actuall function or ecclesiasticall power on earth here or elsewhere These quarrels full of spite and voide of al trueth and common reason doe more than you thinke impaire the credit of your religion and learning but so great is your malice that it shutteth your senses kindleth your cholor whiles you would say somwhat to say you care not what be it neuer so vntrue or vntidy Phi. The Princes soueraignty is directly against the commandement commission giuen to Peter first then to all the Apostles of preaching baptising remitting retaining binding loosing ouer all the world without difference of temporall state or dependance of any mortall Prince therein Theo. That coÌ„mandement promise of our Sauior to his Apostles is no way preiudiciall to our doctrine nor beneficial to yours as also the charge which the preachers bishops of England haue ouer their flocks proceedeth neither from Prince nor Pope nor dependeth vpon the wil or word of any earthly creature therfore you do vs the more wrong so confidently to say what you list of vs as if your enuious reports were authentik oracles Phi. You make the Prince supreme gouernor in al spiritual ecclesiasticall thinges causes preaching baptising binding loosing such like be spiritual things causes ergo you make the Princes supreme gouernor euen in these things And here you may see that we iustly charge you with all the former absurdities though to shift theÌ„ vs off you say we do nothing but slander cauil Theo. And here you may see the truth of our speech vniustnes of your charge that as you began so you coÌ„tinue with spite full peâ—â—erting deprauing our words For by GOVERNORS we do not mean moderators perscribers directors inuentors or authors of these things as you misconster vs but rulers magistrates bearing the sworde to permit defende that which Christ himselfe first appointed ordained with lawfull force to disturbe the despisers of his wil testament Now what inconuenience is this if we say that Princes as publike Magistrates may giue freedom protection and assistance to the preaching of the word ministring of the Sacraments right vsing of the keies not fet licence from Rome Is that against Christs coÌ„mandement or commission giuen to Peter the rest or doth that proue all ecclesiasticall power cure of soules to proceed depend of the Princes right Phi. It keepeth the realme from obedience to general Councels which haue bin or shal be gathered in forraine countries It taketh away al conuenient meanes of gathering holding or executing any such Councels their Decrees as appeared by refusing to come to the late Councel of Trent notwithstanding the Popes messengers and letters of other great Princes which requested and inuited them to the same Theo. Princes ought to heare obey the truth proposed by priuate persons Preachers much more to reuerence the same declared by a number of faithful godly Bishops meeting in a general councel But the pleasures orders of other princes prelats be their assembly neuer so great the rulers of this realme are not bound to respect vnlesse their consents be first required and obtained Particular councels you may call without vs and as we are not acquainted with them so are we not obstricted to them Generall Councels you can not call without the liking and warning of all Christian Princes and common-wealthes and if you neglect or skippe any they may lawfully refuse and despise that which you shal then and there decree For that which pertaineth to all can not be good without the knowledge and consents of all Phi. To the Councel of Trent you were requested and inuited by messengers froÌ„ the Pope and letters of other great Princes Theo. To your Chapter at Trent we came not for many good and sufficient reasons The Pope tooke vppon him to call that Councell which he had no right to do None might haue voices in the Councel but such as were his creatures and sworne to bee true trustie to his triple crowne The conclusion and resolution of all thinges was euer reserued to him or his Legates This Realme and others were inuited to come but as suppliants to your Synod to stand at your curtesies and to suffer your selues to be iudges in your owne cause and yet you thinke much that wee refused to come Let a christian councell bee agreed on by all their consentes that haue to do with it let both sides haue like interest in the councell Let your Salua semper in omnibus Apostolicae sedis authoritate Forprising in all thinges the Popes power and pleasure be reiected and the Scriptures inspired from God be laid in the middest as the ballance and touchstone of truth which was the wont of former councels Let both partes bee sworne to respect nothing but in the feare of God to examine the faith seeke out the ancient canons of Christs church if we faile to meete you declaime against vs on Gods name as hinderers of peace despisers of general councels Otherwise no duety bindeth vs to resort much lesse to be subiect to your vnlawfull routes voide of al christian authority liberty truth indifferency Phi. Was the Councell of Trent vnlawfully called Theo. Proue it the Popes right to cal generall Councels that none must sit there but his feed sworne men lastly that he must rule raigne as he doth in all assemblies bee iudge against al law reason in his own cause though he be chiefe in resisting the truth oppressing the church then will we grant your conuenticle at TreÌ„t was orderly called But if these things be repugnant to christian equitie the sincere canons of Gods Church whereby the Catholike Councels of former ages were directed as apparently they be then had your Tridentine chapter neither the calling keeping concluding nor meaning of a generall Councel Phi. Who shoulde call Councels if not the Pope Theo. Shew what one generall Councell the Pope called for the space of twelue hundred yeares after Christ and then aske vs who should call them but he if you can not learn that vsurpation is no right and that generall Councels were called by Princes and not by Popes and therefore the Popes power to summon generall Councels if it bee any grewe very lately and is not yet olde enough to bee currant or Catholike Phi. To the Councell of Trent other Princes consented Theo. Certaine Friers were set there to wast day light wearie the wals with declaiming against the Gospell of Christ whiles your holy
Gods appointment ergo they beare it in all thinges where the sworde must or may be vsed as well spirituall as temporall Phi. No doubt where the sword must or may bee borne they beare it but howe proue you that in spirituall thinges and causes the temporal sword must or may bee vsed Theo. Pitch that for the question and trie how wel you shall speede with it Phi. Wee neuer denyed but in some sort the temporall sword might bee vsed for spirituall thinges and causes as namely to defend the fayth and Canons of the Church and to put them in execution This Princes may do and must doe with their royall power but they may not commaund what they list in ecclesiasticall causes as you would haue them Theo. You snarle stil when you see your selfe brought to the wall What we woulde haue Princes to doe shall soone appeare if you cease from slaundering and keepe to the matter Our tongues ake with telling you that we hold no such opinion and yet you neuer leaue grating at vs as if we did The point that nowe wee stande at is this whether in a Christian common wealth the temporall sworde as you call it that is the publike authoritie of the Magistrate must bee vsed to receiue establish and defende the true faith of Christ and wholesome discipline of his Church and to prohibite displace and punish the contrarie say nay if you dare Phi. Wee neuer ment it Theo. Then in all spirituall thinges and causes Princes onely beare the sword that is haue publike authoritie to receiue establish and defende all poyntes and partes of Christian Doctrine and Discipline within their Realmes and without their helpe though the fayth and Canons of Christes Church may bee pryuately professed and obserued of such as bee willing yet can they not bee generally planted and setled in any kingdome nor vrged by publike Lawes externall punishments on such as refuse but by their consents that beare the sword This is it that wee say refell it if you can Phi. This is not your opinion but ours Wee confesse Princes to bee defenders of the faith and assisters of the Church with their secular might and power you auouche them to bee supreme moderatours and directours of all spirituall thinges and causes without restraint Theo. Wee auouche you to bee Supreme lyars and that which is worse you thinke with facing in time to get some credite to your fabling You finde no such thing in our words nor deedes as you report of vs. We confesse Princes to bee supreme gouernours that is as wee haue often told you supreme bearers of the sworde which was first ordained from aboue to defend and preserue as well goodlines and honestie as peace and tranquillitie amongest men We giue Princes no power to deuise or inuent new religions to alter or change Sacraments to decide or debate doubtes of faith to disturbe or infringe the canons of the church The publike power and outward meanes which God hath vnited and annexed to their swords as namely to commaund by their Edicts and dispose the goods and bodies of such as resist them this power and meanes wee say must be conuerted and vsed first to the seruice and glorie of God next to the profit and welfare of their Realmes that is as much or rather more for thinges spirituall than temporall Phi. If you giue Princes no iudicial nor spiritual power in matters of religiō but an externall and temporall power to permit and establish that which God commaundeth howe can they bee supreme Theo. Supreme they be for that by Gods Lawe they bee not vnder the Popes checke and correction though to leade on the simple sort with a better shewe you conceale that superiority which the Pope chalengeth ouer Princes and enter your whole action for the Church which woord you knew was more gratious and will in no case bee brought to take our meaning right lest you shoulde bee driuen either to proue your assertion which you can not or to confesse ours which you will not And therefore you wrest the word supreme against the very grounds of our common fayth and rules of your priuate speach to make it seeme false and absurde and then as valiant Captaines you wrestle with the fansies which your selues haue deuised fighting thus with your own shadowes you thinke your Seminaries the only lights and lanternes of Christendome but you must go more syncerely to worke before you can winne the cause Phi. Supreme is superiour to all and subiect to none Theo. And so bee Princes superiour to all men within their Realmes and subiect to no man without their Realmes Phi. What superiour to Christ the Church and all Theo. Haue you neuer done with that idle and eluish obiection Wee compare not man with God nor bodies on earth with spirites in heauen but wee conferre mortall men with their like bearing flesh about them which the sworde may touch and in comparison of them wee say Princes are superiour to all men within their dominions Bishoppes and others and subiect to no man without their dominions Prelate nor Pope to bee commaunded corrected and deposed by their tribunals This is the supremacie which wee attribute to Princes that all men within their Territories shoulde obey their Lawes or abide their pleasures and that no man on earth hath authoritie to take their swordes from them by iudiciall sentence or martiall violence Leaue wrangling and rouing and speake directly to this question Phi. I will if you first graunt that your meaning is not so large as your woordes bee Theo. You would fayne seeme with your eloquent nifles to woorke some masteries but it will not bee Our woordes are no larger than our meaning and both be true Phi. Why supreme is superiour to al none excepted no not Christ himselfe The. And what are these phrases the most holy the most mightie the most blessed which you applie to the Pope do they except Christ or no Phi. If nothing else be added they doe not by rigor of comparison but common vse of speach vnderstandeth them of earthly men and alwayes excepteth first God with whom there can bee none compared and next his Saints which be farre from vs in an other and better life Theo. I crie you mercie You may salute your Romish Pharaoh when you will with the most mightie Priest the most blessed father the chiefe Pastor and many such loftie stiles and wee must come after with salt and spoones and conceaue that Christ is excepted though he bee not because your flatteries bee common and if wee to signifie that Princes by Gods lawe bee not vnder the Popes yoke defende them to bee superiour to all men at home and subiect to no mans Courts or Consistories abroade and therfore call them supreme Gouernours of their owne people and Countries you sounde alarme against vs as if wee went about to defeate Christ of his kingdome and disseism
