beg and yet he himselfe brake into heresy because he had been depriued by the Archbishop of Canterbury of a certaine Benefice as all Schismes heresies begin vpon passion which they seeke to couer with the cloake of Reformation Thirdly he condemned lawfull Oaths like the Anabaptists Fourthly he taught that all things came to passe by absolute necessity Fiftly he defended human merits as the wicked Pelagians did namely as proceeding from naturall forces without the necessary help of God's grace Sixtly that no man is a Ciuill Magistrate while he is in mortall sinne and that the people may at their pleasure correcÌ„t Princes when they offend by which doctrine he proues himselfe both an Heretique and a Traytour 53. As for Husse his chiefest Doctrines were That Lay people must receiue in both kinds and That Ciuill Lords Prelates and Bishops loose all right and authority while they are in mortall sinne For other things he wholy agreed with Catholiques against Protestants and the Bohemians his followers being demaunded in what points they disagreed from the Church of Rome propounded only these The necessity of Communion vnder both kinds That all ciuill Dominion was forbidden to the Clergy That Preaching of the word was free for all men and in all places That open Crimes were in nowise to be permitted for auoyding of greater euill By these particulars it is apparant that Husse agreed with Protestants against vs in one only point of both Kinds which according to Luther is a thing indifferent because he teacheth that Christ in this matter (q) In epist ad Bohemos commaunded nothing as necessary And he sayth further If thou come to a place (r) De vtr aâ—â— que specie Sacram. where one only kind is administred vse one kind only as others do Melancthon likewise holds it a thing (s) In Cent. epist. Theol. pag. 225. indifferent and the same is the opinion of some other Protestants All which considered it is cleer that Protestants cannot challenge the Waldenses Wicclifse and Husse for members of their Church although they could yet that would aduaÌ„tage them litle towards the finding out a perpetuall visible Church of theirs for the reasons aboue (t) Num. 49. specifyed 54. If D. Potter would go so farre off as to fetch the Muscouites Armenians Georgians Aethiopians or Abissines into his Church they would proue ouer deare bought For they eyther hold the damnable heresy of Eutiches or vse Circumcision or agree with the Greeke or Roman Church And it is most certayne that they haue nothing to do with the doctrine of Protestants 55. It being therefore granted that Christ had a visible Church in all ages and that there can be none assigned but the Church of Rome it followes that she is the true Cath. Church and that those pretended Corruptions for which they forsooke her are indeed diuine truths deliuered by the visible Catholique Church of Christ And that Luther and his followers departed from her and consequently are guily of Schisme by diuiding themselues from the Communion of the Roman Church Which is cleerely conuinced out of D. Potter himselfe although the Roman Church were but a particular Church For he sayth Whoseuer professes (u) Pag. 70. himselfe to forsake the Communion of any one meÌ„ber of the body of Christ must confesse himselfe consequently to forsake the whole Since therefore in the same place he expressely acknowledges the Church of Rome to be a member of the Body of Christ and that it is cleere they haue forsaken her it euidently followes that they haue forsaken the whole and therefore are most properly Schismatiques 56. And lastly since the crime of Schisme is so grieuous that according to the doctrine of holy Fathers rehearsed aboue no multitude of good workes no morall honesty of life no cruell death endured euen for the profession of some Article of faith can excuse any one who is guilty of that sinne from damnation I leaue it to be considered whether it be not true Charity to speake as we belieue and to belieue as all Antiquity hath taught vs That whosoeuer eyther beginnes or continues a diuision for the Roman Church which we haue proued to be Christs true Militant Church on earth cannot without effectuall repentance hope to be a meÌ„ber of his Triumphant Church in heauen And so I conclude with these words of blessed Saint Augustine It is common (w) Cont. Parm. lib. 2 â—ap 3. to all Heretiques to be vnable to see that thing which in the world is the most manifest and placed in the light of all Nations out of whose Vnity whatsoener they worke though they seeme to doe it with great care and diligence can no more auaile them against the wrath of God then the Spiders web agaynst the extremity of cold But now it is high tyme that we treat of the other sort of Diuision from the Church which is by Heresy CHAP. VI. That Luther and the rest of Protestants haue added Heresy vnto Schisme BECAVSE Vice is best knowne by the contrary Vertue we cannot well determine what Heresy is nor who be Heretiques but by the opposite vertue of Fayth whose Nature being once vnderstood as farre as belongs to our present purpose we shall passe on with ease to the definition of Heresy and so be able to discerne who be Heretiques And this Iâ—ntend to do not by entring into such particular Questions as are controuerted betweene Catholiques and Protestants but only by applying some generall grounds eyther already proued or els yielded to on all sides 2. Almighty God hauing ordayned Man to a supernaturall End of Beatitude by supernaturall meanes it was requisite that his Vnderstanding should be enabled to apprehend that End and Meanes by a supernaturall knowledge And because if such a knowledge were no more then probable it could not be able sufficiently to ouerbeare our Will encounter with human probabilities being backed with the streÌ„gth of flesh and bloud It was further necessary that this supernatural