Selected quad for the lemma: heaven_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
heaven_n	church_n	earth_n	triumphant_a	4,427	5	11.4398	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91190	A full reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on Master Prynnes twelve questions about church-government: vvherein the frivolousnesse, falsenesse, and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer (ashamed of his name) and his weak grounds for independency, and separation, are modestly discovered, refelled. / By William Prynne of Lincolnes Inne, Esquire.	Prynne, William, 1600-1669.	1644 (1644)	Wing P3966; Thomason E257_7; ESTC R210038	32,460	24

them so I dare not stile them Conventicles in an ill sense since not † such by Law being only lawfull Assemblies of private Christians to seek unto God by prayer fasting upon extraordinary occasions which all good Christians cannot but approve But all these meetings were farre from being then stiled reputed Independent Churches or having any affinity with them so as they make nothing for his cause To the eighth Quere he gives a negative Answer First in generall next in particular to some instances First he grants that there was a Nationall Church yea Nationall assemblies Parliaments determining church-affaires of the Jewes but these saith he cannot be a pattern for its now because the covenant of the Gospell is not made with any one particular Nation as with the Jewes but to all Nations that embrace the Gospel and beleeve in Christ you have no promise nor prophesie of any Nation to be holy to God but the Jewes Nation when they shall bee called againe To which I reply first That Independents have not the least precept or example for any solemne Covenant made betwixt God and men to walke in the wayes of God c. but onely * in the old Testament and Church of the Israelites and that no private congregationall but publike Nationall covenant prescribed by the supreme temporall Magistrate and Assembly not by the Priests or private Synagogues yea the principall precepts presidents for publike or private fasts sanctifying the Sabbath c. you likewise derive from the old Testament and that Church why then should not their Nationall Church be a pattern for us and you to imitate as well as their Nationall covenant fasting sabbath-keeping the Church of God being all one as it is a Church both under the old Teastament and new and the pattern of it under the Law a better pesident for the Church under the Gospel of which it was a type and fore-tunner then the pattern of the Tabernacle shewed in the Mount so frequent in your Lips and Books a president for your Independent Modell to which it hath no analogy 2. This reason is most absurd and false the Covenant of the Gospel extending not onely to particular persons but to † all Nations and people whatsoever who are both prophesied and promised to become Christs own inheritance possession people spouse church and to be an HOLY NATION A PECVLIAR PEOPLE c. to the Lord in infinite Texts both of the old and new Testament which I wonder the Respondent should either not see or forget being ten thousand fold more cleare and visible then his Independent platforme which few or none can yet espy in Scripture History or Politiques 2. He addes that I cannot shew any Nation every member whereof is qualified sufficiently to make up a church which is Christs body unlesse I will take in Drunkards Whore-masters c. to be members of a church whereas the Word saith they must be visible Saints and this cannot be avoided in a Nationall church I answer that I dare not be wiser then my Master Christ who Informes me that there will and must be alwayes in the visible church on earth be it Nationall parochiall presbyteriall or congregationall * goats among the sheep chaffe among the wheat which must grow together till the harvest at the end of the world to wit the day of judgment good fish mixed with the bad in the churches Not. 2. I finde a a Judas a Devill among the Apostles many b grosse sinners idolaters and corruptions in the Jewish church many abuses Epicures Drunkards Whore-masters Libertines uncleane persons and false Teachers in the churches of Galatia Ephesus Colosse Pergamus Smynna Thyatira and Laodicea yet the Scripture expresly stiles them c the body and churches of Christ and rep●tes such members though corrupt ones of those Churches who doe not actually cease to be members when excommunicated or suspended for a season after they are baptized and professe the Christian faith nor did any separate from these churches though they had some corruptions and evill members For you therefore to separate from and unchurch such Nationall or Parochiall churches which have such members in them is to unchurch all churches both in the old and new Testament and the world it self yea your own churches too 3. The Scripture is expresse d that many are called but few chosen and saved that all must be compelled to come into the church though they want the wedding-garment There never was nor shall be here on earth any one visible church compacted wholly of reall elected Saints without any mixture of Reprobates such a church we shall meet with onely in heaven I am sure you can gather none such on earth 4. Are there no corrupt or drunken members in your