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A06347 An excellent and plaine discourse of the church, whereby the godlie may knowe and discerne the true Church, from the Romish Church, and all other false and counterfet churches, as well for matters of doctrine, as discipline, &c. Written in Frenche by M. Bartrand de Loque, a godlie minister of Dolphenine. And faithfully translated into English, by M.T.W. Seene and allowed; Traité de l'eglise. English Loque, Bertrand de.; T. W. (Thomas Wilcox), 1549?-1608. 1582 (1582) STC 16813; ESTC S103377 172,896 422

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any hand away with or abide his presence as wee may see it by those that when hee was minded to publishe and to giue his lawe the people thēselues beeing astonished with his greatnes maiestie said vnto Moses Exod. 20.16 Deut. 5.29.29 Talke thou with vs we will heare But let not the Lord talk with vs lest we die And God accepting this their request saide vnto Moses I haue hearde the woordes of the voyce of this people which they haue spoken vnto thee they haue wel said al that they haue spokē Oh that there were suche a heart in them to feare mee and to keep al my cōmandements alway that it might goe well with them and with their children for euer Go say vnto them return into your tents but stand thou heere with me I wil tell thee all the commandements the ordinances Deut. 5.30.31 the lawes which thou shalt teach them that they may doe them c. Wherefore God yelded vnto this people their request to wit that they might bee taught by the ministerie of Moses And sithence that time it was yet his good pleasure to haue continued and that vnto the ende this manner of instructing and teaching his Church by the ministerie of men which order men them selues did require and choose in so much that when God himselfe sent Iesus Christe his sonne Mark 1.38 Heb. 2.16 to preache the Gospell hee appointed him to take vpon him not the nature of Angels but the seede of Abraham that he might be like vnto vs in all thinges yet without sinne And Christe himselfe ascending to heauen committed vnto his Apostles who were men as we the office and charge to teache vs. Act. 14.15 And since that time this order hath continued and is common and ordinarie in the Churche and can not bee separated from the Church to wit that God doth teache vs by the ministerie of men as by his instruments which are most profitable Act. 8.27 c. familiar and easie to vs. The Eunuch of Candace Queene of the Ethiopians tead in his chariot the holy scriptures and no doubt the Lorde coulde very well haue instructed him in the mysteries of faith by the secrete vertue and power of his holy spirite but yet hee delighted rather to haue it done by the ministerie of Phillip and liked better therof Act. 10.1.2 c. Cornelius the Centurion to the ende he might bee more fully instructed in the knowledge of the Gospel was sent backe as it were from the Angell to Saint Peter Hee shall tell thee sayth the Angell what thou oughtest to doe Yea Saint Paule himselfe although that the Lord had spoken vnto him with his owne mouth was yet notwithstanding sent backe as it were to Ananias Act. 9.3.4 c. that he might be instructed and receiue the holy Ghoste and bee baptised Wherefore they that doe cast from them or disallow the ministerie of the Church hanging vpon and loking for angelicall and diuine reuelations to instruct them doe not onely deceiue themselues but also violate and breake the order which God hath established in his Church for our saluation Now there remaineth to see and knowe howe much wee ought to deferre and giue to the ministerie for if they bee deceiued which despise it and do not their duetie in that behalfe which they ought they are deceiued also which attribute or giue ouer muche vnto it Wherefore wee say that we ought not to giue to it either more or lesse than that which belongeth thereto that as it is good reason that the authoritie and credite thereof should bee reserued vnto it selfe safe and sounde so wee ought to take good heede of this that wee pull not from God the honour which is due vnto him For this purpose and point wee must diligently obserue and marke this distinction Sometimes man is compared with God when the minister is mentioned or spoken of and then it is said that hee is not able to doe any thing at all and that his labour or worke is altogether vnprofitable As when Saint Paul saith 1. Cor. 3.7 Neither is he that planteth any thing neither is he that watereth but God that giueth the increase For what can man haue in himself