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A17036 An ansvvere to Master Cartvvright his letter for ioyning with the English Churches: whereunto the true copie of his sayde letter is annexed. Browne, Robert, ca. 1550-1633.; Cartwright, Thomas, 1535-1603.; Harrison, Robert, d. 1585?, attributed name. 1585 (1585) STC 3909; ESTC S109433 77,571 102

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And for this purpose there are appointed these other partes of discipline namely that the Church doe iudge those which are within for it hath nothing to doe saith Paul to iudge those that are without The discipline of the church poceedeth against the brethrē that offend as was shewed before not agaynst scorners or careles worldlings For the lord doth now take vs of the gentiles for priests leuites as it is written and as wee may not bring into the lords sanctuary strangers vncircamcised in heart to pollute his house that is wicked wretches which haue not the lords couen̄at may not be receiued into fellowship of the church so those that are within being fallen to transgression they shal iudge according to my iudgements saith the Lord and they shall keepe my lawes and my statutes in all my assemblies For there is a particular iudging dealing against any in the church as by particular rebuke pronouncing accu●sed him that grossely offendeth there is a general iudging of any without the church For it is written that we shal iudge the angels And euery nation that shall rise vp in iudgement against the church shal it condemne this iudging is no part of the particular iudging we speak of And here come in other parts of discipline to be spoken of namely for priuate rebuke of the brethren that priuately offend for open rebuke of open sinnes for casting off forsaking felowship brotherhood with grosse open offenders These partes of discipline although they are prooued made manifest before yet because M C. saith that some part of discipline may bee wanting let vs see which of them may be wanting and the church notwithstanding haue the essence and name of the church First Christ hath gieun power to euery christian to reteyne the sinnes of euery brother whom he knoweth to trespasse against him not to forgiue hym except he see him repē So that if any person want this power he is not to be counted a christian And this power reacheth so far not only for open but euen for priuate offences to iudge take any man for a heathen a publican if he wil not be reformed Now this liberty power euery christian must hold or els he is the seruāt of mē not of christ If then a particular christian cannot want it how shal the whole church be without it yet be named the church of christ Euery particular christiā is a king a priest vnto god a king because he holdeth the scepter of gods word to iudge the offēders a priest because in euery place he offreth incense and a pure offring to the name of the Lord as it is Malachy So thē he is vtterly without the kingdō priesthod of christ if that liberty be denied him I mean of iudging rebuking the particular offenders forsaking their fellowship if they wil not be reformed Howe much more shall the Church be without this kingdō priesthod of christ so without christ hymself if it want this libertie power Likewise as we shewed before euery christian hath power seuerally to forsake wicked fellowship not to cōpany together with wicked brethrē And as by this liberty power they vphold their kingdō in Christ so without it both they and the whole church do lose their interest in the priesthood kingdom of Christ and so are none of his church For they haue not the keyes of the kingdom of heauē to bind lose to reteine or remit mens sinnes and therefore what right can they haue in the kingdom of christ If they cannot openly particularly rebuke how shall they openly particularly binde and if they cānot openly particularly cast out or excōmunicate the grosser offender how shal they bind For being still reteined as brethrē in the church how shall they pronounce them to be boūd in heauē How shall they shut the gates of heauen against those whom still they keepe in the bosome of the church If M. C. say that a general rebuke iudging of the wicked is a binding let him knowe that the Church hath more liberty right particularly to iudge those which are within then generally to iudge those that are without And safely if it haue not power to iudge those which are within it hath no power of iudging at all So that it is manifest that no part of church discipline can be wanting but the church doth straightway go to mine thereby For a cōfused gathering of al together was proued to be no church of God Likewise if the couenant of the church the sacraments thereof be broken and disanulled Master C. graunteth that there is no church and nowe it is shewed that without that power of rebuking and iudging those which are within and of excomunicating those that deserue it there can be no church of God As for that his fonde answere