knowledge should be most certaine and infallible and that Fayth should belieue nothing more certainely then that it selfe is a most certaine Beliefe and so be able to beate downe all gay probabilities of humane Opinion And because the aforesayd Meanes and End of Beatificall Vision do farre exceed the reach of naturall wit the certainty of fayth could not alwayes be ioyned with such euidence of reason as is wont to be found in the Principles or Conclusions of humane naturall Sciences that so all flesh might not glory in the arme of flesh but that he who glories should glory (a) 2. Cor. 10 in our Lord. Moreouer it was expedient that our belife or assent to diuine truths should not only be vnknowne or ineuident by any humane discourse but that absolutely also it should be obscure in it selfe and ordinarily speaking be void euen of supernaturall euidence that so we might haue occasion to actuate and testifie the obedience which we owe to our
3. Christ three bundred and sixteen God hath withdrawne his visible Church from open Assemblies to the hearts of particular godly men c. during the space of one thousand two hundred threescore yeares And that the (g) Ibid. in cap. 11. pag 145. Pope and Clergy haue possessed the outward visible Church of Christians euen one thousand two hundred threescore yeares And that the (h) Ibid. pag. 191. true Church aboad latent and inuisible And Brocard (i) fol. 110. 123. vpon the Reuelations professeth to ioyne in opinion with Napier Fulke affirmeth that in the (k) Answere to a counterfait Cath. pag. 16. tyme of Boniface the third which was the yeare 607. the Church was inuisible and fled into the wilernes there to remaine a long season Luther sayth Primò solus eram At the first (l) In praefat operum suorum I was alone Iacob Hailbronerus one of the Disputants for the Protestant party in the Conference at Ratisbone affirmeth (m) In suo Acacatholico volum a. 15. cap. 9. p. 479. that the true Church was interrupted by Apostasy from the true Fayth Caluin sayth It is absurd in the very (n) Ep. 141. beginning to breake one from another after we haue beene forced to make a separation from the whole world It were ouerlong to alledge the wordes of Ioannes Regius Daniel Chamierus Beza Ochimus Castalio and others to the same purpose The reason which cast them vpon this wicked doctrine was a desperate voluntary necessity because they being resolued not to acknowledg the RomaÌ„ Church to be Christs true Church yet being conuinced by all manner of euidence for that diuers Ages before Luther there was no other Congregation of Christians which could be the Church of Christ there was no remedy but to affirme that vpon earth Christ had no visible Church which they would neuer haue auouched if they had known how to auoyd the foresayd inconuenience as they apprehended it of submitting themselues to the Roman Church 10. Agaynst these exterminating spirits D. Potter and other more moderate Protestants professe that Christ alwayes had and alwayes will haue vpon earth a visible Church othertherwise sayth he our Lords (o) pag. 154 promise of her stable (p) Matt. 16 1â—â— edification should be of no value And in another place hauing affirmed that ProtestaÌ„tes haue not left the Church of Rome but her corruptions and acknowledging her still to be a member of Christs body he seeketh to cleere himselfe and others from Schisme because saith he the property (q) pag. 76. of Schisme is witnesse the Donatists and Luciferians to cut off from the Body of Christ the hope of saluation the Church froÌ„ which it separates And if any Zelotes amongst vs haue proceeded to he auier censures their zeale may be excused but their Charity and wisedome cannot be iustifyed And elswhere he acknowledgeth that the Roman Church hath those maine and (r) Pag. 83. essentiall truths which giue her the name and essence of a Church 11. It being therefore granted by D. Potter and the chiefest and best learned English Protestants that Christs visible Church cannot perish it will be needles for me in this occasion to proue it S. Augustine doubted not to say The Prophets (s) In Psalm 30. Com. 2. spoke more obscurely of Christ then of the Church because as I thinke they did foresee in spirit that men were to make parties agaynst the Church and that they were not to haue so great strife concerning Christ therefore that was more plainely foretold more openly prophecyed about which greater contentions were to rise that it might turne to the condemnation of them who haue seen it and yet gone forth And in another place he sayth How doe we confide (t) epist. 48. to haue receaued manifestly Christ himselfe from holy Scriptures if we haue also manifestly receaued the Church from them And indeed to what CongregatioÌ„ shall a man haue recourse for the affaires of his soule if vpon earth there be no visible Church of Christ Besides to imagine a company of men belieuing one thing in their hart and with their mouth professing the contrary as they must be supposed to doe for if they had professed what they belieued they would haue become visible is to dreame of a damned crew of dissembling Sycophants but not to conceiue a right notioÌ„ of the Church of Christ our Lord. And therefore S. Augustine sayth We cannot be saued vnles labouring also for the (u) S. Aug. de fide Symbolo c. 1. saluation of others we professe with our mouths the same fayth which we beare in our harts And if any man hold it lawfull to dissemble deny matters of fayth we cannot be assured but that they actually dissemble and hide Anabaptisme Arianisme yea Turcisme euen Atheisme or any other false beliefe vnder the outward profession of Caluinisme Doe not Protestants teach that preaching of the word and administration of Sacraments which caÌ„not but make a Church visible are inseparable notes of the true Church And therfore they must eyther grant a visible