that which was common to all the Apostles by the meaning of Christ you chalenge as proper vnto Peter onely For as the confession of Peter touching Christ shewed their common faith by the mouth of one so the answere of Christ directed vnto one conteined that blessing that should be common to them all And this is declared by the holy scripture which to the Ephesians mēbers of the church saith that they are built vpō the foundatiō of the Apostles Prophets Not of Peter onely but of the Apostles who lay the same foundation all that Peter did and thereupon are called all of them foundations And the church relying vpon their doctrine that is the Christian faith the onely and sure foundatiō of the church as the truth hath forced your owne mouthes to witnesse may bee iustly saide to be built on them euen as well on all of them as on Peter Wherfore by the proportion that you grate vpon of a foundation to a house and a head to a bodie as Christ is head onely so is he the onely foundation of the Church as the name of foundation is giuen to the Apostles so the twelue foundations doth proue them twelue heads You must séeke therefore some other foundation of Peters headship ouer them For neither the name of stone that Christ gaue him nor the wordes of building his church vpon that stone proue that he promised him to make him head of all the Apostles Hart. Not in your iudgement but in mine they doo And so dooth the other part of the promise also which Christ made vnto him To thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heuen For by the name of keyes is signified the fulnes of ecclesiasticall power But to giue the fulnes of ecclesiasticall power is to make him head Therefore Christ did promise to make him head of the church Rainoldes These keyes will not open more in the house then did the foundation lay in the building For if you meane by fulnes of ecclesiasticall power the lawfull power of the Apostleship then the which no greater was euer giuen to anie ministers of the church Christ gaue it both to Peter and to euerie Apostle If you meane such power as the Pope claimeth by fulnes of power a soueraine power not onely spirituall but also temporall Christ gaue it neither to Peter nor to anie Apostle So that in the former sense al were heads in the latter none and thus your headship proued by neither But what soeuer you meane by fulnes of power this is cleere and certaine that our Sauiour promised no more power to Peter then he meant and performed to all the Apostles And therefore what soeuer he promised to him he promised in him to them For as amongst them when they were all asked Whom say ye that I am Peter answered alone Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God so Christ said to him alone I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen as though he had alone receaued power to bind and loose whereas he made that answere one in stead of them all and receiued this power one togither with them all Wherefore sith no more was promised then giuen and equall power was giuen to all the Apostles this promise proueth not your headship You must bring vs foorth some better euidence or else your title will be naught Hart. The euidence is good For it saith in plaine and expresse termes that Christ would giue the keyes to Peter Then the which what could be more manifestly spoken Rainoldes In shew to the simple Chiefely when they sée the matter set forth as that is at Rome where Christ is painted out not as promising Peter that he would giue him keyes but as giuing them to him at that present and giuing them to him alone not to all the Apostles with the wordes of Christ paraphrased feately thereto by some poet Be thou the Prince of pastors to thee alone is giuen The power to shut the dore of heauen and eke to set it open Pastorum princeps esto tibi ius datur vni Claudere celestes reserare fores Hart. Nay the very words as they lie in scripture are plainer in shew for vs then for you which also may be noted in other pointes of controuersie betwéene you and vs. As about the reall presence this is my bodie For Christ did not say this is a signe of my bodie And againe the bread that I will giue is my flesh He said not it is but the signe of my flesh Rainoldes Neither do we say that Christ did so meane in this of flesh and bread For we teach that the true bread the bread of God which came downe from heauen and giueth life vnto the world is Christ euen the flesh the very flesh of Christ that is Christ incarnate The greater wrong they do vs who lay to our charge that we expound it not of the thing but of a signe themselues indéede guiltie thereof expounding it of a sacrament of Christ where it is meant of Christ him selfe the word that was made flesh But what if in the other place and sundry mo the wordes of the scripture bee plainer in shew for you then for vs It is not the shew but the sense of the wordes that doth import the truth and must decide controuersies For wordes were ordained to open the meaning and minde of him that speaketh them The meaning of the word of God is alwaies true because God who speaketh it is true and cannot lie The shew of it is false sometimes and deceitfull as men are whose iudgement this shew dependeth of and that may séeme to them to be meant by it which is not meant by God Wherfore it is not the shew but the sense the substance not the semblance of the wordes of scriptures that you must proue doth make for you in points of controuersie if you will proue ought Hart. Why do you graunt then that the wordes of scripture make more for vs in shew though not in substance then they doo for you It were not good for you that this should be knowne Rainoldes What Not that the wordes of scripture sometimes make more for you then vs in shewe though not in substance Yes truely M. Hart and for the Anabaptistes too that Christians had all things common And for Pope Clemens too that wiues must be common because in all things wiues are implyed also And I am so farre from being afraid that this should be knowne that euen in the very example which you mētion as making for you most I grant that the words of Christ this is my body are plainer in shew though not for your monster of transubstantiation yet for your reall presence then for our sacramentall But so that I graunt the same in like maner of other sacramentall and
and verie strongly proued Rainoldes This long and smooth tale which you haue tolde out of your Doctor is like to that nightingale to which a Lacedemonian when he had plucked her feathers off and sawe a litle caraine left said Thou art a voice nought else Plucke off the feathers of your tale the body is a poore carkase and hath no substance in it Howbeit the names of the two courtes the outward court the inward court with other tunes of like musike are very sweete melodie in the eares of them whose hartes are in the court of Rome As for simple men who haue béene onelye conuersant in the courtes of the Lord they sound to them like straunge languages and seeme to containe more profound mysteries then we can reach the depth off But to open your answere that it may be séene what is vnsound in it this is the point of the thing in controuersie I say that the power promised to Peter by the name of the keyes in the sixtéenth of Matthew was performed and giuen to all the Apostles by the commission of Christ in the twentieth of Iohn You with Stapleton deny it Why Because the keyes promised to Peter do signifie all kind of power wherof a part onely was giuen to the Apostles to bind and loose in either court And how proue you this Forsooth bicause by these wordes whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen Christ doth not expound what he meant by the keies as some men say you haue thoughtthat he doth Then some men haue thought that the power of the keyes and the power of binding and loosing are all one the later added by Christ to expound the former In deede I thought so and I perceaue by you that I thought not so alone some other men haue thought it too But you say it is not as some men haue thought Yet you do not tell vs the names of these some men Might we knowe I praye what these some men be Hart. What matter is it who they be sith wee are not of their minde Rainoldes Yes it is a matter For if I knew them it may be I would talke with them Hart. To confirme you in your errour But learned men do vary in expounding of Scriptures some hitte the marke some misse it And D. Stapleton reading many of all â—ortes might fall on some expounding it amisse as you do whom hée for modestie would not name where hee reprooueth their opinion Rainoldes This modestie I like not The truth is hee durst not name them least wee should know them and bee the more strengthned by them in the truth to the confounding of your errour For these some men whom hee so lightly trippeth ouer are but al the Fathers who haue with one consent expounded Christes promise of the keyes as we do Now the exposition which the Fathers make is by his owne iudgement the churches exposition which hath the right sense of the scripture And so while he is launching out into the deepe to fetch in a prise for Peter of Romes supremacie hee maketh shipwracke in the hauen Hart. How know you that the Fathers all haue so expounded it You haue not read them all haue you Rainoldes No truely Neither euer am likely to doo it But I haue read him that hath read them all I trow And hee being a man worthy with you of credit doth witnesse that I saye true Hart. Who is that Rainoldes Euen Father Robert the publike reader and professor of diuinitie in Rome Who when he discoursed of Christes wordes to Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen said that all power of the keyes is therein promised not restrained to part but enlarged to what soeuer Yea that Christ likewise promised the same power to all the Apostles when he spake in like wordes Whatsoeuer ye bind on earth shall be bound in heauen what soeuer ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen For albeit Origen more subtilly then literally doth put a difference betweene the promises because in the one the word heauen is vsed in the other heauens yet the common exposition of S. Ierom S. Hilarie S. Anselme and others vpon this place yea of S. Austin him selfe in his treatise vpon Iohn is that Christ speaketh of the power of the keyes by which the Apostles and their successours do bynd or loose sinners And although it seemeth that here is chiefely meant the power of iurisdiction whereby sinners are excommunicate yet the said Fathers doo vnderstand it of both the powers not onely of iurisdiction but of order too And that may be gathered it seemeth by the text For it is said as generally to the Apostles What things soeuer ye shal bind as it is to Peter What thing soeuer thou shalt bind Hart. Perhaps Father Robert doth bring in these thinges by way of an obiection and frameth thereunto an answere and so resolueth to the contrarie Rainoldes No. But he bringeth your opinion in deede by way of an obiection and frameth thereunto an answere and so resolueth to the contrary For thus he goeth forward What Is that giuen then to all the Apostles which was promised to Peter Caietan in his treatise of the Popes authority saith that the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the power of byndyng and loosing are not all one for that to bynd and loose is lesse then to open and shut But this doctrine seemeth to be more subtill then true For it is a thing vnheard of that there are in the Church any other keyes then the keyes of order and of iurisdiction And the sense of those wordes I will giue thee the keyes and whatsoeuer thou shalt bind and loose is plaine that first a certaine power and authoritie is promised afterward the function of it is declared Now the function of these keyes is declared by the wordes to bind and loose not by the wordes to shut and open that we may vnderstand they be metaphoricall and borowed kindes of speeches neither heauen is opened properly but it is said that heauen is opened then with these keyes when men are loosed and dispatched of the difficulties and infirmities which shut them out of heauen and so forth Thus saith your chiefest reader and Iesuit Robert Bellarmin whose iudgement by your leaue I farre esteeme in this point aboue D. Stapletons as more agreeable to the scriptures Hart. You may estéeme it as you liâ—t But I am not bound to stand to Bellarmines iudgement Rainoldes But you are bound to stand to the iudgement of the Fathers by the Councell of Trent and that vpon your othe as I take it With the which othe I know not how D. Stapleton dispenseth Unlesse the Pope expound it that you must folow them so farre as
