discipline whom they call Gouernours in the Ecclesiasticall state of this their desired regiment Yea their Pastors and their Deacons to For in such order as they prescribe them I thinke they will be all founde a newe kinde of ministerie howsoeuer they pretende to bring all thinges to that most perfecte and absolute order which God himselfe hath established by his worde But to set aside these termes of perfect and absolute what doe these men meane by so often inculcating of these sayinges Would they haue vs looke for Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes againe For they were the chiefest that were then of God himselfe established by his worde If they say they meane of such established as should be perpetuall let goe the perfection and absolutenesse of them and prooue the perpetuitie and necessitie of these offices And because all offices of the Church are so linked together as the members of one bodie whereof Christ is the head we will so describe one parte as the description of them all may be sufficiently comprehended therein As if a man would set foorth the manifold office vses of the hand he should declare what it doth alone and what it doth with the helpe of the other hande or with the arme with the brest with the knee or with the foote c. what it can doe with diuerse kindes of tooles and what without all manner of instrumentes This order wee thought good to obserue in describing the ministerie of the Church as by which both the distinction and communication of all offices seruices in the Church might most plainely appeare Otherwise we force not by what Methode so the same truthe bee plainely set foorth by any man And as we controll not other mens Methodes by ours so wee would not that other mens manner of teaching should bee preiudiciall to ours This we say because of them which eyther for lacke of wit or through too muche wilfulnesse if they see anie difference in the forme and order of teaching of diuerse men though in matter and substance they all agree they exclaime there is no vnitie and therefore no truthe among them That all offices of the Church are so linked together as the mēbers of one bodie whereof Christe is the head I thinke may be further called in question howe it may be rightly vnderstoode For the members of one bodie are so linked together and especially the officiall partes therof that if any of them be disioyned from the bodie beit hande or arme or brest or knee or foote the whole bodie is maymed Yea without th◠breast I take it it can not liue And as for the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christe whereof he is the heade though this communion bee in suche a mysticall sorte as the life of this head dependeth not vppon the mayming or taking away of anie parte or member of the mysticall bodie not taking anie life at all of anie parte of the bodie but giuing all th◠life they haue vnto all the partes thereof as the Apostle sayth Ephes. 4. that we should growe vp in him which is the head that is Christ by whō al the body being coupled knit together by euery ioynt for the furniture therof according to the effectuall power which is in the measure of euery part receaueth encrease of the bodie to the edifying of it selfe in loue So that no true part or liuing mēber of this mysticall bodie can indéede be seuered from Christ their head as Christ himself saith I am the vine ye are the branches c. except they be such vnfruitful branches of whō he saith If a man abide not in me he is cast foorth as a branch and withereth and men gather them and cast them into the fire and they burne But if they be◠members of the mysticall bodie indéede then may they safely boste with Paule Rom. 8. and say Who shall seperate vs from the loue of Christe shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakednesse or perill or sworde As who say no. For saith he I am perswaded that neyther death nor life nor Angelles nor principallities nor powers nor thinges present not thinges to come nor heighte nor depthe nor anie other creature shall be able to separate vs from the loue of God which is in Iesus Christ our Lorde And shall we nowe say that all offices of the Churche are so linked together as the members of one bodie whereof Christe is the heade For my parte I dare not anowe it of all offices of the Church Neither onely of those offices that are ceased as the Leuiticall Priestes or as the Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes and diuerse others no nor yet of all the offices of the Church remayning and that haue continued and be still among vs as Pastors and Deacons which are two of these your foure offices For if we had no Deacons at all as we haue yet might the Pastors and Teachers office still continue entier in the substance of the office and much lesse empayred without anie such necessitie of these supposed Gouernours that are so importunately required But this cannot be eyther in all the members of a naturall bodie and muche lesse in anie of the members of the mysticall bodie where-of Christe is the head that they can be separated one from an-other and remaine entier and therefore all offices of the Churche are not so linked together as are the substanciall partes thereof As for these our Learned discoursers description of the Churches offices promising so to describe one part as the description of them all may be sufficiently comprehended therein although it be not materiall yet I sée not also howe they haue discharged this promise of theirs in describing euerie one of their foure officers after this manner as wee shall plainely perceaue in their treatise euen of their first office of Doctor immediately following Wherein they neither deale with nor speake of eyther their Deacons or their Gouernours or shewe howe their Doctor hath anie intermedling with them at all And therefore they faile both in the manner of this description that here vnnecessarilie they tye themselues vnto nor they do not after this example as if a man would set forth the manifold office and vses of the hand he should declare what it doth alone and what it doth with the helpe of the other hande or with the arme with the brest with the knee or with the foote c. What it can doe with diuerse kindes of tooles and what without al maner of instruments This order that here they affirme they thought good to obserue they haue not obserued Although if they had obserued the same the truthe and substance of the matter had béene neither the further nor the nearer saue that the perspicuitie of the order maketh the truthe of the matter more plainely appeare Otherwise as they say euen so say we we force not by what Methode so the same truthe be
vpon particuler rules A Confisto of Ecclesi Seniors not necessarie but Magistrates necessarie Whereon the churches gouer depends The conclusion of our breth argumeÌ„t against the â—irste treatie of the Prince The dependance of the churches gouernmeÌ„t No oppositioÌ„ between Gods ordinance and the Princes authoritie No oppositioÌ„ between the churches the Princes authoritie The Churches authoritie VVhom they meane by the name of the churche The aduersaryes dealing vnder â—he name of the churche Our bretheren here giue no more to the Prince then do the aduersaries The Prince spoiled of all authority in all Eccl. matters The healpe that the churche receaueth of the Princâ— What authoritie the Churche receiueth immediatly of God what mediatly of man What authoritie the Prince receiueth immediatlie of God and mediatlie of man Our Breth confirming the aduersaries and the Anabaptists in all these examples The learned Dis. Pag. 10. Doctors Bridges Our Breth to bold resolution of these foure Tetrarches A doubtfull and confused distribution The Apostles distribution The Doctor hath the cheefest place The learned Dis. Pag. 10. and 11. Ephes. 4.13 1. Cor. 12.27 Bridges What effectâ— may insue of this Tetrarchie The Tetrarchie What necessitie of these effects These effectes without this Tetrarchie The learned Dis. Pag. 11. Bridges The L. D Pag. 11. Bridges Mans wisedom wit The L. D Pag. 11. Bridges The L. D Pag. 11. Bridges The L. D Pag. 11. Bridges Doctors The learned Dis. pag. 11. and 12. Ephes. 2.20 Bridges Our Breth disordered speeches of our disordered state Disordered alledging our allegaâ—ions Chrisâ—es inâ—â—â—tution The Fath. sclaundred Ephes. 2.20 S. Paules wordes wrested The auncient Fathers sclandered Peruerting the Churches policie The learned Dis. Pag. 12. Good intentes Bridges Good Intentes The learned Dis. P. 12.13 2. Thes. 2.12 Bridges An vneuen diuision of Doctrine discipline Vnhappie successe This successe hath not folowed in euery part of the Church Too sharpe a conclusion 2. Ephe. 2. The Church not tied to all the offices instituted of God Change of Gods ordinance Our Brethrens sclander of vs confuted by their owne testimonie Our Breth too peremptorie censure Reformation minded The learned Dis. Pag. 13. Bridges The reformation of our Church No new Ministerie to be set vp The learned Dis. P. 13.14 Our Breth Methode Bridges How the head and partes of the mysticall and naturall body are linked Ioh. 15.5 New ministerie The churches offices not so linked as the partes of the body The order that our bretheren promise to obserue The matter more to be respected then the meâ—hode The Meth. of the Learned Dis. A Method not to be controlled would be plaine and orderly set downe Fault found with disagreement in matter The learded Dis. Pag. 15. Pro. 29 1â— The office of teaching Bridges The office of teaching in respect of regiment is not the chiefest in the Church The L. D Pag. 15. Bridges Our bretherens contradictions in methode and matter about Doct The English Chuâ—ch in Geneua concerning Doctors The differences betweene our brethren and the Eng Church in Geneua coÌ„cerning Doctors Doctors office The learned Dis. Pag. 15. The office of a Doctor Bridges The name of Doctor The office of Teaching Pastours Doctours not distinguished in teaching The learned Dis. Pag. 15. 16. Bridges Doctours not necessary in euery Congregation The learned Dis. Pag. 16. Bridges The Doctors office Our brethereÌ„â— positioÌ„s of the Doct The learned Dis. Pag. 16. and 17. Ephes. 4.11 The institâ—tion of Doctors Dâ—fference in the ordinaunces of God free gifts of Christ some perpetual some temporall The auntieÌ„t fathers and late writers interpretation of 1. Câ—r 12. for Doctors Pastors Chrysost in 1 Corinth 12. Pag. 21. Theodoretus in 1. Cor. 12. Musculus in 1. Cor. 12. Musculus in Loc. com de minist verbii Caluinus iâ— 1. Cor. 1â— Hieroni. in Ephes. 4. Bullingerus in Ephâ—s The learned Dis. Pag. 17. Rom. 12.7 Râ—m 12.8 Bridges The action of teaching distinguished from exhorting inferreth no necessity of distinct offices in Teacher Exhortâ—r Iunius translation The signification of the worde Pastor The late writers on Doct. exhorting Wisedome knowledge faith languages interpretation c. were distinct gifts but not distinct offices in distinct persoÌ„s The iudgement of the late writers concerning the office of Doctors Magdeburg Centur. 1. li. 2. cap. 7. pag. 509. lin 12. Caluinus in Rom. 12. Doctors A Doctor is not debarred from exhorting Petr. Mart. in Rom. 12. Doctors exhorting Exampleâ— of the Doctors teaching with consolation Gualterus 〈◊〉 Rom. 12. Hemingius in Rom. 12. Bullingerus in Rom. 12. Oleuianus in Rom. 12. Doct. Exhorting Beza in Rom. 12. Dissent froÌ„ Beza Cap. 8.39 The Doct. applyed their interpâ—etations 1. Cor. 14.5 Edification Doctors may be Pastors as well as Pastors DD. The modestie of Caluin and Bezaes supposall No example of any one Doctoâ— restrained fâ—om applying in all the olde new Testament Caluiâ—â— Beza in 1. Cor. â—4 ver 3. Musculus in â— Cor. 14. Doctors Prophets Bullinger in 1. Cor. 14. Aâ—etius in 1. Cor. 14. Gualâ—er in 1. Cor. 14. ExhortatioÌ„ ConsolatioÌ„ Application Zuinglius Pet. Martyr Petr. Mart. in 1. Cor. 14. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Musculus iâ— his Commentarie oâ— 1 Cor. 14. Examples of Doctors Ambros. Chrysost. Gualâ—eruâ— in 1. Cor. 14. Gualterus in 1. Cor. 14. Pag. 15. Gualoerue in 1. Cor. 14.24 The learned Dis. Pag. 17. Act. 11.26 Acts. 18.28 Bridges Our Breth examples of Doctors Caluinus in Act. 13.1 The Doct. mentioned Act. 13. were exhorters Doctors Gualterus in Act. 13.1 These Doctors were appliers of their doctrine Beza in Act. 13.2 The Geneua note Bullingerus in Act. 13.2 The example of Doctor Barnabas Doctor Barnabas Vatablus Barnabas his name His application His exhortation Bullingerus in Act. 11. Caluinus in Act. 11. Marlorate Caluinus Marlorate Bullingeâ— Doctor Paule Caluinus Marlorate The example of Doctor Paule Caluinus in Act. 9. The manneâ— of a Bishops and a Doctors teaching Guaâ—terus in Act. 9. A Dâ—ctâ—â—â— expliâ—ation of doctrine though simple and fuâ—l sufficeâ—h not The Geneua note Caluine Marlorâ—te Caluinâ— Paule in his Doctorship changed not his manner of teaching Gualter This place Act. 13. wrested for any other Doctors theÌ„ for such Doctors as are examples to Pastors S. Paules teaching stil after the same maÌ„ner Caluine Paule and Barnabas not made heere suche Doctors as our Brethr. imagine The Doctors reading the Lectures of the Lawe the Prophets ioined exhortation Caluine Act. 13. The interpreters vsed teaching exhorting Licence to exercise their office The Counterpoyson Pag. The Iewes knew no Doct. but that were exhorteâ—s Caluinus in Act. 13. The Doct. office in exhorting and applying with teaching The Iewes Doctors The Geneua note on Act. 13.15 S. Paules application S. Paule to Timothie concerning the office of teaching S. Paules precepts of teaching S Paules example in teaching S. Paules admonition to Titus for teaching Caluin on 2. Tim. 3.16 Teaching going before exhorting ioyned
thee me neither yet betwixt thy heardmen and mine and he addeth this reason For we are brethren Which reason did so mooue the prudent Ioseph that after he had reuealed himselfe vnto his Brethren returning theÌ„ to fetch his father fearing least any expostulations might breede iarres among theÌ„ he gaue them this especial charge See that ye fall not out by the way Thus did these auncient holy Patriarkes esteeme of coÌ„cord among brethren shunned as a thing most vnnatural all Brethrens discord Which the godly propheticall kinges Dauid Salomon well considering the father stirring vs vp to embrace this vertue Beholde sayth he how good and comely a thing it is for Brethren to dwell in one together Liking it to the precious balme that was powred on the head of Aaron and to the sweet dewe of heauen that falleth on the mountaines to make them frutefull The sonne in detestation of the vice contrary when he had set down the 6. things that the L. hateth Hautie eies a lying tong handes that shed innocent bloud an heart imagining wicked enterprises feete that are swift in running to mischiefe and a false witnesse that speaketh lies he concludeth as with a greater vice than all these in the seuenth and complete number with this sinne which he sayth the soule of God abhorreth And him that rayseth vp contentions among his Brethren And therefore when our sauiour Christ had fore-told his Disciples all the persecutions that they should sustaine by their outward enemies against all these that they might haue brotherly loue among them selues Peace sayth hee I leaue with you my peace I giue vnto you And againe These thinges haue I spoken vnto you that my ioy which is the frute of peace might remayne with you and that my ioy might be full This is my commaundement that ye loue one another And so he knits vp his exhortation with this repetition These things haue I spoken to you that ye might haue peace in me Which bond of peace and loue in Iesus Christ one towardes another both the Apostle S. Paule the Doctor of the Gentiles and especially S. Iohn whom the Lord loued and S. Peter that so loued the Lord and S. Iames the iust in their Epistles so often and so earnestly call vpon and so vehemently disswade vs from contentions Empedocles among tâ—e heatheÌ„ Philosophers beholding the sympathie and antipathie that is in naturall creatures and being moued with the admiration therof concluded that all things were doâ—â— and vndone by concord and discord But to haue this order of nature so inuerted that those persons which are not only chained in this naturall Harmonie but also in a moâ—e heauenly concent should dissent be dissolued is farre more wonderfull thaÌ„ the composition of thinges contrary and that which is worse is much more ieopardous For as the Apostle warned the Galathians and by them vs If ye bite and deuour one another take heede least ye be consumed one of an other And since our Sâ—uiour him selfe hath so seuerely denounced that dreadfull sentence and it is a Maximie grounded on good reason Euery kingdome diuided against it selfe shall be brought to naught and euery Citie or house deuided against it selfe shall not stande no meruaâ—le if these contentions should hold on increase though our Brethren and we be moued hereat beholding this our most flourishing kingdome with these diuisions to be thus rent in sunder that almost no Citie or Towne in the same I can not say no house but is either diuided or at least disquieted by these factions Neuerthelesse this among other is our chiefest comfort against all these and other like tentations that hauing both of vs for the ground of our religion Gods euerlasting infallible truth for the which our common aduersaries do maligne and oppugne vs but can neuer expugne and ouercome vs for alwayes as Zorobabell â—ayde The truth is greater and stronger than all Howsoeuer therefore we be exercised with such plunges I meane not of the open enemies for the troubles that we receaue from them doe more corroborate vs in Gods truth but arising by the waywardnesse of our owne deare Brethren in the gospell that yet we should not be too much dismayed but stayed recomforted Sith that albeit these last dayes according to Christes and his Apostles prophecie are more contentious yet in serching the former ages we shall finde that this selfe same tryall of our faith is not now first laide vpon vs alone but that heretofore the Church of God and the most excellent Princes Prelates and people among them haue often times bought this experience very derely and with great molestations euen from their brethren No sooner had God deliuered his peculiar people from the Aegyptians bondage and idolatrie by the conduct of Moses and Aaron and giuen them lawes and orders to be gouerned by but those their guides were more molested and the people more wasted them selues by their owne mutinies than by the hande of any forraine enemies And since the comming of our sauiour Christ so soone as euer Constantine worthily surnamed the Great had extinguished all the tyrantes persecutions and procured publike peace vnto the gospell what a number of contentions straightwayes brake forth besides the conflictes with the pestiferous Heretikes among the true professors of the right faith euen for matters of discipline and orders disquieting the vnitie and concord of the Church and breeding no small griefe and stoppall to that good Princes proceedinges as we feele and lament the like in these our dayes There is great difference I graunt both in matter and manner of these contentions and in the qualities of the persons that breed these vexations euen as much as is between him that would plucke my coaâ—e from off my backe and so spoyle me and him that would pull my skinne ouer mine eares and so destroy me The controuersies between the common aduersaries and vs are pro Aris focis for matters that capitall matters of the substance life of our Christian religion not trifles as some newtrals would beare the people in hande And therefore our aduersaries in matters of religion are incensed against vs with mortall or rather with immortall hatred Whereas the controuersies betwixt vs and our Brethren are matters or rather as they call them but manners and formes of the Churches regiment Howbeit whether by sufferance or by neglect of them growen yet vnto so many heads and so sharply prosecuted not now contending so much for cappe surplesse nor for quarels at the vnlearneder sort of the poore ministers nor inuectiues against the Bishops their titles or their superiour iurisdictions only but withall calling in question all their whole authoritie their very ministery of the worde and Sacramentes and all our forme of publike prayers yea the prescription of any forme at all the alteration of all the Clergie the translation and new limitation of
