Linguistic DNA - Concept Modelling Demonstrator

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
heaven_n	church_n	earth_n	triumphant_a	4,427	5	11.4398	5	true

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A69095	The third part of the Defence of the Reformed Catholike against Doct. Bishops Second part of the Reformation of a Catholike, as the same was first guilefully published vnder that name, conteining only a large and most malicious preface to the reader, and an answer to M. Perkins his aduertisement to Romane Catholicks, &c. Whereunto is added an aduertisement for the time concerning the said Doct. Bishops reproofe, lately published against a little piece of the answer to his epistle to the King, with an answer to some few exceptions taken against the same, by M. T. Higgons latley become a proselyte of the Church of Rome. By R. Abbot Doctor of Diuinitie.; Defence of the Reformed Catholicke of M. W. Perkins. Part 3	Abbot, Robert, 1560-1618.	1609 (1609)	STC 50.5; ESTC S100538	452,861	494

de notis eccles cap. 7. Si solae vna prouincia retineret veram fidem adhuc verÃ¨ propriÃ¨ diceretur ecclesia Catholica dummodo clarÃ¨ ostenderetur eam esse vnam eandem cum illa quae fuit aliquo tempore vel diuersis in toto mundo if one only countrey should retaine the true faith yet the same should truly and properly be called the Catholike church so that it might cleerely be shewed to be one and the same with that which hath been at any time or times ouer the whole world For by this rule nothing hindreth but that our church though now it be not receiued generally in the greatest part of the Christian world yea if it were but in one onely country yet may truely and properly be called the Catholike church if it be prooued to be one and the same with the church which at any time heeretofore was spred ouer all the world But that our church is the same with that which at the first was spred thorowout the world it is very euident as Tertullian teacheth vs to prescribe g Tert. de praescript adu haeret In eadem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae by consanguinity or agreement of our doctrine with the doctrine of that church For by the Gospell which the Apostles preached the church was founded thorowout the whole world h Iren. lib. 3. cap. 1. Quod quidem tunc praeconiauerunt postea per dei voluntatem in Scripturis nobis tradiderunt fundamentum columnam fidei nostrae futurum The gospell which the Apostles preached they afterwards by the will of God deliuered to vs in the Scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith The same Gospel deliuered to vs in the Scriptures we receiue we adde nothing to it we take nothing from it as we finde it so we teach it Our faith therefore is the same with the faith of that church which at the first was planted thorowout the whole world There is no cause then for vs to forsake our owne church or to thinke that the same began with Friar Luther as this dreamer imagineth which by so plaine deduction is approoued to be the same with the first church and consequently to be truely and properly the Catholike Church Finally saith he they beleeue no church in all points of faith But doth his wisedome finde it in the articles of the Creed that we are to beleeue any church in all points of faith The church how farre to be beleeued in points of faith We are taught there to beleeue that there is a holy catholike Church which is the communion of Saints but nothing doe we finde there of beleeuing any Church in all points of faith We beleeue the Church in points of faith so farre as she yeeldeth herselfe like a faithfull and obedient spouse to be guided by the voice of her Lord and husband Iesus Christ But if the Church preferre her owne will before the word of Christ as the proud harlot of Rome doth it should be a wrong to Christ to beleeue the Church and a way to set vp humane errour in stead of diuine truth It is not the voice of the Church but the word of the written Gospell which God hath appointed as Irenaeus euen now hath told vs to be the foundation and pillar of our faith For the words of the Church are many times the words of errour and vntruth and therefore if we should relie our saluation vpon the credit thereof wee should indeed relie vpon an vncertaine ground and erring guide but the word of the Gospell is alwaies one and the same without any variablenesse or vncertainty and therefore safely may wee relie our saluation thereupon Now therefore it cannot be said but that wee alwaies beleeue one holy catholike Church according to the profession of faith specified in the Creed though sometimes and in some things we doe not beleeue that is credit the visible Church as touching points of faith because the Church sometimes teacheth vs to beleeue otherwise than God hath taught Which though it seeme strange to M. Bishop in that language which he hath learned to speake yet to vs it is not strange who in the Canonicall histories of the Churches both of the old and new Testament do so often see them diuerting and turning from the right way As for that hee saith that our learned masters doe commonly cashiere out of the Creed the addition of the coÌ„munion of saints it is but a fruit of the harnessing of his face and he is therefore bold to say it because he hath learned not to be ashamed of any thing that he list to say That by the Saints are there meant al good Christians all the faithful whether aliue or dead we will not denie Communion of Saints implieth neither Purgatorie nor praier to saints but that either praier to saints or praier for soules in purgatorie belong to this communion of Saints we neuer yet learned and are too old to learne it now For as for the Saints in heauen i Aug. de vera relig cap 55. Honoramus eos charitate non seruitute honorandi propter imitationem non propter religionem adorandi We honour them with loue as Austin saith but not with seruice to follow them by imitation not to adore them by religion and therefore not to pray vnto them Further entercourse as yet there is none betwixt them and vs because k Esay 63.16 they know vs not nor are acquainted with vs nor can we any way acquaint them what wee say vnto them Now beside the Saints triumphant in heauen wee acknowledge none but those that are militant vpon the earth because the holie Ghost diuideth the whole body of the Church into l Eph. 1.10 Col. 1.20 those that are in heauen and those that are in earth and pronounceth them all m Reu. 14.13 blessed that are dead in Christ as who rest from labours and sorrowes and thereby are discharged from all Purgatorie paines But if there be any soules in Purgatorie to which all good Christian soules should yeeld and affoord their helpe to doe them ease and this be one matter of the entercourse and communion of Gods Saints why doth the Pope violate the communion of Saints by withholding from those tormented soules that helpe and ease which he is able to affoord them Surely if he cannot doe them ease then is he an impudent liar and a notable impostour and cozener of the world If he can do it then is he a cruell wretch that without compassion suffereth poore souls to lie broiling in those fierie flames But we rather approoue the former member of this diuision and take him for a liar both for that without warrant hee thrusteth in Purgatorie into the articles of our faith and with lesse warrant challengeth the same for a iurisdiction to himselfe 13. W. BISHOP 10 The forgiuenesse of sinnes

