of Dauid Who though the eternall punishment due to the guilt of his sinns was for giuen yet was punished temporally by the death of his Sonne For these are the words in Scripture after his sinne was forgiuen Because thou hast caused the name of God to be blasphemed the Child that is borne to thâ—e shall dye In lyke sort Dauids sinne in numberring his People being remitted him yet was he put to chuse for his temporall punishmeÌ„t and satisfaction either Warre Famine or Pestilence Now the guilt of eternall damnation for sinne being remitted there remaineth a temporall punishment And this teÌ„porall punishment thus reserued is the sole subiect of Indulgences Therefore an Indulgence as heare the word is taken is a mercifull relaxation or remission of temporall punishment due for sinne by applying the super abundant satisfaction of Christ after the sinne it selfe and guilt of eternall damnation due to mortall sinne is remitted by the Sacrament of Confession or for want thereof by perfect Contrition The ground and foundation of Indulgencs is cheifly the treasury and satisfaction of Christs death which is of that infinity greate valew an pryce seeing euery drop of his bloud was able to redeeme a thousands Worlds in regard of his Diuinity being vnited to his Humanity as that it can ueuer be exhausted For we reade that Christ dyed for all Also that Christ is apropitiation for our sinns and not for our sinns only but for the Sinns of the whole World But it is certaine that the pryce of Christs death was not actually applyed to all Men hitherto liuing since then it would follow that all Men which hitherto haue liued should haue bene saued Therefore it followeth that theare yet remayneth a greate abundance of the pryce of Christ passion if it were not in finite as indeede it is to be applyed and still will remaine The dispenser of this treasury of the Church is the Heade of Christs Church who hath power to apply this treasury for the absoluing of Men from their temporall punishment due to their Sinns allready remitted by Sacramentall Confession according to the authority geuen him in those words Whatsoeuer thou losest vpon earth shal be losed in Heauen with which place accord other places of the Euangelists Now these words being generall they do extend as well to the punishment due for sinne as to the sinne itselfe seing the punishment is as remissible as the Sinne And as to the one are applyed Christs Meritts so to the other Christs â—atisfactions The Cause why any Indulgence is granted to any Man ought to be iust and reasonable or otherwyse the Indulgence granted is of no valew for seing the Pope is not Lord of this spirituall treasure of the Church but only the distributer thereof therefore this distribution he cannot make without a iust reasonable and lawfull Cause The Partie receauing the benefit of an Indulgence ought at the tyme of receauing it to be in state of grace since otherwise he can reape no benefit by any Indulgence to which state he is brought by true Contrition of his former Sinns although not perhaps forgeuen in respect of eternall damnation in the Sacrament of Confession And heare is discouered the trissling vanity falshood of our Aduersaries in affirming that the Catholicks teach that the Pope can giue a fore hand an Indulgence to any Man for any sinne which hereafter is to be committed Since wee see that the obiect of an Indulgence is the temporall punishment only and not the punishment of damnation and this for a sinne allready committed and not hereafter to be committed of which a Man being in state of grace and consequently not one who beareth a present resolution to commit any sinne hereafter is remitted by his Indulgence applyed to hym vpon iust and reasonable Causes We are further heare to admonish that the Partie receauing an Indulgence ought to performe entyrely and precisly all things enioyned hym by his Indulgence Whether it be prayer Alms fasting c. According to that vsuall saying Indulgentia tantum valent quantum sonant Wheare it is taught that the Merits and suffrings of some greate Saincts as of our Blessed Lady S Iohn Baptiste and some others do concurre to the encrease of this spirituall Treasure of the Church which is the foundation of Indulgences this is to be vnderstood in this sense to wit that because their Meritts works and sufferings haue their vertue and valew only from the Meritts of our Sauiours Passion And that they onely concurre to the increase of the treasure as they depend vpon the meritts of Christ therefore it may be truly said that primatiuely and Originally only the Meritts and Passion of Christ do make this spirituall treasure from whence Indulgences do flowe Ad hearto that if S. Paule might truly say in a researued sense Ad imple ea quae desunt passionum Christi in earne mea pro corporâ—â—ius quod est Ecclesia I do fullfill those things that do want of the passion of Christ in my flesh for his body which is the Church words which if any Catholicke should haue auerred of any one Sainct without the warrant of the Apostle he should haue bene mighrely calumnâ—ated and wronged by the Protestants then followeth it that the afflictions and sufferings of S. Paule as receauing their force from Christs PassioÌ„ may be said without any indignitie to Christ to encreasse this spirituall treasure of the Church For these former words do not import that there was any defect in the Passion of Christ but that the sufferings of S. Paule did fulfill the plenitude of Christ his Passion and his members for the benefit of those to whom they are to be communicated For as Christ being the inuisible and supreme heade of his Church doth with his Church make but one mysticall body so his sufferings with the sufferings of his members receauing all their force and efficacy from the Passion of Christ do make as S. Austin affirmeth one common and publâ—ke Weâ—le or one publike treasure And according hereto it is that we fynd offered S. Paules afflictions sometymes for the Colossians at other times for the Corinthians he desiring at one tyme to dye for the Romans at an other tyme to become an Aâ—athemâ— for them To proceede further The Old Testament it selfe warranteth this mutuall communication of one suffering for an other And in this sense it is said of Gods Church there entituled Ierusalem that it is as a Citty whose participationes in it selfe That is As in a publicke Citty there is a generall trafficke for the publicke benefit of euery particular Citizen So in the Citty of God which is his Church there is a communion or participation of all the spirituall works thereof to the generall benefit and behooâ—e of eich particular Man And vpon this ground it is that Dauid said in respect of the communication of one Mans sufferings for an other
