followeth after sheweth in what sense he tooke the word supreme At this day sayth he where Poperie continueth howe many are there which lode the king with all the right and power they can that there should be no disputing of religion but this authoritie should rest in the king alone to appoint at his pleasure what hee list and that to stande good without contradiction They that first so highly aduanced king Henry of England were inconsiderate they gaue him supreme power of all thinges and that was it which alway wounded me Then succeede your wordes and withall a particular exemplication howe Steuen Gardiner alleaged and constred the Kings stile in Germanie That Iuggler which after was Chauncelour I meane the Bishop of Winchester when hee was at Rentzburge neither would stande to reason the matter nor greatly cared for any testimonies of the scriptures but said it was at the kinges discretion to abrogate that which was in vse appoint new He said the king might forbid priests mariage the king might barre the people from the cup in the Lordes supper the king might determine this or that in his kingdome And why Forsooth the king had supreme power This sacrilege hath taken hold on vs in Germanie whiles Princes think they cannot raign except they abolish al the authoritie of the church be thēselues supreme Iudges as wel in doctrin as in al spirituall regiment This was the sense which Caluin affirmed to bee sacrilegious and blasphemous for Princes to professe them-selues supreme Iudges of Doctrine and discipline and in deede it is the blasphemie which all godly heartes reiect and abomine in the Bishoppe of Rome Neither did King Henry take any such thing on him for ought that wee can learne But this was Gardiners Stratageme to conuey the reproche and shame of the sixe articles from himselfe and his fellowes that were the authors of them and to cast it on the kings supreme power Had Caluin been told that supreme was first receiued to declare the Prince to be superior to the Prelats which exempted themselues from the Kings authoritie by their Church liberties and immunities as well as to the Lay men of this realme and not to bee subiect to the Pope who claymed a iurisdiction ouer all Princes and Countries the woorde woulde neuer haue offended him but as this wylye foxe framed his answere when the Germanes communed with him about the matter wee blame not Caluin for mistaking but the Bishop of Winchester for peruerting the kings stile wresting it to that sense which all good men abhorre Phi. Do not you at this day make the Queene supreme Gouernour of al ecclesiasticall doctrine and discipline And what discrepance I pray you between Iudge and Gouernour Theo. You may be Steuen Gardiners scholer you bee so wel trained in his methode and maximes Wee told you long since and often enough if that will serue the prince by her stile doth not chalenge neither do we by our othe giue her highnes power to debate decide or determine any point of fayth or matter of religion much lesse to bee supreme iudge or gouernour of all doctrine and discipline But if in her realme you will haue the assistance of the magistrates swoord to settle the trueth and prohibite error and by wholesome punishments to preuent the disorders of all degrees that authoritie lieth neither in Prelate nor Pope but onely in the Prince and therefore in her Dominions you can neither establish doctrine nor discipline by publike Lawes without her consent This neither Caluin nor the compilers of the Centuries nor any other of sound religion euer did or iustly can mislike onely Iesuites their adherents would faine reserue this power to the Pope in al Christian realmes because they be sure he will allowe and suffer no religion but his owne and so long their profession shall not miscarie Phi. The Centurists say Princes may not bee heads of the Church that primacie is not fit for them Theo. That word if they mislike wee stand not for it The holy Ghost hath inuested the sonne of God with it and therefore reason princes euen for reuerence to him should forbeare the stile which hee first vsed most esteemeth And though some defence might be brought for the word as that which Samuel said to Saul When thou wast litle in thine own sight wast thou not made HEAD of the tribes of Israel For the Lorde annoynted thee king ouer Israel and that which Dauid sayth of himself Thou hast made me HEAD of the heathen and that which Esai saith of the king of Syria THE HEAD of Aram is Damascus and the HEAD of Damascus is Rezni and again the honorable mā he is the HEAD as also S. Paul the man is the womans HEAD Chrysostom not sticking to call certaine women that laboured in the Gospel HEAD OF THE CHVRCH at Philippi and saying of Theodosius the Emperor Summitas caput omnium super terram hominum SVPREME AND HEAD of all mortall men Though these and many like places might bee brought to auouche the worde HEAD yet because that title HEAD OF THE CHVRCH rightly and properly belongeth onely to Christ not to Princes without many mitigations and cautions and head as it is applied to Princes is al one with Supreme for it importeth but the chiefest or highest person of the Church on earth and with the regiment of the Church whereof Christ is head I meane his mysticall bodie Princes haue nothing to doe yea many times they be scant members of it and the Church in each countrie may stand without Princes as in persecution it doth and yet they not headlesse we thinke not good to contend with our brethren for wordes and to greeue their eares with titles first abused by the pope and first reproued in him so long as in matter and meaning there is no discord betwixt vs. Phi. Will you make vs beleeue they mislike nothing but the wordes head of the Church Theo. Yeas they mislike that Princes should mingle trueth with falsehood and temper religion with corruption as their priuate fancies lead them which we mislike no lesse than they This is the scope of our speach say they that it is not lawful for ciuill Magistrates to deuise formes of religion in destruction of the truth and so to reconcile truth and error that they may both be lulled asleepe They may not prescribe religions alone they must not ingender new articles of the faith they must not strangle the trueth with errors and shackle it when it is reueiled that they may let loose the bridle to corruption These be the points which they dislike and we be as farre from approuing any such thing in Princes as you or they Phi. If the Prince establish any religion whatsoeuer it be you must by your oth obey it Theo. We must not rebel and take armes against the prince
against our Soueraigne you neither may nor doe refuse to bee commenders assisters perfourmers of his vngodlie purposes tende they neuer so much to the preiudice of this Realme and disturbance of her Maiesties Title State and wel-fare Which tyranous vsurpation in him and trayterous affection in you no Father that is Catholicke did euer allowe no Prince that is auncient did euer endure And as for your skattered and maymed examples which here you heape to fraie the simple with emptie names and loftie words not one of them auoucheth and such matter or meaning Phi. If they prooue not the Popes iurisdiction ouer Princes which you stoutelie denie yet I trust they proue that wee may sende or goe to Rome to bee resolued in doubtes of Religion and to bee relieued in times of affliction which is all wee require Theophil Counsell in cases of fayth and comforte in dayes of daunger bee no signes of authoritie but dewties of Charitie neyther those peculiar to the Bishoppe of Rome but common to the whole Church of God and therefore if your examples reache no farther but that Princes haue beene sometimes aduised and other good men harbored by the Bishops of Rome whiles the Citie was famous for learning and religion you take great paines to proue that which neither helpeth you nor hindereth vs. All this may bee graunted and your running to Rome no whit the sooner concluded to bee lawfull Phi. What reason barreth vs now from trauelling to Rome more than others heretofore Theo. Your holie Father pretendeth and exerciseth in our daies a monstrous and pernicious power ouer the Church of Christ which at that time when these godly men wrote and repayred to Rome was neither attempted by him nor mistrusted by them So that they might resort to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt without offence to the Church or contempt to the state because the Bishops then behaued themselues as religious members not as presumptuous heades of the Church and liued as subiectes not as superiors to the Prince you can now not flie to the Bishop of Rome but you must do violent wrong to them both to the Prince by renouÌ„cing your subiection breaking your oth and bearing armes against your liege Ladie when the Pope commaundeth to the Church in thinking teaching the Bishop of Rome to bee the decider of all doubtes vpholder of all truth expounder of all Scriptures Confirmer of all Councelles dispenser with all lawes yea supreme and infallible Iudge of all men and all matters that any waie touch or concerne Religion Which strange and incredible pride those examples which you bring are so far from allowing that we need no better witnesse to confute you with Phi. You doe but iest I dare saie Theo. Examine the particulars you shall finde them make cleane against you or at least nothing for you The Bishop of Rome you saie gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britanes restored it afterward in the dayes of the English recouered vs from Paganisme from Arianisme from Pelagianisme from Zwinglianisme This last I may skip as a fond effect of your distempered choler The Gospell nowe preached among vs you call in your heat Zwinglianisme from the which though some of you be lightly stept I trust in God the worst your holie Father can doe shall neuer remoue vs. That this lande was infected with Arianisme and Pelagianisme as manie other places then were I finde it reported in the storie of Bede that the Bishop of Rome recouered vs from both or from either I finde it not yea rather certaine it is the Bishoppes of Fraunce our neighbours vppon request made vnto them by the Britanes sent Germanus and Lupus two french Bishoppes chosen in a Synode by the generall liking to conuert this Realme from Pelagius error which also they did with great celeritie So that of those foure recoueries to the faith which you reckon in fauour of the Bishoppes of Rome the last is the present estate which we striue for the two next be false the first is only left that furthereth your conclusion but little Phi. Will you denie that the Bishop of Rome first caused the Britanes and Saxons to bee christened Theo. I will denie nothing that is true presume you no more than you proue and we shall soone growe to an ende Lucius an auncient king of the Britanes wrote to Eleutherius Bishop of Rome for his helpe that him selfe and his people might be baptised and Gregorie the great sent Augustine the Moncke to see whether he could king Edelbert and the Saxons Doth this proue the Pope superiour to Princes or that he may send his factours hither without the Princes leaue Phi. There was somewhat in it that Lucius sent so farre Theo. This Realme was then rude learning here skant religion newly sprong no where setled Coilus his father brought vp at Rome from a child and one that of his owne accorde yeelded both friendship and tribute to the Romanes Lucius himselfe a great fauourer of the Romane Empire and no place neere home so famous well furnished with able men to serue his turne as Rome What maruaile then if Lucius so wel acquainted and frinded at Rome before thought best to be thence directed and instructed at his first entrie to the Christian faith But can you proue that Lucius was bounde to doe that hee did or that Eleutherius did any thing against the Princes will Phi. I say not so Theo. Then this example maketh litle for you which be sent hither not only without the Princes leaue but against her liking and Lawes to withdrawe the peoples hearts from her and to prepare them for a farther purpose Gregories fact in sending to conuert the Saxons maketh lesse For Augustine and his felowes notwithstanding they were sent from Rome as you are and taught nothing but subiection and obedience to Princes which you doe not yet woulde they not enter this land without the kings consent and permission but rested in the Isle of Tenet til his pleasure were knowne and offered not to preach in this Realme before the king in expresse wordes gaue them licence They came not in disguised as you doe they lurked not in corners they traueled not by night they brought no bulles in their bosomes to discharge the subiects and depose the Prince the Bishop of Rome that sent them neither stirred rebellion nor inuaded king Edelberts dominion And where you being subiects offer that wrong to a Christian Queene which they being straungers did not to an heathen king yet would you beare men in hand you follow their example but lay downe the true report of these stories and see howe handsomely they fitte your conclusion Eleutherius being requested by king Lucius sent some to baptise him and his subiects and Gregorie sent others to tâ—â—e whether king Edelbert woulde giue them leaue to preach to the Saxons ergo you may flee to the Bishoppe of
to attend on his person Phi. And they be seruants as well as others Theo. It may be so neither do I denie that Princes must serue but whom Phi. The church so saith S. Hierom The nations kings that will not serue the church shall perish with that destruction which is prepared for the wicked Theo. You should shew that Princes which will not serue the Pope must loose their crownes Phi. Grant that Princes must serue the church for the rest we will do well enough Theo. First grant you that Popes were subiects seruants to christiā Princes 850. yeares after Christ which I haue proued you haue not answered and for seruice to be done by Princes to the church of Christ I will not long dissent Phi. Howe can they serue the church not serue the Pope which is head of the church Theo. To whom were these wordes spoken The kingdome that will not serue thee shall perish Phi. To the church Theo. To the whole church or to some speciall members of the church Phi. To the whole Theo. Then may the poorest member of Christs church euery Parish-priest chalenge to be the master of Princes to be serued at their hands as well as the Pope That which is spoken to all must be common to all Againe your owne answere ouerthroweth your own assertiō for this was spoken you say to the church but the Pope is not the church ergo this was not spoken to the Pope Phi. You go too far It was spoken to the whole but not ment of the whole Theo. Of whom then was it mēt Phi. Of the head which is a part of the whole The members of Christs church are not bound to serue one an other but all to serue the head In respect of their head they be seruants in respect of themselues they be brethren Theo. Is the head a part of the bodie Phi. Though the head can not properly be called a member of the bodie but the head yet in the whole are contained both the head and the members as in an Armie sometimes the Captaine and Souldiers and a kingdom compriseth both the king and his subiects Theo. Then where Esaie saith to Ierusalem kingdoms shall serue thee that is not euery member of thee but the chiefest and noblest part of thee which is the head that all the members serue Phi. And that head is the Pope Theo. When you proue the Pope to bee head of the church then call for Princes to doe him seruice In the meane time let Princes heare what Dauid saith Bee wise yee kinges serue the Lord and what our Sauiour alleadgeth Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him onelie shalt thou serue At the name of Iesus euerie knee shall bowe of thinges in heauen and of thinges on earth Yea let not onely Princes but all the Angels of God worship him hee is the head to the church which is his bodie Your holy father must staie for his seruice till his headship may be found in some better records than in your bare supposals Phi. You infer this vpon my confession which I may change vppon better aduisement The nation kingdom that wil not serue thee shall perish No doubt these words bind Princes to do seruice to the church if not to the Pope Theo. You bound them before to serue the head and not the bodie now you wil haue them serue the bodie and not the head Well since there is no more hold in your word I will take surer hold of Esaies wordes The text which you bring is allegorical as the whole chap. besides is therefore you may draw no literal conclusion from these words no more than from wals gates brasse yron gold siluer Sunne Moone milk teats camels rammes firre trees pine-trees which also be reckned and promised to Ierusalem in this place Phi. Run you to allegories Theo. You cannot run from them vnlesse you run from this chapter read it ouer and see whether I faine or no. Phi. Shall then the promises of God be frustrate because the speaches bee figuratiue Theo. Did I saie they should No they bee greater and richer than mans tongue can expresse But if you presse the letter they bee false and absurde For example All the sheepe of Kedar shall bee gathered vnto thee the rammes of Nabaioth shall serue thee For brasse will I bring golde and for yron siluer for wood brasse and for stones yron Thou shalt haue no more Sunne to shine by daie neither shall the brightnesse of the Moone shine vnto thee These thinges bee not literally true Phi. I know they be not Theo. The whole chapter goeth after the same sort expressing by temporal and terrestrial things the blessings of God vpō his church which be celestial and eternal Phi. I mislike not this Theo. Euen so the seruice which kinges must do to the church is not corporall nor external such as seruing-men yeeld to their masters or subiectes to their superiours but an inward deuotion and an humble submission to the graces and mercies of God proposed offered in his church In effect kings must become religious faithful members of the church to serue God in holines righteousnes al the daies of their life To beleeue the word that is preached to frequent the sacraments that be ministred to fear the Lord that is honored in al aboue al this is the seruice which the church of Christ hartily wisheth earnestly seeketh at al mens hāds other solemnities with cap and knee shee neither liketh nor looketh for Phi. Kinges in respect of their calling must serue the church I meane with their princely power Theo. You say somwhat In deed kings in that they be kings haue to serue the Lord so as none cā do which are not kings For their power ought so to serue the Lord that by their power they which refuse to be subiect to the wil of God should be punished but this seruice you will not haue thē to busie with if happily they command against your liking you not only discharge thē of their seruice but of their kingdoms also Phi. Not if they serue the church as Esaie saith they should Theo. The seruice that is done to Christ the church imbraceth as done to hir self because she requireth no more but that Christ her Lord master be serued and yet the seruice which I nowe speake of namely to preserue subiects in godlines quietnes with wholsome lawes to fraie men from vices heresies is done to Christ not in respect of himselfe but of his church concerneth the profit welfare of the whole church euery mēber thereof Phi. This is not to serue but to rule the church Theo. Kings as kings that is as publike Magistrates can not serue the church but by defending her members repressing her enemies this is better seruice to God his church than that which