Church or none at all No wonder then if S. Augustine account this Heresy so grosse that he sayth against those who in his tyme defended the like errour But this Church which (w) In Psal 101. hath beene of all Nations is no more she hath perished so say they that are not in her O impudent speach And afterward This voyce so abominable so detestable so full of presumption and falshood which is susteined with no truth enlightned with no wisdome seasoned with no salt vaine rash heady pernicious the Holy Ghost fore saw c. And Peraduenture some (x) De ouib cap. 1. one may say there are other Sheepe I know not where with which I am not acquainted yet God hath care of them But he is too absurd in humane sense that can imagine such things And these men do not consider that while they deny the perpetuity of a visible Church they destroy their owne present Church according to the argument which S. Augustine vrged against the Donatists in these words (y) De Bapt. cont Donat. If the Church were lost in Cyprians we may say in Gregories time from whence did Donatus Luther appeare From what earth did he spring from what sea is he come From what heauen did he drop And in another place How can they vaunt (z) Lib. 3. cont Parm. to haue any Church if she haue ceased euer since those times And all Deuines by defining Schisme to be a diuision from the true Church suppose that there must be a knowne Church from which it is possible for men depart But enough of this in these few words 12. Let vs now come to the fourth 4. Point and chiefest Point which was to examine whether Luther Caluin Luther and all that follow him are Schismatiques and the rest did not depart from the externall
corruptions in doctrine I still speake vpon the vntrue supposition of our Aduersaries could not affoard any sufficieÌ„t cause or colourable necessity to depart from that visible Church which was extant when Luther rose I demonstrate out of D. Potters own confession that the Catholique Church neither hath nor can erre in points fundamentall as we shewed out of his owne expresse words which he also of set purpose deliuereth in diuers other places and all they are obliged to maintaine the same who teach that Christ had alwayes a visible Church vpon earth because any one fundamentall error ouerthrowes the being of a true Church Now as Schoolemen speake it is implicatio in terminis a contradiction so plaine that one word destroyeth the other as if one should say a liuing dead man to affirme that the Church doth not erre in points necessary to saluation or damnably yet that it is damnable to remaine in her Communion because she teacheth errors which are confessed not to be damnable For if the error be not damnable nor against any fundamentall Article of Fayth the beliefe therof cannot be damnable But D. Potter teacheth that the Catholique Church cannot and that the Roman Church hath not erred against any fundamentall Article of Fayth Therfore it cannot be damnable to remaine in her Communion and so the pretended corruptions in her doctrine could not induce any obligation to depart from her Communion nor could excuse them from Schisme who vpon preteÌ„ce of necessity in point of conscience forsooke her And D. Potter will neuer be able to salue a manifest contradiction in these his words To depart from the Church (a) Pag. 75. of Rome in some Doctrine and practises there might be necessary cause though she wanted nothing necessary to saluation For if notwithstanding these doctrines and practises she wanted nothing necessary to saluation how could it be necessary to saluation to forsake her And therfore we must still coÌ„ clude that to forsake her was properly an act of Schisme 20. From the selfe same ground of the infallibility of the Church in all fundamentall points I argue after this manner The visible Church cannot be forsaken without damnation vpon pretence that it is damnable to remaine in her Communion by reason of corruption in doctrine as long as for the truth of her Fayth and beliefe she performeth the duty which she oweth to God and her Neighbour As long as she performeth what our Sauiour exacts at her hands as long as she doth as much as lies in her power to do But euen according to D Potters Assertions the Church performeth all these things as long as she erreth not in points fundamentall although she were supposed to erre in other points not fundamentall Therefore the Communion of the Visible Church cannot be forsaken without damnatioÌ„ vpon pretence that it is damnable to remaine in her Communion by reason of corruption in doctrine The Maior or first Proposition of it selfe is euident The Minor or second Proposition doth necessarily fellow out of D. Potters owne doctrine aboue rehearsed That the promises of our Lord made to his Church for his assistance are to be (b) Pag. 151. extended only to points of Fayth or fundamentall Let me note heer by the way that by his Or he seemes to exclude from Fayth all points which are not fundamentall so we may deny innumerable Texts of Scripture That It is (c) pag. 155. comfort inough for the Church that the Lord in mercy will secure her from all capitall dangers c. but she may not hope to triumph ouer all sinne and error till she be in heauen For it is euident that the Church for as much as concernes the truth of her doctrines and beliefe owes no more duty to God and her Neighbour neither doth our Sauiour exact more at her hands nor is it in her power to do more then God doth assist her to doe which assistaÌ„ce is promised only for points fundamentall and consequently as long as she teacheth no fundamentall error her CoÌ„munion cannot without damnation be forsakeÌ„ And we may fitly apply against D. Potter a Concionatory declamation which he makes against vs where he sayth (d) pag. 221. May the Church of after Ages make the narrow way to heauen narrowier then our Sauiour left it