infallibly what is the certaine meaning of euery place Are those holy fathers loth of their labour or are they so busied in other or greater affaires as that they haue no leasure to attend to such trifles Satisfie vs M. Bishop as touching these matters otherwise we must take this deuise to be as indeed it is the couer of your shame the cloake of your apostasie which can no otherwise be shadowed but by this pretense That the Popes sense is the very trueth of Scripture being notwithstanding wholly repugnant contrary to the words In a word the Pope thrusteth out the lawes of Christ which are expressed in the words of Christ and by his sense setteth vp his owne lawes vnder the name of Christ To giue power to the Pope properly to forgiue sinnes as M. Bishop doth is a wicked blasphemie and an Antichristian exalting of him into the place of Christ When the Scribes said within themselues f Mar. 2.7 Who can forgiue sinnes but God only our Sauiour Christ did not contrary them therein but partly by discouering the thoughts of their hearts and partly by the miracle that he wrought taught them to vnderstand him to be God the Sonne of God and therefore that he had power to forgiue sinnes He hath left it therefore so to be conceiued of vs that power to for giue sinnes belongeth to God only g Cyprian de Lapsis Nec remittere aut donare indulgentia sua seruus potest quod in dominum delicto grauiore commissum est The seruant sai he Cyprian cannot for giue that which by hainous traspasse is committed against the Lord. h Cyril in Ioan. lib. 2. cap. 56. CertÃ¨ solius reri dei est vt possit Ã ptceatis homines soluere cui enim alij praeuaricatores legis liberare Ã¢ peccato licet nisi legis ipsius authori Surely it belongeth only to the true God saith Cyrill to be able to release men from their sinnes for who but the maker of the law can free them from offense that are trespassers of the law As for that which M. Bishop obiecteth that Christ said to his Apostles i Iohn 20.23 Whose sinnes ye remitte they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes ye retaine they are retained it no more importeth a power of forgiuing sinnes then the ministers k 1. Tim. 4.16 Sauing them that heare him importeth a power of sauing For as the minister saueth not properly by any power of sauing but only by teaching the way of saluation so he also forgiueth sinnes not properly by any power thereof but by preaching the Gospell of remission of sinnes and designing them to whom belongeth this remission God hath made vs not Lords but l 2. Cor. 3.9 Ministers of the new Testament and of the spirit neither hath he giuen vs the power but m cap. 5.18 The ministry of reconciliation for God was in Christ reconciling the world vnto himselfe not imputing vnto them their sinnes to vs he hath committed only the word of this reconciliation namely whereby we preach and testifie in the name of Iesus Christ remission of sinnes and reconciliation to God to all that repent and beleeue the Gospell But this whole coÌ„mission of forgiuing sins shall be the better vnderstood by those instances by which Cyrill exemplifieth the same n Cyril vt supra Erit autem id duobus vt arbitror modis primÃ² baptismo acinde penitentia Nam aut credentes vitae sanctimonia probates homines ad baptismum inducunt indignos diligenter expellunt c. First in baptisme and afterward in repentance Them that beleeue and approoue themselues by holinesse of life the minister addmitteth to baptisme this is to forgiue their sinnes but carefully he repelleth and putteth backe them that are vnworthy this is to retaine them But of this forgiuenesse of sinnes in baptisme we must remember that which S. Austine saith if at least that booke be his o August scal Paradis cap. 3. Officium baptizandi dominus concessit multis potestatem verÃ² authoritatem in baptismo remittendi peccata sibi soli retinuit The Lord Iesus gaue the office of baptizing to many but the power and authority to forgiue sinnes in baptisme he reserued to himselfe only For the noting of which difference he rightly alleageth the words of Iohn Baptist p Ioh. 1.26.33 I baptize with water but he it is which baptizeth with the holy Ghost Now if to baptize with water to the remission of sinnes be to remitte sinnes in that sense which our Sauiour intendeth in that speech and to baptize with water to remission of sinnes importeth no power for forgiuing sinnes but only a ministery for publication and for the applying of Gods seale for exhibiting and confirming thereof it followeth so far foorth that those words of Christ doe not giue to the minister any power properly to forgiue sinnes Therefore Chrysostome though he terme this ministery in some sort a power yet to shew in what sort it is to be conceiued most notably saith q Chrysost in Ioan. hom 85. Quid sacerdotes dico Neque Angelus neque Archangelus quicquam in his quae a deo data sunt efficere potest sed pater filius sp sanctus omma facit sacerdos linguam manus praebet Not the Priest only but neither Angell nor Archangell worketh any thing in those things that are giuen of God but the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost doth all the Priest putteth too but his tongue and his hand The other instance which Cyrill giueth is r Cyril vt suprÃ Aut ecclesia filijs peccantibus quidem increpant paenitentibus autem indulgent 1. Cor. 5.5 When the minister giueth checke to offendours and to the penitent release Whereof he giueth example in the incestuous Corinthian whom for fornication the Apostle deliuered to Satan for destroying the flesh that the spirit might be saued and afterwards receiued againe that he might not be ouerwhelmed with ouermuch sorow here the Corinthians did forgiue and the Apostle himselfe did Å¿ 2. Cor. 2.7.10 forgiue and thus the terme of forgiuing hath alwaies his place and vse but this forgiuenesse is disciplinary for reconcilement to the Church it is not forgiuenesse of sinnes spiritually and properly so called though by the ordinance of Christ it must be to the peritent a necessary introduction to the assurance and comfort thereof as t See the Answer to the epistle dedicatory sect 28 before hath beene declared I conclude this point with that which Hierome writeth vpon the words of Christ to Peter u Matt. 16.19 whatsoeuer thou bindest in earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou loosest on earth shall be loosed in heauen for declaration whereof he saith that z Hieron in Matt. 16. Quemodo ibs sacerdos leprosum facit mundum velimmundum non quÃ² sacerdotes leprosos faciant immundos sed quÃ²