them all obedience with armed violence to take their swords from them but thereof more hereafter In the meane time your argument is very foolish Priestes must not deliuer the Sacramentes but on such conditions as God hath limited ergo Priests be superiour to Princes You might haue concluded ergo God is superiour to them both in that he prescribeth how the one shal deliuer the other take the Seales of his grace but for the Priest no such illation can be made For were you Porter in any Princes palace and commaunded that no man Noble nor other shoulde enter the Court with weapon woulde you thence conclude your selfe superiour to all the Nobles and counsellours of the Land because you might not suffer thē to come within the gates except they first lay their swords aside or would you rather excuse your selfe that the Princes precept being streit and you a seruaunt you could not choose but do your dutie and put them in minde of your Lord and masters pleasure Phi. Our case is not like The. You say truth You haue not so much reason to make Priestes superiour to Princes as this Officer hath to prefer himselfe before all other persons Princes haue soueraign power ouer the goods liues bodies of Priestes Nobles haue not ouer the meanest attendant in the Princes Court Princes must be obeyed or endured with meekenesse and reuerence offer they neuer so hard dealing to their Preachers and Pastours That submission no man oweth to any subiect be he neuer so Noble And therefore euerie seruant in the Princes house hath better cause to aduance himselfe before al the Nobles of the Realme than you haue to set the Priest aboue the Prince whom God himselfe hath pronounced superiour to the Priestes and to whom he will haue euerie soule bee they Monkes Priestes or Bishoppes to be subiect with al submission duetie Much lesse is this a warrant for you to depose Princes and to pursue them with armes against the preceptes of God against the generall and continuall obedience and order of Christs Church as you shal perceiue in place where for this present go on with your absurd lies I shoulde haue said absurdities Phi. It derogateth from Christes Priesthood which both in his owne person and in the Church is aboue his kingly dignitie Theo. Call you this a derogation from Christes Priesthood if the Pope may not tread Princes vnder his feet Your Seminaries must needes be famous that coine vs such conclusions Phi. Neuer mocke at our Seminaries you shall finde them too well furnished for your stoare Theo. So wee thinke your learning is so strange it passeth our intelligence Wee fooles conceiue not how these thinges hang togither For first what meane you by this The Priesthood of Christ in his owne person is aboue his kingly dignitie He is king of glorie in that he is the sonne of God can you name any thing in Christ that is aboue his diuine dignitie Your doctrine is verie curious if it be not dangerous The glorie of the sonne of God as hee is owner and ruler of all thinges in heauen and earth hath no title nor name aboue it As a Priest he purged our sinnes in humilitie as a king hee nowe doeth and euer shall raigne in the highest degree of celestiall and euerlasting glorie His Priesthood washed our vncleannesse in this life His kingdome placeth and preserueth men and Angels in perfect and eternall blisse If you speake this in respect of vs that the Priesthood of Christ which washeth our sinnes and saueth vs from the wrath to come is more comfortable and accceptable to our weake consciences by reason of our guiltinesse and daily transgressions than the power wherewith hee subdueth his enemies besides the straungenesse of your speach that his Priestood should bee aboue his kinglie dignitie in his owne person note the losenesse of your argument The Priesthood of Christ in fauour and mercie to vs ward is aboue his power ergo the Prince must be subiect to the Pope May not we much rather conclude Christ cōpelleth punisheth as a king not as a Priest ergo power to commaund punish belongeth to the kingdom not to the Priesthood that is to the Magistrate not to the minister Phi. It diuideth which is a matter of much importance the state of the Catholike Church and the holie communion or societie of all Christian men in the same into as manie partes not communicant one with an other nor holding one of an other as there be worldlie kingdoms differing by Customs Lawes manners ech from other which is of much pernicious sequele and against the verie natiue quality of the most perfect coniunction society vnitie and intercourse of the whole Church euery Prouince and Person thereof togither Theo. It is a most pernicious fansie to thinke the communion of Christes Church dependeth vpon the Popes person or regimēt and that diuerse nations and countries differing by customes lawes maners so they hold one the same rule of faith in the band of peace can not be parts of the Catholike Church communicant one with an other perfectly vnited in spirite and truth ech to other And fie on your follies that racke your Creede rob Christ of his honor and the Church of all her comfort and securitie whiles you make the vnitie and societie of Christes members to consist in obedience to the Bishop of Rome and not in coherence with the sonne of God The communion of Saintes and neere dependaunce of the Godly ech of other and all of their heade standeth not of externall rites customes and manners as you woulde fashion out a Church obseruing the Popes Canons and deseruing his pardones as his deuote and zealous children but in beleeuing the same trueth tasting of the same grace resting on the same hope calling on the same God reioycing in the same spirite whereby they bee sealed sanctified and preserued against the daie of redemption And why may not Christians in all kingdomes countries haue this communion and fellowshippe though they lacke your holy fathers beads blessinges and such like bables To what ende you alleadge S. Augustine in that place which you quote we cannot so much as coniecture you must speake plainly what you would haue we be not bounde to make search for your meaning As for the communion of the Catholike Church it is not broken by the varietie and diuersitie of rites customes Lawes and fashions which many places and Countries haue different ech from others except they be repugnant to faith or good manners as S. Augustine largely debateth in his epistle to Ianuarius and Irineus whē the bishop of Rome would haue cut the East Churches from the communion of the West for obseruing Easter after an other maner order than their brethrē did sharpely reproued him and shewed him that Polycarpus and Anicetus dissenting in the same case Communionem
father and his Cardinals were eighteene yeres prouoking working the Princes States adherent to them to spill christian blood to make hauocke of al places persons that were not â—â—â—dient to the Bishop of Rome yet you count it some great absurditie for vs to reiect this Councell as not generall Phi. You acknowledge no subiection to Councels or Tribunals abroad all other Bishops Patriarkes Apostles Christ all because they were be forrainers not hauing iurisdiction or sufficieÌ„t authoritie to define against English Sectaries or Errors And this when a Realme or Prince is in error taketh away all meanes of reducing theÌ„ to the truth againe Theo. To Christ his Apostles we acknowledge more subiection than you doe We honor adore him as the true son of God equall with his father in authority maiesty We make him no forrainer to this Realm as you do but professe him to be the only master redeemer ruler of his church as wel in this as in all other Nations To whom Princes Preachers are but seruaÌ„ts the preachers to propose the Princes to execute his will commandements whom all that wil be saued must beleeue obey aboue against all Councels Tribunals be they regall or papall if they dissent from his word The preachings writings of the Apostles we receiue with greater reuereÌ„ce exacter obedience than you do We giue no man leaue to dispence against theÌ„ which your law witnesseth of the Pope Papa coÌ„tra ApostoluÌ„ dispensat The Pope dispeÌ„seth against the Apostle We neuer said as Pigghius saith The Apostles wrote certaine things not that their writinges should bee aboue our faith and religion but rather vnder Wee confesse The Apostles were men allowed of God to whom the Gospel should be committed therefore we receiue the word from theÌ„ not as the word of man but as it is in deed the word of God assuring our selues it is the power of God to saue all that beleeue detesting your erronious and heynous presumptions that take vppon you to adde alter diminish and dispence with that which the spirite of Christ spake as well by the pennes as mouthes of the Apostles To Councels such as the Church of Christ was wont by the helpe of her religious Princes to call we owe communion and brotherly concord so long as they make no breach in faith nor in christian charitie subiection and seruitude wee owe them none the blessed Angels professe themselues to bee fellowe seruantes with the Sainctes on earth what are you then that with your Tribunals and iurisdictions woulde bee Lordes and Rulers ouer Christes inheritance Peter saith Cyprian whom the Lord made first choice of on whom he built his church when Paul after stroue with him for Circumcision did not take vpon him nor chalenge any thing insolentlie or arrogantly nor aduaunce him-selfe as Primate and one to whom the nouices and puinees shoulde bee subiect And as it were in open defiance of your Tribunals and iurisdictions which Stephen the Bishoppe of Rome began then to exercise he directeth the Bishops assembled in a Councell at Carthage on this wise It resteth that of this matter wee speake euerie one of vs what we thinke iudging no man nor remouing any man from the communion though he be not of our minde For none of vs maketh himselfe Bishop of Bishops or by terrour like a tyrant forceth his collegues to yeeld him obedience whether they will or no considering euerie Bishop by reason of his Episcopal power and freedom hath the rule of his owne iudgement as one that can not bee iudged of an other nor hee him-selfe iudge an other but let vs al expect the tribunal or iudgement of our Lord Iesus Christ which only solely hath power to set vs in the gouernment of his Church and to iudge of our actes And because you be so earnest with vs for subiection to Tribunals abroade to bee plaine with you it is boyes plaie before you name them or proue that wee owe them any subiection to skore it vppe as an absurditie that wee acknowledge none vnto them and yet least you shoulde thinke vs the first that refused Tribunals abroade you shall see that ancient and worthy fathers haue done the like before vs. What Tribunals abroade did Cyprian and the 80. Bishoppes at Carthage with him acknowledge when hee saide as you hearde Christus vnus solus habet potestatem de actu nostro iudicandi Christ only and none else hath authoritie to iudge of our act And agaiâ—e Episcopus ab alâ—o iudicari non potest cum non ipse nec alterum iudicare A Bishop may not be iudged of others nor iudge others Expectemus vniuersi iudicium Christi Let vs all both abroad and at home expect the iudgement of Christ. What Tribunals abroade did Polycrates and the Bishops of Asia with him acknowledge when hee replied to the Bishoppe of Rome threatning to excommunicate him and the rest Non turbaborijs quae terrendi gratia obijciuntur I passe not for these threats that are offered to terrifie me What Tribunals abroad did S. Aug. the 216. African Bishops acknowledge when they decreed that none Appealing ouer the Sea to Tribunals abroad should be receiued to the communion within Africa And when they repelled the Bishop of Rome laboring to place his Legates a latere within their Prouince willed him nâ—t to bring Fumosum seculi Typhum That smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ What Tribunals abroad did the Bishop of the Britons acknowledge when they proued to August the Moncke that was sent from Rome that they ought him no subiection Nay what Tribunal abroad did Greg. the Bishop of Rome chalenge when he wrote thus to Eulogius Bishop of Alexandria Vestra beatitudo mihi loquitur diceÌ„s sicut iussistis quod verbuÌ„ iussionis peto à meo auditu remouete quia scio quis sum qui estis Loco enim mihi fratres estis moribus patres NoÌ„ ergo iussi sed quae vtilia visa sunt iudicare curauâ— Your blessednes in your letters saith to me as you coÌ„maÌ„ded which word of coÌ„maÌ„ding I beseech you remoue froÌ„ mine eares because I know who I am what you are In calling you are brethreÌ„ to me in behauior fathers I did not theÌ„ coÌ„mand you but aduertise you what semed best to me The same Greg. teacheth you what it is for any one man to require vniuersall subiection of the whole church as your holie father now doth If Paul saith he would not haue the meÌ„bers of the Lords body to be subiect to any heads but to Christ no not to the Apostles themselues what wilt thou answere to Christ the head of the vniuersall church in the last daie of iudgement which goest about to haue all his members in subiection to thee by the
must haue Theo. The charge which Christ gaue Peter to feede his sheepe is common to all Pastours But with the mercy which Christ shewed him in conuerting him and restoring him after his fall what haue his successors to do Christ promised Peter repentance will you therefore inferre that all Popes haue the like promises Or had they as they haue not doeth this let but they may forsweare their master and loose their faith as Peter did notwithstanding this praier and promise of Christ made vnto him Phi. But they shall also repent as Peter did Theo. If you could proue that promise to pertaine vnto them as you can not yet might their errour be publike and their conuersion secret as Peters was and since they bee subiect to Peters fall namely to denie both their faith and their master though they were promised repentance with him as they bee not yet howe can you knowe what thinges proceeded from the Popes mouth erring and which from the Popes hart repenting Which vnlesse you doe you may erre with him to your eternall confusion and not repent with him for that you haue not the like promise Phi. I will bee with you to the worldes ende saith Christ and hee forsaketh those that erre So that if the church should erre this promise of his were not kept which God forbid Theo. You shew the goodnesse of your cause when you reele thus from the Pope to the church and from the church to the Pope and yet finde nothing to fitte you Christ is with euery one of his and not onely with the Pope as you would haue the place to sound and yet I thinke you will not affirm that no christian can erre Many good men haue erred euen in matters of faith and yet not beene forsaken of Christ. The longer you reason the farther you bee from prouing that the Pope can not erre For this promise concerneth him no more than it doth any other christian and perhaps not so much or if it did yet doth it not free him from errour Phi. The promise which is generall to euery member of the church concerneth him chiefly that is head of the church Theo. Keepe this head of yours till the body need it the church of Christ hath a surer and better head thā the Pope or else it were ill with her Phi. Christ we know is the head of his church and the onely head in such soueraigne and principall manner as no earthly man is or can be yet the Pope may be the ministeriall head Theo. When you proue it then say it in the meane while abuse not the word of God to serue your follies Christ dwelleth in the hartes of all that bee his by faith with them he remaineth vntill the worldes end What is this to the Pope or how doth this fense him from errour Phi. If he be Christs he can not erre Theo. This text doth not proue him to be one of Christs but if he bee then Christ is with him as hee is with all other his members Phi. And they can not erre with whom Christ is Theo. Bee these your demonstrations that the Pope can not erre to shewe for him no better nor other priuilege than that which is common to him with women children if they be mēbers of Christ And were he a mēber of Christ which as yet for ought that I see you can hardly proue hee might be deceiued in some cases of religion as well as Lactantius Irineus Cyprian and others men of great learning and good account in the church of God Phi. Our Sauiour saieth it is not possible that the electe shoulde be seduced Theo. Not possible they should bee seduced to fall from God as the wicked are Yet as they may sinne but not vnto death euen so may they erre but not vnto destruction Their errour shall either be not finall or not mortall Phi. May they that erre bee saued Theo. If they holde fast the foundation which is Christ and erre not of wilfull obstinacie but of humane frailtie why may they not bee saued S. Cyprian said of those that were before him If any of our predecessours either ignorantly or simply did not obserue and keepe that which the Lord by his example and authoritie willed his simplicitie may be pardoned by the goodnesse of God And S. Augustin said of him when an errour of his was alleadged by the Donatistes for their defence Cyprian either was not all of this opinion or he after corrected it by the rule of truth or this blemish in his most beautifull brest he couered with the teates of charity And farther alleadgeth and alloweth this saying of Cyprians Ignosci potest simpliciter erranti he that erreth of simplicity may be pardoned Of himselfe and all others S. Augustine saith Homines sumus vnde aliquid aliter sapere quà m se res habet humana tentatio est In nullo autem aliter sapere quā se res habet Angelica perfectio est We are men and therefore to thinke otherwise than the truth is is humane infirmitie or a tentation common to man To be deceiued in nothing is Angelicall perfection And therefore writing to S. Hierom and of S. Hierom he saith Prorsus non te arbitror sic legi libros tuos velle tanquam Prophetarum aut Apostolorum de quorum scriptis quòd omni errore careant dubitare nefarium Absit hoc à pia humilitate veraci de temetipso cogitatione I am fully of opinion that you would not haue your books to be read in such sort as wee do the Prophetes and Apostles of whose writinges to doubt whether they be free from all errour is wickednesse Be this far from godly humilitie and the true perswasion of your selfe So that set the Apostles aside and their writinges no man ought to thinke of himselfe that hee can not erre neither can you haue that opinion of any man without a proude false perswasion aboue mans state and against Gods truth Phi. What shall wee then saie to the promise which our Lorde made to his When hee the spirite of trueth commeth hee shall teach you all trueth Theo. If it bee referred to the Apostles then present with him as the wordes next before doe specifie I haue yet many things to saie vnto you but you can not beare them nowe wee graunt those witnesses chosen by Christ to teach all Nations were to bee furnished with all trueth and to bee established in the same but if it bee extended to all the faithfull they also shall bee ledde into all trueth needefull and requisite to saluation I meane the substantiall groundes of faith though in some questions of Religion happilie they shall not all bee like minded Phi. And what for the Churche shall shee haue no parte in this promise Theoph. If the faythfull haue the Church which is the number and collection of the faythfull must needes haue But that the