c since he himselfe obligeth men vnder paine of damnation to forsake the Church by reason of errours against which our Sauiour thought it needles to promise his assistance and for which he neither denieth his grace in this life or glory in the next Will D. Potter oblige the Church to do more then she may euen hope for or to performe on earth that which is proper to heauen alone 21. And as from your owne doctrine concerning the infallibility of the Church in fundamentall points we haue proued that it was a grieuous sinne to forsake her so doe we take a strong argument from the fallibility of any who dare pretend to reforme the Church which any man in his wits will belieue to be indued with at last as much infallibility as priuate men can challenge and D. Potter expressely affirmeth that Christs promises of his assistance are not intended (e) Pag. 1â—1 to any particuler persons or Churches and therefore to leaue the Church by reason of errours was at the best hand but to flit from one erring company to another without any new hope of triumphing ouer errours and without necessity or vtility to forsake that Communion of which S. Augustine sayth There is (f) Ep. conâ— Parmen lth 2. çap. 11. no iust necessity to diuide Vnity Which will appeare to be much more euident if we coÌ„sider that though the Church had maintained some false doctrines yet to leaue her Communion to remedy the old were but to add a new increase of errors arising from the innumerable disagreements of Sectaries which must needs bring with it a mighty masse of falshoods because the truth is but one indiuisible And this reason is yet stronger if we still remember that euen according to D. Potter the visible Church hath a blessing not to erre in points fundamentall in which any priuate Reformer may faile and therfore they could not pretend any necessity to forsake that Church out of whose Communion they were exposed to danger of falling into many more and euen into damnable errors Remember I pray you what your selfe affirmes Pag. 69. where speaking of our Church and yours you say All the difference is from the weeds which remaine there and beere are taken away Yet neither heere perfectly nor euery where alike Behold a faire coÌ„fession of corruptioÌ„s still remayning in your Church which you can only excuse by saying they are not fundameÌ„tal as like wise those in the Roman Church are confessed to be not fundamentall What man of iudgment wil be a Protestant since that Church is confessedly a corrupt One 22. I still proceed to impugne you expresly vpon your grounds
the Donatists in whome you exeÌ„plify did by affirming that the true Church had perished and therefore they cannot be cleared from Schisme if you may be their Iudge Consider I pray you how many prime Protestants both domesticall and forraine you haue at one blow strucke off from hope of Saluation and condemned to the lowest pit for the grieuous sinne of Schisme And withall it imports you to consider that you also inuolue your selfe and other moderate Protestants in the selfe same crime and punishment while you communicate with those who according to your owne principles are properly and formally Schismatiques For if you held your selfe obliged vnder paine of damnation to forsake the Communion of the Roman Church by reason of her Errors and Corruptions which yet you confesse were not fundamentall shall it not be much more damnable for you to liue in Communion and Confraternity with those who defend an errour of the fayling of the Church which in the Donatists you confesse (i) pag. 12â— to haue been properly hereticall against the Article of our Creed I belieue the Church And I desire the Reader heer to apply an authority of S. Cyprian ep 76. which he shall find alledged in the next number And this may suffice for confutation of the aforesaid Answere as it might haue relation to the rigid Caluinists 17. For Confutation of those Protestants who hold that the Church of Christ had alwayes a being and cannot erre in points fundamentall and yet teach that she may erre in matters of lesse moment wherin if they forsake her they would be accounted not to leaue the Church but only her corruptions I must say that they change the state of our present Question not distinguishing between internall Fayth and externall Communion nor between Schisme and Heresy This I demonstrate out of D. Potter himselfe who in expresse words teacheth that the promises which our Lord hath made (k) pa. 151. vnto his Church for his assistance are intended not to any particular Persons or Churches but only to the Church Catholique and they are to be extended not to euery parcel or particularity of truth but only to points of Faith or fundamentall And afterwards speaking of the Vniuersall Church he sayth It 's comfort (l) pag. 155. inough for the Church that the Lord in mercy will secure her from all capitall dangers and conserue her on earth against all enemies but she may not hope to triumph ouer all sinne and errour till she be in heauâ—n Out of which words I obserue that according to D. Potter the selfe same Church which is the Vniuersall Church remayning the vniuersall true Church of Christ may fall into errors and corruptions from whence it cleerely followeth that it is impossible to leaue the Externall communion of the Church so corrupted and retaine externall communion with the Catholique Church since the Church Catholique and the Church so corrupted is the selfe same one Church or company of men And the contrary imagination talkes in a dreame as if the errors and infections of the Catholique Church were not inherent in her but were separate from her like to Accidents without any Subiect or rather indeed as if they were not Accidents but Hypostases or Persons subsisting by themselues For men cannot be said to liue in or out of the Communion of any dead creature but with Persons endued