Sophronius Agatho Damascene Euthymius and others doo name him Dionysius Areopagita when they cite thinges that are in him Rainoldes Gregorie Nazianzen doth prayse a certain autour whom he nameth not It is but one mans ghesse that he meaneth Denys An other saith which is more likely that he meaneth Athanasius Origen is auncient if he had cited Denys Denys must be elder a hundred yeares or two then I doo iudge him by his countenance But that worke of Origen in which you finde him cited can not bee Origens For in it the Manichees are mentioned and Arians the names of which heretiks did rise a good while after Origen was dead So that when this Origen is brought to cléere that Denys a théefe is brought to cléere a théefe The rest whom you alleage Sophronius Agatho Damascene and Euthymius are of later yeares and such as might easily thinke him to be Denys who called him selfe so Many honest men did thinke Perkin Warbeck to be Richard Duke of Yorke King Edward the fourthes sonne as he professed him selfe to bee though in déed he was a counterfeite Hart If you may reiect an autour as counterfeit against so great consent of writers any ancient Father may be refused for a rascall Rainoldes If you may allow a counterfeit as lawfull because that many thinke well of him euerie Perkin Warbeck may be receyued for Duke of Yorke Hart. Nay there was sure proofe that he could not bee the Duke For the Duke was killed with the Prince his brother in the Tower ofLondon by Richard the vsurper ten yeares before men heard of Perkin Rainoldes There is surer proofe that he whose cause you pleade cannot be Dionysius Areopagita Hart. What Such as Erasmus and Valla bring that Ierom and others do not mention him Rainoldes That as light as you make it did moue Cardinall Caietan to dout of the man But the proofe that I meant is such as yours against Perkin to weete that Dionysius Areopagita was dead many yeares before the workes which beare his name could be writen For there is cited in them a saying of Ignatius out of an epistle which he wrote to the Romans as he was going to suffer martyrdome in the time of Traian the Emperour Now Dionysius died in the time of Domitian certaine yeares before And when Ignatius wrote it Onesimus was Bishop of Ephesus who succéeded Timothee Your counterfeit alleageth it to Timothee Bishop of Ephesus either after his decease or before it was writen Moreouer the Christians in Dionysius time made their assemblies to praier both in such places and with such simplicitie as the Apostles did and times of persecution suffered But when your counterfeit wrote they had solemne temples like the temple of the Iewes the Chancell seuered with such sanctification from the rest of the Church that it was not lawfull for moonks to enter thereinto much lesse for other lay-men Againe the moonkes also were risen when he wrote and they of credit in the Churches and many ceremonies to hallow them Which in the time of the Apostles when Dionysius liued were not heard of yet for any thing that can be proued by monuments of antiquitie Hart. What not moonkes Why Philo maketh mention of them as Eusebius sheweth And Philo did florish vnder Caius the Emperour euen in the prime of the Apostles Rainoldes That which Philo writeth he writeth not of Christian moonkes but Iewish Essees as him selfe sheweth Eusebius was deceiued And if you thinke that you haue mee at an aduantage in that I do denie Eusebius I shal haue you at the same vnlesse you will deny him of whom you make greater account euen Thomas of Aquine For he saith of the same time of which Philo wrote that there was not then any certaine sort of religious men But to leaue the proofes which touch other matters or stand on mens coniectures or you may haue some colour of exception against I will proue him a counterfeit by the same point for which you alleaged him and that by demonstration out of the holy scriptures and that by the confession of your Rhemists themselues You alleaged him as a witnesse of the assumption of the blessed virgin Him selfe saith that Timothee came with him togither and many of their holy brethren to behold her body The scriptures shew that Paule was not conuerted to Christ till after Christes ascension When he was conuerted he staied three yeares in Damascus and Arabia before he came to Ierusalem Thence he went into the coastes of Syria and Cilicia and the countries there about And foureteene yeares after he came againe to Ierusalem with Barnabas to the Councell From the Councell he went to Derbe and Lystrae where he receiued Timothee And hauing trauailed through Phrygia Galatia Mysia Macedonia he came at last to Athens where he conuerted Denys the Areopagite So that it was seuenteene or eighteene yeares at least after Christs ascension before S. Denys knew Christ. New the blessed virgin died the fifteenth yeare after Christes ascension as your Rhemists put who yet take the largest time ofher life for other stories make it shorter S. Denys therefore could not be one of the brethren who came togither to be present at her death and funerall And all this is graunted and proued by your Rhemists though they thought not ofit For in their table of S. Paule they shew that it was the one and fiftieth yeare of Christ when he conuerted S. Denys the Areopagite and in their tale of the virgin they recken her to be assumpted the eight fourtieth yeare of Christ. Wherefore you do vs great iniurie to say that we deny S. Denys to haue writen those workes because he giueth testimonie for the Catholike faith in most things now cōtrouersed For that which we deny is in respect of the truth because indéede he wrote them not But in respect of his testimonie for the Catholike faith I wish that I might graunt with a safe conscience that hee wrote them He is so plaine against the most of your heresies chiefly the Popes supremacie Hart. Neither is that an heresie nor is he against it nay hée is plaine for it For he saith as your selfe rehearsed out of him that Peter is the chiefe and ancientst toppe of the Apostles Rainoldes But he saith farther that for as much as the scriptures say to Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen therefore he and accordingly to him euery Bishop doth admit the godly and disinherite the godlesse by declaring the sentence and administring the word of God And this doth plucke vp the Popes supremacie by the rootes For your maisters ground it on that charge of binding
not name him And S. Ambrose saith of that promise of Christ I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the rest which followeth that what is said to Peter is said to the Apostles And Ierom saith that the foundation and firmenesse of the church lay on all the Apostles equally and they did all receiue the keyes And Origen saith that Christes promise of building his church of giuing the keyes of binding and loosing made as to Peter onely was common vnto all And Hilarie saith in like sort that through the worthinesse of their faith they obtained the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the power of binding and loosing in heauen and earth Neither doo I doubt but other of the Fathers haue said as much as these in the expounding of these words But haue they or not this is no path for vs to walke in if we séeke the right way For neither might we hope for an ende of our trauels because of sundrie expositions one contrarie to an other and we should faint for thirst in time of heate and drouth looking for water in the wildernesse as the trauellers of Tema and that is woorst of all sometimes wee should leaue the pure water of truth and swill vp puddle in stéed of it For although the Fathers were men indued of God with excellent gifts and brought no small light to vnderstanding of the scriptures yet learned men in our dayes may giue a right sense of sundrie places thereof which the Fathers saw not yea against the which perhaps they consent Hart. The Councell of Trent condemneth them that say so Rainoldes As learned men as any were at that Councell say it And they doo it too Hart. Who Caluin and Beza Rainoldes Truely I doo iudge no lesse of their learning And if I be of any iudgement I iudge not parcially in it But thinke of thē as you list S. Austin hauing folowed S. Cyprian in expounding a certaine place of Scripture afterward did finde in Tyconius the Donatist an other exposition which thinking to be truer he preferred it before Cyprians Whereby you may sée that although you thought as yll of Caluin and Beza as did S. Austin of the Donatists yet if you had S. Austins minde you would rather follow the sense which they giue sometimes of the scriptures then that which is giuen by auncient godly Fathers Neuerthelesse my minde was not of them when I mentioned learned men For to what purpose Sith I am not ignorant how small account you make of them My minde was of your owne men who say so and doo so Hart. What Against the Councell of Trent UUho bée they Rainoldes First the flower of your Cardinals the Cardinall Caietan beginning to expound the scriptures dooth set it downe for a principle that God hath not tied the exposition of the scriptures vnto the senses of the Fathers UUherefore if he fall vpon a new sense agreeable to the text though it go against the streame of the Fathers he doth aduise the reader not to mislike of it Hart. But the flower of our Bishops Bishop Melchior Canus misliketh the Cardinal for that his rash sentence and reprooueth it as an errour yea as the common sentence of heretikes and schismatikes Rainoldes But the flower of your Doctors D. Payua Andradius rebuketh this your Bishops reproofe as more rash yea defendeth Caietan against it as a slander He teacheth first that the Fathers doo in many places not expound the Scriptures according to the literall sense the onely which hath weight to proue pointes of faith but allegorically and morally We may leaue their allegories and expound them literally He teacheth next that when they seeke the literall senses of the scriptures they doo not alwaies finde them but giue diuers senses one vnlike an other We may forsake their senses all and bring a new vnlike to theirs Moreouer to make the thing euident by examples him selfe expoundeth sundry places otherwise then the Fathers haue declaring that hée doth it vpon sufficient ground Againe he proueth by the sayings of the chiefe of the Fathers that they spake not oracles whē they expounded the Scriptures but might therein be deceiued He sheweth furthermore that the ouersightes of the translatiō which they followed must cause them needes to misse sometimes the right meaning of the holie Ghost Finally he addeth that experience forceth vs to confesse vnlesse we will be vnthankfull to most excellent wittes that verie manie things in Moses and the Prophets are in this our age expounded more exactly through the diligence of learned men then euer they were before Whereupon he concludeth that the holy Ghost the onely and faithfull interpreter of the Scriptures would haue manie things to be knowne to vs which our auncestors knew not and hath wrought by meanes vnknowne to vs knowne to him that the Fathers noted good and godlie mysteries out of verie manie places of the Scriptures whereof the right and naturall sense hath beene found out by the posteritie This is in few words the iudgement of Andradius which he prosecuteth more at large in the defense of Cardinall Caietan against quarellers who did cauill at him because he wrote that it is lawfull to go against the streame of the auncient Fathers in expounding of the Scriptures Hart. I care not for the iudgement of Andradius or Caietan or any other priuate man though you could bring a hundred of them I doo not build my faith on them Rainoldes Although you care not for their iudgement yet you should care for their reasons Of which the light is so great that vnlesse a man haue altogether lost his eyes he can not choose but see the truth and brightnesse of them Neither may you set so litle by their iudgement chiefly the iudgement of Andradius If you doo it may be the price of his contempt will helpe to purchase your confusiō For the Councel of Trent the fairest flower of your garland chiefest piller of your faith is but the consent of a few such as Andradius was or rather none such perhaps Let the Italians witnes it who wondred at his gifts Theyloue not them selues so ill as to woonder at common thinges in straungers A great token of it that the faith of Trent most iustly charged by Kemnicius who tried the Spirit of the Councell and proued it the Spirit of errour found no man to defend it but Andradius to speake of For Tiletan is a trifler not woorthy to be named the same day that he is But let the Authours with their reasons be proofes of no value and grant that if the Fathers all consent in one their exposition must be stood too What if the Fathers dissent in expounding a place of the Scripture as oftentimes they doo Which of their expositions must we follow then Hart. If one expound a thing otherwise then all the rest the rest must be
haue Nor yet am I ashamed of that kinde of triall and iudgement by the godly who haue not learned toonges and artes but Christ onely And I comprised it in that which I said that Christ is the iudge and they which vnder him haue it committed to them euen the church of Christ. For himselfe hath giuen by speciall commission two sortes of iudgement to his church the one priuate the other publike priuate to all the faithfull and spirituall as God calleth them who are willed to iudge of that which is taught and to trie spirits whither they be of God publike to the assembly of pastors and elders for of that which Prophets teach let Prophets iudge and the spirites of Prophetes are subiect to the Prophets In both of the which the church must yet remember that God hath committed nothing but the ministerie of giuing iudgement vnto her The soueraintie of iudgement dooth rest on Gods word For Christ is our onely Doctor Law-giuer according to whose written will the church must iudge And so to returne vnto the wordes of Christ from which we digressed the sense I gaue of them will I proue by scripture according to the rule of faith the proofe of the sense I submit to the priuate and publike iudgement of the church The wordes of Christ to Peter conteined a promise of the keyes I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen The occasion of the wordes was a question of Christ asked of the Apostles answered by Peter whom say yee that I am Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God The sense which I gathered by laying these together was that as Peter answered one for all so the keyes were meant to him one with all To proue the former point that Peter answered one for all the scripture is most plaine in the sixt of Iohn where before this time Peter had confessed in their common name We beleeue and know that thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God To proue the later that the keyes were meant to him one with all the scripture is as plaine in the twentieth of Iohn where Christ performing that which he had promised to Peter doth say to him with the rest As my Father sent me so doo I send you Whose sinnes soeuer ye remit they are remitted to them whose sinnes soeuer ye reteine they are reteined Wherefore sith the keyes were promised by Christ on the profession of their fayth which was common to them all and the promise was performed when he sent them all with power to binde and loose to remit and reteine sinnes it followeth that the keyes belonged no more to Peter then to all the Apostles And therefore the promise of the keyes to him importeth no headship of his ouer them Hart. That which was promised by Christ vnto Peter was not performed to the Apostles For he gaue not them the keyes of his kingdome but the power of remitting and reteyning sinnes Rainoldes These things differ in wordes but they are one in sense as Ioseph said to Pharao Both Pharaos dreames are one For as God to teach Pharao what he would do in Egipt by seuen yeares of plentie seuen yeares of famine did vse two sundrie dreames of kine and eares of corne the surer to resolue him of his purpose in it so Christ to teach vs what he doth for mankind in ordeining the ministerie of the word Sacraments vseth two similituds the one of keyes the other of binding