I gather that Victor out of his elation pride first chalenged that Primacy to him ouer all churches which your Popes at this day still vsurp and retaine This Pope Victor being one of those who couet ' aiem ' aristcucin cai ' yperochòn ' émmenai ' allon to aduance himselfe as the best and cheifest aboue all other Bishops CARD BELLARM. You do much disaduantage your selfe in alleadging this example considering the time wherein Victor liued to wit in the yeare 198. An age during the which your selfe hath hertofore confessed that the church â—f Rome did suffer no alteration in her Religion Now M. Doctour wheras you cast an aspersion of pride vpon this most ancient and reuerend Pope I wish you take heede that you do not incurre the censure passed vpon Diogenes who is said to haue reprooued Plato his pride with greater pride D. WHITAKERS It is certaine that many churches and Fathrs were offended with Victors proceeding therein and particulerly that ancient and pious Father Irenaeus which is an infallible argument of Victors vsurpation For if Victor had true power to excommunicate the churches of Asia as it is graunted he actually had why should Irenaeus and those churches be offended or reprehend him for putting onely in execution his lawfull Authority CARD BELLARM. You must call to minde here M. Doctour the reason why Victor did excommunicate the Churches of Asia which was because the Bishops of Asia were vnwilling to conforme themselues to the Church of Rome in keeping of Easter day to wit to keepe it onely vpon Sunday whereas they would needs continue the keeping of it vpon the 14. of the Moone according to the custome of the Iewes Now for this their reluctation herein against the Church of Christ Victor did excommunicate them But when this seemed as being but a Ceremony and for a time tollerated through the weaknes of the Iewes in the iudgment of diuers too smal an occasion to excommunicate and cut off so many famous Churches therfore Victor was censured by diuers to be ouer seuere in prosecuting with so great a punishment so smal a seeming fault From which their thus censuring of Victor we may rather gather his Primacy aboue other Churches then otherwise and the reason hereof is because we do not finde any of the sayd Bishops to charge Victor with any Innouation in vnduely assuming to himselfe this Authority ouer other Churches which doubtlesly they would haue done if Victor had first taken this priuiledge to himselfe they being so iustly prouoked thereto but they did onely rebuke as is sayd his ouermuch rigid seuerity in punishing as they thought so rigorously so smal a disobedience in the Bishops of Asia Yea which is more that Irenaeus who was most forward in taxinge Victor with his sharp proceeding ascribeth to Victor a soueraignety ouer all Churches For besides that Irenaeâ—s is reprehended by the Centurists for acknow ledging the Primacy of the Roman Sea Eusebius thus writeth of Irenaeus touching this point Irenaeus admonisheth Victor by letters that he would not for the obseruation of a Tradition so long vsed quite cut of so many Churches from the body of the Vniuersall Church Thus Eusebius Now I here demand why should Irenaens dissuade Victor from excoÌ„municating those Churches but that he was persuaded that Victor had power to excommunicate them And thus farre of this instance which may be of force perhaps to prooue that Victor was ouer seuere but not that he had not true power ouer other Churches for which point it is by you M. Doctour vrged But I pray you passe to other instances onely here by the way I will put you in minde that careles and obstinate Christians and such it well may be some of those Asian Christians were haue in some respect small reason to feare the excommunication of the Pope since these men through such their disobediency do commonly excommunicate themselues D. WHITAKERS It is cleare that Zozimus Bonifacius and Celestinus all Bishops of Rome did chalenge superiority ouer other Bishops by forging of a Canon of the Nicene Councell Which proceeding manifesteth the then vsurped Authority of those Popes to be contrary to the institution of Christ Thus these your Popes thirsted after all domination and Power though at other times rhey made shew by styling theÌ„selues Serui Seruorum and by their other affected Humility to contemne all honours and eminency Cur vultis esse in mundo qui extra mundum estis CARD BELLARM. It is most strange to see how inconsiderately you proceed For here you say that these Popes first introduced this innouatios of the Superiority of the Bishop of Rome ouer other Churches and immediatly afore and with all one breath you ascribe the beginning thereof to Victor who liued two hundred yeares before any of these three Popes If these later Popes brought it in then Victor did not If Victor did begin it then those Popes could not See how irreconciliable these your two Assertions are From the actions of all which Popes you can truely gather that they onely practised an Authority which the Church of Rome euer had but not that they assumed any soueraignty to them which poynt is only in q 〈…〉 estion which afore that Church had not D. WHITAKERS M. D. Fulke conspireth with me in alledging the foresaid examples and he was a man well conuersant in Ecclesiasticall Histories his words are these Zozimus Bonifacius Celestinus did challeng prerogatiue ouer the Bishop of Afrik by forging a false CanoÌ„ of the Nicene CouÌ„cel And this Doctours indgmenâ— I much pryze in matters of controuersyes CARD BELLARM. Both D. Fulke his iudgment how learned soeuer you repute him and your owne also must of necessity yeald to the truth herein seing the example of Victor afore infisted vpon by you doth vindicate and free these three later Popes from all innouation in this poynt And as touching the supposed forging of a Canon of the Nicene Councell for the erection of the Primacy of Rome It is most false for euen your owne wryters to wit Caluin himselfe and Peter Martir do mention the said Canon as truly made Only they say that the Popes did misalleadge this decree as made by the Councell of Nice which was made by the Councell of Sardis And so their Error admitting that they did erre consisteth only in mistaking by whether Councell the said Canon was decreed D. VVHITAKER What say you of Boniface the third It is certain that this Boniface the third was then the first that intituled the Roman Church to be caput omnium Ecclesiarum the Head of all Churches CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour you weary me by idly diuerberating the ayre with these impertinent Examples and force me to entertayne them with a fastidious neglect For do not the former Examples of Victor Zozimus Bonifacius the first of that name and Celestiuus all more ancient then this Boniface the third take away the weight