with life and reason and much lesse can men be said to liue in the Communion of Accidents as errors and corruptions are and therfore it is an absurd thing to affirme that Protestants diuided theÌ„selues from the corruptions of the Church but not from the Church herselfe seing the corruptions of the Church were inherent in the Church All this is made more cleere if we consider that when Luther appeared there were not two distinct visible true Catholique Churches holding contrary Doctrines and diuided in externall Communion one of the which two Churches did triumph ouer all error and corruption in doctrine and practise but the other was stained with both For to faigne this diuersity of two Churches cannot stand with record of histories which are silent of any such matter It is against D. Potters owne grounds that the Church may erre in points not fundamentall which were not true if you will imagine a certaine visible Catholique Church free from error euen in points not fundamentall It contradicteth the words in which he said the Church may not hope to triumph ouer all error till she be in heauen It euacuateth the brag of Protestants that Luther reformed the whole Church and lastly it maketh Luther a Schismatique for leauing the CoÌ„munion of all visible Churches seeing vpon this supposition there was a visible Church of Christ free from al corruption which therefore could not be forsaken without iust imputation of Schisme We must therefore truly affirme that since there was but one visible Church of Christ which was truly Catholique and yet was according to Protestants stained with corruption when Luther left the external CoÌ„munion of that corrupted Church he could not remaine in the Communion of the Catholique Church no more then it is possible to keep company with Christopher Potter and not keepe company with the Prouost of Queenes Colledge in Oxford if D. Potter and the Prouost be one and the selfe same man For so one should be and not be with him at the same time This very argument drawne from the Vnity of God's Church S. Cyprian v rgeth to conuince that Nouatianus was cut off from the Church in these words The Church is (m) Epist. 16. ad Mag. One which being One cannot be both within and without If she be with Nouatianus she was not with Cornelius But if she were with cornelius who succeeded Fabianus by lawfull ordination Nouatianus is not in the Church I purposely heere speak only of externall CoÌ„munion with the Catholique Church For in this point there is great difference between internall acts of our Vnderstanding and will and of externall deeds Our Vnderstanding and Will are faculties as Philosophers speake abstractiue and able to distinguish and as it were to part things though in themselues they be really conioyned But reall externall deeds do take things in grosse as they find them not separating things which in reality are ioyned together Thus one may consider and loue a sinner as he is a man frieÌ„d benefactor or the like and at the same time not consider him nor loue him as he is a sinner because these are acts of our Vnderstanding and Will which may respect their obiects vnder some one formality or consideration without reference to other things contained in the selfe same obiects But if one should strike or kill a sinnefull man he will not be excused by alledging that he killed him not as a man but as a sinner because the selfe same person being a man and the sinner the externall act of murder fell iointly vpon the man the sinner And
You say that it is comfort inough for the Church that the Lord in merey will secure her from all capitall dangers but she may not hope to triumph ouer all sinne and errour till she be in heauen Now if it be comfort inough to be secured from all capital daÌ„gers which can arise only from errour in fundamentall points why were not your first Reformers content with Inough but would needs dismeÌ„ber the Church out of a pernicious greedines of more then Inough For this Inough which according to you is attained by not erring in points not fundameÌ„tal was enioyed before Luthers reformation vnlesse you will now against your selfe affirme that loÌ„g before Luther there was no Church free from errour in fundamental points Moreouer if as you say no Church may hope to triumph ouer all errour till she be in heauâ—n You must eyther grant that errours not fundamentall cannot yield sufficieÌ„t cause to forsake the Church or els you must affirme that all Communities may ought to be forsaken so there wil be no end of Schismes or rather indeed there can be no such thinge as Schisme because according to you all Communities are subiect to errours not fundamentall for which if they may be lawfully forsaken it followeth cleerely that it is not Schisme to forsake them Lastly since it is not lawfull to leaue the Communion of the Church for abuses in life and manners because such miseries cannot be auoided in this world of temptation and since according to your Assertion no Church may hope to triumph oner all sinne and errour You must grant that as she ought not to be left by reason of sinne so neyther by reason of errours not fundamental because both sinne errour are according to you impossible to be auoided til she be in heaueÌ„ 23. Furthermore I aske whether it be the Quantity or Number or Quality and Greatnes of doctrinall errours that may yield sufficient cause to relinquish the Churches Communion I proue that neyther Not the Quality which is supposed to be beneath the degree of points fundamentall or necessary to saluation Not the Quantity or Number For the foundation is strong inough to support all such vnnecessary additions as you terme them And if they once weighed so heauy as to ouerthrow the foundation they should grow to fundamentall errors into which your selfe teach the Church cannot fall Hay and stubble say you and such (g) pag. 