independent churches but onely reall visible Saints are there no usurers oppressors corrupt dealers covetous proud malicious uncharitable censorious persons no apparent hypocrites or dissemblers yea are there not many sinnes and corruptions in the best the choicest of all your members who cannot depart away or quite separate themselves from their owne bosome corruptions as there is and will be in the best of men during their mortality If your Independent congregations consist of such members as these of men subject to like passions sinnes infirmities as others in Presbyteriall churches what then is become of this your reason and principall ground of Independency or rather Separation or Brownism its ancient proper title you may lay it up in Lavander for another world but can make no use of it in this where you cannot so much as dream of a church of reall Saints without any mixture of corruption 3. For his answers to that of Acts 15. all ages churches till this present have held it both an expresse warrant and president for the lawfulnesse , usefulness of Nationall and Provinciall Synods to determine differences in Religion which particular churches persons cannot decide and making necessary Canons for church-affaires neither can all his shifts elude it To his first and second reasons or rather evasions I answer it is clear by Act. 15. 2. that the church of Antiech it selfe could not decide the question nor Paul nor Barnabas satisfactorily determine it so farre as to quiet all parties and therefore they sent Delegates to the Apostles and Elders at Hierusalom there to decide it None is so ignorant but knowes that there are many controversies now on foot concerning doctrine discipline and church-government which no particular congregations nay hardly an whole Synod and Parliament together are sufficient to settle and determine therefore there is a kinde of necessity of Nationall Synods as well as of Parliaments whence all ages churches have used them To his third reason I reply that it is evident by expresse words vers. 2. 5. 6. 7. 10. 19. 20. 24. that the principall end why the Apostles went up to Hierusalem and why this Synod assembled was not to prove

Churches both in the Ordinances and in asking counsell and advice mutually To the first I answer 1. That if you are accountable for your actions to every particular neighbour Church then why not much more to a Synod or Parliament whose ecclesiasticall jurisdiction over you or your Churches is denied by you Secondly if you are thus accountable to every neighbour Church doe you intend it of Parochiall Episcopall or Presbyteriall Churches as well as Independent or of Independent onely If of Independent onely as I suppose you doe then you appeale onely to Churches of your owne partie frame judgment and make one of them subordinate accountable to another but not to any other Church which is an apparent schisme separation from all other Churches and contradicts your second objection If of all other sorts of Churches as well as Independent you must either grant them true Churches of Christ and then you have no ground to sever from them or if false or no true Churches of Christ as you in truth repute them then by your own principles they are no competent Iudges of Ecclesiasticall affaires nor you accountable to them Thirdly How I pray doe you hold your selves accountable to every neighbour Church by way of subordination or correction that I am certain you will deny or only by way of voluntary information and satisfaction when required which I conceive you mean If so only then this is properly no account at all or but arbitrary at most which you may deny if you please and if you erre or prove faulty this neighbour Church can but admonish not enforce you to correct your errours or injustice and so this will prove but a meere mockery in stead of an account To the second I answer That if you stand not Independent from other Churches but hold communion with them in Ordinances and in mutuall counsell and advice Then 1. why doe you separate from them as no true Churches and oppose their way of Government with so much bitternesse Secondly why doe you refuse to administer Baptisme and the Lords Supper to those who are their members in your Churches unlesse they be professed members of some Independent Congregation Thirdly why do you not follow their advice counsell or the Parliaments Synodes and submit thereto who now earnestly disswade you from your way of separation division in these distracted times the end of demanding good counsell and advice being but to follow not reject it where there is humility ingenuity or sincerity in those who aske it You must therefore either disclaime these objected concessions or become more tractable for the future 4. You tell us in the next succeeding lines That neither I nor Synods nor this Synod are infallible but as subject to errours as others and that never † more dangerous errours have been confirmed then by Synods and therfore men are not bound in conscience to their decrees upon penaltie of sinne arrogancy c. But pray Sir may not you and your Independent Ministers Churches erre as well as others Is infallibility annexed onely to your private Chaires conventicles If not then why may not your new-minted Way be a meere erronious By-path and no