Apostles Creed is that societie of Beleeuers against which Hell gates preuaile not finally either by Heresie or mortall sinne But Hell gates preuaile against Popes and Popish Prelats by mortall sinne so farre as that they descend into the infernall lake Therefore the Roman Hierarchicall Church consisting principally of Popes and Popish Prelats is not the holy Catholicke Church in the Creed for that Church hath remission of sinnes and life eternall and passeth not into Hell Ioh. 10.28 August d. Doctr. Christ. li. 3. ca. 32. IESVIT The Church whereof Christ said Math. 28.20 I am alwaies with you to the consummation of the world is the Church of the Creed or the Church which to forsake is damnable For the Church wherewith Christ still abideth not according to corporall and visible presence but by his Spirit is the body of Christ whereof he is head into which he infuseth the life of Grace and consequently he that forsaketh this Church forsakes the body of Christ the head thereof and cannot liue by his Spirit but is in a dead and damnable estate as a member cut off and seperated from a liuing bodie as S. Augustine long ago noted The Catholicke Church is the bodie of Christ whereof he is head out of this bodie the holy Ghost quickeneth no man Now the Church whereof Christ said I am alwaies with you to the consummation of the world is not the Church inuisible of onely the Elect but a visible Church deriued by succession from the Apostles therefore hee that forsakes this Church deriued by succession from the Apostles forsakes the Church of the Creed the Catholicke Church the bodie of Christ and puts himselfe into a dead and damnable state and may haue all things besides Saluation and eternall Life as Fathers affirme whose testimonies in this behalfe are notable and famously knowne whereunto D. Field yeeldeth acknowledging One Holy Catholicke Church in which only the light of heauenly Truth is to be sought where only Grace Mercie remission of Sinnes and hope of eternall Happinesse are found ANSWER The Church whereof Christ said Math. 28.20 I am alwaies with you to the consummation of the world is the Church of the holy Apostles of Pastors and Beleeuers succeeding them in the same Faith and Religion and this is a principall part for the Catholicke Church in generall containes all Faithfull and iust persons from Abel c. of the Church in the Creed Secondly some part of the Catholicke Church of the Creed is alwaies visible in the world sometimes in an ampler sometimes in a smaller number of Professours Also the visibilitie thereof is at sometimes illustrious and notorious and at other times it is obscure according to the state of Persecution Thirdly to forsake the true Church in the maine and primarie Articles of Faith or by any wilfull infidelitie is damnable and all people which desire Saluation must actually if it be possible or Voto in case of necessitie conioine themselues to some part of the Orthodoxall Catholicke Church But our Sauiour promised to no one visible Sea or Church continuing after the Apostles by succession of Bishops absolute immunitie from all Errour and infallibilitie of Veritie but only presentiall assistance and protection of Grace sufficicient for the saluation of his people vpon condition to wit when the said Pastours taught and obserued that which he commanded and continued in the right vse of those meanes which he had deposed among them Ioh. 8.31 32. Rom. 11. 22. Read before in this Treatise pag. 94.99 The Testimonies of S. Augustine obiected by the Aduersarie which are That the Catholick Church is the body of Christ whereof he is head and that out of this bodie the holy Ghost quickeneth no man make altogether against himselfe for none are vitall members of Christs mysticall body but iust and holy persons And it is the same Fathers doctrine Impij non sunt reuera Corpus Christi wicked persons are not in deed and veritie Christs bodie And in another place In corpore Christi non sunt quod est Ecclesia quoniam non potest Christus habere membra damnata They are not in Christs bodie which is the Church because Christ cannot haue damnable members And Bernard saith Manifestum est non esse Caput Hypochritae Christum It is euident that Christ is not the head of an Hypochrite But the visible Rulers of the Popish Church haue many times bin as our Aduersaries themselues report not only Hypochrites but apparantly monstrous and damnable sinners therefore they are not the Catholicke Church out of which no Saluation can be had neither is perpetuall influence and assistance of Grace absolutely intailed vpon them Out of the former premises I argue thus Wolues Hipochrites and impious persons are not the holy Catholicke Church of the Creed out of which there is no Saluation Romish Prelats haue beene Wolues Hypocrites and impious men for they haue maintained false and superstitious Doctrine repugnant to the holy Scripture and aduerse to the