loosing that we may know the better the fruit force of it Touching the keyes he speaketh of heauen as of a house wherinto there is no entrance for men vnlesse the doore be opened Now we all Adams ofspring are shut out of heauen as Adam our progenitour was out of Paradise through our offenses and sinnes For no vncleane thing shall enter into it But God of his loue and fauour towards vs hath giuen vs his sonne his onely begotten sonne that whosoeuer beleeueth in him should not perish but haue eternall life which is the inheritaunce reserued in heauen for vs. We cannot beleeue vnlesse wée heare his word We heare not his word vnlesse it be preached Wherefore when God the Father sent his sonne Christ and Christ sent his Apostles as his Father sent him to preach his word to men that they who repented and beleeued in Christ should haue their sinnes forgiuen them the faithlesse vnrepentant should not be forgiuen then he gaue authoritie as it were to open heauen to the faithfull and to shut it against the wicked Which office to shut and open because in mens houses it is exercised by keies and the stewarde of the house is saide to haue the key of it to open it and to shut it therefore Christ the principall steward of Gods house is saide to haue the key of Dauid and he gaue his Apostles the keies as you would say of the kingdome of heauen when hee made them his stewardes to shut out to let in The other similitude of binding and loosing is to like effect For we are all by nature the children of sinne and therefore of death Now sinnes are in a maner the same to the soule that cordes to the body and the endlesse paines of death that is the wages of sinne are like to chaines wherewith the wicked are bound in hell as in a prison From these cordes of sinne and chaines of death eternall men are loosed by Christ when their sinnes be remitted their sinnes are remitted if they beleeue in him If they beleeue not their sinnes are reteined whose sinnes are reteined they doo continue bound For he that beleeueth not shall be condemned he that beléeueth shall be saued None shall be condemned but they whose sinnes are reteined to binde them with the chaines of darkenesse none saued but they whose sinnes are remitted and the cordes vnloosed by which they were holden UUherefore sith the Gospell is preached to this ende a sauour of life to life vnto beléeuers vnto the vnbeléeuers a sauour of death to death as we reade of Christ that the Lord sent him to preach deliuerance to the captiues and opening of prison to them that are bound in like sort his ministers whom he sent to preach it are said to binde and loose to reteine and remit sinnes So that both these kinds of spéech import the same that is signified by keyes For to binde and to reteine sinnes is to shut to loose and to remit sinnes is to open the kingdome of heauen Your owne church dooth take the keyes in this meaning euen the Councell of Trent For whereas Christ gaue to his Apostles and their successours the power of binding and loosing that is of remitting and reteining sinnes as your selues expound it this power you call the power of the keies as
by which an entrance into heuen is opened because the gates of heauen are as it were vnlocked to them who haue remission and forgiuenes of sinnes and locked to the rest Which thinges being so this summe ariseth of them that sith the keyes of the kingdome of heauen are all one with the power of binding and loosing of remitting and reteining sinnes Christ therefore when he promised the keyes meant that power and when he gaue that power gaue the keyes But he gaue that power to all the Apostles It followeth then he gaue the keyes to them all Hart. You expounde these places I cannot tell how For much of that which you say is said by vs also and yet you agrée not with vs in the principall Howsoeuer you cast the parcels of your count there is a fault in the summe Wherefore you must pardon me if I allow it not For to vse his wordes whose opinion though you mislike him I farre estéeme aboue yours by the name of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen which Christ promised to Peter he simply meant all power whereby the kingdome of heauen in whatsoeuer sense you take it may bee shutte and opened As for that which followeth and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall bee bounde in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen this is not as some haue thought an explication or limitation of the keyes For so by those words should Christ haue restrained the power of Peter to the only outward ecclesiasticall court For it is the common opinion of all the Schoolemen that by those words whatsoeuer yee shall binde and so forth which are like to these wordes spoken vnto Peter and haue the same meaning an ecclesiasticall iudge in the outward court is made as by those other words whose sinnes ye remit and so forth an ecclesiasticall iudge in the inwarde court is made Wherefore if in this place that whatsoeuer thou shalt binde were an explication or limitation of the keies then by the name of keyes were promised to Peter a power iudiciall onely in the â—utward court which is but a part and that a lesser part of the power of the keyes For a great deale more excellent is the power of remitting sinnes then of excommunicating or suspending a man from his office or honour and therfore this may be exercised by him that is not a Priest whereas the other belongeth vnto Priestes onely Againe because our Sauiour addeth with a coniunction whatsoeuer thou shalt binde it must note differently some distinct power at the least in speciall euen as the other things all that go before vttered coniunctiuely are things distinct and different to wit and I say to thee and vpon this peter and hell gates shall not preuaile and to thee will I giue the keyes and lastly and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth and so forth Wherefore in these last wordes is promised to Peter not onely power of binding and loosing in the court either outward or inward which both are onely partiall actions of the keyes But because the keyes themselues were promised him indefinitly and were not restrained to any one kinde of opening or shutting doubtlesse all the power which is conteined in the keyes was promised to him how great soeuer it be and of what sort soeuer Now the whole power and correspondent fully and euenly to the keyes is to open and shut what meanes soeuer it be done by For to open and shut is the duetie of keyes in token whereof the keyes of the citie are brought vnto the chéefest magistrate that by his commandement the citie may be shut and opened To receiue the keyes therefore of the kingdome of heauen is to receiue the power of shutting and opening the kingdome of heauen whither you take the name of the kingdome of heauen for euerlasting life or for the communion of the militant church Now this is done by diuers and many other wayes beside those of binding and loosing in either court For Pastors doo open and shut the kingdome of heauen the one by exercising that power the other by withdrawing it in their whole spirituall gouernment in preaching of the word in ministring of Sacraments in making of lawes in expounding of the holy scripture in declaring articles of faith in deciding pointes of coÌ„trouersie and doubt To be short the keyes of the church may be diuided into the keye of knowledge and the key of power To open the scriptures belongeth to the key of knowledge which Christ himselfe exercised in the foure and twentieth of Luke and whereof he saide to the Lawiers ye haue taken away the key of knowledge and so foorth The key of power is either of order or iurisdiction And iurisdiction it selfe is either in the outward court by excommunicating by suspending from office by granting of pardons and making of lawes or in the inward court by forgiuing of sinnes All this most ample power correspondent wholly and euenly to the keyes is promised in this place by Christ to Peter onely Which as the force and meaning of the worde keyes so the kinde of spéech of holy scripture sheweth For in Esay the Prophet when it had béene sayd to the hye Priest Eliakim in the figure of Christ The key of the house of Dauid will I laye on his shoulder the scripture declaring the vse of this key dooth by and by adde and he shall open and none shall shut he shal shut and none shall open Which likewise is spoken againe of the person of Christ in the Apocalypse for he is called the holie one and true which hath the key of Dauid which openeth and no man shutteth shutteth and no man openeth Wherefore as Eliakim in figure Christ in truth receiuing the key of the house of Dauid that is of the church or the kingdome of heauen receiued withall the power of shutting and opening in like sort S. Peter being to receiue in the roome and stéede of Christ the keyes of the kingdome of heauen is out of controuersie to receiue withall the power of shutting and opening that is to say not onely of binding and loosing in iudgement of both the courtes which are onely partiall not totall and lesser not chiefe actions of the keyes which also were committed to all the Apostles in the eightienth of Mathew and twentieth of Iohn wheras the keyes were giuen to Peter alone but also besides of gouerning of teaching of disposing and dooing all thinges which may any way belong to the generall duetie of a Pastor which actions are fully and euenly correspondent to the keyes themselues and therefore in those words were promised to Peter alone principally before and ouer all the rest This is D. Stapletons iudgement of the keyes promised to Peter wherein the ground of Peters supremacy and headship ouer the Apostles is set downe verie plainly
as Canus D. Stapleton shew but not in the conclusion that is the principal point which they entend to teach Rainoldes Now you may sée how vainely you stâ—iue for the Pope For this which is your last hold when all is doone I oueâ—threw at first by the example of Honorius The conclusion and principal point of whose decrees set forth to teach the Church was the Monothelites heresie Whereby he did not strengthen his brethren in the faith but confirmed their wicked errors against the faith as the Councel pronounced of him Hart. Why doo all the Fathers then apply this priuilege of not failing and of confirming other in faith to the Roman Church and Peters successors in the same Rainoldes They doo not But your Rhemists who report that of them do shamefully misreport them For Austin Chrysostom Prosper and Theophylact doo vnderstand by faith a liuely Christian faith and say that Christ prayed that Peter might continue therein vnto the end Which grace neither they nor any Father saith that all the Popes haue Nay your selfe your Doctors yea Rhemists do confesse the contrarie Hart. Yet the rocke no doubt whereon Christ did promise that he would build his Church and the gates of hell should not preuaile against it is applyed by the Fathers to Peters successors in the church of Rome S. Austin is a witnesse thereof against the Donatistes whom he biddeth number the Priestes that is the Popes euen from the seate of Peter and marke their succession affirming it to be the rocke against which the proude gates of hell preuaile not And S. Ierom writing to Damasus the Pope auoucheth as much I am ioyned saith he in communion to your holinesse that is to Peters chaire I know that the Church is builded vpon that rocke Rainoldes The poore shippe of Christ hath made almost shipwracke vpon this rocke of yours I haue alreadie proued that the word petra which you translate a rocke doth signifie in Christes spéech a stone not a rocke Howbeit rocke or stone it makâ—th no difference to the sayings of the Fathers which you alleage concerning it For whether they meant a stone as it is properly or a rocke as it may be they did at least S. Austin through doutfulnesse of the worde they meant not to build the Papacie therby Wherfore if you thinke that the name of stone either hath not so great aduantage for your purpose or doth not yéelde so fully the meaning of the Fathers I am content with out preiudice to that which I haue spokeÌ„ touching the right sense thereof in Christes spéech to vse your rocke in steede of it Hart. So you must doo if you will deale with my argument For the maiestie of the Church of Rome is much aduanced by the name of the rocke and in my iudgement the Fathers meant no lesse when they applyed the words of Christ to that Sée Rainoldes The Fathers vsed those wordes to aduance the maiestie of the Church of Rome but neither to aduance the church of Rome alone neither to import the Popes supremacie by that maiestie And this may be gathered plainely by S. Cyprian who although he giue a speciall tiâ—le of honour preeminence to the Church of Rome yet doth he apply that of the rock to the Church in general For he affirmeth that our Lord tooke order for the office of a Bishop and the state of his Church by saying vnto Peter Thou art Peter and on this rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it and to thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen Thence by course of times and successions there floweth the ordeining of Bishops and the state of the Church that vpon the Bishops the Church should be set and euery action of the Church should be gouerned and guided by the same rulers In the which wordes S. Cyprian you see accounteth all Bishops the rocke of the Church That as by the church built vpon the rocke the whole Church is meant and not the Church of Rome or of Carthage onely so neither the Bishop of Rome nor of Carthage may be represented alone by the rocke and yet as well the Bishop of Carthage as of Rome Hart. Howsoeuer it seemed in S. Cyprians iudgement to belong to all Bishops and so after a sort to the Bishop of Carthage as he applyeth it yet other of the Fathers apply it in speciall to the Bishop of Rome giue it particularly to that Church Sée Rainoldes They doo but in such sort that they might haue done it to any faithfull Church euen to the Church of Carthage as S. Cyprian did For that which is verified of a thing in generall is verified in the speciall As for example the Catholike Church in generall is named the house of God and the spouse of Christ. The Apostle applyeth those titles in special the one to the Hebrewes the other to the Corinthians if they continue faithfull And so what Christ hath said of his whole Church that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it that is true in euery part of his Church And if he named Peter a rocke in respect of the faith that hee professed on the which he said he would build his Church then al on whom professing the same faith of Christ his Church in part is builded may in a proportion be called rockes also Wherefore sith the Fathers did speake of the Church of Rome when it was holy and of the Roman Bishops when they professed the faith of Peter no maruaile if they said the Church was built on that rocke and the gates of hell did not preuaile against it Howbeit I deny not but that in their spéeches of the Church of Rome they giue more vnto it then they could haue giuen to euery faithfull Church For whereas of the sundry Churches of Christ some were planted by the Apostles them selues as Ierusalem Antioche Corinth Rome some receiued the faith from them which the Apostles planted they had the former sort in greater reputation and called them Apostolike Churches amongst which they counted the Church of Rome a chiefe one as planted by the chiefe Apostles Peter and Paule And because it was famous that Peter had preached the Gospel there whom as the first Apostle it séemeth that the Romans did more reioyce in then in Paule thence it commeth that in speaking of the Church of Rome they mention oftentimes the seat and chaire of Peter For they who did teach were wont to teach fitting as I shewed before by the example of Christ and his wordes of the Scribes and Pharises