that for some default in preaching and some default in obedience the discipline of the church may fayle and yet be the church let him knowe that though some preacher or other person offende yet doeth not therefore the discipline of the church fayle or want except the church be negligent or wilfully refuse to redresse such offences or is brought into bondage that it can not redresse them And yet also the question is not of some weakenes and failing in discipline but a full want and ouerthrowe either of the whole or of some parte thereof Wherefore that proofe they alleadgeby the Corinthians that they wanted discipline yet were the church of God is false very vaine For they wanted it not but were negligent therein They were not vnder the bondage of a popish discipline power which denyed and withhelde the Lordes discipline Nowe negligence was a fault in them yet not an vtter ouerthrowe and failing of discipline For being rebuked of Paul they mended this negligence in so much that their repentance and sorowe for their negligence wrought a great care in them yea as the text saith a clearing of themlselues an indignation a feare a great desire a zeale a punishing of themselues Likewise for their abuses in the Sacrament of the Supper Paul condemneth euen the Supper and sayeth This is not to eate the Lordes Supper And for abusing that Sacrament many of them were plagued of God and dyed So that although for a tyme they turned the Sacrament to be a iudgement against thē the discipline of the church did fayle yet was it not therefore quite ouerthrowē debarred from thē Also whereas some beleeued not the resurrection frō the dead it was the ignorance of those which had newely imbraced the Christian profession and not the ouerthrowe of the church discipline And here is that answered which M. C. alledgeth that Paul calleth the churches of God by the title of
and being in daunger without he runneth in for by faith which is inwarde and the spirite that is inwarde hee woulde iustifie an outwarde churche Againe by an outwarde false and corrupt profession he will iustifie the inwarde spirite and faith of professours to bee syncere Thus with turning and returning to and fro he woulde establishe his errour but hee doeth wearie him selfe in vaine Nowe as his dealing herein is ridiculous so hee increaseth it vnto a shamelesse and blasphemous doctrine For he sayeth that there being but one onely true Christian in a church or congregation and all the rest wicked yea and so wicked that they haue but a bare profession in worde onely without any good workes they shoulde all be counted the church of God for that one mans cause I maruaile howe his penne coulde droppe downe such poyson and he not smell the stinch thereof as he wrote it For by this doctrine euery faithfull christian shall bee aboue Christ. For Master Cartwright doeth giue them power to loose those on earth which God doeth binde in heauen and this power Christ neuer had For if the faith of one or a fewe beleeuers in an assembly be of force to make them all the Church though the rest be grosse offendours then neede they to bynde none in earth And why shoulde Saint Paule alleadge this power of our Lorde Iesus Christ if all may bee taken for the Church by the faith of some For Master Cartwright will giue vs a contrary power namely to reckon all for the churche But will you steale murther commit adulterie and sweare falsely c. sayeth the Lorde and come and stande before me in this house whereupon my Name is called and say We are deliuered though wee haue done all these abominations If Master Cartwright shoulde answere this question we shoulde heare those lying wordes for so the Prophet tearmeth them namely The Temple of the Lorde the Temple of the Lorde allis the Temple and Church of god But a denne of thieues is not the house and Temple of God And if the faith of fewe will make many wretches to be the church then the vnfaithfulnes of many shoulde be of force to make them all no Church But as my wickednesse condemneth no man but my selfe except they partake with me in my wickednes so my faith iustifieth no man to be of the church except they hold with me an outward good profe●sion according to faith For shew me thy faith by thy works saith S. Iam. 2 as who say he would not beleue there were faith if he saw not the works of faith And Paul ioyneth the beleefe of the heart and confession of the mouth both together as needeful vnto righteousnes saluation and by the confession of the mouth he meaneth al outward profession agreeing to faith because the professiō by mouth is chiefest He can not turne his words as if he spake of one truly faithful and all the rest secret hypocrites for he speaketh of the outward profession of the outward works and of the outward church granteth also that there are many outward grosse abuses further he nameth that in wordes only they hold the true faith as who say be the deeds neuer so abhominable yet for that faithful mans sake they are al