are not prescribed nor specified as things necessarie to saluation both in life and manners to leuell all such orders be they ecclesiasticall ciuill or morall according to the analogie of those that are specified prescribed and to receiue them either as folded vp or vnfolded in those generall specifications prescriptions and so to estéeme them in their degrées as necessarie or expedient to edification for order comlinesse or obedience sake although they be none of those things that directlie apperteine vnto the necessitie of our saluation or to anie absolute necessitie of our obedience And thus farre as I vnder correction take it are these three principles albeit indéed no principles bicause we sée they are thus intricate ambiguous captious and so questionable but propositions are the fitter name for the two later to be admitted and no farther This foundation being surelie laide against which the gates of hell cannot preuaile we ought diligentlie and reuerentlie to search the holie scriptures that we may finde what order our sauiour Christ our onelie housholder hath set foorth in them by which he would haue his church or houshold to be directed in all thinges apperteining to the eternall saluation of vs men his vnprofitable seruants Héere our brethren drawe their thrée former propositions to an head or issue what order is prescribed in the holie scriptures But whereas they make these thrée foresaid propositions to be the foundation of all their building of this house of God the reuerence reserued to so learned discoursers me thinketh they should haue laide a more sure foundation whether it be of this house of Gods church or of their platforme of building this their ecclesiasticall gouernement For as we may easilie perceiue by view of these thrée propositions they are not all of them so sure and plaine principles as our brethren would beare vs in hand they are But this is apparant that they are not that foundatioÌ„ against which Christ saith that the gates of hell shall not preuaile That foundatioâ— was surelie laide indéed for it was Christ himselfe vpon whom by faith in him all the house of the church is builded as the Apostle saith No mâ—n can laye anie other foundation then that that is laide which is Iesus Christ. Séeing that therefore our brethren make all their foundation where vpon their plotforme of gouernement shall arise to consist on these thrée foresaid propositions I doubt least the surelier they thinke that they lay their building on it this foundation will not beare it being so sandie lose and hollowe except their building be of verie slight timber light stuffe Neuerthelesse the drift wherevnto they driue all these thrée propositions is well to be liked to search the scriptures as Christe willeth Iohn 5.39 For they testifie of him But although a man builde on that foundation which is onelye Iesus Christ yet saith S. Paule 1. Cor. 13.11 c. Let euerie man take heed how he buildeth vpon it For if any man build vpon this foundation gold siluer precious stones timber hay stubble euerie mans worke shall- be made manifest For the daie shall declare it bicause it shall- be reuealed by the fire and the fire shall trie euerie mans worke of what sorte it is If anye mans worke that he hath built vpon abide he shall receiue wages if anye mans worke burne he shall lose but he shall- be safe himselfe neuerthelesse yet as it were by the fire And who are these that build thus albeit on Christe Maye we not well among all other interpretations compare them vnto these builders which being neither Heathen nor Heretiks nor erroneous Papists for all those builde besidâ—s the foundation Christ But these building and grounding themselues so farre as reacheth to the ground and foundation all on Christe notwithstanding they contend as the Corinthians did about matters that were not so necessarie but lesse edifiynge of the which although some of them were gooâ— giftes of GOD méete for the state and time then present being well vsed but not to bee vrged so peremptorilie that euen a building and platforme shoulde bee made and prescribed vnto all churches and to all times and states of those things these men although otherwise they laye all their foundation onelie on Iesus Christ yet when the fire of Gods spirit and holie word shall come in-déed to trie them this fire will consume and burne vp as strawe or stubble yea be it timber also all these curious and contentious plotformes that these our zeâ—lous brethen haue framed and endeuoured to set vp on Iesus Christe the rocke and foundation of all the building But not so but that they their selues by the grace of God shall neuer the lesse be saued though these deuises of theirs for all they build them on Christ yet bicause they are not so necessarie to edifiyng as they conceaue of them shall perish in the triall And as this is true of our brethrens building so likewise of ours or oâ— anye others if we should make anye building on Christe of the outward order of ecclesiasticall gouernement otherwise then as S. Paule the wise maister builder dooth not to vrge them as matters of saluation or as though the perfection of religion laye in them nor yet to giue leaue to euery priuate congregation to dispose of them as they list but so to vrge and reteine them as orders necessarie not of the building it selfe but of the ornaments of the building of which orders he giueth his generall rule 1. Cor. 14.40 Let all things be doone honestlie and by order as we shall God willing sée further in this discourse thereon And such orders he séemeth also to include 1. Cor. 11.34 Other things will I set in order when I come But these orders are neither of the substance of the building nor be all of them expressed in the holie scriptures though some of them be nor all that are expressed are prescribed to all ages churches nor are things of necessitie to saluation Albeit they be not thervpon to be vnorderlie plucked vp or contemned being orderlie set downe established But that we ought diligentlie and reuerentlie to search the holie scriptures that we may finde what order our Sauiour Christ our onelie housholder hath set foorth in them by which he would haue his house or church to be directed in all thinges apperteining to the eternall saluation of vs men his vnprofitable seruants This is most true we ought so to do and to do the same with great diligence and no lesse reuerence least perhaps of neuer so good and zealous a meaning we should ouer-busie our selues contentiouslie for things not necessarilie perteining to the eternall saluation of vs men his vnprofitable seruants when we find any thing mentioned in the holie scriptures and not diligentlie and reuerentlie searching and considering the same streightwaies vrge it to be a generall order or an absolute rule that our Sauiour Christ
Lordes Doe ye shunne the names and shooue at the matter And so farre that Emperours Kings Queenes and all Christian Princes for all their supremacie must backarie and come after you or else it is not agreeable to good order of teaching If yée teache in this order it is such a lesson that I am a-fraide some can not easelie learne it But for my parte I hope it is not of anie pride in you Neuerthelesse I tell you playnelie as my friendes and bretheren leaue it for manie mislike it and suspecte it shrewdely if it be not of pride yet to be no orderlie kinde of Teaching nor good and plaine dealing with Christian Princes But you say it may be plaine to euery man by this reason The Church of God was perfecte in all her Regiment before there was any Christian Prince Yea the Church of God may stand and doth stande at this day in most bessed estate where the Ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fauourers By which it is manifest that the Regiment and Gouernment therof dependeth not vpon the authoritie of Princes but vpon the ordinance of God May it be plaine to euerie man by this reason Euerie reason or argument as it should be good and true both for forme matter so it ought to be directed to the purpose and to conclude the point that is to be proued And then to euerie man it is a plaine reason What nowe is the point here to be prooued It is not needefull nor agreeable to good order of teaching to begin first with intreating of the Supreame authoritie of Christian Princes in Eccles. causes This then beeing the point to be prooued must by necessarie consequence of the premisses be plainely argued and set downe in the conclusion or else euerie man may plainely see it is no plaine reason nor needfull to be yéelded vnto nor agreeable to good order of teaching but either some intricate Sophistication or some vnnecessarie conclusion litle or nothing pertayning to the purpose Plaine dealing sayeth the Prouerbe is a Iewell Let vs therefore sée this plaine reason and the parts thereof whether it conclude this point or no. The Church of God was perfect in all her regiment before there was anie Christian Prince Yea The Church of God may stande and doeth stande at this day in most blessed state where the Ciuill Magistrates are not the greatest fauourers What is the conclusion By which it is manifest that the Regiment and Gouernment thereof dependeth not vppon the authoritie of Princes but vpon the ordinance of God c. Loe howe plaine to euerie man and howe agreeable to good order of teaching in any figure and moode of Syllogisme this reason is framed and how patte the conclusion of this reason hittes the point to be prooued which they haue here so lustily auouched may be plaine to euerie man by this reason What will our Learned brethren here say Tush we meane not in saying it may be plaine to euerie man by this reason to reason so strictly according to the order of teaching in Logike but we reason at large Rhethorically This is ye wotte a Learned discourse and therefore we are not bounde to make short conclusions but according to our title to shewe our Learning in discoursing on it Call ye this discoursing It is a Discourse indéede but of the coursest fashion that euer I saw I know these Discoursers haue learning ynough though they spare it here yet if they should vtter it I would bee loath for my part to contende with them But sée howe affection in discoursing may carrie Learning and all quite away so farre from reason that here neither in matter truthe onlie which is principall is remembred nor in forme and manner anie good order of teaching is obserued nor yet in the conclusion the principall point is marked but gone cleane from whereunto all the reason should be leaueled Well yet since this is the best reason and all that here or hereafter they haue to make this matter plaine to euerie man least perhaps in the partes or in the conclusion there might lie hidden some further matter or reason then they would open plaine to euerie man let vs weighe the partes and conclusion better and lay them more open that euery man may perceaue plainely the plaine truthe and full validitie of this reason For this seemeth to be a great reason and to haue many small reasons in it First on this first and maior proposition of the same the Church of God was perfect in all her regiment before there was anye Christian Prince although they make no direct conclusion thereon yet they séeme to drawe an argument à priore from the former as pleading from the elder hande by senioritie and on that also procéede to the greater perfection and thereupon reason as it were in this manner That which in the regiment thereof was perfect before the other that is to be treated vpon before the other But the Church of God was perfect in all her regiment before there was anie Christian Prince What followeth hereupon but this Therefore the Church of God is to be treated vppon before Christian Princes But the question is not here betwixt the Church of God and Christian Princes whether of them shall first be treated vpon For whereas the name of the Church is an integrall worde and conteyneth the whole and the Christian Princes are though principall partes yet but particuler partes thereof included in the whole and so the question were as if one should aske whether is the man before the head or the head before the man they offer therefore herein an iniurie to Christian Princes as séeming to contende with the whole and so striued against themselues being partes of the whole And yet if a man would make an Anatomie of the whole body and beginne with the treatise of the head as the principall part though the head was not the first part that was formed but the heart or some other and afterwarde the heade yet beginning with the head and to treate first of the office and powers thereof hee should not doe a thing disagreeable to good order of teaching Or in the description of a house though the house was not perfect till all the partes were made if hee treated first of the court or of the hall or of the roofe which perhappes were builded last yet might hee in processe orderly describe the whole house For our question is not heere of anie part compared with the whole but in the whole of anie parte compared to another For as the Christian Princes are but partes of the Church of God so these foure estates that claime the direction of all Eccl matters in the Church are but partes of the Church also So that this first and Maior proposition might haue béene lesse captious as will appeare after in the viewe of the conclusion and a great deale plainer not to say
seemeth for it is manifest Whereas indéed not onelie it seemeth but is manifest to be a manifest violent and extorted conclusion Yea a manifest iniurie both to God to his churche and to all the authoritie of all godlie Christian Princes and most manifest wrong vnto her Maiestie Dooth her Maiestie in claiming the supreame authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes in that portion of the churche of God committed to her Maiesties gouernement or in not yéelding to this your desired regiment claime this that the regiment and gouernement of the churche dependeth vpon her authoritie And if ye say ye meane not her Maiestie but speake still vpon Princes at large though ye mend not the matter but make it worse yet would to God ye would once name soone to put the matter out of all suspition and let them beare the blame that claime such highe authoritie and absolute power that all the regiment of the Churche dependeth thereon No I am sure ye can name no godlie Prince that dooth so And yet sée not onelie how ye make this a manifest conclusion but how to aggrauate the matter and make it more odious ye conclude it also with an opposition betwéene the Princes authoritie and Gods ordinance saying by which it is manifest that the regiment and gouernement thereof dependeth not vpon the authoritie of Princes but vpon the ordinance of God As though the Princes authoritie were not also the ordinance of God As the Apostle expresselie saith Rom. 13. Let euerie soule be subiect to the higher powers for there is no power but of God And the powers that be are ordeined of God Whosoeuer therefore resisteth resisteth the ordinance of God And shall we now make an opposition betwixt the authoritie of Princes especiallie speaking of Christian Princes and Gods ordinance How could the verie enimies of vs both either the Papists or the Anabaptists haue roughe hewen a sharper conclusion against Christian Princes authoritie than this is Notwithstanding least Christian Princes should take iust offence not onelie to haue their authoritie thus cleane cut off but cast out of the doores also of the Churche of God with such a contumelie as an authoritie opposite to Gods ordinance and yet claiming all the Churches regiment to depend thereon This conclusion shall bee afterward smoothed with gentler termes and Christian Princes shall haue somewhat graunted to appease them And what in this conclusion is that authoritie that shall be now yéelded vnto Christian Princes Forsooth that God hath most mercifullie and wiselie so established the same that as with the comfortable aide of christian Magistrates it may singulerlie florish and prosper so without it it may coÌ„tinue and against all the aduersaries thereof preuaile For the Churche craueth helpe and defence of Christian princes to go forward more peaceablie and profitablie to the setting vp of the kingdome of Christe but all hir authoritie she receaueth immediatlie of God Whye what againe is this to thâ— supreame or to any authoritie of Christian Princes in ecclesiasticall causes Héere is some-what indéede for the Churches authoritie but we speake not now of the Churches authoritie so much as of the princes authoritie in the Churche except they will héere make a double oppositioÌ„ not onelie betwéene the princes authoritie and Gods ordinance but also betwéene the prince and the Churche and either of their authorities the princes and the churches and so enter into a new question which of these is greater But this is another great iniurie offered to christian Princes who are by this meanes as it were thrust out not onlie of their authoritie in the Churche but as being either none at all of the Churche saue as an opposite part thervnto or if a parte of the Churche yet a contentious parte for authoritie striuing with the Churche of the which them-selues are a principall parte and member For what else meane they by these wordes the Churche craueth helpe and defence of Christian Princes but that they seperate the Christian Prince and the Church And whom meane they then by the name of the Churche the whole oâ— particuler bodie thereof But all the people deale not with the gouernement of them-selues nor are their owne Gouernours which would bréed a great confusion in their gouernement and quickelie come to no gouernement at all If they meane these foure Tetrarches as it séemes they doo they likewise be but partes to the Churche as are the Princes and inferior parts of the Prince also except they will contend for superioritie aboue the Prince But inferior or superior they be but partes and cannot claime to them-selues any more the name of the Churche being but the Churches Ministers if all be so then the Prince or the people may Nor so much neither the Prince representing the head and the people being the bodie And if they say they bee Christes ministers so is the Prince also no lesse in his function then anye of them in theirs And let them looke to it thus vnder the name of the Churche to part all the churches authoritie among them and so oppose their authoritie as the churches to the Princes authoritie For thus played euen the verie popish Priests the common enemies to vs bothe And vnder pretence of the churches authoritie and that they were the churche the Ecclesiasticall persons and the churche men and that the Prince and the people were but méere laye and ciuill persons seperate from the churche they not onelie kept the people downe but also wroong all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes from the Prince And vsed euen the same tearmes of the churche and the Ciuill Magistrate that héere these our brethren vse Yea and the same reason and giue the christian Princes as much yea the selfe-same titles that héere our brethren doo While thus betwéene them bothe the christian Princes are spoiled of all their authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes For what is all that is giuen to christian Princes héere but to be onelie aiders helpers and defendors of the churche And doo not the Papists vse the same tearmes And giue as goodlie titles as these to christian Princes Yes and more and better too But what is this vnto regiment gouernement and authoritie No héere is nothing mentioned but the regiment and gouernement thereof Wherof Of the Prince No of the churche And the churche craueth helpe and defence of christian Princes but all her authoritie is immediatlie of God So that of the Prince she receiueth no authoritie at all For if sâ—ée receiue all immediatlie of God then shée receaueth none immediatlie nor mediatlie of the Prince And if the receaue none from the Prince but all of God immediatlie without anye authoritie of the Prince then is she exempted from all the authoritie of the Prince and all her authoritie is aboue all the authoritie of the Prince Yea the prince hath no authoritie at all ouer her And so not onelie the Prince for anye not supreame but any authoritie
the interpretation of the holy scripture For saith Ambrose by Prophets he vnderstandeth the scriptures interpreters which you say are your Doctors for as a Prophet foretelleth things that are not knoweÌ„ so also he is said to prophecie while he openeth the sense of the scripture that to many is hidden c For the church hath nothing greater more profitable then Christian doctrine the interpretation of the scripture c. And again he that prophecieth studieth on euery part to profit his Church For he that prophecieth performeth that for which cause the assembly is gathered together For he speaketh vnto meÌ„ edification exhortation consolation To wit while he expoundeth the secrecies mysteries of the scripture and out of theÌ„ doth either exhort to the studie of godlines or else coÌ„forteth those whoÌ„ faint heart or terror or dispaire or impacience of trauaile hath almost broken And this it is to speake to edification That is to say by speaking to endeuour tende therto that thou mayst profit the hearers But of this place it is cleare that a Prophet is the same with Paul that vnto vs is a Doctor a Bishoppe a Preacher or an Euangelist To this agréeth Aretius and saith Hereupon it appeareth that most great are the profites of interpretation whose partes are so bright And saieth Gualter vppon the same place Heereupon Doctors in the scriptures are called Edifiers And for this cause the Apostle called himselfe a Maister builder It pertaineth to these men before all things to care that they lay a good foundation that is to wit euen Christ which otherwher is called the foundation of the Proph. Apost And theÌ„ that vpon that alone they build nor mingle any stubble hey wood or ought else straunge froÌ„ Christ. Moreouer that diligently they plie the work with all care least sathaÌ„ with his mynes secretly wrought do vndermine it nor that it be ouer-turned with the whirle-windes stormes of tempestes nor finally that any as sande without lime of their owne voluntarie slide and fal away Ministers also must remeÌ„ber that there is need of continuall perpetuall building Partly because the infirmitie of the beleeuers requireth dayly a-new renewing partly because new stones must often be layde vpon this holy edifice that more may dayly be gathered to Christ and his kingdome be enlarged perpetually But in this place is euident the craft of Sathan who that hee might make all men more remisse and slouthfull in this studie deuised certaine edifices of Temples Towers Colleges and Chappels that are called eternall and are builded with great charges the spirituall Temple of the Lorde being in the meane time neglected which lyeth there almost altogether in ruyne where this frantike lust of building raygneth For eyther there are no builders at all or they are trecherous Who as the scripture speaketh of the Priestes of the Iewes hauing reiected that precious stone of the foundation do declare that all their help of saluation is in things improfitable pernitious Let them take heed therfore of their exaÌ„ples that will speake edification The other head of the eccles ministerie is Exhortation There is need of this for those who do not straightway obey when they are taught those things that are necessary to attain saluation For by nature we be more slow to heaueÌ„ly things And that is more hurtful we are delighted with sinnes and errors Wherfore there is need of rebuking our sins errors need of reprouing exhorting Whereof we haue most graue examples in the Prophets whom God in old time commanded as watchmen to blowe the trumpet of his word that they might stirre vppe all men to doe their duetie The Apostles each where followed these to say as nowe nothing of Christe whose most graue exhortations are read in the Euangelistes Therefore they do very greatly erre that at this day will haue none of this to bee done but as though the naked and simple doctrine might suffice do take most greeuously all rebuking and exhorting But howe necessary these are the licentiousnesse of most cruell wickednesse daylie encreasing and the most corrupt manners of all men aboundantly beareth witnesse but because the Church hath many that are exercised with tentation and all kind of afflictions there is added a third head consolatioÌ„ To the which appertaine those things that in Ezechiel are spoken of the office of the good faithfull Pastor when as the Lord promiseth that he will be hee which will require the loste sheepe reduce the expulsed binde vp the wounded strengthen the weake And in consideration of these things the ministers of the Churches ought so to behaue themselues that they alwaies remember they shall then at length be faithfull to God if that being intentiue with all their minde on the peoples studies maners they set foorth all these things most diligentlie according to the consideration of the hearers and of the times To this ought to be referred those things that S. Paule to Timothie writeth of cutting aright the word of God And the things that Christe deliuered vnder the parable of the Steward 2. Tim. 2. Matth. 24. Zuinglius on the 24. verse of the same chapter bréefelie knits vp all the matter saying To prophesie is to teache to admonish to comfort to reprooue and to rebuke And Peter Martyr vpon 1. Sam. 10. ver 9. But in the Primitiue church when Prophecy flourished what difference was there between a Prophete and a Doctor I aunswere that although the office of them both were al one yet were Doctâ—rs instructed by Maisters but Prophets spake on the sudden beeing mooued by the inspiration of the holy Ghost without anie helpe of man Thus doo all these and manie moe late and notable learned writers agréeing with the old Fathers and almoste with all the interpreters of the Scriptures accord that by this Prophet héere mentioned he meaneth a Doctor or Teacher But withall that this Prophet Doctor or Teacher communicateth in his teaching and interpreting of the Scriptures in all the parts of a Pastors office without restraint anye more then the Pastor is restrained from any part that apperteineth to a Doctor Yea as Peter Martyr noteth on the same chapter verse 6 on these words What shall I profite you except I speake vnto you either by Reuelation or by knowledge or by Prophecie or by Doctrine Chrysostome thinketh reuelation prophesie science and doctrine to signifie the same thing And that Paule by a certeine circumlocutioÌ„ expressed a gentle diminution that might easilie be perceiued of the hearers Other beleeue that these are diuerse giftes by which the Churche might be edified and some do fit these wordes thus that reuelation should bee ioyned to prophesie for Prophets doo not treate or speake but that thing that is reuealed to them And likewise they will that knowledge should cleaue to doctrine For no man teacheth right but that which before he knew
