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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A28837	A conference with Mr. Claude, minister of Charenton, concerning the authority of the church by James Benigne Bossuet, Bishop of Meaux ... ; faithfully done into English out of the French original.; Conference avec M. Claude, ministre de Charenton, sur la matière de l'eglise. English	Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.; Claude, Jean, 1619-1687.	1687 (1687)	Wing B3780; ESTC R23256	107,935	138

and Cross This Church is Holy because she always constantly and without varying teaches the holy Doctrin which continually brings forth Saints in her Unity This Church has neither Spot nor Wrinkle because she has neither any Error nor any evil Maxim and moreover because she instructs and contains in her Bosom the Elect of GOD who thô Sinners on Earth find in her Communion exterior Means to purify themselves so that they shall one day come in a most perfect Estate before JESUS CHRIST This perhaps is the only Place in which it may with some shew of Probability be said That the word Church taken simply signifies something else than the exterior Society of GODs People and yet you see how clear it is that it ought to be understood as all the others But should this Passage and two or three more have a Signification either Doubtful or even different from this yet are all the other conformable to it For what is there more frequent than such Expressions as these That the Church must be edify'd that the Church has been persecuted that GOD is praised in the midst of the Church that she is saluted that she is visited that there are Pastors and Bishops establisht to govern her and other like the number of which is infinite It cannot then be deny'd that this is the ordinary Signification of the word Church and consequently that which is to be follow'd in so plain a Confession of Faith as is the Apostles Creed In this Sense was it taken by a whole great Council Conc. Ni● post Symb. the first and holiest of all the Universal Councils when condemning Arius it pronounc'd in this manner The holy Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes all those who say That the Son of GOD was drawn out of nothing 'T is JESUS CHRIST himself who taught us to believe the Church in this Sense For to found this Church he came forth from the invisible Bosom of his Father and rendred himself visible to Men he assembled about him a Society of Men that acknowledg'd him for their Master This is what he call'd his Church To this Primitive Church the Faithful who afterwards believ'd congregated themselves and thence sprung the Church which the Creed terms Catholic or Universal JESUS CHRIST us'd the word Church to signify this visible Society when he said himself that we must hear the Church Mat. xviii v. 17. Tell it unto the Church And again when he said Thou art Peter Mat. xvi v. 18. and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it Why said I Madam why will not they of your Religion understand here by the word Church the Society of those that make Profession to believe in JESUS CHRIST and the Gospel since it is certain that this Society is in effect the true Church against which Hell could never prevail neither when it made use of Tyrants to persecute her nor when it set false Doctors on work to corrupt her Hell shall not prevail against the Predestinate 't is certain For if it cannot prevail against this exterior Society with much greater Reason shall it not prevail against the Elect of GOD who are the purest and most spiritual part of this Church But by the same Reason that it cannot prevail against the Elect it cannot prevail against the Church which teaches them in which they confess the Gospel and receive the Sacraments 'T is this exterior Society in which the Elect serve GOD that we ought to understand by the word Church and at the same time admire the invincible Force of JESUS CHRIST's Promises who has so supported the Society of his People thô weak in comparison of the Infidels which environ'd it without thô torn by Heretics who divided it within that there has not been so much as one sole Moment in which this Church has not been seen by the whole Earth But the Pretended Reformed have not dar'd to retain this natural Sense of the Gospel For that they might establish themselves they have been forc'd to say in their Confession of Faith Article XXXI That the State of the Church was interrupted and that they were fain to raise it up again anew because it was in Ruine and Desolation In effect when their Church was set up it entred not into Communion with any other Church then extant on the Earth but was form'd by breaking with all the Christian Churches which were in the World They have not then the Consolation which the Catholics have to see JESUS CHRIST's Promise visibly accomplisht and maintain'd during so many Ages They cannot shew a Church which has ever been since JESUS CHRIST came to build it on the Rock and to save his Word they are oblig'd to have recourse to a Church of the