A LATE DIALOGUE BETWIXT A CIVILIAN and a Divine concerning the present condition of the Church of ENGLAND In which among other particulars these following are especially spoken of 1 The sinne and danger of delaying Reformation 2 That there is a certain form of Church-Government Jure Divino 3 That there was an Ecclesiasticall Excommunication among the Jews 4 That Excommunication is an Ordinance in the New Testament 5 Concerning the Toleration of all Sects and Heresies 6 Some Answer to a late Book come from Oxford 1 Thes. 5.21 Prove all things hold fast that which is good Published by Authority LONDON Printed for Robert Bostock dwelling in Pauls Church-yard at the Signe of the Kings Head 1644. A LATE DIALOGVE Betwixt a Civilian and a Divine concerning the present condition of the CHURCH of ENGLAND c. Divine GOOD Morrow to you good Sir Civilian I am glad to see you Sir will you take a walk with me this morning and tell me what good newes yee have heard for I have not yet been in Westminster Hall the place most infected with the Athenian disease Divine I can tell you no newes at this time Civilian You look as you were not well pleased to day pray you tell me have you heard any bad newes from the North or from the West Divine None truly but this I confesse that though I cannot but allow those who from their affection to the Cause are inquisitive of newes from severall quarters and labour to make some good use of what they heare yet for mine own part one thing sticks with me which suffereth me not either to be so curious in seeking or so joviall in hearing newes as many others are The truth is I am more afraid and apprehensive of our owne then of our enemies victories Civilian This is a most strange paradox what can you mean by it I hope you are not turned malignant Divine If it be Paradoxall yet I am sure it is Orthodoxall I remember judicious Calvin said the same of the German warres in his time There is more danger said he like to come by our owne then by our enemies victory I desire his words may bee well observed and applyed I dare say God is more gracious to us in continuing this war of ours then if he should answer our desires in putting an end to it presently When God blesseth our forces with any great successe nay when hee doth but draw back his afflicting hand a little and giveth us some lightning of our eyes O how doe we by and by forget God and slight both Huâ—iliation and Reformation * Then Iesurum forsook God which made him and lightly esteemed the rock of his â—alvation * But when he slew them then they sought him and returned and inquired after God early There were never serious and deep thoughts either in the Parliament or in the Kingdome of fasting and praying of covenanting with God of purging our hearts our lives our families of reforming the Church according to the word of building the Temple according to the patterne of caring for the things of Jesus Christ more then for their own things never but when we felt Gods hand smart and heavy upon us And if now the sword of the Lord should be still and England a quiet habitation every man sitting under his own vine and under his owne figtree I verily believe our great State-Physitians should heale the wound of the daughter of Sion slightly and daube the wall with untempered morter and the Church of God in this Kingdome should have dry breasts and a miscarrying wombe instead of bringing forth the manchild of Reformation now sticking in the birth but having no strength to come forth till some new pains and pangs quicken and carry through the work Civilian I must confesse the Reformation of our selves and our families hath been and is still too much neglected But for Nationall and Church-Reformation I doe not know what can be more done then is done considering our intestine divisions among our selves which as Mr. Fox observeth was the undoing of the Church and of Religion in King Edwards dayes and is like to prove the bane of Religion and Reformation in our dayes Ita dum singuli pugnant universi vincuntur as Tacitus speaketh of the ancient Brittish Divine Sir I desire that first of all this may be laid downe as a sure Principle that the purity and liberty of the Gospel and of the Ordinances of Jesus Christ is to bee more esteemed of and sought after then all or any thing in this world That it is said as well to States and Parliaments as to particular persons Seek yee first the Kingdome of God and the righteousnesse thereof and all these things shall be added unto you The setling of Religion is to be looked upon as causall not as consequent to the peace and prosperity of the Kingdom Doe but prove the Lord now herewith and see if he will not appoint salvation for walls and bâ—â—â—marks if he will not honour those that honour him if he will not be zealous for those that are zealous for him The Trojans believed that Troy could not be taken except their idoll Palladium were taken away from them which being once taken away by Vlysses and Diomedes they observed that shortly