153. vnprofitable stuff laid on the roofe destroies not the howse whilest the maine pillars are standing on the foundation And tell vs I pray you the precise number of errors which cannot be tolerated I know you cannot do it and therfore being vncertaine whether or no you haue cause to leaue the Church you are certainely obliged not to forsake her Our blessed Sauiour hath declared his will that we forgiue a priuate offender seauenty seauen times that is without limitation of quantity of time or quality of trespasses and why then dare you alledge his commaund that you must not pardon his Church for errors acknowledged to be not fundamentall What excuse can you faigne to your selues who for points not necessary to saluation haue been occasions causes and authors of so many mischiefes as could not but vnaucydably accompany so huge a breach in kingdomes in Common wealths in priuate persons in publique Magistrates in body in soule in goods in lise in Church in the state by Schismes by rebellions by war by famine by plague by bloudshed by all sorts of imaginable calamities vpon the whole face of the Earth wherin as in a map of Desolation the heauines of your crime appeares vnder which the world doth pant 24. To say for your excuse that you left not the Church but her errors doth not extenuate but aggrauate your sinne For by this deuise you sow seeds of endles Schismes put into the mouth of all Separatists a ready answere how to auoide the note of Schisme from your Protestant Church of England or from any other Church whatsoeuer They will I say answere as you do prompt that your Church may be forsaken if she fall into errors though they be not fundamentall And further that no Church must hope to be free from such errors which two grounds being once laid it will not be hard to infer the consequence that she may be forsaken 25. From some other words of D. Potter I like wise proue that for Errors not fundamentall the Church ought not to be forsaken There neither was sayth he nor can be (h) Pag. 5. any iust cause to depart from the Church of Christ no more then from Christ himselfe To depart from a particular Church namely from the Church of Rome in some doctrines and practises there might be iust and necessary cause though the Church of Rome wanted nothing necessary to saluation Marke his doctrine that there can be no iust cause to depart from the Church of Christ and yet he teacheth that the Church of Christ may erre in points not fundamentall Therfore say I we cannot forsake the Roman Church for points not fundamental for then we might also forsake the Church of Christ which your selfe deny and I pray you consider whether you do not plainely contradict your selfe while in the words aboue recited you say there can be no iust cause to forsake the Catholique Church and yet that there may be necessary cause to depart from the Church of Rome since you grant that the Church of Christ may erre in points not fundamentall that the Roman Church hath erred only in such points as by and by we shall see more in particular And thus much be said to disproue their chiefest Answere that they left not the Church but her Corruptions 26. Another euasion D. Potter bringeth to auoid the imputation of Schisme and it is because they still acknowledge the Church of Rome to be a Member of the body of Christ and not cut off from the hope of saluation And this sayth he cleares vs from (i) pag. 76. the imputation of Schisme whose property it is to cut of from the Body of Christ and the hope of saluation the Church from which it separates 27. This is an Answere which perhaps you may get some one to approue if first you can put him out of his wits For what prodigious doctrines are these Those Protestants who belieue that the Church erred in points necessary to saluation and for that cause left her cannot be excused from damnable Schisme But others who belieued that she had no damnable errors did very well yea were obliged to forsake her and which is more miraculous or rather monstrous they did well to forsake her formally and precisely because they iudged that she retained all meanes necessary to saluation I say because they so iudged For the very reason for which he acquitteth himselfe and condemneth those others as Schismatiques is because he holdeth that the Church which both of them forsooke is
for example the Century Writers doe (g) Cent. 3. cap. 6. col 127. acknowledge that in the tymes of Cyprian and Tertulian Priuate Confession euen of Thoghts was vsed and that it was then commanded and thought necessary The like I say concerning your Ordination which at least is very doubfull consequently all that depends thereon 6. On the other side that the Roman Church is the safer way to Heauen not to repeat what hath been already sayd vpon diuers occasions I will againe put you in mynd that vnles the Roman Church was the true Church there was no visible true Church vpon Earth A thing so manifest that Protestants themselues confesse that more then one thousand yeares the Roman Church possessed the whole world as we haue shewed heertofore out of their own (h) Chap. 5. num 9. words from whence it followes that vnlesse Ours be the true Church you cannot pretend to any perpetuall visible Church of your Owne but Ours doth not depend on yours before which it was And heere I wish you to consider with feare and trembling how all Roman Catholiques not one excepted that is those very men whom you must hold not to erre damnably in their beliefe vnlesse you wil destroy your owne Church and saluation do with vnanimous consent belieue and professe that Protestancy vnrepented destroies Saluation and then tell me as you will answere at the last day whether it be not more safe to liue die in that Church which euen your selues are forced to acknowledge not to be cut off from hope of saluatioÌ„ which are your owne words then to liue in a