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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56167	A fvll reply to Certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on Master Prynnes twelve questions about church-government wherein the frivolousnesse, falseness, and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer (ashamed of his name) and his weak grounds for independency, and separation, are modestly discovered, reselled : together with certaine briefe animadversions on Mr. Iohn Goodwins Theomachia, in justification of independency examined, and of the ecclesisticall jurisdiction and rights of Parliament, which he fights against / by William Prynne ...	Prynne, William, 1600-1669.	1644 (1644)	Wing P3967; ESTC R3868	34,873	26

you meane it of any other light that is truely such we blesse God for it and desire to walke brotherly and unanimously in it In the seventh he grants that the Law of Nature which instructs men to unite themselves into one Nationall State or civill Government doth likewise teach them to joine themselves into subject themselves unto one Nationall Church and to Nationall Synods Parliaments in point of church-government in which every particular man hath his Vote though not in proper person which hee objects is necessarie but I deny since all cannot possibly assemble yet in their deputies Knights Burgesses or selected Commissioners and though it bee t●ue that Christ hath not given Magistrates such absolute authority over mens consciences as bodies as you object yet hee hath enjoyned us to bee * subject to the higher powers and to every lawfull ordinance of man not repugnant to his Word EVEN FOR CONSCIENCE SAKE and THE LORDS SAKE too For my passage That there is no example of gathering independent Congregations not of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the Christian Faith unlesse derived from the private conventicles of Arrians Novatians Donatists and other Hereticks who yet w●re not independent among themselves it is not a bitter speech as you phrase it but a true one and onely bitter to you because undeniable For as it was the * common practice of those seducing Hereticks Sectaries to gather private Conventicles of their own and labour to draw other orthodox Christians from their proper Ministers to incorporate themselves into their private separated congregations as Historians informe us So no such practice of alluring and stealing away other Pastors sheep from their proper Shepheard who first coverted them to and edified them in the faith and grace of Christ can be produced but only in these Hereticks and Sectaries whose practice your Independents imitate As for those private conventicles as he phraseth them for which he saith I may blesse God that I was remembred in them with tears when others durst not name me as I do really blesse God for them and those who remembred me effectually in them so I dare not stile them Conventicles in an ill sense since not † such by Law being only lawfull Assemblies of private Christians to seek unto God by prayer fasting upon extraordinary occasions which all good Christians cannot but approve But all these meetings were farre from being then stiled reputed Independent Churches or having any affinity with them so as they make nothing for his cause 8. To the eighth Quere he gives a negative Answer First in generall next in particular to some instances First he grants that there was a Nationall Church yea Nationall assemblies Parliaments determining church-affaires of the Jewes but these saith he cannot be a pattern for us now because the covenant of the Gospell is not made with any one particular Nation as with the Jewes but to all Nations that embrace the Gospel and beleeve in Christ you have no promise nor prophesie of any Nation to be holy to God but the Jewes Nation when they shall bee called againe To which I reply first That Independents have not the least precept or example for any solemne Covenant made betwixt God and men to walke in the wayes of God c. but onely * in the old Testament and Church of the Israelites and that no private congregationall but publ●…ke Nationall covenant prescribed by the supreme temporall Magistrate and Assembly not by the Priests or private Synagogues yea the principall precepts presidents for publike or private fasts sanctifying the Sabbath c. you likewise derive from the old Testament and that Church why then should not their Nationall Church be a pattern for us and you to imitate as well as their Nationall covenant fasting sabbath-keeping the Church of God being all one as it is a Church both under the old Teastament and new and the pattern of it under the Law a better pesident for the Church under the Gospel of which it was a type and fore-runner then the pattern of the Tabernacle shewed in the Mount so frequent in your Lips and Books a president for your Independent Modell to which it hath no analogy 2. This reason is most absurd and false the Covenant of the Gospel extending not onely to particular persons but to * all Nations and people whatsoever who are both prophesied and promised to become Christs own inheritance possession people spouse church and to be an HOLY NATION A PECVLIAR