Faith of the Primitiue Church which Protestants haue and are againe readie to demonstrate and they haue beene most notorious for all kind of abhominable vices as Romists themselues haue published to the World and they haue also most iniustly and tyranically persecuted and oppressed true beleeuers Ergo Romish Prelats are not the holy Catholicke Church of the Creed out of which there is no Saluation Argument 2. Out of the holy Catholicke Church of the Creed there is no Saluation Out of the fellowship of the Roman Church there hath beene and is Saluation Ergo The present Roman Church is not the holy Catholicke Church of the Creed And thus the Obiector hath gained nothing by accusing our Church of fundamentall error and his nine Accusations are prooued to be so many calumniations and we neither erre fundamentally in any maine Article nor yet pertinaciously or maliciously against any other Christian veritie For although whiles we liue in the world tenebras huius mortalitatis circumferimus as S. Augustine speaketh we carrie about vs in regard of our selues the darkenes of mortalitie tamen ad Scripturae lucernam ambulamus yet we studie carefully to walke according to the true light of holy Scripture and God hath hitherto so assisted vs that the euill eye of our Aduersaries is not able to discouer in our Doctrine any capitall Error neuerthelesse if vpon further inquisition they shall make it appeare by diuine testimonie or other sufficient proofe that we are deceiued in any matter of Faith small or great we will be as 〈◊〉 to reforme our selues as they are readie to accuse vs. And in all differences betweene them and vs we submit our selues to a free lawfull generall Councell to be tried by the rule of Gods word concerning which S. Augustine saith Extat authoritas diuinarum Scripturarum vndè mens nostra deuiare non debet nec relicto solidamento diuini
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those things which are behind or wanting 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the afflictions 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Christ in my flesh 〈◊〉 his body which is the Church The first part of these words prooueth that S. Paul suffered for the Collossians But because he might suffer for the confirmation of their faith or as an example of patience or by way of persecution because he preached the Gospell to them and other Churches it cannot be concluded that hee suffered to make satisfaction for their sinnes Secondly The next words conclude not Satisfaction for Christs Afflictions and Passions are of two kinds Some Personall and in his owne flesh Some By Sympathie and compassion in his members The first are satisfactorie the second are exemplarie purgatiue probatiue or for the edifying of the Church S. Paul supplyed not or perfected not the first Esa. 63.3 for then Christs sufferings vpon the Crosse were imperfect but both S. Paul and all other iust persons which patiently beare affliction and indure the Crosse supply and accomplish that which is yet wanting in Christ as he is considered in a mysticall vnion to his Church Christ saith to Saul Act. 9.4 Saul Saul Why persecutest thou me and v. 5. I am Iesus whom thou persecutest S. Augustine and S. Gregorie say That Christ and the Church are one mysticall Body Therefore when the members suffer the head suffers and the afflictions of the members are the afflictions of Christ 2. Cor. 1. 5. 1. Cor. 12. 12. It is also remarkeable that not onely the Fathers but the maior part of Popish Doctors expound this Scripture in such sort that it serueth not at all to maintaine Papall Indulgences And Estius a moderne Pontifician saith That whereas 〈◊〉 of his part straine the Text of S. Paul to prooue Satisfactions and Indulgences himselfe is of mind that the said Doctrine cannot effectually be prooued by this place The other place 2. Cor. 12. 15. I wil verie gladly spend and be spent for you or as the Rhemists translate I most gladly will bestow and will my selfe moreouer be bestowed for your soules affoordeth no argument for Satisfactions and Pardons Caietan Estius Iustinian and other Popish expositors themselues deliuer the sence of this Text in manner following S. Paul manifesteth his paternall affection to the Corinthians saying I am readie not only as a Father to bestow all that I haue vpon you so farre am I from seeking any thing of yours but also to spend my life for you Now by what Art or Engine can Papists extort Pardons or Satisfactions out of this Text doth it follow that if Saint Paul be readie to spend himselfe life and state for the good of his flocke therefore there is a rich stocke and treasure of superabundant Passions and Satisfactions laid vp by S. Paul to bee spent by the Corinthians at their need Surely our Aduersarie intended rather to deride the world than to giue men satisfaction when he presented vs with such inconsequent stuffe But the Iesuit