Canons be not incident to the Princes vocation and therefore no maruell if Princes be raw in those thinges wherewith they be not acquainted And since the danger is great if they command for error their skil not so great but that they may soone misse the truth why should you bee loth that others of deeper iudgement exacter knowledge whom God hath placed to teach both priuate men Princes their duties in those cases should direct moderate the swordes of Princes for feare least they should be missed to the ruine of themselues and many thowsandes with them Theo. We be not loth they should be directed but rather exhort all Princes to take great care and spare no paines to come by faithfull and true direction in those thinges that pertaine to God For if in temporall matters where the losses are but temporal they do nothing without the mature and sound aduise of their graue trustie Counsellours how inexcusable is their negligence if in heauenly things where the bodies soules of them-selues their subiectes may be lost for euer they serue their affectiōs seek not his wil that set them in place gaue them power to maintain his truth safegard his Church Phi. We then agree on both sides that Princes must be directed Theo. We do Phi. If they must be directed ergo by Bishops Theo. Bishops for their calling and learning are the likeliest men to direct them right but yet your ergo doth not hold It is not enough for them to be Bishops they must also be teachers of truth before they may claime to be directours of Princes Phi. Who be more likely to teach truth than Bishops Theo. I said before they were likelie but your conclusion inforceth a necessitie which you can not proue Many Bishops haue taught lies and seduced Princes in the church of God and therefore not their dignitie but their doctrine is it that Princes must regarde for neither Prince nor people stand bound to the persons of men but vnto the truth of God and vnto their teachers so long as they swarue not from truth Phi. And who shall be iudge of truth Theo. Absolute iudge of truth neither Prince nor Priest may chalenge to bee Phi. Why so Theo. God is truth of God I trust no man may be iudge The son of God saith of himself I am truth S. Iohn giueth this record of the spirit of God The spirit is truth Ye can therfore be no iudges of truth vnles ye will be iudges of God Phi. Who shal then be iudge of truth The. Who but Christ Phi. He shal be iudge at the last daie Theo. Hee shall then giue generall and finall iudgement of all men but in the meane time hee onely is the soueraine and supreme iudge of truth The Father hath committed all iudgement to the sonne and my iudgement saith Christ is iust This strife saith Augustine requireth a iudge Iudicet ergo Christus Let Christ be therefore iudge In earth saith Optatus of this matter there can be no iudgement we must seeke for a iudge from heauen But why knocke wee at heauen when as we haue his will here in the Gospell Phi. They mean that Christ speaketh in his church at this day by his word so iudgeth Theo. And we meane that his word is truth and therefore your Bishops can not be iudges of the word of Christ but they must be iudges of Christ himselfe that speaketh by his word which is no small presumption Phi. Shall not the Church be iudge of the Scriptures Theo. My sheepe saith Christ heare my voice they be no iudges of his voice A iudge of the lawe is no obseruer of the law as S. Iames auoucheth and since the whole church is bound to obey the law of God they be no iudges of the law Inferius est nobis quicquid iudicamus It is inferior to vs whatsoeuer we be iudges of Eternam igitur legem mundis animis fas est cognoscere iudicare non fas est The eternall law of God therefore it is lawfull for cleane harts to know it is not lawfull for them to iudge Wee must not saith Augustine to God iudge of so high authoritie neither of the booke which is thine because we submit our vnderstanding to it And againe To the canons of the Scriptures pertaine certaine bookes of the Prophetes and Apostles quos omnino iudicare non audeamus the which in any case wee may not dare to iudge And this is the reason there may be no iudge of truth where no daunger of error is And of the Scriptures S. Austine saith Quod omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est It is a wickednes to make a doubt whether there be any error in them or no therefore there may be no iudges of them but the whole church must be subiect to them and with all humilitie beleeue them Phi. The Bishops be no iudges of the Scriptures whether they bee true or no that as you proue is no doubt and therefore needeth no iudge But in this they be iudges whether the Scriptures be mistaken of others or no. Theo. Then bee they no iudges of truth which is the thing that I first affirmed but of them selues and others which be subiect to errour and ignoraunce Phi. Yet they be iudges of errour though not of trueth Theo. If you take iudging for discerning as the worde doeth often signifie they can not bee teachers of trueth vnlesse they can discerne trueth from errour But onelie God is to limit and appoint by his word what shall stand for truth what for errour With that Bishops haue nothing to do they must heare and beleeue the voice of the great Sheepeheard Christ Iesus as well as the meanest sheepe in his fould Phi. Wee grant you that so you grant vs this that only Bishops bee discerners of truth Theo. A liberall offer You will graunt vs a knowen truth vpon condition that we shall grant you a manifest vntruth Make earth and ashes if you dare to bee iudges of their Lord and maister which is in heauen or deny Bishops when they be at the highest to be the seruants of Christ yea happie be they if they be so much In these things we neither stande at your almes nor aske your consents we be right sure and dare not deny them therefore our assertion is without contradiction yours is vtterly false that only Bishops be discerners of truth For as Bishops ought to discern which is truth before they teach so must the people discern who teacheth right before they beleeue Phi. Shal the people iudge their Pastors you be so new fangled that you say you know not what Theo. We haue the words and warrant of the holy Ghost for that which we say Beleeue not euery Spirit but trie the Spirits whether they be of god for many false prophets are
loosed in heauen and what she did bind in earth shoulde bee bound in heauen to witte that whosoeuer would not beleeue his sinnes might bee forgiuen in the Church should not haue them forgiuen and whosoeuer would beleeue it and depart from his sinnes by amending his life in the bosome of the same Church shoulde by that faith and conuersion be healed And neuer writer since Christs time did euer extend the power of the keyes vnto any thing saue vnto the forgiuing and retayning of sinnes Phi. No more doe wee this onely we adde that when Princes are bounde in earth for their sinnes they loose that interest which they had in their kingdomes Theo. That position you vndertooke to proue by the holy Scriptures but as yet you be wide you still suppose it and doe not proue it Phi. Now in the newe Testament all Christes sheepe without exception bee they Princes be they poore if they be Christian men are put to Peters feeding gouernement Now the keyes of heauen be deliuered to Christs Vicar in earth to let in to locke out to bind to loose to punish to pardon Now we be coÌ„manded euery one be we kings be we Caesars to obey our Prelats and Pastors and to bee subiect to them as to those that must make accompt to God for our soules wherein what Christian Prince may except himselfe Theo. You role from text to text abusing the woordes and peruerting the sense as you goe and when all is saide you bee euen as neere as you were at first before you began For what if al these places do concerne Princes as well as others wil you thence inferre that princes may be deposed Then these must be your argumentes Princes must bee taught ergo Princes may bee deposed Prieâ—tes may exclude them from the kingdom of heauen ergo likewise from their kingdomes on earth Princes must obey sounde doctrine comming from their Pastours mouthes ergo if they refuse they may be deposed Surely such reasons set not them besides their seates but you rather besides your wittes for what apparance of trueth haue these ridiculous and impious mockeries Feede my sheepe that is depose Princes I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdom of heauen that is I will giue thee the thrones of earthly kinges Be aduised by your leaders and yeeld to their good perswasions for they watch ouer your soules that is obey the Pope when he thrusteth you from your goods landes and liues Had you but one dramme of shame or sense in you you woulde neuer sende vs such sottish and vnsauorie sequeles Phi. They be of your framing we sent them not Theo. We annexe the conclusion which you must and would infer to the places which you alleadge and in so doing we can not abuse you Out of the 21. of S. Iohn what woulde you cite but this charge to Peter feed my sheepe In the 16. of S. Matthew what finde you there but the promise of our Sauiour I wil giue thee the keies of the kingdom of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou bindest or losest in earth shal be bound and losed in heauen All the wordes which the 13. to the Hebrewes hath for your purpose are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yâ— is be perswaded by their words and giue place to their admonitions which watch ouer your soules Nowe what your conclusion is and must be neither can any man doubt nor do your selues dissemble For the fift chapter of your immodest and vntrue defence of English Catholikes as you call them proposeth purposely handleth the depriuation of Princes for heresie and falling from the faith So that helpe the matter how you can with your glozes and phrases these be your antecedeÌ„ts and this is your consequent Phi. Well if Peter must feede Princes why may not Peter depose Princes Theo. Taking their Crownes from them is not preaching the Gospell vnto them which Christ ment by feeding Phi. But Peter may correct them as well as feede them and depriuation is but correction Theo. Any Pastor may reproue them if they withstand the trueth that bindeth them in earth shutteth heauen against them But other correction on the goodes landes or bodies of priuate men preachers may not exercise much lesse intermeddle with the Seates and Scepters of Princes Phi. Be we kinges be we Caesars we are commaunded to obey our Prelates and Pastours and to be subiect to them Theo. Princes and all other christians must be reuerent and obedient to the word and Sacramentes which God hath put in the mouthes and handes of his messengers other subiection to Prelates or Pastors is none due Phi. And if they refuse to be subiect to the word or Sacramentes shall not Pastors punish them though they be Princes Theo. Let them sinke in their sinnes and leaue them to God that is punishment enough Phi. Shal they goe no farther Theo. Externall or corporall meanes by losse of life landes or goodes God hath not allowed any Pastour to compell or punish his sheepe withall Phi. Then may Princes freely despise both the word and the Preacher Theo. If you call that freedome to fall into the handes of the liuing God which S. Paul saith is a fearefull thing Whosoeuer shall not receiue you nor heare your wordes when you depart out of that house or that citie shake off the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall bee easier for them of the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement than for that citie Is not this reuenge sufficient for Princes that turne from the truth vnlesse you also must be fingering of their crownes and treadding on their necks Phi. That would terrifie them more than the threatning of helfire Theo. It may be that contenteth your appetites better but God hath reserued the punishment of Princes to himselfe and not assigned it ouer vnto you Howbeit why doe you wander thus from the question You should proue by the worde of God that Princes may be deposed Why then doe you linger and make so many profers before you come to your purpose Phi. Will you haue a plaine proofe out of the new Testament that Princes may be deposed Theo. That is it wee looked for all this while Phi. Pastours haue full authoritie to forbid vs the companie of heretikes blasphemers and idolaters and such like and not so much as to salute them much more not to obey them Theo. Is this your best discretion We must not be companions with idolaters ergo we must not be subiects to Princes Phi. If they be conuicted of heresie or idolatrie Theo. Put you no difference betwixt familiars and subiectes Phi. If we may not be familiar with them much lesse subiect vnder them Theo. Are you not low drawen when you come with such dregges Phi. Iest not at it but answere it Theo. Be earnest in any case It is a very profound and substantiall reason Phi. Substantial or