PEOPLE c. to the Lord in infinite Texts both of the old and new Testament which I wonder the Respondent should either not see or forget being ten thousand fold more cleare and visible then his Independent platforme which few or none can yet espy in Scripture History or Politiques 2. He addes that I cannot sh●…w any Nation every member whereof is qualified sufficiently to make up a church which is Christs body unlesse I will take in Drunkards Whore-masters c. to be members of a church whereas the Word saith they must be visible Saints and this cannot be avoided in a Nationall church I answer that I dare not be wiser then my Master Christ who informes me that there will and must be alwayes in the visible church on earth be it Nationall parochiall presbyteriall or congregationall * goats among the sheep chaffe among the wheat which must grow together ●…ill the harvest at the end of the world to wit the day of judgment good fish mixed with the bad in the churches Net 2. I finde a a Judas a Devill among the Apostles many b grosse sinners idolaters and corruptions in the Jewish church many abuses Epicures Drunkards Wh●…re-masters L bertines unclean●… persons and false Teachers in the churches of Galatla Ephesus Colosse Pergamus Smyrna Thyatira and Laodicea yet the Scripture expresly stiles them c the body and churches of Christ and reputes such members though corrupt ones of those Churches who doe not actually cease to be members when excommunicated or suspended for a season after they are baptized and professe the Christian faith nor did any separate from these churches though they had some corruptions and evill members For you therefore to separate from and unchurch such Nationall or Parochial churches which have some such members in them is to unchurch all churches both in the old the new Testament and world it self yea your own churches too 3. The Scripture is expresse d that many are called but few chosen and saved that all must be compelled to come into the church though they want the wedding-garment There never was nor shall be here on earth any one visible church compacted wholly of reall elected Saints without any mixture of Reprobates such a church we shall meet with onely in heaven I am sure you can gather none such on earth 4. Are there no corrupt or drunken members in your independent churches

not then why may not your new-minted Way be a meere erronious By-path and no way of Christ as well as other waies and you erre herein as well as Synods in other things Why will you have the major vote in your congregationall decisions to over-rule and bind the rest to obedience as your practice and opinions intimate since the major part may possibly be mistaken as well as the lesse dissenting Shall nothing binde in any Churches but what is unanimously voted nemine contradicente or shall one or two dissenting voices over-rule the rest or not be bound by the most or where all consent may not all yet be in an errour and not discerne it through selfe-love to their owne wayes and opinions till others of contrary judgements discover and convince them of their errour Away then with this fond argument and evasion Synods and Parliaments may erre in some things Ergo they must binde us in no thing Is this good Logicke or Divinity Good Ministers may and doe erre sometimes in some points of Divinitie Ergo wee will beleeve them in none no not in those things in which they doe not erre Will you throw away all the Apple because one part of it only is rotten or reject Communion with the best of men because they have some infirmities Deal then with the Ecclesiasticall decrees of Synods and Parliaments as in wisdome in conscience you are bound to doe Where they are just equall not opposite to the word embrace submit unto them when erronious or contrariant to the expresse word not to your own sa●…s inferences or opinions you may differ from them in judgment but you must patiently suffer under them in point of practise obedience if meerly practicall till a further season and not disturb the Churches peace by opposition or schism which is as good as seasonable Christian advice as that you conclude with unto me which I heartily wish your selfe had first followed who have more defamed the ways of Christ and used more personall unchristian bitternesse then I am guilty of You wish indeed O that a spirit of love wore maintained among those that are brethren though they differ in judgment must they needs differ in affection I say the same But O then why seperate you from us yea passe uncharitable censures on us as if we were not your Brethren One Kingdom one City House doth now on●… heaven shall heareafter contain us both why not then one church government one Church Militant as well as one Triumphant If you deem not your * selves more holy then your brethren or be not swelled up with spirituall pride as your stiling your selves † Men of rich anoynting from God the most religiously affected and best conscienced people of the land the most precious men c. with your separation from us and harsh censures of us make most men suspect then why refuse you to close with us now as you have done heretofore Could our Ministers Churches when more corrupt