to be called one church with him If Master Cartwright had sayde cleane contrary he had spoken more truely namely that if among many good liuers one wicked man were founde as a m●rtherer an idolater or an adulterer and the rest become so negligent or wilfull or are helde in such spirituall bondage that any one such open and manifest offence is incurable then the couenant is broken and disanulled with them all till they repent and redresse such wickednesse Proofe there is by the 7. of Ioshua the 13. of Deuteronomie the 9. of Ezra the 20. of Iudges the 3. of Ieremie and 1. verse By the punishment of the whole land for Sauls offence 2. Samuel 21. By the ceremonies of leprosies Of touching vncleane things By the leauen named of Paul that leaueneth the whole lūpe 1. Cor. 5. by sundry other places Wherefore this doctrine of his as it maketh for the Pope that a whole wretched multitude may be the Church and depende on one man cleane ouerthroweth the discipline of the church so it is so contrary to God and all godlinesse that I wonder anye man shoulde haue the face to auouche it If M. C. say that hee meaneth not a profession altogether corrupted but a good profession in other dueties though that bee nought which iustifieth such abuses in assemblies I maruaile howe he dare pronounce it an apparant sanctification or an holy profession in other dueties where there is so corrupt and polluted a profession in publique assemblyes Doth not the Prophet teach vs That that man can haue no name of a righteous iust and holy man which offendeth in any one grose sinne If he sinne in any one of these thinges saith the Prophet though he doe ●ot all these thinges he is a wicked man all the righteousnesse which he hath done shall not be mentioned but his wickednesse shall be vpon him And if it be true that Iames saith cap. ● 26. that not to refraine a mans tongue is to proue his religion vaine then to haue a filthie polluted profession in publique assemblies is to make all other profession filthy and polluted And so reasoneth the Prophet Haggi That as any holy meate was made vnholy and vncleane if a polluted person did but touch it or the skirt of a mans garment did but touch it so much more vncleane was that people and nation and all their holy exercises and sacrifices and all the workes of their handes becuase they polluted them selues but in one thing namely in slacking and fearing to builde the outwarde Temple which was but a figure of the outwarde Church of god at this day But we come to another of Master Cartwrights proofes which hee giueth thus They haue the couenaunts of the churches of god namely the spirit and the worde of god put in their mouthes therefore they are the Churches of god We doe not denie but that there are sundry churches of god but the question is of a corrupt profession by Popish Lawes and of vnlawfull assemblyes made thereby But whatsoeuer corruption there is as he granteth diuers yet they haue the couenant saith he of the spirite and the worde of god in their mouthes So without shame he abuseth that place in Isaiah 59 For he leaueth out one part of the couenant which is That the Lorde will come vnto Zion and to those that turne from iniquitie in Iacob and with them will hee make his couenant wherefore the worde is not the couenant to establish a Church except it reigne and rule in the Church to subdue it in obedience to the Lorde for the Lorde maketh no couenant but with
the outward Church when there is a wicked profession contrary to the doctrine of faith Againe a man may beleeue be wonne to faith by meanes of some godly brother and that before he haue outwardly ioyned him selfe to the Church so in gods secret election he is of the church yet because he hath not the outwarde profession can not be sayde to be the outwarde Church But here Master Cartwright though he dare not iustifie the blind reading Ministers yet he doeth praise them as doing some good But of this matter also it followeth afterwarde to intreate as whether he that doeth so much hurt and mischiefe can be saide to doe any good at all Likewise it is a trifling to no purpose that he sayth the Church ceaseth not when a minister faileth or wanteth for we knowe that euen two or three agreeing together in the trueth separate from wickednesse if none other will ioyne with them euen they are an outwarde and visible Church and haue this power of Christ euen to binde men on earth and to loose them on earth that they may be bound or loosed in heauen For though by persecution they be driuen into corners yet their good profession is outward and visible in it selfe and yet hidden from their enemies which are vnworthy to see it for the church may increase into thousandes and decrease also in this worlde euen to a litle householde and to foure or fiue persons For Ierusalem fell away and became as Sodome and Egypt and the Lorde did blot out the whole name and church of the Iewes and called his people by another name as it is written Isay 65. Actes 