Earth the former of man who brought on the world the generall floud who called Abraham who brought the people out of the lande of Egypt who spake vnto Moses who disposed the lawe and sente the Prophets who hath prepared fire for the diuell and his angels That this GOD should be declared of the Churches to be the Father of our Lord Iesus Christe they that lift maye learne euen out of the Scripture it selfe and vnderstand it to be the Apostolicall tradition of the Churche sithe that it is a more auncient Epistle then these are which nowe teach falselie and feigne that there is another God aboue the Demiurgus or speaker to the people the maker of all these things that are But to this Clement succeeded Euaristus to Euaristus Alexander and then Sixtus the sixte ordeined from the Apostles and from him Telesphorus who moste gloriouslie suffered martyrdome And then Higinus after him Pâ—us after whome Anicetus but when Soter had succeeded Anicetus nowe in the twelfe place from the Apostles Eleutherius hath the bishoprike By this ordeining and succession hath the tradition and publication of the truthe which is from the Apostles come vnto vs. Thus saith this auncient father Irenaeus of the Bishops of Rome from the Apostles times vntill his daies Which sentence howsoeuer the Papists snatche thereat to abuse the simple with the name of tradition of succession of agréement with the Churche of Rome of Peter and Paule as the first Bishops there and as the head and principall Church of all other as it maketh nothing for them in any of all these things so notwithstanding for this point that all Priests or pastorall Elders are not equall but that one more peculierlie then the residue called the B. of that church had a superior and especiall gouernment of the same though not absolute and tyrannicall yet in iurisdiction aboue the rest of his brethren fellow priests or pastorall elders there that this was so ordeined of the Apostles and so continued from them till Irenaeus time is by this testimony of Irenaeus as clere as any thing can be that it maketh no whit for any popish tradition either of doctrine or of discipline necessary to saluation besides the manifest published and written word of God if a man would wish he cannot finde a better place then this in all the fathers For all the papistes vrging and writhing of the same And therfore this argueth that this episcopall superiority was then accounted to be no such vnwritten and necessarie doctrine but a matter of wel ordered gouernment practised vsually in the Apostles times and ordeined by the Apostles in many places and sufficiently apparant in the scriptures And as for the succession that Irenaeus speaketh of true it is that hiâ— fetcheth it from the Apostles and in a playne line without interruption till his time but he neither maketh a general and perpetuall rule thereof nor stretcheth it any further then he did reckon it nor did nor could make promise of further continuance nor standes on that time neither for the time sake nor for the persons sake that did succeede but onely and altogether for the doctrine which is the tradition that he speaketh of and in respect that they succeeded one after another not so much in the place as in the doctrine without alteration or interruption of the same for which cause he mencioneth the succession of them But now wheras the Bishops of Rome proceede further then these here reckoned vp to thâ—se that afterward added any other doctrine besides that which the Apostles in the scripture did deliuer or any other tradition superstitious and hurtful or any other discipline as necessary to saluation this place of Irenaeus doth nothing in the world help them and they alleadging this place in such a generall sort do manifestly wrest it and abuse Irenaeus and all those that beleeue them on the credite of this auntient Father Yâ—â— this place of Irenaeus if it were to be measured no further then the personall succession of the B. doth not only ouerthrâ—w that succession which they pretende from Peter to Clement but also the workes that go in Clementâ— name to be méere counterfeit Yea this succession hath had iarring about the reckoning of it euen in Ieroms days who saith in his catalogue that Clemens was the fourth B. of Rome after Peter for the 2. was Linus the 3. Anacletus Although the moste of the latine writers thinke Clemens was the 2. after Peter and Hierome tooke this opinion from Eusebius and Eusebius as him self confesseth from Irenaeus But none of them reckoned Cletus in this number which Dammasus Pletina Onuphrius and others doe So intricate and doubtfull is also the verie personall succession of these Bishoppes and yet all these 3. later writers agréeing with these thrée auntiente Fathers that Clemens did not succéede Peter and all these thrée Fathers speaking also of Clemens workes and mentioning this his notable Epistle to the Corinthians which we haue not and not mentioning any such works as are now thrust vpoÌ„ vs in ClemeÌ„s name it is a manifest argumeÌ„t that the Bishops of Rome that now are and long haue bin haue altered the tradition that their predecessor Clement heere alleadged and haue thrust out the true Clement and brought in a false and conterfeit Clement and so though they could agrée vpon the persons to be successors yet haue they agayne broken the plea of this succession that is héere vrged by Irenaeus Neither doth Irenaeus in pleading on this succession of these 12. Bishops whome our aduersaries make 13. reckon Peter or Paul themselues to haue bin in the number of the Bishops as all our aduersaries doe and the Popes make their chéefest crake thereon that Peter and Paule were the first Byshops there but onely saith Irenaeus The Church of Rome was founded and constituted of them as in the end of the same chap. he saith the Church of Ephesus was founded by S. Paul And yet these words also cannot be simplie vnderstood For albeit Paul was more among them euen by the manifest tradition of the scripture which both Clement Irenaeus héere do pleade vpon then can stand with any trueth that Peter had such continuance there as Paul had yet was the church founded and constituted at Rome before not only Paul did come among them but before he wrote his Epistle to them Neuerthelesse it may in some sense be safelie sayde that when as S. Paul came to Rome and founde the Church there neither such in multitude neither such in ripenesse of knowledge as the same went of them and as he hoped of them when he wrot vntothem Rom. 1. ver 8. Your faith is published throughout all the world and yet at S. Paules first comming to them they were such a slender and especially so rawe a company as appeareth Act â—8 Yet sith the text testifieth ver 30 31. And
foorth their heartes shoulde fayle them And many other toward Laborers that on the Lordes calling were but late entred into this Haruest begin to stande in a mammering and drawe backe except a number of these our too forwarde brethren And therefore indéede we had néede on all handes without ceasing moste earnestly to pray to God to thrust foorth moe laborers into his haruest and to comfort them that be thrust in by him least both Laborers haruest all waxe thinner and more backwarde than it dooth Praie Praie Now vpon all these foresaid meanes our brethren make their conclusion saying And in the meane time till God shall blesse vs with a sufficient number of learned Pastors to take some extraordinary and temporall order for ouer-seeing the Churches that although they cannot be all sufficientlie enstructed and gouerned yet so many shall not be altogether destitute of all knowledge and spirituall gouernement as there are nowe in this moste corrupt state of the Churche in which wee haue hetherto continued These are very hard spéeches against the present state of the Churche of Englande and in truth by no meanes iustifiable that it is a moste corrupt state of the Church and so hath hetherto continued For if it be now in a most corrupt state then was it not more corrupt in the time of all the popish superstitions If wee nowe as our brethren in their Preface to this Learned discourse confesse maintaine the true and holie faith and haue the Gospell freely preached as in this learned discourse they also graunt are we so corrupt as when manifest errors in doctrine and faith were maintained and the preaching of the Gospell suppressed and persecuted And yet we debarre them not altogether of the title of the Church though a Church exceeding much corrupted Or doth the most corruption of the Church lie in matters or rather in formes of discipline Admitting we haue a discipline that were corrupted notwithstanding professing the holy truth in all pointes of faith and doctrine The Saxon Churches haue in some pointes the like discipline to that our brethren contend for and yet in some materiall pointes of the Lordes supper they hold as grosse if not farre grosser errors and corruption than doe the Papists And is our state being in that and all other pointes of doctrine most sincere more corrupt than theirs Which I speake not as insulting vpon them but with pitie and reuerence but onely to note our brethrens vnthankefull not acknowledging of our exceeding more sincere and farre better estate than theirs and manie others as the Grecians Armenians Indians Aethiopians c. which are yet acknowledged to be the the Churches of Christ albeit all differ in discipline and are not free from errors euen in doctrine which God be praised we are by our breth owne confession But why doe our Brethren thus exclaime on the estate of our Church as a most corrupt state Forsooth because as they saie and doe imagine there are many that are altogether destitute of all knowledge and spirituall gouernment If they meane Papists and wicked worldlings where are not some and that too many intermingled in the Church of GOD And so there may be many we graunt lamenting it among vs but not of vs. And the more I feare by reason of these garboyles among our selues But if they bée the children of God and the true Church indéede and haue yéeres of vnderstanding I hope nay I am sure there is none no not one such as is altogether destitute of all knowledge and spirituall gouernment set a side naturall Idiotes which are as infants and without discretion Nay not the most of the worldlie hypocrites are altogether destitute of all knowledge of God and of his word and of all partes of spirituall gouernment although they knowe not all pointes or manie pointes not so exactlie as other doe or as their selues should doe I speake not this to defende anie mannes default and corruption in these thinges but to shew that this is a greate deale more aggrauated than eyther needeth or is true or than our Brethren haue anie iust cause to accuse so hainouslie the whole state of the Church of England to bee a most corrupted state But sée nowe howe our malecontented Brethren finding such a grieuous fault of this most corrupt state of the Church though they might haue all these meanes that they haue heere deuised to reforme the same graunted vnto them yet are they faine in the end to confesse that this their Learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment cannot take place but that they must take some extraordinarie and temporall order for ouerseeing of the Churches in the meane time vntill GOD shall blesse vs with a sufficient number of learned pastors So that they cannot for all these meanes helpes prouisions supplyes desires or anie other thing that they are able with all their learned heads consulting together imagine howe their Ecclesiasticall regiment should be set vp And yet wée must first downe out of hande and awaye with that Ecclesiasticall regiment that we haue cre euer not onelie theyrs shall come in place but or euer wee haue or can yet deuise how wée shall deale in the meane time till GOD shall blesse vs with a sufficient number of learned pastors Which when this till and this sufficient number will be filled vp to our Brethrens contentation is not héere limited by them nor we are able to coniecture But coulde not our Brethren haue forséene this before which héere now after all their debating and deuising they beginne to sée and are driuen to confesse And how then must all Pastors that bee not learned preachers be presentlie turned out and no longer retayned Or if they may lawfullie for a time which with all when it shall stint is vncertaine continue still and bée retained how then are these thinges either true or tollerable in them Shall wee tollerate such notorious and most corrupt wickednesse as they crie out vpon till God shall blesse vs with a sufficient number of learned pastors And till GOD shall thus blesse vs what extraordinarie and temporall order of ouerseers of the Churches will God blesse if hee haue flatlie forbidden all other than that onelie order which our Brethren pretend that God so straightlie hath commanded Or what extraordinarie or temporall order can or dare anie or all the Church auouch or presume to take vpon them to appoint or tollerate anie time If the ouerseers that our Brethren vrge and the orders of Ecclesiasticall gouernment which they set downe bee of GOD commaunded for ordinarie and perpetuall to all ages and Churches either they woulde haue vs wilfullie to transgresse Gods commaundement without anie speciall warrant on presumption of their dispensation for a time or else they must néedes graunt and that is indéede the verie truth which they dare not for shame openlie confesse although of fine force they are constrayned
the whole Church but onely such prayers as he his owne selfe eyther hath before hande made and conned by roate or such as without any premeditation or committing to memorie he doth in his head conceaue euen as he vttereth them with his mouth and so at that instant make them this we vtterly deny And not to suspect here wtout good cause that our Breth vnderstand this terme of making publike prayers in this sense not only their wordes here following do plainely expounde their meaning when they saye It apperteyneth to the Pastor to conceaue publike prayers and it is a common phrase among our Brethren that such and such a one is an excellent conceauer meaning that he can make godly prayers but also that they can not away with formall reading as in contempt they call it and a prescribed forme of prayer But to confute this and to proue that a prescribed forme of the diuine seruice for the publike prayers besides the reading of the scriptures in appointed courses and orders is a thing lawefull and profitable First the Iewes had the same before and in and after Christes time not onely as perteyning to the ceremoniall but to the morall lawe for the obedience of the first table perteyning to the worshippe of God Numb 6.22 c. The Lorde spake to Moses saying speake vnto Aaron and to his sonnes saying thus shall ye blesse the children of Israell and say vnto them the Lorde blesse thee and keepe thee the Lorde make his face to shine vpon thee and be mercifull vnto thee the Lorde lift vp his countenance vpon thee and giue thee peace c. And although they had many of their publike prayers beeing mixt with hymnes thankesgiuings not onely sayde but song also yet were they such not only as their selues made or conceaued were they neuer so learned men but such as either Moses or Samuell or Dauid or Esdras or some other Prophete especially appointed thereunto by God had drawen out and prescribed vnto them As may appeare 1. Chron. 9. where after he had shewed ver 22. c. how Dauid and Samuell the feer had established the porters and other officers ver 33. he sayth And these are the singers the chiefe fathers in the Leuites which dâ—elt in the chambers and had none other charge For they had to doe in that businesse day and night And speaking of Dauid who made the most paâ—t of the Psalmes in the 16. Chapter ver 4. And he appointed certaine of the leuites to minister before the Arke of the Lorde and rehearse and thank and praise the Lorde God of Israell And vers 7. Then at that time Dauid did appoint at the beginning to giue thankes to the Lorde By the hande of Asaph and his brethren Whereon sayth the Geneua note Dauid gaue them this psalm to prayse the Lorde signifying that in all our enterprises the name of God ought to bee praysed and called vpon psalme 105. Thus doe our brethren apply these doinges of Dauid vnto our estate And in the 25 chapter ver 2. He mencioneth those that were vnder the hande of Asaph which sang prophesies by the commission of the king Thus did Asaph then set foorth the publike prayers endited prescribed by Dauid Although he as diuers think conceiued made many psalms and Prayers and prescribed then to others Likewise 2. chron 29. verse 27. And Ezekiah commaunded to offer the burnt offering vpon the Alter and when the burnt offering began the song of the Lorde beganne with the trumpets and the instruments of Dauid king of Israell and all the congregation worshipped singing a song c. All which orders and formes of publique prayer at the Diuine seruice though the Iewes afterward corrupted Esdras after the captiuitie recollected set againe in order Which though they were eftsoones corrupted and intermingled especially with the Pharisees traditions yet til and in the time of Christe they had at the diuine seruice the ordinary courses of reading the Lawe and Prophets as appeareth by S. Luke 4. vers 16.17 c. Where the booke of the Prophet Esay was deliuered to Christ. And by that saying in the person of Abraham to the rich glutton they haue Moses and the prophets let theÌ„ hear them Luke 16.29 Which Paule testifieth in his sermon to the Antiochians Acts. 13.27 For the inhabitants of Ierusalem and their rulers because they knewe him not nor yet the wordes of the prophets which are read euery saboth day c. And that this was the auntient order Iames the byshop of Ierusalem in the determination of that famous assembly holden by the Apostles Act. 15. ver 20. sayth For Moses of olde time hath in euery city them that preach him sithe that hee is reade in the synagogues euery sabboth day And heere also is the publique reading called a preaching With which exercises they especially adioyned the reading also of the Psalmes and other solemn publique prayers of the Scripture For which principal cause Christ saith of the Temple Math. 21.13 It is written mine house shall bee called the house of prayer c. And Act. 3. Peter and Iohn went vp together into the Temple at the ninth hower of prayer Which orders were of Christe so little improoued that not onelie as Luke declareth cap. 11.1 that one of the Disciples sayde vnto him Maister teach vs to pray as Iohn also taught his disciples desiring that they might haue some prescribed form of praier set downe vnto them but that also Iohn baptist had taught some forme to his Disciples Which request Christe did so little mislike that he himselfe also taught his Disciples among other preceptes a prescribed forme of prayer which the Euangelists wrotte and all Christians doe vse as the Lordes prescription Which is a strong warrant vnto vs that so long as all formes of prayers are according to that platforme of prayer they may most safely be prescribed For it serueth not only for priuate but for publike prayer Nowe although besides this onely forme of prayer prescribed by Christ we finde no form set out that the apostles or the primitiue church immediately after them did vse or prescribe to be vsed because they hauing that full measure of the spirite of God namely the Apostles Euangelistes Prophets Bishops Pastors and Elders yea the moste of all the faythfull people in these dayes so that they might well make conceiue their publique prayers before the Congregation euen as the spirite of God suggested in their heart gaue them vtterance in their mouths yet because that in the publike assemblies the Apostles prescribed the writteÌ„ scriptures to be read as Col. 4. ver 16. And wâ—en this epistle is read of you cause that it be read in the church of the Laodiceans also that ye likewise read the Epistle writâ—en from Laodicea and as they vsed that so no doubt did they vse to read in their publike assemblies the