Sunne and in the Moone and vpon the crosse that is in many places and that c Idem in Ioan. er 31. CÃ¹m ad alium locum venerit in eo loco vnde venit non est When he is come to another place he is not in the place from whence he came and therefore that d Vigil cont Eutich lib. 4. Quando in terra fuit caro Christi non erat vtiâ— in coelo nunc quia in coelo est non est vtique in terra The body of Christ when it was vpon earth was not in heauen and now because it is in heauen it is not vpon the earth that e Ambr. in Luc. l. 1. c. 24. Ergo non supra terram nec interra nec secundum carnem ti quaerere debemus si volumus inuenire c. Stephanus tetigit quia quaesiuit in coele If we will find Christ we must not seeke him in the earth nor vpon the earth nor according to the flesh but in heauen They would neuer haue spoken thus without any limitation or exception if they had beleeued that which M. Bishop heere would make vs beleeue out of the doctrine of the church of Rome that the body of Christ may be in infinite places at once that it may be together both in heauen and earth with forme and without forme both visible and inuisible both circumscribed and vncircumscribed that is to say by a plaine contradiction both that that it is and that that it is not Surely they would haue saied as we doe If it be visible it cannot be inuisible or if it be inuisible it cannot be visible if it haue forme then it is not without forme or if it be without forme how should it be said to haue any forme both these cannot stand together True saith M. Bishop in one and the same maner of existence and being And say I if it be but one and the same body it can at once haue but one maner of existing and being for according to the same or totally to be thus not thus cannot agree to one and the same thing As for his instances whereby hee would take away the improbabilitie of this fancie they are altogether ridiculous Christ saith hee when hee was transfigured had another maner of outward forme and appearance then he had before and after his resurrection when it pleased him hee was visible to his Apostles and at other times inuisible And what then Ergo Christs body may be in many places at once it may together be both visible and inuisible and whatsoeuer pleaseth them But a man may euen as well say M. Bishop is sometimes hot and sometimes cold somtimes asleepe sometimes awake sometimes sober sometimes merrie sometimes like a schollar sometimes like a swaggerer sometimes at Rome sometimes in England ergÃ² hee may at one time be together both asleepe and awake both visible and inuisible both at Rome and in England and in many places at once so that though by Parsons procurement he were fast laied vp in prison yet he might at the same time be personally before the Pope to acquaint him with the appeale of the secular Priests and the exorbitant dealing of the Iesuites against them What will he not call him a dreaming Sophister that should conclude thus Well then let him for his paines take his fellow to him and learne to argue more wisely another time But marke heere gentle Reader that M. Bishop maketh Philosophie a witnesse of this matter We haue thought heeretofore that they rested the same wholly and meerely vpon the omnipotent power of God and haue obserued how their schoole-philosophers when they speake of relation of bodies to their places do except this matter of the reall presence as a matter of irregularity not comming within compasse of the rules of Philosophy but farre transcendent aboue all their learning Now M. Bishop will make vs beleeue that it standeth with good Philosophy and that all their Philosophers haue all this while beene deceiued marrie it is woorth the while to note in what termes and how warily he hath set it downe The externall relations of bodies vnto their places do no whit at all destroy their inward and naturall substances as all Philosophy testifieth You say well M. Bishop and very wisely Indeed it is not relation to a place but the want of relation to a place that taketh away the nature of a body For f Aug. epist 50. spatia locorum tolle corporibus nusquam erunt quia nusquam erunt nec erunt take from bodies space of place saieth Austin and they shall be no where and because they shall be no where they shall not be at all g Cyril de Trinit lib. 2. si corpus in loco omninÃ² in magnitudine in quantitaete si quanta facta esset non effugeret cireumscriptionem If it be a body saith Cyrill then verily it is in a place and hath greatnesse and quantitie and if it haue quantitie it cannot be but that it must be circumscribed h Didym de spâ—sancto l. 2. si spiritus veritatis iuxta naturas corporum circumscriptus est certo spacio alium deserens locum ad alium commigrauit It is the nature of a body saieth Didymus to be circumscribed in a certaine space and therefore by comming into one place it must forsake another You therefore affirming the body of Christ vncircumscribed and hauing no commensuration or space of place and comming into one place without the leauing of another doe thereby vtterly destroy the nature of a body i Ibid. Impossibile est impium ista quae diximus in corporalibus credere It is impossible and a thing impious saith Didymus to beleeue these things concerning bodily substances This was the Philosophy that these Fathers had learned They knew by Philosophy and by trueth that a body must haue extension of parts and one part different and distant from another and place correspondent to euerie part so that where one part is there another cannot be and the whole so limited to one place as that without leauing that place it cannot be in another but neither did Philosophy nor Diuinitie teach them that vncircumscribed body which M. Bishop speaketh of 3. W. BISHOP Secondly Master PERKINS chargeth vs with disgrading Christ of his offices saying that for one Iesus Christ the only King law-giuer and head of the Church they ioine vnto him the Pope not only as a Vicar but as a fellow in that they giue vnto him power to make lawes binding in conscience to resolue and determine infallibly the sense of holy Scripture properly to pardon sinne to haue authority ouer the whole earth and a part of hell to depose Kings to whom vnder Christ euery soule is subject to absolue subjects from the oath of allegeance c. Answer Here is a bed-role of many superfluous speeches for not one of all these things if