greatest Councel that euer was was called by him the determination of those fathers lawfully confirmed beseeching the Emperour with teares to imitate his Father Constans vpon the hearing of these thinges presently writeth to his brother and warneth him to keepe inuiolably the inheritance of his fathers faith Constantius moued with thâ—se letters appointed a Councel to be held at Sardica and willed the Bishops as wel of the East as the west to be their present After this Councel had likewise concluded for Paulus and Athanasius against their deposers Constans wrate to his brother the resolution of the Synode and exhorted him to restore them to their places which when Constantius delayed and differred the West Emperour offereth him this choyse either to restore them their Churches or if he woulde not to looke for hostilitie and warre Wherupon the East Emperour being driuen to this streit sent for Athanasius and his fellowes by three seuerall letters and not only restored them but abolished all things that might any way be preiudiciall to them By this you see Iulius had no power to cal a general Councel but Athanasius was fayne to begge it of the Prince with teares and the Bishoppe of Rome was not then taken for the last and supreme Iudge on earth But the Councel sate in Iudgement after him where matters were ended by number of voyces Phi. Yet we saide trueth that Athanasius called for ayde of Iulius Theo. I said as truely that you florish with generalities and ambiguities conclude nothing For what haue you gotten nowe more than we graunted at first or which way doth this example perteyne to that which is in question betwixt vs Phi. You make too light of our proofes Theo. Then put you more weight to them I take them as I find them and for ought that I see you can not mend them Phi. Well esteeme them as you lift they proue that the Bishop of Rome was euer a sure refuge for the Catholiques against heretikes which he neuer perfourmed more worthily than in our dayes Theo. I thinke in deede Rome was neuer fuller of deuises and practises than at this present Antichrist is so carefull for his kingdome lest it fall that hee spareth neither men nor money to be reuenged on those that shrinke from him but when all is done God will strike the stroke Phi. No doubt he will but neuer for you that bee so shamefully fallen from his Church Theo. You be more shamefully fallen from his word consequently from faith which is the foundation of the Church neither can he be ioyned to the Church which is seuered from the Gospel But we go from the matter your examples bee not yet all discussed Phi. Returne when you will Theo. Chrysostome and Augustine you say asked ayde of Innocentius Phi. They did so Theo. Ayde they might aske and he might yeeld and yet neither make for your purpose Phi. That were maruaile Theo. None at all Chrysostome whom you first name sought for helpe as Athanasius did but the displeasure which Arcadius the East Emperour had conceiued against him was so great that Innocentius coulde not preuaile Phi. It serueth our turnes that Chrysostome did seeke to the Bishop of Rome notwithstanding Arcadius by force did ouerbeare him Theo. Chrysostome sought nothing but that his cause might bee heard in a full Synode before indifferent Iudges Phi. It maketh much for Innocentius supremacie that Chrysostome sought this at his handes Theo. You must make your foundation surer before your building will stand You sawe by the last example of Athanasius that the Bishop of Rome and the west Church might reiect refuse the sentence of any Prouinciall Synode giuen against the Patriarke vnlesse their consents were first had And euen the very same doeth Chrysostome request of Innocentius that he would neither admit nor allowe the proceedings of his aduersaries against him as good nor communicate with him that was chosen by them to succeede in his place Phi. This still confirmeth that nothing was good if the Bishop of Rome did dissent Theo. And still that inferreth nothing but yâ— the Bishop of Rome and his Prouince were a part of the Church and by reason and equitie were to giue their voyces as wel as others before the rest might conclude any thing that did concerne or should bynde the whole Church And this is strange that where the Bishoppe of Rome for himselfe and his Prouince seeketh en equalitie with others as a part of the Church you frame him alone a superioritie ouer all others as the heade of the Church Your examples shewe this that others without him could not bind the whole Church because the conseÌ„t was not general your conclusion must be this that he without all others as Christes UicegereÌ„t in earth might dispose the whole Church at his pleasure See you no differeÌ„ce betwixt these two positions Phi. I confesse they differ but can you shew that others withstoode him as well as he withstood them Theo. Yea that I can Phi. Arians perhaps or Donatists Theo. Nay Catholike fathers Councels Phi. Shew that and you say somewhat to the matter Theo. That I will shew when your proofes are ended I thinke not good to mingle yours and ours together Phi. Ours I graunt are much after one sort and therefore I long to heare yours Theo. No hast but good anon you shall you would faine I see ridde your hands Phi. You shall well know the contrarie Say what you can Theo. I say nothing but that you gaine litle by Chrysostoms example Phi. Doe we not These be Chrysostomes wordes to Innocentius Wherefore least this confusion inuade euery nation vnder Heauen I beseech you write that these vniust proceedings both in our absence and when wee refused not iudgement may be of no force as in deed of themselues they are not and let them which haue doone this wrong feele the censure of the ecclesiasticall Lawes and suffer vs that were neither conuicted nor charged with any crime nor so much as conuented to enioy your letters of communion and charitie and likewise of all others whose fellowship wee had before Doeth he not in these wordes request Innocentius to pronounce the sentence voyd that was giuen against him to remoue the authors of this disorder from the communion Theo. To Dissent from it was enough to vndoe it because neither he nor his prouince were acquainted with it to excommunicate the doers was nothing els but to communicate no longer with them which euery Bishop and prouince might do when any wilful breach of the Canons was offered Phi. This petition was made to Innocentius alone and not to the residue of the West Bishops Theo. If Innocentius alone were spoken to the matter is not great Sure it is the Bishop of Rome neither did nor might deale in these cases without the consent of his brethren for feare least when the matter came to voyces as in the end it
who can blame Hierom if he were loth to lose the communion of that Citie where hee was Christened And as Hierom here honoreth the Church of Rome for keeping her faith so elsewere he taketh vp roundly both the Citie and Clergie of Rome when occasion was offered And in this verie place by your leaue he protesteth that he followeth no man as chiefe much lesse as head of the Church but onely Christ. Ego nullum primum nisi Christum sequens beatitudini tuae id est cathedrae Petri communione consocior I following none chiefe but Christ hold the fellowship of communion with your blessednesse that is with Peters chaire Neither doth hee pray the Bishop of Rome to appoint him what he shall beleeue touching the Trinitie as if Damasus word were the rule of his faith but where he confessed in the Trinitie three persons subsisting of one and the same substance with the Councell of Nice and the whole West Church and certaine Bishops of the East not therwith content vrged him precisely to graunt the worde tres hypostases and for sticking at it traduced him as an heretike his request to the Bishop of Rome is vt siue dicendarum siue tacendarum hypostaseon detar autoritas that he might be licenced to vse or refuse that word without being molested at their hands any farther When we aske them saith Hierom what they meane by tres hypostases they say three persons subsisting we aunswere that wee beleeue the same Non sufficit sensus ipsum nomen efflagitant quia vocabula non ediscimus haeretici iudicamur It is not enough to beleeue so they vrge the very word it selfe and because we can not frame our selues to these new wordes wee bee charged with heresie So that Hierom craued Damasus letters and authoritie for his quietnesse least hee should bee troubled in Syria where he lay among strangers for a word that he suspected to be skant sounde The other petition that he maketh is but to know which of those three at Antioch were ioyned in communion with the Church of Rome and the West Bishops that he might safely communicate with that side Graunt these two cases wherein Hierom prayeth helpe of Damasus and what are you the neerer Phi. Nay graunt the wordes that Hierom speaketh in his Epistle and see what then will follow Theo. What wordes Phi. Cathedrae Petri communione consocior super illam Petram edificatam Ecclesiam scio Quicunque extra hanc domum agnum comederit prophanus est Si quis in Arca Noe non fuerit peribit regnante diluuio I hold the communion of Peters chaire that is of the Church of Rome vpon that rocke I know the Church to be built Whosoeuer shall eat the Paschall lambe out of that house is a prophane person If any man be not in Noahs Arke when the flood riseth he shal be drowned This is as much as we do affirme or could desire for the Church of Rome graunt this and the quarrell betwixt vs shall soone cease Theo. You be so hastie when you heare of Peters chayre that you neuer looke at Christ himselfe though hee stande in your way For Hierom in the same sentence protesteth that although he keepe the fellowship of communion with Peters chaire yet he followeth none chiefe but Christ. Vpon that rocke I am sure saith he the Church is built Why may not these words now be referred as well to Christ as to Peter Phi. For shame what an euasion this is Theo. Nay shame to your selues that are so wedded to your own conceits The words are more likely to belong to Christ than to Peter if you soberly view them Christs name going first and Peters second in the sentence by the very rules of Grammer super illam Petram vpon that rocke serueth more aptly for Christ than for Peter Againe the vehemencie of the verbe scio I am right sure doth argue the wordes to be more fitly referred to Christ than to Peter For that the Church is built on Christ no Christian euer doubted but that Peter is the Rocke on which the Church is built S. Austen and others do plainly denie Phi. But S. Hierom in the third Epistle before this saith expresly Petrus super quem Dominus fundauit Ecclesiam Peter on whome our Lorde built his Church Theo. The wordes of our Sauiour in the Gospell Vpon this rocke will I build my Church diuerse men haue diuersly taken S. Austen expoundeth them thus Tu es ergo inquit Petrus super hanc Petram quam confessus es super hanc Petram quam cognouisti dicens tu es filius Dei viui edificabo Ecclesiam meam id est super meipsum filium Dei vini edificabo Ecclesiam meam Super me edificabo te non me super te Thou art Peter saith Christ and vppon this rocke which thou hast confessed vppon this rocke which thou hast acknowledged by saying Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God will I build my Church that is vpon my selfe the Sonne of the liuing God will I build my Church I will builde thee vpon mee not my selfe on thee Hilarie likewise Vnum est immobile fundamentum vna haec est faelix fidei Petra Petriore confessa tu es filius Dei viui super hanc igitur confessionis Petram Ecclesiae edificatio est Haec fides Ecclesiae fundamentum est This only is the immoueable foundation this onely is the happie rocke of faith which was confessed by Peters mouth thou art the Sonne of the liuing God Then vpon this rocke of confession standeth the building of the Church This faith is the foundation of the Church So doth Ambrose Dominus dicit ad Petrum super istam Petram edificabo Ecclesiam meam hoc est in hac Catholicae fidei confessione Eides ergo est Ecclesiae fundamentum Non enim de carne Petri sed de fide dictum est qùia portae mortis ei nòn praeualebunt Sed confessio vicit infernum The Lord saith to Peter vpon this rocke will I builde my Church that is in this confession of the Catholike Faith Faith therefore is the foundation of the church For it was not spoken of Peters flesh but of faith that hell gates should not preuaile against it But that confession conquered hell Vpon this rocke will I builde my Church that is saith Chrysostom vppon this faith and confession Bede Vppon this rocke saith Christ which thou hast confessed will I build my church That rocke was Christ vpon the which foundation euen Peter him selfe was to be builded These meane as S. Paul doth that the right and true foundatiō of the Church is Christ and none else An other foundation can no man lay than that which is already laid which is Iesus Christ. Others I knowe applie these wordes vppon this rocke will I builde my Church to Peter mary not as if hee alone were laide in the
foundation of the Church and the rest of the Apostles excluded but that which is here spoken to him they make common to all or as much elsewhere to be giuen to all Origen If onely vpon Peter thou thinkest the whole Church to be built what wilt thou say to Iohn and euery of the Apostles shall we dare say that against Peter onely the gates of hell shall not preuaile and against the rest of the Apostles they shall and not rather in them all and euerie one of them that to be true which is saide the gates of hell shall not preuaile and that also vpon this rocke will I build my Church For if this speech to thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdom of heauen be common to all why then should not all that which goeth before and followeth after as spoken to Peter be common to them all Hierom himselfe whose authoritie you pretend as he placeth Peter in the foundation of the Church so doth he the rest of the Apostles likewise Thou wilt say the Church is built on Peter notwithstanding the selfe same in another place is done vpon all the Apostles and they all receiue the keyes of the kingdom of heauen and the stedfastnesse of the Church is equally setled vpon them This sense doth somewhat agree with that place of S. Paul were he saith Ye bee built vpon the foundation not of Peter alone but of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ being the head corner stone And in that respect Paul saith of Iames Peter Iohn iointly they that seemed to be the pillours gaue me their right handes of fellowship Both these constructions we can admit though we prefer the first as most religious cunning nearest the true meaning of our Sauiour but you wrest the wordes of S. Hierom quite against him selfe all the rest of the learned Catholike fathers It is one thing to say the church is built on Peter which Origē Hierom others affirme in the sense that I told you before an other thing to say the Church is built on Peters chaire at Rome which no Father euer said or thought And therefore if we shoulde graunt that S. Hierom in these wordes spake of Peter what are you the better This is no proofe that Rome is the Rocke on which the Church is built but onely that Peter is a Rocke laide in the foundation of the Church where also the rest of the Prophetes and Apostles are Phi. The place doth mention the chaire of Peter which is Rome Theo. The wordes stande so that they may respect either Peter himselfe or his chayre but the likenesse of the names Petrus and Petra both for sound for sense the alluding to that which Christ spake to Peter in the Gospell long before hee knewe Rome the generall consent of the Fathers expounding the Rocke to be taken either for Christ or for Peter and neuer for Rome import that these words in S. Hierom haue their relation to Peters person and not to his chaire This exposition the place which you brought confirmeth Petrus super quem Dominus fundanit Ecclesiam Peter on whom that is on whose person not on whose successors at Rome the Lord built his Church Phi. The rest of S. Hieroms wordes can not be referred to Peters person as namely these that next insue Without this house whosoeuer shall eate the Paschall Lambe is prophane And why shoulde the former more than these Theo. Peruse the words as they lie and you shall finde your owne error Vpon that rocke I know the Church is built The Church not of Rome only but of Christ generally Then followeth extra hanc domùm without this house What house but the church which he said before was built on the rock And out of this house meaning thereby not the particular Church of Rome but the Catholike church of Christ whosoeuer eateth the Passouer is indeed as Hierom saith aprophane person This is farre wide from the mark which you shoote at Phi. S. Augustine I trust shooteth streight when he applieth the wordes of Christ in the 16. of Matthew to the chaire of Peter Theo. That were maruaile if he which by no meanes would allow Peter him selfe to be the foundation of the Church be now content to yeelde that honor to the Bishop of Rome Phi. He doth so These be his wordes Numerate sacerdotes vel ab ipsa Petri sede in ordine illo Patrum quis cui successit videte Ipsa est Petra quam non vincant superbae inferorum portae Number the Priestes euen from Peters seate and see who succeded one an other in that rew of Fathers that is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell do not conquere Theo. This place proueth nothing vnlesse you bee suffered to referre the words Ipsa est Petra that is the rocke whither you list You can not refer them but either to the succession of Priests from Peter or else to Peters seate which is all one with Peters chaire Theo. Why not to Peter himself Phi. That were farre fet Theo. The wordes stand indifferent for both as S. Hieroms did and not onely the same reasons I made there serue here but also the proposition hath a manifest reference to Peters person He saith not number the Priests in Peters seat but number them vel ab ipsa Petri sede euen from the very seat of Peter that is from the time that Peter sate He is the Rock against which the proud gates of hell do not preuaile Phi. You seeme to reade Ipse est Petra He is the Rocke but the wordes are Ipsa est Petra that is the Rocke Theo. There are greater corruptions crept into S. Austens works by the negligence of Scribes than of a for e Neither did I translate the words but giue you the right meaning of them and yet ipsa est Petra in S. Austen may be referred to Peter him selfe as wel as super hanc Petram in the Gospell expounded for Peter which you all vphold But graunt which is more than euer you shall iustly conuince that Peters chaire is thereby ment Saint Austen doth not say that is the rocke on which the Church is built but that is the Rocke which the gates of hell do not conquere not promising that Rome still should but witnessing that Rome then did withstand the gates of hell by keeping the faith vndefiled which Peter deliuered Phi. What S. Austen lacketh S. Cyprian supplyeth Qui Cathedram Petri super quam edificata est Ecclesia deserit in Ecclesia se esse confidit He that forsaketh the chayre of Peter on which the Church is built doth he hope himselfe to be in the Church I trust these wordes be plaine enough Theo. The wordes as you set them bee plaine enough but where saith Cyprian so Phi. In his booke De vnitate Ecclesiae Catholicae you call it corruptly De simplicitate Praelatorum Theo.