to him as yet they haue not hetherto done nor at this present doe And by his grace wée shal not need to feare that they will euer giue any like occasion of such inconuenience for the time to come heereafter But our brethren to terrifie vs with this terrible example as those that are already growne into the danger of the Romish Church abuses do apply their example saying For is not this opinion alreadie growne into a great many mens heades that the Seruice maie not giue place to a Sermon no though the time bee not sufficient for both And are there not manye that had muche rather heere a chaunted Mattens and Euensonge than a godlye and learned Sermon yea they frequent the one refuse the other These things me thinkes are spoken a little too captiously if they will pardon my too playnnesse on the other side in this tearme that the seruice meaning the diuine seruice or publike prayer should giue place vnto a Sermon For the time and occasion of daunger may bee suche that there may be more néede of publike prayer to those that are already grounded in faith which at other times before they hearde out of the worde than of hearing a Sermon at that instant But if there be no such necessitie to imploy the time wholly in Prayer as the Apostles did when Herod had caught Peter and put him in prison Act. 12. ver 5. and when the Israelites in their afflictions did so often cry vpon God to send them helpers I do not think that this opinion is growne into a great many mens heades meaning the Protestants that the Seruice may not giue place to a sermon though the time be not sufficient for both For although they do well zealously to loue the diuine seruice deuoutly to make their publike prayers vnto God religiously to heare his holy word which also at the same time is publikly reade vnto them yet if they may haue withall a godly learned sermon there are no good Protestants but they would wish with all their hartes if the streightnesse of the time as our brethren héere say be not sufficient for both that some part of the seruice shoulde bee lefte off and giue place to the preaching and hearing of the godlye Sermon And there are such prouisoes in the booke of common prayer already prouided for that purpose yea though there were no other Sermon but an Homilie But our brethren not content with this that the diuine seruice should be cut the shorter to the ende that the Sermon might be the longer would haue the diuine seruice to giue place to the sermon that is to say the one comming in the place of the other the diuine Seruice shoulde bee thrust cleane out of place that all the place and all the time might be taken vp of the sermon If they meane not so then will our prouisoes sufficiently serue the turne and the Sermon shall haue place and time inough and welcome whensoeuer it commeth yea the seruice also will giue some place and yet not be turned out of place For howsoeuer it may fall out at some odd times in which also the whole seruice giues the whole place and resignes vp all the time yet ordinarily there is time and place so sufficient for both that the one néede not shoulder out the other And a sober Preacher will modestly tarry his due time and let the publike prayer and diuine seruice procéede on a Gods name till it come to his conuenient opportunity to preach As S. Paule and Barnabas accustomed to do Which appeareth Act. 13. ver 14.15 c VVhen they departed from Perga they came to Antiochia a citie of Pisidia and went into the synagogue on the Saboth day and sat downe And after the lecture of the Lawe and the Prophetes the Rulers of the synagogue sent vntothem saying Ye men brethren if ye haue any word of exhortation for the people say on Then Paule stoode vp and beckened with his hande and said Men of Israell and yee that feare the lord hearken c. By which it appeareth not onely that they had an ordinary forme of the diuine seruice and publike prayer and a reading of the lawe and the Prophetes although ordinarilye they had no sermon and yet were ready to heare one whensoeuer any such fatherly men came among them which appeared vnto them to haue the gifte of God to expounde his word vnto them and to giue them some comfortable exhortation therupon yet as they stinted not this ordinary exercise of the diuine seruice though no such extraordinary Preachers came vnto them so when they admitted them and desired them as glad of them yet they made not their diuine seruice to giue place to them ceased their ordinary publike prayers or the lectures of the Law and the Prophetes But after these things done then they offered them license to preach and requested them to giue them exhortations And euen as they vsed this moderation order in the hearing of the diuine seruice of the Sermons so S. Paule tarieth while their publike prayers and their Lessons out of the law and the Prophets were ended and then he satisfieth their request and so entreth into his sermon And if all our brethren Preachers would marhe and follow this example all good men would like better of their modesty And perhaps the rashnesse vndiscretion of some to cut of all the diuine seruice and ordinary forme of publike prayers and so to bring the same into contempt to haue themselues heard in the Pulpit might bréede such an opinion in many mens heades Although this opinion also mighte bee growne into a great many mens heades on other occasions that the seruice may not giue place to a sermō no though the time be not sufficiēt for both But is their infirmity be it a wrong or right opinion a sufficient reason to take the publike prayers and the diuine seruice cleane away or that there should be no forme therof at all or being rightly vsed with a moderate time y◠time also sometime abridged to giue the more place vnto the sermon may that be truly said to thrust out preaching As for chaunting of the Mattens and Euensong if to chante bee that which in latine is Cantare in English our proper worde is to sing and the Psalmes and Hymnes and other ioyfull or dolefull ditties as our brethren their selues do vse may be sung and Mattens and Euensong are but the vsuall tearmes of the matutine or morning euening ordinary publik diuine seruice thē is it not vnlawful to heare euē a chanted Mattens and Euensong so that the chaunting or singing of them take not away the edifying by them Especially when no other kynde of matter is sung or chaunted but such as our brethren cannot deny if their owne senses be not enchaunted but may be chaunted well inough As for the Lessons they are
ceremonies of circumstances should rather in thankefull obedience yeeld vnto her Maiestie and to all our Gouernours vnder God and her and to the state already established or her Maiestie and all our Gouernours and the whole estate established should heerein yéelde to these our Brethren there lies the question And I referre it being a question for some certaine order to be had in indifferent things vnto the determination and order of all indifferent iudgements But this is that also which our Brethren find fault withall that these some which they say are so precise in vrging ceremonies are alwaies hauing in their mouthes that sentence of S. Paule 1. Cor. 14.40 let all thinges be done decently and according to an order And is not this a good sentence of S. Paule for them for our Brethren too and euery one of vs when we haue occasion to treate of such matters to haue alwayes in our mouthes to haue alwayes in our heartes to haue alwayes in our actions and performance What meane therfore our Brethren héere to finde fault with this that any should alwayes haue so excellent a sentence in their mouthes for the kéeping of order especially they that with authoritie vrge it Doth not this sentence mightily confirme it when it sayth that all thinges making no exception of ceremonies or of any indifferent thinges to be vsed in the Church assemblies but as they must be done in a comely manner so they must be done in order and can an order be kept more orderly than when a standing and set order is appointed by those that haue authoritie thereunto and they precisely vrge it without violating the obseruation of the same Would our Brethren haue men to lay aside this sentence of S. Paule out of their mouthes out of their heartes and out of their actions and continue to breake this rule Either that all thinges or that any indifferent thing ceremonie or circumstance should in the Church assemblies be done without vrging of an appointed comlinesse and without vrging any authorized prescribed order But our Brethren not onely finde fault with them that haue this sentence alwayes in their mouthes but say they and doe so little remember that the Apostle in that long chapter laboureth altogether to driue all thinges to aedification or else to driue them out of the Church If they haue alwayes that sentence of S. Paule in their mouthes in such sorte that they doe so little remember in their heades this drift of the Apostle and this his other sentence in the same chapter ver 26. let all thinges be done to aedification then doe they greatly forgette the principall thing that in these matters they ought to haue remembred But if our Brethren remember this as a chalenge to burdē the Magistrate those in authoritie that vrge these thinges in maner a foresayde that they haue alwayes in their mouthes the one sentence of S. Paule for comlines and order and remember so little the other for aedification which the Apostle likewise laboured to driue all thinges vnto then their selues doe so little remember their dutie to their betters and so much forget the truth that if other had sayde it then our Brethren I would haue remembred them of this olde sentence oportet esse memorem they know who Neyther can these two that is comlines order be destitute of this other that is aedification For the name aedifying being a generall name to builde and set vp or ioyne together the mysticall bodie of Christe doeth not the comely proportion of the aedifice not onely beautifie and commende the forme but the orderly disposing of all the partes thereof conteine and maintayne euen the verie aedifying of the whole frame And therefore when S. Paule had sayde before ver 26. Let all thinges be done to aedification he knitteth vp all his conclusion of that matter with this sentence that our Brethren would not haue men to take so often in their mouthes Let all thinges be done decently and according to order Both making eyther of these comelinesse and order to stretch their iurisdictions as farre as aedification euen to all thinges vnderstanding them of all such thinges as are to be done in the Church assemblies and also to be as requisite and necessarie in their kindes as aedification is if not to bee some principall partes their selues of aedification And if as our Brethren say we must remember that Saint Paule laboureth in all that long Chapter to driue all thinges to aedification why may wee not as well or rather saye when he concludeth all with the other twaine that our Brethren must also remember this that S. Paule laboureth in all that long Chapter to driue all thinges to decencie and to an order May not all those things that went before be more properly sayde to be driuen to that that is the last conclusion then to be driuen to that that is in the beginning or in the middle of the treatise But if this be true that he laboureth to driue all to aedification yet this is apparant that he concludes all with decencie order then either is comlinesse order conteyned in aedification or aedification conteyned in comlinesse and order Or else these thinges beeing not conteyned the one in the other but thinges seuerall this is not true that he laboureth altogether in the long chapter to driue all things to aedification labouring also to driue not only some thinges but all thinges to decencie and to order as well and as much as to aedification But he that laboreth altogether to driue all things to one thing doth not labour to driue thē to any other S. Paule therefore labouring to driue all things withal to these two if they be seuerall matters frō aedification this can not be true that he laboreth altogether to driue all things to aedification except we either comprehende the name of decencie order in the name of aedificatiō or the name of aedification in decencie order to salue our Breth assertion from conuiction of an apparant vntruth so much as we can And so indéed it may in a very good sense bee vnderstoode for there is an aedifying in all these respectes Not onely when the people do vnderstande those thinges that are spoken and receaue instruction comfort by them whereby they are sayde to be aedified that is in knowledge and faith to be builded vpon Christ the rocke but also when any publike action in the Church is done in such sorte as S. Paule in that long chapter laboureth to haue it doone to wit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 comely honestly or decently and kéepeth suche degrée of place and time that it is done 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to order albeit the matter be but a ceremonie of apparell as the vncouering or couering of mens and womens heades while they prayed or prophecied which being no matter of doctrine Saint Paule precisely vrgeth though not so precisely
for extraordinary preaching also bothe in the open assemblies especially in their priuate houses though diuerse other Matrones or men also besides their owne housholde be assembled If this bée not here Caluines meaning I conceaue him not But I rather thinke it because in the place that he referreth himselfe vnto as wee haue séene there is no ambiguitie in his wordes Nowe although that both these wordes of S. Paule and Caluines thus farre yéelding thereunto be apparant inough to any that liste to sée it yet when it commeth to our Brethrens exposition in their notes on the Geneua translation all this séemes so suddenly and so easily wiped awaye that we would meruell that Caluine which was a man in most points of such excellent iudgement and is so vehement against this point in women and of purpose mouing and beating this question and shaking it off with this foresayde aunswere and yet in the ende relenting to it though afterward he go away from it as farre againe as wee shall sée anon did not espie so easie and so readie an aunswere as this But plus vident oculi quà m oculus one man sées not all and therefore it is lesse marueile if so singular a man also as God be praysed Beza is and other that so saye with him comming after Caluine and séeing more perhaps than he haue founde out a fitter fuller aunswere Let vs therefore sée also what Beza and these men sawe say hereon Upon these wordes 1. Cor. 11. ver 4. Euery man praying and prophecying c. sayth the Geneua note this is referred to common praying and preaching for although one speake yet the action is common so that the whole Church may be sayde to praye or preach Which exposition our Brethren chiefely take out of Beza euery man sayth he the vniuersall particle taketh away the difference of orders and of age so farre foorth as appertayneth to that which is treated vpon praying or prophecying Because the Apostle treateth of comlinesse to be kept in the common assembly therefore I take these things as of the publike praier and prophecy that is of the treatise of the scripture Howbeit I referre it not only vnto him which cōceaueth the praier or interpreteth the place of scripture but also to the assembly of the hearers sitting together For although that one speake notwithstanding the action is common so that the whole company may be sayde by this meanes to pray and prophecie For first of all the reasons which the Apostle bringeth are common to all the men that are conuersant in the Church yea I graunt also to them that are without the Churches assembly But for all that the question propounded and the conclusion of not couering the head doe shewe those reasons to be referred vnto the circumstance of that time and place wherein the Church commeth together Moreouer if ye referre this to one person of the partie praying or prophecying the member opposite concerning a woman will not agree thereto When as the Apostle afterwarde permitteth not vnto a woman that she should speake in the Church that is in the common assembly 14. g. 34. the reasons which he bringeth why they ought to be couered it is manifest inough that they appertaine to euery one of the women that are conuersant in the publike assemblie of the Church This is Bezaes interpretation and iudgement on this place and his reasons also for the same To whome accordeth Hyperius and in part Hemingius Nowe although in not subscribing as our Brethren do to thè iudgement of so learned and profound a man with other I shall more than hazarde my selfe to the hard iudgement censure of our Brethren yet with dutifull submission crauing none other acquittance at Beza his handes than euen that héere he beginning first withall that this vniuersall particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euery man taketh awaye the difference of orders and of ages in praying or prophecying that is interpreting or treating of anie place in the scripture may be my warrant against the order of Bezaes dignitie or the grauitie of his age in this matter And sithe that he dissenteth many times and also heerein from other and from Caluine his owne Master being frée as Horace sayde nullius addictus iurare in verba Magistri but in this respect professing him to be our only Master that saith vnto vs for one is your Master or Doctor to wit Christe Matth. 23.8 and 10. and in this point he standeth not on man but fortifieth his interpretation with his reasons why may it not be lawefull for any other and so for me to alleage also my plaine and simple reasons As S. Augustine sayth well herein Res cum re causa cum causa ratio cum ratione Waye matter with matter cause with cause reason with reason and then iudge who list whether Bezaes interpretation be a sufficient aunswere or his reasons sufficiently maintain his interpretation First he granteth which also I yéelde vnto that this prayer and this prophecie are héere vnderstoode of publike actions Secondly that this publike prayer and publike prophecie is not to be referred to him onely that conceaueth the prayer or interpreteth the place of scripture but of the whole auditorie sitting together This also in some part sense may be granted vnto him namely for publ praier Because though in the conceaued publike prayers they can not all conceaue the same altogether and so in conceauing pronounce it as he doth except they say the same publike forme of praier with him as the Lords prayer or some other appointed which they know before hand yet if he make pauses for them al to say after him the whole assemblie euen altogether at once as we haue prooued may without confusion with one hart with one voice ioyne thēselues together in the publ prayers And this also haue our Brethren graunted vnto so it be done by singing we inferre it may as well be done by saying Or else vnderstanding Beza his words disiunctiuely euery man that is saith he the whole cōgregation that is say I euery man or any man of the whole congregation vnderstanding the same of such especiall exercises in those times or of extraordinarie occasiō euē in our times Vnto which applying these words as Beza sayth this vniuersall particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euery man expelleth all difference of orders ages so in such cases all the assembly that is euery one or any of the assembly to whō God did giue a speciall gift of conceauing a good praier might thē may yet in like case publikly make the same yea in like maner haue prophecied also But these things were not done in the conceauing of these publike prayers or in the treatises of the scripture by euery man of the whole congregation altogether at once And in these senses I denie not Bezaes interpretation But whē here vpon he goeth further and drawes it to this that
thing bee reuealed to another that sitteth by let the first hold his peace For sayth Caluine place and liberty while the matter requires it is left vnto all so that no man rush in out of season rather fauouring him-selfe than seruing the necessity But this modesty he requireth of all that euery one giue place to another bringing foorth any better matter and in the next vers For yee may all prophecy one by one that all may learne and receiue consolation First when he sayth all saith Caluine hee comprehendeth not the vniuersall number of the faythfull but only those that were instructed with a faculty Then he signifieth that the turns of them al were equall but as it shoulde bee for the profite of the people euery one of them either oftener or seldomer to come foorth to speake as though hee shoulde say there is none shall lye idly perpetually but the oportunity of speaking shall offer it selfe nowe to these and nowe to those He addeth that all may learne VVhich though it appertaine to the vulgar people notwithstanding it agreeth to the prophets and properly these Paule pointeth out for no man shall at any time be a good teacher that shall not yeelde himselfe to be taught and is alwayes ready to learn c. By all which it is moste apparant that these prophecyinges whosoeuer were the speakers then were not spoken by them in the person and name of all the Congregation nor yet of all those that had the gift thereof but in the person of God whose spirite spake in them This interpretation therefore of Beza cleane ouerthroweth all S Pauls whole treatise of these gifts So that the reuerence reserued of so worthye a man and of other with with him this in my opinion is but a méere euasion so farre it is off from any shewe of a right interpretation of that sentence euerye man praying or prophecying with his heade couered dishonoureth his head And euery woman c. Neither are his reasons as me thinkes of greater weight than the deuise of this interpretation His first reason is this The reasons that the Apostle bringeth are common to all the men that are conuersant in the assembly of the Church and also I graunt of those that are out of the assembly of the Church but for all that the question propounded and the conclusion the head not couered do declare those reasons to be referred to the circumstaunce of the time and place wherein the church assembleth What can bee gathered héereupon but that the Question and conclusion of vncouering the heade doe restrayne his reasons to those that bée in the Churches assembly which otherwise would stretch further and what conclusion is this that this worde praying or prophecying eyther in man or woman praying or prophecying must néedes bée vnderstoode for the action of one in the name and person of the whole assemblye Nay rather howe doth not this reason if it bée any reason ouerthrowe Bezaes interpretation For sithe the Question propounded and the conclusion is of the beeing bare-headed If the Ministers prophecying bee the prophecying of all the men there assembled then must all the men that be there assembled be bareheaded too But this was not the Apostles meaning nor it was not then nor euer in custome that all the men that heare the preacher or prophecier should also be bareheaded Therfore this is not the true interpretation of Paules meaning that his preaching or prophecying is al their preaching or prophecying and that they vsed no other but by his mouth His second reason is this Moreouer saith Beza If ye restore it to the one person of him that prayeth or prophecieth the mēmber of the sentēce opposite cōcerning the womā wil not agree therto And why will not that next sentence concerning the Woman agree to this sense that some one Woman also might prophesy in the assembly forsoothe saith hee Sith that the Apostle permitteth not a Woman to speake in the Church that is in the common assembly What is this else but petitio principij to take that as a clear case to be beforehand granted that all the Question depends vpon howe these words of the Apostle should be vnderstoode whether as a simple debarre in all cases or as but from an ordinary function of speaking in the Church Neither is the Womans couering of her head for that it is common to other women in the church so well as to her that preacheth or prophecieth any reason that she may no more speake than they doe for that is not the reason that she speaketh at all But she speaking vpon some other occasion she is bound much more to keepe that comelinesse that other Women in the Church are bound vnto and so much more bounde than men are in as much as it is free for the men in the Church assembled and not speaking to be either couered or not couered with comelinesse ynough which is not so in women though not speaking But by what warrant doth Beza make these to be membra opposita the Man and the woman indeede here is an opposition made of Paule in the couering or vncouering of their heades But he neither makes any opposition in the persons and much lesse but al resemblāce nay rather one and the same action in them both for the praying and for the prophesying For if the vniuersal particle taketh away the difference of orders and of age in the respect of prayer and prophecying It lesse considereth the person or the sexe but the matter prayed or prophecied and the newe creature in Christe Iesus or the Spirite of God that speaketh in them But let be the opposition in the Pastors or in the praying or prophecying Goe to then saith hee but if the woman pray not publikely nor prophecy in her own person then contrariorum eadem est ratio The prayer and prophecying of the man is not in his owne person But sée now how this reason returned home againe doth beate his Maister The opposition saith he is in the persons of the man of the woman and in the praying or prophesying of them Is it so Go to then say I but if the man pray or prophecy publikly not by the mouth of another but by his owne mouth as I haue I trust so fullye and at large proued and if that will not satisfie I shall God willing being called thereto prooue it better But contrariorum eadem est ratio of contraries there is one and the same order or reason therefore the prayer and prophesying of a woman héere mencioned and opposed to man◠is after th◠same manner and order vttered not by the mouth of another but by her owne mouth Yea if it were not vttered her prayer and her prophesying as well by her mouth as the man by his mouth but a thirde person shoulde vtter it for them both then howe must that person representing both the person of