et graues viros reformidat hic noster clerus Now is piety and religion waxen very cold I will not say barefooted but hauing on their hose and buskins they scant vouchsafe to kneele downe to pray They weepe not as they goe or whilest the Sacrifie is in hand but they laugh and that impudently euen of them I speak whom their purple robes make more eminent than others They sing not the hymnes for that seemeth too base a matter but they tell iests and tales to make one another laugh What should I say any more the more pratling and wanton a man is so much the more commendation hath he in this corruption of maners This Clergie of ours is afraid of staid and graue men Now if the Clergy of Rome be such M. Bishop I trow of his courtesie will beare with vs if some such vngracious and retchlesse people be found amongst vs. The best is he is not present to see any such matter and therfore vpon his owne surmise may be likly to tel a lie If he were present in our coÌ„gregations specially in townes cities I doubt not but he should see examples enow of them who say of the Church as Iacob did of Bethel h Gen. 28.16.17 How fearefull is this place this is no other but the house of God and this is the gate of heauen surely the Lord is in this place and therefore addresse themselues as Cornelius did when he was to heare the preaching of Peter i Act. 10.33 We are all heerepresent before God to heare all things that are commanded thee of God Concerning the place where our diuine seruice is said he asketh If goodly stately Churches had not beene built to their hands by men of our religion in what simple cotes trow you would their key-cold denotion haue beene content to serue their Lord And why their Lord What M. Bishop is he not your Lord as well as ours But it is true indeede that you haue another Lord whom you haue stiled k Extrauag Ioan. 22. Cum inter in glossa Dominus deus noster papa Our Lord God the Pope and must we thinke that your seruice is done to him But if we had had no other but simple cotes wherein to serue God we suppose our deuotion should haue beene as well accepted as in goodly and stately Churches The time was when the Apostles and first Christians did serue God in simple cotes and in the times of l Arnob. cont gent. lib. 6. Origen contra Cel. l. 3. 7. Arnobius and Origen the Pagans vpbraided them with the want of stately Churches and yet M. Bishop I thinke will not say but that they serued God as religiously as now they doe in the church of Rome Stately Temples as they are sometimes the fruits of true deuotion so they are sometimes matters of ambitious ostentation and sometimes the dotages of abominable superstition Herod the King euen hee that would haue murthered our Sauiour when hee was but new borne to shew his roialty and magnificence and to gaine fauour of the Iewes builded m Ioseph Antiquit Iudaâ— li. 15. c. 14. the Temple of Ierusalem most gloriously and farre more neerely to the paterne of Salomons Temple than when after the captiuity they restored it the second time so as that we see the Disciples in the Gospell admiring n Mar. 13.1 Luk. 21 5. the goodly stones and buildings of it Origen mentioneth o Origen cont Cels li. 3. Splendida sana cum lucis templa cum vestibulis porticibus eximia magnitudine atque pulchritudine mirandis introgressus autem videbit adorari felem aut simiam c. the goodly Chapels and Temples of the Aegyptians with thier entries and porches admirable for thier maruellous greatnesse and fairenesse into which when yee were come yee should see them worship a cat or an ape or a crocodile or a goat or a dogge The Temple p Act. 19.27 of Diana was a most goodly thing and renowmed thorow the whole world And surely what M. Bishop now saith to vs the same might the Pagans haue said to our forefathers when they were first Christians They might haue asked them in what simple cotes they would haue serued Christ if men of their religion had not builded to their hands goodly Temples which by q Greg li. 9. ep 71. Fana idolorum in eadem gente aestrui minin Ã¨ debent c. si fana eadem benÃ¨ constructa sunt necesse est vt Ã cultu dae monum in obsequium veri dei debeant commutari Gregories aduice were turned to Christian Churches as in other places also r Lib. 2. indict 11. ep 19. Loca quondam execrandu erroribus deputata in Catholicae religionis reuerentiam dedicare he signifieth they did the like Now if Pagans in this respect were not inferiour to Papists then it is not to be a question by whom Churches were built but by whom they are rightly vsed By whomsoeuer they were built we now vse them for the exercise of true religion to the glory of God neither is our religion so cold in the setting forward of good workes but that whether by collections or otherwise wee maintaine and vphold both Church and steeple thankes be to God to that vse and we hope shall so doe to their griefe and sorrow vntill the worlds end Neither is it any disgrace to our times that collections are now generally made to such ends and purposes but rather a commendation that so many are now found so ready to contribute to such acts of piety which M. Bishop will haue vs thinke were done in former times only by some few The widowes Å¿ Mar 12.42 two mites were more with God than the great offerings of the rich men and we hope that the small helpes which we seuerally giue according to our ability for the maintenance of Gods seruice are as well accepted with God as the magnificence of them who out of their abundance and superfluity haue performed so great acts theÌ„selues alone These mites being put together doe that thankes be to God that is necessary to be done and I thinke it is more than M. Bishop can iustifie that they did not in those times wherof he speaketh vse such general collections for the doing of the like things Whether they did or not it skilleth not we know that t Exo. 35.5.21 the Tabernacle of God was built in effect by such collections and God promised to dwell in it and we doubt not but he is also present with vs in our Tabernacles which by such meanes are mainteined to serue him To be short that they by whom churches were built since the faith of Christ heere receiued were all of their religion is but a vaine presumption of M. Bishop and a meere vntruth as in part hath beene declared u Answer to the Epistle sect 31.36 before and heereafter if God will vpon another occasion shall