of this your instance And therfore I referre you to my answeres touching theÌ„ aboue specified Yet because this verball Instance consisteth cheifly in the phrase of Caput omnium Ecclesiarum you shall therfore for your fuller satrâ—saction know that this very Title of being Head of the Church is acknowledged and giuen to the Church of Rome by many both Latine and Greeke Farhers who liued diuers hundred of yeares before this Boniface the third who raigned about the yeare 507. And first Vincentius Lyrinensis who was almost three hundred yeares before this Boniface calls the Bishop of Rome Caput Orbis the Head of the Christian World S. Hierome sayth that Damasus then Bishop of Rome est Rector domus Dei quae est Ecclesia eins Damasus is the Reciour or gouernour of the house of God which is his Church But if Damasus was the gonernour of the Church then was he the head of the Church Finally for greater contraction of this poynt in the Councell of Chalcedon consisting of many reuerend Doctours and Bishops and celebrated an hundred fifty yeares before this Bonifâ—ce his tyme we thus reade Papae Vrbis Romae quae est Caput omnium Ecclesiarum precept a habemus See the like phrase vsed and giuen to the Pope and the Church of Rome by the Emperour Iustinian Prosper Victor Vticensis and to pretermit others by S. Leo. So fowly M. Doctour you were deceaued in alleadging this Bonifacius and the phrase of Caput Ecclesiarum D. WHITAKERS Who knoweth not Ioh of Constantinople first challenged to himfelfe the name of Vniuersnll Bishop But Gregorie the Great then Bishop of Rome eigrauissime conflantissimè restitit quousque vixit most grauely and constaÌ„tly resifled him as long as he liued affirming him to be the Precursor of Antichrist who should arrogate this tytle of Vniuersall Bishop to himselfe But now my Lord euery Pope since Gregories time styleth himselfe Vniuersall Bishop and therfore euery such Pope in the iudgment of the sayd Gregory is the Precursor of Antichrist and consequently euery such Pope hath made no smal change in this mayne point from the Fayth first planted by Christ for what commerce and association in Fayth can there be betweene Christ and Antichrist CARD BELLARM. Yet M. Doctour more of these froathy Instances Who hath not read or heard that Gregory the Great liued in the yeare 590. and therefore some thousand yeares since or more whereas the former alleadged Victor Zozimus Benifacius the first Celestinus and Bonifacius the third liued many yeares afore him and some of them seuerall hundred of yeares were his ancients How theÌ„ could they assume a SupreaÌ„e Authority ouer all Churches as you afore haue vrged and haue the title of Head of the Church giuen them if Iohn of CoÌ„stantinople were either the first that tooke this title to himfelfe or that Gregory the Great did dislike it in that sense wherein you insist Therfore what censorious temerity is this in you M. Doctour and how hardly can you vindicate your name by this your comportment from all iust blemish and disreputation But suppose this reprehension giuen by S. Gregory were true this only argueth a change to haue bin in Iohn of Constantinople but not in the Bishop of Rome which is the only poynt here questioned Againe I cannot but obserue how in this place for your aduantage you can commend Gregory for his humility and vertue whom at other tymes you are not afrayd to tearme Antichrist and whose first Conuersion of you English to Christianity you haue elsewhere stiled Corrupt and Impure see how ready you protestants are to turne the sayles of of your speach to euery winde D. WHITAKERS Will you deny that Iohn of Constantinopee did take this title of Vniuersall Bishop to himselfe or that Gregory the Great did not reprehend him for the same There are ancient Histories recording no lesse CARD BELLARM. No. I do not deny it But I say the deceipt lyeth in the equiuocation of the word Vniuersall Bishop This worde lyeth open to a double acceptance either to signify that hee who is the Vniuersall Bishop is sole Bishop so as it excludeth all others from being Bishops in which sense S. Gregory did tearme it sacrtlegious prophane and Antichristian Or else to signify one who hath the cheife care and gouerment of the Vniuersall Church by which signification others are not excluded from being Bishops That in the first sense Gregory did take the worde Vniuersall Bishop is most euident euen out of Gregoryes owne works for thus he writeth hereof If one be Vniuersall Bishop it remayneth that you be no Bishops And agayne If one be called the Vniuersall Patriarch the name of Patriarch is taken away from the rest In this sense did Gregory take the word and in this sense did Iohn of Constantinople labour to haue the word applyed to himselfe endeauouring to be thought the cheife Bishop of the world to vse your owne D. Feilds words because his Citty was the cheife Citty of the world Thus you see M. Doctour how weakly or rather how so Phistically you argue from the ambiguous acceptance of the phrase of Vniuersall Bishop But your fault is here the greater since you being a scholler are not ignorant that Sophistry is only by incidency and for caution to be known but not to be practised so Phisitions know for greater warines the venemous nature of certayne hearbs or druggs D. WHITAKERS Howsoeuer Gregory might take this word in your former restrayned sense yet seeing he did forbeare to exercise that foueraignty ouer other Bishops and Churches which now the Bishops of Rome do practise it followeth therefore that he wholy disliked this swolne domination and Primacy so much thirsted after by your Popes CARD BELLARM. It seemes M. Doctour you are a stranger in your owne supposed Israell I meane you are not acquainted with your owne learned Brethrens writings for what poynr of Primacy and Soueraignty ouer other Churches and Bishops is there which Gregory the Great did not exercise and this by the acknowledgment of your owne Ceeturists For though he was a most religious Pope and so great an Enemy to Pride as that he might be truly sayd to haue bin euen ambitious of Humility yet in respect of his Papall Iurisdiction it is thus written of him He chalenged to himselfe power to commaÌ„d Arcbishops to ordayne or depose Bishops at his pleasure Hee tooke vpon him right to cyte Arcbishops that they should declare their cause before him when they were by any accused Hee placed in other Bishops Prouinces Legats to konw and end the causes of those who made their appeale ta Rome He vsurped power of calling Synods in the provinces of other Bishops Thus do the Centurists write of Gregory collecting the Premisses out of his owne writings To be short they further in generall thus write of him saying Gregorius dicit sedem