none that your friends haue made Phi. The Bishops of Africa you know were deceiued in the number of the Nicene Canons Theo. I know they were not but graunt they were this sufficeth me that they resisted three Bishoppes of Rome Sozimus Bonifacius and Coelestinus one after an other both by their decrees and their letters For vpon occasion of Apiarius flight to Rome they decreed that Priests Deacons and other inferiour clerks if they complayned of the iudgements of their Dioecesanes should be heard by the Bishoppes adioyning Quod si ab eis prouocandum putauerint non prouocent nisi ad Africana Concilia vel ad primates Prouinciarum suarum Ad transimarina autem qui putauerit appellandum a nullo intra Africam ad communionem suscipiatur And if they think good to appeale from them also let them not appeale but to the Coūcels of Africa or the primates of their owne Prouince And hee that ventereth to appeale ouer the Seas to Rome let him be receiued of no man within Africa vnto the cōmunion Phi. This decree barreth Priests inferiour Clerks from appealing to Rome but not Bishops Theo. The Canon was fitted to the matter in question Appiarius that ranne to Rome was a Priest and no Bishop and yet touching appeales of Bishops to Rome what answere they made followeth in their letters first to Bonifacius before they sent for authentike copies to the chiefe places of Christendom to whom they signifie that cōcerning appeales of Bishops to the Priests of Rome they would suffer that to be kept for a while till they could get the Canons of the Nicene Councell after they had receiued the same from Cyrillus and Atticus they framed their answere to Coelestinus on this wise Our dewe salutations remembred and done we entreat earnestly pray you that hereafter you will not lightly giue audience to those that come from hence to you neither any more receiue such to the communion as we excommunicate because your reuerence shall easily perceiue that order taken by the Nicene councel For if there appeare a prouiso for inferior clerks and lay men how much more would the Synode haue the same obserued in Bishops that being excōmunicated in their own Prouince they should not be suddēly hastily or vnduly restored to the cōmuniō by your holines And likewise your holines must repel these wicked refuges of pristes other clergie men to Rome as becōmeth you for that by no determination of the fathers this is derogated frō the church of Africa the Nicene Canons do most euidently cōmit both inferiour Clergie men the Bishops thēselues to their owne Metropolitanes No doubt they most wisely and rightly prouided that al matters should be ended in the places where they first arose neither shall the grace of the holy Ghost be wanting to any Prouince by the which equitie may be grauely weighed and stoutly followed by the Priestes of Christ especially where as euery man hath liberty if he mislike the iudgement of those that heare his cause to appeale to the Councels of his own Prouince or to a general Councel Or how shall the iudgement ouer the Seas at Rome be good whereto the necessarie persons of the witnesses either for sex or for age or sundrie other impedimēts can not be brought For that any shuld be sent as Legats from your holines side we find decreed by no Synod of the fathers That which you sent vs hither by Faustinus as a part of the Nicene Coūcel in the truer copies which we haue receiued from holy Cyril Bishop of Alexandria reuerent Atticus Bishop of Constantinople takē out of the originals thēselues which also we sent to Bonifacius your predecessor In them we say we could find no such thing And as for your agents or messengers send thē not grant thē not at euery mās request lest we seem to bring the smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ which proposeth the light of simplicitie humilitie to those that desire to see God c. Doth your eye sight serue you Philander to marke in this olde broken matter as you call it howe many wayes the Bishoppes of Africa withstood the Bishop of Rome Appeales to Rome which Sozimus claymed by the Councell of Nice they confute by the same Councell and impugne with other graue pithie reasons Legates a latere which he chalenged they reiect as neuer spoken of in any Councell Running to Rome which you make lawfull they call a wicked refuge and sending of messengers from Rome a smokie pride of the worlde The corrupting the Nicene canons by Sozimus they disproue by copies that were true and authentike and Apiarius whome the Bishoppe of Rome harboured and restored the second time to the communion they vtterly banished from the Church of Christ and not therwith content they set downe a rule that if any Priest afterwarde did appeale to Rome no man in Aphrica should receiue him to the communion What thinke you woulde these men haue done if Sozimus had claimed to be head of the vniuersall Church Uicar generall to Christ supreme and infallible Iudge of all men and matters ecclesiastical and that not by consent of Synodes but by graunt from Christ What could they haue sayde to your vntydie vanities that the Popes seate is the natiue home of all true beleeuers himselfe the rocke of refuge in doubtfull dayes and doctrines and the whole worlde his fold and familie You must frame vs some better answere to this geare than Bonifacius your holy father did I trust in these dayes you dare not say the diuel led S. Augustine al the Bishops of Aphrica to be pragent saucie with Coelestinus as he sayd For if the diuell led them that in defence of themselues their right searched and auouched the true Canons of the Nicene Councell what spirite led Sozimus that began a strange and new clayme and to bolster vp his pride wilfully corrupted the Councell of Nice Phi. He did not corrupt the Councell of Nice but rather their Bishoppes of Aphrica that withstoode him were beguiled in the number of the Nicene Canons Theo. He did corrupt the Councell of Nice and the Bishops that detected his falshood were not beguiled Phi. They had but twentie Canons where the Councell of Nice made threescore and ten as we find in an Epistle written by those of Egypt to Marcus Bishop of Rome for a true extract of seuentie Canons after the Arians had burnt the Authentike copie which Athanasius brought from Nice Theo. You rescue one forgerie with an other When your adherents saw that Sozimus was taken tardie with belying the Nicene Councell to saue his credite they deuised that the councell of Nice should make seuentie Canons though there were neuer seene but twentie And to giue this tale some life they coyned a letter in the name of Athanasius and others to Marcus Bishop of
nominatiue case into the accusatiue and the accusatiue into the nominatiue as also the plurall number into the singular saying quas Apostolica sedes habere for quae Apostolicas sedes habere Thirdly you put in these words of your own heads ab ea alij which are not in S. Augustins text And so where S. Austen saith Among the which those Churches are that deserued to haue the seates of the Apostles and to receiue their letters you say plainly Among which Canonical scriptures those Epistles are which the Apostolike see of Rome hath which others haue deserued to receiue from her I report mee to your owne conscience Philander whether this be not a barbarous kind of corrupting the fathers which is often vsed in your canon law as I could shew but that I should make too long a digression Phi. If it be naught I excuse it not Theo. Come you with an if as though the case were not cleare Phi. A man may be soone ouerseene Theo. These be shrewd ouersights But returne to the matter that was first in hande The Britanes are the last that I named but not the last that resisted the Bishop of Rome whom Augustine the Monke that came from Gregorie coulde by no meanes get to yeeld him any subiectiō though king Edelbert slew twelue hundred of their Monkes in one day for refusing obedience to that Romish Legate Phi. Beda sayth so many were slayne but he sayth not for that cause Theo. Beda confesseth that seuen Bishops of the Britanes plures viri doctissimi and many very learned men vtterly refused Augustine when they met him in a Councell His woordes bee At illa nihil horum se facturos neque illum pro Archiepiscopo habituros esse respondebant Conferentes ad inuicem quia si modo nobis assurgere noluit quanto magis si ei subdi ceperimus iam nos pro nihilo contemnet The Britanes answered they woulde doe none of those thinges which hee required neither would they acknowledge him for their Archbishoppe Casting thus with themselues that if nowe hee will not so much as rise to vs howe litle accompt will hee make of vs if wee become subiect vnto him The auncient Brittish Storie which Galfridus Monemutensis translated writeth thus of them In a part of the Britanes Christianitie yet florished the which beginning in the daies of Eleutherius neuer failed among them After Augustine came he found seuen Bishopriks and an Archbishopricke supplied with yery godly gouernours Abbies a great nūber in which the flock of Christ was kept in good order Besides other Cities in the Citie of Bangor there was a most noble Church of 2100 Monkes all liuing with the labor of their hands Their Abbat was named Dinooch a man marueously well learned Who by diuers arguments made it appeare when Augustine required the Bishops to be subiect to him that they ought him no subiection Edelbert therefore the king of Kent as soone as he saw them refuse to yeeld obedience to Augustine and despise his preaching stirred vp Edelfride and other Princes of the Saxons to gather a great armie and goe to Bangor to destroy Dinooch and his Clergie Who taking the Citie commanded the swordes of his men to be turned first vpon the Monkes so twelue hundred of them the same day decked with Martyrdome entred the kingdome of heauen Lower if I would go examples are infinite where the Bishop of Rome hath beene not only stayed of his course and ouerruled but seuerely repressed and depriued of his Papacie Phi. By some tyrants or schismatiks I warrant you For neuer Catholike Prince or Bishop would offer him that abuse Theo. Fitten not so fast least you recant it with shame Godly Princes and prelats your owne Cardinals and Councels haue without any scruple cited suspended and deposed him which I trust is a plaine kind of resistance Phi. If they did all that which you speake Theo. I speake no more than your owne men doe witnesse The Grecians I will omit that neuer obeyed and long since so detesteth both him and his Church that if at any time the latine Priests had celebrated on their Altars they would not offer on the same except they first washed them as thinking them thereby to be defiled Michael Paleologus their Emperour they reiected from Christian burial for that in a councel at Lyons he professed the Greeke church to be subiect to the Romane See Phi. But after in the Councel of Florence they submitted themselues to the Bishop of Rome as to the true vicar of Christ head of the whole church father teacher of al christiās Theo. When the questiō was first moued thē at Florence their answer was We haue no leaue nor cōmission from the greeke church to speak these things And being vrged the second time responderunt vt pridie they answered as before nolentes vt de alia quaestione praeter illā de spiritus sancti processione in vnionis literis vlla mentio fieret not willing that in the letters of vnion any other matter should be contained besides the proceeding of the holy Ghost And though they were wonne at length to suffer it to passe in the letters of concorde hoping the West Princes vpon that perfect agreement would ayde them against the Turke and two of them were made Cardinals that by their authoritie the Greeke nation might bee kept in obedience Yet the whole Countrie saith Platina non ita multò post in antiquos mores recidit not long after fell to their former bent but I will not vrge the dislike betweene the two Churches The West Church will serue my turne better and stop your mouth sooner in the which we shall finde presidents enowe for this purpose Otho the great called a Councel of Bishoppes in Italie where Iohn the 13. was deposed for his infamous and lewd life the thinges bee so lothsome that I will not name them This fact of the Prince and the Synode the Church sawe suffered and allowed and receiued Leo the eight placed by them in his steede Henry the seconde likewise in a Councell draue Benedict the 9. Syluester the thirde and Gregorie the sixt three most vile monsters to forgoe the Popedome and chose Clemens the second to succeede them About Henry the fourth and Gregorie the seuenth though the stories bee diuided some taking the Princes and some the Popes part yet the Bishoppes of Germanie and Italie from Woormes Mentz and Brixia sent him but homely greetings as Vrspergensis confesseth In the yere of our Lord 1076 saith hee there was kept a Councell at Wormes where king Henry being present almost all the Bishops of Germanie except the Saxons deposed Pope Hildebrand writing him a letter after many crimes recited with this conclusion For so much then as thine entrance into the Popedome is infected with so great periuries and the Church of God dangerously tossed by reason of thy
of both lawes no man gainesaying but all consenting it was concluded that it might bee lawfully canonically done Marke Philander a generall Councell called without a Pope and two Popes deposed in the same for not appearing before the councell al this good lawful by the iudgement of your owne Cardinals diuines and Canonists without contradiction and the Pope himselfe accepting this for a sacred and ecumenicall Councell Phi. I maruaile they went so farre Theo. Neuer maruaile at that The general Councel of Constance which followed fiue yeres after this went a great deale farther For when Iohn the 23 had by his letters called the Councell and sate amongst them in person as president and head of the Councell the first thing they did they began to sift him and notwithstanding he fled and left the Councel without Uicegerent or deputie yet they proceeded and not onely suspended but also depriued him for his notorious Symonie and detestable and vnhonest life and maners And likewise when by no meanes they could get Gregorie the 13 to resigne or appeare before them they condemned him for a schismatike and an heretike incorrigible and cut him off as a withered member And least you shoulde thinke this rashly or lightly done they solemnly decreed that the Pope was subiect to them and bound to obey them could not without their liking dissolue or remoue the councell and to that end they did frustrate and reuerse all that was done or might be done by the Pope present or absent to the preiudice and disturbance of their Synode Can you wish for playner examples that a Councell may proceede without and against the Bishoppe of Rome than these be Phi. I confesse they make me stagger and yet I dare not trust them vnlesse the Church receiue them Theo. And doth your church nowe mislike the proceedings at Constance and Pisa which the church of Rome then and all other nations by the witnes of your nearest frinds approued and followed as right and syncere Phi. I refuse not the Councels Theo. But doth your Church allow them for general Phi. I think she doth Theo. Keepe your thoughts to your self my question is whether your Church accept them or no Phi. Shee doth not reiect them Theo. Answer directly Doth your Church embrace thē or no Phi. Shee doth Theo. You might haue sayd so rather what needed this circumquaque to no purpose Then I inferre the doctrine of your church litle more than eight skore yeres agoe was that a Councell might ouerrule and depose the Pope and the same Councel be called and kept without him if he colluded or refused This is proued as well by the deedes of the councels of Constance Pisa which are alreadie shewed as by their decrees which are extant to this day What was concluded at Pisa by generall assent I sayde before what the Councell of Constance resolued in the like case their words shall declare First this holy Synode of Constance lawfully congregated in the holy Ghost being a general councel and representing the catholike church militant hath power immediate from Christ the which power euery one of what state or dignity soeuer he be yea the Pope himself is bound to obey in those things that concerne the faith general reformatiō of the church of God in the head mēbers Again it declareth that whosoeuer of any cōdition state or dignitie yea though he be Pope shal stubburnly refuse to obey the statutes ordinances precepts which this sacred Synode or any other general coūcel lawfully gathered hath already made or shal hereafter make concerning the premisses or any their appertinents except hee repent hee shal be driuen to condigne satisfaction and dewly punished and if need be other helps and remedies of law and Iustice vsed Item this holy Synode ordereth defineth determineth and declareth that if our sayd Lord the Pope being required for vnities sake by this sacred Councel do refuse to forsake his Popedome or defer the renouncing thereof longer than he should as then so now and as now so then shal be counted by al Christian faithful men to be depriued of his Popedome and al obedience withdrawen from him And not herewith content after they had cited and expected him they proceeded first to his suspention and after to his depriuation in this wise Because it plainly appeareth to vs that our Lord Pope Iohn the 23. from the time that hee was chosen to the Popedome til this present hath il gouerned that office to the publike slaunder of himselfe the Church and with his damnable life filthie manners hath giuen and yet giueth to others an example of loose life and moreouer hath by playne Symonical contracts sold Cathedral churches Monasteries Priories and other Ecclesiastical benifices therefore by this our sentence we pronounce and decree the said Lord Pope Iohn worthie to bee suspended from al administration of the Popedome both spiritual and temporal and wee doe suspend him and by this writing forbid him the execution thereof And we declare that for and vpon the premisses as being notorious we ought mind to proceed to the final reiecting him from the Popedome Wherefore we streitly prohibite you and euery one of you by the tenor of these presents in vertue of your obedience vnder payne to be counted fauourers of this schisme whether you bee kings Cardinals Patriarkes Archbishops bishops or whatsoeuer spiritual or secular persons that you nor any of you directly or indirectly hereafter obey regard or assist the sayd Pope Iohn being iustly suspended by vs from al intermedling with the Popes function c. The very same causes they repeat when they depriue him adding that his departure from the Citie and sacred generall Councell of Constance closely by night at an vnseasonable houre in strange and dissembled apparel was vnlawful and scandalous to the Church the Councel as troubling and hindering the peace and vnion of the Church nourishing an inueterate schisme and swaruing from his vowe promise oth therfore say they the sacred general councel of Constance by this definitiue sentence here cōprised in writing pronounceth adiudgeth and declareth the saide Pope Iohn as vnworthie vnprofitable and hurtful to be remoued depriued and deposed from the Popedome and from al spiritual and temporal administration therof therwithal doth remoue depriue and depose him declaring al christians of what state or degree or condition soeuer they be to stand quiet and discharged from his obedience and the fidelitie and oth which they haue made to him Inhibiting al the faithful of Christ hereafter so much as to call him Pope being now deposed from his office or to cleaue to him or any way to obey him as Pope Phi. You repeate this at large that the simple might see how solemnely the Pope was deposed Theo. I doe in deede and you must thinke they looke for your answere Phi. How hastie you be when you haue a little