appeare further As for his other quarrell that we haue in our churches neither Altars nor Images it pleaseth vs the better for that we finde the same also obiected to the first Christians by x Celsus apud Origen cont Cels l. 7. Non ferunt templa aras statuas inspicere lib. 8. Celsus ait nos ararum statuaruÌ„ templorumque dedicationes fugere Celsus the Pagan We like well to be vnlike to the Church of Rome so that we may be like to them For M. Bishop we know him to be a man much delighted with babies a trimme gilded Rood and a goodly faire Lady they are the ioy of his heart Let God say what he will that y Esay 44 10. the Image is profitable for nothing and that z Ierem. 10.8 the stocke is a doctrine of vanity yet he will not be perswaded but that the sight of these goodly Idols is the only way to procure heauenly meditation As for sentences of Scripture to be set vp vpon the Church walles that is but dawbing it is but Ale-house fashion and no heauenly meditation groweth thereof But may we not thinke that he came from the Ale-house when he wrot this and that he is indeed fitter for an Ale-house than for the Church What must we thinke that the looking vpon a dumbe and dead stocke is fitter to mooue heauenly meditation than the liuelie word of God But we see his meaning well enough it is this Scripture that troubleth him his stomacke can by no meanes brooke this Scripture to haue Gods commandement written vpon the church wals as by order it is appointed a Exod. 20.4 Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image nor the likenesse of any thing that is in heauen aboue or in the earth beneath c. Thou shalt not bow downe to them nor worship them c. This is it that galleth him to the soule this is it that vexeth him in behalfe of his faire and religious pictures that no bowing downe no holy and religious worship may bee done to them But it is nothing to vs that wee offend him God himselfe who said of his Commandements b Deut. 6.9 Thou shalt write them vpon the postes of thine house and vpon thy gates did not thinke it Ale-house fashion to haue them written vpon Church-walles but that we should set vp Altars and Images in our Churches wee doe not finde any warrant to haue come from him His last exception is very idle It was the ancient custome of Christians to pray with their faces towards the East So is it ours also as appeareth vsually in all our Churches Yea but our Ministers in their highest mysteries looke into the South Well and so is it alleaged by Bishop Iewell that c Bish Iewel Replie art 3. Diuis 26. at this day in the great Churches at Millaine Naples Lions Mentz and Rome and in the Church of Saint Laurence in Forence the Priest in his seruice standeth towards the West hauing his face full vpon the people and that heereupon Durand saith that in such places the Priest needeth not to turne himselfe round when he saith Dominus vobiscum and saluteth the people as otherwise hee is woont to doe And why not our Ministers towards the South as well as theirs towards the West Will he haue vs to conclude heereof that their religion is now declining and going downe If not let him acknowledg then the folly of his owne collection that our spirituall state is now at the highest and that in our religion there is no hope of rising towards heauen but assurance of declining Albeit I must aduertise him briefely that true religion wherby the Sunne of righteousnesse shineth vnto vs and whereby we rise to heauen hath beene subiect to such condition to bee sometimes rising sometimes at the height and sometimes declining againe yea sometimes woonderfully eclipsed and hidden in a maner quite out of sight yet notwithstanding it neuer had such a fall but that as the sunne it hath had a time to rise againe But the whore of Babylon the persecutour of true religion albeit she haue flattered herselfe in the security of her state and said of herselfe d Reuel 18.7 I sit like a Queene and am no widow and shall see no mourning yet shee hath begun to fall and notwithstanding the props and staies that her louers vse to hold her vp shall fall daily more and more neuer to rise againe God hauing so foretold vs that e Vers 21. as a milstone shee shal be cast with violence into the sea thencefoorth to be found no more 21. W. BISHOP I may not heere omit that of late yeeres they haue caused the Kings armes to be set vp in the place where Christs armes the Crucifix was wont to stand the which I confesse would haue graced their Church better if it had beene elsewhere placed But I hope they will giue mee leaue to aske them how they durst set vp any such Images in their Churches as be in that armes For they haue taught hitherto that it is expresly against the second commandement and a kinde of Idolatry not only to worship Images but also to set them vp in Churches and yet now as it were cleane for getting themselues they fall into that fault themselues that they haue so much blamed in others Neither will it helpe them to say that they reprooued only the setting vp of holy pictures but not of others For the second commandement as they expound it is aswell against the one as the other forbidding generally the making of any kinde of Image And is it not a pitifull blindnesse to thinke that the pictures of Lions and Liberts do better become the house of God than the Image of his owne Son and of his faithfull seruants And may not simple people thinke when they see Christs armes cast downe and the Princes set vp in their place that there dwell men who make more account of their Princes honour then they doe of Christs And that their meeting in that place call it what you will is rather to serue their Prince than to serue Christ But I haue beene longer in their place of praier than I thought R. ABBOT The King is a great mote in M. Bishops eie and therefore he could not heere passe by without a quarrell to the Kings armes The Kings armes lawfully set vp in our Churches and not popish images We haue placed hee saith the Kings armes where Christs armes the Crucifixe was woont to stand But who made M. Bishop a herauld to assigne armes to Christ and that without any priuity or liking of Christ himselfe Did Christ euer tell him or any man else that he meant to giue a Crucifixe for his armes This is a fantasticall imagination neither did Christ take course by a picture but by the word of the Gospell to be a Gal. 3.1 described before our eies as crucified amongst vs. But if the