be attended on with an ouer late repentance And you must knowe that the wings of a new conuerted soule to Christ do commonly at the first performe their speediest flight Quis dabit mihi pennas sicut Columbae et volabo Which for the most part after through some default or other do begin to lagg and to make certaine plaines For though these first Motions of the soule in the seruice of God be neither Naturall nor Violent since they descend only from him to whome by prayer we ascend yet they pertake much of that MotioÌ„ which is violent they being ordinarily more strong feruerous in the beginning more remisse towards the end and indeed experience teacheth vs that a Precipitiòus and ouer hasty deuotion is sometimes daÌ„gerous But if this your good desire do hereafter perseuere and continew I shall be ready within conuenient time to giue you my best assistance therein MICHEAS My Lord I make smale doubt that this my resolution through the ayde of him who first did inspire it into my soule will remayne stable and vnchangeable Therefore your Lordship may further hereby take notice that my intention is to spend his short remnant of my yeares in diligently studying the Controuersies betweene the Catholicks the Protestants to attempt as afore I intimated to plant that relilgion in others which you haue already planted in me I further am resolued to take a view if my aged feeble body will suffer me of the most famous Catholicke Protestant Vniuersities in Christendome and particularly I haue I confesse a thirsting desire to see the two so much celebrated Vniuersities of England of the one of which I here D. Whitakers is a member places of which Fame her selfe hath sounded her trumpet in the highest Note Now my good Lord in regard of these my determinations and of my late embracing of the present Roman Roligion the noyse and bruite whereof will no doubt spread it selfe at large I do probably presage that I shall meete with diuers Protestants who hearing of my election of Religion will perhaps earnestly solicite me for my change to them and making many violent incursions vpon my yet weake and vnfortified iudgment will endeauour to demollish and lay leuell with the ground whatsoeuer your Lordspip by your former learned discourse hath already built in my soule Therefore that I may sit close and immooueable in this my choyce of faith now made I would intreate your Lordship to instruct me how I may best guide occasion in discourse with such Men that so they may not be able to winne ground vpon my weakenesse For though I can in part discerne the sufficiency of other men yet reflecting vpon my owne imbecillity I with all discouer the want of their like sufficiency in my selfe I herein resembling the outward sence which aswell iudgeth of the absence as of the presence of it Obiect Therefore good my Lord initiate me a litle in this Mistery CARD BELLARM. Mieheas I like well of this your Promethian and forecasting wisedome And I will to my best ability powre satisfie this your desire And whereas you say you determine to see the Vniuersities of England I approoue well thereof for I haue often heard that speaking of the Materials of an Vniuersity they are the goodliest in all ChristeÌ„dome I meane for magnificence and statelines of their Colledges for opâ—lency and great reuenewes belonging to them and for their pleasing and sweete scituations If you go to Oxford you shall in all likelyhood fall in acquaintance with one D. Reynolds a Man as I am enformed not of a harsh and fiery as his Brother D. Whitakers is but of a temperate comportment one of whom the whole Vniuersity doth highly preiudge and indeede not vndeseruedly he being his Religion excepted endued with many good parts of literature and who hath heretofore bene my Antagonist in some of his Books written against some parcels of my Controuersies But now to descend to your last request to me seeing then you are not as yet conuersant in Points of faith controuerted betweene the Catholicke and Protestant My maine and first aduise is that in all points of faith of which any dispute may hereafter occurre betweene you and any Protestant you finally do rest in the authority of Christs visible Church and the cheife heade thereof assuring your selfe that although Simon the fisher was not able to determine matters of faith yet that Simon Peter and his successours assisted with competency of meanes haue euer an impeachable soueraignty granted to them and a delegated authority from Christ himselfe for the absolute discussing deciding of all Articles in faith and Religion Tues Petrus et super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam et portae Inferi non praeualebunt aduersus eam Expect to meete with men who are witty and of good talents and who well know how to spread their Netts to catch the vnprouided And whose streame of discourse for diuers of them are of great elocution for the most part runneth in their accustomed chanels of pleasing insinuations persuading to their faith and a violent ouercharge of gauleful words against the present Roman faith Touching their allegation of authorities either deuine or humane credit them no further then your owne eyes will giue you leaue for diuers of them vse strange impostures therein though they warrant such their proceedings with greate coÌ„fidency of earnest asseuerations quod si etiam viuit Dominus dixerint et hoc falsò iurabunt Make choice if so it lieth in your power rather to dispute with Protestant Doctours and Ministers who are vnmarried then married since the secret iudgments of these later may well be ouercome by force of argument but to persuade the wills to follow their iudgments in regard of theire clog of wife children and worldly preferments is more then a Herculean labour And indeed I confesse I do much commiserate the state of diuers of them who being otherwise of great wits and might haue beene much seruiceable in the Church of God by being inchanted with a little Redd and White and a well proportioned face do in their yonger daies tye theÌ„selues by marriage to the world to the attending afflictions thereof ô that the soule of man not subiect to dimension should be thus enthralled to Creatures for their hauing a pleasing dimension But to proceede You shall finde many of them of great reading yet of reading sorting rather to contradict and quarrell then to instruct but diuers of their coate are content through their owne want to retaile by help of Indexes and such other meanes their owne more learned Brethrens writings labours And many of these through their owne ignorance thinke they do well and that they professe a true faith wheras the more learned of them through their reading and study must in their owne soules of necessity be conscious guilty of the falsehood of their owne Cause though the preseÌ„t