they breake it Hart. Christ by singular priuiledge did exempt them from it Rainoldes Then there was a law which did bind them to it Hart. What else For they should haue done it though they did it not Rainoldes Should that they did not How doo you proue it Hart. Because an order must be set which should be kept by the posteritie Rainoldes An order For whom For Apostles you graunt that man might not ordaine them For Bishops other men did ordaine them as rightfully as Peter did But you had rather make this shew of an answere then say that which you should say in truth I cannot tell For you deale with vs as Erucius did with Roscius whom when hee accused that he had killed his father because his father purposed to disinherit him Thou must proue saith Tully that his father did purpose it The father did purpose to disinherite his sonne For what cause I know not Did he disinherite him No. Who did hinder it He did mind it Did he mind it Whom told he so No bodie Your answeres vnto me are very like to these but somewhat more vnorderly For to ground the Popes supremacie on Peter you said that the Apostles did all receiue their power at least their bishoply power of him You must make it manifest that they did so All the Apostles were to receiue their power of Peter What scripture saith so I know not Did they receiue it No. Who did hinder it They should haue done it Should they haue done it How proue ye it I can not tell I may not say of you as Tully of Erucius What is it else to abuse the lawes and iudgements and maiestie of the iudges to lucre and to lust then so to accuse and to obiect that which you not onely can not proue but do not as much as endeuour to proue it For I must beare you witnes you endeuour to proue it But you shall do better to surcease that endeuour vnlesse your proofes be sounder and haue not onely shew but also weight of trueth in them The third Chapter The performance which Christ is supposed to haue made of the supremacie promised 1 in saying to Peter Feede my lambes feede my sheepe 2 and Strengthen thy brethren With the circumstances of the pointes thereof Doost thou loue me and I haue prayed for thee Peter What and how they make for Peter how for all HART The promise made to Peter hath not onely shew but also weight of truth to proue his supremacie But to satisfy you who thinke it not weightie enough of it selfe I will adde thereto the performance of it and so you shall haue it weight with the aduantage For it was said to Peter in the presence of three Apostles Iames Iohn and Thomas by our Sauiour Christ euen at the very moment when he would now ascend vp vnto his father and therefore either then or neuer make his vicar Pasce agnos meos pasce oues meas Fede my lambes fede my sheepe Rainoldes Not at the very moment That is the aduantage I wéene which you will adde to make vp the weight as some adde eare-wax to light angels But the wordes were spoken what do you gather of them Hart. Christ in those wordes did truely performe the promise of the keyes which he had made to Peter But Christ gaue him commission to féede his whole flocke without exception of any Therefore he made him supreme head of the Apostles Rainoldes This reason doth séeme to be sicke of the palsie The sinewes of it haue no strength Hart. Why so Rainoldes Because in the charge of feeding sheepe and lambes neither was the commission giuen vnto Peter and if it were yet no more was committed to him then to the rest of the Apostles and if more yet not so much as should make him their supreme head Hart. If you proue the second of these thrée pointes the other two are superfluous Rainoldes They are so But you shall haue weight with aduantage to ouerwaigh your weight to vs ward And for the first I haue alreadie shewed that the commission which Christ gaue to Peter he had giuen it him before when he said As my father sent me so do I send you Receiue the holie Ghost Whose sins soeuer ye remit they are remitted to them whose sinnes soeuer ye reteine they are reteined Hart. But Christ gaue him not so much at that time as hée had promised him Wherefore part of his promise being performed then part was performed after then as much as he had ioyntly with the Apostles after that he had ouer them Rainoldes This is your bulwarke of Peters supremacie but it is builded on a lye For all that Christ had promised him was implied in that he had said To thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen Was it not Hart. It was so what then Rainoldes But in this commission sending him with ful authoritie and power he gaue him all the keyes of the kingdome of heauen In this commission therefore he gaue him all that he had promised Hart. I deny that he gaue him all the keyes in this commission Rainoldes I proue it All the keyes as it hath appeared by your owne confession are onely too the key of knowledge and of power or rather both of power by Thomas of Aquines iudgement whom you rather follow But Christ gaue him both those in this commission As my Father sent me so doo I send you Receiue the holie Ghost Wherefore in this commission he gaue him all the keyes of the kingdome of heauen And whatsoeuer keyes he gaue him in this he gaue the same to all the rest of the Apostles He gaue as much authoritie therefore to them all as he gaue to Peter But that is the next point Hart. Yet they receiued afterward the holie Ghost from heauen in the day of Pentecost And therefore they receiued not their whole commission of Christ at this time they wayted for a part of it Rainoldes Yes it was a part of their commission so to waite For as it is further declared by S. Luke when their vnderstanding was opened by Christ that they might vnderstād the scriptures he commanded them to stay in Ierusalem vntill they were indued with power from an high A King who putteth men in commission of peace doth giue them authoritie to execute that charge by the wordes of his commission If they perhaps haue not such wealth as is requisite for Iustices of peace to discharge their duetie and the King will giue them landes by such a day thereby to furnish them vnto it they receiue by their landes not authoritie which they had but abilitie which they wanted and the better they are landed the more are they inabled but not the more authorized to execute their duetie Christ the King of Kings did put his Apostles in the commission of peace of heauenly peace not
as Plato did excell among the Philosophers for witte and giftes of witte In the which conclusion that you may perceiue what I geue to Peter and refuse it if you mislike it by the giftes of grace I meane all the blessings wherewith the Lord did honour him by excelling in them I meane that he did passe not all the Apostles in them all but euery one in some or other For Iohn the disciple whom the Lord loued who wrote the Gospell so diuinely In the beginning was the worde who sawe by reuelation the things that were to come and wrote them by the spirite of prophecie Iohn excelled Peter in many giftes of grace as Ierom declareth And Paule excelled him farther euen in the chiefest giftes in so much that Austin who geueth excellent grace to Peter dooth geue most excellent grace to Paule and saith that he receiued more grace and laboured more then al the rest of the Apostles and is therefore called the Apostle by an excellencie But Peter of the other side excelled Paule in primacie that hée was chosen first and Iohn in age that he was elder in respect whereof hée was preferred before him by Ieroms opinioÌ„ to be the chief of the Apostles And this is it which Ierom and other Fathers meant by Peters principalitie if you will geue them leaue to be their owne interpreters They did not meane to call him Prince of the Apostles as the Pope desireth to bee Prince of Bishops Hart They did meane to call him the mouth and the top the highest the President and the head of the Apostles For these as I haue shewed are their own wordes by which a preeminence in gouernment is prooued and not in grace onely Rainoldes These in déede come néerer to the point in question because they touch gouernment at the least some of theÌ„ For some as the highest and so the toppe it may be too séeme to haue béene meant rather of preeminence in grace then in gouernment But if you will referre them vnto both it skilleth not For they can betoken no more then the rest And the rest doo signifie although a preeminence in gouernment such as it is yet nothing in comparison of your supremacie This is plaine by that which was agreed betwixt vs when wee spake of the practise of Peters autoritie in the Actes of the Apostles For when I graunted him to be as the Speaker of the Parlament in England or the President of a court of Parlament in Fraunce and shewed the great difference out of a lawier of your owne betweene this preeminence and that supremacie which you claime you reiected the lawier as either ignorant or vnfaithful and refused this préeminence as not importing that supremacie because it hath not soueraine power nay in power is vnder the body of the assembly aboue which it is in a prerogatiue of honor Yet this preeminence is all that is geuen to Peter by the titles of the mouth the head the President of the Apostles Wherefore it is euident that by those titles your Papall supremacie is not geuen to him Hart. It may by your similitudes be probably thoght that some of the rest might note such a preemineÌ„ce in gouernment as you speake of without a souerainty of power But the title of head hath greater strength in it For the Speaker is not called with vs in England the head of the Parlament That title is reserued to the Princ e alone Rainoldes But the President of a Court of Parlament in Fraunce is called head of the Court and Austin or rather he whom you alleadged in the name of Austin expoundeth head by President and the name of head as I haue prooued out of the Scriptures is vsed to note a preeminence of other things not of power much lesse of Princely power only Then what reason is there but Ierom in saying that Peter was appointed head might signifie the preeminence not of a Prince but of a Speaker We geue not in England the name of head vnto the Speaker True Neither geue we the name of Speaker to the Prince But Peter hath them both For hee is called the mouth and head of the Apostles If the one debase him not to the meanenesse of a Speakers function why should the other aduaunce him to the highnesse of a Princes soueraintie Hart. S. Ieroms reason sheweth that hée rather meant a soueraintie as of a Prince For he â—aith that Peter was chosen one amongst the twelue to the intent that a head beeing appointed occasion of schisme might be taken away And how can occasion of schisme be taken away vnlesse that one haue souerain power to gouerne all Rainoldes Why Doo you not thinke that Fraunce appointed Presidents in the Courts of Parlament for the better ordering of them in their dooings that occasion of strife might be taken away What In frée States which are ruled in commoÌ„ not by one Prince but by the best men or by the whole people doo not their stories shew that one had a preeminence as the Consul at Rome the Prouost at Athens though the soueraintie were in many who had like authoritie and power amongst themselues And did they not appoint this one to be the chiefe and head of their company that occasion of strife might be taken away So fared it with Peter amongst the Apostles in gouerning the church whose state if wée compare with the states of common wealths we shall finde that it was an aristocratie not a monarchie as the Philosophers terme it not hauing Peter as a Prince but the Apostles as the best men to gouerne it in common Yet as in all assemblies wherein many méete about affaires of gouernment there must néedes be one for orders sake and peace to beginne to end to moderate the actions so was that preeminence geuen to Peter amongst the Apostles that all things might be done peaceably and orderly And this to be the headship which S. Ierom meant himself in that very place in which he toucheth it dooth shew manifestly For hauing set downe his aduersaries obiection But thou saiest the church is built vpon Peter he answereth thereto Although the same be done in another place on all the Apostles and they all receiue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the strength of the church is grounded on them equally yet therefore is one chosen amongst the twelue that a head being appointed occasion of schisme may be taken away Of the which sentence the former branch sheweth that by the name of head vsed in the later he could not meane that Peter had a soueraine power ouer the Apostles For all Peters power is comprised in the keies that Christ did promise him and in the building of the church vpon him But all the Apostles receiue the keyes by Ieroms iudgement and the church is builte vpon them