good by the touchstone because no exposition or sense of Scripture is to be admitted the doctrine whereof is not to be iustified by other Scripture and they that bring other senses and meanings do but deceiue men and leade them into errour as other heretikes formerly haue done and as the Papists now doe abusing the Scriptures to draw others after them into destruction Heereof also enough hath beene said g Of Traditions sect 21. before whereof I wish the Reader duely to consider for his satisfaction in this point That which he saith of other ancient Creeds and Confessions of faith that they containe not all points of Christian doctrine I eaily admit but yet let him vnderstand that it is a maine preiudice against them that neither any ancient Creed nor any exposition of the Creed or confession of faith conteineth sundry pointes which they now make to be matters of the meaning of the Creede Let him shew that euer any ancient Creed or expositour of the Creed did vnderstand or deliuer that the name of the Catholike church in the Creed hath any speciall reference to the Church of Rome that the Catholike church is to be defined as they now define it by being subiect to the bishop of Rome that the certaine declaration of the Canonicall bookes and of the true sense of Scripture is alwaies infallibly to be expected from the sentence of that Church that all Christians are fully to beleeue and wholly to relie vpon that Church for resolution of all points of faith necessarie to saluation Which and such other points made by them matters of the Creed because neuer any ancient writer hath found to be conteined or intended in the Creed therefore we iustly affirme them to be new Creed-makers coiners of new articles of faith and thereby peruerters and corrupters of the true Christian faith As concerning the Articles mentioned by M. Perkins now holden by the Romish Church that the Pope is Christs Vicar and head of the Catholike Church that there is a purgatorie fire after this life that images of God and of Saints are to be worshipped that praier is to be made to Saints departed and their intercession to bee required that there is a propitiatorie sacrifice daily offered in the Masse for the sinnes of quicke and dead M. Bishop answereth that the Fathers haue most plainly taught them in their writings and expresly condemned of heresie most of the contrary positions But what Fathers are they and in what writings haue they so done Surely if the Bishop of Rome in the ancient Church had beene taken to bee the Vicar of Christ and head of the Catholike church it cannot be but that we should haue very currant and frequent and memorable testimonie thereof as a matter vniuersally receiued and euery where practised But now let M. Bishop shew vs one let him shew so much as one that for diuers hundreds of yeeres after Christ did euer dreame of any such thing Which though indeed he cannot doe yet hee telleth vs of that and the rest that in those seuerall questions he hath before prooued what he saith whereas hee hath not spoken of any more of these points saue onely one and in that one point cannot be said to haue prooued any thing because whatsoeuer hee hath said standeth hitherto reprooued And surely if he haue no better proofes than hitherto he hath brought in all the questions that hee hath handled the Protestants will but scorne him as a very vnproouing disputer and aduise him to bestow his time a while longer in the Schooles to know what it is to prooue 3. W. BISHOP Touching beleeuing in the Church which he thrusteth in by the way we vse not that phrase as the very Creed sheweth following therein S. Augustine with others who hold that to beleeue in a thing is to make it our Creatour by giuing our whole heart vnto it in which sense we beleeue not in Saints nor in the Church albeit some other ancient Doctors take the words to beleeue in not so precisely but say that we may beleeue in the Church and in Saints that is beleeue certainly that the Catholike church is the onely true company of Christians and that to the lawfull gouernours thereof it appeâ—taineth to declare both which bookes be Canonicall and what is the true meaning of all doubtfull places in them so we beleeue the Saints in heauen to heare our prayers to be carefull to pray for vs and to bee able to obtaine by intreaty much at Gods hands in whose high fauour they liue Thus much in answer vnto that which M. PERKINS obiecteth in generall Now to that he saith in particular R. ABBOT a Greg. Nazia de sp sancto orat 6. Sâ—â—reatuÌ„ est quo pacto in ipsum eredimu c. Non enim idem est in aliquem credere de eo credere nam illud diuimt atis est hoc cuiusuis rei It is one thing saith Gregory Nazianzene to beleeue in any one another to beleeue of or concerning him the one belongeth to the Godhead the other is vsed of euery thing And heereby hee prooueth that the holy Ghost is God because wee beleeue in the holy Ghost By which argument our Sauiour Christ also teacheth vs to acknowledge him to be God when he saith b Ioh. 14.1 Yee beleeue in God beleeue also in me where c Hilar. de Trin. lib. 9. Vniens se fidei dei naturae eius vniuit c. deumse per id docens cum in eum credendum sit ab his qui in deum credant vniting himselfe to the beleefe of God saith Hilarie he vniteth himselfe also to his nature thereby teaching that he himselfe is God for that they who beleeue in God must beleeue in him I might further enlarge this point by the testimonies and expositions of d Aug. in Ioan. tract 29. de ciu dei l. 18. ca. 54. Euseb Emissen Ruffin Venant in symbol Apost Austin Eusebius Emissenus Ruffinus Venantius and others who all acknowledge that that phrase belongeth to God and is not to bee applied to any creature But it shall not neede because the Elucidatour of the Romane Catechisme according to the doctrine of the Catechisme it self as he pretendeth though quite contrary both to their doctrine and practise otherwise doth tell vs that e Elucidat Catech Roman c. 9. q. 5. CÃ¹m dicimus nos credere in deum patrem in filium in sp sanctum phrasis haec loquendi significat nos ita credere deum patrem filium spiritu sanctuÌ„ vt etiam in eis omnem fiduciam nostram collocemus quam in deo solo non autem in creaturis ponere possumus ex quibus tamen ecclesia composita est when wee say wee beleeue in God the Father in the Sonne in the holy Ghost this phrase of speaking doth signifie that wee so beleeue God the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost as that also we place all