secondeth his former inference by a testimonie of Origen I answer Origen in the place obiected speaketh of purging sinne it selfe by the passions of Martyres and not of the temporall mulct or paine of sinne onely But the bloud of Martyres purgeth not sinne it selfe by way of condigne Satisfaction our Aduersaries being witnesses but at the vttermost by way of Deprecation now Deprecation and Satisfaction properly taken are of diuers natures The place of S. Augustine is strained against his meaning for this Father speaketh of all the members of Christ which suffer for their Masters cause But in our Aduersaries Tenet all that suffer for Christ haue not superabundant Satisfactions but onely some And this Father is so farre from maintaining workes of Supererogation as that he saith Pro modulo nostro exoluimus quod debemus pro posse virium nostrarum quasi canonem passionum inferimus c. According to our small measure we pay that which we are obliged vnto and according to our power we cast in as it were the stint of our passions but they which pay a stint and render that whereunto of right they are obliged haue not superaboundant Passions or workes of Supererogation IESVIT This was the practise of the Primitiue Church which at the petition of constant confessours in prison did release the penalties that sinners were inioined to performe to satisfie non onely the discipline of the Church but also the wrath of God after the remission of sinne still continuing vnto the infliction of temporall paine as appeareth by the testimonie of S. Cyprian And that this relaxation of temporall paine was done by applying the abundant satisfaction of holy Confessours and designed Martyres vnto the poenitents that receiued indulgence at their intercessions appeares by Tertullian For hee falling from the Church into the errours of Montanus whereof one was That for Christians sinning after Baptisme there was no remission of sinne refutes the Catholique custome of remitting penalties vnto sinners for the merits of Martyres speaking thus Let it suffice the Martirs that they haue cancelled and satisfied their owne sinnes Jt is ingratitude or pride for one prodigally to cast abroad vpon others that which as a great benefit was bestowed vpon him And speaking vnto the Martir saith Jf thou bee a sinner how can the oyle of thy lampe suffice both for thee and mee By which haereticall impugnation appeares that the Catholicke Doctrine then was that men might satisfie one for another and that the abundant satisfactions of some that suffered exceedingly as Martirs were applied for the Redemption of some others more remisse and negligent not from eternall but onely temporall punishment ANSWER You are an vnfaithfull Relatour of the practise of the Primitiue Church which was as followeth After foule and enormous knowne offences committed by Christians and especially after denying the Faith or Sacrificing to Idols offendours were put to a grieuous and long Penance It fell out sometimes that there was iust reason why the rigour of Penance should be mittigated either in respect of the kinde of duresse imposed or in regard of the length and continuance Which fauour the Bishops and Pastours of each Church not the Romane onely had authoritie by the Canons to grant as they saw iust cause This mitigation and relaxation of Penance was called by the name of Pardon and Indulgence and in the same there was no buying or selling no reference to Purgatorie Secondly Whereas you pretend that Popes Pardons were in vse in the Primitiue Church many of your owne part controll your impudencie to wit Durand Antonine Maior Roffensis Angelus de Clauasio Cassander And 〈◊〉 denyes That the Church hath any Treasurie 〈◊〉 of the merits of Christ and of the Saints The 〈◊〉 is maintained by Angelus de Clauasio
are baptised and externally professe Christianitie And according to this notion it comprehendeth both the good and the bad the cleane and the vncleane of that profession 2. Tim. 2. 20. Math. 13.25.47 Math. 3.12 c. 22.10 〈◊〉 it is taken for Particular Societies and congregations of Christians Apoc. 1.4 2.1 and sometimes it is taken for the Pastors of particular Churches Math. 18.17 sometimes for the People Acts 20.28 sometimes for the whole Flocke consisting of Pastors and People Apoc. 3.6 But it is neuer taken in holy Scripture for the Pope and Councell If the Iesuit in his Proposition There is a visible Church alwaies in the world c. understand the 〈◊〉 Church in the first Notion then it is denied that we are absolutely to adhere to the Traditions of this Church or that the same is alwaies and intirely One Vniuersal Apostolicall Holy according to the meaning of the Apostles and Nicene Creed Secondly according to the second Notion the Church is not visible for a principall part thereof is in heauen and the other moetie militant vpon earth being considered as elect and holy is knowne intuitiuely to God only 2. Tim. 2.19 and morally coniecturally and according to the iudgement of Charitie to men in this world 2. Thess. 