three admonitions and the last publike after the which if that take not place we shal be excused before God if we no longer accept him that did vs wrong in the number of our brethren Let him be to thee as an Ethnike and a Publicane that is sayth S. Augustine Noli illum deputare iam in numero fratrum tuorum nec ideo tamen salus eius negligenda Do not accompt him in the number of thy brethren and yet his saluation must not bee neglected For the Ethnikes themselues that is heathen men and Pagans wee doe not recken to bee our brethren and yet we seeke to saue them By this you may doe well to erect a Court where euery subiect may sewe his Prince for priuate iniuries and to make your selues Iudges of all such matters that if the Prince refuse your order you may take his Crowne from him Is not this thinke you good diuinitie for a Christian Common-wealth Phi. If hee that will not heare the Church in priuate offences betweene man and man must bee taken and vsed as an heathen how much more he that will not heare nor obey the Church in publike and haynous sinnes against God Theo. Take the place howe you will of priuate or publike iniuries or sinnes against man or against God no such thing is consequent as you would seeme to inferre If hee heare not the Church whosoeuer whensoeuer in what cause soeuer graunt all this that your antecedent may bee the freer from checke or chaunce what will you conclude Phi. He must bee to vs as an heathen Theo. And what then must heathen Princes bee depriued of their Crownes and Scepters Was not Caesar an heathen when our Sauiour willed all men to giue to Caesar the thinges which were Caesars Was hee not an heathen Magistrate before whome Christ stoode when hee sayde Thou couldest haue no power ouer mee vnlesse it were giuen thee from aboue Were they not heathen Princes to whome Peter and Paul required and charged all Christian Princes to bee subiect without all resistance Did not the Church of Christ taught by them so to doe submit her selfe for the space of three hundered yeeres to heathen Princes and those terrible and most bloudie tyrants Phi. We deny not this Theo. You can not If then disobayers of the Church must be vsed no worse than heathens and publicanes ergo they must neither bee spoiled of their goodes nor afflicted in their bodies nor remoued from their seates if they be Princes For these things by Gods Law the Church might not offer to Pagans nor Publicans Phi. This that Christ saith if he heare not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnicke and a Publicane is by the iudgement of S. Augustine more grieuous than if he were slaine with the sword consumed with fier or torne with wilde beastes Theo. And why because the iudgement of God to the which he is reserued shall bee more heauie to him than any humane torments can be And this maketh rather against you than with you For if the neglecter of the Church shal be so grieuously punished at Gods hands why doe you challenge to your selues the corporal correcting and chastising of such as disobay the Church And so Saint Augustine expoundeth himselfe It is by and by added saith he by our Sauiour Amen I say vnto you What you bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen that we should vnderstand how grieuous a punishment it is to bee left vnpunished by man and to be reserued to the iudgement of God Phi. The Church hath decreed that heretikes shall not beare rule ouer Catholikes and this voice of the Church all men are bound to heare vnlesse they will be counted for Pagans and Infidels Theo. First the Church can make no such decree next the Church of Christ neuer made any such Decree Phi. May not the Church make that Decree Theo. Shee may not Her power concerneth the soules of men and not their bodies and neuer goeth beyond the word and Sacraments Shee may not intermeddle with the temporal states and inheritances of Priuate men against their willes much lesse with the thrones and swords of Princes The Church cannot giue leaue that children shall disobay their Parents nor seruants their Masters nor weomen their husbandes because God hath already commanded they shall obay whose precepts the Church is with al reuerence to receiue and with all diligence to obserue and not to frustrate or hinder the least iote of his heauenly will and Testament If any particular places or persons attempt the contrarie they cease to be the Church of GOD in that they wilfully reiect and change the worde of God S. Augustine saith well Non debet ecclesia se Christo praeponere The Church may not preferre her selfe before Christ. Neither may we beleeue the true Churches them selues vnlesse they say and doe those things that are consonant to the Scriptures Yea we must accurse the Angels in heauen if they should do otherwise The whole Church oweth the same dutie to all and euery the precepts of God that ech priuate person doth And therfore shee may not dissolue nor disappoint the least of them Now the Church her selfe is commanded by the mouth of Christ and his Apostles to honor and obay Princes For these precepts be general touch the whole church Giue to Caesar the things that be Caesars Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers Submit your selues to the king as the chiefest For so is the will of God neither Monke Priest Prelate Pope Euangelist or Apostle exempted as in the place where I haue already shewed Ergo shee hath no right to dishonour or depose Princes nor to licence their subiects to resist them at her will and on her warrant which is the grounde that you build on Phi. They be but flatterers of Princes that so say or heretikes that so thinke that the ministers of Christes most deare spouse of his very mysticall bodie his kingdome house on earth whom at his dâ—parture hence he did indowe with most ample commissioÌ„ and sent foorth with that authoritie that his father before gaue vnto him haue no power ouer Princes to denounce or declare them to be violators of Gods and the Churches Lawes nor to punish them either spiritually or temporally not to excommunicate them nor to discharge the people of their oth and obedience towards such as neither by Gods Law nor mans a true Christian may obay Theo. If we knewe not your accustomed brauerie you might somwhat trouble vs with your insolent vanities but now we haue so good experience of your fierce lookes and faint harts that we neede not feare your force Bring somwhat besides your own conceit that the Pope may depose Princes and then call vs flatterers and heretikes at your pleasure If not take heede you proue not presumpteous and stately rebels against God and man I winne you be the
the Princes or nayle vp cloth of Tissue where the Prince is not and say it is a chayre of state would you bee so foolish as to regard either of them or shoulde you not dishonour the king if you did reuerence them since they bee not such thinges as the Prince accepteth or vseth for his but other mens counterfaites Phi. I speake of that Chaire where the Prince did sit and of that Seale which the Prince did send Theo. I knowe you did and therefore I refused your similitude as vnlike the matter in question betwixt vs because images are neither places of Christes presence nor witnesses of his will as Seates and seales are vnto Princes no nor ordayned allowed or admitted by Christ to haue any credite or vse about his heauenly person or pleasure but only proposed by men of a naturall and kind affection as they thought towards Christ though cleane without warrant and so without thankes from him For hee of purpose tooke his bodily presence from the eyes of men that hee might dwell in their heartes by fayth and to teach vs to honour him not by that proportion of face which the painter would drawe but by that abundance of loue grace and mercie which hee hath extended on vs and layde in stoare for vs and which no corporall eyes can behold nor colours expresse but onely the hearing of his woorde and woorking of his spirite can lighten and perswade the heart of man to conceiue and beleeue Phi. Is it not thankes woorthie with God to haue alwayes the shape of his sonne before our eyes that wee may honour him with our hearts Theo. To honour him with your heartes and to haue him at all times in your mindes is religious and requisite but to make light of those meanes which hee hath prescribed to nourish your fayth and continue the memorie of him-selfe to seeke out others of your owne fit to please your senses not to resemble his greatnes or goodnes this is neither acceptable vnto God nor profitable for your selues Phi. To remember Christ cannot bee euill Theo. Not to remember him till you looke on a picture can not bee good Your heartes ought alwayes to bee lifted vp vnto him that whether you eate or drinke wake or sleepe or whatsoeuer you doe in woorde or deede you may doe all in the name of the Lord Iesu giuing thankes alwayes for all thinges vnto God the father in the name of our Lorde Iesus Christ. You must not tary for the execution of this precept till you see an Image But all your actions woordes and thoughtes must bee directed to the prayse of his glory and honour of his name This if you put in bre you shall neede no painted nor carued Image to bring you in mynde of his mercies The benefites and blessings within you without you and on euery side of you which GOD for Christes sake bestoweth on you are so many that you can hardly forget him vnlesse you also forget the earth that beareth you the heauen that couereth you the day that guydeth your feete the night that giueth you rest the meates that you feede on and the breath that you liue by yea your owne bodies which hee woonderfully made and soules which hee preciously bought All these thinges and all other thinges in heauen and earth you must drowne in vtter obliuion before you can inferre that Images bee needefull to put vs in mynde of our dueties to GOD. And since without Images you can and must remember the Father that created and the Holy Ghost that â—anctified you why shoulde you forget the sonne that redeemed you more than the other except you haue Images at your elbowes to kindle you appetites But this is nothing to the worshipping of Images which you should proue to bee Catholike Though there were an historicall vse in painting the shape of our Sauiour yet is it no pietie to worshippe the picture Graunt it might be vsed