rather by grace by especiall calling whether it be in Women or men but Caluine himselfe expounds this saying that women are borne to obey by nature that is the by the ordinary law of God Neither yet anaileth this exposition For we stand not of the ordinary law of God but of extraordinary priuileges and as Caluine saith vpon such necessities as wherein a womans voice may be required But what now is Caluines conclusion of all this For al wise men haue alwaies refused the gouernment of women euen as of a monster and thâ—rfore heauen and earth shoulde be after a sorte mingled together if women should snatch vnto them the right of teaching As for snatching vnto them the right of teaching might perhappes bee called in some sense the mingling together of heauen and earthe And so were it also if any man should snatch the right hereof vnto him except hee had some calling ordinary or extraordinarye or some necessity or occasion rather drawe him than he should snatche it vnto him And the like and much more we say of women But if women by any respect bée called extraordinarily thereunto or as Caluine said before there be such necessitie as wherin a womans voice may be required shall we call this snatching vnto them the right vse of teaching the mingling of heauen earth together and that is worst of all shal we herupon condemne all gouernmeÌ„t of womeÌ„ if by no means they might haue any allowance or permissioÌ„ of this gouernmeÌ„t to teach or prophecy in the Church May ther no right grow to a woman of gouernment besides teaching yea that wherunto she may be born And can Caluine then iustifie this conclusion that all wise men haue alwaies refused the gouernment of women as it were a monster What a monstrous saying is this to haue escaped so wise so godly a man Did not Caluine himself confesse bifore that some womeÌ„ were godly gouernors saying If anie obiect Debora and the like which we reade to haue ben sometimes by the commandement of God placed ouer the people for to gouerne them Were there no wise men in all Israell in those daies when such women were gouernours or did those wise men account their gouernment monstrous or refuse it being appointed by Gods commandement or did euer any wise man that had the true wisedome of God or shall anie such wise man among vs now account this doing of God to be monstrous what a monstrous rebellioÌ„ were this not onely the against the state of them but against God Was it this that Caluine meant before when he said in his aunswere to the obiection of their gouernment this could god do which is free from all law VVhat to set vp such gouernours as all wise men should refuse as monsters Verily no godly wise man can allow this saying nor anie excuse it or can salue it from a foule ouershot and manifest vntruthe And if Caluine had better considered it hee woulde neuer haue vttered suche a sentence or haue blotted it out or haue retracted it But thus doth affection carry wise men and otherwise very godly men sometimes awaye euen from that which their selues cannot denie to be of God and not to be monstrous but to be a godlie and very gracious worke of God both for the aduancement of his glory and the great helpe and comfort of his people And is this now the drift of our brethr in this matter to refuse as monstrous confounding heauen as earth together al womens gouernment in gods Church I hope yet a great deale better of Caluines iudgement in this matter bicause howsoeuer héere he fowly ouer shot himselfe and contrarieth himselfe in his owne tale as we haue plainely seene yet in other places he better acquiteth himselfe namely in his Epistle prefixed to his last edition of his learned Commentaries vpon Esay dedicated to our most gratious soueraign Lady Quene Elizabeth where so highly he extolleth her Maiesty not oneliewith honorable words stile of titles To the most excellent Queene and renowmed no lesse by her vertues than by her royall giftes ELIZABETH c. but also in his matter declaring that where he had dedicated the said commentaries to King Edward her Maiesties most godly Brother Me thought saith he I should commit no absurditie if vnto the name of the moste excellent King I should also adioine your name no lesse beloued and ioyful vnto al good men Yea rather not only the occasion offered but the necessitye seemeth to require that I shoulde craue the faithe of your patronage vnto this commentary at the banishment whereof I know that a great number of godly men in your dominion haue sighed Although my purpose is not so much to respect priuatly myne owne labour as humblye to beseech and by the holy name of Christe to entreate you that not onely with your fauour all the bookes that are sounde in faithe maye finde harbour againe in your England and may be there freely conuersant but that whereas religion in a shamefull manner was decayed that you would take the cheefest care thereof Whiche thing if that onelye sonne of God doe exact by his right of all the Kings of the earth hee holdeth you O most noble Queene bowden to performe this duetye For whereas you being the Kings owne daughter were not free from that fearefull storme that euen waightily hanged ouer the heades of all the godly he merueilously deliuering you safe therefrom albeit not vntouched or free from the feare of the daunger hath addicted you and all your studies to himselfe Of which deliuerance you ought so little to be ashamed that God hath giuen to you an ample and plentifull matter of reioycing conforming you vnto the image of his sonne Amongest whose praises our Prophete reciteth this that hee was exalted vnto the highest heigth of the coelestiall Empire out of the prison and state of an arraigned person But as it is no meane commendation to rehearse such an example so as often as you shall call to memory which by no obliuion ought at any time to slip away out of howe pitifull and doubtfull trembling you haue escaped God openly euen after a sort reaching out his hand vnto you you may withall remember that this end is set before you that with a constancy not afrighted and with an inuincible magnanimity you againe vpholde to him his right that is your champion and deliuerer And setting aside all businesses wherof I doubt not that a great heape of them will make a stur thereat in these beginnings of the kingdome haue you this care to restore his worship And if so bee Sathan with many and harde difficulties throwne in the waie attempt to cast in fearefulnesse or slownesse you are not ignorant from whence you should aske the confidence of proceeding couragiouslie which may ouercome all impediments Neither God which with his blessing vouchsafeth the actions of
conuenient necessitie as by lawe and order he is bound to do as likewise to ioyne in the celebration of mariage the man and the woman whose office should it rather be than the Pastors As for any absolute necessitie of saluation the thing it selfe is not so vrged nor necessarie as any particular expresse commaundement of God pertayning to his office otherwise than in generall and as he is the publike minister of the worde And this order being admitted by law prescribed it may be well auouched in this foresaid necessity that this churching that is to say the pronouncing of the publike prayers in the Church at the womans thankesgiuing is a necessarie part of the Pastors office As for that which followeth That she must weare a white rayle ouer her head when she goeth to Church by the midwife waighted home with the parishe Clerke with diuerse such like bables which in a well reformed Church are not to be suffered I thinke our Brethren that talke thus of rayles and bables were rather disposed disorderly to babble on womens matters than they would want matter to rayle on our Churches orders Doth our booke or any law prescribe the woman to weare a white rayle ouer her head when shee goeth to Church Or to be accompanied by the midwife Or to be waighted home with the parish Clerke Is not this a clerkely Learned Disc. to note these matters And why may not euē these things be done also as well as not done So that there be no superstition in thē as me thinkes there is none For what is the whit rayle or keuerchief but such an anciēt couer of the womans head as representeth the simplicitie antiquity of womens attire such as the auncient matrones of Asia Grece Rome are noted to haue worne And as yet in the East partes in Grecia Affrica the sober chast womē go with such white linnē couerture on their heads whē they go abroad euen to this day Which argueth that this attire arose not of any superstitiō at all but in the old time was the vsuall attire of honest matrones And not vnlikly but that as other parts of Grece did vse it so the attire that S. Paule mentioneth of womens couering their heads 1. Cor. 11. when they prayed in the congregation though he mention neither matter of lynnen wollen silke or cotten nor couler of white black or any other was not much different from the same And as for her companie who fitter among all her neighbours for diuerse considerations than her midwife And if the poore Clerke would not léese his fée accustomed or his dinner but would waight on her home or rather waight poore soule to fil his belly without hope wherof he would giue but sory attendāce aske him whether he minded more a bable or the table And must this also as a part of this Learned discourse of Eccl. gouernment be solemnly registred for a matter breeding and nourishing superstitious opinions in the simple peoples hearts which in a well reformed Church is not to be suffred These then are the great waightie matters wherefore our Brethren find fault with this order of womēs churching or cōming to the Church to yéeld their publike thanksgiuing to God for their childe and safe deliuerance after their child-birth for which causes they say it ought altogether to bee omitted But who séeth not that these quarels had béene better omitted and are altogether if not bables yet bubles of méere babbling if I may haue leaue to vse such termes rather than any causes of importance to omitte or take away this reuerend matronlike and comely order And that although any were so simple to conceaue superstitious opinions hereupon and though this white rayle also were left cleane off and that the midwife kept her selfe at home and that the Clerke lost his dinner too yet might this order of womens Churching beeing nothing but publike thankesgiuing in the Churche after their deliuerance continue in neuer so well reformed Churches and bee suffered with-out iust offence giuen well-inough The third quarell of our Brethren is at the maner of Buriall of which as they sayde before pag. 73. The other albeit it be to be retayned with a certain honestie yet is it not to be tyed to the proper office of a Pastor so procéeding page 75. they say As for the buriall of the dead because Sathan tooke occasion vpō Ceremonies appointed thereunto to sow the seede of many heresies in the Church as praiers for the dead Oblations for the dead Purgatorie c. also many superstitions as hallowing of Church-yardes distinctions of Burials as some in the Chauncell some in the Church and some in the Churchyeards some with more pompe as singing ringing c. some with lesse burying towards the East lightes and holy water bestowed on the dead c. it is thought good to the best and right reformed Churches to burie their dead reuerently without any ceremonies of praying or preaching at them because experience hath taught them what inconuenience may growe thereof by example of that which hath beene before Our Brethr. hauing so peremptorily condēned the other twain confirmation of children churching of womē as though they could be reteyned with no honestie for buriall they are somwhat yet more fauourable in saying it may be reteyned with a certaine honestie Whereas if at the least we should not aforde the dead thus much we should eyther let them rotte aboue the ground or cast them to the beastes or fishes as did the Capsians or let the birds eate thē as did the Hyrcans or the dogges eate thē as did the Bactrians or eate them our selues as did the Messagetians and the Derbites or hang them vpon gybbets as did the Tibarenes all which were no honestie at all but horrible vnnaturall sauagenesse or else we shold burne thē to ashes as did the Affricans the Romanes diuers other people as was the Ethnike maner amōg the Gentils or els why may we not be bold simply to say It is an honest thing to burie the dead But that the buriall of the dead may be reteyned albeit with a certaine honesty If our Brethren meane not simply heere the buriall of the dead but our manner of buriall which the booke prescibeth that it may be reteyned with a certaine honestie how speake they not then against themselues in speaking against our manner of their buriall if with a certaine honestie or any honestie at all it may be retayned But they say yet it is not to be tyed to the proper office of a Pastor So that they will stande to this that it may be retayned with a certaine honestie and will not vse heere precisely these wordes proper office and the manner of tying I graunt them also vpon necessitie or occasion both that other may burie the dead and that the dead also may be buried amongst vs
not doe their duety But those men ought first to haue made demonstration that their seniors haue this power whereof in present Paul speaketh Which thing when as by no argumēt it appeareth and neuerthelesse they deliuer to Sathan whome they will they do alike as if any would attempt to cleanse the lepers to rayse the dead to worke such other myraclous worke For because that in the olde time suche thinges were commonlye doone in the primitiue Church Thus agayne Gualter and on these graces and giftes of of God grounding this Ecclesiasticall Seniory not of the Worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Gouernmentes but on the former worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Powers betokening such power as is myraculous which although some Seniors in the Church than had it yet he alleageth the examples heereof that such onely exercised the same in Ecclesiasticall matters as were Ministers of the Word But howsoeuer these Seniours were or what power soeuer they had he maketh them and their power not to bée perpetuall but abiding a while onely for the state of that time and so to haue ceased after that the publike state of Christendome was setled and gouerned by such princes and Magistrates as openly professed Christianity and that from thence foorth the Churches were not tyed to such Seniors but that wee after thus many ages of Christian princes be frée from them So that where our Brethren say they will not nowe set foorth the pastors authority in common Gouernment with the Elders If there bée no néede of such Elders to ioyne in commons with him in his gouernment then as the other authority was proper to him-selfe so may this authority for power of gouernment in the Church for any thing héere to the contrary bee as proper also to him-selfe as the other For if these graces and giftes whereof the Apostle 1. Cor. 12.28 speaketh were such distinct offices as our brethren say can not be but in distinct officers without confusion of thē then eyther these giftes pertaine not to the Pastors so well as to these Elders as here our Brethren say they doe or else if the Pastors haue authority in them than haue not Elders to deale with them except wee shoulde inferre this confession that they woulde haue vs shunne But nowe our brethren giuing this authority in common with the Elders procéede to the limittation of the same and say This authority of regiment we haue declared that it ought not to bee a Lordly ruling neither ouer their flocke nor yet ouer their fellow-seruants and bret and least of all that they ought to haue dominion Lordship ouer the faith of the Church Dominion and Lordship ouer the faith of the Church we graunt none hath but almighty God and Iesus Christe only that is both God and Man As for the other authority which they cal Lordly ruling ouer their flocke or ouer their fellowe-seruauntes and Brethren as they referre vs to that they haue declared so I referre them to that we haue declared And among other I hope I haue sufficiently declared what manner of ruling they may haue both ouer their flocke and ouer their fellow-seruaunts and brethren both by the worde of God by the practise of the Primitiue Church and by the approbation of diuerse the best learned protestants in the reformed Churches of our age But how this authoritie of Gouernment which here they giue in common to the pastors with the Elders shall be parted among them is not yet determined For albeit our Brethren acknowledge that the Pastors haue rule and authority herein yet the forme of prayers in the English congregation at Geneua doth deny it and say Pag. 43. Because the charge of the Worde of God is of greater importaunce than that any man is able to dispence therewith and S. Paul exhorteth to esteem them as Ministers of Christe and disposers of Gods mysteries not Lordes or rulers as Peter saith ouer the flocke therefore the Pastors or Ministers cheef office standeth in preaching the word of God and Ministring the sacraments So that in consultations iudgements elections and other politicall affayres his counsell rather then authority taketh place So that by this rule he is so far from al lordly ruling that he hath no rule nor authority at all in Common with the Elders in these matters But of the twaine our Brethren here say better that hee hath authority vnderstanding it for power of gouernment in the Church But say our Brethren In all these the man of sinne hath exalted him selfe contrary to the worde of God so that hee woulde bee heade of all the Church Bishop of all Bishops and haue authority to make newe articles of Fayth Whose intollerable presumption as wee haue long since banished out of this land so wee wish that no steppes of suche Pride and arrogancy might be left beyond him namely that no elder or Minister of the Church shoulde challenge vnto him-selfe or accept it if it were offered vnto him any other authority than that is allowed by the spirite of God but cheefely to be ware that he vsurpe no authoritie which is forbidden by the word of God For wherefore doe we detest the Pope and his vsurped supremacy but because he arrogateth the same vnto him-selfe not onely without the warrant of Gods word but also cleane contrary to the same All this section we confesse with our Brethren and gladly subscribe vnto it saue that we wish it not as though it were onely to be done and is not done but we trust it is perfourmed already If it bee not let our Brethren prooue the contrary Nowe if the reasons and authorities that haue banished the Pope doe serue to condemne all other vsurped authority that is practized in the Church why shoulde not all such authority be banished as well as the Pope And good reason too that all other vsurped authority that is practized in the Churche shoulde bee as well banished as the Pope But doe our brethren meane by these spéeches of all other vsurped authoritie that is practized in the Church that there is any such practised in the Church meaning the church of England For these words are vttered so couertly that we might seeme in granting the consequence that such shoulde be banished to graunt withall that there is some such in the church of England remaining and practised yet among vs. But we deny that there is any such to our knowledge or by the Lawes approoued in this Realme And if there bée any steppes thereof I doubt they will rather bee founde in the trake of our Brethren themselues sooner than in any part of that authoritie which is allowed to our prelates We can alleage against the Pope and rightly that which S. Iohn baptist did aunswere to his Disciples No man can take vnto him-selfe any thing except it be giuen him from heauen Iohn 3.27 And that saying of the Apostle to the Hebrewes
examination and determining of al matters pertayning to discipline and gouernement of that congregation The premisses inferred not this conclusion S. Paule speaketh not at all in those places of euerie Church and congregation nor howe many offices ought to be in euerie of them nor of any consistorie or Seniorie at all of Elders or Gouernors in them nor of the hearing examination determining of all matters pertayning to discipline and gouernement of that congregation nor who or how many of them ought to do these things nor of any certaine perpetuall and ordinarie platforme of officers or offices to the whole Churche or to euerie particular Churche and congregation None of all these pointes are here either plainely declared or inclusiuely insinuated by S. Paule and yet sée how our Brethren when they are once growne to be bolde to affimre one point out of Gods word for these officers more than the worde of God leadeth them vnto dare from one point procéeding to another waxe bolder and bolder in the ende so bolde not nowe only to affirme plainely all these things But to make a flat and plaine conclusion on them and that a necessarie that therefore there ought to be in euery Church a Consistorie or Signorie of Elders or Gouernors which ought to haue the hearing examination and determining of all matters pertaining to discipline and gouernment of that congregation and then indéede farewell not only our former questions of womens gouernement but of all Princes gouernement women or men in any of their dominions For here is not onely mentioned discipline but also gouernement and not in Ecclesiasticall matters only but in all matters pertayning to the gouernement of that congregation and not onely the hearing and examination of all matters but also the determining of them all And all this not to be done in some but in euerie Church and in euerie congregation in the Realme yea in the whole worlde And all this to be done not by any officers of the Prince but by a Consistorie or Segnorie of Elders or Gouernours chosen among themselues not any officers of the Prince being so muche as mentioned among them no nor now when it commeth to the conclusion eyther Pastor or Bishop is ioyned with them So that both the Pastor and the Bishop is now so farre remooued from hauing any authoritie of gouernemnt in the Church separated from others by him selfe that he may kéepe it by him selfe haue he any for with them in conclusion hee getteh none they will haue all separately by themselues Are not these matters trowe wée in this Learned Discourse of our Brethren properly concluded and to the great beautifying of Gods Church and to the quiet establishment of this Realme O Brethren Brethren it is more than high time to looke to such a Segnorie the verye péeping out of whose heades and the first appearing in the Discoursing of them shall beginne his course on this course fashion and vnder pretence of putting by the Bishoppe and of ioyning with the Pastor shall so exclude the Princes established authoritie and sette vp such a straunge newe gouernement among them-selues and that in euerie particular Congregation that is in euerie parish Church both with vs in Englande and throughout all Christendome But nowe to mittigate all this least it might growe into shrewde suspition of most daungerous troubles innouations and confusions of all Realmes and states by giuing too great authoritie to the Segnories of these Congregationall Elders and Gouernours Our Brethren adioyne heereunto with great circumspection certaine cautions of moderation Which authority of theirs say they neuerthelesse ought to be moderated that their iudgement may be rightly accounted the iudgement of the holy Church I thinke they would say of the whole Church But the terme holie is well-inough For verily if the Churche be not the holier this Segnorie might bréede a mysterie of great mischiefe and vnholinesse except their iudgement in choosing and the authoritie of those that be chosen shall the better be moderated Let vs therefore marke our Bretherens moderating of these Gouernours to bridle and represse all these inconueniences Which thing consisteth in these two points First that the Elders be elected and chosen by consent of the whole Congregation men of godlinesse and wisedome in whom the whole Church reposeth such confidence that they committe vnto them their authority in hearing and determining such matters as without horrible confusion they cannot performe themselues I looked here for the moderating of these Elders that their authoritie should haue béen so restrayned or limited that either they should not deale in all matter of gouernement or not proceede ouer farre therein But our Brethren talke of no such moderating of them Their moderation consisteth in two pointes whereof the first is for their election that the Elders be elected and chosen by the consent of the whole congregation What And shall neither Prince Magistrate Bishop Pastor nor any officer ciuill or Eccl. haue any stroake ouer and aboue the whole multitude of the congregation in the election of them which shall deale in all matters of gouernment This first point is a point as daungerous as any of the residue And how shall the whole congregation giue their consent in the electing of them Shall they doe it by some other chosen persons among them that shall giue their consent for them And then who shall choose them that shall chose those that shall choose these Elders chosen for them Or shall euery person of the whole congregation by himselfe or all of them together on a huddle choose them And what if they cannot consent vpon them Shall the halfe or greater parte goe for the whole when the other halfe or the lesser part of the whole congregation dissenteth from the election And how then will they chose suche men of godlinesse and wisedome as they imagine And what also if the greater part thēselues of the congregation want wisedome to make such choise of them Or affection of loue hate feare hope c. ouercome their wisedome As we sée it doth oftentimes not only in fewe but in multitudes And the greatest parte hath not alwayes the greatest wisedome nor greatest godlinesse Whereupon ariseth the common saying maior pars vincit meliorē the greatest part ouercomes the better And our greater part must be accounted for the whole or else no choise at all will bée made among them And where then shall our men of wisedome and godlinesse by the consent of the whole congregation be elected and chosen Well say they yet they shall be men of such wisedome and godlines as in whome the whole Churche reposeth such confidence that they committe vnto them their authoritie in hearing and determining such matters as without horrible confusion they can not performe themselues And can they not giue their cōsent to the hearing determining such matters without not only confusion