Ecclesiasticall Lawes for 800. yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of Religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour Iudge Phi. FIRST then whereas in the Proclamation we be charged to liue contrary to the lawes of God the Realme c. We answere that if the lawes of God the lawes of the Realme did alwaies consent concur in deed as in this clause other cōmon writings speeches proceeding frō autority they be lightly in words couched togither against vs hardly could wee defende our doctrines and doings frō error vnduetifulnes towards our prince But seeing the lawes of kings and Countries are not euer consonant but may be contrary to Gods commandements we may iustly mislike the one without disloyalty to the other When Emperours saith Augustine be in errour they make lawes for their errour against the truth by which iust men are tried crowned for not doing that which they command because God forbiddeth it Theo. That some princes haue made lawes against God his truth is a case so cleare that it needed no proofe as also that wee must rather obey God than men when their lawes do swarue frō his again on the other side that princes haue made lawes for the true seruice worship of God did rightly iudge it to be a part of their charge that all they which resist those lawes shal be grieuously punished at Gods hands though you craftily dissemble you can not deny S. Austen in this very place which you bring for your defence the very next words wil tel you so much Quando autē Imperatores veritatem tenent pro ipsa veritate contra errorē iubent quod quisquis contempserit ipse sibi iudicium acquirit When Emperors hold the truth they cōmand for truth against error which cōmādement whosoeuer despiseth he purchaseth to himselfe iudgement For he shal be punished by mē haue no part with God for not doing that which truth it selfe by the kings hart commanded him These words you did wel to cut off they were enough to mar your market Phi. Not ours The. Wil you thē cōfesse that princes may commād for truth against error that whosoeuer despiseth their commandement in those cases shal incur iudgement So saith S. Austen in plaine wordes Phi. They may commaund mary the Church must appoint them what they shall commaund Theo. What mean you by the Church Phi. What should I meane by the Church but the church Theo You loue to play with wordes Mean you laimen or priests or both Phi. Euer heard you the church taken for laimen The. When S. Paul sent for the elders of Ephesus willed them to take heed to themselues the whole slocke ouer which the holy Ghost had placed them to rule or feed the Church of God what ment hee by the Church the Priestes to whom he spake or the people Phi. There you see the Priestes are to rule the Church Theo. There also you may see the Church is not to rule the Prince Phi. How doth that follow Theo. The Church is there taken for the people which must not rule but obey the Prince Phi. By the Church in my first answere I ment the Priestes and not the people Theo. Can you shew where the Church in all the Scriptures is takē for the Priests without the people Phi. We call them only Churchmen Theo. We respect not your abuse but the right vse of the word The Church is neuer taken in the new nor old Testament for the Priestes alone but generally for the whole congregation of the faithfull And therefore when you say the Prince must be ruled by the Church you dallie with a doubtfull word and put a faire colour vppon a foule cause but you must distinctly tell vs what persons you mean when you say the Church must appoint what the Prince shal command Phi. I meane Churchmen that is Priestes and Bishops Theo. And what if Churchmen do not agree which is truth as in our dayes they do not may Princes make their choyse what Churchmen they will follow Phi. No the chiefe ruler of the Church and head Bishop on earth must appoint them what faith they shall imbrace Theo. That chiefe ruler of the Church you take to be the Pope Phi. We do Theo. We like you well for your plainesse Then Princes may commaund that which the Church you meane Churchmen or if they agree not the chiefe Churchman which is the Pope shall appoint This is your assertion is it not Phi. It is Theo. What you say Princes must do for the Pope we say princes may do for Christ that is they may plant and establish the Christian faith in their Realmes by their Princely power though the Pope say nay This is our doctrine can you reproue it Phi. Who shall be iudge which is the true Christian faith Theo. You slip now to an other question It is one thing who may command for truth another who shal direct vnto truth We say Princes may command for truth punish the refusers this no Bishop may chalenge but onely the Prince that beareth the sworde This is the first part of our question And touching the second which is the safest way for princes to be guided vnto the truth though we differ about the meanes you reseruing it as a speciall priuilege to the Pope we referring it as a common duetie to the Preacher yet this is euident that Princes must be directed vnto truth the same way that al other Christians are to wit by perswasion and not by coaction For no Prelate nor Pope hath authoritie from Christ to compel priuate men much lesse princes to the profession of faith but onely to teach and instruct them These be the two pointes wee stand on disproue them if you can Phi. This is not al. You would haue Our faith and saluation so to hang on the Princes will and Lawes that there could be imagined no neerer waie to religion than to beleeue what our temporall Lord and Maister list Theo. It is a cunning when you can not confute your aduersaries at least to beelie them that you may seeme to say somewhat against them In deede your fourth chapter is wholie spent in refelling this position which we detest more than you Phi. You begin to shrinke from your former teaching Theo. You will neuer shrink frō your former facing Did euer any man on our side affirm the princes will to be the rule of faith Haue we not earnestly written and openly taught that Religion must not depend vpon the pleasures of men Haue not thowsandes of vs here in England and elsewhere giuen our liues for the witnesse and confession of Gods truth against princes lawes and Popes decrees In Spaine Fraunce Italie
betweene two Metropolitanes and that the confirming of Bishops be not long differed neither any Bishop remoue from his diocesse without the decree of other Bishops That no lay man presume to place or displace Clerks but by the Bishops Consent That excommunications be not ouer rife and for trifeling causes That euery Church haue a Priest as soone as the Bishop can prouide Item the Bishop shal looke that the Church of God haue due honor no secular busines nor vaine iangling shal be suffered in the Church because the howse of God is the howse of praier but that al men haue their mindes attentiuely bent to God when they come to masse and not depart before the Priest haue ended his blessing Because Canonicall profession partly for ignorance partly for sloth was very much defaced we tooke paines at our sacred session to gather as it were certaine sweet flowers out of the monuments of blessed writers and proportion a rule both for women and men of Canonicall conuersation which the whole assemblie so well liked of that they thought it worthie to bee kept without alteration and therefore wee decree that all of that sort hold it without failing and in any case hereafter obserue the same How we haue disposed touching Monckes and giuen them leaue to chose an Abbat of themselues and ordered their purpose of life wee haue caused to be drawen in an other schedule and confirmed it that it might stand good and inuiolable with the Princes our successors Prouided always that laymen be neither ouerseers of Moncks nor Archdeacons We heare say that certaine Abbesses against the manner of the Church of God giue blessing with laieng their hands and making the signe of the Crosse on the heads of men Know you sacred fathers that this must be vtterly forbidden in your diocesse Wee haue a precept in Deuteronomie No man shall consult a southsaier obserue dreames or respect diuinations there shal bee no sorcerer no inchaunter no coniurer Therefore wee commaund that none calculate practise charmes or take vppon them to Prophesie what weather shall come but wheresoeuer such bee founde either to bee refourmed or condemned Likewise for trees rockes springs where some fooles make their obseruations wee giue straite charge that this wicked vse detected of GOD be banished euerie where and destroyed Of mariage your demaund whether a man may take to wife a mayde that is espoused to an other In any case we forbid it because that blessing which the Priest giueth her that is betrothed is to the faithful in manner of a sacrilege if it any way be violated THAT our visitours looke diligently in euery Citie Monasterie and Nunrie howe the buildinges and ornaments of the Church bee kept and make diligent inquirie for the conuersation of all persons there and howe that which wee commaunded is refourmed in their reading singing and other disciplines pertayning to the rules of eccelsiasticall order Certaine Chapters as of incestuous mariages Churches that lacke their right honour or haue beene lately spoyled and if there bee any other ecclesiasticall or common wealth matters worthie to bee redressed which for shortnes of tyme wee coulde not nowe finish wee thinke good to differre them vntill by Gods helpe and the aduise of our faythfull Counsellers oportunitie serue vs to determine the same There bee sixe score chapters besides these recorded by the same writer of the lawes that Charles made touching ecclesiasticall Persons and causes which I for breuitie sake omitte leauing you to consider of them when you see your time Charles by these publike lawes appointed what doctrine should be preached what abuses in the Lords supper amended what parts of diuine seruice pronounced by the Priest and people together with one voyce what bookes should bee read in the Church what holy dayes obserued what memories of Saints abolished what woorkes on Sonday prohibited hee prescribed the Bishops their dueties the Priestes their charge the Monkes their rules hee directed thee keeping of Synodes electing and translating of Bishoppes ordering and placing of Clerkes paying and employing of Tythes decided what shoulde become of their mariages that were taken away by force or affianced before to others forbad the burying of dead corses in the Church banished Sorcerie Simonie Usurie Periurie last of all vndertooke that if any thing were wanting which needed reformation in causes ecclesiasticall it shoulde bee supplyed of him at his leasure If Charles had the regiment of monasticall profession episcopall iurisdiction canonicall conuersation if hee did I say medle with redressing errors in fayth abuses in sacramentes disorders in diuine seruice superstition in funerals othes charmes and such other matters as by the purport of these chapters it is euident he did what causes can you deuise more spirituall than these Will you permitte these thinges of most importance to the Princes power and except other of lesse moment That were notorious follie You must either inuest them with all or exclude them first from the weightiest For if they be gouernours of the greatest ecclesiasticall affayres much more doth their authoritie stretch to the smalest Againe these Lawes of Charles which amount to the number of eight skore and three what do they lacke of a full direction for all matters needing reformation in the Church of God Any thing or nothing If nothing then this prince gouerned ordered al ecclesiasticall causes If any thing that Charles him selfe assureth vs he would determine when occasion serued Choose whether you wil Charles either way shewed the lawful power of Princes to direct establish all thinges requisite to the faith and Church of Christ. For what hee promised aduisedly to doe no doubt hee ment it shoulde and thought it might bee iustly perfourmed So did Ludouike his sonne and Lotharius his nephew the next Emperours after him whose proceedings declare what account they made of these chapters and with what diligence they put them in executiō The monuments of so good Princes I may not ouerslip with silence their deeds did then profit the Church of God their wordes will nowe profite vs. Thus did Ludouike and Lotharius his sonne write to the Bishoppes and magistrates of their Empire You haue all I doubt not either seene or heard that our father and our progenitors after they were chosen by God to this place MADE THIS THEIR PRINCIPAL STVDIE howe the honour of Gods holy Church and the state of their kingdome might bee decently kept and wee for our part following their example since it hath pleased God to appoint vs that we should haue the care of his holy church and this Realme are very desirous so long as wee liue to labour earnestly for three speciall points I meane to defende exalt and honour Gods holy Church and his ministers in such sort as is fit to preserue peace and do iustice among the people AND THOVGH THE CHIEFE OF THIS MINISTERIE CONSIST IN OVR PERSON
your holy father hath taught kings Emperours to waite on his trencher to hold his stirrop and kisse his feete Phi. We would haue Princes to serue that is to obey the church so S. Paul willeth them Obey your rulers be subiect to them for they watch as being to giue accōpt for your souls This is spoken as well to Princes as to priuate men Theo. You leape from one thing to an other neuer resolue certainly any thing Can you shew where S. Paul or Esaie or any other Prophet or Apostle teacheth Princes to be the Popes Bedels Bailifs to execute his pleasure The questiō betwixt vs is not whether princes as wel as others must be guided directed by religious godly Pastours the way to eternall life which is S. Pauls meaning in this place but whether the Pope cloathing himselfe with the name of the church may command the swords of Princes if he like not their doings take their kingdoms frō thē Do the places which you bring proue this that I mention say yea or no. Phi. Not expressely but only because the Pope is Christs Uicar on earth head of the church Theo. Will you neuer vnderstand how weake your proofes how wide they be from your intention First you stil presume we stil deny that your holy father is the head of the church and Christs Uicar general vpon the face of the earth On that false foūdatiō what God promiseth to the church in respect of her head which is Christ you closely conuey to the Bishop of Rome as heire apparant to that honor and excellency which Christ hath in his church a friuolous but a blasphemous imagination Next what submission obedience God requireth at al mens euen at Princes hands for the reuerencing of his word obseruing of his law that you wittingly confound with the temporall iurisdiction dominion that the church of Rome claimeth ouer Princes to command their scepters if they resist to depose their persons which is a wicked wilfull error If you loue truth deale plainly let this cunning go Phi. I seeke for truth let truth preuaile Theo. Would God you were so minded Phi. I am Theo. That shall wee see by your proceeding Phi. What say you by the wordes of S. Paul Obey your rulers Theo I say the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth leaders as well as rulers in this place standeth rather for leaders than rulers because S. Paul in this very chap. vsing the same worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remember your leaders addeth Beholding the end of their conuersation imitate their faith that is followe their steppes If wee must marke them and imitate them then surely must they be leaders to direct vs and not rulers to master vs. Secondly by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whether it be leaders or rulers are ment not the Pope and his Cardinals but all that be christian and godly Preachers this is S. Pauls own construction Remember your leaders which haue spoken to you the word of God We be not bound to their fansies or pleasures but only to the word of truth proceeding from their mouthes Lastly obedience here required is no corporal subiection to their persons but an inward liking and imbracing of their doctrine For as touching their persons whom it pleaseth you to call rulers in this place S. Paul maketh seruāts in other places We preach not our selues saith he but Christ Iesus to be the Lord our selues your seruants And againe Not that we haue dominion or rule ouer your faith but wee are helpers of your ioy And that was our Sauiours charge to them al. Kings of nations rule with you it shal not be so but whosoeuer wil be chiefe among you shal be the seruant of all Their function is as you see TO SERVE not to rule their brethren I meane to feede not to master the flock of Christ. Phi. The Apostle saith God hath placed thē To rule the Church Attend to your self to your whole flock ouer which the holy Ghost hath put you to rule the church Theo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not To rule the church but to feed the church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be no rulers but Sheepheards Are you not very desirous of rule when you thus wrest the Scriptures to make your selues rulers Phi. S. Hieroms translation hath Regere ecclesiam to rule the church That we follow The. You follow the old corrupt translatiō where it maketh for you and where you list you leaue it S. Hierom vpon the first chapter to Tite saith In quo posuit vos spiritus sanctus Episcopos pascere ecclesiam Dei not regere And yet regere is to lead guide with counsel as wel as to rule or force with authoritie as you may perceiue by dirigere the compound which is to direct any man what way he shal go what things he shal do what words he shal speake yet these be no rulers nor haue any iudiciall power ouer the parties so directed The english word that you abuse hath the same sense In many matters men are ruled by their friends in sicknes they are ruled by their Physition in traueling they bee ruled by their guides and yet neither friends Physitions nor guides haue any iurisdiction ouer the persons that are ruled by them Why then do you trouble the world with such ambiguities perplexities of words why speake you not distinctly why conclude you not directly The Bishops of Ephesus were set by the holy Ghost to attend their flock feede the church If by this you collect that they were placed by God to teach instruct the faithful how to walke in his waies that we graunt that we know to be most true so long as they do their message from God sincerely without adding altering or diminishing but if by colour of those wordes to rule the church you seeke to giue the Pope iudiciall power to compell and punish Princes as a Superiour iudge which is the point we striue for see what shamefull violence you offerre the Scriptures First you falsifie the Text by putting ruling for feeding the church Next you dawe the word ruling from instructing and exhorting which is Apostolike to commaunding and forcing which our Sauiour forbiddeth all his Disciples thirdly that which was spoken to the Elders of Ephesus and is common to all Pastours you present the Bishop of Rome with as his peculiar charge though hee neither feede nor leade the flocke And so where S. Paul ment the Bishops of Ephesus were set to teach and instruct their brethren you conclude the Pope must ouer-rule Princes and take their crownes from them if they yeelde not the sooner Phi. You mistake me I do not bring these places to that end Theo. To that end you should bring them for that is the doubt betwixt vs that was my demaund I required you to shewe Scripture
Father or Councell for 800. yeares that proueth the Pope superiour to the Prince Bring somwhat to that end or else say you can not and I am answered Phi. I proue the church superior to the Prince which is enough to confute the supreme power that you giue to Princes Theo. And what for the Pope Shall he be superiour to Princes or no Phi. We wil talke of that an other time we be now reasoning of the church which I trust you will grant to be superiour to Princes God saide to the Church The nation and kingdom that will not serue thee shall perish And kinges shall serue thee Theo. This is right the trade of your Apologie to pretende the church and meane the Pope You sawe you were neuer able to proue the Popes vsurped power ouer Princes and therefore you thought it best to put a visarde of the Church vppon the Popes face and to bring him in that sort disguised to the stage to deceiue the simple with the sounde and shewe of the Church And for that cause your fourth chapter neuer nameth the Pope but stil vrgeth The regiment of the church The iudgement of the church The churches tribunall conuerted kingdomes must serue the church and euerie where the church the church and when the Church is confessed to bee superiour to Princes you set vppe the Pope as heade of the Church to take from her all the superioritie power and authoritie which before you claymed for her and so you make the Church but a cloke-bagge to carrie the Popes titles after him but staie your wisedomes the Church may bee superiour and yet the Pope subiect to Princes Kinges may serue the Church and yet commaund your holie father and his gymmoes the parish Priestes of Rome for their turning winding euery way iustly called Cardinals Phi. Can Princes bee supreme and the church their superiour Theo. Why not Phi. If any thing bee superiour Princes bee not supreme Theo. That I denie The Scriptures bee superiour to Princes and yet they supreme the Sacramentes bee likewise aboue them and yet that hindereth not their supremacie Truth Grace Faith Prayer and other Ghostlie vertues bee higher than all earthly states and all this notwithstanding Princes may bee supreme gouernours of their kingdomes and Countries Phi. You cauill nowe you shoulde compare persons with persons and not thinges with persons there may bee thinges aboue Princes and yet they supreme but if anie persons bee superiour then can they not bee supreme Theo. No The Sainctes in heauen and Angels of God bee persons superiour to Princes and yet may Princes bee supreme Phi. Why Theophilus these bee wrangling quiddities for shame leaue them The Sainctes bee superiour in perfection and dignitie but not in externall vocation and authoritie Theo. I like that you saie but if you looke backe you shall see Philander that you giue iudgement against your selfe Phi. Against my selfe Why so Theo. The Church is superiour to Princes for those very respectes which I nowe repeated First because the Saincts in heauen which are part of the church in happines perfection and dignitie bee many degrees aboue worldely states Secondly though the members of the Church bee subiect and obedient to Princes yet the thinges contayned in the Church and bestowed on the Church by God him-selfe I meane the light of his worde the working of his Sacramentes the giftes of his grace and fruites of his spirite bee farre superiour to all Princes Nowe view your consequent The Church in respect of her members in heauen and graces on earth is aboue the Prince ergo the Prince is not supreme but subiect to the Pope This is worse than wrangling You confound things and persons heauen and earth God and man to beare out the Popes pride Phi. You stretch the name of the church whither you list Theo. I may better stretch it to these thinges which I specifie than you restraine it to one onelie man as you doe But why doe I stretch the church farther than I should The Sainctes in heauen bee they not members of the church Phi. They bee membees of the church which is in heauen Theo. And the church in heauen is it an other church from this on earth or the same with it Phi. I thinke it bee the same Theo. You must not goe by thoughtes Sainct Paul saith You are of the same citie with the Sainctes and Ierusalem which is aboue is no straunger to vs but the mother of vs all Cum ipsis Angelis sumus vna ciuitas Dei cuius pars in nobis peregrinatur pars in illis opitulatur Wee saith Austen are one and the same citie of God with the Angels whereof part wandereth on earth in vs part in them assisteth vs. And againe The true Sion and true Ierusalem is euerlasting in heauen which is the mother of vs all She hath begotten vs shee hath nurced vs in part a stranger on earth in a greater part remaining in heauen For the soules of the godly that be dead be not seuered from the church which euen now is the kingdome of Christ. Certaynely Christ hath but one bodie which is his church and of that body since the Sainctes be the greater and worthier part they must bee counted of the same Church with vs. Phi. I stick not at that so much as at the next where you make the word and Sacramentes togither with their effectes and fruites to be parts of the church Theo. I do not say they be members of the Church but thinges required in the church without the which we can neither become nor continue the members of Christ. In a naturall bodie the spirits and faculties be no members yet without them the members haue neither life motion sense nor action So in the mysticall bodie of Christ the members be men but the meanes and helpes to make vs and keepe vs the members of Christ are the word and Sacraments without the which we can neither be planted quickned nor nourished in Christ. For the members be dead if they liue not by faith if they grow not by grace if they cleaue not by loue to their heade and moue at his will by obedience And therefore these thinges though they bee not members yet they bee ioyntes and sinewes vaines and vessels that giue life groeth strength and state to the bodie of Christ which is his church and may iustly bee called the principall powers or partes of his bodie Phi. Powers if you will but not partes Theo. As though the powers of the soule were not partes of the soule Phi. Not properly partes but powers and faculties Theo. What call you partes Phi. Whereof the whole consisteth Theo. And since without these there can be no Church ergo these be partes of the church Phi. You take partes very largely Theo. No larger than I should The foundation of the house is it not a part of the house Phi. Yes a chiefe