thereafter their Town was destroyed Arnoâ—ius tells us that when the Iâ—age of Iupiter was throwne down in the Capitoll and was lying upon the ground the heathenish Soâ—th-savers did foretell sad and heavy things which should never be removed till Iupiter were set in his owne place whicâ— iâ— it were no done that they did in vain hope for the preservation of the lawes or the healing of their homebred divisions Shall those Pagans rise up in judgement against us Christians who doe so overly and slightly goe about the building of the house of God and the erecting of the throne of Jesus Christ who care for something else more then for his Church and Kingdome his glory and his ordinances who seek our owne things not the things which are Jesus Christs Civilian No man can say against this that true Religion is the Alpha and Omega of a Kingdomes happinesse and that it is their surest foundation and strongest bullwark of Peace Liberties and Lawes And I trust the Parliament will ever be most tender and carefull of it and put it in its own place as they have frequently professed in their Declarations and really manifested in calling and keeping together an Assembly of learned and pious Divâ—nes the results of whose debates and consultations tâ—ey will take to their consideration in due time for setling the government of the Church and the worship of God Divine If you would really and carefully indeavour to doe what you professe to intend I have no more to say but that the successe is to be committed to God you having done your duty But assuredly the practises doe not answer to the professions nor
when the sad newes of the dispersion of the Army in the West were brought to them And if they shall inquire at God as Iob did Show mee wherefore thou contendest with me I doubt not but they shall heare the voice of his servants the voice of his rods and the voice of their owne Consciences telling them that he hath somewhat against them that hee healeth not the breaches of the land because they heal not the breach of the daughter of Sion that hee makes the successe of the warre to halt because they halt betwixt two or rather many opinions Civilian I doe fully agree with you if all this be understood of the fundamentals of Faith and Religion and the power of godlinesse But if so be you meane of the government and discipline of the Church then you make Mountaines of mole-hills and put Hercules shâ—e upon an infants foot whiles you hold that God is not pleased and that the Kingdome cannot be blessed unlesse the order and discipline of the Church bee established so and so as you would have it I doe not acknowledge either the Episcopall way or the Presbiteriall or the Câ—ngregationall to be Iure divino But that all things of that kind are left in such an indifferency that they may bee moulded and fashioned diversly according to the different formes and constitutions of Common-wealths and altered as much and as often as each State shall find most convenient for it selfe If you can convince me that I am in an error go to let me heare your reasons Divine I shall indeavour by Gods assistance to satisfie you But first of all let me use this humble liberty with you once to put you in mind of the Apostles premonition Let no man deceive himselfe if any man among you seem to be wise in this world let him become a foole that hee may bee wise Hee that most denieth his owne naturall judgement in supernaturall verities and is not conformed to this world but is transformed by the renewing of his mind shall best prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God Absque te sapere est desipere O Lord faith Augustine to be wise without thee is to be mad Do not therefore measure Scripturall truths by Politicall principles but contrariwise and let your judgement be unbyassed and unprejudiced when light is set before you And whereas it seemeth to you a veniall thing if not altogether lawfull to take a latitude in all such things as are not substantiall though Scripturall truths and may you conceive admit a variation upon State-considerations Remember I beseech you that it is the pleasure of God to take notice of yea purposely to try our obedience Etiam in minimis For hee that is faithfull in that which is least is faithfull also in much and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much How was the Lord offended with Ieroboams setting up of Altars at Dan and Bethel yea even with the Kings of Iudah for not taking away the high places though Ieroboam migh have pleaded that it was extreamly dangerous in regard of the warre betwixt him and Rehoboam that his subjects should goe up to Ierusalem to sacrifice unto the Lord there And the Kings of Iudah might plead that it was too burthensome for all the people to be tyed to go to Ierusalem with their Sacrifices that God would have mercy and not sacrifice especially considering that they held the foundation and sacrificed to the Lord only And this variation from the law of Moses being in no substantiall thing but