Church which the sayd confessedly true Church doth firmely belieue and constantly professe not to be capable of saluation And therfore I conclude that by the most strict obligation of Charity towards your owne soule you are bound to place it in safety by returning to that Church from which your Progenitors Schismatically departed least too late you find that saying of the holy Ghost verified in your selues He that loues (i) Eccles â— 27. the danger shall perish therin 7. Against this last argument of the greater security of the Roman Church drawne from your owne confession you bring an Obiection which in the end will be found to make for vs against your selfe It is taken from the words of the Donatists speaking to Catholiques in this manner Your selues confesse (k) pag. 112. our Baptisme Sacraments and Fayth heer you put an Explication of your owne and fay for the most part as if any small error in fayth did not destroy all Faith to be good and auayleable We deny yours to be so and say there is no Church no saluation amongst you Therfore it is safest for all to ioyne with vs. 8. By your leaue our Argument is not as you say for simple people alone but for all them who haue care to saue their soules Neither is it grounded vpon your Charitable Iudgment as you (l) Pag. 81. speake but vpon an ineuitable necessity for you either to grant saluation to our Church or to entaile certaine damnation vpon your owne because yours can haue no being till Luther vnles ours be supposed to haue been the true Church of Christ And since you terme this Argument a Charme take heed you be none of those who according to the Prophet Dauid do not heare the voyce of him (m) Psal v. 6. who charmeth wisely But to come to the purpose Catholiques neuer granted that the Donatists had a true Church or might be saued And therfore you hauing cited out of S. Augustin the words of the Catholiques that the Donatists had true Baptisme when you come to the coÌ„trary words of the Donatists you add No Church No Saluation making the Argument to haue quinque terminos without which Addition you did see it made nothing against vs For as I said the Catholiques neuer yielded that among the Donatists there was a true Church or hope of saluation And your selfe a few leaues after acknowledge that the Donatists maintained an errour which was in the Matter and Nature of it properly hereticall against that Article of the Creed wherin we professe to belieue the holy (n) pag. 125. Catholique Church and consequently you cannot allow saluation to them as you do and must do to vs. And theÌ„rfore the Donatists could not make the like argument against Catholiques as Catholiques make against you who grant vs Saluation which we deny to you But at least you will say this Argument for the Certainty of their Baptisme was like to Ours touching the Security and Certainty of our saluation therfore that Catholiques should haue esteemed the Baptisme of the Donatists more Certaine then their owne and so haue allowed Rebaptization of such as were baptized by Heretiques or sinners as the Donatists esteemed all Catholiques to be I answere no. Because it being a matter of fayth that Baptisme administred by Heretiques obseruing due Matter Forme c. is valide to rebaptize any so baptized had beene both a sacriledge in reitering a Sacrament not reiterable and a profession also of a damnable Heresy and therfore had not been more safe but certainly damnable But you confesse that in the doctrine or practise of the Roman Church there is no beliefe or profession of any damnable errour which if there were euen your Church should certainly be no Church To belieue therfore and professe as we do cannot exclude Saluation as Rebaptization must haue done But if the Donatists could haue affirmed with truth that in the opinion both of Catholiques and themselues their Baptisme was good yea and good in such sort as that vnles theirs was good that of the Catholiques could not be such but theâ—â—s might be good though that of the Catholiques were not and further that it was no damnable error to belieue that Baptisme administred by the Catholiques was not good nor that it was any Sacriledge to reiterate the same Baptisme of Catholiques If I say they could haue truly affirmed these things they had said somewhat which at least had seemed to the purpose But these things they could not say with any colour of truth and therfore their argument was fond and impious But we with truth say to Protestants You cannot but confesse that our doctrine containes no damnable error and that our Church is so certainely a true Church that vnlesse ours be true you cannot pretend any Yea you grant that you should be guilty of Schisme if you did cut off our Church from the Body of Christ and the hope of saluation But we neither do nor can grant that yours is a true Church or that within it there is hope of saluation Therfore it is safest for you to ioyne with vs. And now against whom hath your Obiection greatest force 9. But I wonder not a little and so I thinke will euery body else what the reason may be that you do not so much as goe about to answere the