part Theo. Faith is the foundation of the church why then should not faith be a part of the church Phi. The Church consisteth of persons not of thinges Men are the church saith S. Augustine Againe The church that is the people of God throughout all nations Theo. I doe not deny the church to bee many times taken for the faithfull on earth but I adde that the graces mysteries and word of God bee contained in the Church and without them the Persons are no Church Our bodies and soules doe not make vs members of Christ but our faith and obedience By Baptisme not by birth doe we Put on Christ and grace not meates establish our heartes They bee the sonnes of God that he led by the spirit of God And if any man haue not the spirit of Christ the same is no member of his Phi. All this is true Theo. The church then consisteth not of men but of faithfull men and they bee the Church not in respect of flesh and blood which came from earth but of trueth and grace which came from heauen Phi. I graunt Theo. Ergo the perfection of Gods giftes the communion of his graces and direction of his word are the verie life and soule of his Church so within the compasse of the church are comprised not onely the persons that bee earthly but also the things that be heauenly whereby God gathereth preserueth and sanctifieth his Church Phi. What doth this helpe you Theo. That when wee saie with S. Ambrose Imperator bonus intra Ecclesiam non supra Ecclesiam est A good Emperour is within the Church not aboue the Church you can conclude nothing out of these words against vs. Phi. Can we not If good Princes bee not aboue the church ergo they be not aboue the prelats pillours of the church Theo. That is no consequent Phi. Why not Theo. By the Church are ment sometimes the places somtimes the persons sometime the things that be cheefely required in the Church Of the place S. Austen saith We cal the Church the temple where the people which are trewly called the Church are conteined that by the name of the Church I meane the people which is conteined we may signifie the place which conteyneth And againe The Church is the place where the Church is assembled for men are the Church The Church as it is taken for persons hath a triple distinction First the Church of glorious and elect Angels and men Ecclesia deorsum ecclesia sursum Ecclesia deorsum in omnibus fidelibus ecclesia sursum in omnibus Angelis There is a Church beneath there is a Church aboue The Church beneath in all the faithfull the Church aboue in all the Angels And againe The right order of confession required that in our creed next to the three persons in Trinity should stand the Church as next to the owner his howse to God his tēple to the builder his citie which must here be taken for the whole not only that part which is a pilgrime on earth but also for that part which abiding in heauen hath euer since it was created cleauen vnto God This part in the holy Angels persisteth in blessednes and helpeth as it ought her other part wandring in earth The temple of God therfore is the holy Church I mean the vniuersall in heauen and earth Secondly the Church is the people of God through out all nations ioyning reckning al the Saints which before his cōming liued in this world The whole Church euerie where diffused is the bodie of Christ and he is the head of it Not only the faithful which are now but also they that were before vs and they that shall be after vs to the end of the world they al pertaine to his bodie The Church is the body of Christ not the church which is here or there but that which is here and euery where throughout the world neither that Church which is at this time but from Abel vnto those which shall hereafter bee borne and beleeue in Christ euen till the end the whole companie of saintes belonging to one Citie which is the bodie of Christ and whereof he is the head Thirdly the Church may bee limited by time and place as the particular Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus and such like Behold saith Austen in the Church there be Churches which be members of that one Church dispersed throughout the world There be many Churches yet one Church and in that sort many that there is but one Somtimes the church importeth besides the persons y◠things in which those persons must communicate before they can be members of the Church as when the church is called the kingdome citie and howse of God whereby wee learne that it is furnished not onely with persons but with all thinges needefull for the seruants citizens and people of God to the conuerting and sauing of their soules In that sense saith S. Paul The kingdome of God is righteousnes peace and ioy in the holy Ghost meaning these be fruits and effects of Gods kingdome which our Sauiour threatned to take from the Iewes The kingdome of God shall bee taken from you and giuen to a nation that shall bring forth the fruites thereof shewing that when the woorde of trueth and seales of grace are taken from vs wee cease to bee the people and Church of God Christ raigneth in his Church by his word and spirit without these men are not the Church An earthly citie must haue vnitie societie regiment sufficiencie for an earthly state the number of men doeth not make a citie if these thinges want Howe much more must the citie of God haue abundance of al thinges profiting to eternall life S. Austen sayth of the house of God which is the Church It is founded by beleeuing erected by hoping perfected by louing noting these three to bee the maine partes in the building of Gods house It is playner than that longer proofe shall neede If wee woulde define the Church wee must comprehend not onely men but other thinges also which may seuer the Church from those that are not the Church and those thinges that are required to the explication are wee say contained in the appellation of the Church The Church is not simply a number of men for Infidels heretikes and hypocrites are not the Church but of men regenerate by the woord and Sacraments truely seruing God according to the Gospell of his sonne and sealed by the spirite of grace against the day of redemption Men thus qualified are the Church and the giftes and graces of GOD that so qualifie them bee not onely the iewels and ornaments wherewith the spouse of Christ is decked but euen the seede and milke whereby like a mother shee conceyueth and nourceth her children The church our mother saith Austen conceiued vs of Christ nourished yea nourisheth vs with the milke of faith Shee conceiueth by the Sacraments
them that were fallen into the same temptatiō with him to conclude a singularitie and superioritie for him ouer his fellow disciples and ouer the whole church besides Phi. By this We learne that it was thought fit in the prouidence of God that he who should be the head of the church shuld haue a special priuilege by Christs praier promise neuer to fayle in faith and that none other either Apostle Bishop or Priest may chalenge any such singular or speciall prerogatiue either of her office or person otherwise than by ioyning with Peter and by holding of him Theo. By this we learne that you abuse both the prouidence of God and the promise of our Sauiour to serue your wicked fansies For Christ did not promise that Peters iudgement shoulde neuer erre but that in this tentation nowe at hande his fayth shall not vtterly fayle Ego pro te oraui ne deficeret fides tua Hoc est ne in fine pereas I haue prayed for thee that thy fayth shall not fayle that is sayth Chrysostome that thou finally perish not And againe Non dixit quippe non negabis sed vt non deficiat fides tua Cura enim ipsius fauore factum est ne omnino Petri fides euanesceret Christ did not say thou shalt not deny me but thy faith shall not wholy fayle For by his care and fauour it came to passe that Peters faith should not vtterly bee extinguished And so Bede Our Sauiour praied for Peter not that hee shoulde not be tempted but that his faith should not fayle that is that after he was fallen by denying him hee might rise againe by repentance to his former state Now frame your reason as in deede you must and marke your illation howe absurd it is I haue prayed for thee that thy fayth shall not vtterly vanish though thou shalt thrise denie mee and shamefully forsweare mee Ergo neither Peter neither his successours can erre in any matter of Religion I aske not what boy but what bedlem would thus dispute Phi. Peter denied not the faith but the person of Christ. Theo. And he that denieth the Person of Christ denieth not a part but the whole faith of Christ. It is a sorer and a more dangerous fal to deny the Lord himselfe than to be deceiued in opinion of faith euen by the very confession of Peter For thus he placeth them in the second Epistle There shal be false teachers amongst you which shall priuily bring in damnable sects yea denying the Lorde that hath bought them Our Sauiour in his admonition to the seuen Churches of Asia sheweth that hee which denyeth his name denyeth his fayth Thou holdest fast my name sayth hee and hast not denyed my fayth Wherefore not to hold fast the name of Christ is to deny the fayth of Christ. And how can you doubt of this since the missing of any point of fayth is but heresie and the denying of Christes name which Peter fell into is Apostasie farre worse than the former See then howe lewdly you peruert the words of our Sauiour Where Peter is forewarned of his fall you make the woordes a warrant that hee shall not fall And where the Lorde promised him repentance you turne the text as if Peter weree free from all such offences Phi. Hee offended but not in fayth Theo. Could he deny Christ and not denie his faith and hope in Christ Or can there bee greater infidelitie than to deny the sonne of God And yet Peter not onely denyed him thrise but with an othe and a curse ratified his deniall Phi. Peter denied that hee knewe him Theo. And hee that knoweth not Christ what fayth or hope hath he in Christ S. Ambrose giuing the cause why Peter did not speake but weepe after his fall sayth Petrus iam non vtitur sermone quo fefellerat quo peccauerat quo fidem amiserat Peter nowe doeth not vse speach by the which hee had lyed by the which he had sinned by the which hee had lost his fayth And againe Fidelior factus est post quam fidem se perdidisse defleuit Peter became more faythfull after hee bewayled the losse of his fayth Phi. The danger sayth S. Leo was common to all the Apostles but our Lorde tooke special care of Peter that the state of al the rest might bee the more sure if the head were inuincible Theo. Leo may be borne with in shewing himselfe somewhat fauourable to Peter the founder of his Church but what reason wee shoulde beare with you when you corrupt and falsifie that which Leo sayth His woordes are Pro fide Petri propriè supplicatur tanquam aliorum status certior sit futurus simens Principis victa non fuerit Prayer is made particularly for Peters fayth as though the state of others woulde bee the surer if the minde of the chiefe were not conquered For aliorum you say all the rest for mens Principis you say the head for victa non fuerit you say were inuincible that is at no time after able to bee conquered These bee your forgeries they bee not Leoes woordes Hee speaketh somewhat partially for Peter but nothing hurtfull vnto vs. That Peter was the chiefe of the Apostles in order in age in zeale in courage and such like vertues and dignities and that the rest are weakened when the chiefe is conquered which is all that Leo sayth we can admit But yet S. Chrysostome by your leaue giueth a truer cause way Christ did mention Peter and not the rest If Satan desired to resist them all why did not Christ pray for all It is euident as I sayd before that to touch him the more deepely and to shewe his fall to bee farre more grieuous than any of the rest Christ turneth his speech to him in particular And so hee sayde before I prayed for thee particularly that thy fayth should not fayle This Christ spake to touch Peter the more vehemently signifying that his fall woulde bee much fouler than the fall of his fellowes and therefore that hee needed the more helpe S. Augustine maketh it a plaine case that in praying for Peter hee prayed for all Quid ambigitur Pro Petro rogabat pro Iacobo Iohanne non rogabat vt ceteros taceam Manifestum est in Petro omnes contineri quia in alio loco dicit Ego pro hijs rogo quos mihi dedisti Pater Why doubt wee of it Did hee pray for Peter and did hee not pray for Iames and Iohn to say nothing of the rest It is manifest that in Peter all are contained because in an other place hee sayth I pray for them whom thou hast giuen mee O father The wordes Pro Iacobo Iohanne non rogabat must bee interrogatiue vnlesse you will haue S. Augustine to contradict that which he goeth about to proue though the Print or the Scribe haue made there two pointes yet your owne
deponitur For heresie the Pope is ipso facto deposed and no inconuenience And to that ende hee alleadgeth Petrus de Palude saying Papa quando labitur in haeresin tunc â—o ipso est praecisus ab Ecclesia desinit esse caput The Pope when hee falleth into an heresie is presently cutte off from the Church and ceaseth to bee the heade of it So Gerson the Chauncellour of Paris Tam Papa quam Episcopus deuiabiles à fide The Pope may swarue from the fayth as well as an other Bishop The generall councell of Basill saith Saepe experti sumus legimus Papam errasse Wee haue often both found out by experience and reade that the Pope hath erred And againe Cum certum sit Papam errare posse For so much as it is certaine the Pope may erre Aeneas Syluius afterwarde Pius the seconde inueying against them that woulde not haue councels gathered without the Popes consent saith What remedie shall there bee if a sinnefull Pope trouble the Church if hee destroie soules if hee peruert the people with his euill example Si denique contraria fidei praedicet haereticisque dogmatibus imbuat subditos If he teach against the faith and infect those that be vnder him with hereticall opinions Cardinall Caietane and Pope Innocentius the fourth though they had good cause to fauour the See of Rome yet were they clearely resolued the Pope might erre and so were all the writers of your owne religion before this our age that euer I hearde of and euen at this day the sincerest of them dislike the vnshamefastnesse of your assertion Papa in fide errare potest vt melius sentientes tenent etiam ex hijs qui Papatui plurimum fauent Inter quos est Innocentius eius nominis quartus Pontifex in cap. 1. De summa Trinitate The Pope may erre in fayth as the truer opinion is euen of them that fauour the popedome verie much Amongest whome is Innocentius the fourth of that name Bishoppe of Rome writing vppon the first chapter De summa Trinitate Arboreus a Doctor of Paris and one of your chiefe Sorbonistes Papa in fide errare Potest Et tota mihi aberrare via videtur qui aliter sentit Assentantur sane Romano Pontifici qui faciunt cum immunem à lapsu haereseos schismatis The Pope may erre in fayth And he seemeth to mee to bee in foule errour that thinketh otherwise Surely they doe but flatter the Bishoppe of Rome that make him free from falling into heresie and schisme Erasmus pithily impugneth your inconsiderate follie If it bee true which some say that the Bishop of Rome can neuer erre iudicially what neede generall councels Why are men skilled in the lawes and learned in diuinitie sent for to councels if hee pronouncing can not erre To what purpose are so many Vniuersities troubled with handling questions of faith when truth may be had from his mouth Nay how commeth it to passe that the decrees of one Pope are repugnaÌ„t to the decrees of an other This perswasion of yours must needes be naught which so many of your owne side haue condemned before our dayes and the sobrest of your selues that haue written since our time doe vtterly disclaime And therefore aduise you whether you will faierly resigne this fansie or be conuinced by the verdict of your fellowes for men-pleasers and flatterers It is farre from a Catholike position which your owne church in the midst of darkenesse would neuer acknowledge and at this daie none defende but such hungrie ghestes as you be that gape for thankes and seeke to please Phi. You falsely charge vs with vnhonest respectes Theo. It is not my iudgement of you but theirs that otherwise haue no cause to thinke euill of you Phi. The reason that moueth vs so to say is for that we finde no Pope that euer erred Theo. You refuse Councels Fathers Stories and all that come in your way because you will not finde it Phi. We refuse not that is ancient or indifferent but onely such as we thinke partiall Theo. Then if there bee no cause why they should be partiall you will admit them for credible Phi. We will Theo. We expect no more What say you then to Clemens the first of that name as you make your account though wee thinke it a leude forgerie in his name Doe not your own Decrees report out of his decretall epistles that amongest christians al things ought to be common euen wiues and all Communis vita omnibus fratres necessaria est Communis enim vsus omnium quae sunt in hoc mundo omnibus esse hominibus debuit In omnibus autem sunt sine dubio coniuges A common life is necessarie for all men brethren the vse of all thinges that are in this world ought to be common to all men And in al things no doubt are wiues contained Phi. He meaneth not the carnall vse of women but their domestical seruice ought to be common Theo. So your gloze would make vp the breach but all in vaine For Socrates in Platoes common wealth whom your Clemens in this place citeth and calleth Graecorum sapientissimum the wisest of the Graecians rehearsing the prouerbe which Clemens here vseth inferreth that the coniunction of men women and procreation of children ought to bee common which is a monstruous and heinous errour And were that excused the the rest is a shamefull absurditie that all other thinges ought of necessitie to bee common amongst christians For the Scriptures do not exact that no maÌ„ should possesse any thing but onely that charitie should gladly distribute supply the wantes of such as neede Phi. Your selfe thinke this to be forged in Clementes name Theo. We do but you do not and therefore against you the instance is good The next is Tertullians testimonie who saith of the Bishop of Rome that he agnised the prophesies of Montanus and sent letters of communion and peace to the churches in Asia and Phrygia that were of that sect Phi. But hee reuoked those letters and ceased from that purpose as Tertullian also confesseth Theo. Hee reuoked them after they were sent and ceased from that which he first acknowledged Episcopum Romanum tunc agnoscentem prophetias Montani ex ea cognitione pacem Ecclesiis Asia Phrygiae inferentem falsa de ipsis prophetis adseuerando coegit literas pacis reuocare tam emissas a proposito recipiendorum schismatum concessare Praxeas the heretike forced the Bishoppe of Rome then agnising the Prophesies of Montanus and vppon good liking of them giuing peace to their Churches in Asia and Phrygia to reuoke his letters of coÌ„munion when they were sent and to cease from his purpose of embracing their doctrine Phi. Tertullian was of that sect himselfe and therefore no indifferent witnes Theo. Indifferent enough to report the fact though not to iudge