and necessarie a collection On S. Paules words that there were two kindes of Elders in the Church the one medling with teaching and the other not but occupied altogether in gouerning It is because the Apostle vseth this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 chiefely especially most of all or aboue all other And must néedes this specially of the persons make a specialtie also of the functions Might they not as well be all of one function and yet for some specialtie in their labours either in gift or in trauell or in diligence or in dexteritie or in successe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 haue a more speciall recommendation then some other And yet no disprayse vnto the other which though they were ministers of the worde also yet some of them according as they excelled in diuersitie of giftes might be most employed otherwise The Apostles were ministers of the woorde and medled with teaching before they chose Deacons and yet they say it liketh vs not that leauing the worde we should minister to the tables which plainely argueth that they laboured not so much in the worde and doctrine before as they did after and yet then were they Elders medling with teaching and according to that time gouerning well also and deseruing double honour though not in comparison of their labours in the worde and doctrine after they had chosen the Deacons to helpe them Yea the Deacons also were not excluded from medling with teaching as appeareth both by Stephen Act. 7. and by Philip. Act. 8. When Paule and Barnabas were chosen out by the holy Ghost vnto the worke whereunto he called them which was a worke in both of them medling with the woorde Act. 13. yet because S. Paule medled more with the worde than Barnabas did not onely the Licaonians called Barnabas Iupiter and Paule Mercurie but S. Luke addeth the reason thereof 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Because he to wit Paule was the guide or ruler of the worde that is to say the chiefe teacher of it who laboured more in the worde not onely than Barnabas but than all the residue 1. Cor. 15.10 and yet medled with teaching as well as Paule did The specialtie therefore of labouring in the worde more chiefely and aboue other debarreth not other but that they may meddle with teaching also yea and be of the same function in that behalfe neither S. Paule maketh his distinction of medling with the worde but of labouring in the word and to expresse the more painefull or effectuall labour therein hee doubleth his spéech saying that labour in the worde and doctrine And Caluine himselfe construeth these wordes thus qui bene praesunt They that rule well that is which faithfully and stoutly trauaile in their office And they that labour in the worde and doctrine that is they which are intentiue or earnest in teaching the worde referring it not to the diuersitie of the office but to the diuersitie of the industrie in the office I speake not this neither so peremptorily that of necessitie we should on the other side conclude that he speaketh there but of those Elders onely that were all Elders of the word and yet that he commendeth some more especially than others for their more especiall labours in the worde but that wee may thus also conster his wordes with probabilitie and reason inough for any thing herein to the contrarie And thus sithe neither these words 1. Tim. 5.17 inferre any necessitie of such Elders as meddle not with teaching but were altogether occupied in gouerning nor yet if they had ment any suche Elders then they inferre any rule of perpetuitie that there should be such still and what their gouernement was is not here set downe nor insinuated and not onely some enlarge it some restraine it but Caluine himselfe which is the chiefest if not the first that so construeth these wordes is so contradictorie to him selfe or vncertaine and varying therein howe shall wee learne this first point except our Brethren shall teach vs better that there be Elders in the Church which meddle not with teaching but are occupied altogether in gouerning meaning such gouernement of such Elders such necessarie being of them in such Churches of euery particular congregation as our Brth. here do pretend vrge on this testimonie Now as we can not as yet vppon any necessitie of consequence out of this sentence 1. Tim. 5.17 Learne the first point so I in my dull head much lesse the second that the Elders which labor in teaching otherwise called Pastors are ioyned also in gouernement with them which teach not For admitting againe that there were 2. kindes of Elders in distinct function intended in this testimonie the one medling with teaching the other not and both gouerned as it is sayde here generally 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Elders that rule well where with all is not to be forgotten how Paule to expresse their well ruling vseth the very worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that Beza ascribeth to Timothie not only for an Elder of the worde but also for such a principall Elder of the worde as Beza calleth out of Iustine antistitem a Bishop So that vnlesse our Brethren will make eche Elder of the Seignorie in euerie Congregation a Bishop and so set vp vnpreaching Prelates like the Popish dombe Bishops they can not so properly expounde it of Elders not medling with the worde as medling with it But vnderstand it either waies as they list For so they call them B. as we haue séen in Beza the Geneua note on Phil. 1.1 yet doth not this sentence make their gouernements ioyne with the Bishops and Pastors teaching Yea in the one and better halfe that is in the gouernement of teaching the worde they they selues doe disioyne their gouernements And if as we haue séene out of Gualter they were only politike and ciuill Christian gouernors except our Brethren will giue politike and ciuill iurisdiction also to the Pastors how doe they ioyne in gouernement Yea how doe our Brethren here say that the Pastors are ioyned in gouernment with them which teache not and yet in their forme of Common prayers and ministration of sacramentes both that which was set out in Geneua and that which nowe of late is set out againe at London by our Brethren they doe confesse which I haue often before noted that the pastors and Ministers cheefe office standeth in preaching the worde of God and Ministring the sacramentes so that in consultations iudgementes elections and other ecclesiasticall affayres his counsell rather than authority taketh place And this they say is approoued by Caluine And yet Caluine plainly sayth as we haue heard before that these Elders not teaching together with the pastors in common counsell and authoritie of the Church administred the Discipline and were as it were the censors to correct the manners Are not those sayings cleane contrary or doe they think to help all with these
we grant he doth so they much more shold liue in order therin be example to other If therfore any Eccl. senate be amoÌ„g the clergy omnis ordâ— eccl saith Ierom suis rectoribâ—â— nititur All eccl order resteth on their gouernors And who then or how many are these gouernors forsooth but one Here are three orders of the clergy reckoned vp the deacons as the lowest they haue their archd for their gouernor the Elders midlemost and they are distinct heere from the deacons and from the B. and haue their arch-elder among themselues ouer them al in the senates of them And the B. are chéefest ouer the seueral churches Except we shall find in seueral prouinces archb also ouer them Which authority likewise Ierom allowed among and ouer the B. though he make none but Christ the vniuersall head and gouernor ouer all these in general that the pope now taketh vpon him But wher is here this gouernment of al this senate of gouerning Elders where are these gouerning elders that are not teachers doth Ierom here or any other where acknowlege any such order of eccl elders as medled not with the ministration of the word sacraments Ierom saith that the names of Elders B. were â—â—rst vsed for al one office as we haue at large séen his opinioÌ„ therin how that vse was altered but doth he acknowlege any other presbytery Senate College Consistory or seniorie of any other Presbyters Preestes seniors and Elders than such as he sayth were 〈◊〉 called Bishops or than such as he calleth indifferently as well as he calleth Bishops sacerdotes and such as were more or leâ—se teachers and Ministers of the Worde and sacramentes Doth he not say in his Epistle to Euagrius Quid enim facit excepta ordinatione episcopus quod Presbyter non faciat For what doth the Bishop except ordeining that an Elder doth not As for the other Epistle to the other Rusticus being altogether of another argument we finde nothing tending hereunto saue only that he hath these wordes Vnde ad viros Ecclesiasticos c. Wherupon also vnto the Ecclesiasticall men which are called the walls and towers of the church the saying of the prophet speaketh powre foorth your teares ye Walles of Sion But because here he neither sheweth what he meant by these ecclesiasticall men nor speaketh of any Senate of them wee can gather nothing directly either for Elders or other Ecclesiasticall persons And if hee meant elders why not such as are teachers and Ministers of the Wordâ— and sacramentes and such as he meant of in the other Epistle and in all other places where he mentioneth any ecclesiasticall elders Thus as we finde nothing in Hierome that can make any thing for any ecclesiasticall senate of elders gouerning and not teaching â—o because Danaeus citeth not Hierom simplie but endorseth him with a conâ—â—rmation of the degrées in the Canon Lawe as though it were a perpetual Canon that ther shold still be such an ecclesiasticall senate albeit the same beeing fetched out of this sentence of Hierome as we haue séene maketh more against it than any thing for it so that this decrée being grounded thereon the one falles to the grounde with the other neuerthelesse for the more full satisfaction of the reader in this eldership so much vrged let vs also repayre to the decrees and peruse what is there likewise for this senate of Gouerning and not teaching elders And here indéede is expresse mention made that the church hath a Senate of elders ecclesia habet senatum catum presbyterorum c. The Church hath a senate the company of the Elders without whose consent it is not lawfull for the Monkes to doe any thing Roboam the sonne of Solomon did therefore leese his kingdome because hee woulde not heare his elders The Romaynes also had a senate by whose counsel they did all thinges and wee haue our senate the company or assembly of the elders These wordes are plaine that the church hath a senate and this senate is the company of the elders and that also the Monkes coulde doe nothing without their counsell Howbeit this Canon applieth not this restraint to the B. but to the Monkes And if wee shoulde vnderstande it of Bishops also which this Canon doth not yet were it but of counsell not of necessary consent and much lesse of ioint authority with him But the Question is nowe what manner of elders these were Whether they were such as these examples of the Romane Senate or as the Elders whose counsel Roboam did refuse or they were Ministers of the word and Sacraments For our better vnderstanding hereof we haue to resort to the cause handled immediatly before which was the 15. cause Quest. 7. Absque Synodali Without a synodal audience for a Preest to bee condemned it was in the Councell of Hispalis wherin Isodorus was present forbidden on this wise Sexta actione c. In the sixt action we finde that Flagitanus an Elder of the Church of Corduba was in times past deposed by his Bishop and being innocent was condemned to exile or banishment whome we finde againe to be restored to his own order the same thing haue we againe decreed against your presumption that according to the synodall senteÌ„ce of the holie fathers none of you think that any Elder or Deacon ought to be deposed without the examination of a Councel For there are many that by tyrannicall power not by authoritie Canonicall doe condemne those that haue not bene examined And as they exalt some for fauour sake so they debase some for for hatred and enuy and condem them vpon a lighte blast of opinion whose fault they mislike For a bishoppe can alone giue honour vnto preestes and ministers but he can not alone take it from them For if those which in this worlde haue of their Lordes atteyned to the honor of their liberty are not tumbled downe againe into the bond of seruitude except they shal haue beene publikely accused before the Praetors or cheefe Iustices and gouernours in the iudgement Court how much more they that beeing consecrated to the Altars of God are adorned with Ecclesiasticall honour which verily neither by one condemning them nor one iudging them can bee deposed from the priuiledge of their honor but by a present Synodall iudgement That thing must wholy be determined of them that the Canon hath commaunded And it followeth Si quid c. If any thing shall come to thine eares of any Clearke that may iustly offend thee beleeue it not easily leaste the matter being not knowne doe inflambe thee by reuengement But the trueth of the matter is to be searched out diligently in the presence of Seniors of the Church and then if the quality of the matter shall require it let the Canonicall correction strike the fault of the offender Héere are Seniors also of the Church named And againe Episcopus Let the
of the oâ—der of the church at that time among the Iewes which was forthwith to bee dissolued than for the state of the church that he would erect that shoulde among the christians bee continued But what nowe was this order among the Iewes that Caluin and our Brethren say Christe alluded vnto and looked vpon Moreouer saith Caluine when as the power of excommunication belonged to the Iewes that were seniors which susteyned the person of the whole church aptly doth Christe say that those which haue sinned if they shall eyther proudly contemne the first admonitions or scoffingly exclude them are then at length to be brought foorth publikely vnto the church That the Seniors among the Iewes had the power of excommunication is not in question but what Seniors they were which had that power Whether a chosen number out of the auncients of the people or such as were onely of the Preestes and Leuites I speake it for that power of denouncing excommunication Not but that I grant they had other Elders for other matters But that either or both these Elders represented the person of the church beeing the heades and Gouernours of the church I sée no such aptnesse in the representation The head representeth not the body nor the body the heade And yet the subiectes may more aptly represent by substitution the person of the gouernors than the gouernors may be sayde to represent the person of the Subiectes And no doubt Christes wordes were moste apt and proper for the matter that he spake of For as Caluine sayth of bringing foorth the matter publikely to the church if he had meant of them that were but Elders or gouernours or admit also they were representers of the church yet shoulde he not haue spoken so aptly as if he had sayde if he had so meant tell the Elders or gouernors or represeÌ„ters of the church And not tel the church which is a great deale more improper and vnapter spéech We knowe saith Caluine that from the time that the Iewes returned out of the captiuity of Babylon the censure of the manners and of the doctrine was committed to a chosen counsell which they called Synhedrin in Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This was a lawfull regiment approued of God and this was a bridle to reteine in their duety the froward and such as would not learne To prooue that there were such a chosen councell among the Iewes to whome the sensure or controlment of manners and of doctrin was committed Caluine heere assigneth the time after the returne from the captiuity of Babylon which councell was called Sinhedrim in Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And he sayth God approoued it and that it was a lawful regiment and a good Bridle against the wicked I meruell that Caluine fetcheth these Seniors among the Iewes from so late time as after their returne from Babilon And yet hee nameth no time when after their return they were created that we might haue turned to it and séen what persons they were and what office was committed to them Danaeus to make this more cleeare in his foresaide introduction 2. part lib. 2. cap. 10. saith But to determine strifes and as out of Socrates li. 7. cap. 37. may be gathered which example we haue before perused to take vpon theÌ„ to be Iudges and Arbitrators I neuer read that it was the office of Elders or part of their office For although the presbytery or Synedrion of the Iewes which was the same Act. 22. vers 5. 30. And Math. 5. verse 22. seeme to aunswere to our presbytery and iudged oftentimes of certain causes Notwithstanding our Presbyteries do not iudge and therefore are different from those from Iudaicall because those partly had political and partly Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction both at once as appeareth Esd. 10. ver 8. But ours haue onely ecclesiasticall If this which Danaeus saith be true that that Presbeytry Act 22. be the same Presbytery with that mentioned Esdras 10. We finde it then indéede as Caluine saith after the returne out of the captiuity of Babylon But how then doeour Learned discoursing Brethren say The like whereof he willed to be established in his Church Will these our brethrens Seniors contrarie to that which Danaeus saith take vpon them politike and Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction both at once And so in-déede these our Bret. plainly say the Synedrion had the hearing and determining of all difficult and weighty matters among the Iewes Here is nothing left out bee it in politike or Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction so it be a waighty and difficult matter And our brethren apply it to vs saying The like whereof hee willed to be established in his Church for administration of Gouernment So that nothing here remaineth entiere to the Prince and nobles to the Iudges and Magistrates for our Gouerning Seniors must haue all or a stroke in all But the authority of the Presbytery Act. 22. was much abridged concerning the Politike Iurisdiction as we shall God willing sée anon And yet who were those Seniors in that presbytery Actes 22. ver 5. Paule sayth the cheefe preest doth beare me witnesse and all the Presbytery of whome I receyued letters vnto the Brethren and went to Damascus to bring them that were there bounden to Ierusalem that they might be punished And in the thirteenth verse speaking of the capteine that kept paule prisoner he sayth on the next day because he wold haue knowne the certainty wherefore he was accused of the Iewes he losed him from his bonds and commanded the high preestes and all their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Councell to come together And he brought Paule and set him before them Here are both these tearmes Presbytery or Eldership 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Councell These were all in-déede Controllers of Doctrine as Marlorate well noteth out of Brentius commending the aequity and prudent doing of this Tribune Who because hee was ignoraunt of the Iewish religion he woulde referre the cause of religion to the Councell of them that were the Prelates of religion So that here this councell séemeth to haue beene all of those that were teachers of Doctrine for such are or shoulde be the Prelates of religion But did God allow of this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If it were all one with that before mentioned Esdras 10. Wee may well say with Caluine It was a Lawfull regiment and approoued of God But this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Actes 22. was not a Lawfull regiment nor approoued of God and therefore it was not the same that is mentioned Esdras 10. But a degenerate corruption of it Neither was that in-déede called eyther 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Sanedrin or Synhedrin nor any such Greeke name or any corruption of that name begun among the Iewes in Esdras time The Babylonians had no dealing with the Graecians Neither the Iewes till after the conquestes of Alexander the great who translated the Monarchie to the Graecians and so withâ—l