Predestinate which neither themselves nor any else can shew But JESUS CHRIST would shew something illustrious and clear when he said that his Church maugre the Opposition of Hell should be always invincible he would I say shew something clear and resplendent which might serve in all Ages for a sensible and palpable Assurance of the immutable Certainty of his Promises And in effect let us consider when he spake this Word Thou art Peter Mat. xvi v. 18. and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it 'T was when having askt his Apostles Whom say ye that I am Peter in the Name of them all answer'd him Thou art CHRIST the Son of the living GOD. Upon this illustrious Confession of Faith which Flesh and Blood had not dictated but the Heavenly Father had reveal'd to Peter upon this illustrious Confession of Faith I say is founded both St. Peters Dignity and the Churches immoveable Firmness This Church which confesses JESUS CHRIST to be the true Son of GOD is that against which Hell shall never prevail and which shall subsist without Interruption maugre all the Efforts and Artifices of the Devil It appears then clearly that the Church of which JESUS CHRIST speaks in this place is a confessing Church a Church that publishes the Faith and consequently an exterior and visible Church See also what he adds And I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Ibid. v. 19. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven And whatsoever thou shalt loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven Whatever is to be understood by these Words whether Preaching Ecclesiastical Censures or the Ministery of Priests in the Sacrament of Penance as Catholics understand them 't is still certain That here is an exterior Ministery given to this Church 'T is then this Church which confesses the Faith and confesses it principally by the Mouth of St. Peter 'T is this Church that uses the Ministery of the Keys 'T is she that shall always be on the Earth without Hells ever being able to prevail against her And because JESUS

Preaching not some Truths or only the principal Truths but the entire Fulness of Christian Truths Whatever they say 't is not to believe blindly to believe thus or 't is to believe blindly like Abraham on the word of GOD himself and the Faith of his Promises How insupportable then is the Doctrin of Mr. Claude who after he has acknowledg'd so many magnificent Promises of JESUS CHRIST's in favour of this sacred Ministery plunging again all of a sudden into the Darkness of his Sect whence he was beginning to get out shews us the Ministery so abandon'd by JESUS CHRIST that there is no Remedy for its Errors but by deposing all at once all those which are in the Chair What agreement have these Promises so well acknowledg'd with so universal a Corruption Mr. Claude then needs only hearken a little to himself for to come unto us after having acknowledg'd in vertue of the divine Promises the Eternity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery in this Estate he represents to us to find there always all Truth he needs only consider that this imperfect Assistance and as one may say this half Succor of JESVS CHRIST to his Church is neither beseeming his Wisdom nor his Power being moreover assur'd that there is no true Sufficiency in the Ministery but by the full manifestation of the Truth reveal'd by GOD agreeably to this Word of the Apostle By manifestation of the Truth we commend our selves to every mans Conscience in the sight of GOD. 2 Cor. iv v. 2 3 4. Whence he concludes presently after that if our Gospel that is most certainly our Preaching be hid it is hid to them that are lost to the end he may make us understand that the Preaching always clear and always sincere in the Catholick Church has no obscurity but in Rebels in whom the Devil the God of this World and the Spirit of Pride hath blinded the minds as the same Apostle proceeds l●st the Light of the glorious Gospel should shine unto them 'T is now easy to see that all Mr. Claude's Subtilties serve only to confound him What avails it him that acknowledging the Churches Visibility he endeavour'd to elude the Consequences of this Doctrin by reducing the Church to the true Believers I am contented where-ever he finds Church let him understand the true Believers let him even explicate if he will these Words Mat. xviii v. 4. Tell it unto the Church Tell it to the true Believers single them out amongst the Troop and judge before the Lord or because as himself acknowledges here is too apparently meant the Church represented by her Pastors Mans Ans 4. q. let him say that these Pastors represent the true Believers which are not known and act in their Name What will these Explications after all advantage him since that in fine according to his own Doctrin this true Church shall always be 〈◊〉 visible and these true Believers always under a publick Ministery from which JESUS CHRIST so little permits his Church to be separated that even after these Words Tell it unto the Church but if he neglect to hear the Church let him he unto the● as an 〈◊〉 man to shew how redoubtable the Churches Judgment is he immediatly expresses the efficacy of the Ministery by these Words Matt. xviii v. 18. Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and the rest which every one knows Thus I conclude always equally that the Church which we must shew without interruption whether it be only the true Believers or if they will only the Elect or whether it be in a certain Sense the wicked mixt with them Matt. xiii v. 21. and those that believe for a while according to the expression of the Gospel is a Church always gather'd under a visible Ministery and a Body always subsisting of People with their Pastors where the Truth is preacht not in secret Matt. x. v. 27. but upon the house tops Let them turn as much as they will 't is a Church of this Nature and this Constitution we must at all times shew by Mr. Claude's Confession To make her disappear for one sole Moment is utterly to annihilate her and to overthrow the Promises of the Gospel in what they have most sensible and most apparent to make her appear always is invindibly to establish the Roman Church Thus what Mr. Claude explicates to us with so much care besides that it is false leaves the Difficulty entire and his Cause in as had a Condition as it was before his Defence But to the end they may not say we are contented with refuting him let us tell him the Truth in few words The Foundation of the Church is the true Believers and those principally who persevering to the end abide eternally in JESVS CHRIST and JESVS CHRIST in them that is to say the Elect. The Wicked which envinron them are after their manner comprehended under the Name of the Church as the Nails as the Hair as an Eye put out and a wither'd Arm which perhaps receives no more nourishment is comprehended under the Name of the Body All is for these true Believers The Ministery under which they live is theirs in the Sense 1 Cor. iii. v. 22. that St. Paul said All is yours whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas Not that the Power of their Pastors comes from them or that they alone can set them up and depose them GOD forbid This Pastoral and Apostolick Power comes from him Joh. xx v. 21. who said As my Father hath sent me I also send you This is what makes St. Paul say in the same place 1 Cor. iii. v. 4 5. Who is then Apollos and who is Paul The Ministers of him whom you have believ'd and to every one as our Lord hath given to you to be Believers and to us to be Pastors Wherefore he adds farther v. 9. We are GODs Laborers or to say better Co-operators These Ministers and these Workers establisht by GOD are also the Ministers of the Faithful and in this Sense are theirs because they are their Servants by JESVS CHRIST establisht in the Chair not for themselves for as to their own part it would suffice them to be simple Believers 2 Cor. iv v. 5. but for to edify the Saints He that desires to be in the Communion of these Saints need not torment himself to distinguish them from others for thô they are not known and perfectly discern'd but by GOD alone we are sure to find them under the publick Ministery and in the exterior Profession of the Catholick Church We need then only stay there for to be assur'd to find the Saints because this Profession and the ever fruitful Word of the Preachers which never fails to engender some keeps them always inseparably united to the holy Society where they receiv'd it Wherefore when JESVS CHRIST promises to teach always with his Church he comprehends all in this Word and rendring

not She did not entirely lose her Visibility or her Ministery GOD forbid See how he cries out against this Abomination to say that the Ministery can be lost in the Church There is never then any Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Ministers since to transmit the Ministery after the ordinary manner 't is not requisite for the Ministery to be pure 't is sufficient that it is And thô for the transmitting of it there should be requir'd as Mr. Claude speaks not only Ministers of good Doctrin but also of good Life and good Example 't is as sure that there will be always such in the Society of GOD's People as 't is that there will be always true Believers since that all the Ministery as well as the People must be there mixt of Good and Bad till the final Separation at the last Judgment Thus the extraordinary Vocation is on all sides excluded from JESVS CHRISTs Church and can be only a weak Refuge for a deplor'd Cause And to see what an Overthrow to JESVS CHRISTs Order Mr. Claude here introduces we need only consider the Promises of JESVS CHRIST and see in what it has pleas'd him principally to establish the Strength of his Church She is strong she is invincible because JESUS CHRIST has said Mat. xvi v. 18. that Hell should not prevail against her But he did not say that Hell should not prevail against her till after he had said Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church adding presently after I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven 'T is then in the Ministery confessing and declaring JESUS CHRIST and using the Authority of the Keys that JESUS CHRIST has principally establisht the Strength of his Church And to whom did he say I am with you even unto the end of the world Matt. xxviii v. 20. but to those to whom he said ●●ach and baptize All the Church is comprehended in this Promise who knows it not But JESUS CHRIST would shew the Truth of this Doctrin Ep. 69. ad Flor. Pap. so well explicated by St. Cyprian The Church forsakes not JESUS CHRIST and this is the Church the People united with their Bishop and the Flock joyn'd to their Pastor where 't is clear that we must understand as he says elsewhere Ep. 45. ad Corin. 