mentio habetur In the said declaration of Pope Nicolas there is mention made of renouncing the proprietie only but none other right And so Ius aliud a proprietate habuisse potuerunt they might haue some other right besides the proprietie Phi. So they might Theo. As if Christ and his Apostles had been cunning in the ciuill Lawes to renounce the proprietie for a fashion and yet to reserue an interest in those thinges which they seemed to renounce so that they might both keepe and vse them at their willes This exposition that Christ taught men to renounce the proprietie of their goods and reserue the vse is as false and hereticall as the former assertion of Pope Nicolas that Christ and his Apostles renounced their right in al earthly things both in special and common and taught others to do the like Your gloze tumbleth a long while in the myre after he hath confessed the one to be expresly contrarie to the other at length submitteth himselfe to the Church of Rome though hee see not howe to loose the knot Nicolaus the second in a Councel of 114. Bishoppes appointed Berengarius to confesse that The very body of Christ is in trueth and sensually broken and brused in pieces with the teeth of the faithful this confession the Pope receiued allowed and sent to the Bishoppes of Italie Germanie and Fraunce as catholike which your owne gloze saith is a greater heresie than euer Berengarius held Phi. Hee saith it is vnlesse you vnderstand it soberly Lheo And that sober vnderstanding hee graunteth must bee cleane against the text For where the text affirmeth this of y◠very body of Christ excludeth the outward sacrament as the words declare your gloze sayth that vnlesse you vnderstand this of the outward formes of bread and wine and not of the bodie of Christ it is a greater heresie than that of Berengarius and so is it in deede a very palpable a brutish error and can no way bee salued except you take the woords cleane contrarie to themselues which conuinceth the Pope and his whole Councell of a monsterous error Phi. This was Berengarius fault in his confession but not the Popes iudgement or resolution Theo. You would faine wind out if the text it selfe did not hold you fast but there it is sayde that Pope Nicolas and the Synode deliuered this faith and assured it to be Apostolike and Euangelike And therefore if Berengarius erred in subscribing this fourme of confession the Pope his Councell erred in prescribing the same Phi. You take nice aduantages of words which men may soone misse Theo. The heresie of Arius differed but one letter from the truth and yet his doctrine wa◠very blasphemous One word may containe a whole kingdome of impietie Phi. The best is you find not many such ouersightes in the Popes decrees Theo. You print and publish none but such as you thinke your selues able to defend suppressing the rest that might bee chalenged and then you aske vs howe wee prooue that euer the Bishoppe of Rome gaue definitiue sentence against the fayth in open Court or Councel which refuge of yours is very ridiculous For what hath Christes prayer for Peter to doe with definitiue sentences and open Consistories If the Pope may beleeue defende and preach an error what neede wee care whether his sentence bee conclusiue or perswasiue definitiue or interlocutorie And so for the place what skilleth it where and in whose presence the words be written or spoken if they be certainely his And where you thinke it maketh much for the Bishoppe of Rome that wee can not proue these errors of Popes to haue beene definitiuely pronounced in their publike Consistories if that were true as it is not you shew your selues to be but wranglers For wee can name an infinite number of Bishoppes and Churches that neuer erred in this speciall precise maner which you propose Howe prooue you that euer the Bishops of Yorke or Durham in England of Poycters or Lions in Fraunce of Valeria or Carduba in Spaine of Rauennas or Rhegium in Italie of Corinth or Athens in Greece of Miletus or Sardis in Asia gaue definitiue sentence against the faith in their publike consistories A thousande others I coulde obiect on whom that thing shall neuer bee fastened which you crake can not be proued by the Bishop of Rome Heretikes haue been euer conuinced by their confessions writings not by their definitiue sentences or iudiciall proceedings And therefore if Popes haue erred in writing and teaching they were as right heretikes as euer were Arius Sabellius Nestorius Eutiches and such like which neuer gaue definitiue sentēce against the faith in Courts and Consistories but onely taught or wrate against the truth Phi. Though one or two Bishops of Rome were deceiued they erred not so often there as in other places Theo. Set Constantinople aside and in no one See did the bishops erre oftener than in Rome but this is not our marke If one or two haue erred why may not others Yea though none of them had erred heretofore yet that which is possible may happen hereafter and so long they can be no absolute iudges of trueth Phi. If they might erre they were no fit iudges of faith but because their Tribunall is the highest that is in the Church they must therfore be free from error Theo. You euer proue that which we doubt of by y◠which is more doubtful We denie the Popes Tribunal to bee the highest that is in the church Prouinciall and generall Councels by the Canons are aboue him And in matters of faith the highest Court that is in earth may misse therfore no man is bound to Pastor Prelate or councel farther than their decrees be coherēt agreeable with the faith For against God we owe neither audience nor obedience vnto the perswasions or precepts of any men Phi. No question we must as well in faith as in manners obey rather God than man and therefore if the iudgements of bishops and conclusions of Councels might be repugnant to the word of God duetie bindeth vs to preferre the preceptes of God before the pleasures of men but it is not possible that God should leaue his Church without direction and directed shee can not bee but by iudgement and in giuing iudgement the head must be highest and so the soundest left that peruert the rest and endanger the whole bodie Theo. The church of Christ neuer was nor euer shall bee without direction but that direction proceedeth from the word and spirit of Christ not from the courts and Consistories of Popes Assemblees of learned Bishoppes voyd of pride and strife are good helpes to trie the faith and moderate the discipline of the Church and the greater the better yet the direction of Gods holy Spirite and infallible determination of trueth is not annexed to any certaine places Persons or numbers
conspiracies sought to shake this Emperour out of his cloathes but God so assisted him that he razed and destroyed the cities that rebelled and turned the Duke that betrayed him out of his Dukedome and electorship and made the Pope glad to leaue his Palace and flie to Venice in a cookes attire and had not indulgence of nature wonne him to accept the peace which the Pope offered and his captiue sonne intreated hee was like enough to haue taught the Bishoppe of Rome a newe lesson but the time was then for Antichrist to be exalted and therefore it pleased the wisedome of God to suffer this worthy Prince to be weariâ—d and content to imbrace peace for the safety of his sonne that was prisoner at Venice Where if it be true that is written of Pope Alexander euen by your owne fellowes he shewed himselfe in his right colours For willing the Emperour before all the people to lie flat on the ground he set his foote on the princes necke and said it is written thou shalt walke vpon the aspe and Basiliske tread the Lion and Dragon vnder thy feete And the prince answereth I do it not to thee but to Peter whose successor thou art the pope replied it must be done to me as wel as to Peter The Pope is now where he would be not on meane mens shoulders but on Princes necks and that aduancement hath he gotten not by religion or vertue but by breaking othes bearing armes shedding blood and such like turkish and diuelish stirres Phi. Would you not he should defend himselfe Theo. If hee be Peters successour hee must feede not fight teach obedience not authorize rebellion praie for his enimies not persue them with force and furie Else he succeedeth Romulus in murdering not Peter in feeding Phi. What if wordes will not serue shall the chiefest Pastour of our soules see the keyes and the church contemned and oppressed and not draw the sword Theo. That is in effect if men will not beleeue your Preaching may you not take boytels and knock them on their heades Nay the case goeth not so well with you You wage warres with earthly states if they dislike your pride or auert your gaine you pretende Sainct Peter and the Church when you meane nothing but your temporall commodities and superfluities it suffiseth you not to bee free from Princes Lawes swords or to be their equalles you striue with them to be their superiours to displace theÌ„ if they displease you These be the quarels which your holy father and his adherentes haue professed persued for the space of fiue hundreth yeares with all their might and maine for these things haue you spilt more Christian blood than euer Turke or Tyrant did at this daie you take it in euill gree that you may not still continue that course With Frederik the first you fel out for that hee durst place his owne name before the Popes which all Emperours euer did and as you fought with Henrie the fourth to get clergie mens liuings of his hands so you tumbled with this Frederik to exempt their persons least they should either for commodity or duty leane to the Prince when he beganne but to looke to your fingers that you should not decay his Realme inrich your selues you conceiued such immortal hatred against him that you tooke an othe to reuenge him not onely by conspiration but euen by succession With Frederike the seconde you delt much after the same sort whom you did excommunicate twise thrise foure times for no cause without all order of law iustice as if princes had bin footbals for popes to play with not powers for christian Bishops to reuerence Phi. Was not Frederik the 2. excommunicated for verie good causes Theo. They were very good I promise you Vrspergensis an Abbate then liuing saith of them The pope of very pride the first yeare of his Popedom began to excoÌ„municate Frederik the Emperor for friuolous false pretences without al order of iudgement Phi. But Blondus Platina tel you an other tale Blondus saith The first yeare of his coronation making light account of his oth he atteÌ„pted many enormous things against the Pope who warned him to forebeare these wicked perfidious and rebellious interprises but he euery day more more despised his admonitioÌ„ which made the Pope to terrifie him with an excoÌ„munication if he did not relent make restitutioÌ„ And when the Emperor set light by the first curse the second time the Pope added a depriuation from his Empire crowne third time when the Emperor stood still out the Pope very much offended therat absolued al his subiects from their othes wherby they were bouÌ„d to yeeld him alleageance And so saith Platina Honorius the third did excoÌ„municate depriue Frederik the second for molesting the Popes dominion against right law Theo. Your Italians perceiuing their Popes to haue bin very waspish eger against the Emperors that liked them not knowing what a shame it would be in the eies of al posterity for them to haue proceeded in such rage wtout vrgeÌ„t euident matter in general words do charge those Emperors with many grieuous crimes But we trust neither the Popes discretion nor the reporters construction vnlesse we see the particular facts that were committed They may think those things to be hainous which indeede are friuolous and if the quarell were for lands and territories lying in question betweene the Empire and the See of Rome the Pope did wickedly in his owne cause to abuse the keies for earthly mammon Phi. Who made you the Popes iudge Theo. I iudge him not there is one that shall iudge both him and his actes yet I may ask you the causes for which Frederike was accursed depriued Phi. You haue heard them out of Blondus and Platina Theo. Platina sayth Contra ius fasque ditioneÌ„ Pontificiam vexabat he molested the Popes inheritaunces against all right that Blondus calleth wickednesse rebellion and periurie These bee high wordes but I see no deedes And if we credite them which wrote that verie present when these thinges were doone the Pope did the Emperour open wrong in receiuing and succouring his rebels against him Vrspergensis sayth the first yeare after Frederike was crowned Emperour hee began to warre vppon two Earles of Thuscan Matthew and Thomas which had surprised certaine fortes and peeces of his territorie within Apulia and cleane put them from all they had who flying to Rome sought helpe at the Popes hand whereof the Emperour often complained that the See Apostolike fostered his publike aduersaries and enimies This was the falling out betweene the Prince and the Pope which your Italian Stories do mention Platina sayth it was the Popes right Vrspergensis two hundreth yeares before him and a writer in the midst of these actions saith it was the Princes right and that
she is tried in the fornace cleanest when she is vanned whitest when she is scoured and safest when she is iudged in the world that she be not condemned with the world The Church of Christ hath alwaies prospered in miserie and decaied in prosperitie Israel increased whiles they were oppressed by Pharaoh and when they came to be fed with Manna vnder Moses they were consumed The bloud of the Martyrs is the very nourcerie of the Church and the first poison of Religion was the wealth and pride of Bishops The grace of God is made perfect through weakenesse and when our outward man perisheth our inward is daily renewed Phi. Why rage you thus What haue we said Theo. That which neuer learned or Christian man sayde before you say your saluation is vnsufficient if you may not rebell against Princes when they oppresse you Phi. If there were no way to depriue or restraine Apostata Princes Theo. Then was not the Primatiue Church sufficiently prouided for by the sonne of God for they lacked compotent forces as your selfe did confesse to restraine those heretiks Apostataes and tyrants that afflicted them Then were the Apostles vnfurnished for their saluation for they had nothing besides hope to beare the brunt of those continuall and bloudie persecutions which they suffered Then is God carelesse of his Saincts for so much your religious wordes import since they shall haue none other refuge in all assaults but faith and patience Wo worth your worldly mindes that cannot so much as say with the Apostle whatsoeuer you thinke I take pleasure in infirmities in reproches in necesâ—ities in persecutions in anguish for Christ for when I am weake then am I strong Phi We haue giuen better experience thereof than you we haue these 27. yeres endured al sorts of afflictions calamities that might befal men in exile and therefore neuer charge vs to be worldly minded our long and hard banishment doth clearely quite vs from that slaunder Theo. You haue beene long absent but much against your wils had any of your practises well succeeded you had many yeres since returned with fier and sword but God of his mercie toward this realm hath wearied their heads and filled their hands that should be your leaders and now waxing sharp through impatience much displeased to see your selues so often disappointed you not onely by your booke blowe the trump to rebellion but shew the very ground and persuasion of your hearts to be this that except you may depriue the Prince with dint of swoord God hath not sufficiently prouided for your saluation as though life to come woulde doe you litle good except in the meane time you might abounde and not feele want liue in honour and not thus wander raigne ouer Princes and not obey them or endure them Phi. Wee see howè the whole worlde did runne from Christ after Iulian to plaine Paganisme after Valens to Arianisme after Edward the sixt with vs into Zwinglianisme and would doe into Turcisme if any powerable Prince will lead his subiects that way If our fayth or perdition shoulde on this sort passe by the pleasure of euery secular Prince and no remedie for it in the state of the newe Testament but men must holde and obey him to what infidelitie so euer he fall then wee were in worse case than heathens and all other humane common wealthes which both before Christ and after haue had meanes to deliuer them-selues from such tyrants as were intolerable and euidently pernicious to humane societie and the good of the people for whose peace and preseruation they were created by man or ordayned by God Theo. You finde that multitudes ranne from Christ to Paganisme after Iulian to Arianisme after Valens but doe you finde that the godly did rebell against them because a number ranne after them What presumption is this in you to controle the wisedome and goodnes of God sifting his Church by the rage and furie of wicked Princes and crowning those that bee his as patient in triall and constant in trueth Were you throughly perswaded that the heartes of Kinges are in the handes of GOD and that the haires of our heades are numbred so that no persecution can apprehend his which hee disposeth not toward them for experience of their fayth or recompence of their sinnes you woulde as well honour the iustice of God in erecting tyrants that our vnrighteousnes may bee iudged and punished in this worlde as embrace his mercie in giuing rest to his Church by the fauour of good and vertuous Princes And therefore I appeale to the consciences of all good men whether this reason of yours if there were no way to depriue Princes and to take their Crownes from them wee were in worse case than heathens bee not a prophane despising the Counsell of God towarde his Church and an open betraying of your vnquiet stomackes when you bee in trouble Our Sauiour foreteaching his that they shoulde bee brought before Kinges and Rulers and put to death and hated of all men for his names sake addeth not as you would haue it and hee that first rebelleth but hee that endureth to the end shall bee saued and againe not with violence restraine them but in patience possesse your owne soules This is the way for all Christian subiects to conquerre tyraunts and this is the remedie prouided in the newe Testament against all persecutions not to resist powers which GOD hath ordayned lest wee damned but with all meekenes to suffer that we may bee crowned Phi. The heathens before Christ and after had meanes to deliuer them-selues from such tyrants as were intolerable and euidently pernicious to humane societie and the good of the people for whose peace and preseruation they were created by man or ordayned by God Theo. A meane they had to dispatch such as they counted tyrants and that was to kill them which Christians may not imitate and yet did your Holy Father of late in Cardinall Comos letter promise earthly and heauenly recompence to Parry for offering his seruice to kill her maiestie The letter is extant the purpose confessed the partie executed Looke there you shall see the Bishoppe of Rome and his Cardinals to bee right heathens and to carrie the same myndes that they did if not worse For they knowing no GOD besides the ghesse of their owne heartes and hauing no rule to leade them but onely reason and buylding a felicitie to them-selues in this life sawe no cause why one man shoulde bee suffered to afflict and disease a number and supposing any thing to bee lawfull that relieued the Common wealth they decreed him to bee no murtherer but a delyuerer of his countrie that woulde kill a tyrant You hauing the manifest voyce of GOD thou shalt not kill which you ought to preferre afore your owne lyues and being prohibited by the holy Ghost to doe euill that good may come
We may do better to learne obedience than sawcely to check the magistrate for allotting such penalties as we do not like yet this I wil say there is no conspiracie so pernicious and dangerous to the State as that which is secretly crept into the hart vpon a sense of deuotion and outwardly couered with a shew of religion If therfore the Prince seuerely reuenge both your pretences in opinion practises in execution absurdly grounded on Peters keyes and wickedly deriued thence for the remouing of her crowne defacing of her person and diminishing of her right that rigor may wel be defended as comming from iust and lawfull authoritie not without sufficient and euideâ—t necessitie neither can you bring ought against it but onely that you professe it as a point of your Catholique religion not of any sinister or direct intention to hurt her maiestie or any other Christian Prince which is most friuolous false For the Popes authoritie iurisdiction and power lately claymed by him and vsurped within this Realme and since maintained extolled and defended by you and such your adherents as haue suffered death to prescribe Lawes as hee list to commaund Princes and interdict their Realmes yea to depriue them of their crownes absolue their subiects licence rebellions and dispence with the murdering of heretikes as you call them euen of Princes themselues This authoritie iurisdiction and power we deny to bee any doctrine or doubt of Christian religion or to bee so much as once spoken or thought of I say not by the Scriptures which put no difference betweene the Pope and an other Bishoppe but by any father or Councell for a thousande yeeres in the Church of God It was the meere deuise and drift of Antichrist to make himselfe mightie when it was first attempted by Hildebrand and it is nowe coloured by you with the name of religion because you would poyson the people the sooner with that perswasion haue somewhat to say for your selues when you be charged with rebellion and disobedience to the temporall magistrate Phi. Your owne masters and leaders whom I trust you will not condemne for Traytours haue detested the title of Supreme head of the Church in princes as well as wee the Lutherans flatly controling it in generall and Caluin himselfe with all the Puritants much misliking and reprehending the first grant therof to king Henry Why then put you poore men to death for that which your owne side abhorreth Theo. Your brethren were not put to death for denying her maiestie to bee supreme head of Christes Church in Englande in causes ecclesiasticall though one of them for want of trueth or wit did so report at his end and you for lacke of better proofe haue brought his owne woordes spoken in fauour and excuse of himselfe as some worthie witnes No man is compelled by the lawes of this Realme to confesse any such title in the Prince much lesse punishable by death for denying it and therefore your martyr was a Lyer at the houre of his death and either of malice inuerted or of ignorance misdeemed the cause for which he dyed Phi. It is all one to bee head of the Church and to bee chiefe Gouernour in causes ecclesiasticall Theo. They suffered neither for the one nor for the other but for maintaining and defending the iurisdiction and power of the Bishop of Rome heretofore claymed and vsurped in this Realme which generall includeth all your erroneous and trayterous assertions of the Popes power tending no way to religion but only sauouring of the Popes pride to be ruler and displacer of Princes And therfore either proue that claime to pertaine to faith or leaue your vayne presuming and fond discoursing that a number of your brethren haue beene condemned and executed for meere matter of religion Though you list to take that for spirituall which is temporall and cal it religion which in deede is sedition yet your idle multiplying of words and changing of names doeth not conuince your quarrel to bee righteous or the Lawes of this Land to bee tyrannous Shewe that power iurisdiction and authoritâ—e which your holy father hath heretofore claymed and vsed in this realme to bee consonant to the lawes of God or church of Christ for a thousand yeres and wee will yeeld your friends and familiars haue dyed for religion otherwise you do but face out the matter with fierie words to keepe deceiued and simple sâ—ules from suspecting the secrets of your profession As for supreme head of the church it is certaine that title was first transferred from the Pope to king Henry the eight by the Bishops of yoâ—r side not of ours though the pastors in King Edwards time might not wel dislike much lesse disswade the stile of the crowne by reason the king was vnder yeres and so remained vntil he died yet as soone as it pleased God to place her maiestie in her fathers throne the Nobles preachers perceiuing the words head of the church which is Christs proper and peculiar honour to be offensiue to many that had vehemently refelled the same in the Pope besought her highnesse the meaning of that word which her father had vsed might be expressed in some apter plainer termes and so was the Prince called Supreme gouernour of her Realme that is ruler and bearer of the sworde with lawfull authoritie to command and punish answerably to the word of God in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall And no forraine Prince or prelate to haue any iurisdiction superiority preeminence or authority to establish prohibite correct and chastice with publike lawes or temporall paynes any crimes or causes ecclesiasticall or spirituall within her Realme This Caluin and they of Magdeburge neuer misliked howsoeuer you would seeme to take aduantage of their words Phi. Caluin sayth it is sacrilege and blasphemie Looke you therefore with what consciences you take that othe which your owne master so mightily detesteth Theo. Nay looke you with what faces you alleage Caluin who maketh that stile to be sacrilegious and blasphemous as well in the Pope as in the Prince Reason therefore you receiue or refuse his iudgement in both If it derogate from Christ in the Prince so doeth it in the Pope if it doe not in the Pope as you defend no more doeth it in the Prince Yet we graunt the sense of the word supreme as Caluin conceiued it by Steuen Gardiners answere and behauiour is very blasphemous and iniurious to Christ and his word whether it bee Prince or Pope that so shall vse it For by supreme Caluin vnderstoode a power to do what the Prince woulde in all matters of religion without respect to the will or precepts of God which is a thing most impious Phi. His woordes are They were blasphemers in calling him supreme head of the Church vnder Christ. Theo. They are so but that which goeth before
