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A82002 A sober and temperate discourse, concerning the interest of words in prayer, the just antiquity and pedigree of liturgies, or forms of prayer in churches : with a view of the state of the church, when they were first composed, or imposed. Together with a discovery of the weakness of the grounds upon which they were first brought in, or upon which Bishop Gawden hath lately discoursed, the necessity of a liturgie, or the inconveniency of altering the English liturgie, the utility of church musick, and the lawfulness of ceremonies : in which are mixed reasons justifying those godly ministers, who forbear the use of the Common-prayer, against the late out-cryes of the said bishop. / By H.D. M.A. H. D. (Henry Dawbeny); Collinges, John, 1623-1690, attributed name. 1661 (1661) Wing D449; Thomason E1086_14; ESTC R208152 100,305 119

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means who first translated the Service-Book into English c. there are so many thousand Ministers to be found now in England who are able to speak unto God before people as well and orderly as if they did read those Forms Is it not so to the Schoolmaster who by dictating Forms of Theams and Epistles and Orations teacheth his Boyes to make as good and better than his were in 9 or 10 years time Surely it were rather a reproach to the Schoolmaster so to inure his Boyes to Forms that when they are Masters of Art they must still have Forms dictated to them without which they can do nothing XVI Nor would the alteration of this Lyturgy and not imposing any blemish the Judgment of our whole Church our Kings Princes Parliaments c. Their Judgment was excellent as to those times In King Edward his time the Clergy were generally Popish and had they been left to Liberty would certainly have used the Mass or else such persons as were of mean parts most of them Anglice docti such as the necessity of those times required because better could not be had In Qu. Elizabeths time the state of the Nation at least in the beginning of her Reign was little better witness the Record which Archbishop Parker left and is yet to be seen in the Library of Corpus Christi Colledge in Cambridge of all the Ministers in his Province and their several abilities where are 20 Anglice docti such as understood no Latine for one that hath a Character for any Learning see upon him this man was Archbishop in the Second year of Qu. Elizabeth Undoubtedly it was an Act of rare Judgment for the Parliament then to impose Forms of Prayer nor was it likely that suddenly the whole Nation would be reformed so well that with any security or prudence the Ministers could be left at liberty Since the time of Qu. Elizabeth no Parliament medled with it King James indeed reformed it in part and declared his Judgment for it King Charles of Glorious Memory in his Meditation upon the Lyturgy though indeed he judgeth an imposed Lyturgy lawful and this as to the main very good yet declareth his readiness to have consented to amend what upon free and publick advice might seem to sober men inconvenient as to matter or manner by which it appears that his Majesty judged incapable of amendment both as to Matter and Manner XVII But it is a great Riddle to us how the amending of the Lyturgy and not imposing any universally should damp and discourage the zeal of the greatest and chiefest part of the Nation who find much pleasure and profit in the use of it For if it be still left at liberty to them if they please to use the old Forms how is their Zeal damped or discouraged by the liberty which others take It is a fiery Zeal in men certainly that must needs have all others to be of their humour as to the use of Forms of words in Prayer If by zeal the Bishop means the Fury of people against those who durst not use those Forms the God of Heaven more damp and discourage that zeal which we are sure is not according to knowledge If the greatest and chiefest part of the Nation be so zealous in this case doubtless if they be left to liberty people will generally fill in with those Ministers that do use it and there will be an ingenuous conformity which is alwaies best for a little experience will convince the furious ones of this age that Religion is a thing that must instillari not intrudi as Beza somtimes said a thing to be gently instilled and commended not bluntly and forcibly intruded and compelled Our Bishops in this point may give counsel effectual to the filling of Goals undoing of many thousands and procuring their cries unto God against them but never effectual to accomplish their designs if indeed their designs be to bring all to an uniformity in this thing But they very well know that if it be left to liberty to Ministers to use or not use the Lyturgy that experience will quickly make it appear that the greater part of more knowing and zealous people are not so enamoured upon it as they proclaim them to the world to be XVIII In the next place he tels us The Reformed part of Religion cannot be well preserved in England without it to any flourishing and uniform estate Immediatly before he told us Religion could not any where be planted without a Lyturgy Both of them Propositions of equal truth If Religion could not be planted without a Common Prayer-Book it is a wonder that the Apostles and Pastors of the Primitive Churches missed this only means For what Lyturgy was ever heard of in the Church for 400 years after Christ the great planting time if the Reformation of Religion cannot be preserved without a Lyturgy imposed or this Lyturgy alas for the Churches of God in Scotland Holland France Genevah If they have a Lyturgy how unlike is it to this Nor is it imposed nor the use of it by penalties compelled yet blessed be God the Reformation in those Churches is not less perfect than ours not less firmly preserved Let their Confessions of Faith be read or their printed Books against the Papists be read and compared with ours and let all judge What singular thing then is there in the Constitution of men and women in England that Religion in its Reformed part cannot subsist without the authoritative imposing of a Lyturgy taken out of the Roman Missal as to the far greater part Surely none will say it is because the Reformed Party of England have a more reverend opinion of Pope Gregory and the present Church of Rome than the Reformed Party in other Nations hath This indeed were a shameful reproach to the Church of England Let her Enemies lay it to her charge but let her true Sons spend their time in covering such nakedness VVe must know the Bishop's Reasons before we can believe any truth in this especially when we know that those Ministers and people who are most zealous against Popery are most averse to this Lyturgy XIX The Bishop instanceth in the matter of the Sacrament telling us Popery can never come in while the Form of Consecration prescribed in the Book of Common Prayer which is most ancient and excellent is used We must ingenuously confess that some Forms of Prayer prescribed to be read at the administration of the Lords Supper are very good and pious but we are much of his mind who said Nihil ego puto a quovis praescriptum tam exacte quin addi aliquid possit aut perfectius reddi a quovis qui ministerio dignus Altare Damasc P. 6 13. ad docendum vel movendum affectus nam facile est addere inventis praescriptis licet forte nihil exactius dari posset tamen languet oratio ubi non est verborum varietas nec prorumpunt