of the Messias For all we concurrently maintayne that the Professours of the true fayth must at all tymes without the least interruption be made knowne and discernable And we further iustify that a want of such a Visibility destroyeth and annihilaâ—eth the Church of God MICHAEAS But will these two learned Men conspire with you M. Doctour in defending this euer necessary Visibility of the Church and this without any retyring backe herein or lessening and mincing the poynt once afore granted OCHINVS I speake for my selfe I am so confident therein as that I am ready at this instant to maintayne it agaynst any and this from the prophecyes of Gods sacred writ wherein the palme and victorious state of the Church in subiugating to it the Gentils is at large soretould to be in these after tymes euer most illustrious and radiant NEVSERVS And I as confidently do auerre the same euen from the sayd former deuine Oracles and am prepared if neede should require to solue all such texts of Scripture which in an ignorant and mistaking eye may seeme to import an Inuisibility of the Church at any tyme. MICHAEAS You all answere me to my full content and aboue my expectation Well then let vs eauen and playne the way of our ensuing dispute by resting vpon some one granted ground on all sides Which ground is the establishment of the Churches Visibility For it being once presumed that the true Church of God must at all tymes enjoy this Visibility it then most consequently followeth that you are obliged eyther to produce examples of Protestant Professours for euery age since Christ or els to grant that the Protestant Church is not the true Church but a late erected Conuenticle Therefore in regard hereof I hould it fitting that all of vs should ioyne our forces together for the proofe of this chiefe and head principle of the Churches Visibility you then Ochinus if it shall please you may according to your former proffer vndertake the probation of it from the Scripture Neuserus will he sayth recconcile all such chiefe seeming passages of the Scripture as may make show to euict the contrary And I will entreate of you M. Doctour to fortify the sayd Verity from the learned Monuments of the auncient fathers in whose wrytings no doubt you haue bene much conuersant as also from force of Reason My selfe will lastly reuet and warrant the same point from the often ingeminated acknowledgments of the most markable learned Protestants In whose bookes I confesse I haue much trauelled since my conuersion from Iudaisme And whose authorities I shall haue often occasion to produce throughout this conference For now you may take notice that I haue cast off all my former outward comportment of a Iew and am not only in fayth but also in my studyes my Idiome of speech and euery way els wholy Christian D. REYNOLDS I like well your method here intended and indeed it is that which the Philosophers call Ordo Naturae For by this meanes we first handle the Thesis to wit whether the Church of God is to be visible or no. That done we next descend to the Hypothesis Which is if the Protestants Church hath euer enioyed this Visibility or not Neyther can any iudicious man hould this first part as but certayne Prolegomena tending only to the better vnfoulding of the second Part for it is indeed a primary essentiall and radicall point and first in all necessity to be discussed For what auayleth it to prooue that there haue bene Professours of Protestancy in all ages since Christ if it rest doubtfull whether the Church of Christ exacteth such a necessity of it Professours in all ages or no Therefore Michaeas for my part I wâ—llingly vndergoe the taske desired by you OCHINVS We all ioyne hands herein Thus we see that ech of vs is prepared to cary a stone to the building of this fort which being once erected wil be able to endure the shot of her greatest Enemyes NEVSERVS I am most ready to performe my former assumed Scene therefore delay no tyme but begin OCHINVS Well then seing the proofes drawne from the sacred Scripture are worthily euer to haue the first place and seing I haue voluntarily imposed this labour vpon my selfe I will first begin Now for the confirmation of this supreme Verity of the Churches Visibility we will produce our first proofes from those Prophecyes which foretell that the Church after the coÌ„ming of the Messias shal be miraculously multiplyed Which extraordinary multiplicity of Professours must needs imply a Visibility of them As where it is sayd of the Church The Iles shall wayte for thee Their Kings shall miuister vnto thee and thy gates shal be continually open Neyther day nor night shall they be shut that men may bring to thee the riches of the gentills And agayne Kings shal be thy nursing Fathers and Queenes thy mothers And yet more I will giue thee the Heathens for thy inheritance and the end of the earth for thy Possession And lastly to omit diuers others such predictions of the Churches encrease and amplitude it is sayd enlarge the places of thy tents spread out the curtaynes of thy habitation for thou shalt encrease on the right hand and on the left thy seede shall possesse the Gentills and inhabit the desolate Cityes Now how can these Prophecyes touching the enlargement of the Church be truly applyed to that Church which shall consist of so few as that it shal be sometimes absolutely Inuisible Or how shall it gates be continually open and shut neyther day nor night as aboue is prophecyed of it if it shall remayne at any time in a night of Latency In this next place I will alledge such texts of holy Scripture wherin we fynd the word Ecclesia or Church In all which without exception by the word Church is signifyed a visible congregation of Men. The places among others for breuity omitted may be these Numbers 20. Why haue you brought the Church of the Lord into solitude But this Church was the knowne and visible people of Israëll which came out of Aegypt In like sort it is sayd 3. Kings 8. The King turned his face and blessed all the Church of Israell for all the Church of Israell did stand c. Math 18. Tell the Church if he will not heare the Church let him be as an Heathen or Publican But how can we be commanded to tell the Church if we do not know which is the Church And if in all our spirituall necessities we are commanded to repaire to the Church then followeth it that the Church at all tymes must be visible Act. 20. Take heede to your selues and to the whole flock wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you Bishops regere Ecclesiam Det to gouerne the Church of God But how could they gouerne the Church of God if they knew it not Act. 15. They being brought on the way by the Church passed through Phâ—enice