purpose Phi. Many you know report for vs that Charles and his councell condemned the breakers of images and a number of your owne side confesse the same Theo. In stories we must not respect the number vehemencie but the antiquitie and sinceritie of the authors Two hundreth that liued long after were not acquainted with the deedes themselues can not counteruaile two that liued in the same age and had the full perusing of their actes Againe your later writers were all addicted to images and therefore they would not acknowlege that euer the councell of Franckford condemned the councell of Nice for adoring images Lastly it is not altogether a lie when they say the councell of Franckford refused the councell of Constantinople For where the councell of Constantinople said it was idolatrie to haue them and the councell of Nice defined it lawfull to worship them the councell of Franckford as Hincmarus confesseth liked neither but held it a thing indifferent to haue them adiudged it a meere impiety to worship them Phi Then hauing of images you graunt was catholike though the worshipping of them in some places were not so taken Theo. The hauing of images was neuer catholike and the worshipping of them was euer wicked by the iudgement of Christes church Phi. At this time the West church did not gainesay the hauing of them Theo. The West church at this time vsed them only as ornamentes and monumentes for the ruder sort to learne the liues and deathes of ancient vndoubted Martyrs but if you forget not your selfe you bee 800. yeres too short of catholik euen then by the churches of EnglaÌ„d France Spaine and Germanie was the worshipping of images detested and refuted as contrary to the christian faith Phi. By worshipping and adoring of images we doe not meane that godly honor should be giuen to them but only a kinde of external dutie reuerence with the gesture of the body as kneeling kissing censing religious holding vp of eyes and handes before them with such like signes of outwarde submission Theo. Neither do I thinke that Adrian the Bishop of Rome or the Grecians were so blasâ—hemous brutish idolaters that they decreed diuine honor to dead sensles stocks though your SchoolemeÌ„ not long before our age came to that grosse â—ilâ—hy doctrine salued it with a vaine translatioÌ„ of the honor that was done to the image as passing from the image to the principall it selfe represented by the image But the Grecians I thinke ment an externall regard reuerence such as is giuen to the sacred vessels bookes elementes that are vsed in baptisme at the Lords Supper For those be their owne comparisons though their words be adoration veneration yet that externall corporall honor giuen to images the West Bishops abhorred as neither catholike nor christiaÌ„ and the church of Christ long before them condemned as hereticall Gregory the first 200. yeares before Charles called the councel of FraÌ„ckford thought it not amisse to haue painted histories suffred in the church but in no wise the pictures to be worshipped Your brotherhood saith he to Serenus Bishop of Massilia seeing certaine worshippers of images brake the said images and cast theÌ„ out of the church The zeale which you had that nothing made with hands should be worshipped we praise but we thinke you should not haue broken those images For painting is therefore vsed in churches that they which are vnlearned may by sight read that in the walles which in bookes they caÌ„not Your brotherhood should therefore haue spared the breaking of theÌ„ yet restrained the people froÌ„ worshipping them that the rude might haue had how to come by the knowledge of the story yet the people not sinne in worshipping the picture Painted stories Gregory thought might be tolerated in the church for the simple to learne the deathes and martyrdoms of many Saints which in bookes they could not but as for worshipping them he confesseth the people should sinne in doing it and the Bishop did well in keeping them from it And treating in an other place of the same matter he saith The children of the church now disperced are to be called togither and taught by the testimonies of the sacred scriptures that nothing made with hands may be worshipped And so concludeth adoration of images by all meanes auoide S. Ambrose speaking of that crosse on which Christ was crucified saith Helena found the title worshipped the king not the wood surely for that is the error of the Gentiles and vanitie of the wicked S. Augustine requiring the Mâ—nichees to shew what one thing they could mislike in the catholik church Bring me not saith he such christians as either knowe not or keepe not the force of their profession Rake not after the rude sort which euen in true religion are intangled with superstition My selfe know many that are worshippers of tombes and pictures I warne you that you cease to speake euill of the catholike church by carping these mens maners whome the church her selfe condemneth and seeketh euery day to correct theÌ„ as vngracious children Marcellina is reckoned and detested as an heretike by Ireneus Epiphanius and Augustine for hauing the images of Christ and Paul in her closet and setting garlandes on their heades and burning incense to them Marcellina sayth Austen was of Carpocrates sect and worshipped the images of Iesu Paul Homere and Pythagoras with bowing her selfe burning incense So sayth Epiphanius Of this sect was Marcillina of Rome Shee made secretly the images of Iesu and Paul and Homere and Pithagoras and burned incense to theÌ„ worshipped theÌ„ And charging the whole sect of Carpocrates with the same fault he saith The heretikes called Gnostici Besides all this haue images painted with colours and some of gold and siluer which they say are the images of Iesu and made in the time of Pontius Pilate when Christ was conuersant amongst men These they keepe closely And so doth Ireneus also witnesse they all restrayning and adiudging it to be heresie and idolatry to cense bow to the image of Christ or Paul as wel as to the image of Homer or Aristotle Phil. Not so neither Theo. Yeas euen so This in manifest wordes is reckoned by these three fathers for a speciall point part of their wickednes as well as the worshipping of other Philosophers images Phi. Put you no distinction betweene the images of Christ other prophane persons Theo. The worshipping of either is heathenisme idolatry Phi. Call you the image of Christ an Idole Theo. Not vnlesse it be worshipped but if it be then is it an Idoll incense burnt vnto it is idolatrie Phi. How proue you that Theo. If the iudgement of christes church in accompting them heretikes for that act do not weigh heauie enough with you the law of God coÌ„firmeth the same Phi. Where The. You be
wordes are Saint Austens Theophil Your assurance is not currant Shewe vs where that wee may finde them Phi. What if I haue not the booke in a readmeâ— Theo. Name the place and it shâ—ll suffice Phi. Perhaps it is not printed Theo. By whome then is it reported Phi. By such as would not lye Theoph. By Walden the frier that wrate against Wicleff Phil. What if he were the reporter Theophil Where had he it Phi. In an old copie written with an auncient and set hand Theo. Which neuer no man sawe besides himselfe Philand That you cannot tell Theoph. Nor you but where is that copy now Philan. Why aske you me out of S. Augustine he had it Theo. Shew vs the booke and beare the bell Philan. He saith it Theo. As though your frierly practises and manifolde forgeries vnder the fathers names were not too wel knowen to trust a Romish Coruester vpon his bare worde in a matter of such importance Phi. In my conscience hee woulde not wilfullie belye S. Augustine Theophil Your conscience is no good consequence In my knoweledge there was no such doctrine taught in the Church as these woordes import whiles S. Augustine liued nor fiue hundreth yeares after his death but the contrary was earnestly maintained and auouched as I haue prooued by Gelasius Theodoret and others And therefore either Walden must make it of his owne heade or ignorantly light on a patch of Anselmus or some such late writer vnder the name of Saint Augustine which was common in your Abbayes and is at this day confessed by your owne fellowes Philand If you thinke Saint Augustine were mistaken you shall haue in venerable Bede as plaine woordes for this point as in Saint Augustine Theophil And as plainely forged as Saint Augustine was Philand Heare what he saieth before you iudge Theophil I am as ready to heare as you to speake Philand His woordes are Ibi forma panis videtur vbi substantia panis non est There the forme of bread appeareth where the substance of bread is not Theophil These places hit your handes as patte as if your selues had framed them Philand You were best saie this is forged Theophil I neede not It saith so much of it selfe creept you can shewe where it is written Philand In his booke de mysteriis missae Theophil There be extaâ—t eight tomes of his workes is it in any of them Philand It maie be it is not Theophil Did he euer write any such booke as de mysteriis missae Philand What else Theo. Who saith so Phi. This is alledged out of that booke Theo. But is he neuer wrate anie such booke how can thiâ— be allâ—dged out of him Phi. If he did not you saie something but how prooue you that he wrate no such booke Theo. Nâ—y you must prooue he did We hauing the Catalogue of his labours witnessed by Triâ—â—emius and others of your owne friends and eight tâ—mes of his writinges at this day extant find no such booke named as Walden mentioneth Philand All this notwithstanding he might write such a booke Theo. He might is not enough you must prooue he did before we acquite you of corruption Phi. Walden repeateth those wordes as out of his booke Theo. We had too late experience of Walden in S. Austen to beleeue either him or you Phi. You will deny all things Theo. You yet bring nothing but that which is no where found in the fathers workes if it be not lewdly forged in their names Thinke you with such trumperie to trie your selues Catholikes Phi. We haue found and good records Theo. Bring out those for these be worse than rotten A frier fourteene hundreth and thirtie yeares after Christ to come with new places out of Austen and Bede cleane contrarie to the rest of their writings and such as neuer any man alledged before him and neuer any man saw them after him who but seducers would bleare the world and blinde themselues with such authorities Phi. Wee did but alledge them to sound what you would say Theo. Then leaue them with shame since you see what they are and get you to other if you haue anie Phi. You would haue them auncient Theo. Would you prooue your selues Catholikes by men of your owne faction Phi. If you count that a faction all the fathers were of our faction Theo. You may soone make them to any faction if you follow frier Waldens fashion but bring vs their workes that we may iudge of their woordes or els you striue in vaine Phi. Hereafter I will Theo. Then haue you a cold sute of this question For of accidentes without subiect or abolishing the substance of bread neuer father spake one word Phi. Yeas S. Chrysostome â—aith Doest thou see bread doest thou see wine Doe these thinges goe to the draught as other meates doe Not so Thinke not so For as when waxe is put to the fire nothing of the substance remaineth nothing redoundeth so here also thinke thou the mysteries consumed with the substance of the diuine bodie Heare you this Theophilus Nothing of the former substance remaineth but the same is consumed with the presence or substance of Christes bodie Theo. I heare it well Philander if you would take it right When you put waxe into the fire nothing neither shew nor substance remaineth this is so true that it will doe you small good Phi. Will it not So it is in the mysteries saith this father Theoph. You would haue it so But Chrysostome saith so thinke when thou commest to the mysteries Phi. And should wee thinke a falshood when wee approch to the mysteries Theo. No but pull both your hartes and eyes from the materiall elements as not regarding them and fixe your cogitations on the celestial grace and vertue that preuaileth and worketh in the mysteries Phi. He would haue vs thinke the mysteries to be consumed Theo. If any reall mutation were to be concluded by this place your holie formes and accidents of breade and wine must be packing as well as the substance For when waxe is throwen into the fire what accidences can you â—et vs remaining doe they not perish togither with the substance If you consult the Schooles they will tell you the accidentes onely perish the matter doeth not So that Chrysostomes similitude maketh litle for your conuersion of substances without accidences his illation certainly maketh lesse Thinke saieth he that the mysteries in like â—ort be consumed The substance of bread which you say is not can no way be taken with you for the mysteries but the shewes and formes of bread and wine by your opinion must be counted in this and all other places the sacred mysteries and therefore if any mysteries be consumed your accidences can neuer scape the brunt of these wordes Howbeit Chrysostomes true meaning was not to turne the bread and wine from their former qualities or substances but the communicantes from all vnworthy and
dipped his hands in his brothers bloode nor take the wages of Balaam to curse and reuile the people of God nor perish in the contradiction of Corah for resisting both God and the Magistrate but rather that wee may be sanctified and saued by the might of his word and store of his mercy laid vp in Christ his sonne for all that beleeue him and call vpon him Phi. God send vs such part as our fathers had Theo. You be so displeased with God for punishing the sinnes of your fathers with blindnes and error in these later ages that now you will none of his light nor grace though he offer it freely to saue your soules but if you will needes perish your owne bloode be on your owne heades yet haue vs excused if we thinke our sinnes heauie enough though wee adde not thereto the neglect of his worde and contempt of his trueth as you doe In the knowledge of God and reuerence of his iudgements there is a path way to repentaunce and hope of mercy in the proude dislike of his seueritie towards others and sâ—ubberne refusall of his goodnes towards our selues there is nothing but an heaping of extreme vengeaunce which shall consume the wicked and impenitent resisters of his word and spirit Phi. We be not of that number Theo. Were you not you would be more carefull to search and willing to embrace the trueth of Christ once vnderstoode with all readines and lowlines of minde knowing that God resisteth the proud and giueth grace to the humble and not with an high-looking and self-pleasing perswasion that all is yours neglect your duty to God and man Phi. We obserue both Theo. You obserue neither Subiection to your lawfull Prince you haue forsaken and not onely fledde the Realme and incited others to doe the like but the Christian alleageance which the Prince requireth of her subiects you impugne with shifts and slaunders in fauoâ—r of him who wickedly and iniuriously taketh vpon him to be the supreme Moderator of earthly kingdomes chiefe disposer of princes Crowns and so fast are you lincked in confederacie with him that in open view of all men you will allow no Prince to beare the sword longer than shall like him but proclaime rebellions of subiects against their Soueraignes to be iust honorable warres if he authorize them by his Censures And where to cloake your wicked and enormous attempts you boldely surmised that you did whatsoeuer you did for that Religion which was ancient Catholike we haue presently taken you so tardie short of your reckoning that for sixe of the greatest and cheefest points now in question betwixt the Church of England and the Church of Rome and reformed in this Realme by publike authoritie you cannot bring vs so much as one ancient euident testimony that your faith and Doctrine was euer taught or receiued in the primatiue church of christ and yet you please your selues in your owm conceits and compasse the earth to get prosilites fit for such teachers whom you may traine vp in error and vse as instruments to catch vnstable soules and fier vnquiet heades that you by them may disturbe realmes and fishe for Princes thrones and liues in troubled waters Phi. All this is as false as God is true Theo. God himselfe shall skant be trueth if you may be the iudges except hee take your parts But facing and craking laid aside you must referre the iudgement of your doings and sayings to others and not to your selues Phi. To Catholikes I am content The. They must be then of your instructing that is such as will trust neither fathers nor Scriptures against your Canons otherwise in that you haue saide they shall find no great cause to like your impugning the Princes power right to establish Lawes within her owne lande without the Popes leaue and to hold her Crowne against his censures and as litle shall they find to cal you or count you Catholikes Phi. Men of your own pitch will soone assent to any thing Theo. Let them be but indifferent and weigh what you haue brought Phi. More we can bring when we see our times The It skilleth not how much but how sound that is which you can bring Phi. Of that hereafter and yet in the meane time there be many other thinges besides these that you haue handled that must be discussed before we can be pronounced no Catholikes And as in these you seeeme with wresting and wrenching to haue some aduantage so in those we could forthwith confound you The. Euen as you haue doone in these Phi. A great deale more readily if I had time to stay the triall of them but this holy tide I must spend in other matters of more importance Theo. What In spredding newes that the king of Spain doth stay but for the next summer Phi. We meddle not with forraine affaires Theo. A number of you be better seene in policie than in diuinitie you were borne belike to be rulers though it be but of Rebels as Sanders was that thought it a praise to take the field in person against his Prince Phi. My trauell is not to that end Theo. You leaue that for others and trauel to sound the harts of your adherents whether they be in number welth and zeale likely and readie to giue assistance if any should inuade Phi. What vnchristian coniectures you haue of vs Theo. None but such as your owne deedes and wordes occasion Phi What cause haue we giuen you to speake this of vs Theo. What greater cause can you giue than openly to auouch as you haue done in your Defence of Catholiks as you call them yâ— rebellions against such Princes as the Pope deposeth are godly iust honourable wars Phi. If hee may depose them they are Theo. You haue in print affirmed both and sought to proue them with all your might and therefore what shal we thinke your secret whispering and reconâ—ling to the Church of Rome is but a craftie bayte of Malcontentes to make rebels Phi. The parties themselues can witnesse we neuer mention any such thing in our absolution To them we appeale for record Theo. For my part I thinke you doe not It were too grosse conspiracie treason to take vowes and oths of subiects against their Prince by name and therefore if you should take that open course you were worthie to ride to Tyburne not only for traytors but also for disards But when you reconcile them you take assurance of them by vow oth or other adiuration that they shall embrace the Catholike faith and hold Communion vnitie with the Church of Rome for euer after Phi. Why should we not Theo. Then when it pleaseth my Lord the Pope to depriue the Prince and to excommunicate al that assist or agnise her for a lawfull magistrate what must your reconciled sort doe Is it not against their oth faith giuen to you at their restitution to