breath doo say that the same thing is both writen and vnwriten Yet Father Robert dealeth wiselyer and like a Iesuite who séeing the danger of naming speciall men and places doth shrowd himselfe in the generall of Councels Popes and Fathers As if an horse-stealer being to giue account of whom and where he got his horses should say that he bought them of incorporations horse-coursers and honest men within Christendom Hart. Will you leaue your roauing and come vnto the marke now Rainoldes It is a roauing marke we shote at and I am come néerer it then you would haue me But what shall be your next baâ—â— Hart. I told you that I would proue it next by the Fathers It agreeth very well with your spirit that you should call this a bolt Rainoldes Well enough as you shoote it For although the Lord hath planted the writings of the Fathers as trees in his Church as in a Paradise whereof there may be made good shaftes blessed is the man that hath his quiuer full of them they shall not be confounded but they shall destroy their enimies in the gate yet not all the shaftes which you do vse of theirs are good your fletchers at whose handes you take them vpon trust doo marre them in the making that I may iustly call them rather bolts of Papistes then shafts of the Fathers Who if they were aliue might say to you in like sorte as did a Poet to Fidentinus This booke Sir Fidentinus which thou doost reade is mine But thou by reading it amisse beginst to make it thine Hart. Will you promise then to yelde vnto the Popes supremacie if I proue it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers alleaged and applyed rightly Rainoldes I truly But I must doo it with a protestation for my defense against such quarrelers as Bishop Iewell fell vpon Hart. With what protestation Rainoldes With this that I promise to yéelde vnto the Popes supremacie if you can proue it by the Fathers not becaâ—â—e I thinke that proofe to be sufficient of doubtfull matters in religion but because I know you are not able so to proue it Hart. Whether I be able or no so to proue it the thing it selfe will shew But if you thinke not that a sufficient proofe why saide you that the writinges of Fathers are as trees whereof there may be made good shaftes such as shall destroy their enimies in the gate yea that the man is blessed who hath his quiuer full of them Rainoldes It is writen in the Psalmes Except the Lord keepe the citie the keeper watcheth in vaine By the which wordes the Prophet séemeth to haue thought that the warde and watch of men is not sufficient for the defense of cities vnlesse the Lord assist them with his watch and ward How say is not this true Hart. So. What of that Rainoldes That is an answere to your question For the Prophet adding how God doth blesse men in giuing them children saith they are as arrowes in the hand of a strong man blessed is the man that hath his quiuer full of them they shall not be confounded but they shall destroy their enimies in the gate If this be truly spoken of children well nurtured who yet are not sufficient to defend a citie without the Lordes assistance why might it not be spoken of Fathers well vsed and yet they not suffice to decide a controuersie without the worde of God For though I acknowledge there is good wood in them to make shaftes for the Lordes warres yet is not all their wood such some of it is knottie some lithy â—ome crooked And the best arrowes which are made thereof vnlesse they haue heades of stronger mettall then them selues out of the Lords armorie they are not sharpe enough to pearce into the harte of the kinges enimies as are the arrowes of our Salomon Wherefore as of your part if you hearken not to Moses and the Prophetes I haue no greate hope that Fathers will perswade you though they should rise from the dead so for my selfe I will assure you that neither dead nor quicke Fathers nor children shall perswade me any thing in matters of religion which they can not proue by Moses and the Prophetes For the Apostles preached not any thing but that which the Prophetes and Moses saide should come to passe And if a Father if a Saint if an Angell from heauen preach beside that which the Apostles preached let him be accursed This lesson I haue learned of Paul the Apostle and I subscribe vnto it If you can like it better out of a Fathers mouth learne it of S. Austin Who writing against the Donatists which could not proue by scripture their erroneous doctrine doth presse them with the same sentence and teach al Christians the same lesson whether it be of Christ or of his Church or of any thing els whatsoeuer pertaining to our faith and life I will not say if we but if an Angel from heauen shall preach to you besides that which you haue receyued in the scriptures of the law and the Gospel that is to say the olde and new testament let him be accursed Hart. You mistake the meaning of S. Austins wordes For they are thus in Latin Proinde siue de Christo siue de eius ecclesia siue dâ— quacunque alia re quae pertinet ad fidem vitamque nostram Rainoldes I haue the right meaning of these wordes I trow for they are plaine of all thinges that doo concerne our faith and life Hart. I but heare the rest Non dicam si nos nequaquam comparandi ei qui dixit licet nos sed â—mnino quod sequutus adiecit si angelus Rainoldes Neither doo I mistake these For he alludeth to the wordes of Paul to the Galatians Hart. But you mistake the meaning of that which doth follow Si angelus de coelo vobis annuntiauerit praeterqà um quod in scripturis legalibus euangelicis accepistis anathema sit Rainoldes Why doth he not meane the old new testameÌ„t as we call them by the scripâ—ures of the law and the gospell Hart. Yes but your errour is in the worde praeterquà m by which he meaneth contra quà m not beside that but against that For there are sundrie thinges of faith and life to be preached beside them in the scriptures of the law and the gospell but not against them Wherefore if it were so that the Popes supremacie could not be proued by scriptures yet the proofe of it by the Fathers might be good For it were not against the scriptures although it were beside the scriptures Rainoldes Praeterquà m id est contra quà m beside that which you haue receyued in the scriptures that is against that This is your Louanists glose Hart. Nay it is S. Austins as you may perceiue by his own wordes in an other place touching the same matter where he saith thus The Apostle did not say
the godly And giue to sinners pardon Now sith our reformed Church hath thought it impious to offer any such prayers to creatures why haue you retained this to the crosse and not the other to S. Thomas Hart. Whether that prayer to S. Thomas of Canterburie were in the Roman Portesse before they reformed it I am not sure perhaps it was not although it were in ours after the vse of Sarum Rainoldes Most likely that it was in the Roman too sith he dyed a martyr of the Roman Papacie But whether it were or no there were other thinges vncertaine and inconuenient which the reformers haue left out as the Pope confesseth Who confesseth also that almost al Primers yea the Latin too were stuffed full with vaine errours of superstitions before he reformed it Wherefore sith you haue left out other superstitious inconuenient things in your reformed Seruice-bookes why haue you retained this prayer to the crosse which might haue gone with the rest Hart. The other were aâ—olished iustly as vnfit But this is â—ot so For why should you mislike a prayer to the crosse of which S. Paule saith God forbid that I should reioyce but in the crosse of our Lord Iesus Christ Rainoldes That is in Christ crucified as S. Paule doth meane it not in the wood the galowes the tree to which you make your prayer For God forbidde that wee should reioyce in any thing sauing in the Lord whose redéeming of vs by suffering death vpon the crosse because it was a stumbling blocke to the Iewes S. Paule saith the crosse was a stumbling blocke by a figuratiue spéech meaning as him selfe doth open it Christ crucified And so he calleth Christes blood the blood of the crosse and the preaching of his gospell the preaching of the crosse and persecution rising of it persecution for the crosse and against them who reioyced in circumcision and the law he saith that he reioyceth not but in the crosse of our Lord Iesus Christ. But to the purpose of my question if they of your Church who reformed your Seruice-bookes thought that of the prayers which we doo mislike they might abolish some and retaine others what if amongst the feastes which others doo mislike they who reformed our ceremonies retained the annuntiation and purification of the virgin though they abolished the conception natiuitie and assumption Chiefly séeing that in those which they reteined they regarded the honour of Christ conceiued and presented as your selues acknowledge in those which they abolished they remoued the superstitious worship of a creature as the thing witnesseth For both they were supposed to be feastes instituted to a Saintes honour as they were indéede neither is there any thing of them in the scriptures that men might be edified by that wherof the memorie was celebrated in them and they maintaine corrupt opinions touching the virgin with derogation to Christes honour For you meane by the feastes of her natiuity and conception that she was neither borne nor conceiued in sinne Which if it were so then neither she néeded Christ to be her Sauiour who came to saue sinners the prerogatiue of Christ to be seuered from sinners were common vnto her with him A thing so absurd and contrarie to the scriptures which shew that all haue sinned and are the children of wrath by nature that not the Fathers onely but your chiefe Schoole-men and Canons also doo gainesay it Yea the feast of her conception when it was créeping in was therefore reproued and the very glose of your Canon-law condemned sundry countries and England namely for kéeping it But the conception and natiuitie of the blessed virgin make her scarse equall vnto Christ the feast of the assumption doth lift her somwhat higher For when Christ was taken vp into heauen the Apostles were lead forth a litleway on foote to sée it and witnes it But to her assumption they were brought by miracle in cloudes as in chariots from all the coastes of the world through which they were dispersed And this is it which I called and cal againe a fable or if you will a lye as Bede doth though your Diuines of Rhemes doo vouch it as a true storie Hart. It is a true storie as our Diuines of Rhemes doo â—ouch it though as he reported it whom venerable Bede doth touch it was a lye For he reported it to haue béene doon the second yeare after Christes ascension which Bede doth proue it could not be But our Diuines referre it to the fifteenth yeare after For they take the common opinion that she liued three score and three yeares in all Now shee brought forth Christ when she was fifteene yeare olde So that her assumption was eight and fortie yeares after Christs natiuitie And this agréeth with Eusebius who saith that some do write it was reueled to them that she was assumpted the eight and forteeth yeare of Christ which was fifteene yeares after his ascension Rainoldes Then you graunt that they who say it was the second yeare after doo lye Hart. I graunt For that circumstance can not stand with scripture as venerable Bede doth proue Rainoldes Then a holy nunne did lye or an angel or a deuill that appéered in the likenes of the virgin and tolde her that tale Hart. What if some were deceiued in circumstance of time Yet the storie notwithstanding of her assumption is true as our Diuines of Rhemes report it For at the time of her death as S. Denys first and after him S. Damascene writeth al the Apostles then dispersed into diuers nations to preach the gospell were miraculously brought togither sauing S. Thomas who came the third day after to Ierusalem to honour her diuine departure and funerall as the said S. Denys writeth Who saith that him self S. Timothee and S. Hierotheus were present testifying also of his owne hearing that both before her death and after for three daies not onely the Apostles and other holy men present but the Angels also and powers of heauen did sing most melodious hymnes They buried her sacred body in Gethsemani But for S. Thomas sake who desired to sée and to reuerence it they opened the sepucher the third day and finding it voide of the holy body but excéedingly fragrant they returned assuredly déeming that her body was assumpted into heauen As the Church of God holdeth being most agréeable to the singular priuilege of the mother of God and therefore celebrateth most solemnely the day of her assumption And it is consonant not onelie to the said S. Denys S. Damascene but to S. Athanasius also who auoucheth the same Of which assumption of her bodie S. Bernard also wrote fiue notable sermons extant in his workes Rainoldes But in all those fiue sermons of S. Bernard there