deceased cannot stand with your meere Commemoration of Thankesgiuing or your Request for a perfect Consummation both which according to your doctrine concerne Martyrs no lesse then others The same difference is expressed by S. Cyprian saying It is one thing to be purged (f) Lib. 4. ep 2. alias epist. 52. after long torment for ones sinnes and to be long cleansed with the fire and another thing to haue wiped away all the sinnes by suffering S. Hierome sayth If Origen affirme that (g) Lib. 1. cont Pelagianos all Creatures endued with reason are not to be lost and granteth repentance to the Diuell what belongs that to vs who affirme that the Diuell and all his Officers and all sinneful and wicked men do eternally perish and that Christians if they be taken away in sinne are to be saued after punishments More Fathers may be seen in Bellarmine and other Catholique Writers These may suffice to shew what was that Beliefe Practise of the Church which Aërius opposed in his time as you do at this day 15. Lastly your owne Brethren beare witnes thus against you Caluin sayth More then a thousand three hundred (h) Instit. l. 3. c. 5. Sect. â—â— yeares ago it was a Custome to pray for the dead But I confesse they were all driuen into Error Bucer his words are Because (i) In his enarrat in sacra quatuor Euang. printed Basil 1536. in Matt. â— 12. almost from the beginning of the Church Prayers and Almes-deeds were offered for the dead that opinion which S. Augustine sets downe in his Enchiridio cap. 110. crept in by little little Neither ought we to deny that soules are released by the piety of their liuing friends when the Sacrifice of our Mediatour is offered for them c. Therfore I doubt not but that from hence arose that duty of Praying and offering Sacrifice for them Fulke speaketh plainely Aërius taught that Prayer for the dead (k) In his answer to a counterfeyt Cath. pag. 44. was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustine which they count for an Errour He likewise acknowledgeth that Ambrose Chrysostome Augustine allowed Prayer for the dead That Tertullian Augustine Cyprian Hierome and a great many more do witnes that Prayer for the dead is the Tradition of the Apostles And that Fulke vnderstands these Fathers in the sense of satisfying for Temporall paines after this life I hope you will not deny For it is cleere by what we said out of him aboue Nay euen in the Communion Booke allowed and established by Act of Parlament in the second yeare of Edward the Sixth and printed in LoÌ„don by Edward Whitchurch Anno â—549 there is Prayer for the dead and in the yeare 1547. the first yeare of Edward the Sixth his raigne Stow recounts that on the 19. of Iune a Dirige was sung in euery parish Church in London for the French King late deceased and a Dirige was also sung in the Church of S. Paul in the same Citty on the next morrow the Archbishop of Canterbury assisted of eight Bishops all in rich miters other their Pontificalls did sing a Masse of Requiem And to say this by the way there is in the same Communion Booke offering vp of our Prayers by Angels as likewise in the first yeare of that Kings raigne Communion in One Kind in time of Necessity is approued as also in the Collection in English of Statutes c. the reason heerof is added because at that time the opinion of the Reall presence as the Collector sayth was not remoued from vs. Which ingenuous confession supposes that Communion in one kind cannot be disallowed if we belieue the reall presence because indeed the Body and Bloud of our Sauiour Christ is both vnder the species of bread and vnder the species of wine 16. You say the Ancient Church (n) Pag. 37. in her Liturgies remembred all those that slept in hope of the Resurrection of euer lasting lyfe and particularly the Patriarchs Prophets Apostles c. beseeching God to giue vnto them rest and to bring them at the Resurrection as you add to the place where the light of his countenance should shine vpon them for euermore 17. But reade (o) De Purg. lib. 1. cap. 9. Bellarmine and you shall find a farre different thing in the Greeke Liturgy of which S. Epiphanius makes mention whome you also cite in your Margent We offer Sacrifice to thee O Lord for all the Patriarchs Apostles Martyrs and especially for the most Blessed Mother of God And that the Sacrifice was offered for those Saints onely in Thankes-giuing the words following doe shew By whose Prayers O God looke vpon vs. But for other faythfull deceased the speach is altered thus And be mindfull of all the faythfull deceased who haue slept in hope of the Resurrection and grant them to rest where the light of thy Countenance is seene Which last words you vntruly applied to Patriarches c. and added at the Resurrection wheras they are referred only to other faithfull people for whom Sacrifice is offered that they may come to see the light of Gods Countenance euen before the Resurrection that is as soone as they haue satisfied for their sinnes And now how many wayes is the Greeke Liturgy repugnant to you It speakes of Sacrifice which you turne to Remembrance It speakes of some persons whom we intreate to pray for vs others for whom we pray It teacheth Prayers to Saints It teacheth that Saints do already enioy the Beatificall Vision and therfore that Sacrifice only of Thankes-giuing is offered for them And as for the latter Schismaticall and Hereticall Crecians although their Authority weigh not much yet euen they professed in the Councell of Florence that they belieued a Purgatory only denied that the soules were there tormented by fire teaching neuertheles that it was a darke place and full of paine and your owne (q) Vid Apol Prot. tract 1. Sect. 7. subd 12. at 11. Brethren Sparke Osiander and Crispinus affirme that about Prayer for the dead they conformed themselues to Rome And Sr. Edwin (r) In his relation c. Sands saith that the Greeke Church doth concur with Rome in the opinion of Transubstantiation in Praying to Saints in offering Sacrifices and Prayer for the dead Purgatory c. And a Treatise published by the Protestant Diuines of Wittemberge Anno 1584. intituled Acta Theologorum Wittembergensium c. affirmeth that the Greeke Church at this day belieues Inuocation of Saints and Prayer for the dead as heertofore I noted All which considered with what Modesty can you say The generall opinion of (t) Pag. 36. the Ancient Doctors Greeke and Latin downe almost to these last Ages was and is the opinion of the Greeke Church at this day that all the spirits of the Righteous deceased are in Abrahams bosome or in some outward Court of heauen c. And to mend the matter you