purpose he misinforceth the testimony of Epiphanius whereby he would exempt Aerius from the crime of heresie iustly laied vnto his charge by S. Austin and many others But I answer him that though as a man I may be deceiued yet God hath giuen me more grace than that in these matters I will willingly deceiue my selfe In this matter of Epiphanius I do not take my selfe in any sort to be deceiued His conclusion against Aerius as touching praier for the dead is this r Epiphan haer 75. Ecclesia necessâ—râ—Ã² hoc perficit traditione Ã patribus accepta quis autem poterit staturum matris dissoluere aut legem patris velut Solomon dicit Audi fili fermones patris tui ne repudies statuta matris tuae ostendens per hoc quÃ²d in scriptu sine scripto decuit pater mater autem nostra ecclesia habet statuta in se posita indissolubilia quae dissolui non pâ—ssuntâ—â— CÃ¹m itaque ordi nata sint in ecclesia statuta benÃ¨ se habeant omnia mirabâ—ittÃ¨r fiant confutaâ—us est tursus etiam hic seductor The Church necessarily doth this by tradition receiued from the Fathers and who may dissolue the statute of his mother or the law of his Father as Solomon saith My sonne heare thy Fathers words and refuse not thy Mothers statutes heereby shewing that both in writing and without writing the Father hath taught and our Mother the Church hath statutes set downe in her which are inuiolable and may not be broken Seeing then saith hee that there are statutes ordeined in the Church and they are well and all things are admirably done this seducer is confuted Now then doe I say that praier for the dead is a tradition Epiphanius saith the same that the Church doth it by tradition from the Fathers Doe I say that he maketh it a statute or ordinance of the Church He himselfe expresly calleth it so and finally presseth the authority of the Church onely for the confuting of Aerius He alleageth no Scripture his words import that he hath none to alledge Onely to grace the ordinances of the Church he wresteth a saying of Salomon nothing pertinent thereto as if we were taught that God without scripture teacheth vs by the Church And if he meane any otherwise but that it is the ordinance of the Church very vainly and idlely doth he heere name the ordinance of the Church But M. Higgons will say that though Epiphanius name it thus a tradition and an ordinance of the Church yet he meaneth it to be such a tradition and ordinance as is from the Apostles But let him meane what he will yet so long as he maketh it a tradition without Scripture my words stand good which I vsed to M. Bishop Å¿ Answer to Doct. Bishops epistle sect 10. pag. 79. 80. Epiphanius resolueth vs that praier for the dead is a matter of tradition and an ordinance of the Church and therefore freeth vs from any trespasse against any thing that Moses or the Prophets or Christ and his Apostles in the Scriptures haue deliuered vnto vs. If it be no matter of Scripture with Epiphanius then I say rightly that he cleereth vs from impugning therein any thing that is deliuered in the Scriptures Albeit because it is by Epiphanius his confession a tradition without Scripture therefore we resolue vndoubtedly that it came not from the Apostles because whatsoeuer they taught concerning faith and saluation is conteined in the Scriptures as before hath beene shewed at large Yea and how vnsoundly Epiphanius vrgeth Apostolike tradition is to be seene in the point which he speaketh of immediately before where he saith that t Epiphan haer 75. Decreuerunt Apostoli quarta prosabbato ieiunium per omnia excepta Pentecoste de sex diebus Paschatis praecipiunt nihil omninÃ² accipere quÃ m panem salem aquam the Apostles decreed a fast vpon Wednesdaies and Fridaies continually saue betwixt Easter and Whitsuntide and that six daies before Easter men should receiue nothing but bread and salt and water whereas S. Austin professeth that u Aug. epist 86. Quibus diebus non oporteat ieiunare quibus oporteat praecepto Domini vel Apostolorum non inuenio de finitum what daies to fast or what daies not to fast he findeth it not defined or set downe by any commandement of Christ or his Apostles and by Tertullian it appeareth that the Primitiue Church alledged against the Montanists x Tertul. de ieiunio sic Apostolos obsernasse nullum aliud imponentes iugum certoruÌ„ in coÌ„mune â—mnibus obeundorum â—etunorum that the Apostles imposed no yoke of standing and common fasts and of the Lent-fast Socrates resolueth that y Socrat. hist. li. 5. c. 21. Quoniam nemo de ea praeceptum literarum monumentis proditum potest osteÌ„dere perspicuum est Apostolos liberam potestatem in eadem cuiusque menti arbitrio permisisse vt quisque nec metu nec necessitate inductus quod bonum est faceret because no man can shew any written commandement thereof it is manifest that the Apostles left it free to euery mans will and discretion that without feare or necessity euery man should doe what good is Now we cannot wonder that he that would thus vnaduisedly name Apostolike tradition for the one should do the same for the other also Albeit if M. Higgons can iustifie praier for the dead according to Docter Fields rule we will not sticke with him to grant it to be an Apostolicall tradition But he might haue seene that I had put it without the compasse of that rule if he had been desirous to know the truth and had not resolued first vpon other occasions to fall away and afterwards to seeke shifts to excuse his fall I shewed by Origen that the Church at first vsed no praier for the dead by the authour of the ecclesiasticall Hierarchy that when it was first vsed it was vsed onely for iust and holy men of whose soules they were resolued that they were in heauen for what causes I haue expressed there by Epiphanius that they added afterwards to pray for euill men also and publicke offenders by Austin that there was not knowen any definite and certaine vse and effect of praiers and offerings for the dead and that many in his time did plead that if any good were to be done for the soule after death it should rather be by it owne confession of sinnes than by offerings procured by other men And lastly whereas praier for the dead by M. Higgons confession dependeth vpon Purgatory I shewed by Austins expresse words that he had no certaine beleefe or knowledge of any such place which are more cleere to that purpose than that by any Popish sophistications they can be shifted or deluded 36. Albeit I did not only alledge him doubting of Purgatory but also plainly excluding it vpon occasion by denying any third place