if he would enter into this to parte or deuide a matter betweene God and himselfe we must therefore take heede of this not so much as once to thinke that the vertue and power of the holy Ghoste shoulde be tied and bound to the ministerie of men as though without it god could not work in mens harts euen as shall please himselfe as we see that they of the Romishe Church suppose and thinke as appeareth in this that they spare not to affirme that in childe die without baptisme administred by man it cannot bee saued and on the other side that they which receiue the outwarde signes from the ministers hands receiue by and by the grace of God which is tyed to those signes But god saith by his prophets That it belongeth to him Iere. 31. 33. Ezech. 11. 19 Iere. 32.40 Isai 43.25 to write his lawe in mens harts to take away from them their stonie harts and to giue them heartes of fleshe to renue within them a new spirite to put his feare in their heartes that they should not departe from Shortly That it is he alone Luk. 5.21 to whom it belongeth to pardon sinnes and to saue And we heare that which Saint Paule saith That it appertaineth to GOD 1 Cor. 3.7 to giue the increase to that which the ministers plant water And Iesus Christ Ioh. 6.44 65 That none can come vnto him except his father drawe him Sometimes also the scripture speaketh of man without comparing God and him together and then in respect that God vseth his ministerie to accomplishe his owne worke by that is attributed to him which is proper and peculiar to God As when it is saide 1. Cor. 3. that the ministers plant and builde Churches 1. Cor. 3.6 Philemon 10 Luk. 1.16 Ioh. 20. 23. Iude. 1.23 that they beget men and win them to God that they turne mens hearts that they remit and retaine sinnes that they saue All this must bee vnderstoode in that they are the instruments and as it were the hand of God to bring all these thinges to passe by for then the question is not of that whiche man doeth by his owne vertue and power but of that whiche God worketh by the hande and ministerie of man Wherefore GOD is alwayes the efficient or working cause of our saluation and man together with the word of God which he propoundeth and preacheth vnto vs is nothing els but the instrument and minister wherewith God serueth himselfe or whiche hee vseth for the perfourmaunce of so excellent a worke Whereupon it followeth that they whiche despise and reiect the ministerie which God hath ordained doe despise and reiect God himselfe For this cause
of the Romish Churche are they condemned I aunswere that wee leaue the iudgement thereof vnto GOD for it belongeth not to vs to determine and iudge of that which is hidden from vs and which indeede passeth our knowledge and calling It is very true that the holy Scripture pronounceth Ioh. 3.18.36 that they whiche die without the faith of Christ are damned and we cannot but say amen and giue our consent to this Neither serueth it to any purpose to alleadge ignoraunce and to say that it excuseth the sinner before GOD For the scripture is plaine and manifest therein The seruant saith Iesus Christe that knew his masters wil Luke 12.47 48. prepared not him selfe neither did according to his will shall bee beaten with many stripes But he that knewe it not and yet did commit thinges worthie of stripes shall bee beaten with fewe stripes Also Math. 5.14 If the blinde lead the blinde they shall fall both into the ditche Saint Paule saith also As many as haue sinned without the lawe Rom. 2. 12. 2. Thes 1.6 shall perishe also without the law and as many as haue sinned within the law shal be iudged by the law And againe it is a righteous thing with God to recompence tribulation to them that trouble you and to you which are troubled rest and deliuerance with vs when the Lorde Iesus shall shewe himselfe from heauen with his mightie Angels in flaming fire rēdring vengeance vnto them that doe not knowe God and which obey not vnto the Gospell of our Lorde Iesus Christ which shal be punished with euerlasting destruction c. These places doe openly enough declare what is the ende of those that die without faith although they bee ignorant for their ignorance cannot excuse them nor serue them for a cloake or couering to absolue and set them free from the iudgement of God For confirmation and proofe whereof wee may alleadge also and put downe that which is written in Leuiticus Leui. 4.2 touching the offering commaunded by God for the sins whiche were committed through ignorance Loe what wee haue to say for one point But to that which remaineth touching our