11. But in these latter dayes it is prophecied that the Church shoulde be small hidden and driuen into corners So that as in Noas time eight persons onely escaped euen so when the sonne of man shall come he shall not finde faith on the earth those dayes before his comming shall be so hard that scarce any flesh shall be saued Indeed one person will not make a church for the Church must needes be a number but where two or three are gathered together in the name of Christ there is he in the middes of them And the housholde of Philemon is named a Church Likewise the housholde of Olymphis of Aquila Priscilla and others For if they haue the power which Paul calleth the power of our Lorde Iesus Christ and doe meete together fewe or moe in the Name of Christ they are surely the Church of Christ. Therefore this doctryne is still agaynst Master Cartwright for neyther the word in the preachers mouth nor the Sacraments can make an outwarde Church except they haue the power of Christ to separate the vnworthye For Master C. confesseth that the name of a Church shall remayne though the preacher and his preaching doe cease and is wanting for a tyme. But without this power of binding that is of declaring mens wickednes and forsaking their fellowshippe to leaue them vnto Satan being open and grieuous offendours there is no name nor shewe of the church of Christ remaining If he demaunde proofe hereof the scriptures are manifest For God hath giuen this power not onely to the preachers but to all the saintes of god as appeareth by that Psalme namely By the worde of god in their mouthes to binde euen the Kings and nobles of the earth and to execute vpon them his spirituall iudgement the text followeth that this honour shall be to all the Saintes Wherefore it is not peculiar to some one or to ●ome fewe alone but it belongeth to all yea this is the heritage of all the Lordes seruants as Isaiah testifieth In deede it is true that we ought ioyntly to execute this power but if others will not or bee in bondage that they can not ioyne with vs therein then they are not the Church but the bondslaues of men For this power belongeth to euery one seuerally to forsake wicked fellowship and there is a cōmandement giuen to euery one to forsake the vnfruitfull workes of darkenesse to be no companions with such to haue no fellowshippe with them to withdraw our selues from euery brother that walketh inordinately yea and to turne away from all which hauing a shew of godlinesse doe deny the power thereof For if we walke in darknes and say we haue fellowship with god we lye sayth S. Iohn and doe not truely But if we walke in the light we haue fellowship one with another otherwise that fellowship holdeth not And in Hosea commandement is giuen vnto all euen to pleade against the mother church if it fal away that as god doth forsake it so euery one also should stand against it if it become abhominable And so also all are commanded to saue them selues from a froward generation But it may be here obiected howe we answere to the place in Matth. 18 that we must complaine to the Church and then if the offender heare not the Church we must take him for a heathen and publican I grant that if the offence be priuate he must be first priuately dealt with But this proueth not that either for priuate or open offences we must waite on them for redresse which are enemies of the Church and which haue no power to binde and lose as hath the church Wherefore let not Master Cartwright accompt so much of the assemblyes he speaketh of for what is a Church without this power we spake of yea what are those assemblies which in steade of it do holde that Antichristian power of the spirituall courtes or rather are helde in bondage by it But Master Cartwright alloweth not onely those assemblies but also those vile courtes and officers and Bishoppes set ouer them to be all the Church of God For he sayeth afterwarde namely in the sixt page that the calling of the dumbe ministers whichis by them is a calling of the church and sufficient to make them ministers yea and he seemeth to allowe also their suspendings of preachers as if it were done by the Church so that both for complaint and for redresse of defaults for establishing and gathering the churches hee alloweth or tollerateth those officers and courtes to haue the power and authoritie of the church But God hath appointed no such kinde of complaintes in the Church neither such kinde of redresse nor ordering of matters First because they redresse and order matters by money Brybes Fees Ciuill penaltyes c. wherein the Church discipline ought not to meddle For the weapons of our warefare sayeth Paul are not carnall He meaneth that the Church maye not deale in matters of reformation as doeth the common wealth and this present worlde The Church can deale no further then onely by rebuke warning and exhortation out of gods worde and by forsaking casting of fellowship in grosser sinnes And therefore rightly may the word and his