the old Testament and absolutly to abandon and disclayme from the New And therefore let vs returne backe to Michaeas and the Doctour to acquaint them with this our finall resolution OCHINVS Michaeas and M. Doctour My selfe and Neuserus haue in the secretts of our soules passed our impartiall censures vpon this our Conference And we both acknowledge the full weight of Michaeas his resons in disprouall of your instances of our owne former euading answeres And our Conclusion is that we both assure our selfs that the ProtestaÌ„t Church had neuer any visible existence for these many last seuerall ages at the least And in deed I confesse when I do consider how Christ by his power wisdome and goodnes had established and founded his Church washed it with his bloud and enriched it with his spirit and discerning how the same is funditus auersa vtterly ouerthrowne I cannot but wonder and being desirous to know the cause I find there haue bene Popes who haue preuayled in vtter extirpation and ouerthrow of Christ his Church Here you haue my ceusure accompanyed with the true Reason thereof NEVSERVS I do fully conspyre in iudgment with Ochinus mooued thereto through the strenght and validity of Michaeas his Arguments And yet I hope this is no blemish eyther to you M. Doctour who haue most learnedly handled this poynt nor to our selfs but only to the weaknes of our cause for there are some vntruths so palpable and iniustifiable and among them rang the supposed visibility of our owne Church that neyther learning Art or the bestfiled words which commonly 〈◊〉 the eare of credulity are able to set a good gayne vpon them Therefore Michaeas to be snort in beleiung that the Protestant Church for many centuryes hath bene wholy inuisible Ochinus and my selfe are wholy yours MICHAEAS I much reioyce thereat and I hope notwithstanding both your former acerbity of speeches that now vpon your second and more serious renew of this point the acknowledgment of this one Truth wil be a good disposition for your further encertaynment of the Catholicke fayth since a dislike of the Protestant Church implyeth in itselfe a fauorable respect to the Catholicke Church which Church hath euer bene houored with a perpetuall visibility OCHINVS Stay Michaeas Not so You are ouer hasty your praeÌ„ is as yet not gotten and your credulous expectation ouerrunne your iudgment Know you therefore first that touching your Church at the stearâ—e whereof that Romish Antichrist doth sit we hould it not as aboue we protested to be the Church of God And then it matâ—reth nothing with vs whether your sayd Antichristian Church haue euer since it first being bene visible or no For though we teach that the true Church must euer be visible yet we teach not conuertibly that what Church hath euer bene visible the same is the true Church Furthermore Michaeas and M. Doctour take both you notize that the confessed want of a continuall visibility and of the administration of the word and Sacraments ministreth to vs a great suspicion whether the Church of Christ be that Church of God which is so much celebrated by the Prophets of the Old Testament and consequently whether Christ be the true Messias of the World For if he had so been doubtlesly he would not so quickly haue repudiated his intemerate and chast spouse for so the true Church of God is after his departure from hence NEVSERVS What Ochinusâ—ath â—ath deliuered though perhapps with amazement to you both I do here iustify And as it is euident that the former Prophecyes haue not been actually performed in Christ his Church So we must needs rest doubtfull at the least through want of the performance of the sayd Predictions whether Christ be that Redeemer of the World which was promised to the Fathers of the old Law And whether he had true authority to erect this Church of which he hath made himselfe Head â—or certainly the auncient Predictions deliuered in a propheticall spirit touching the Messias and his Church are infallibly to be performed in the Messias his Church MICHAEAS How now my Maysters Is this the fruit of my refelling your Churches Visibility Tends your approbation of my former discours to this Whether ayme these strange and fearefull speeches of yours Will you disclayme from Christ as your Redeemer because the Prophecyes of the old Testament touching the expansion latitude and continuall visibility of the Church of God are not performed in the Protestant Church And will you not confesse the sayd predictions to be fulfilled at all because they are not fulfilled by that way and meanes as your selfs would haue them Take heed do not obliterate and deface those fayre impressions charactered in your soules at your Baptisme neyther now diâ—auoâ—â— your then taken first now O mercifull God how ignorant are you in these matters And then more miserably ignorant it that partly through learning you are become ignorant Do you thinke to honour the Father by dâ—shonoring the Sonne euen that Sonne in whome the Father tooke such ineffable contentment Hic est filius meus dilectus in quo mihi complacui Certayne it is that if you perseuer in iudgment as your words import you deny him for your Sauiour who had a Father without a Mother a Mother without a Father The first argued his Diuinity the second his immaculate and pure Natiuity Quod de Deo profectum est 〈…〉 eus est Dei Filius Vnus Ambo You deny him whose body was framed of such an admirable and delicate constitution and temperature as that the earth did then contrary to it accustomed manner euen power it influence vpon Heauens To be shorâ— you deny him who gaue himselfe 〈◊〉 Redemption for all who tasted death for all who tooke away the sinnes of the World and finally who was Sauiour of the world and reconciliation for our sinnes In the tyme of whose Passion death did euen â—euiâ—e and Eclips did enlighten Lux in tenebris lucet tenebrae eum non comprehenderunt But why labour I to celebrate his byrth who is from all eternity or to performe his exequies who cannot dye Mors illi vltrà non dominabitur And by you assured that who contemne Christ the Redeemer of all flesh must needs contemne God the Authour of all flesh And where you call the Pope that Romish Antichrist see how malice seeleth vp the eye of your iudgement you mantayne is seems that the true Christ and Messias is not yet come How can the Pope then by your doctrine be Antichrist since Antichrist you know is to come after not before the true Christ Againe for prouffe that the Pope is Antichrist you no doubt will make show to rest vpon the wrested authority of the New Testament And shall not then the said New Testament be of the like authority with you to proue that Christ is the true Messias OCHINVS Tush Michaeas This is but