for remembrance for religion it may not and therefore you are all this while besides the marke Philand You denie both the hauing and woorshipping of Images to bee Catholique Wee prooue the hauing of them to bee necessarie by the fruite and profite that commeth from them namely the instruction of the ignorant in the storie of their saluation the putting vs in often remembraunce of our Sauiour and the stirring vp our deuotion with more feruencie The worshipping of them wee proue with more facilitie for if hee that honoureth the Image honour the person himselfe thereby represented as S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Chrysostome and S. Ambrose doe affirme then the worship which is done to the Image of Christ passeth vnto Christ himselfe and by consequent if it bee lawfull to adore and honour Christ it is not vnlawfull to doe the like to his Image Besides wee can prooue that adoration of Images is a tradition deliuered from the Apostles and obserued in all Churches and that the Scripture it selfe supporteth vs in this point as the learned epistle of Adrian the Bishoppe of Rome to Constantine and Irene doeth largely shewe and for the credite of the cause wee haue a general Councell eight hundreth yeres old to say as much in euery point as I affirme and more Theo. Wee maruell not to see you so deepely deceiued and strongly deluded as you bee such is the iust iudgement of God on all that admit not the loue of the trueth but haue pleasure in vnrighteousnes You rest on the vanities forgeries of such as were enclined to the same error before you not examining their proofes nor considering their reportes but presuming their euident follies to bee pregnant authorities for you whith is euer the next way to seduce others and to bee seduced your selues As touching the shew which you make of Scriptures Apostolike Tradition Churches Fathers Councels it is a childish and friuolous vaunt The fathers which you quote are abused the Apostles and their Churches belied the Scriptures depraued and wrested the Councell which you call generall reiected as wicked and diligently refuted in the same age by the West Bishoppes Of these emptie and vnluckie Maskes the more you bring the lesse you wynne Phi. Wee loose nothing so long as you lode vs onely with words Theo. If your proofes bee vaine my woordes be true Looke you therefore to the soundnesse of that which you alleage otherwise your owne burden will ouerpresse you Philand The collection which I made out of Saint Basill and others is very sure Saint Basill sayth Honos Imaginis in ipsum prototypum redit The honour doone to the Image redoundeth to the principall that is thereby represented S. Athanasius Qui Imaginem adorat in ipsa Imperatorem adorat He that reuerenceth the Image honoureth therein the Emperour And S. Chrysostome Knowest thou not that hee which hurteth the Emperours Image defaceth the Imperiall dignitie it selfe And so S. Ambrose Hee that
is adored in the mysteries and on the Altar Why shoulde hee not bee adored in all places and in all his giftes and for all the monumentes of his grace and mercie bequeathed vs in this life that he may prepare vs for the next And if this rule bee generall howe great cause haue wee to adâ—re him in the water where hee clenseth vs from our sinnes and at the table where hee feedeth and strengthneth our soules and spirites with their proper nourishment which is the precious ransome that was paide to recouer vs from death and hell and to bring vs to his immortall light and blisse What Christian heart recounting his aboundant goodnesse and fatherly readynesse with his owne stripes to heale vs with his owne bloode to washe vs with his owne death to quicken vs will not bee resolued into prayers and teares to yeelde all honour and adoration to him that doeth offer vs these treasures at and on his table Phi. These bee goodly words to bleare mens eyes where in deede you denie him to bee present eyther at or on the Altar Theo. Wee confesse him to bee there present with all his giftes and blessinges to him that will beholde him with the eye of faith and reach out the hand of his soule to apprehende him in greater might and maiestie than you doe when you shroude him with your formes of breade and wine and pale him rounde with a pixe as it were with a sepulchre Mary locall dimension or inclusion within the compasse of the host or chalice wee appoint him none His trueth is annexed to the Sacramentes and his power vnited to the creatures after a wonderfull and inspeakeable manner by the mighty working of the holy ghost but yet wee must not direct his diuine honour and seruice to anie part of the Altar or circumference of the visible creatures wee must rather Lyft vp our hearts as the faithfull were alwayes admonished in this sacrament and take heede that wee doe not basely bende our eyes on the bread or wine to seeke Christ in them and vnderneath them much lesse worshippe them in steede of him which is the next way to dishonor him and deifie them against the very rules and Principles of our faith Phi. But S. Chrysostom saith We adore him on the altar as the Sages did in the manger and S. Nazianzene saith of his sister Gorgonia she called on him which is worshipped on the Altar Theo. What wordes soeuer Chrysostom and Nazianzene vse to expresse the place where Christ is serued and adored yet this is euident that they attribute adoration not to the visible element or sacrament but vnto Christ who may well be saide to be worshipped on the Table or altar for so much as there is the fruite force and eâ—fect of his heauenly grace and trueth proposed vnto all and from thence the prayers and thankes of all are offered vnto him by the religious heart and voice of the Pastor that standeth at the Lordes table to bee the mouth of al and yet you deale vntruely with both those fathers as you do almost with al the rest of the writers that passe your pen. Chrysostomes wordes are Tu non in praecepe id sed in Altarivides Thou seest his bodie not in a manger but on the Altar Now betweene seeing adoring there is good difference if you bee not so blinde that you can see nothing Phi. He speaketh it to that ende that we should adore it as the Sages did when they found him in a manger Theo. He hath some wordes tending to this ende that we should adore the body of Christ since the wicked and barbarous Magi did yeelde him that honour but he ioyneth no such wordes togither as you cite he saith not we adore him on the altar but let vs that be citizens of heauen at least imitate those Barbarians Phi. That is in adoring Christ. Theo. As if we doubted of that But where is on the altar which you haue added of your owne without your authors consent Phi. He sayeth thou seest him on the Altar Theo. But neither with corporall eyes nor vnder the formes of bread and wine And that well appeareth in the very same place when he saith Ascende igitur ad coeli portas tunc quod dicimus intueberis Climbe vp to the gates of heauen and then thou shalt see that which we now say To which end he told them before that becomming Eagles in this life they must fly vppe to heauen it selfe or rather aboue the heauens For where the carcas is saith Christ there wil the Eagles be The Lordes body is the carkas in respect of the death which hee suffered Eagles Christ calleth vs to shew vs that he must flie on high which will come to this body euer mount vpward haue the eye of his mind most bright to behold the sonne of righteousnes He that teacheth you to ascend to the highest heauens there to adore Christ neuer ment you should adore the hâ—st in the Priestes handes in steede of Christ and as hee neuer ment it so he neuer spake it though you haue plaied some ligier de main to make his wordes sound to that sense Phi. Nazianzenes sister called on him that is worshipped vpon the altar Theo. She did so but when she made her prayers to Christ there was neither Priest by nor pixe there that you should dreame shee made her prayers to the host Nazianzene saith shee went to the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the dark of the night kneeling close to yâ— altar she did inuocate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 him that is honoured thereon not meaning the host which at that instant was not on the Altar but Christ who is truly said to be honoured on the altar or Table because his mercies are there layde foorth in the mysteries and the prayers and supplications of all the faythfull offered chiefely from that place vnto him though hee sit in heauen according to the materiall substance of his humane bodie Phi. He is honored on the Altar that is say you the Altar is the place whence honour is giuen vnto him what sleights you haue to auoyd the fathers Theo. Haue you no worse to enforce them and you shal do them lesse wrong than you doe When the woman of Samaria sayd to Christ Our fathers worshipped God in this hill did she meane that God was in the hill or that the worshippe was there dâ—ne vnto him When it was said to Moses Ye shal serue God vpon this mountaine was that mountaine before hand allotted to God or to his seruice So Christ is honoured on earth though hee bee in heauen because the earth is the place where hee is honored and serued And yet wee doubt not but Christ himselfe is also present euen in the mysteries and on the Altar or Table of the Lorde albeit not in that corporall and carnall manner which you conceiue
which I will giue is my fleshe giuen for the life of the world Hee that eateth mee shall liue through mee hee abideth in mee and I in him I am the liuing bread which came downe from heauen if any man eate of this bread hee shall liue for euer Most delightful bread heale thou the tast of my heart that I may feele the sweetenesse of thy loue Let mine heart eate thee and with thy present relesse let the bowels of my soule bee replenished Angels eate thee with full mouth let man that is a pilgrime on earth eate thee as his weakenesse will suffer him that hee faint not in the way hauing this prouision for his iourney Holy bread liuing bread beautifull bread which camest from heauen and giuest life to the worlde come into my heart and clense mee from all filth of flesh and spirit Enter into my soule heale and sanctifie me within and without No man earnester in this point than S. Austen This visible bread confirmeth the stomack confirmeth the bellie There is an other bread which confirmeth the hart because it is the bread of the hart There is a wine that doth rightly cheere the hart can do nothing but cheere the hart Therfore vnderstand so of the bread as thou doest of the wine inwardly hūger inwardly thirst blessed are they which hunger thirst after righteousnes for they shal be satisfied That breade is righteousnes that wine is righteousnesse is trueth and Christ is the trueth I am saieth hee the liuing bread which came from heauen and I am the vine you are but braunches To beleeue in him this is to eate the liuing bread hee that beleeueth eateth Man is inuisibly fedde because hee is inuisibly regenerated He is inwardly in soule a babe inwardly in minde renewed Looke in what part man is newe borne in that part is hee fedde The vnbeleeuing Iewes were farre from this heauenly breade neither knewe they howe to hunger for it the iawes of their hearts were dull and this bread requireth the hunger of the inward man Take heed brethren eate you this heauenly bread spiritually bring innocencie to the altar Eate life and drinke life For then is the bodie and blood of the Lord life to each man when that which is visiblie taken in the Sacrament is in very trueth spiritually eaten spiritually drunken When Christ is eaten life is eaten neither when wee eate him doe wee make peeces of him In deede in the Sacrament it is so and the faithfull knowe howe they eate the fleshe of Christ euerie man taketh his peece Wherefore grace it selfe is termed peeces Christ is eaten by peeces in the sacrament and yet hee remaineth whole in heauen hee remayneth whole in thine heart Prouide not your iawes but your heart Thence is this Supper commended Beholde wee beleeue in Christ wee receiue him with