only in the circumstance of place In like manner Ieroboam thought not fit to have the feast of Tabernacles upon the fifteenth day of the seventh moneth but upon the fifteenth day of the eight moneth when the fruits of the earth were more fully gathered in he would observe the feast according to the law in all the substantialls but would not bee tyed to the circumstance of time But God doth utterly reject his worship because Ieroboam had devised it of his owne heart If therefore the will of Jesus Christ can be made to appear from his word even concerning the form of Church-government and Discipline and ceremonies of worship that thus and thus he would have us to do will you then quarrell at these things because stamped with a Iâ— divinum Will you draw out your neck from this yoke because it is Christs yoke Will you submit and obey because these things are ordinances of Parliament and you will not submit because they are ordinances of Christ Civilian You say right if you can make it appeare that Jesus Christ hath revealed his will and Commandements not only concerning faith and manners but how he would have his Church governed and ordered Now this is it which you have yet to prove Divine For that I shall desire you to consider that Jesus Christ is the only Head and King of his Church that the government of his Church is a part of his Kingly office that the Government is committed into his hand and the key of the house of David is laid upon his shoulder that the Father hath set him as a King upon his holy hill of Zion to raign over the house of Iacob for ever and of his Kingdom there shall be no end As therefore he hath fully and faithfully executed his Priestly office in making attonement for our sins by the sacrifice of himselfe and still making intercession in heaven for us And his Propheticall office in revealing the whole Counsell of God and teaching his people by his word and spirit what he would have them to do So he hath no lesse fully faithfully executed his Kingly office and Legislative power in providing by his Statutes and Ordinances for all the necessities of his Church and appointing by whom and after what manner he will have his house governed what spirituall Courts and Judicatories hee would have erected how he would have them constituted by what rules to proceed how to censure offences It is an old observation they are the best lawes which leave least to the power of the Judge to doe as he list It were a bad administration of the supreame power in any Kingdom if no certaine kinds of subordinate officers nor no certain kind of government were appointed but all this left to the liberty of every Country or City Now Jesus Christ is more wiâ—e and provident and faithfull in the government of his whole Church then ever King or Parliament was in the government of an earthly Kingdome and hath therefore appointed Officers Courts Censures and Lawes for the right ordering thereof and hath not left these things to bee determined by thâ—â— or that State at their pleasure I should wish you and all that are of your mind to study better the Kingly office and prerogative Royall of Jesus Christ Civilian I conceive the Kingly office of Christ to consist in
against Brother and that before the unbeleavers Now therefore there is utterly a fault amongst you Civilian Can you shew any example or practice of such an Excommunication in the New Testament for that place 1 Cor. 5.5 I doubt shall not prove there being not only great Authors but great reasons for another Exposition as Moâ—liâ—s sheweth in his Vâ—tes l. 2. tc 11. namely that this delivering to Sathan was for bodily afflictions and torments which was not in the power of ordinary Ministers to doe but was a Prerogative of the Apostles Divine If you will I can debate that with you both from that very Text and from other reasons that this delivering to Sathan was an act not of the Apostle alone but of the Presbytery of Corinth whereby is meant Excommunication which is a cutting off from the Fellowship of the Church and so coâ—sequâ—ntly â— delivering to Sathan who reignes without the Church and holdeth captive at his pleasure the children of disobedience Or if you will I can take a shorter course with you For whatsoever may be the meaning of that phrase tradere Satana it is most plaine that Excommunication is in that Chapter vers. 6 7. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lumpe purge out therefore the old leaven verse 11. If any man that is called a Brother be a fornicatour c. with suâ—h an one no noâ— to â—â—â—e vers. 12. doe not ye â—udge them that are within vers. 13. Therefore put away from among your selves that wicked person 2 Cor. 2.6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment or censure inflicted by many But I suppose I shall not need to prove Church-censures and Excommunication in the Church of Câ—rinâ—h which Moulins himself doth fully acknowledge to be held forth in that same place Civilian I will thinke further upon these things Devine You may doe so and withall read what 〈◊〉 hath written against Erastus and Walaâ—â— against Witeâ—â—ogardus Civilian But tell me now your opinion of another matter and that is concerning liberty of Conscience and toleration of Hereticks and Seâ—taries for which there are so many bookes written of late and so few against iâ— I doe not know what you will pronounce of it from the Principles of your Profession but I beleeve that as in Germany France Holland Poland yea under the Turkish Tyranny contrary religions and opposite professions and practises have been and are tolerated upon State-principles so it shall be Englands unhappinesse though not to chose yet to be necessitated to grant such a tolleration for avoiding a rupture in the Kingdome and for preserving an Union against the common Enenmy Divine This Question about the Toleration of those whose way is different from the common rule which shall be established must be both stated and resolved cum â—rano salis We must remember to distinguish personâ— from Corporations or Churches and both these from errors Againe to distinguish persons whâ—ther godly and gratious or loose and libertin whether moderate and peaceable or â—actious and turbulent whether such as have deserved well oâ— the publike or such as have done either no service or a disservice To distinguish Corporation whether the Quâ—stion be of such onely as have a present existence or of all who shall joyne to such a way afterward To distinguish errâ—rs whether Practicall or Doctrinall onelâ— whether fundamentall or circafundamentall or neither of the two To distinguish Toleration whether absolute or Hypotheticall and conditionall whether anywhere or in somâ— few certaine places onely whether indifinite and generall or limited and bounded and if bounded how far and how much Whether â—uch Toleration as may stand with the solemne league and Covenant or such as is inconsistent therewith whether such as is profitable for the publike peace or such as is apparently destructive thereto These and the like particulars I doe not intend to fall upon at this instant Only this I say that to open a wide doore and to grant an unbounded liberty unto all sort of Hereticks and Sectâ—ries which is the thing that the good Samaritan and Iohn the Baptist the blood Tenent and others of that kind do plead for as it is inconsistent with the solemne league and Covenant of the three Kingdomes by which we are obliged to endeavour the extirpation of Popery Prelacie Superstition Heresie and Schismâ— least we partake in other mens sinnes and thereby be in danger to receive of their plagues So it is in the owne nature of it an error so pernicious so abominable so monstâ—ous that it maketh all learned men to stand amazed and taken with horrour in so much that they can not at first gather their thoughts to put pen to paper against it I know this liberty and Toleration was maintained by the Donatists of old and by the Socinians Arminians and Anabaptists of late but it hath beene constantly opposed by all that were sound and orthodoxe both Ancient and Moderne who have asserted the lawfull use of a coercive poweâ— against those things whereby though under pretence of conscience God is openly dishonoured soules ensnared and destroyed faith or piety subverted and overthrowne and further the compelling of the outward man though not to the practise of things indifferent which compulsion I doe not allow yet to the practise of necessary duties and to the externall use of meanes and ordinances by which through the blessing of God mens hearts and consciences may be savingly affected and wrought upon And I beseech you what else meaneth Asa's Covenant That whosoever would not seeke the Lord God of Israel should be put to death whether small or great whether man or woman And what else meaneth Iosiahs Covenant whereof it is said he caused all that were present in Ierusalem and Benjamin to stand to it And what else is that in Ezra that whosoever would not come to Ierusalem to make a Covenant and to put away the strange wives all his substance should be forfeited and himselfe separated from the Congregation of those that had beene carried away that is Excommunicated And what else is that other act of Iosiah in putting downe the Priests of the high Places And what say you to the Law of stoning those who did intice the people to turne out of the way wherein the Lord commanded them to walke saying Let us goe after other Gods and serve them Civilian I would rather heare some Arguments from the New Testament for I doubt these from the Old Testament shall be more subject to exception Divine To me it is plaine that these things doe as much concerne us now as the Jewes of old which whosoever denieth must shew that either we may take no rules nor patternes from the Old Testament or that the foresaid Lawes and practises were not intended by the holy Ghost to binde us as other things in the Old Testament doe but were ceremoniall and typicall intended to bind the Jewes onely Mr. Williams in