4. Tr. de vnit Ecc. c. this Pastor united with all his Collegues and with the whole Unity of the Episcopacy so often establisht in his Writings 'T is then with reason that JESUS CHRIST would shew the Succession of his Church by that of the Ministery and 't is manifestly seen that 't is to those who teach he would say I am always with you And what is here more admirable is that these Promises are so evident that Mr. Claude against the Prepossessions of his Religion was forc't to acknowledg them such as I have now explicated them For we have heard him tell us that 't is in effect of a confessing Church of a Church which publishes the Faith of a Church which uses the Ministery that JESUS CHRIST has pronounc'd that Hell should not prevail against her V. sup xi Ref. p. 99. seq And because JESUS CHRIST after he had said Teach and baptize adds I am with you Mr. Claude concludes as we do that JESUS CHRIST in effect designs a Church that he affirms he will be with her baptize with her and teach with her even unto the end of the world 'T is then the Succession and Perpetuity of the Ministery which is principally comprehended in this Promise 't is principally in this that JESUS CHRIST establishes the Strength and eternal Duration of his Church In the mean time against all this Order we are shewn the Ministery so weak and so forsaken by JESUS CHRIST that it falls all together in one moment and on the contrary particular Believers so strong that they alone establish all the Ministery extraordinarily rais'd without having regard to the Succession or Authority of all the precedent Administration Who does not then see that all is overturn'd in the new Reformation and that to say with them that GOD would preserve true Believers in his Church to depose by their means all the Pastors and afterward set up others extraordinarily in their place whilst he would not preserve good Pastors to transmit the Ministery by the common ways establisht in his word and always observ'd in his Church is to say that he would set up a Church in a manner contrary to that he has reveal'd and has always caus'd to be follow'd by his Church Or rather 't is to say that he would have this Church form'd after a manner so new amongst Chri●●●ans bear in its Original without ever being able to efface it the manifest Character of its Falsity But let us come to these true Believers of whom Mr. Claude brags to us I am not contented to dispute with them the Power he has given them to depose all their Pastors and make others I say that these true Believers never were There must notwithstanding according to this Minister have been true Believers even in the Bosom of the Roman Church for since according to his Doctrin there must be acknowledg'd without any Interruption an Ecclesiastical Ministery and an exterior Profession of which might have been said There are the true Believers they were true Believers under that Ministery and in that Profession whence they went forth I ask did they communicate in the Sacrifice where Saints are invocated where their Relicks and Images are honour'd where the Pope is nam'd as the Head of the Orthodox where JESUS CHRIST is ador'd as present in Body and Soul where he is offer'd where the Holy Sacrament is receiv'd under one Kind Not to communicate in this Sacrifice and to refuse the receiving of the Eucharist there were manifestly to separate and they are suppos'd not to have done that yet but if they communicated there continuing true Believers in what an Error are now all our Reformed who believe not themselves to have been true Believers till since they left communicating there Thus these true Believers are People in the Air 1 Kin. xix v. 18. these seven thousand so much bragg'd of in the new Reformation and by Mr. Claude Man Ans 2 part are so far from appearing that they are not in nature since before the Separation there was not any one who communicated not in the Sacrifice and Host which our Reformed look on as Baal before whom one must not bow the Knee They say that these true Believers who by their actual separating compos'd the Reformation were before separated in heart from the publick Idolatry But first this is not sufficient secondly 't is not so This is not sufficient according to Mr. Claude since he will have a Church always visible since he has just now defin'd the Church to be the true Believers who make Profession of the Truth