convert regenerate edifie save you and yet not now so much as hold you when more refined and reformed If yea then let us both shake hands without any more encounters if nay then fairely chalke out your yet concealed independent way and platforme in all its severall lineaments and beautifull native colours produce your severall punctuall Scriptures Arguments to maintain it there being none of them extant in these your Observations for ought I can find that so I may see the frame and grounds of this new Fabricke in as large or narrow a Modell as you please and then doubt not but an Answer shall be given to what ever you modestly set forth if worthy answer in case it be not satisfactorie or else a friendly embrace thereof if agreeable to the Spirit and Word of truth by him who hath learned Pauls peremptorie resolution 2 Cor. 13. 8. We can do nothing against the truth but for the truth in which resolution God assisting I resolve to live and die Certaine briefe Animadversions on Mr John Goodwins Theomachia in Iusti●…ion of some passages in My Independency Examined Unmasked c. and of the Parliaments Ecclesiasticall power IT is not my intention to repeate or refute all the unseasonable offensive passages in the Epistle or Body of this Treatise which tacitly reflect upon the present Religious Parliament and Assembly raising needlesse feares and jealousies of them both in matters of RELIGION and Church-Government as if they really intended * to increase our misery and bondage by rejecting and oppressing truth to conjure all mens gifts parts industrie into a Synodicall Circle and that there is almost as little hope of gathering grapes from thornes or figges of Thistles as of having the joy of our faith holpen or encreased or any decrease but rather increase of evills by them the resolutions of Councells and Synods themselves upon the matter and just account being but the fruits or puttings forth of the learning and judgment of a very few men not alwayes of the most consciencious c. I shall only select some few particulars worthy consideration to fill up my vacant Pages First it may be justly questioned whether the maine doctrine prosecuted in it b That it is the greatest imprudence under Heaven for any man or ranke of men whatsoever to appeare or so much as to lift up an hand or thought against any way doctrine or practise whatsoever clayming origination or descent from God till we have securitie upon securitie evidence upon evidence yea all the securitie that men in an ordinary way are capable of and foundations as cleare as the noone day that such wayes Doctrines and practises only pretend unto God as the Author of them and that in truth they are not at all from him but either from men or from baser Parentage that they are but counterfeits and pretenders only and stand in no relation at all but that of emnitie and opposition unto God and tha●… we are not to act the value of one haire of our head against them untill we see their condemnation written with a beame of the Sunne by the finger of God Himselfe untill he hath disclaimed or renounced it from Heaven either by giving such wisedome unto men whereby to detest the vanitie of it or else hath quite rased it out of the flesh and Tables of the hearts of his servants c. Be Orthodox or tolerable For these ensuing reasons 1. First because it opens a wide gate to the reviving of all old the spreading and propagating of all new Heresies Errors Schismes Sects and opinions whatsoever without the least timely opposition or prevention to the endangering of infinite soules and disturbance of the Churches Kingdoms peace For there is * no Hereticke Schismaticke or Sectary whatsoever though never so pernicious grosse or detestable but pretends his way doctrine practise opinions to be the way and truth of Christ clayming their origination and descent from God yea *

producing perverting the Scripture it selfe to justifie them as the * Devill cited and wrested Scripture to tempt Christ yea our Saviour and the Scripture informe us that many false Teachers shall arise and doe great Miracles Signes and Wonders insomuch that they shall deceive many yea the greatest part of the World and if it were possible the very Elect That Satan and his Ministers also transforme themselves into Angels of Light That false Teachers usually come to seduce men in sheeps clothing with all deceiveablenes and craftines whereby they lye in waite to deceive and advise us frequently to beware of such and not admit them into our houses c. And must we therefore not speedly oppose resist avoyd suppresse them or any of them now because they thus pretend they are of and from God Himselfe but stay ●…ll we see their condemnation written with a beam of the sun by the finger of God himselfe and till he hath disclaimed renounced them from Heaven by some visible judgment or destruction If A●…rianisme 〈◊〉 Socinianism Anabaptisme or any anciently exploded Heresies or Schismes should revive and sprout up among us as some have lately done should wee use such indulgence as this towards them because they pretend their origination and descent from heaven and their opinions not disputable only but warranted by the Scripture Alas what confusion what inundation of heresies schismes and monstrous opinions would this presently introduce into our Church to its destruction ruine if such a Paradox were once admitted 2 Secondly Because it is contrary to these expresse precepts and presidents both of the Old and New Testament which you may peruse at leasure Deut. 13. 