way of Christ as well as other waies and you erre herein as well as Synods in other things Why will you have the major vote in your congregationall decisions to over-rule and bind the rest to obedience as your practice and opinions intimate since the major part may possibly be mistaken as well as the lesse dissenting Shall nothing binde in any Churches but what is unanimously voted nemine contradicente or shall one or two dissenting voices over-rule the rest or not be bound by the most or where all consent may not all yet be in an errour and not discerne it through selfe-love to their owne wayes and opinions till others of contrary judgements discover and convince them of their errour Away then with this fond argument and evasion Synods and Parliaments may erre in some things Ergo they must binde us in no thing Is this good Logicke or Divinity Good Ministers may and doe erre sometimes in some points of Divinitie Ergo wee will beleeve them in none no not in those things in which they doe not erre Will you throw away all the Apple because● one part of it only is rotten or reject Communion with the best of men because they have some infirmities Deal then with the Ecclesiasticall decrees of Synods and Parliaments as in wisdome in conscience you are bound to doe Where they are just equall not opposite to the word embrace submit unto them when erronious or contrariant to the expresse word not to your own fancies inferences or opinions you may differ from them in judgment but you must patiently suffer under them in point of practise obedience if meerly practicall till a further season and not disturb the Churches peace by opposition or schism which is as good as seasonable Christian advice as that you conclude with unto me which I heartily wish your selfe had first followed who have more defamed the ways of Christ and u●ed more personall unchristian betternesse then I am guilty of You wish indeed O that a spirit of love were maintained among those that are brethren though they differ in judgment must they needs differ in affection I say the same But O then why seperate you from us yea passe uncharitable censures on us as if we were not your Brethren One Kingdom one City House doth now one heaven shall heareafter contain us both why not then one church government one Church Militant as well as one Triumphant If you deem not your * selves more holy then your brethren or be not swelled up with spirituall pride as your stiling your selves † Men of rich anoynting from God the most religiously affected and best conscienced people of the land the most precious men c. with your separation from us and harsh censures of us make most men suspect then why refuse you to close with us now as you have done heretofore Could our Ministers Churches when more corrupt convert regenerate edifie save you and yet not now so much as hold you when more refined and reformed If yea then let us both shake hands without any more encounters if nay then fairely chalke out your yet concealed independent way and platforme in all its severall lineaments and beautifull native colours produce your severall punctuall Scriptures Arguments to maintain it there being none of them extant in these your Observations for ought I can find that so I may see the frame and grounds of this new Fabricke in as large or narrow a Modell as you please and then doubt not but an Answer shall be given to what ever you modestly set forth if worthy answer in case it be not satisfactorie or else a friendly embrace thereof if agreeable to the Spirit and Word of truth by him who hath learned Pauls peremptorie resolution 2 Cor. 13. 8. We

the h Policy practise of most Godly Magistrates Princes Ministers Churches in all Ages Nations which never indulged such liberty to opinions new wayes practises especially to new Church-governments Schismes and Conventicles which he here pleads for set up only by private spirits in opposition to the publick established Church-regelment Indeed in some matters mearly of opinion which are not dangerous or schismaticall some latitude may and must be left to men but matters of Government are such tender things as differences varieties therin cannot be tollerated in one and the selfe same Church and State without infinite inconveniencies and disturbances especially where every Church shall be Independent subject to no other Canons rules but its own peculiar arbitrary Dictates 2 It may be questioned whether the Independent way he there so earnestly pleads for be the way of Christ or not since he neither discovers to us what it is nor produceth any one text to prove it Christs own way nor one example to warrant it in any age but gives us good grounds to suspect it none of his without much scrutiny 1 For first he comeneth i that this way is every where spoken against even by some that would be thought prime men and pillars in the temple of God and insinuates that the Parliament Assembly and generality of the k Ministers and people of the Realm are bent against it Therefore being a new way never yet heard off in the world in any age or Church of Christ and thus generally opposed by our whole Church and State even in these times of Reformation we may l justly suspect it is no way of Christ till we see its approbation written in a beam of the Sun with the finger