is not one worde of your miraculous fable As litle in S. Athanasius beside that the sermon which you alleage as his is in your own edition reiected for a bastard In Damascene there is more yet not so much neither as here your Portesse hath But he is too late too weake a witnes to proue a doubtful matter pretended to be doon almost fiue hundred yeares before him The best or rather all your proofe is S. Denys whom you belye notablie For where saith he that which you doo father on him Hart. Where in an epistle of his to S. Timothee Rainoldes He wrote no such epistle Your Rhemistes did mistake their Portesse whence this stuffe is borowed For reading there that Denys wrote hereof to Timothee they thought it had béene in an epistle to Timothee The place which they meant is in a booke entitled of the names of God pretended to be writen to Timothee by Denys Hart. In a booke or an epistle it is a great matter why you should charge them with lying Rainoldes I doo not therefore charge them with it Neither would I mention this but to point you the place in which they lye For they say that S. Denys writeth these these things where neither the autour who writeth is S. Denys neither writeth he the thinges which they alleage Touching the thinges first he saith no more thereof but that amongst the Bishops inspired of the holy Ghost Hierotheâ—s excelled all the rest saue the Apostles in praysing Christes goodnesse when him selfe and Timothee and many of their holy brethren came together to behold the body which receyued God and which the Prince of life was in As for the miracle of the Apostles brought together S. Thomas comming the thirde day after the Angels singing hymnes three dayes the buriall of the virgins body the desire of Thomas to see it the sepulcher opened for his sake and the body assumpted into heauen he saith not one worde of these conceites not one word Nay he rather saith against them For he noteth namely that Iames was also present the brother of the Lord and Peter the chiefe and ancientest toppe of the Apostles Which it is not likelie he would so note of two Apostles if they had all béene present Much lesse is it likely that he would say nothing of so great a miracle if any such had happened Hart. Perhaps it is writen in some other parte of S. Denys workes Rainoldes In no part at all of anie worke that beareth the name of S. Denys Hart. Not that is extant now But he wrote manie more as Nicephorus sheweth and Damascene maketh mention of this epistle to Timothee Rainoldes Nay that which Damascene mentioneth is the booke I spake of whence all that he citeth is taken word for word Yea Nicephorus also doth alleage the same quoting the very chapter as the onely place wherein the assumption of the blessed virgin is proued by S. Denys The more doo I maruell what should moue your Rhemists to say that S. Denys writeth and witnesseth that all the Apostles were brought miraculously together to honour her diuine departure yea and that he testifieth of his own hearing that both before her death and after for three dayes the Angels did sing most melodious hymnes vnlesse they were disposed to lye for the whetstone But this of the thinges The other of the autour is not so great a faute yet a faute too For they would haue men thinke that he who wrote this worke of the names of God others of the heauenly ecclesiastical hierarchie as he termeth it was the famous Denys the scholer of S. Paul Wheras it was a counterfeit who tooke that Denys name vpon him Hart. It was that famous Denys in déed who wrote those notable and diuine workes and others in which he confirmeth and proueth plainely almost all thinges that the Church now vseth in the ministration of the holy sacraments and affirmeth that he learned them of the Apostles giuing also testimonie for the Catholike faith in most thinges now controuersed so plainely that your men haue no shift but to deny that Denys to haue béene the autour of them feyning that they be an others of later age Which is an old sleight of heretikes but most proper to you of al others Who séeing al antiquitie against you are forced to be more bold or rather impudent theÌ„ others in that point Rainoldes These flowers of your Seminarie that wee are heretikes bold impudent that all antiquitie is against vs you may spare them for they are stale they haue béene dipt in gall lye You say that he proueth plainely almost al things that the Church now vseth in the ministration of the holy Sacraments If you meane by the Church not our Church but yours that almost must haue fauor or els without almost you lauish For though he haue more thinges then either the Church of the Apostles had or ours doth allow yet neither all that you haue many that you haue not and some cleane contrarie to yours As namely in the sacrament of the Lords supper wherin you varie from vs most he neither hath your stage-like gestures toyes nor inuocation of Saintes nor adoration of creatures nor sacrificing of Christ to God nor praying for the soules in Purgatorie nor sole receyuing of the Priest nor ministring vnder onâ— kind to them who receiue nor exhortations lessons prayers in a tongue which the people doth not vnderstand So that in thingâ— of substance and not of ceremonie only he differeth as farre from your blasphemous Masse as he is néere to our Communion But the thinges which he hath you say that he affirmeth he learned them of the Apostles He doth so I graunt as it was fit for him who would be counted that Denys which was conuerted by S. Paul But as it happeneth vnto counterfeites he hath forgot himselfe in one place and so betrayed the feate For speaking of infants why they are baptized hereof saith he we say those thinges which our diuine maisters being instructed by the old tradition haue brought vnto vs. By the which words the man at vnawares hath shewed that he learned not not of the Apostles For Christ him selfe instructed the Apostles of baptisme they had it not from old tradition Hart. That is a weake coniecture why he should be a counterfeit For he might call the tradition of the Apostles old tradition though it were but certain yeares or moneths before him Rainoldes Hardly if he liued in the same time with them But if he might yet could he not say that the Apostles were instructed by the old tradition of the Apostles Belike his maisters were younger men Hart. Our coniectures may deceiue vs we must not trust them in such matters The Fathers count him the right Denys For Gregorie Nazianzen Origen
this that Malachie meaneth doth succéede the sacrifices of the Iewes and is offered in their stéede but praier fasting and the workes of charitie doo not succéede any but are ioined and coopled to euerie kinde of sacrifices Fifthly our workes chiefely in the iudgement of heretikes are defiled howsoeuer they séeme beautifull but this Prophetical offering is cleane of it selfe and so cleane of it selfe in comparison of the olde sacrifices that it cannot be polluted anie way by vs or by the woorst Priests For here in our testament they cannot choose all the best to them selues and offer to the Lord for sacrifice the féeble the lame and the sicke as before in the old because there is now one sacrifice so appointed that it cannot be chaunged so cleane that no worke of ours can distaine it Finally the Fathers and all that euer haue expounded this place of purpose catholikely haue expounded it of the sacrifice of the Masse yea then when they speake of the sacrifice of praier yea or of spirituall sacrifice Wherein the heretikes deceiue and are deceiued For the Fathers call our sacrifice some times an offering of prayer and a spirituall sacrifice because it is made with blessing and with prayer mysticall because the victime that is here hath not a grosse carnall and bloody consecration or sacrification as had the victimes of the Iewes Sée Tertullian in the third booke against Marcion in the end Iustin in Trypho Irenaeus in the fourth booke the two and thirtieth chapter Ierom on the eighth of Zacharie Austin in the first booke against the aduersarie of the law and the eightenth chapter albeit in the second booke against the letters of Petilian he doth expound it of the sacrifice of prayse Cyprian also in the first booke the sixtenth chapter against the Iewes Cyrill in the booke of worshipping in spirit and truth Eusebius in the first booke of preparation of the gospell Damascen in the fourth booke of the Catholike faith and the fourtenth chapter Theodoret vpon the first chapter of Malachie Thus farre D. Allen. By whom you may perceiue that we bring the right opinion of the Fathers with many other reasons out of the circumstances of the text it selfe to proue that the cleane offering in the Prophet Malachie doth signifie the sacrifice of the blessed Masse Rainoldes Nay I may perceiue that D. Allen bringeth the names of the Fathers though Damascen a childe in respect of the rest farre in yeares beneth them farther in iudgement but their names he bringeth he bringeth not their right opiniō For if their opiniō be searched examined it maketh nothing for him And therfore he doth onely name them quote them Which point of his wisdome your Rhemists folow much Many other reasons he bringeth I graunt besides the names of Fathers but it had béene better for him not to bring them For Tertullian Iustin Irenaeus Ierom Austin Cyprian Cyrill Eusebius Damascen and Theodoret would make a faire shew with their names alone if the other reasons and they were set a sunder Now being matched in a band together and agréeing no better then Ephraim with Manasses and Manasses with Ephraim who did eate vp one another they marre the matter with their discorde That as the Emperour Adrian saide when he was dying The multitude of physicians hath cast away the Emperour so may you complaine the multitude of reasons hath cast away the proofe which your Masse did hope to procure by Malachie Hart. Not so But their multitude helpeth one an other For many thinges which singled by them selues are weake are strong if they be ioyned and a three fold coard is not easily broken Rainoldes This is a roape of sande rather then a coard it will not hang together For whereas D. Allen doth thus alleage Malachie after your olde translation in euery place there is sacrificed and offered a cleane offering to my name saith the Lord of hostes the Hebrew text and after the Hebrew the Gréeke of the seuentie interpreters which the Fathers folow doo set it downe thus in euery place there is incense offered to my name and a cleane offering Now the worde incense is vsed in the scripture simply for prayers in the fifth chapter of the Reuelation where the golden vials of the foure and twentie Elders are full of odours or incenses to keepe the worde which are the prayers of the Saintes And so doo the Fathers expound the same in Malachie Wherefore the first reason which you rehersed of D. Allens that the worde to sacrifice being vsed by it selfe without a terme abridging it is taken in the scripture alwayes properly for the act of outward sacrifice is false both in it selfe and by the iudgement of the Fathers For that worde of his is incense in the Fathers according to the scripture But incense in the scripture is taken for prayers figuratiuely By the iudgement therefore and exposition of the Fathers that worde doth not inferre the sacrifice of the Masse but our spirituall sacrifices Hart. In déede S. Iohn expoundeth in the Apocalypse those odours to be the prayers of the Saintes But thereby it is plain as we note vpon it that the Saintes in heauen offer vp the prayers of faithfull and holy persons in earth called here Saintes and in the scripture often vnto Christ. And among so many diuine and vnserchable mysteries set down without exposition it pleased God yet that the Apostle him selfe should open this one point vnto vs that these odours be the laudes and prayers of the faithfull ascending and offered vp to God as incense by the Saintes in heauen That so you may haue no excuse of your errour that the Saintes haue no knowledge of our affaires or desires Rainoldes You are too too flitting on euery occasion from the present point in question to others And yet if we should enter into that controuersie about the worship of Saintes that honour which you giue them would finde no succour here For neither doth it follow that we must pray to them though they did offer vp our prayers neither is it certaine that the Saintes in heauen onely are represented in the foure and twentie Elders neither if they be can you proue that the prayers of Saintes which they offer are other mens prayers they may bee their owne And for my part I doo rather thinke that the foure and twentie Elders represent all the Saintes and faithfull both in heauen and earth who offer vp their owne prayers as incense to God For after that S. Iohn had saide that the odours are the prayers of the Saintes he addeth that they sang a new song saying Thou art worthie to take the booke and to open the seales thereof because thou wast killed and hast redeemed vs to God by thy blood out of euery kinred and tongue and people and nation and hast made vs Kinges and Priests vnto our God and
we shall raigne vpon the earth By the which wordes it seemeth that he openeth what the prayers are which they offer to Christ. And sith they who offer them doo say of them selues that Christ hath made them Kinges and Priests which S. Iohn before affirmeth of the Saintes on earth it may be that they also and not the Saintes in heauen onely are represented by the foure and twentie Elders Hart. Nay the foure and twentie Elders are described with golden crownes vpon their heads And the crowne is giuen to Saintes in heauen as it is writen Be thou faithfull vntill death and I will giue thee the crowne of life Rainoldes The rewarde of life giuen to the Saintes in heauen when they haue striued as they ought to doo and gotten the victory is called a crowne or as we speake a garland by allusion to a custome that was among the Grecians For such as got the masterie in their games of wrastling or running or the like were crowned with a garland in token of victorie Whereupon the scripture by a figure of spéech doth call life eternall wherewith God rewardeth the conquerours the crowne of life not a corruptible crowne as those of the Grecians were but incorruptible a crowne that can not wither euen a crowne of glory And as the crowne is taken in this sense for a garland to signify the blisse of endlesse life and ioy it is giuen onely to the Saintes in heauen who rest from their labours But the foure and twentie Elders had golden crownes set vpon their heads and a crowne of gold betokeneth a kingdome Wherefore sith the Saintes on earth are kinges also and not the Saintes in heauen onely the foure twentie Elders may signifie them both As it is both their duties to cast their crownes before the throne and say to him who sitteth on it Thou art worthie O Lord to receiue glory and honour and power for thou hast created all thinges and for thy willes sake they are and were created Hart. But they are saide also to be clothed in white raiment And the white raiment is vsed to betoken the brightnesse of glory wherewith the Saintes in heauen are clad For Christ doth pronounce of the godly in Sardis that they shall walke with him in white and when vpon the mountaine his clothes were white glistering it was a token of his glory Rainoldes But as white raiment doth betoken glory so doth it grace too For our Sauiour aduiseth the Church of the Laodiceans to buye of him white raiment that she may bee clothed and that her filthie nakednesse doo not appeere And the scripture sheweth touching the faithful of al tongues and peoples and kinreds and nations that they had washed their robes and made their robes white in the blood of the Lambe Wherefore sith no more is saide of the Elders but that they were in white raiment it may as wel agrée to the Saintes on earth who are in white of grace as to the Saintes in heauen who are in white of glory Hart. But they were sitting on foure and twentie seates about the throne of God and the throne is saide to haue béene set in heauen Wherefore it can not be that the Saintes on earth should be meant thereby Rainoldes Why Was not S. Paul