1. to 18. Levit. 19. 17. Joshua 22. 9. to 24. Psalme 119. 104. 128. 2 Kings 22. 8. to 27. Ier. 4. 30. 31. a pregnant place c. 14. 14. to 18. cap. 23. 13. to 23. cap 27. 15. to 19. c. 29. 8 9. Ezra 13. throughout Matthew 7. 15. cap. 24. 11. 23. 24. 25. 26. Mark 13. 5 6. 22 23 24. Acts 13. 6. to 14. cap 15. 1. to 33. cap. 17. 11. Rom. 16. 17. 18. 2 Cor. 11. 13. 14 15. Galath. 1. 6. 7 8 9 10. c. 2. 4. to 18. a noted place c. 3. 1 2. 3. Ephes. 4. 14 15. Phil. 3. 1. 2. 3. Coloss. 2. 8. 18. to the end 1 Thes. 5. 21. 2 Thes. 2. 1. to 16. c. 3. 6. 7. 1 Tim. 4. 1. to 7. chap. 1. 20. chap 5. 20 21 22. 2 Tim. 2. 16. 17 18. 23 24 25 26. c. 4. 1. to 6. Titus 1. 9. to 15. chapter 3. 9. 10 11. 2 Pet. 2. 1. 2 3. c. 3. 17. 18. 1 Ioh. 4. 2. 3. 2 John 10. 11. Jude 3. 4. c. Revel. 2. 14. 15. 20 21. compared together f Paul would not give way to false Apostles NO NOT FOR AN HOURE that the truth of the Gospell might continue among the Galatians and resisted Peter to his face as soone as ever hee walked disorderly and gave the least countenance to false Teachers though a chiefe Apostle and did not demur upon the matter yea the Churches * of Pergamus and Thyatyra are sharply blamed for suffering some among them to hold the doctrine of Balaam and the Nicolaitans and to suffer Jesabell the Prophetesse to teach and seduce And shall we permit them now without restraint 3 Thirdly Because it is contrary to these received unquestionable Maximes of Divinitie Policie and Morality Principijs obstare Venienti occurrere morbo to withstand the very beginnings of Errors Heresies Mischiefes Schismes to crush these Cockatrices in the shell rather to keep then cast them out Turpius ejicitur quàm non admittitur hostis All wise men hold preventing Physicke best for their bodies states and why not for their souls and Churches since Sero medicina paratur cum mala per longas invaluére moras 4 Fourthly Because contrary to the h Policy practise of most Godly Magistrates Princes Ministers Churches in all Ages Nations which never indulged such liberty to opinions new wayes practises especially to new Church-governments Schismes and Conventicles which he here pleads for set up only by private spirits in opposition to the publick established Church-regelment Indeed in some matters mearly of opinion which are not dangerous or schismaticall some latitude may and must be left to men but matters of Government are such tender things as differences varieties therin cannot be tollerated in one and the selfe same Church and State without infinite inconveniencies and disturbances especially where every Church shall be Independent subject to no other Canons rules but its own peculiar arbitrary Dictates 2 It may be questioned whether the Independent way he there so earnestly pleads for be the way of Christ or not since he neither discovers to us what it is nor produceth any one text to prove it Christs own way nor one example to warrant it in any age but gives us good grounds to suspect it none of his without much scrutiny 1 For first he confesseth i that this way is every where spoken against even by some that would be thought prime men and pillars in the temple of God and insinuates that the Parliament Assembly and generality of the k Ministers and people of the Realm are bent against it Therefore being a new way never yet heard off in the world in any age or Church of Christ and thus generally opposed by our whole Church and State even in these times of Reformation we may l justly suspect it is no way of Christ till we see its approbation written in a beam of the Sun with the finger of God himself and till he hath justified and owned it as his from heaven 2 He tacitly acknowledgeth it a m Government set up by a few private men not only without but against the authority commands of the Parliament and supream temporall Magistrates yea which not only denyes but oppugnes the temporall Magistrates Parliaments Synods directions or coercive power in Ecclesiasticall affairs directly contrary to the Scriptures as I have largely proved by many Texts in my o Independency examined Only I shall adde that not only the Kings and temporall Magistrates of the Israelites but even heathen p Kings and Princes as Cyrus Artaxerxes Darius Nebuchadnezzar the King Nobles of Nineve c. enacted good and wholsom Laws for the worship honor and service of the true God and to further his people in the building of his temple who thereupon were enjoyned to pray for their prosperity as the marginall Scriptures evidence Yea r Paul himselfe even in matters of Religion pleaded his cause before Festus Felix King Agrippa and at last appealed unto Caesar an heathen Emperor herein yea he enjoyns all Christians s to pray even for heathen Kings Magistrates and to submit to all their lawfull commands for conscience sake to whose judicature and tribunals t Christ himself and his Apostels willingly submitted