of God himself and till he hath justified and owned it as his from heaven 2 He tacitly acknowledgeth it a m Government set up by a few private men not only without but against the authority commands of the Parliament and supream temporall Magistrates yea which not only denyes but oppugnes the temporall Magistrates Parliaments Synods directions or coercive power in Ecclesiasticall affairs directly contrary to the Scriptures as I have largely proved by many Texts in my o Independency examined Only I shall adde that not only the Kings and temporall Magistrates of the Israelites but even heathen p Kings and Princes as Cyrus Artaxerxes Darius Nebuchadnezzars the King Nobles of Nineve c. enacted good and wholsom Laws for the worship honor and service of the true God and to further his people in the building of his temple who thereupon were enjoyned to pray for their prosperity as the marginall Scriptures evidence Yea r Paul himselfe even in matters of Religion pleaded his cause before Festus Felix King Agrippa and at last appealed unto Caesar an heathen Emperor herein yea he enjoyns all Christians Å¿ to pray even for heathen Kings Magistrates and to submit to all their lawfull commands for conscience sake to whose judicature and tribunals t Christ himself and his Apostles willingly submitted themselves upon all occasions when brought before them without demurring to their jurisdictions Therefore Christian Princes Magistrates who were long since predicted to become nursing Fathers to the Church under the Gospel have much more power and jurisdiction in Church-government and affairs within their own Dominions 3 For that it appears to be away that will breed infinite confusions disorders by confounding v the bounds of parishes renting Congregations families and most relations assunder giving way to every sect to chuse Ministers erect Churches of their own without controle in point of position though their practise be quite contrary where they have power they admitting no other kind of government but Independency in New-England and excommunicating or banishing those who will not submit unto it a government inconsistent with Royalty and the civill government and so none of Christs who never erected any Church-gouernment to clash with or controle the civill 4 Whereas he pretends that x persons of one family or parish may be members of severall Churches without any inconvenience schisme or distraction as well as members of severall companies and trades and therefore Ind-pendency is no occasion of divisions I answer 1 That y two cannot walke peaceably and-lovingly together unlesse they are agreed especially in matters of Religion and those who in point of conscience cannot communicate or agree together in one Church will never questionlesse accord well together in one family bed parish kingdom as experience manifests 2 There is a great difference between severall trades and Halls in one City parish kingdome and severall formes of Church-government in these particulars which occasion unity in the one but schismes in the others 1. All trades societies hold one another lawfull usefull necessary agreeable to the lawes of God and the Realme without dispute so they breed no contrariety of opinions or disaffection but each different Church deems the other unlawful in no way of Christ so as they cannot with safe conscience joyn or communicate together and thereupon they fever one from another 2. Every several trade and society even in their very trade is subject to the general Government Laws of the City Realm wherin they are to which they appeale and have recourse upon all occasions of difference none craving an exemption or Independency from the whole Corporation Parliament or supream Magistrate in matters which concern their government but deriving their Corporations Charters Laws and priviledges from them which subordination keep them all in peace and unity But Independent Churches deny any subordination subjection to the Ecclesiasticall Lawes and Edicts of Parlements of temporall Magistrates or Synods and will be regulated obliged onely by their own peculiar Edicts which must needs occasion infinite Schismes and disorders therefore the cases are far different from one the other Thirdly Christians as Christians are all of one and the self-same society and profession as those of one Trade or Calling are therefore they should have all but one common Church and government as these Trades have To set then the comparison upright we must state it thus If some of one Fraternity in London suppose the Merchant-taylers Sadlers Mercers or the like should fall out among themselves and one would have one forme of government another another and thereupon divide themselves into severall conventicles and petty meetings in corners not at their common hall and one chuse one Government Master or Warden another another and so sever the company and continue independent this no doubt would prove an apparent schisme and seminary of infinite divisions to the distraction destruction of the whole Company and Fraternity This is the true state of your Independency yea Mr Goodwins present case in his own Parish miserably divided disordered by his Independent way which hath induced him to refuse to administer the Lords Supper yea Baptisme to some children of