our fayth In taking wee know what wee should thinke wee take him but a litle and our heart is replenished Macarius In the church is offered breade and wine the samplar of his body and blood and they which are partakers of the visible breade doe spiritually eate the Lordes fleshe Emissenus When thou goest vppe to the reuerende Altar to bee filled with spirituall meats by fayth beholde honour and wonder at the sacred bodie and bloode of thy God touch it with thy mynde take it with the hand of thyne heart and chiefely prouide that the inwarde manne swallowe the whole This Doctrine continued eight hundreth yeares after Christ. Bertram then liuing is witnesse sufficient The bodie and blood of Christ if thou consider the outward appearance is a creature subiect to mutation and corruption but if thou waigh the vertue of the mysterie it is life performing immortalitie to those that receiue it As touching the visible creature the mysteries feed the body but by the vertue of a mightier substance they feede sanctify the soules of the faithful What we should eat what we should drinke the holy Ghost expresseth by the Prophet Tast and see howe sweete the Lord is Doeth that breade corporally tasted or that wine sipped shewe howe sweete the Lorde is whatsoeuer tast that hath it is corporall and pleaseth the iawes Hee doeth therefore inuite vs to vse the relesse of our spirituall tast in that breade and drinke to dreame of no corporall thing but to conceiue all to bee spirituall This meate confirmeth our heart and this drinke cheereth the heart of man sayeth the Prophet By the which it is euident that nothing in this meate nothing in this drinke must bee corporally taken but the whole spirituallie considered For the soule which is ment by mans heart in this place is not fedde with corporall meate or drinke but is refreshed and nourished with the worde of God Faith beleeueth that which is not seene and spiritually feedeeth the soule and cheereth the heart and giueth eternall life whiles wee marke not that which feedeth the bodie not that which is pressed with teeth not that which is brused in peeces but that which is spiritually taken with faith For this is a spirituall foode and a spirituall drinke spiritually feeding the soule Paschasius commeth after Bertram in age but ioyneth with him in the same confession of trueth The diuine mysteries our inwarde man receiueth through the grace of Christ with vnderstanding and by them is hee made one bodie with Christ through the power of faith The fleshe and blood of Christ because they bee thinges spirituall are fullie receiued by fayth and vnderstanding It is not lawfull to eate Christ with teeth Christ is the meate of Angels and this Sacrament is truely his fleshe and his blood which fleshe and blood man eateth and drinketh spirituallie And so by what food the Angels liue by that also man liueth because in this that man receiueth all is diuine and spirituall Wee drinke spiritually and wee eate the spirituall flesh of Christ in which is beleeued to bee eternall life All that wee eate is spirituall The power of faith and vnderstanding which doubteth nothing of Christ doeth tast and relesse the whole spiritually Otherwise but for faith and vnderstanding what finde they which tast these thinges besides breade and wine The visible quantitie must not bee esteemed in this mysterie but the power of the spirituall Sacrament Wee must not respect howe much of the quantitie is pressed with our teeth but how much is receiued through faith and loue Therefore my sonne when thou commest to the participation of this mysterie OPEN THE BOSOM OF THY MINDE cleanse thy conscience and receiue thou not what a morsell containeth but AS MVCH AS THY FAITH APPREHENDETH Fulbertus a thousand yeres after Christ treadeth the same path That which appeared outwardly to be the substance of breade and wine is nowe made the bodie and blood
of Christ inwardly Tast therefore and see howe sweete the meate is but learne before what manner of tast it hath It beareth the tast of Angels foode hauing in it a mysticall and pleasaunt relesse which thou canst not discerne with thy mouth but mayest vnderstande with thine inwarde affection Holde readie the mouth of thy fayth open the iawes of hope stretch out the bowels of loue and take the breade of life which is the nourishment of the inwarde man Tast I saie the sweetenesse of this heauenly banquette but lothe the smatche of the earthlie fruites For from the faith of the inwarde man commeth the tasting of the diuine iuyce whiles by the taking of the healthful Eucharist CHRIST FLOWETH INTO THE BOWELS OF THE SOVLE OF THE RECEAVER AND THE RELIGIOVS MINDE ADMITTETH HIM INTO HER CHAST AND INNERMOST ROOMES There shall neede no long discourse to proue that these Catholike Fathers teach in the Lordes Supper a spirituall kinde of eating the fleshe of Christ by faith and vnderstanding as wee doe not a corporall with teeth and iawes as you doe The places bee manie the wordes plaine you can not shift them vnlesse you will desperatly take fleshe for spirite bodie for soule chamming for beleeuing earth for heauen yea a dumme and dead creature for the liuing and euerlasting sonne of God which were not onely sensible blindnesse but in excusable madnes Phi. The spiritual eating wee doe not deny but we adde to that a corporall because the soul may bee partaker of Christ by faith notwithstanding the mouth receiue the very flesh of Christ vnder the formes of bread and wine Theo. This is your onely refuge that is left and this will not helpe you For examine this answere a while and you shall soone see the weakenesse of it My flesh is truely meate saith Christ and my blood is truely drinke Hee that doubteth of this we holde him accursed you doe the like thus farre we agree Mary for what part of man soule or bodie this meate was prouided in this we dissent You say for the body no lesse than for the soule wee say for the soule and not for the body So saide Chrysostome before vs. This meate feedeth not the body but the soule So saide Ambrose It is no bodilie but Ghostlie meate So said Augustine Prepare not your iawes but your harts thence is this super commended so saide Cyprian This is the proper nourishment of the spirit and not common to the flesh Now that which is eaten is meate And therefore if Christ bee no meate for the bodie but onely for the soule assuredly Christ is not eaten of our bodies but of soules only Next you confesse that the mortall and sinnefull bodies of men may not bee substantially nourished with the glorious and immortall flesh of Christ and eating is altogither in vaine euen of the flesh of Christ it selfe without norishing al the fathers with one consent teach this to be the end of caring the fleshe of Christ that we should be thereby norished to life eternal Why then striue you for a corporal eating where your selues dare not defend any corporal norishing Why distract you eating frō norishing by referring them one to the body the other to the soule which the Fathers alwayes ioyned applied to one the self same part of man Many mothers saith Chrysost. deliuered their infants whē they are born to other norces which he would not do but norisheth vs with his own body And in the same place where he saith Ipsum vides ipsum tangis ipsum comedis thou seest him thou touchest him thou eatest him addeth Ea namque re nos alimur quam Angeli videntes tremunt For we are nourished with that thing which the Angels tremble when they behold And so the rest of the Fathers call it not onely meate to eate but nutrimentum alimoniam norishment food to keepe the receiuer in plight and good liking So that that part of man doth not eat the fleshe of Christ which is not norished with it And since you dare not auouch that our bodies are really nourished with the flesh of Christ why shoulde you hold that our mouthes do reallie eate him Lastly with what one meate can you fit both the bodies and soules of men That which entereth the body must bee locall and corporall That which feedeth the soule must bee spirituall and intellectuall The soule hath no locall receites nor corporall instrumentes for her kinde of eating but onely faith and vnderstanding So that if the fleshe of Christ in this mysterie bee materiall and locall how canne it feede the soule If it bee spirituall and intellectuall howe can it bee chammed with teeth or closed in the streites of the stomack Local not local corporal not corporal be plaine contradictions and by no meanes incident to the naturall flesh of Christ. One it must needs be both it cannot be though you would sweate out your hearts with wrangling And that Christ is not eaten with teeth or mouth the Ghospell in plaine wordes auoucheth with vs. Whosoeuer eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud hath eternall life my flesh is meat indeed my bloud is drinke in deed hee that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud dwelleth in me and I in him saith our Sauiour The wicked liue not by Christ neither abide in Christ and therefore by the verie determination of the Lorde him-self they neither eate his flesh nor drinke his bloude Runne nowe to your distinction of corporall and spirituall eating when you will but so long as these wordes stand written in the Ghospell he that eateth me euen he shall liue by me the Godly will soone conclude that SVCH AS LIVE NOT BY CHRIST DOE NOT EATE CHRIST and so that corporall eating of Christes flesh which you would erect common to the faithfull and faithlesse to be no kind of eating at al notwithstanding they receiue the materiall and external elementes of this mysterie Phi. In spite of all your places and proofes there is a Sacramentall eateing of Christs flesh with mouth and iawes besides your spirituall eating it with faith and spirite which you could not doe vnlesse it were really present therefore you doe not well to beguile the simple in this sort with refuting one trueth by an other whereas the fathers confessed both Theo. In spite of all your late deuises euasions the flesh of Christ is not truely eaten with Capernites teeth or Iesuits iawes neither do the fathers auouch any such thing saue in that sense which I last declared that the signes so called are eaten of the wicked with their mouthes and throates but of the flesh it selfe and bloud of Christ they plainly affirme the contrarie S. Augustine expounding the wordes of our sauiour hee that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud remaineth in me and I in him saith