fathers and predecessours God might well shewe mercy vpon them at the ende of their dayes making himselfe knowne vnto them by the secret vertue and power of his holy spirite and putting it into their harts to beleeue in Iesus Christ his sonne that so they might bee saued For God is almightie to saue his owne people yea without vsing any of these meanes which he is accustomed commonly and ordinarily to vse to plant faith in vs and to ingraue it in our hartes to our owne saluation And this is Saint Cyprian his answere Cypri lib. 2. epist 3 touching those that die in some false opinions If some one of our predecessours saith hee either by ignorance or through simplicitie hath not kept and held that which the Lorde hath taught vs to doe by his example and authoritie the mercy of the Lorde may pardon him But wee cannot helpe the same beeing admonished and instructed by him Behold what Saint Cyprian pronounceth herein It is true that he speaketh properly touching the matter of the holy supper but nothing letteth but that wee may applie his speech generally to the matter of al the other articles of the faith The IX CHAP. Of the degrees of Ministers in the Churche where mention is made of the order of the popish Clergie and of the offices and duties of true pastors VVE haue seene and heard heretofore Mat. 9.38 that it apperteineth vnto the Lord of the haruest to sende foorth workemen in to his haruest For it belongeth not to any what giftes soeuer he hath receiued frō the Lorde to thrust himselfe into the work of the ministerie vnlesse he be lawfully called thereto Now the Apostle Saint Paule writing to the Ephesians Ephe. 4.11 sheweth vs what workemen the Lorde hath sent into his haruest that is to say Apostles prophets Euangelistes pastours and doctours Apostles Touching the Apostles they were chosen immediatly from Christe and their office was to sowe and spreade the Gospell abroad throughout all the worlde neither had any one of thē any limits or borders set them or some certaine Churches appointed to them Mat. 28.19 Mat. 10.2 Gal. 2. ● but Christe would that in euerie part or place where so euer they came they should doe their message before all peoples and nations Such were the twelue named in the Gospell to whome Saint paule was added who was specially appointed to beare the name of Christe among the Gentiles Nowe because this degree of the Apostles was instituted and ordained by God for the establishing of churches those churches beeing planted and established this name of Apostle ought not any more to bee vsed among the ministers as to be giuen and communicated to them And yet we reade that sometime it is taken generally in the scripture for a Pastor and preacher of the Gospell As Epaphroditus is called the Apostle of the Philippians Barnabas is named an Apostle Philip. 2.25 Act. 14.14 Act. 14. Prophetes are distinguished into two sortes or o ders Prophetes Some were vnder the olde Testament and in that time who being instructed and taught by a speciall reuelation from God did foretell things to come The other were in the newe Testament who in the first place had an excellent gift and singular grace to interprete the Scripture 1. Cor. 11.4 also they were suche as were indued 1. Cor. 14. 1. c. with great wisedome and readinesse wel to prouide for the necessitie of the Church and to speake properly they were as interpreters of the will of God In this ranke or order were comprehended the Prophetes that had the gift to vnderstand foresee and reueale thinges to come Act. 11.28 such a one was Agabbs who by the holy Ghoste foretolde that a great famine should fall throughout all the worlde whiche also came to passe in the Emperour Claudius Caesars dayes also that Saint Paule should be bound at Ierusalem Act. 21.10 c. Act. 13.1 There is mention made also in the thirteenth of the Actes of certaine Prophetes of the Churche of Antioche to wit Barnabas and Simeon who was called Niger and Lucius of Cyrene and Manahen which had been brought vp with Herode the Tetrarch and Saul And in the one and twentie mention is made of Phillips foure daughters which did prophesie Act. 21.9 These degrees or this office of Prophetes was ordained by God to indure but for a time only as the Apostles Euangelists Euangelistes generally are those whiche performe the office of an Euangelist that is to say which preache the Gospell Sometimes also this name Euangelist is referred to those foure who haue written the storie of the Gospell that is to say S. Matthew S. Marke S. Luke and S. Iohn But in this order of the Church the question is