on earth when he said our conuersation is in heauen Or doth he not meane the same of all the faithfull who liue after the lawes of the heauenly citie that is the Church of God and are not earthly minded Doth not S. Iohn him selfe in the Reuelation say that a great wonder appeered in heauen a woman clothed with the sunne and the moone was vnder her feete and vpon her head a crowne of twelue starres and she was with childe and cryed trauailing in birth and was pained readie to be deliuered And is not the Church on earth hereby meant clad as it were with Christ who is the sunne of righteousnes treading downe things worldly which change as the moone adorned with the doctrine of the Apostles as of starres and bringing forth the faithfull as children vnto God Doth not he say farther that there was a battel in heauen Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon fought and his angels but they preuailed not nether was their place found any more in heauen And is not this also meant of the militant Church in which the Prince of the faithfull Michael that is Christ with his angels and seruants doth fight against the dragon that is the deuil with his angels euen all his powers and ministers and doth preuaile against them Then if the Church militant on earth be represented both in this battel and in that woman as your selues confesse and yet S. Iohn describeth the one to haue appeered the other to be doon in heauen the foure twentie Elders might haue their seates in heauen by S. Iohns vision and notwithstanding signifie the faithfull on the earth also Which yet I say not as defining it to be so for I had rather learne then teach the Reuelation wherein I doo acknowledge there are many mysteries that God hath not reuealed to me but onely to shew that you haue no ground in the holy scripture why you should restraine it to the Saintes in heauen And if I could satisfie my selfe with such aduantage to plucke downe your fansies as you content your selues with to set them vp I might as well restraine it to the Saintes on earth sith the Elders say we shall raigne vpon the earth perhaps as Christ said that the meeke are blessed for they shal inherite the earth But you and your Rhemists should haue doon well before you medled with the scriptures to learne S. Austins lesson giuen to the Donatists who when they alleaged as fit a place of scripture out of the song of Salomon to proue that the Church was in Afrike alone as you to proue that Saintes in heauen know our desires out of the Reuelation S. Austin telleth them that he were very impudent who would expound an allegorie or darke speech of scripture for his owne aduantage vnlesse he haue also plaine and manifest testimonies by the light whereof the darke may be made euident Which point in this place doth touch you the néerer because though it be graunted that the Elders signify the Saintes in heauen alone yet the praiers which are spoken off may be their owne praiers to shew that they serue God as it is shewed after that the Angels doo and all the creatures in heauen and on the earth and in the sea and vnder the earth and the foure beasts and finally them selues againe For there are manifest testimonies of scripture that all the Saintes offer vp their owne praiers in which respect they all are Priests But no
mention blessing twise and that out of S. Paul Whereby the first point which the Councell of Trent nameth is approued to wéete of mysticall blessinges Rainoldes True if the Councell had meant by that worde as the scripture doth either the giuing of thankes vnto God or the sanctifying of creatures vnto holy vses or praying for the people that the Lord will blesse them But if they meant the making of the signe of the crosse as it is plaine they did both by the matter which that chapter handleth touching visible signes and by their intent to confirme the ceremonies which Protestants condemne and by the Canon of the Masse which is as ful of crosses as a coniurers circle and the worde he blessed is taken so there with a crosse in the middest of it then your mysticall blessinges of the Trent-fathers were neither meant by S. Paul nor mentioned by S. Austin Hart. Yes S. Austin séemeth to meanâ— there by blessing â—he 〈◊〉 of the signe of the crosse on the sacrament For in a â—â—rmon of his touching the same matter he saith that the body of Christ is consecrated with the signe of the crosse Rainoldes In what sermon is that Hart. Amongst his sermons de tempore the hundred eightieth and one Rainoldes That is amongst his sermons but none of his sermons For it vseth the wordes of Gregorie a Bishop of Rome who liued long after and mo thinges it hath by which it is certaine as your Diuines of Louan note that it is not S. Austins Howbeit neither he that did compile that sermon whosoeuer it were saith that the ceremonie of the crosse in consecrating was of S. Paules ordinance or a tradition of the Apostles which is the point that you had to proue by S. Austin and if you proue it not you doo not cléere the Trent-councell For I graunt that in S. Austins time yea before it the Christians as they vsed to signe their forhead with the crosse in token that they were not ashamed of Christ crucified whom the Iewes and Gentiles reproched for the death which he suffered on the crosse so they brought the rite thereof into the sacraments and vsed both the figure of the crossâ— and crossing in other thinges of God also But it doth not folow because the Christians did it therefore the Apostles ordeined it to be doon Hart. But it is likely that they did And certainely Tertullian a very ancient writer doth expresly say that Christians had it by tradition Rainoldes To signe their forhead with a crosse but not to signe the sacraments Tertullian was so ancient that he wrote it séemeth before that custom grew Besides you mistake him if you thinke he meant by the name of tradition a tradition of the Apostles For what soeuer custome not writen in the scripture was kept by the faithfull that because it was deliuered by some body from whom the vse thereof was taken hee saith it came in by tradition In so much that he affirmeth it both of Iewish customes before the Apostles as that their women couered their faces with vailes and of Christian after which yet are not Apostolike as the dipping thriâ—e of them who are baptized and feeding them with milke and hony And which plainely sheweth hee meant not the Apostles in it euery faithfull man may by his iudgement deuise such rites vpon reason neither must we respect the autours but the autoritie regard the thing deliuered whosoeuer did deliuer it Wherefore the tradition that Tertullian speaketh of is against the doctrine of your Trent-councell For neither doth he mention the signe of the crosse to haue béene vsed in consecration which he would of likelyhood if then it had béene vsed nor saith he that it came by tradition froÌ„ the Apostles in that sort as it was vsed but he knoweth not from whom Hart. Though none of thâ— Fathers perhaps beare witnesse of it yet if the Councell meant it by mysticall blessinges they knew that the Church had it from the Apostles For els they would not vouch it Rainoldes Then you were best to say that they learned it from heauen by reuelation as the Anabaptists are wont to doo their mysteries For els they could not know it Hart. You confesse your selfe that S. Austin and others of the auncient Fathers did vse it in celebrating of the holy sacraments I maruaile why you like it not in our Masse sith wee doo therein but as the Fathers did Rainoldes Nay I coÌ„fesse not that For your Massing-priest doth tricke iâ— as a sorcerer all in mathematicall or rather magicall numbers by crossing thrise the bread and wine both together and thrise againe both then once each in seueral and once againe each and againe thriâ—e once and againe once and thrise with a crosse on him selfe betwixt hetherto with his hand after with the host he crosseth thrise the chalice and twise to make vp fiue betwene his brest and the chalice next with the paâ—en he â—â—osseth once himself and the chalice thriâ—e witha péece of the host and once himselfe againe with the host ouer the paten and lastly once him selfe againe with the chalice all these in the Canon and Communion of the Masse besidâ— a number mo before he cometh to the Canon But the auncient Fathers and namely S. Austin were farre from such mysticall toyiâ—ges with the sacrament Pope Hildebrandes magiâ—e that so many crosâ—es though yet not so many as you are growne to now but the tradition of Pope Hildebrand that crossinges must come in by one or three or fiue still in an odde number after the rule of old sorcerers was a profounder rite of mystical blessinges then either S. Austin or other ancient Fathers vsed Hart. Pope Gregorie the seuenth named Hildebrand before his Popedome kept not those odde numbers for any magicall fansie though Benno charge him falsly with that diuelish art but to note a mysterie For he said that one or three or fiue crosses must therefore still be made because by one and three we signifie one God in trinitie by fiue the fiue partes of the passion of Christ Rainoldes As who say magicians had not the like mysteries in their odde numbers too And if Pope Hildebrand would haue had a circle made about the Priest to keepe the deuill from him while he is saying Masse there were a mysterie for that also to weete that it signifieth God who nether hath beginning nor ende Hart. Nay the circle is a ceremonie proper to coniurers and he would neuer haue admitted it But in that he kept an odde number alwaies in making of crosses vpon the oblation he did as he had learned in Rome where he was brought vp vnder ten of his predecessours And that which he lerned there was the tradition of the Apostles Rainoldes So his scholer
and of one soule They all are one body sanctified by one spirit through the Sacrament of one baptisme knit to Christ by one faith to themselues in one loue to serue togither one Lord in one hope and expectation of one eternall blisse and glory So that of this vnitie whereof Peters state and nature is capable apply which you list vnto the wordes of Leo either vnitie of will as you seeme to do or vnity of grace as others answere for it or vnitie of glory which Christ did pray for also and some will like that better none of these doe reach vnto that maiestie which Leos wordes aspire to by giuing him the felowship of the indiuisible vnitie Yet God forbid that any man should suspect of him that he meant vnitie either of nature with God or of person with Christ. He hath deserued better then to be thought so euill off But that which in trueth may be said for him is that his meaning was as other-where him selfe doth open it that Christ did impart his name of rocke and foundation of the church to Peter Now some mist of fansie daisled his eyes or els he would neuer haue saide thereupon that Christ receyued Peter into the felowship of the indiuisible vnitie and that in such preeminence as he receyued none but him chiefly sith hée imparted his greater names and titles of Iesus of Christ of the light of the world one of them to some the rest to all his seruants neither did he giue his name of rocke to Peter or of foundation to Peter onely as shall appeare after But if yet you see not that Leo did outreach in making Peter as it were a felow-head a partie-rocke and the halfe-foundation of the Church with Christ behold a farther felowship wherein he ioyneth Peter as mate and partner with God a felowship of power God hath giuen to Peter a great and a wonderfull felowship of his power and if he would haue any thing to be common vnto other princes with him he neuer gaue but by him whatsoeuer he gaue to others Out of all controuersie these wordes do lift vp Peter vnto the felowship of that glory of which God is so iealous that he hath protested he will not giue it to any other he hath giuen it to Christ who is one with himselfe God of God light of light if any man presume to ioyne a mortall creature whomsoeuer as companion vnto Christ in it he robbeth Christ of his honor of the onely mediator betwéene God and man And what doth he els who saith as Leo doth that S. Peters care shineth ouer Bishops in that their slaunderers are defaced that Peters merit and autoritie doth strengthen the writings of his seruant against heretikes that Peter doth not suffer their persons to be stained who labour for the catholike faith that the Popes decrees are made by the inspiration of God and S. Peter that it must be imputed vnto S. Peters workes and merits if any thing be gotten of God by dayly prayers that nothing passeth ouer vnto the chiefest of the Church no not vnto any man from God but by S. Peter Let euery Christian hart whome the zeale of God hath giuen any warmth vnto and his Spirit wisedome be iudge betwéene you and vs whether that to yeald such power such authoritie such souerainetie and rule of the Church of Christ to any Saint in heauen be not an empairing of the maiestie dominion and soueraine authoritie of the king of Saints the holy one of Israel It gréeueth me to speake so much against Leo whose learning I doe loue and reuerence his auncient yeares But the Auncient of dayes is more auncient then he must be had in greater reuerence who taught young Elihu to reproue his auncients euen holy Iob amongst them and to say of them I will not accept the person of any neither will I giue titles vnto man for I may not giue titles If I should doe it a litle he that made me would take mee away UUherefore I doe fréely without curtesie of titles and accepting of persons professe that I mislike those hawtie spéeches in Leo and I thinke that the mysterie of iniquitie so wrought through his ambitious aduancing Peter that of the egges which he cherished two of the most venemous cokcatrices were bred that euer poysoned the church of Christ the one the Popes supremacie vsurping Princely power ouer the church and common-weale with breach of faith to God and man the other the worshipping of Saintes wherin that honour is giuen to creatures which ought to be giuen to the Creator onely One example may shew them both euen Hildebrand called Gregorie the seuenth in his Popedome who depriuing Henrie the Emperour of his Empire and discharging his subiects of their othe of allegiance pronounced sentence with such an inuocation of Peter as a true Christian would trēble to haue heard vsed to any but to God Incline thine eares ô blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles heare me thy seruant whom thou hast brought vp from mine infancy and hast preserued to this day from the handes of the vnrighteous who hate and vexe me for my fayth in thee Thou canst beare me witnesse best and the holy mother of Christ and thy brother Paule partaker with thee of martyrdome that I haue vndertaken the gouernmēt of the Papacie vnwillingly Not that I thought it robbery to clime into thy See lawfully but I had rather liue in pilgrimage thē occupie thy roome for fame and glorie only I doe confesse and good cause why that the charge of the Christiā people was committed and the power of binding loosing granted vnto me not through my desertes but by thy grace Trusting therefore on this assuraunce for the honour and sauegard of thy holy church in the name of God almightie the father the sonne and the holy Ghost I throwe downe King Henry the sonne of Henry sometime Emperour who hath laide handes too boldly and rashly vpon thy church from his imperiall and kingly gouernment and I absolue al Christians subiect to the Empire frō that othe by the which they are wont to beare faith alleagiance vnto true Kings Doe you sée to what iniquitie their pride abusing Peters name and claiming al by him hath puffed them vp To what vsurping ouer Emperours To what dishonouring of the Almightie But of this we shall haue fitter occasion to conferre when we come to the question of the worship of Saintes For the other to returne to the point which we haue in hand the name of head in that sense as it is made a conduit of the giftes of God to powre them abroad into al the body is onely due and proper vnto the Mediatour betwéene God man the Apostle of our profession our Sauiour Iesus Christ. When the right of this title