2.13 Thirdly according to the third Notion the Church is visible in all ages and some part thereof teacheth and professeth right Faith in all substantiall and fundamentall articles And we are to cleaue to the Traditions of the same so farre as in the deliuerie thereof it exceedeth and transgresseth not the bounds of lawfull authoritie and teacheth according to the rule of Gods word S. Chrysostome saith Because Seducers are often found even in true Churches we are not to beleeue vnlesse they speake and do that which is consonant to the Scriptures And in another place 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If the Priest teach any peruerse Doctrine giue no credit yea though he were an Angell Nay I will presume to say more than this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one ought not beleeue Paul if he should preach any thing humane or of himselfe but as he is an Apostle and hath Christ speaking in him Lastly according to the fourth Acceptation there are euer in the world particular Churches and societies of Christians and euery one of these Churches professe some portion of diuine veritie But we must enquire by the rule of Gods word which of these are pure and orthodoxall and on the contrarie which of them are infected with errors and imbrace the Doctrine of the one and auoid the Corruptions of the other Remarkable Obseruations concerning the Church OBSERVATION I. THe externall visible Church is an intermixed or compounded societie bodie and state of Christian people professing the faith and worship of Christ in which are found sheepe and goats wheat and tares gold and drosse good fishes and bad and vessels of honour and dishonour This common and generall societie and bodie consisteth of diuers particular Churches consenting and agreeing in the professing of some part of diuine veritie and of these Churches some are orthodoxall some are impure in faith and religion and also these being compared are respectiuely purer or impurer And within the compasse of each particular Church the members are better or worse more or lesse holy or corrupt OBSERVAT. II. Whereas the Church hath many Titles and Properties belonging to it and Christ Iesus the Head thereof hath made sundrie Promises and conferred diuerse Graces vpon it wee must consider which part of the Church is the proper subiect of these Qualities Promises and Graces For it is apparant That as Sheepe and Goats Chaffe and Wheat Gold and Drosse are of a contrarie kind although they are intermixed so likewise the Affections and Attributes of the same although they are spoken in generall of the whole Subiect as an Heape which hath Wheat and Chaffe a Field which hath Wheat and Tares are called an Heape of Graine a Field of Wheat yet many of them appertaine formally and indeed onely to the better part of the common Subiect OBSERVAT. III. In the visible societie of Christian people there are found according to S. Augustine Citizens of the heauenly Hierusalem and also Inhabitants of Babylon And as the same Father teacheth Notum est ciues malae Ciuitatis administrare quosdam actus 〈◊〉 Ciuitatis It is manifest that in the visible Church Burgers of the wicked Citie Babylon doe administer some Functions of the holy Citie Hierusalem Ioh. 12.6 2. Timoth 4.10 Apoc. 3.14 15. Phil. 〈◊〉 Ioh. 3.9 The Promises of Christ made to the Church concerning his presence and assistance to his Word and Sacraments preached and administred according to his commandement are fulfilled when wicked persons execute the office and performe the worke of outward 〈◊〉 For although wicked persons like the Carpenters of Noahs Arke reape no benefit to themselues yet God Almightie concurreth with their Ministerie being his owne Ordinance for the saluation of all deuout and worthie Communicants OBSERVAT. IIII. Some things are spoken of the Church in common or generall tearmes to shew what the whole is in respect of Gods outward vocation or what the office and dutie of the whole Church is but the same promises properties and priuiledges are really fulfilled or found in the better and sounder part thereof onely When our Sauiour promiseth that the gates of Hell shall not preuaile against the Church Matth. 16.18 he vnderstandeth such a Church as heareth and obeyeth his word and not a visible companie or Hierarchie of Prelates which forsake his word and doe what they list August d. Vnit. Ecclesiae cap. 18. Ecclesia in his est qui adificant supra Petram id est qui credunt verbum Christi faciunt d. Baptismo Lib. 6. cap. 24. Nonne illi sunt in Ecclefia qui sunt in Petra Qui autem in Petra non sunt nec in Ecclesia sunt iam ergò videamus vtrum super Petram aedificium suum constituant qui audiunt Christi verba non faciant Saint Augustine in these words deliuereth three things first The Church is in them which build vpon the Rocke secondly They are not in the Church which are not in the Rocke thirdly They onely build vpon the Rocke and are in the Rocke which beleeue and obey the word of Christ And this Doctrine of S. Augustine is taken out of the holy Scripture Matth. 7.24 1. Cor. 3.11 10.4 Also when S. Paul saith The Church is the ground and pillar of Truth 1. Tim. 3. 15. by the Church hee vnderstandeth the House of the liuing God as the precedent part of his speech sheweth to wit If I tarrie long that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the House of God c. But they alone are verily and indeed the House of God which beleeue and loue the Truth