as naming eyther the said Priests or Conference though all the Realme did then ring thereof But his intended policy therein may well be presumed to be that if he had made any particular Reference to the sayd Conference or Priests he might well assure himselfe that then presently an answere would be shaped against his Booke which â—e had lesse reason to feare as he thought his Treatise comming forth in this louely manner And so himselfe as no doubt he hoped might haue set downe as the phraze is with the last Word But whosoeuer the Authour is most certaine it is that the Treatise is most shalow and frothy though otherwise it be fraught with diuers deceats and impostures But we must pardon him seing we are to remember that there are some falshoods and among these this of the supposed Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages may iustly be placed of so deep a tincture of lying as that no art can make them receaue any other dye The ambitious title as presuming the Protestant Church to be the true Church promiseth you see to prooue that the Visibility and Succession of the Protestant Church hath perpetually and without interruption bene in all ages since Christ his dayes But here that vulgar saying is iustifyed parturiunt montes nascitur ridiculus mus as will easily appeare to any that shall studiously peruse the former Dialogue or will obserue what is here adioyned And as touching this precedent Catholicke Treatise of the second part of the Conuerted Iew. Though it be indeed purposely and principally written against all eminent Protestants in generall as appeareth by the alledging of their names and testimonyes therein who heretofore haue mantained by their penns the continuall visibility of the Protestant Church yet may it with all be iustly reputed as a full answere to this discourse here examined seeing the whole scope drift and cheïfe examples of Protestancy I meane of Hus Wicklefe Waldo diuers others insisted vpon by this Anonymous and namelesse Authour are discouered in the former Dialogue for false idle and impertinent as being alledged long since by other more famous Protestants Thus we see that this Authour is glad to licke vp the arguments of his former Brethren to feed vpon their reuertions Now what other things of lesser moment may occurre herein especially touching the impostures and calumnyes here practized and the names of some obcure men suggested for Protestants only by this Authour they shall in this short Suruey be displayed and refuted What is here set downe by me is set downe with all affected and labored playnes of words or style purposely forbearing all excursions or amplifications of discourse and this to the end that the Reader may with the lesse distraction of Iudgment and Memory haue at once a short and whole Synopsis and sight of this Authours falshoods subtâ—ltyes and snares where with he labours to illaqueate entangle the simple and ignorant And now to descend to a particular dissection or anatomizing of this Pamphlet First the Reader is to obserue that the Wryter thereof spendeth 28. pages in seeking to prooue that it is not exacted that the Church of God should be at all tymes visible at least to others Yea he is so full and earnest therein as that meerely crossing his prefixed title he laboreth to prooue the contrary to the said title for thus to omit diuers such other passages he writeth The godly are driuen to extremityes by Heresyes or persecutions they be visible one to an other c. they are not so apparent to other men as that at all tymes they know where to find Assemblyes and Congregations of them And againe It is not doubted but that the Woman to wit mentioned in the Apocalyps doth represent the Church concerning whom being in Wildernes it doth manifestly follow that for the tyme of her aboad here which the Almighty hath decreed she should not be discerned that is by her Enemyes who did would chase her Notwithstanding it is not to be doubted but she knew where herselfe was And yet more fully The Church of Christ whilest this troublesome World lasteth is now glorious then shadowed in one age in bewty in an other kept vnder vnder some Princes in peace vnder others in persecution yea sometymes so pressed with the extremity of the malicious as that she is glad to remayne retyred into secret places and not to appeare openly to the malignant But in an other place following to wit pag. 26. he plainly depriueth the Church of Christ of all Visibility thus speaking In the dayes of Constantius when the Arian Heresy had once gotten on head wherein the World did there appeare any sensible Congregation mantayning the orthodoxall beleife Now what a strange Inuisible Visibility as I may tearme it doth this Authour assigne to the Church of God in effect thus extrauagantly arguing The Church of Christ is sometymes more obsâ—ure then at other tymes Therefore the Church of Christ is sometymes inuisible For I can see no other Inference nor other end whereunto his former speeches are directed But this sleight as being shadowed vnder the colour of Persecution is refuted in a passage of this former Dialogue And here I now demand how doth all this sort to the former glorious tytle of his Booke to wit Of the perpetuall Visibility and Succession of the true Church in all ages Now how painfully or rather calumniously the Authour laboreth to prooue this inconspicuousâ—es and obscurity of Christ his Church we will in some few leaues touch referring the Reader to the beginning of the former Discours for the more full refuting and impugning of the same Where it is demonstrated that the Church of Christ must at all times be most visible And first this Pamphleter much insisteth in the tymes of the Iewes prouing from the paucity of true beleiuers among them that the Church of Christ is in lyke sort at diuers tymes to be straytned And to this end he produceth many sentences of the Prophets whose places for greater breuity are noted in the margent But here his Ignorance or at least his fraude is discouerable For first these places are to be vnderstood not so much of want of fayth as of bad conuersatioÌ„ in lyfe and manners wherewith the Prophets did charge the Iewes Secondly the Texts alledged are indeed for the most part in words spoken of the Iewes in generall but not intended by the Prophets to be ment of all the Iewes promiscuously Which Prophets were often accusâ—omed as S. Austin well noteth to reprehend the whole People as if not any among them were good though many among them were pious Thus for Example Ezechiel saith c. 3. All the house of Israel are impudent and sâ—ifharted and yet in the nynth chapter of the same Prophet we thus reede Set a marke with Taâ— vpon the forheads of them that mourne and crye for all the abominations that be done in the middest