els by feeding mice with miracles and leaâ—ing meâ— in manâ—â—â—â— dauâ—ger â—â—â—pen Idolatrie For what is it say you that miâ—â—â—â—â— â—hen they lâ—ght on your host what aunswer make you to this question that your master proposed and your pewfellowes striue for Will you say with Guiâ—mundus and Walden two principall vpholders of your new found presence that when mice gnaw the Sacrament it is but a trick of deceptio visus wee thinke they doe so but in deede they doe not so she poore mice be otherwise occupied our sight is deceiued They must needes be verie louing and deuout chickens of Antichrists broad that will suffer you to pul out their eies and â—elceâ—e that you say though they see the contrarie To such men you may soone perswade what Religion you list but the wise reader will neuer be led with such monsterous fansies Will you take part with Innocentius and others that statim desinit esse Sacramentum ex quo à mure tangitur it ceaseth to be a Sacrament as soone as anie mouse or other â—east toucheth it and the bodie of Christ leaueth that host for euer Then besides that you prouâ—de miracles to faâ—te mice and nourâ—sh them with empty shewes you must before you may worship any such host as hath beene reserued which is common with you you musâ— I say caâ—l beastes birds wormes and flies coâ—â—m nobis and examine them by Commission whether any of them touched your sacrament Else how can you be suâ—e that Christ is there present For if your Sacrament were but pecked by some bird or mâ—lâ—d by some â—â—â—se Christ is departed and the shape of bread is adored by you with diuine honour as if it were the sonne of God which is palpable and indefensable 〈◊〉 â—â—â—ry Like you neither of these bold and blind ghesses Indeed they be rather sickâ—â—â— dreames than graue mens answersâ— yet if these please you not you must 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 be driuen to say with Alâ—xander and Antonius that the flesh of Christ descendeth into the bellies of myâ—â— dogges and swinâ— as well as into the bodâ—es of wicked and vngodly â—eceiuers which whether it be worse thaâ— carnall and caperniticall let the sober and discreeâ—e â—eader pronounce for 〈◊〉 Phi. You may not doubt in 〈◊〉 church but some things are amâ—sse Theo. It goeâ—h haâ—d wiâ—h your church when these 〈…〉 amisse Farre otherwise did the learned and auncient fathers thinke and speake of this mysterie They taught christ to be present not in â—â—â—sh but in grace not in reall and corporall existence but in spirituall and fruitfull â—ffâ—cience They prepared for â—â—m not their iawes and bellies but their mindes and harts They feâ— him not downe from heauen to spred him on a patene and shrowd him in a pixe but exalted all men to mount alâ—ft with the winges of faith and there aboue in heauen not here belowe in earth to behold the brightnes of his glorie and tast the sweetnes of his mercie In proposing vrging repeating which doctrine wee finde them most carefull and diligent most earnest and vehement and that if nothing else will serue to conuince your nouelties For as that part of man which eateth the flesh of Christ euerteth your reall presence because no locall or corporall substaunce can enter or seede the soulâ— and the trueth of Christes flesh in this mysterie by the generall consent of all ages and churches doeth enter and feede the soule so the place whither wee must ascend before wee can eate the Lords flesh doth clearly confute the same Where Christ is present thither must our hearts be directed when they are prepared to eate Christ But the church of God in her publike prayers the catholike Fathers in their writinges neuer taught the faithfull to sâ—t their affections on the thinges before them but to lift vp their hearts from the Lords â—able to the highest heauens where Christ sate at the right hand of his Father Ergo neither shee beleeued nor they professed that Christ was really closed vnder the formes of bread wine Which point dislike you Philander or which thinke you best to deny Shoulde our hearts be turned from the place where Christ is present I trust you bee more respectfull of God and your christian dutie than to say that the mindes and hearts of christian men may bee turned from Christ or from the place where Christ is Should the people turne their hearts to your host and chalice looking there to find Christ Why then did S. Paul teach vs to seeke those thinges which are aboue where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God and to set our affections on heauenly thinges not on thinges which are on earth as where Christ is not to be found Why did the primatiue church in this sacrament alwayes criâ— Sursum corda Lift vppe your hearts and the rest answere habemus ad Dominum we lift them vppe vnto the Lord Why did the learned and ancient Fathers teach the godly not to regard the thinges proposed on the Lordes table but to mount aboue the skies with the spirituall winges of faith there to fasten on the Lordes fleshe as Eagles and there to receiue the cup of the new Testament Were the fleshe of Christ really placed on your altars as you tel vs why should they skip him there corporallie present and leade the people to seeke for him so farre that their bodies by no meanes coulde attaine to the place but onely their mindes and spirits Ambrose There is a bodie of which it was saide my fleshe is meat in deede About this bodie are the true Eagles which houer about it with spirituall winges The soules of the righteous are therefore compared to Eagles because they flie high and leaue these places or thinges below We touch not Christ with corporall handling but by faith Therefore neither on the earth nor in the earth nor after the flesh ought we to seek Christ if we will find him Chrysostom That dreadfull sacrifice doth lead vs to this that in this life becomming Eagles we should flie vp to heauen or rather aboue the heauens For where the carcasse is thither wil the Eagles Nowe the Lordes body is the carcasse by reason of his death Eagles he calleth vs to shew that he which commeth to this bodie must flie aloft and haue nothing to do with the earth but euer mount vpward behold the bright sun of righteousnes with the piercing eie of his mind This table is for agles not for â—houghs Ierom Let vs ascend with the Lord into the great parlour dâ—cked cleane aboue in heauenâ— receiue at his hands the cup of the new Testament there keepe our passouer with him Paschasius If we be willing to receiue these things with Christ let vs ascend aboue into the parlour of life Let vs mount vpward because they which staie below on earth drinke not sweete wine with Christ
but the poyson of Dragons vnhappily with Iudas Therefore sayth Paul sauor you those things which are aboue not the things which are on earth For this cup of the new Testament is not any where receiued but aboue in heauen Where the carkaâ—â—e is thither will the Eagles resort that is saith Austen into heauen whither froÌ„ hence Christ caried with him the body which hee tooke in the nature of man Had we no better ground to refuse that your corporal cating reall presence this were sufficient For where without question the flesh of Christ must bee locally present in your host before it can bee really pressed with teeth the sacred scriptures catholik fathers affirm that the true flesh of Christ is absent from earth verily present in heauen whither we must and may send our harts and faithes to be partakers of him our hands mouthes we can not sende therefore your late deuised doctrine must needes be dissident from the scriptures and vnknowen to the former purer church of christ I see saith Stâ—uen the heauens open and the sonne of man standing at the right hand of God whom the heaueÌ„s saith Peter must contain vntil the time that al things be restored Phi. As though he might not also be in earth Theo. Being ascended into heauen he is no more in earth if that be true which the Angels said to his Disciples This Iesus which is taken vp from you into heauen shall so come as you haue seene him go into heauen ergo when he ascended into heauen he was taken vp from them and not left with them and so the Lord himselfe before had taught them I came foorth from the father and came into the world now contrariwise I leaue the world and go to the father So that his ascending to the father was the leauing of the world and his abiding with the father imployeth his absence from the world The poore you alwaies haue with you but me sayth hee you shall not alwayes haue Nowe am I no more in the world but come to thee holy father ergo now Chriâ—t being with his father is no more in the world but remaineth in heauenâ— and as touching his humane nature is absent from the earth which not onely the scriptures pronounce but also the fathers with one voice professe Tertullian In the very palace of heauen to this day sitteth Iesus at the right hand of his father man though also God fleshe and blood though purer than ours neuerthelesse the very same in substaunce and forme in which he ascended Augustine Let vs shew the Iewes at this day where Christ is would God they would heare and take hold of him Hee was slaine of their fathers he was buried he rose againe and was knowen of his Disciples and before their eyes ascended into heauen and there now sitteth at the right hand of the father Let them heare this and lay hold on him Perhaps he will say whom shall I take holde of him that is absent howe shall I reach my hand vp to heauen to take hold on him sitting there Send thy faith and thou hast hold of him Thy father 's held him in the flesh hold thou him in thine heart Hee is both departeâ— and present he is returnâ—d whence he came and hath not left vs. His body hath hee caried to heauen his maiestie hath hee not withdrawen from the world Mee shall you not alwayes haue He spake this of the presence of his body For touching his maiesty prouidence inspeakeable and inuâ—sible grace it is true that he said I am alwayes with you to the end of the world But as touching the fleshe which the word took touching that by the which he was born of the virgin fastned to the crosse laide in the graue you shall not alwayes haue me with you And why because he is ascended into heauen and is not here there hee sitteth at the right hand of the father Cyrill Wee must here diligeÌ„tly marke that albeit hee haue withdrawen from hence the presence of his bodie yet in the maiestie of his Godhead hee is alwayes with vs euen as himselfe readie to depart from his Disciples promised behold I am with you at all tymes vnto the end of the world For the faithfull must beleeue though hee be absent from vs in body yet in his diuine vertue he is euer present with all that loue him with whome hee euer hath beene and will be present though not in bodie yet in the vertue of his Deitie Hee coulde not bee conuersant with his Apostles in fleshe after hee was once ascended to his Father yet for so much as Christ is truely God and man they should haue vnderstood that in the vnspeakeable power of his Godhead hee meant to bee alwayes with them though in fleshe hee were absent and by that onely meanes notwithstanding hee bee absent in fleshe hee is able to saue his Origen according to his diuine nature hee is not absent from vs but hee is absent according to the dispensation of his bodie which hee tooke As a man shall hee bee absent from vs who is euerie where in his diuine nature For it is not the manhood of Christ that is there wheresoeuer two or three bee gathered togither in his name neither is it his manhood that is with vs at all times vntill the ende of the worlde neither is his manhood present in euerie congregation of the faithfull but the diuine vertue that was in Iesu. Ambrose Steuen amiddest the Iewes saw thee O Lord absent Marie among the Angels sawe thee not being present Steuen sought not for thee on earth who sawe thee standing at the right hand of God Marie which sought thee in earth could not touch thee Steuen touched thee because he sought thee in heauen Therefore neither on the earth nor in the earth nor after the flesh ought wee to seeke thee if we wil find thee Gregory Christ is not here by the presence of his flesh which yet is nowhere absent by the presence of his maiesty The word incarnat both remaineth departeth He departeth from his in bodie and remaineth with his in diuinitie Wee must therefore brethren follow him thither in hart whither we beleeue him to be ascended in body If the fleshe of Christ bee not in earth nor on earth as these learned Fathers teach vs howe can it be locally closed in your massing waters If his humane nature be placed in heauen at the right hand of God there to remaine till the time that all thinges be restored and from thence not from any place els shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead howe vainely doe you suppose him to bee corporally present in your pâ—xes and really lodged in your bellies Phi. His bodie wee say may be present in many places at one time Theoph. This you