certaine it is that in God all creatures all actions done in the world and all the most secret thoughts of hearts so perspicuously and distinctly shine as they are in themselues so that the Saints hauing light to see the diuine Essence may in him cleerely discerne whatsoeuer is done in the world belonging to their state though neuer so secret according to the saying of S. Gregorie Nothing is done about any creature which they cannot see who see the claritie of the Creator And againe we must beleeue that they who see the claritie of the omnipotent God within themselues are not ignorant of any thing that is without which that Protestants may the lesse dislike I prooue to be grounded on the Scriptures ANSVVER The Popish speculation of the speculatiue glasse of the Trinitie is not Catholicke Doctrine in their owne Schole and therefore the Iesuit is ouerseene in obtruding the same vpon vs. Pius a Ponte a moderne Scholeman hath these words The diuine Essence cannot bee tearmed a Glasse properly neither by Metaphor doth the condition or likenesse of a Glasse properly agree vnto it and he citeth for his Tenet Thomas Caietan Capreolus Durand Ferrariensis and Bannes and the greater part of Pontificians hold that it doth not represent things according to the manner of a naturall Glasse but onely according to the good will and pleasure of God and thereupon they say that it is Speculatum voluntarium such a glasse as according to our manner of apprehension maketh reflection of such notices as God is pleased to manifest more or lesse when in what manner and to what persons himselfe pleaseth And therefore the Iesuits supposition if there were a glasse of diamond may conclude according to the reflection of a naturall glasse but it is inconsequent according to the reflection of a voluntarie glasse Gregorie in the places obiected according to Aquinas speaketh of the sufficiencie of the obiect in it selfe and not of the actuall demonstration which it maketh or else he speaketh of the knowledge of all things essential to blessednesse as Occham and Lombard take it And if his words be taken generally then it will follow that the blessed Saints are ignorant of nothing that is done without them and that they behold intuitiuely euery particular and speciall action and motion both of superiour and of inferiour creatures but our Aduersaries themselues denie this as it hath formerly beene shewed IESVIT First if Saints by reason of their blisfull estate do so participate of diuine nature and wisdome as they communicate with him in the power of gouerning the nations of the world then Saints haue knowledge of things that are done in this world else how could they be able to gouerne and rule it But Scriptures in plaine and expresse tearmes make Saints participate with Christ in the rule and gouernment of the world according to his promise To him that conquereth I will giue power ouer Nations and he shall rule them with a rod of Yron that is with power of inflexible equitie I will make him a pillar in the Temple of my God And the blessed Saints say of themselues That they were chosen out of Countries and Nations to be the Priests of God and that they should rule with him vpon the earth Therefore they know what is done vpon earth so farre forth at least as the affaires of earth do specially appertaine vnto them and such without doubt are our deutionos towards them ANSWER The places of Scripture which you produce to prooue your Assumption c. speake not in plaine and expresse tearmes of Saints deceased but of the Saints liuing in this present world And if they be expounded of Saints deceased the iudiciarie power mentioned in these Texts is that which shal be exercised by them at the last day when they shall be assessors with Christ Mat. 19 28.1 Cor. 6 2. And in this manner the antient Expositors Victorinus Arethas Beda Rupertus Ansbertus and also Hugo Carensis Albertus Lira Viegas Alchasar c expound the first place Reuel 2.26 The second place Reuel 3.12 is expounded of such as are Pillars in the Church militant by Gregorie Ticonius Primasius Haimo Beda Andreas Aretas Anselmus Richardus Ioachimus Albertus Lira Thomas Zegerus and Suares as Alchasar the Iesuit citeth them in his Commentarie vpon that Text who also confuteth Ribera expounding the same of the Church triumphant The third place Apocal. 