end of World for the administration of the Word and Sacraments as not only D. Fulke and other learned Protestants do teach but also is euidently proued in the fore-said mentioned Second Part of the Conuerted Iew And seing an vnterrupted preaching of the Word and administratian of the Sacraments hath euer by the lyke Confession of our learned Aduersaries bene in our Catholicke Church Therefore it may inauoydably be concluded that either our Catholicke Church as euer enioying the former imposed Notes is the only true Church of Christ Or which is most absurd in it selfe and repugnant to infinit places of Holy Scripture that there hath beene for seuerall ages no true Church of Christ at all extant vpon the face of the Earth That the Catholicke Roman Church enioyeth the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments besides the euidency of the truth thereof other wise is confessed by D. Field who speaking of Luther and others acknowledgeth that they receaued from the Church of Rome their Baptisme Christianity Ordination and power of Ordination By Luke Osiander thus wryting Ecclesia que sub Papatufuic c. The Church which was vnder the Papacy when Luther was borne was the Church of Christ for it had the ministery of the Ghospell the sacred â—eriptures Baptisme the Lords supper c. and finally to omit many others by Luther himselfe thus acknowledging Nâ—s fatemaâ— c. We confesse that there is vnder the Papacy true Scrpture true Baptisime the true Sacrament of the Altar the true keres for the remission of Sinnes the true office of preaching true Catechisme Thus Luther And here with I end touching further discourse of this subiect remitting to the euen and impartiall censure the more sober Protestant whether the danger and detriment which fall vpon our Aduersaryes by erecting the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments for Markeâ— of Christs Church granting them for the tyme to be the marks thereof do not by many degrees ouerballance the aduantage which our Aduersaryes by pretending them for Notes do hope to gaine Since as by such their pretence they on the one side labour to reduce the knowing which is the true Church to their owne priuat Iudgments which euery learned and iudicious man at the first sight expoldeth for an impostute so on the other side they are forced euen by most necessary Inferences resulting out of their owne doctrine herein first to grant that the Protestant Church as for many ages by their owne acknowledgments wanting the said Notes being essentiall to the true Church hath for the sayd ages contrary to the Nature of Christs true Church beene vtterly extinct and not in being Secondly that during the sayd centuryes or ages our Catholicke Roman Church through it euer enioying of these Protestant Notes is the true Church or that otherwise there hath beene no true Church of Christ in all that great compasse of yeres Which last point to affirme is most repugnant to God sacred Writ That the Pope and Church of Rome may vpon most vrgent Occasions sometimes dispence with some degrees of Mariadge prohibited in Leuiticus And that in so dispensing the Law of Nature which euer bindeth is not violated or transgressed by them THE explanation of thâ— Question taketh it source from this one Proposition To wit All the preceps which are deliuered in Leuiticus touching the degrees prohibited in mariadge do not bind Christians by deuyne law to obserue them Which proposition or sentence being once confirmed and fortifyed it then followeth that the Church of Christ and the Head thereof may vpon iust and most vrgent occasion dispense without any sinne with some degrees prohibited in Leuâ—â—icus For the better vnfoulding and vnderstanding of this one proposition we are first to conceaue that both the Catholicks and Protestants do teach That the precepts of Leuiticus do not oblige Christians as they are properly Leniticall that is as they are Positiue and Iudicâ—all but only as they are Naturall that is as they are prohibited by the law of Nature Now the Catholicks do further teach that as some preceps in Leuiticus are Naturall so some other preceps are not naturall but meerely iudiciall and therefore may be dispensed with by Christ his Church as the Councell of Trent affirmeth Whereas our Aduersaryes mantayne that all the precepts of Leuiticus are Naturall and therefore â—ich of them indispensable by the Church Now here we are to remember that those are Naturall precepts which are knowne for such only by the light of nature without any discourse or at least which are knowne for such by a most small discourse of Reason And these precepts are the same among all Men in all nations and tymes both for the knowledge of them and for the rectitude and iustnes of them Now such precepts as for the knowing of theÌ„ do neede supernaturall light are called Diuina positiua diuine Positions And those other Precepts which receaue their establishment by humane discourse from the Prince or Magistrate are styled Humana humana Constitutions and these are not the same among all men and in all nations Now then this iustly presupposed The first proposition to wit That all the Precepts deliuered in Leuiticus touching the degrees prohibited in Mariadge do not bynd Christians by diuine Law to obserue them Is proued First from the consideration of the different punishments appointed in the twentith of Leuiticus against those who transgresse in Maâ—iadge the different degrees prohibited in the eighteenth of Leuiticus Thus for example we there fynd that Mariadge contracted in the first degree of Affinity in the right line God punisheth with death and compareth it with adultery and sodomy Which are manifestly against the Law of Nature The same punishment of death is there apointed for such as marye in the first degree of Consanguinity in a collaterall line as when the Brother maryeth the Sister But now in the second degree of consanguinity in the collaterall line as when the nephew maryeth his Fathers sister or the Mothers sister this Mariadge is punished with a lesse and more gentill punishment In like sort mariadge in the first degree of Affinity in the collaterall line as when one maryeth the wife of his brother being dead and in the second degree to wit when the nephew maryeth the wife of his vncle is not punished with death of the parties so contracted but only with priuation of children That is that the children begotten in such a mariadge should not be asâ—rybed or reputed the childreÌ„ of their said patents Now this punishment euidently showeth that these mariadges are not prohibited by the Law of Nature since the light of Naturall Reason doth not dictate to all Men that the former chastisement is a iust punishment of the foresayd kind of mariadge Secondly the former proposition or sentence is thus prooued If all the precepts of Leuiticus touching the degrees of mariadge were ordayned by the