say but what ancient Father euer said so before you yea rather why forget you that this is often refuted by them as a leude and hereticall fansie Doeth not Sainct Augustine of purpose debate the matter and in euident termes giue this flat resolution against you Doubt not saieth hee the man Christ Iesus to bee nowe there whence he shall come to iudgement but keepe in minde and holde assured the christian confession that he rose from the dead ascended into heauen sitteth now at the right hand of his Father and from thence from no place else shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead And so shall he come by the very witnesse of Angels as he was seene to goe into heauen that is in the verie same forme substance of his fleshe the whâ—ch hee hath endued with immortalitie not bereaued of the former nature According to this forme of his manhood wee must not thinke him to bee diffunded in euerie place For we must beware that wee doe not so defende the God-head of a man that wee take from him the trueth of his body It is no good consequent that which is in God should bee euerie where as God himselfe is One person is both God and man and one Christ Iesus is both these euerie where as he is God in heauen as he is man Dout not I say that Christ our Lord is euerie where present as God but in some one place of heauen by the meanes of his true bodie And againe Let vs giue the same eare to the holy Gospell that we would to the Lord himselfe if he were present The Lord is aboue in heauen but the trueth is here which also the Lord is The body in which hee rose β can be but in one place â— his trueth is euery where dispersed Doeth not Vigilius a blessed Martyr and Bishoppe of Trident vpholde the verie same point against Eutyches and his accursed companions The fleshe of Christ sayeth hee WHEN IT WAS IN EARTH SVRELY WAS NOT IN HEAVEN AND NOWE BECAVSE IT IS IN HEAVEN CERTAINLIE IT IS NOT IN EARTH yea so farre it is from being in earth that wee looke for Christ after the flesh to come from heauen whom as hee is God the word we beleeue to be with vs in earth Then by your opinion either the worde is comprised in a place as well as the flesh of Christ or the flesh of Christ is euery where togither with the worde seeing one nature doeth not receiue in it selfe any different and contrary state Now to be contained in a place and to be present in euerie place be thinges diuerse and verie dislike and for so much as the word is euery where and the fleshe of Christ not euery where it is cleare that one and the same Christ is of both natures that is euerie where according to the nature of his diuinitie contained in a place according to the nature of his humanity This is the catholike faith and confession which the Apostles deliuered the Martyrs confirmed and the faithful persist in to this day Doth not Fulgentius handle the same question and precisely trace the steps of Sainct Augustine and Vigilius One and the same sonne of God hauing in him the trueth of the diuine and humane nature lost not the proprieties of the true Godhead and tooke also the proprieties of the true manhead one and the selfesame locall by that he tooke of man and infinite by that he had of his Father one and the verie same according to his humane substaunce absent from heauen when hee was in earth and forsaking the earth when hee ascended to heauen but according to his diuine and infinite substaunce neither leauing heauen when hee came downe from heauen neither departing from earth when hee ascended to heauen The which may bee gathered by the most certaine wordes of the Lord himselfe I ascend to my Father and your Father Howe coulde he ascende but as a locall and true man or howe can hee bee present with the faithfull but as an infinite and true God not as if the humane substance of Christ might bee euery where diffunded but because one and the same Sonne of God albeit according to the trueth of his manhead hee were then locally placed on earth yet according to his Godhead which in no wise is concluded in any place hee filled heauen and earth This true manhead of Christ which is locall as also his true Godhead which is alwayes infinite wee see taught by the Doctrine Apostolicall For that Paul might shewe the bodie of Christ as of verie man to bee contayned in a place he sayeth to the Thessalonians You turned to God from idolles to serue the liuing and true God and to looke for his Sonne from heauen declaring that hee surely shoulde corporally come from heauen whom he knewe to bee corporally raysed from the dead His conclusion is this Whereas then the fleshe of Christ is proued without question to bee contained in a place yet his Godhead is at all times euerie where by the witnesse of Paul c. These bee no wrested or maymed allegations but graue and aduised authorities of learned and auncient Fathers plainely concluding with vs against you that the fleshe of Christ is not absent onely from earth and nowe sitteth aboue at the right hande of GOD but also locally contayned in some one place of heauen by reason of the trueth of his bodie and therefore not dispersed in many places or present in euerie place as you would nowe make the world beleeue it is in your Masses Philand This was spoken of the shape but not of the substance of Christs bodie For Sainct Augustine sayeth Secundum hanc formam non est putandus vbique diffusus according to this externall shape and forme we must not thinke him euerie where diffused and yet the trueth and substaunce of his bodie may bee in many places at one time Theop. You forget that the rest say nature and substaunce as Vigilius Circumscribitur loco per naturam carnis suae Christ is circumscribed with place by the nature of his flesh and Fulgentius Secundum humanam substantiam derelinquens terram cum ascendisset in coelum according to his humane substaunce leauing the earth when hee ascended into heauen and againe Non quia humana Christi substantia fuisset vbique diffusa not as if the humane substaunce of Christ should bee euerie where diffunded By the which it is cleare that neither the forme nor substaunce of Christes bodie can be present in many places at one time And what doeth Sainct Augustine meane by the word forme but the perfection and trueth of mans nature as Ambrose Leo Chrysostome others doe What is sayeth Ambrose in the forme of God in the nature of God I demaund sayeth Leo what is ment by this taking the
failing or changing Phi. That we beleeue Theo. How theÌ„ can the manhood of Christ be in many places at one time Or how can it in any place or time be without shape quantitie circumscription and such like proprieties of mans nature Phi. In heauen it hath them Theo. If they can not be changed or altered the manhoode of Christ must haue them not in heauen only but in earth also in euery place where the substance of his bodie is Philand Saue in the Sacrament Theophi If that be the same bodie which was on the Crosse it must haue the same natural proprieties of a body which that had Phi. It hath as many as it may Theo. It must haue as many as it should Phi. Which be they Theo. Proportion of shape distinction of parts extension of quantitie circumscription of place and the very same substance of fleshe which hee tooke of his mother Marie Phi. You name these things which you see bee not in the Sacrament Theophi I name those which the manhood of Christ must haue wheresoeuer it be Phi. Must haue What necessitie is in that Theo. As much as the denying of your faith contradicting of his trueth For these proprieties the body had that hung on the Crosse and without these hee can be no true man Philan. In heauen we tell you he hath them Theophil And in the Sacrament wee tell you â—ee hath them not Ergo the manhoode of Christ is not in the Sacrament Phi. Cannot Christ be where he list without those consequents Theo. His bodie can not Phi. Doe not you nowe deny him to be omnipotent Theophi Doe not you now alleadge his power to frustrate both his will and your faith Philand You hold christ cannot if he would Theo. We say christ would not though he could And since his will is euident by his worde as our common faith auoucheth you doe wickedly to crosse his will with his power and make his might attendant on your follies Dei velle posse est non posse nolle The power of God which we must stand on is his wil and that which he will not that he cannot You must not therefore imagine what you list and then ground vpon the power and strength of GOD it is error and impietie whatsoeuer is repugnant to his trueth and to father your falsehoodes on his almightie power is irreuerent and insolent blasphemie Phi. You doe not so much as confesse that he can doe it and that causeth vs to suspect you doubt of Gods omnipotencie Theo. Because we suffer you not to vnload your absurdities and impieties on Gods power at your pleasures Philand First graunt hee can doe it and of that wee will commune afterward Theo. What shall I graunt Phi. That Christ according to his corporall presence may be in many places at one time if it please him Theo. What then shal become of S. Austen that said Christ could not concerning his corporall presence be at one time in the sunne in the moone and on the crosse And of S. Cyril affirming that Christ could not be conuersant with his Apostles after he once ascended If hee could not bee in three places at one time how could hee bee in moe If not in earth when he was in heauen how both in heauen and earth as you your selues conceiued and woulde haue vs confesse And yet the thing which we withstand is far more impossible than this For the manhoode of Christ by the tenour of the christian faith hath and must haue after his ascension humane shape partes length breadth both extended circumscribed and otherwise to thinke is the wicked and cursed opinion of Eutyches condemned long since by the church of God for a meere impietie You to auoide the burdeÌ„ of that sentence confes these properties are must be permaneÌ„t in the body which our sauiour tooke of the virgin wherein he now sitteth at the right hand of God his father marie the selfesame bodie you defend to bee in the sacrament without shape partes length or breadth either extended or circumscribed which is wee say simplie impossible For shaped not shaped extended not extended circumscribed not circumscribed be plaine contradictions those of one thing at one time are not possible Phi. Is any thing impossible to God Theo. Doth not the Apostle say Negare seipsum non potest God cannot deny himselfe Impossibile est Deum mentiri it is impossible that God should lie S. Austen well noteth Dicitur omnipotens faciendo quod vult non patiendo quod non vult vnde propterea quaedam non potest quia est omnipotens God is said to be omnipotent in doing that he will not in suffering that hee will not And therefore can he not doe some things because he is omnipotent And S. Ambrose likewise Quid ergo ei impossibile Non quod virtuti arduum sed quod naturae eius contrarium What then is impossible to God not that which passeth his power but that which is contrarie to his nature Impossibile istud non infirmitatis sed virtutis maiestatis quia veritas non recipit mendacium nec Dei virtus leuitatis errorem This impossibilitie proceedeth not of infirmitie but of might and maiestie because the trueth of God admitteth not a lie nor the power of God any note of inconstancie So that all changes against his nature or falshoods against his trueth bee vtterly impossible to GOD and that because hee is almighty Phi. That we know Theo. Then this also you must needs know that contradictions be impossible for of theÌ„ if one part be true the other is euer false and that God should be false it is not possible You must therfore either with Eutyches affirme the manhood of christ to be changed from his former shape partes quantitie and circumscription and consequently from his former substance or els against religion and learning reason and sense defend contradictions that is trueth and falshoode to bee possible both at one time which is nothing but to make God a liar in his workes as you be in your wordes for maintaining that error Phi. At diuers times and in 〈…〉 contradictions may bee true Theo. There can be but one part 〈…〉 other at the same instant is ineuitablie false and as for your 〈…〉 the proprieties of christes bodie which wee speake of bee absâ—lute and inherent necessities no relations nor comparisons you may keepe them for some better â—art in this assertion they will doe you no seruice Phi. What if we say the bodie of christ in the Sacrament hath the same proportion of shape extension of partes and circumscription of place which it hath in heauen how can you refell vs Theo. Neuer take the paiâ—es to incur new contradictions a shorter answer will serue you for all and that is say you beleeue you cannot tell what For otherwise men