is called into question euery knée must bow in heauen in earth and vnder the earth and yéeld it vnto him whom God hath set at his right hand aboue all powers and principalities Wherefore I say not if a maÌ„ if Leo whom hope of profit might blind taking himselfe for Peters heire but if an Angell from heauen do giue it vnto Peter shall I say with the Apostle Let him be accursed I will not take on me that sentence but this I will say the sinne is verie heinous How much more heinous that it is pretended in shew vnto Peter in déede by Peters name conueied to the Pope For as boldly as Leo applieth it to Peter so boldly doth a Cardinall apply it to the Pope And a Bishop venturing further then the Cardinall not content to vouch that the Pope is Melchisedec excelling the rest incoÌ„parably in priesthood affirmeth farther of him that he is head of all Bishops from whom they do grow as members grow from the head and of whose fulnesse they do all receiue Of Christ it is written that of his fulnesse we do all receiue that he is a Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedec that he is the head of whom al the bodie being coupled and knit togither by euerie ioint giuen to furnish it through the effectuall power in the measure of euerie part receiueth encrease of the bodie But to giue these priuiledges vnto the Pope that he is Melchisedec the head of al Bishops and of his fulnesse they doe all receiue O Lord in how miserable state was the Church when this did go for catholike doctrine Was not the prophecie then fulfilled of the man who should sit in the Temple of God as God Hart. I maruell what you meane to take vs vp so sharply as for a heinous matter that we call the Pope head of the church whereas you giue that title your selues to the Quéene whom it may lesse agrée to So one that preached to vs hâ—re not long agoe in the Tower-chappell did make a long talke to proue that Christ onely is head of the church and charged vs with blasphemy for saying that the Pope is head yet him selfe praying for the Quéenes maiesty did name her supreme head of the church of England wherin we smiled at his folly For if it be no blasphemy to call the Quéene head why should it bée blasphemy to call the Pope head Rainoldes We giue vnto her Highnes the title not of head but of Supreme gouernour and that vpon how iust grounde of Gods word and high commission from the highest it shall in due place be shewed if you will As for the Preacher whom you mention I had rather you would deale with me by publike monuments and writings of our church as I doe with you then by reports of priuate spéeches for perhaps you fansied more then he said perhaps he said so much that you were glad to smile it out with that fansie But if your report of his Sermon be true it is likely that he gaue the name of head to the Quéene in the same meaning that we doe the title of supreme gouernour which I will proue to be godly and he denied the Pope to be head in an other meaning in which that name belongeth vnto Christ alone condemning them of blasphemy who giue it him so And they who did smile hereat as at folly because they were Papists might if they were Painims smile at the scriptures too which doe giue the title of Gods vnto gouernors and yet condemne them who haue other Gods beside the Lord. For if it be no blasphemy to call the Magistrates Gods why should it bée blasphemy to call Mercurius and Iupiter Gods Is not this your reason But our doctrine as it is holy and true so it is plaine if men will rather learne it humbly as Christians then laugh at it as Lucians or as Iulians reuolt from it For wée teach that Christ is the head of the church as hee doth quicken it with his spirite as he is the light the health the life of it and is present alwayes to fill it with his blessinges and with his grace to gouerne it In the which respects because the Scripture giueth the name of head to Christ alone by an excellency thereof we so conclude that he is the onely head of the church For otherwise we know that in an other kinde and degrée of resemblance they may be called heads who haue any preeminence of place or gouernment ouer others As in the Hebrue text we reade the heads of the Leuites for the chéefe of them and the priest the head that is to say the chiefe Priest After the which sort I will not contend if you entitle Bishops heads of the churches as Athanasius doth and Gregorie when he had named our Sauiour Christ the head of the vniuersall church hée calleth Christes ministers as it were heads Paul Andrew Iohn heads of particular flocks yet members of the church all vnder one head Hart. You graunt in effect as much as I require For if either Bishoppe or Cardinall haue giuen that vnto the Pope which is due to Christ as he is head properlie wée maintaine them not UUe say that as pastors all who haue the charge to gouerne the church are heads after a sort that is improperly as I termed it so the Pope who is the chiefest of them all is the supreme head And in this sense you must take vs when we do entitle the Bishop of Rome the supreme head of the church Rainoldes I will take you so Howbeit for as much as the name of head hath sundrie significations in this kind of spéeches as the scripture sheweth God is the head of Christ Christ is the head of man man is the head of the woman the head of Syria Damascus the head of Damascus Retzin the king the head of the tribes of Israel and the heads of housholdes the eldest and the head of the people the formost and the head of the mountaines the highest and the head of the spices the chiefest in offenders the heads the principall and amongst Dauids captaines the heads the most excellent some of the which import a preeminence of other things not of power and they that do of power some import a greater power some a lesser I would vnderstand particularlie what power you giue vnto the Pope by calling him supreme head least afterward we vary about the meaning of it Hart. The power which we meane to him by this title is that the gouernement of the whole church of Christ throughout the world doth depend of him in him doth lye the power of iudging and determining all causes of faith of ruling councels as President and ratifying their decrées of ordering and confirming Bishops and pastors of deciding causes brought him by appeales from
mysticall spéeches wherein the scriptures giue the name of the thing to that which it betokneth as of the passeouer to the lambe and of the rocke to Christ. For I hope you wil not conclude of this shew that really Christ was a rocke or a lambe the passeouer really Hart. These spéeches are not like to that of Christes bodie in the Sacrament of the Eucharist For it is manifest that when the lambe was called the passeouer and Christ the rocke it was meant not really but figuratiuely that the rocke signified Christ the lambe the passeouer But it is not manifest in that of Christes bodie Rainoldes Whither it be manifest or no is not the question but whither the spéeches be like in shew of wordes the rocke was Christ this is my bodie Or to come néerer to your owne example and proofe of that point Christ saith of himselfe that he is true bread and my flesh is meate indeede and my blood is drinke indeede True and indeede these termes are more pregnant for a reall presence then that of Christes bodie Yet if you say that Christ is bread really and his flesh meate and his blood drinke you may as well say that he is really a vine and his disciples branches really and other such reall either blasphemies or follies Hart. Nay we doo confesse that many things in scripture are spoken and meant figuratiuely but neither all nor this concerning the Sacrament nor any thing els whereof the literall and proper sense hath not somewhat contrarie to God to religion and to Christian life As D. Allen saith that S. Austin teacheth Out of whom he citeth withall a woorthie sentence touching such as you are If the minde be preuented with an opinion of some errour whatsoeuer the scripture dooth affirme otherwise men thinke it to be spoken figuratiuely Rainoldes That sentence is good as S. Austin vttereth it But D. Allen vseth it ill against vs. The woorse because S. Austin sheweth straight vpon it in the same booke of the same point that to eate the flesh of Christ and drinke his blood was spoken not properly for so it were a wicked deede but figuratiuely flat against that error of the reall presence which hée is pretended to proue by D. Allen. But howsoeuer D. Allen deale in that the point which you graunt with him sufficeth me for proofe of that I saide For if many things in scripture are spoken and meant figuratiuely it followeth that the sense of scripture is against the shew of wordes in sundrie places and therfore that the shew of words sundrie times is against the truth Which sith you cannot sée in this Sacrament because of your preiudice of the reall presence I will bring an example of the sacrament of baptisme wherein you must needes sée it There were some of old who as we sprinckle children with water in baptizing of them so they vsed to print and stampe certaine marks vpon them with fire For the which vsage they alleaged the scripture I meane the wordes thereof that touching Iohn Baptist who saying of himselfe I baptize you with water addeth of our Sauiour He will baptize you with the holie Ghost and fire Now I put the matter to your owne iudgement whether they did better who baptized with fire or we who without it Hart. Who doubteth but we For they were deceiued who tooke the name of fire properly in that place where it is vsed figuratiuely to signifie the graces of the holie Ghost who lighteneth and purgeth the hartes of the faithfull They who did baptize in that sort were heretikes as Alphonsus sheweth Rainoldes Yet the shew of words dooth make more for thē Iohn baptized with water Christ baptizeth with fire Neither haue you here so much as that euasion which yet if you had were nothing to the purpose that it is manifest to be meant not properly but figuratiuely For there haue béene sundry churches and nations these many hundred yeares that vsed it and doo still induced all thereto by the shew of wordes as manifest to be meant not figuratiuely but properly in their iudgement And your reall presence hath not gone so far in the one Sacrament with this is my bodie as their firie markes haue gone in the other with the holie Ghost and fire Wherefore to returne to the point in questiō although it may séeme by the shew of words that our Sauiour promised the keyes of the kingdome of heauen to Peter onely yet sith he meant them to all the Apostles as I haue declared your claime will be a bare shew if all your proofe be shew of wordes And therefore as I said so I say againe that you must bring vs foorth some better euidence or els your title will be naught Hart. And I tell you againe that the euidence is good and hath not onely shew of words but sense too if it be rightly taken But we retaine not you to be our lawier to expound it Rainoldes I am not in hast to be retained of you But what mislike you in my expounding of it Hart. That which shall kéepe me from yelding thereunto For your exposition is a priuate exposition which we allow not of We allow onely of the churches exposition Rainoldes Then I perceiue the church shall be your lawier And what is I pray you the churches exposition Hart. That which all the Fathers make with one consent Rainoldes Which all the Fathers make We had néede to haue bodies like the bodies of Oakes and memories as strong as stéele to endure to reade and be sure to remember of euery exposition so much as may ascertaine vs that all the Fathers make it Hath any man liuing read them all Nay haue all the men liuing read them Nay can they shewe them Can they get them I had almost said can they name them Hart. Womeane of the Fathers which are extant commonly and may be had and read If many of them make it and the rest either gainsay it not or say nought of it we count it to bée made of all with one consent Rainoldes That count is euill cast For as in the writings of Fathers which we haue some one expoundeth places of Scripture oftentimes otherwise then all the rest a thing notorious and confessed so it is likely that in those which we haue not some places were otherwise expounded thē they be in those which we haue Yet I will not deny but you had reason so to count For else your lawier had béene dumbe and could not haue spoken a word for his client But if this be your rule of the churches exposition then I could haue made mine exposition the churches with a wet finger if I would haue stuffed it with the names of Fathers For my words of Peter that he alone made answere for all the Apostles receiued the keyes togither with them all are the wordes of S. Austin though I did