Ministerie especialy as they were thē in practise may be imploied otherwise both for the attendance on the Pastors in the Ministerie of the word and Sacraments and also to prepare themselues to become fit Pastors afterwards whereupon now and then as necessitie or occasion hath serued and they found to be méete thereto the Ministerie also of the word and Sacraments hath béene permitted vnto them in the auncient yea in the Primitiue Church and at the very time of their institution or immediatly after as appéereth both by Stephen and Philip by whome we may iudge the like of all the residue for Stephen so soone as euer he was chosen Deacon was set vpon with diuers aduersaries in matter of doctrine who disputed with Stephen but they were not able to resist the wisedome and the spirite by the which he spake Actes 6.10 Whereupon saith Gualter Et quamuis de publicis concionibus c. And although nothing be spoken of his publike Sermons notwithstanding it is euident by the context of the hystorie that he had these both often and effectuall and very serious Wherefore by the way and as it were by digression we may heere see that the Deacons of the Primitiue Church were not altogether estraunged from the ministerie of the word but although they were chiefelie occupied about the dispensation of the Churches goodes neuerthelesse they imployed their labour also so farre as they might in the other ministeries of the Church that by this meanes according to the sentence of S. Paule they might get vnto themselues a good degree 1. Tim. 3. what a notable Sermon he made and what a rare and singular gift of the spirit of God in his preaching he had the 7. Chapter at large witnesseth Aretius vpon the 3. verse of the properties that Peter required in these Deacons saith Fourthly he returneth againe to the vertues to wit such as are meete for them to haue Full of the holy Ghost That they should haue certayne most sure notes of the holy Ghost such as at that time were to speake with tongs that they had not learned to worke miracles in the name of Christ to teach boldly in this teaching to ouercome the enemies and such like Also Full of wisedome that is that they be prouident and warie least they cast pearles to any dogs or swine but teach them that are to be taught but chiefely prudence was necessary for the Ecclesiasticall dispensation whereunto they are to be called And on the 5. verse of Stephens disputation with his aduersaries which saith he was of the Christian doctrine he saith Stephen no doubt did execute faithfully and constantly the office of a Deacon no lesse then Lawrence did afterward vnder Sextus and Vincentius vnder Valerius who bestowed the treasures of the Church vpon the poore But vnto these do come new vertues first he is full of faith that is of feruencie in teaching that faith c. The like we reade in the eight Chapter following of Philip one of the same companie of Deacons whome Aretius calleth the Doctor of the Samaritanes secondly sayth he heereunto perteineth a singuler example of Philip who happily instructed the Samaritanes First heere may be considered who that Philip was for there haue beene that haue thought him to be the Apostle but two strong arguments are against them in the context first that the Apostles were not dispearsed but aboade at Ierusalem but Philip was among those that were dispearsed therefore it was not Philip the Apostle Moreouer the Apostles onely could giue the holy Ghost but Philip could not do it And heereupon Iohn Peter are sent to the Samaritanes wherefore it can not be Philip the Apostle it is therefore the Deacon of whome we spake before Chap. 6. And Gualter affirming also the same addeth further First he teacheth whose ministery God vsed in conuerting Samaria it was that Philip not he that was the Apostle but he that before was reckoned vp among the Deacons as the auncient writers of the Church do testify with one consent chiefely Epiphanius writing of Simon and of the Simoniacks for although the parts of the Deacons were to beare the care of the common goodes of the Church and of the poore notwithstanding it was withall permitted vnto them to take on them the preaching of the Gospell if at any time necessity so required the which we haue hitherto seene in Stephens example And perhaps there was not so great vse of Deacons at Ierusalem when the Church was dispersed with the tempest of persecution and therefore they which before dispensed the publike goods of the Church gaue themselues wholy to the ministery of the word Yea and Paule admonished afterward that the Deacons by ministring well should get vnto themselues a degree vnto a greater function 1. Tim. 3. And as the ministration of the Sacraments followeth the preaching of the word so Philip baptized those whome he had by his preaching conuerted Neither is it noted that they did these things by reason of any other office annexed vnto them but as Gualter noteth verie well that in generally as they had gifts competent and occasion conuenient it was not impertinent to their office of Deaconship so to imploy themselues Whereupon also the Magdeburgenses note Centuria 1. lib. 2. cap. 7. pag. 508. saying Other were Deacons The office of these was to minister to the Table at Ierusalem so long as the community of goods was there Acts. 6. but neuerthelesse that they also taught and shewed foorth signes appeareth out of Stephen Actes 6. and Philip Actes 8.21 and euery where in other Churches it was the office of the Deacons to teach and to minister And the same Magdeburgenses in the title Deratione acforma gubernationis pag. 510. do say These were the works in common of the Apostles and Prophetes Pastors Doctors Priestes Deacons They taught the Church purely and sincerely concerning euery of the head points of the christian doctrine c. and that Deacons also taught appeareth out of the 6. and 8. of the Actes they interpreted the holy Scriptures c. they deliuered the Catechisme c. they did cut the word of truth rightly into the Law and the Gospell c. they vsed the forme of sound words in teaching c. they vsed also in teaching a simple kind of speech c. they studied to keepe the puritie of doctrine c. they opposed themselues sharply against false teachers and Hereticks and confuted their false opinions For Stephen Act. 6. confuted them that were in the synagog of the Libertines c. they preached repentance that is they reproued and blamed sinners for the Apostles Act. 2.3 and 4. did openly obiect vnto the Iewes this sinne and for the same reproue them that they had killed Iesus of Nazareth the iust and holy one the sonne of God and the Messias and Stephen Actes 7. calleth them murtherers and betrayers of
diuers peoples are gathered together into one bodie with the same things also we beleeue that they are conserued being vnited and do more and more growe together Sith therefore the gathering together of the Church is not made nor conserued properly by ceremonies but by the holy Ghost but by the word but by faith but by charitie but by obseruance of the commaundements of God we doubt not but that also by the same things the vnitie thereof is to be reteyned and cherished When as the Apostle also to the Ephesians where he treateth of the vnitie of the Church teacheth that it consisteth in these things no mention being made of ceremonies In the meane season we denie not but that vnitie euen in ceremonies themselues and in the rites of euerie Church so farre-foorth as by conscience it may be done is to be reteyned and to be reuerenced For there are two kyndes of thyngs wherein the vnitie of the Church may bee the things that are deliuered in the word of God and the things that are not expressed in the word such as are many externall rytes and ceremonies Ecclesiasticall In those things deliuered in the word we beleeue that vnitie euery where and alwayes is very necessary but in these things although by it selfe it be not necessarie but that according to the diuersitie of places and according to the diuers coÌ„sideration of the time it is profitable to haue diuers rites notwithstanding where any thing concerning these matters is ordeyned and receyued for the edification of the Church there we thinke that vnitie also in such kinde of rites is of euerie bodie to be reteyned and the orders Ecclesiasticall are not to be disturbed According to the Apostles rule all things in the Church ought to be done in order decently and to edification of which matters we do very greatly allow and embrace the two Epistles of Augustine written to Ianuarius The wisedome of the Synode therefore ought to haue such regard of all Churches that they haue speciall respect to euery one Héere is all of the wisedome of the Synode but nothing of the authoritie of the Magistrate of the Synodes such regarde of all Churches and speciall respect to euery one that to the Christian Magistrate there is héere neyther any regard nor respect had or mentioned eyther generall or speciall is this the wisedome and equall dealing of our Brethren betwéene the Magistrate and the Synode for this authoritie Howbeit this also is not true that for the speciall respect to euery one the Decree of the Synode in one Prouince may not runne in generall alike to all the Churches in that one Prouince For if euery one Church in one Prouince may varie from another the same may be sayd by as good reason of euery person in euery one Church Also that the Synode should haue a speciall respect of euery one of them and so in deede our Brethrens words may be vnderstood saying not to euery one Church but to euery one so that euery one differing from another it were best to make no Decree at all but let euery man do as he best liked hand ouer head without any order of vniformitie in ceremonies at all and so to make short and to be partiall to neyther partie to cut off all authoritie quite and cleane both from Magistrate and Synode in these matters and let all be fans caeremonies as the French saith Wherein we of long time in England haue beene caried away with an vntrue principle that vniformitie must be in all places and things alike as though we would feede olde men and sucking infants all with one kinde of meates or as though we would cloath all ages in a robe of one assize and that which is more absurd compell men of ripe age to sucke the dugge to weare their biggins and to carrie rattles and other childish bables If our Brethren by this long time in England meane the time since we haue God be praysed for it receyued the light and libertie of the Gospell then is not this true that heere they say we haue beene caried away with an vntrue principle that vniformitie must be in all places and things alike for we prescribe not to all places nor preiudicate any other Churches that are not in nor off the state of the Churches in England and Ireland neyther yet all of them but that in some things also according to their customes and priuiledges they may differ concerning these ceremoniall constitutions from the generall vniformitie of our Churches But were it lawfull for euerie particular Church in England to alter the ceremonies decreed in our nationall Synodes according to their pleasure or opinion to what purpose neede any Synode at all to be troubled about these or what authoritie at all hath a Synode to make any ceremoniall constitutions if the particular Churches of that nation be not bound vniformally to kéepe them They say that the vniformitie of these things is as though we would feede old men and sucking infants all with one kind of meate Although this similitude â—itteth not their purpose sith it is against or aboue nature for sucking infants to feede on all such kinde of meate as old men can do neyther are these ceremoniall constitutions fet foorth for the soules of the weake and simple people to feede vpon in stead of Gods word or that they should receyue them as any part or substance of their soules nourishment and substance as the meate is that the infants feede vpon yet notwithstanding in the very point indéede wherein our Brethren should applie it if they will applie it at all any thing aptly to the purpose it makes cleane against them For although sucking infants can not feede on all kinde of meate that old men can yet old men can feede well ynough on all such kind of meate as sucking infants can for all they can feede on other stronger meates besides And therefore if our Brethren will needes compare these Ceremonies vnto the meate of the weake although they be ordeyned to farre other vses both for the weake and for the strong also yet why may not the strong feede on them in their kindes so well as the weake may for all they can disgest stronger meate for though the old men feede thereon in another manner and not in sucking the dugge as sucking infants do yet for the meate it selfe which is the milke they may be fedde both of them wellynough with one kinde of meate and many a good old man and yong too will not thinke himselfe ill dealt withall to haue euery morning for his breakfast as good a messe of milke as euen a sucking infant also for the proportion of his strength may feede vpon Sainct Paule writâ—ng to the Corinthians sayth 1. Cor. â— ver 1. I could not speake vnto you Brethren as vnto spirituall men but as vnto carnall euen as vnto babes
helpe bare headed and there is place where she hath no lesse oportunitie to speake than in an other place to hold her peace And also there is nothing that letteth him to pray which standeth who being let by disease is not able to boowe his knees To conclude it is better in good time to burie the dead than where there wanteth a winding sheete or where there are not some to carrie foorth the corpse to tarrie till it putrifie aboue ground Howbeit there is neuerthelesse in these things that to be done or to be taken heed of that the custome of the region the ordinances yea finally humanitie it selfe and the rule of modestie shall suggest wherein if by vnskilfulnesse or forgetfulnesse any thing be done amisse no crime is committed but if it be done of contempt it is a contumacie or prowde stubbornesse not to be allowed In lyke manner the dayes themselues what they should be and the houres what manner building of the places which Psalmes what day should be soong it maketh no matter And yet it is meete that there be certayne dayes and houres standing and a fitte place to receiue them all if there be any consideration had of peace keeping For of how many brawles would the confusion of those things be the seed if that according as euery bodie liked it were lawfull to change those things that perteyned to the common state sith that it will neuer come to passe that one thing would neuer please them all if matters as though they were layd foorth in the middest among them were left at euerie ones choyse but if any bodie grumble hereat and would heere be more wise than he ought to be let him see to it with what reason he may approue vnto the Lord his way wardnesse Neuerthelesse this saying of Paule ought to satisfy vs that we haue not a custome of contending nor the Churches of God Thus modestlie and with great grauitie writeth Caluine of these Ecclesiasticall Ceremonies and constitutions wherein although it were but of a linnâ—n kerchiefe on a womans head yet for publike order sake he would not haue it contemned though vpon occasion or necessitie it were omitted so farre off was Caluine from this contemptuous likening of these smallest Ceremonies in the Church to the sucking of the dugge to the wearing of biggins and to the carrying of rattles and other childish bables or to the scoffing at the vniformitie of them as though we would feede old men and sucking infants all with one kinde of meate or as though we would cloath all ages in a roabe of one assize for notwithstanding as Caluine sayth they be but outward rudiments to help and strengthen our humane infirmitie whereof some being of riper age in Christ than other we all of vs haue no need of them yet saith Caluine we all of vs do vse them why so but that both bycause saith he we are mutually bound to cherish charity amongst vs one to another and bycause it is not lawfull for euery body to change those things that apperteyne to the common state but that they must be onely changed or taken away by the same authoritie that did make them and as they are not lawfull to euery person no more are they lawfull to euery particular Church to change them bycause they reach higher euen to the common state of the whole region And besides if it should be suffered that euery priuate person and by the same reason euery priuate congregation might change the Churches publike constitutions since that tot capita tot sensus no one constitution would euer please all persons this would become the verie seede as Caluine calleth it of all brawles and confusion and in the end the cleane ouerthrowe of the Church These principles of Caluine being well weighed let now the indifferent reader iudge how truly our Brethren say of these ceremoniall constitutions wherein we of long time in England haue beene caried away with an vntrue principle that vniformitie must be in all places and things alike If this be an vntrue principle in these matters then hath Caluine himselfe helped to carry vs away But I am afrayd our Brethren for all their learning are alittle too much carried away with affection that maketh them both in this matter and in many other mistake vntrue for true and true for vntrue principles But let vs now sée our Brethrens reason that they alleage against vniformitie in these ceremoniall constitutions Our land is not yet wholy conuerted to Christ so great hath beene our negligence hitherto therefore there can not be such an vniformitie of orders in all places as shall be profitable for all This argument although we haue séene it alreadie sufficiently confuted by Caluine let vs yet consider it somewhat further in the example euen of these constitutions made by the Apostles and Elders Actes 15. so often alleaged by our Brethren for if this argument be good then could not they haue made as they did those Ceremoniall constitutions and commanded the charge of kéeping them for any time generally and with like vniformitie of all the Churches to whome they wrote their letter and decrée saying verse 23.28 and 29. the Apostles the Elders and the Brethren vnto the Brethren that are of the Gentiles in Antiochia and in Syria and in Cilicia c. It seemed good to the holy Ghost and to vs to lay no more burthen vpon you than these necessary things that is that ye absteyne from things offered to idoles and bloud and that which is strangled and from fornication from which if ye keepe your selues ye shall do well c. Were none of all those Christians in the Churches to whom they wrote these decrées wholy conuerted to Christ or were all the christians in all those churches wholy conuerted or conuerted all alike and yet the decrée was generally to be vniformely kept of all those churches Yea what shall we say to the Church of Ierusalem it selfe where this decrée was made were they all wholy conuerted to Christ no hypocrites nor yet weake brethren among them did not euen the Elders of Ierusalem themselues bewray the great weakenesse of their multitude when as afterwards Actes 21. S. Paule came to Ierusalem did they not say to Paule vers 20. thou seest Brother how many thousand Iewes there be which beleeue and they all are earnest followers of the lawe c. and for these weake brethrens sakes they counceled S. Paule to purifie himselfe being a Iewe according to the ceremonies of the Iewes and although they knew the christian libertie yet would they haue S. Paule to auoyde the offensiue opinion that the multitude of the christian Iewes had conceyued of him to conforme himselfe vnto theyr weakenesse And what shall we say to the other Churches of the Gentiles were all the Christians in the Church of Corinthus wholy conuerted to Christ and yet notwithstanding S. Paule ceasseth
be iudicially in forme of law complained vpon the parties being named if aliue called accused heard considered conuicted therof before their lawfull magistrate then we all the country would coÌ„mend therin our brethrens iust more charitable dealing then might they better thinke of our bretheren to bee in true meaning suche faithful Ministers as indéede desired the reformation of the Church of Englands discipline At leastwise whatsoeuer the country would thinke or speake both the party and the matter that were proued faulty of little might be much and much sooner amended But on this fashioÌ„ to deface B. their officers spread about such sclaunders suspicions on them all sober and godly affected may mislike it and all the country may cry out theron that it is not the part of faithful ministers brethren that it procéedth neither of true zeale wisedom faithfulnes Iustice or charity nor tendeth little or much to anye amendment of the right reformation or true Churches state or of the persons or of the maâ—ter But nowe if wee shall consider the matter better I speake as they doe in generall tyll some instance bée orderlye produced to the contrary that they should heerein so heighnously accuse the bishops of negligence though the lesser faulte and the officers bryberye for this matter whatsoeuer the neglience of the one or the bribery of the other might doe hurte in other matters there is no likelihood in the worlde either of the one or of the other in this matter neither could the Bishop with his negligence or any fauour or the officers with their bribes taking hinder yâ— procéeding or relieue the person or abuse the authoritie or defeate the penaltie of the sâ—atute For it is so prouidently prouided for by the authoritye of the same highe court of parliament that the party must not onely bring from the Bishop or gardian of the spiritualties in writing vnder his seale auteÌ„tike a testimoniall of such assent and subscription but also openly onsome sonday in the time of publike seruice afore noone in euerye Church where by reason of any liuing he ought to attend the partie shall reade both the sayde testimoniall and the sayde Articles and all this to be done vppon paine of loosing all his Eccl. promotions ipso facto So that here no negligence or any corruption of the Bishop nor briberie of the officers coulde any whit helpe the partie but that hee must needes do the thinges that are thus prescâ—ibed to be so openly in the face of all the Church performed Which things now if the minister did not as he ought to do vnfeynedly and with all his hart but hypocritically that is not the Bishops nor the officers fault his owne sin be vpon his owne head But if his sin be founde out and be not further punished so farre as the Bishop by his superiour authority may doe then hardly blame the Bishop and his officers if the faulte thereof be in them As for poore olde sir Ihon lacke latines lacke of latine that fault is not to be laide to any of our Bishops that made him not priest howbeit many of our most zealous brethren which take vpon them not onely to bee faithfull ministers but to bee preachers also néede not much to insulte vpon old sir Iohn for lacke of latine But what an olde mumpsimus haue they heere raked out to make their wondermente and spectacle of example vppon to leuell all those priestes by for whome the statute in the wordes aboue cited was enacted Here is drawne out as it were an owle out of an Iuie Bush for all the birds to ho wt at an olde sir Iohn lacke latine though hee had his orders from rome a porta latina hauing as it were a tot quot of benefices on his back in a number of diuers shires one benefice distant a 100. miles froÌ„ another miserably carried about in a cart or on his mare bestia super bestiam to goe mumble vp his articles in his morrow masse voice in euery church where hee had liuing and returne as verye a beast as hee came What meane our brethren to bring foorth such a beast as they haue here described or did they know of any such in all England and if they did the crie of all the countrye ranâ— vpon him and that he was by negligence of the bishop and briberie of the officers borne out and vnpunished then may hee the eassier be knowne and the other parties also if liuing to be punished all in time And not for this one odde palinodie all the Bishops their officers to be thus burdened with such crimes and outcries for abusing that authority of the statute committed vnto them But if that knowing no such old croust yet in the person and discription of such an hypocrite they would insult on all thosâ— Ministers that had before bin popish priestes especially vpon the poore old and simpler sorte of them they offer a great many honest men that are neyther beastes nor Papistes too great and too contumelious an iniury that are nowe God bethanked Good sound conuerted protestants But let vs take this old sir Ihon as they haue here set him out If nowe he had so many benefices that he saw not some of them in a dosen yeare before there is expresse statute to haue abridged his number and lawes to limite his circuite too But if he held them by any lawe or priuiledge and saw them not before in a dosen yeres nor were by necessary impediment deteyned from them prouided not the better in his absence for their instruction and the diuine seruice with the administration of the sacraments the preaching of the worde of God to bee orderly set foorth vnto them by some other to supply that which by his infirmity absence and ignorance he could not do him selfe then indéede the Bishop and his officers may pertake the blame with him contrarywise if he did all these thinges what could the Bishop do against him But if now vpon this statute for feare he should loose his benefices this old sir Iohn lacke Latine were carried about on his mare and somtimes on a cart so it were to doe his duty eyther then or before or after if he were so carryed about eyther for pouerty or infirmity our brethren should not haue obiected that vnto him Euery one that cannot haue a horse to ride on pouerty may make him glad that he hath a mate or else he might perhaps trot on bayard a tentoes and he that could neyther ride nor goe by reason of great age or other weakenes if hee could neyther haue horselitter couche nor waggon he must haue bin carryed in a carte or else tarry at home loose his benefice for any remedy he had that I knowe of but howsoeuer his case stoode pouerty and infirmity are rather me thinkes to be pitied than vpbraided yea though the man otherwise deserued no
