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A92287 The reasons of the Dissenting Brethren against the third proposition, concerning presbyterial government· Humbly presented. Westminster Assembly; Goodwin, Thomas, 1600-1680.; Westminster Assembly (1643-1652). Answer of the Assembly of Divines unto the reasons of the seven Dissenting Brethren, against the proposition of divers congregations being united under one Presbyteriall government. 1645 (1645) Wing R573; Thomason E27_14; ESTC R209981 37,798 45

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materiall difference betweene them and ours these Apostles were in their severall Parishes not onely subordinate in their government to the common Presbytery of all the Apostles but limited to lesser Acts of government for so the lesser Elderships in the Churches under the Presbyteriall government are confined onely to examine and admonish and prepare for the greater Presbytery and therein not enabled to ordaine Elders over the Congregation or excommunicate a member Peter and John joyned together were by this principle not enabled to it And yet if we doe not suppose such a limited government in those severall Congregations here can bee no patterne for the Presbyterian government as it is practised Or if otherwise wee should suppose them fixed Officers for teaching onely to one of those Congregations and to have no government at all over it but to bring all to the common Presbytery of Apostles that is a greater incongruitie then the former for this casts them below the condition of our Parish Elders for unto them the greater Presbytery doth allow some measure and part of the Government but such a supposition would allow Apostles none in their severall Congregations The Scripture holds forth that many Congregations may be under one Presbyteriall Government Sect. 1. BY particular Congregations either first an Assembly of Christians meeting for worship onely as to heare pray c. or secondly an Assembly so furnished with Officers as fit for Discipline having a Presbytery is meant in the latter sense which is that the proofs are brought to confirme and that that is practised where this government is set up the proposition is equivalent to such an assertion as this Many Presbyteries may bee under one Presbyteriall government as thus many Parochiall Presbyteries may bee under one Classicall many Classicall under one Provinciall c. which is the same as to affirme that one Presbytery may bee over another as the Bishops affirme That one Presbyter may bee over another this is evident if you assert a Presbyteriall government may bee over a Congregation that is composed of a Presbytery and people for it cannot bee said to bee over a Congregation if it bee over the people onely that is not over their Presbytery also for then the Presbytery will be Independent and the people under two Presbyteries coordinate and not subordinate which stands not with common reason Sect. 2. This then being the Assertion it is thus argued against A Presbytery over a Presbytery or power over power necessarily implyeth two sorts of Presbyteries or Ecclesiasticall Jurisdictions specifically distinct or at least more then numerically A greater or lesser vary not the kind in a Physicall or Theologicall consideration but in a Politicall it doth Hee that hath a greater power then I have that is a power over my power a power to order direct or correct the power I have this mans power and mine differ as two sorts or kinds of power And although this superior Presbytery bee made up of Presbyters sent as Commissioners from the congregationall or parochiall Presbyteries yet this hinders not at all but that they may bee thus distinct For some Cities and townes corporate their Officers are sent up sit as Members of Parliament yet this Honorable House hath a power distinct and superior to that which is in London or Yorke though the superior Presbytery bee made up of Presbyters from severall Congregations yet it is not made up of Presbyteries it hath the persons materially considered but not that power formally considered for as while the Parliament sits and certaine Burgesses from Burrough townes sit as Members in it these Townes notwithstanding still retaine all the power those Corporations were ever invested with so particular Congregations whilst some of their Elders sit in the Classicall Presbytery have Elderships or a Presbytery still Now that it is very probable the Scripture holds not forth two sorts of Presbyteries thus specifically distinct may bee thus argued Sect. 3. First where the Scripture holds forth distinct sorts in any kinde there will bee found either distinct and proper names and titles or at least some adjunct or difference added to that which is common or generall In the Apostles times there were Presbyters over Presbyters Apostles were superior to Prophets and Prophets a distinct order from Teachers Therefore in 1 Corinth 12. God hath set some in the Church First Apostles secondarily Prophets thirdly Teachers after that Miracles then gifts of Healings c. They have not onely particular names and titles but speciall notes of distinction added {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} as in Genesis 1. where no distinction in names is given The Sunne Moon and Starres of Heaven are all called Lights yet there are termes of difference added they are called first great Lights and then the greater to rule the day and the lesser to rule the night Throughout the New Testament wee finde this word {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} but in three places whereof there is but one that holdeth out the Government in hand and in that place you have the naked word onely without the addition of any such expression greater lesser superiour inferior or any kinde of adjunct that can possibly put a thought in us of more Presbyteries then one Notwithstanding so usefull are peculiar distinct names where there are distinct sorts or kindes of administration as it is not omitted by any Church in their Ordinances for Government in Scotland the lowest is termed a Consistory the next a Classis or Presbytery the third a Provinciall Synod the fourth a Generall Assembly The French in these termes Consistories and Colloquel and Synods so in the Episcopall Republique there was the like varietie Sect. 4. Secondly As the Scriptures hold forth nothing in any title or name to distinguish no more can wee thence discover any sorts of Government different in nature for tryall of this let it bee supposed there is a Parochiall or Consistorian Presbytery for one sort there is another sort wee call Classicall what Scripture gives light by any kinde of reasoning to warrant the setting up one of those above or over the other Doe you read anywhere God hath set in his Church first Presbyteries secondarily Classes then Consistories Or is there any thing in the word directing a different composition or constitution in these Sect. 5. First For the materiale the Persons that these Presbyteries are made up of are the same The Consistory hath gifted men set apart to the Office of the Ministery Those that are in a Classicall Presbytery are no otherwise qualifyed nor indeed doth the Scripture require any thing but a Presbyteration to qualifie men for any sort if there were sorts of Presbytery That there is a greater number of Presbyters in the one then in the other this alters not the state in respect of the matter for if the number bee competent that is so many as two or three may agree Matth. 18. it sufficeth The