or haue they teeth l Cap. 29. m Cap. 38. n Cap 19. o Cap. 46. Not the widenes of thy mouth to receiue Christ but the bosome of thy soul that is thy saith p Fulbertus in epist. ad Adeodatum That is not by local inclusion but by mysticall operation * This is the mouth that receiueth Christ not the bodily mouth as the Iesuits hold The spirituall eating the fathers taught the corporall they did not teach * Your adding that which you should not is no warrant for vs to beleeue it Iohn 6. * Christ is not meate for both the parts of man and that which is eaten is meate q Chrys. homil 43. in Iohan. r Ambros. de iis qui initiantur mysteriis ca. 9. s Aug. de verbis Dom. in Lucam serm 33. t Cypr. de Caena Domini For what part christ is meat that part he nourisheth which the Iesuits dare not confesse to be true of the bodie u Chrys. hom 83. in Mat. 45. in Ioan. y Ibidem x Chrysost. in Matt. hom 83. Cypr. de cae 11 Domini z Iâ—â— dist 2. dâ— consec ¶ In quibus z Athana in illud quicunque dixerit verbuÌ„ Chrysosâ— in 〈◊〉 83. No one 〈…〉 the bodâ—e the soâ—l Iohn 6. He that abideth not in Christ doth not eate christ by the manifest resolution of Christ himselfe Iohn 6. Such as liue not by Christ doe not eate Christ. A sacramentall eating hath in it both the corporall eating of the signes with teeth the spirituall eating of Christ by faith g Aug. de ciuiâ— Dei li. 21. c. 25. To eate christ in a sacrameÌ„t is not so much as to eate him indeede e Ibidem f Ibidem h Augu◠〈◊〉 Ioan tract 26. The sacranâ—eÌ„tali eating of Christ is the eating of the sacred signe wherby he is figured i Contra. adâ—ers leg Prâ—pheâ— lib. 2. cap. 9. de ciuit Dei li. 10. cap. 5. k De cons. dist 2. ¶ hoc est The sacrameÌ„t is not the bodie of Christ but after a soâ—t that is by a mysteâ—e of signification l August in Iohan â—ract 26. m Hier. in Ose. cap. 8. n Ambros. de iis qui initiantur mysteriis cap. 8. o Cypr. de caena Domini p Orig. in Mat. cap. 15. The wicked eate the Sacrament but they eate not Christ. Christ entereth and abideth where he is receiued q Concil Nicen. 1. How Christ is present on the table r Concil Nicen. Ibidem s Chrysost. ad Poâ—iâ— Antioch hom 61. With these two points of cunning the Iesuites perueâ—t all the fathers they bring for this matter t Cypr. de vnctiâ— â—hrysmaâ—is u Ambros. de iis qui initiantur mysteriis cap. 3. We confeâ—se a more mightie fruitfull and heauenly presence of christ in the Sacraments than the Iesuits do Infinite are the contentions of their Schooles about these such other points of their reall and carnall imagination The cheefest Papists are togither by the eares for their corporall eating of Châ—istes flesh with teeth iawes The gloze maketh it an heresie to say that Christes fleâ—h is betwixt the teeth a De cons. dist 2. § tribus gradibus In Glossa b Durand in rationali diuinor officior lib. 4. Rubr. de 6. parâ— Canonis c Ibidem Durandus will haue it in the mouth but no farder c Ibidem Durandus will haue it in the mouth but no farder d Bonâ—â—em in 4 senâ—em dist 13. â—rtic 2. quaeâ—â—a Bonauenture will haue Christ in the bellie but thâ—nâ—e he shal not stirâ—e e Ibiâ—em Tâ—eâ—sâ—lues confâ—sâ—e their owne varietie of â—paâ—â—nâ— touching the coâ—porall eating of Christ and graunt it hard to iudge what to hold f Ibidâ—m g Alex. de Haâ—â—s part 3. quaesâ— 45. h Thom part 3. quaest 80. arâ—ic 3. The Thomists wil haue Christ in the bellies of mice and hogges if they eate the Sacrament i Senten lib. 4. dist 13. k Anton. part 3. tit 13. cap 6. § 3. de â—â—fectibus Misâ—ae Here is the perfection of their real presence and corporall â—aâ—ing of Christes flesh with their teeth l Ibidem * Behold christian reader the iust reward of error and learne to reuerence the trueth of God * For this the Iesuits striue This grosnes is so wicked that they are ashamed of iâ— but they cannot auoide it Senten lib. 4. dist 13. To Canonize and promote the men was the next way to spred their errors p Chrysost. in Mat. hom 83. q Cyril catechis mysâ—ago 4. The creatures maie manie waies miscary the flesh of Christ because it is not locallie incloâ—ed can not The flesh of Christ not subiect to any vncleanes or corruption r Ambrâ—s de sacramentiâ— lib. 1. cap. 5. s Idem de iis qui initiantur mysteriis cap. 3. t August de â—apâ—â— contra Donatiâ—â— lib. 3. cap. 10. u Orig. in 15. Mat. x Rabanus de iâ—st Clâ—ricor lib. 1. cap. 31. The schoolemen were driuen to this bâ—uâ—ishnes by the very sequele of their reall presence a De cons. dist 2. § qui bene Glossa ibidem The Iesuits at this day cannot auoid that filthie doctrine but by grosse and apparent mockeries b Thomas Walden tomo 2. qui de sacramentis est c. 46. They might as well defeÌ„d they bee nâ— mice or biâ—dâ— that â—ouch the Sacrament but Angels in those snapes b Thomas Walden tomo 2. qui de sacramentis est c. 46. They might as well defeÌ„d they bee nâ— mice or biâ—dâ— that â—ouch the Sacrament but Angels in those snapes c De cons. dist 2. § qui bene Glossa Ibidem This is a sure waie to keepe mâ—ce from eating Christ but theÌ„selues are in 〈◊〉 great dâ—unger to â—â—â—e â—im as the mice They haue but the two foâ—â—â—â—r 〈…〉 Where Christ sitteth in the glorie of God the father farre from the iniuries and abuses of men or beastâ— No teeth nor iawes can reach to Christ but onely faith that enioyetâ— him in the heauens The Christians were neuer taught to turne their harts to the host d Coloss. 3. e August de bono viduitatis cap. 16. * Vp to heauen to the Priests hands Whither wee must lift vp our harts to seeke fâ—r Christ. f Ambros. in 1â— Luc. lib. 8. § de duobus in vno lecto c. g Idem lib. 10. in 24. cap. Luc. ¶ de hora Dominicae resurrect h Chrys. in 10. cap. 1. Cor. hom 24. * Which dogs mice cannot doe j Hiâ—r Hâ—dibiâ—e quaest 2. k Paschas de corpâ—re sanguin Dom. cap. 52. l August qu est Euang. lib. 1. cap. 42. If Christ be absent in bodie from the earth how can his flesh be really present in the host m Act. 7. n Act. 3. The flesh of Christ is not on earth o Act. 1. When he ascended he was taken vp from vs. p Iohn 16. q Iohn 12. r Iohn 17. Christ going to his father is no more on earth s Tertul. de resurrect carnis t August in Euang Iohan. tract 50. What means we haue to take hold of Christ now absent in heauen u
Ibidem How Christ is prâ—sent with vs and howe he is absent from vs. * There not here x Cyril in Ioan. lib. 6. cap. 14. Christ absent in flesh a Lib. 9. cap. 21. b Lib. 9. cap. 22. c Lib. 11. cap. 3. d Lib. 11. ca. 21. e Lib. 11. ca. 22. f Orig. tract in Matth. 33. His bodie absent from vs. His manhood is neither in all places nor at all times with vs. g Ambr. li. 10. super â—ucae cap. 24. de hora Dominicae resurrectionis christ is not to besought neither on earth nor in earth h Gregor in Euang homil 2â— i Ibidem homil 30. k Ibidem hom 29. The fathers themselues teach both partes of this consequentâ— Christ is in heauen ergo not in earth l August epist. 57. ad Dardanum That the substaunce of Christs bodie maie be in manie places at one time is a condemned heresie m August epist. ad Daâ—danum 57. * Nec aliunde quam inde * In eadem carnis forma atque substantia * If Christes manhood be in euerie place he looseth the truth of his bodie n In eadem epi. ad finem * In aliquâ— loco coeli o August in Iohan tract 30. He speaketh of the trueth of the gospel not of the truth of the bodie of Christ. * β Vno loco esse poâ—est p Vigilius contra Eutych lib. â— cap. 4. * That the flesh of Christ should be euery where was a sequâ—lâ— of Eutyches heresie * Christ maÌ„hood conâ—ained in a place * From this the Iesuits be vtterly fallen q Fulgent ad Thrasimundum Regem lib. 2. cap. 5. * Christs humane substance is not both in heauen earth at one time * If Christ be not locall he is no true man The body of Christ contained in one 〈◊〉 place not diffunded in manie * This without question is the Christian faith and not the Iesuits vbiquitie or multilocitie This is a bare shift of the Iesuits yet this is all the refuge they haue r Aug. epist. 57. s Vigil contra Eutych li. 4. cap. 4. t Fulgent lib. 2. cap. 5. ad Thrasimundum regeÌ„ u Ibidem Fourme is all one with truth and perfection a Ambros. lib. 7. epist. 47. b Leo epist 97. c Chryso in cap. 2. epist. ad Phil. sermâ— 6. d Aug. epist. 57. e Ibidem Per id quod homo is substaÌ„ce as well as shape Christ can haue no humane substance without humane shape f Aug. epist. 57. g Phili. cap. 3. h Fulgent ad Thrasimundâ—â— regâ—m lib. 2. cap. 5. i Theod. dial 2. It is no humane bodie that hath not shape as well as substance k Ambro. in 10. cap. ad Heb. Chrys. hom 17. in eadem epist. l Chrysost. de Sacerdotio li. 3. Chrysostome and Ambrose could not gainesay the rest and be Catholikes The Iesuites would drawe Chrysostome and Ambrose to be of Eutyches opinion These conditions of a true bodie the manhead of Christ maie haue wheresoeuer it be There is but one Christ that one Christ hath but one body which is not euery where m Aug. de essentia diuinitatis n Vigil contra Eutych lib. 4. cap. 4. The words of Ambrose and Chrysostome as the Iesuites conster them are against the verie grounds of our common faith How Chrysostome Ambrose must be vnderstood o Chrys. de Sacerdot lib. 3. Chrysostoms figuratiue vehement â—peaches much abused by the Iesuits p Ambros. lib. 10. in 24. Luc. q August epist. Iohan tract 1. Chrysostome himselfe excludeth the corporall vnderstanding of his words r Chryso de Sacerdot lib. 3. s Ibidem t Chrys. Ibidem The power of God must neuer be alleadged against his wil nor our faith which he hath commaunded vs to beleeue u Tertul. aduers Praxeam Gods omnipotencie a common refuge with heretikes When wee produce gods power for our fansies against his trueth wee make him a lyar and in subiection to our willes The Iesuits pretend god-power against the christian faith * Or if you do not see your selues condeÌ„ned in the great councel of ChalcedoÌ„ Act. 5. definitio 2. as heâ—eâ—iâ—s for not beleeuing it * A very witty excâ—ption Then you beleeue the Christian faith to be true euerie where sauing in the Sacrament and what is that but wilfullie and openlie to denie the faith where you list Whatsoeuer he can doe you bee heretikes in the meane time for contradicting the christian faith * Tertul. aduer Praeâ—eam The Iesuites incurre not onelie Impieties but impossibilities a August conâ—ra â—austum li. 20. cap. 11. b Cyril in Ioan. lib. 15. cap. 3. These fathers were not afraide to saie Christ coulde not be in manie places at one time The Iesuits whiles they would shunne Eutyches error runne headlong into contradictions yet stick in the same mire that Eutyches did c 2. Tim. 2. d Hebr. 6. e Aug. de ciuit Dei lib. 5. c. 10. f Ambr. lib. 6. epist. 37. g Ibidem What thingâ— are impossible to God and why Of contradictions one part is euer false and all falshood impossible to God A lie in worke is as bad as a lie in word as contrarie to the nature of God This is right Iesuitical skill to saie the bodie of Christ is and is not contained in a place * These bee worse than the Poets chimers The best gâ—ounds you haue for these thinges are dreames and miracles of your owne making * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * You be good at vndertaking but naught at perfourming It is enough for the Iesuâ—â—s to call themselues Catholiâ—es though they cannot shâ—w one writer for a thousand yeares that taught theâ—r transubstantiation * Which will say neuer a word for your purpose This is cited out of S. Austen by frier Walden tomo 2. de Sacramentis cap. 83 a diuine worke in D. Allens iudgement lib. 1. de Euch. sacâ— pa. 34â— This forgery with others was iudicially allowed by Pope Martin the fifth and his Cardinals in their Consistorie * This young Austen lacked not onely learning and trueth but Latine and witte * Had you not beene ashamed of your occupation you would haue printed iâ— The woordes did so plainly betray thâ—mselues that they haue since suppressed the booke for verâ—e shame Bede likewise forged by Walden * Citatura The. Walden tomo 2. vt supra cap. 82. * He neuer wrate anie such booke The credite of both these places lieth onely on frier Walden who