contradictions inconueniences absurdities ambiguities and a number of vndutifull reproches of the pastors of the Bishops of the Magistrates of the Prince of the whole church state and realme wherewith this their publike testimoniall is not onelie interlaced but full fraught Which the present age séeing and considering might rather reiect it for an infamous libell vnorderly crept out and scattered abrode in the name of all the faithfull ministers and yet not one of all their names set vnto it rather than accept it for anie lawfull autentike and publike testimoniall And as our brethren saie they meant this for the age present so say they And that the posteritie maie know that the truth in this time was not generallie vnknowne nor vntestified concerning the right regiment of the church of God nor this disordered forme of ecclesiasticall gouernment which we haue receaued for the most part of poperie c. Loe howe our Brethren still holde out to the harde ende their boystrous reproches of our disordred forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernment and that wee haue receaued it for the most part of Poperie and it was within little that they sayde not for all of poperie as the most part doth often times goe for all But with them these spéeches goe not for sclaunders but for friendly admonitions and brotherly testimonials of their good opinion of our state and vs. Yea these and all the rest are vttered That the posteritie may knowe What should they knowe Howe to ruffle in the like Rhetoricall figures What should they knowe Howe these that went before them left behinde them such a reprochfull testimoniall of the present age Is not this a faire recorde and full worthy to be commended to the posteritie for a perpetuall memorie But they say they shall knowe hereby that the truth in this time was not generally vnknowen nor vntestified concerning the right regiment of the Church of God And how shal they knowe this By this Learned Discourse and publike testimoniall as they call it testified by a generall indiuiduum vagum Sir Nicholas Nemo and all his companie of faithfull Ministers May this in lawe be admitted for a lawefull recorde and publike testimoniall of the truth Veritas non quaerit angulos Well yet the posteritie may knowe that the truth in this time was not vnknowen nor vntestified concerning the right regiment of the Church of God Truth indéede the truthe God be praysed for it is not generally vnknowen especially in this time Yea thankes be to God it is knowen and testified more generally at this time than for generalitie it hath béen knowen as I suppose at any time not excepting in that respect the very time of the Apostles If our liues were generally also aunswerable to our generall knowledge and to our publike testification Neyther is in this time the right regiment of the Church of GOD generally vnknowen or vntestified but was generally knowen and testified well inough before the publike testimoniall of this Learned Discourse came foorth Neither doe we or can we take any certaine knowledge concerning the right regiment of the Churche hereby Yea it should seeme that their owne selues except in some generalitie and superficiall knowledge do not as yet know it nor can testifie what it is For if this be the right regiment of the Churche that in this publike testimoniall they prescribe vnto vs it hath not onely béene generally and altogether vnknowen and vntestified in anie time heretofore vntill this time that his Learned Discourse came foorth and before was neuer heard of I meane for this forme taking it altogether as it is heere discoursed except for some parcelles of it testified of late by others But for anie certaine knowledge it is not yet eyther generally made knowen and testified vnto the present age or to the posteritie by this publike testimoniall nor particularly vnto the testies themselues for all that they boldly affirme this to be the right regiment of the Church and yet when they haue neuer so truely testified and discoursed neuer so learnedly all that they can with all their heades layde together their verie desire in the ende and summe of all is but eyther to haue this or the like to bee receaued But if this be the right then eyther this or the wrong there is no like wil serue the turne And is their desire to haue either right or wrong they care not whether so they may be ridde of this regiment that nowe we haue If this regiment séeme too hoate vnto them will they leape with the Flounder out of the frying pan into the fire But God be praysed they néede not frie except they frie in their owne hoate and fretting choller at the regiment of the Church of Englande vnder GOD and her Maiestie it is generally a good Regiment and right inough according to the establishment of the lawes therof if our Brethren would coole their ouer-hoate passions and be thankefull to God and vnder him to her Maiestie for it As for this publike testimoniall of our Brethren if our regiment of the Church be not right the posteritie shal neuer know by theirs what is right or wrong or that the right regiment of the Church was made knowen or testified in this time either generally or particularly or that is most to be desired certainely by such a doubtfull testification of vncertaine desires that either this or the like or else we can not tell what might be receaued As for that they call our regiment of the Churche a disordred forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement it is but their owne disordred forme of not gouerning well their mindes and tongues Our forme both for the formal material lawes orders therof is far more formal material than this forme of their is Yea if it should come to this or the like what mishapen forme we might happen to haue wee can not yet fore-tell nor they can tell vs. As for that which we haue alreadie we knowe it and we knowe the verie worst thereof The best of theirs is yet vncertaine I graunt our forme is not so well ordered but that there may and do fall out disorders but those happen by the abuse thereof And so it may be in any forme of gouernment neuer so good by mens infirmities or corruptions wherewith the forme it selfe is not to be charged And yet I goe not about to defende our forme or to vaunt thereof for anie such absolute perfection that it could not be altered or amended what Lawe is there not that man can make but it may bee or rather is vnperfect As for the forme that they haue here set foorth be it spoken with our Brethrens pardō if they please besides their disordered setting it forth the very forme it selfe is eyther much disordered or else other formes that other of our Brethren haue also set foorth or that other reformed Churches are gouerned by not onely in Germanie but in Héluetia
times our diuine seruice Our Blast prayer â—old abolish the L prayer all The learned disc pag. 69. 70. 1. Cor. 14.15 16. Bridges Our Brethr. reason of custome from the beginning The Pastors of pâ—â—ying in the 〈◊〉 of the who 〈◊〉 The â—ougâ— dâ—ty of praying with 〈◊〉 The 〈…〉 70. Bridges The Pastors duty of preching His duty of ministring Sâ—â—r and praying The prayers may proceed thogh there be no Sacra ministred at that time The blessing of Mariages referred to prayer An auncient custome of the Church The learned disc Pag. 70. 71. 1. Cor. 11.17 1. Cor. 14 23.2â—.25.16.31 Bridges The churchâ—s authoritie to disposematters of order comlines edificatioâ— The Churches authority Our Brethr. doingâ— with out author The allowance of a prescribed forme of ordinary publike prayer Our brethr duty of obedience to the Church of Eng. disposing a prescribed forme Disobedience Their offence against God The church of Eng hath not ouerrâ—ached her lawfull authority in thosethingâ— ContentioÌ„s Our brethr il demeanor towardes their mother the Churche of England The aduersaries honored their mother too much our Brethren too little ContentioÌ„s disturbers of the churches orders Caluin in 1. Cor. 11.16 The dangeâ— of contention against orders the repressing of contentious men Vrging ceremonies ContentioÌ„s hinder edifying in publike Eccl. assemblies If our publ assemblies be not so effectuall the fault is personall in the parties asseÌ„bled not in the churches orders Caluine in 1. Cor. â— 1. The learned disc pag. 71. 72. Bridges Precisenesse about ceremonies We vrge no ceremonies nothing profiting to edification Edification What and how ceâ—emonies be vrged â—he state Church not to be disturbed for theÌ„ How greatly our Brethrens contentioÌ„s hinder the churches edifying Comlines and order The excellencie of the sentence 1. Cor. 14.40 Comlinesse ioyned with order Order must be ordeined and not broken Our Brethr. fogetfulnes of their duty to their betters aedification not separate from comlinesse and order but included in them Comlines order are their selues an edifying Caluin in 1. Cor. 14.40 The policie of the church directed to comlinesse and order S. Paules purpose was not to driue the good gifts of god out of the Church though they were abused Caluin in 1. Cor. 14.27 The gifts of tongues abused Our Brethr. attemptes to driue out the offices and orders established and to bring in such as are long since wornâ— out or rather meere supposed The learned disc Pag. 72. Bridges VVomens prophesying Our Brethr. doe often quarell at womensprophecying teaching preaching and â—aptizing whereas their selues as much or more than we do infeâ—re it Womens publ speaking in the Church not vtterly forbidden Caluin in 1. Cor. 11.5 Caluines insufficientanswere for women pâ—ophecâ—ing Womens praying and prophecying with their heades couered No lâ—kelihood of S. Paules vtter improuing womens prophecying that had the gift therof Though one place in the scripture be referred to an other yet in no place is the spirit of god contrary to itselfe How these things were forbidden and howe permitted Caluines better aunswere Caluines meaning The interpretation of the geneua Testaments note and Bezaes exposition of womens praying and prophecying 1. Cor. 11.4 Beza in 1. Cor. 11.4 The womeÌ„s prophecying to be nothing but to heare thâ— mens prophecying Aug. contr Maximum Lib. 13. â—a 14. How euerie man and woman present may make publ praier One did not all these things in all their names The sacram not ministâ—ed by all though common to all The difference betwene praying and prophecing But in prophecying â—he Minister representeth one and the people another therfore the hearers cannot be sayd to be the prophecâ—erâ— Caluine Our late disorders in the exercise of prophecying The hearers be the iudges not the propheciers Whome S. Pauls words ment all might prophecy The gift of tongues abused Bezaes reasons of this interpretation Bezaes own reason ouerthrowes his interpretation VVomens prophesying Beza reasoneth a petitione principii Wherin the opposition of S. Paules sentence lieth Bâ—zaes reason returned on him self The inconueniency of this interpretation Beza nowe and then alters his own interpretation The worde Churches nor wel chaÌ„ged not the word assemblies The drife of Beza vtterly to restrayne all Women from speaking in any assemblies Bezaes interpretatioÌ„ reiected The womaÌ„s clayme Deut. 27. Esayes wife Susanna Womens speech The womaÌ„ that praised Christ. Luke 11.17 The womaÌ„ with the bloudie fâ—x The woman of Canaan The woman of Samaria Caluine Womans publike speech Musculus Marlorat out of Bucer Philips four daughters VVomens speech How Caluine cutteth off these examples From womens publike preaching how our breth proceed against womeÌ„s publike gouernment Philips daughters VVhether the 4. virgines prophecying Act. 2â— 9. did it opeÌ„â—io or no. Câ—luine on Act. 2â— 0 Euseb. on the 3. Eccle. hist. cap. 9. Womens publike speaking Womens publike teaching and edifying the Church God free aboue his ordinarie lawe Teaching gouerning How our brethreÌ„ slip from weomens publ speaking to weomens publike gouernmeÌ„t How power teaching concurre differ The power of the Teacher Teachers subiects Of what womens subiection S. Paul speaketh Caluines inconsiderate speech against womens gouernment Caluines il speech of womens gouernmeÌ„t Heere is other gouernment besidâ— teaching whereof women may haue a right How affection carrieth wise godlie men awaie Caluines better speeches Caluines better acknowleging of weomeÌ„s gouernmeÌ„t in the Qu. most excellent Maiesty Caluine craueth the Q. Maiesties patronage for his commeÌ„tary on Esai Caluine confesseth both the Queens Maie right of inheritance to the Crowne Gods calling her to the cheefest care of the Church God the Q. champion and the Qu. the restorer of Gods worship Caluines praise of the Q. maiestie Esaies testimonie for the confirmation of the gouernment of Queenes Danaeus coÌ„cerning womens gouernment 1. Tim. 2.12 Daneus of womeÌ„s gouernment How farre Danaeus granteth womeÌ„ to teach Hemingius in 1. Tim. 2. Danaeus arguments against womens gouernment Danaeus ill argument Danaeus faultie argumeÌ„t both informe and matter The maior proposition Vsurping authoâ—itie ouer men Danaeus euil argument The minor proposition The forme of the argument misformed Danaeus ill argument The very words of the argument senselesse How many wayes a woman may haue lawful gouernmeÌ„t Danaeus euil argument The conclusion of Danaeus argu against womens speaking Necessity admitteth also womeÌ„s publike teaching extraordinarily VVomen regiment Danaeus in 1. Tim. 2.12 Bridges No place in scripture directly against it Wom. regimeÌ„t honest Womenâ— gouern not vnhonest Our brethâ— offence in calling the â—onestie of womens regiment into questioÌ„ The dangerous inconueniences of these Questionistes Our dutiful obedience and thankfulnesse to God her Maiesty Questions of Womens regiment What supreme gouernment princes haue ineccl maters The princes roial speech quickning the Lawes that are made The Salike Law against womens regiments Caluines Danaeus inclination to the deuise the lawe Salike Diuerse womeÌ„ haue had the regiment of Fraunce Cenalis
suche Controllers not â—eachers Lucretius What Elders Hierom. alloweth of Danaeâ—s in 1. Tim. 5.19 The superior gouernmeÌ„t of one in euery company The orders and gouernments of that Ierome coÌ„meâ—deth Hier. in epis ad Euagr. Danaeus allegation of the Canon Law for this Senate of Elders Canon Eccl. 16 quest 1. The Canan Lawe Canon Absque Synodali causa 15. quest 7. * Le ui aura These elderâ— were ministers of the sacrameâ—ts The B. his Clearks Who these Elders and Clarks were that these CanoÌ„s haue relation vnto The difference of the Cleark of the Monke The Monks payde tithes offerings to the elders The Elders might excoÌ„municate the Monkeâ— The cause of our Bret. these reuerend meÌ„s mistaking theâ—e allegations of these Elderâ— Mistaking the fathers Danaeus in 2. parte Christ. Isag. Cap. 7. Caluines allegation of the same in Instit. cap 8. sect 42 The Scripture of the Elders WhoÌ„ Cal. thinâ—eth â—o be the gouernors Bom 12 1. Cor. 12. Rom. 12. For gouernors Caluines interpretation not necessary Euery Church had not a Sanate Gouernors This consistory of these elders not necessary Rom. 12. Of the perpetuity and necessity of Deacons Danaeus in Christ. Isag. 2. para ca. 10. The Elders mentioned Act. 20. 1. Pet 5. were Pastorall Elders by our Brethrens owne confession Danaeus coÌ„tradiction to our Br. for the Elders in these places Caluinuâ— in Instit. ca. 8. sect 4. The Elders Act. 20. P. 5 Caluine coÌ„trary to Danaeus for the Elders Act. 20. Calv. in Inst. ca. 8. sect 42. Calvine coÌ„fesseth that the place Act. 20. is only of ministers of the word Caluinus in Act. 20. ver 17. The Elders Gouernors Ver. 18. These Elders that were gouernors and and correctors of maÌ„ners were also teachers Those whoÌ„ Danaeus calleth gouerning not teaching Elders Caluin calleth Pastors Bishops feeders with the word Elders 1. Pet. 5. Our Breth sestimonie against Danaeus for the Elders 1. Pet. 5. Caluinus in Instit. ca. 13. sect 7. For the Elders 1. Pe. 5. EueÌ„ the generall name of ecl Elders for gouernors exemplified by teachers The office of their Eldership consisting in feeding The wordes of Peter spoken to feeders haled to such as are not feeders The seueral parishes of the Elders As Daneus reporteth Sozomenus there was but one Elder in euery parish Eccl. hist. Hermiae Sozomeni li. 1. cap. 2. Sozomenus for these Elders * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Danaeus miscollection of Sozomenus wordes Sozomenus mistaken The lack of through serching the cause of our Br. mistaking Act. 17.11 The Elders that Sozomenus meÌ„tioneth wer teaching elders Danaeus testimony for for these elders Act. 21.18 Act. 21.18 The probabilities that the Elders mentioned Act. 21.18 were teachers These Elders were exhorters of Paul They were such as froÌ„ whoÌ„ knowledge shuld begin They were such as wer not of the people but distinct froÌ„ them Act. 21. 15. These elders Act. 21. are here plainly called Doctors Danaeus testimonie for those Elders Phil. 4. v. 8. Phil. 4.8 Caluinus in institus cap. 8. sec. 42. Phil. 4.8 2. Tim. 3. Danaeus other allegations for Elders all which also are cleane against him Act. 20. Aug. in hom 50. hom 5. 7. Esa. 58. Difference of the false teacher and true teacher Danaeus testimonie 1. Pet. 3. maketh nothing for Eccl. Elders that are not teachers Danaeus testimonies 1. Cor. 14.34 35. are likewise nothing for Eccl. Elders not teachers Iames. 5.14 for these Elders Danaeuâ— testimony for theâ—e Elders out of Ia. 5. and 14. Caluines opinion for these Elders Dâ—naeus coÌ„trarie to Caluine Iames. 5. Aretius iudgement of what Elders Iames speaketh The Elders that Iames speaketh to be of no one certaine office either Ecclesiasticall or laie persons Caluines owne testimonie that these Elders were Ministers of a teÌ„porarie Sacrament so teachers Our Bre. discoursers confute Danaeus Act. 14.23 Our brethr returne for proofe of these Eldeâ—s to the â—ormer allegâ—tion Act. 14.23 The learned Dis. Pag. 85. 86. Act. 14.23 Bridges Moderating these Elders The text meÌ„cioneth not that the Apostles set the Churches in perfect order established discipline The learned Dis. Pag. 86. The popular state Bridges The reducing of al to the popular state S. Paules excommunication 1 Cor. 5. The learned disc pag. 86 1. Cor. 5.4 Bridges S. Paule by his separate authoritie gaue seÌ„teÌ„ce of excoÌ„munication before the Corinthians knew of his doing No such CoÌ„sistorie among the Corinthians The manifestnesse of thâ— fact ExcoÌ„munication 1. Cor. 5. The order of discipline that our Br. prescribe therto wrest S. Pauls excoÌ„munication The learned disc Pag. 87. Math. 18.17 Bridges Mat. 18. for these Elders Our Breth supposall of Christeâ— wordes The admonition may be done without a Consistorie likewise â—xcoâ—m Mat. 28. Our Brethr. varying in this place Math. 18. The Consistorie that our Br. call the Church consisting but of one of these Eldâ—rs The learned disc pag. 87 88. Math. 11.6 Bridges Allusion to the Sanedrin Allusions to the Sanedrim Our Breth proues of these Elders â—ut of this place Math. 18. The head of all this question Christes wordes directly Chrysostom Hierome Hilarie Theophilact Vatablus Aretius Mansterus Caluines prooues on Mat. 18. Caluines applying Christes words to the rewes Sanedrim Caluines prooues on Mat. 28. Caluins reasons for this Segniorie of Elders to be renewed to the Christians froÌ„ the oloÌ„e Sanedrim by this place Ma. 18 Caluine the principall interpreter of Christs words for a consistory of Elders The examination of these proues of Caluine The incâ—stuous person not excom by a Consistorie of the Church Caluines reasons for these Elders on Mat. 18. There was a church wheÌ„ Christ spake these words Mat. 18. and a Church that had orders when Paule wrote to the Cor. Bucer vsing Caluins reason applies it to no such CoÌ„sistorie No excom without Pastors B. That the Chur. may be without excomm The Ministers office and power in the church Bucer referâ— vs to Aug. for excommunication The admission of this allusion inferreth no perpetuall rule of a like Consistory Calu. owne example ouerthrowes this perpetuity What Seniors among the Iewes had the power of excommunication The gouernors of the Church are not so aptly sayde to represent the Church Danaeus 2. part Chri. Isag. li. 2. c. 10. What Presbytery that was Act. 22. Caluin for the Sanedrin The SynedrioÌ„ or Sanhedrin was not in Esdras time How our Bret. run to the corruptions of Iewish traditioÌ„s to seeke out the grounds of this coÌ„sistory of gouerning Elders Christes wordes import no translation of the Iewes Sanedrin to the Christians Supra Pag. 23â— What discipline succeeded in the place of the olde discipline Calu. argument from comparison of the Gentiles The shame and daunger of this newe Sanâ—drin Noua glossa Stephani in Math. 18 Bertramus de politia Iudaica The 70. Elders not first ordeined NuÌ„ 11. BertraÌ„ of the Iewes Elders Of