condition of fraile and sinfull flesh Now because no part of this could be imported in that memoriall if it were a thankesgiuing for the Saints therefore whether M. Higgons will or not it must necessarily be taken to haue been a praier for them And heereof there is one argument more in the last part of the comparison when he saith of Christ that he is in heauen and of the Saints that they are in the earth by their bodies yet resting in the earth Where it hath some reason that they should say We pray for them as respecting that their bodies lie yet in the dust of the earth expecting a blessed and happy resurrection which we craue to bee reuealed vpon them but to say that they meant to giue thanks to God for that the bodies of the Saints lie buried in the earth it were senslesse and absurd And because it is confirmed vnto vs by the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy that the Church did pray for the dead in respect of the resurrection therefore wee cannot doubt but that the memoriall heere spoken of by Epiphanius vsed for the Saints in respect of their bodies in the earth was a praier for them to wish their full and perfect consummation by the resurrection from the dead My former conclusion therefore hence deduced standeth good that sith the ancient Church thus praied for the Saints and Martyrs therefore that certaine it is they did not pray vnto them And because they thus praied for the Saints whose soules they were assured were in heauen therefore they praied for the dead without respect of Purgatory which now is made the onely ground and reason of praier for the dead 38. The next matter for which he questioneth me is concerning the opinion of the Greeke churches as touching Purgatory and prayer for the dead My words are such as might haue serued to weaken his motiue had hee not beene resolued without any motiue to remooue and run away What could he haue better to resolue him then that which I say that the Papists themselues confesse that Purgatory was not receiued or beleeued in the Greeke Churches and therefore that it is certaine that they had no respect of Purgatory in their praier for the dead I did not onely say that the Papists confesse it but I cited the places of their confession Alfonsus De Castro saith k Alfons De Castro adu haeres lib. 8. tit de Indulgent In antiquis scriptoribus de Purgatorio ferÃ© nulla mentio potissimum apud Graecos Scriptores quae de causa vsque in hodiernum diem purgatorium non est a Graecis creditum Of Purgatory there is in a maner no mention at all with the ancients but specially with the Greeke writers for which cause Purgatory is not beleeued of the Greekes vntill this day Yea not of the Greekes only but of the Armenians also he acknowledgeth that l Ibid lib. 12. de purgatorio vnus ex notissimis erroribus Graecorum Armeniorum est quo docent nullum esse Purgatorium c. they teach there is no Purgatory calling it an errour well knowen concerning them both The words of Roffensis their great and holy Martyr I cited out of Polydore Virgil m Polyd. Virg. de inuent rer lib. 8. cap. 1. ex Roffensi De Purgatorio apud priscos nulla vel quÃ m rarissima fiebat mentio sed Graecis ad hunc vsque diem non est creditum esse Of Purgatory there was none or very rare mention made amongst the ancient Fathers yea and with the Greekes it is not beleeued till this day Thus did they ingenuously acknowledge as the truth is and did it nothing stagger M. Higgons to finde this so plainly acknowledged Did it make him nothing doubt of his imagined mutuall dependance of Purgatory and praier for the dead Surely he was a very voluntary conuert or else he might easily haue seene that it is no good connexion to say They praied for the dead therefore they beleeued Purgatory but rather they beleeued not Purgatory therefore they praied not for the dead in any such meaning as the Papists now doe He might haue remembred that which I told Doct. Bishop that many amongst vs of custome and of humane affection of loue doe vse many times words of praier for the dead who notwithstanding from the bottome of their hearts doe vtterly defie both Purgatory and the Pope 39. In another place hee saith that it is n Book 1. part 2. cap. 3. Â¶ 4. num 2. to our great disreputation that I name the Albigenses as professours of the same faith and religion which we now prefesse But why Forsooth he knoweth no cause himselfe but referreth his Reader to Parsons the Iesuit in his treatise of the three conuersions of England Yea M. Higgons would you make Parsons his narration a motiue of your recantation Would you giue heed to him whom you knew by the testimony of his owne fellows to be a man of Belial an infamous wretch a meere politizing Atheist and therefore likely if it were to serue his turne to deale with the stories of the ancient Christian Martyrs as he hath done with M. Foxes story carying himselfe in all that worke like a very Porphyrie or Iulian applauding himselfe and seeking to bee applauded in a iollity of forcing all things euen against the haire to scorne and mockery You say the Albigenses in their opinions followed the Waldenses as indeed they were the same some part of them onely being so called of the towne wherein they dwelt and would you beleeue Parsons concerning the opinions of the Waldenses who o Exam. of Fox his calen cap. 3. num 13. Of these WaldeÌ„ses see at large Simon Goulart Catalog test veritatis lib. 15. Where thou shalt see how leaudly Parsons hath dealt with them disclaimeth Aeneas Syluius who was afterwards Bishop of Rome testifying their faith and doctrine vprightly and faithfully as of his owne knowledge that so he may giue way to other either carelesse or malicious reporters who impiously fathered vpon them strange paradoxes in no other sort than Friar p Edm. Campi decem rat cap. 8. passim Campian lately dealt with vs Yea and is not ashamed to cite q Three Conuers pag. 2. c. 10. num 29. Prateolus and Sanders for witnesses thereof whose ioy it hath been to finde out any thing were it neuer so vntrue which they might report opprobrious and disgracefull to them I doubt not but that the Waldenses and Albigenses might happily in some things be otherwise minded than we be and what are they in the church of Rome all in all things of one and the same minde but if wee respect the substance of their faith and doctrine as we may discerne the same not only by r Aeneas Sylu. de Origen Bohem cap. 35. Aeneas Syluius but also by Å¿ Alfons adu haeres passim Alfonsus De Castro and specially by t Sleidan Comment lib. 16.

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