5. 10. is expounded of the Church Militant by Rupertus Hugo Carensis Gagneus Albertus Alchasar c. And if it bee vnderstood of the blessed Saints they reigne vpon earth by their Doctrine and vertuous examples which they haue left behind them and they reigne vpon earth also not in their owne persons by actuall regiment but in the person of Christ their head Ambrosius Ansbertus who liued in the yeare 890 hath these words That power which the onely begotten Sonne of God being made man in time receiued of his Father he promiseth to giue to his Elect but in himselfe by whom the whole body is ruled and to whom the whole body of the Church is vnited for he as the Apostle saith is the head of all the Elect. If any member therefore shall bee worthy to continue with the head he is truely said to haue that which the head himselfe is prooued to possesse by right of inheritance The like is said by Haimo And from hence it appeareth that the Iesuites exposition of the places in the Reuelations is voluntarie nouell neuer heard off in the antient Church nor deliuered by elder Pontificians neither is the same followed at this day by the learned Expositours of the Church of Rome it selfe and therefore his argument being raysed vpon Scripture fondly expounded is of no force For when hee argueth in this manner Saints pertake with Christ in the rule and gouernment of the World Ergo they heare and vnderstand the prayers and deuotions of the liuing which are made vnto them Our answer is that the blessed Saints doe not partake with Christ as his Ministers Vicegerents or Coadiutors in the actuall rule and gouernment of the inferiour world but they onely partake with him in his gouernment as the friends of the Bridechamber partake with the Bridegroome by reioycing consenting and reaping increase of glorie and happinesse by his actuall rule and gouernment And this latter compartnership with Christ in gouernment prooueth not that the blessed Saints heare and vnderstand the prayers of the liuing but to make his sequele good the Iesuit must prooue both that blessed Saints partake with Christ according to the first branch of my distinction and also that they partake with him intirely and perfectly in euery action of his gouernment For it is possible for one to bee of Councell and to be assistant in gouernment to a King and yet not to bee partaker of all the Kings
Church of which a Councell be it neuer so generall is a verie little part Yea and this verie Assistance is not so absolute nor in that manner to the whole Church as it was to the Apostles neyther doth Christ in that place speake directly of a Councell but of his Apostles Preaching and Doctrine 2. As for Christs being with them vnto the end of the World the Fathers are so various that in the sense of the antient Church wee may vnderstand him present in Maiestie in Power in Aid and Assistance against the difficulties they should find for preaching Christ which is the natiue sense as I take it And this promise was made to support their weakenesse As for his presence in teaching by the Holy Ghost few mention it and no one of them which doth speakes of any infallible Assistance further than the succeeding Church keepes to the Word of the Apostles as the Apostles kept to the guidance of the Spirit Besides the Fathers referre their speech to the Church vniuersall not to anie Councell or Representatiue Bodie And Maldonate addes That this his presence by teaching is or may be a Collection from the place but is not the intention of Christ. 3. For the Rocke vpon which the Church is founded which is the next place wee dare not lay any other Foundation than Christ Christ layd his Apostles no question but vpon himselfe With these S. Peter was layd no man questions And in prime place of Order would his clayming Successors be content with that as appeares and diuerse Fathers witnesse by his particular designement Tu es Petrus But yet the Rocke euen there spoken of is not S. Peters person eyther onely or properly but the Faith which hee professed And to this beside the Euidence which is in Text and Truth the Fathers come in with very full consent And this That the Gates of Hell shall not preuaile against it is not spoken of the not 〈◊〉 of the Church principally but of the not falling away of it from the Foundation Now a Church may erre and daungerously too and yet not fall from the Foundation especially if that of Bellarmine be true That there are many things euen de Fide of the Faith which yet are not necessarie to saluation Besides euen here againe the promise of this stable edification is to the whole Church not to a Councell at the least no further than a Councell builds as a Church is built that is vpon Christ. 4. The last place is Christs Prayer for S. Peters Faith The 〈◊〉 sense of which place is That Christ prayed and obtained for S. Peter perseuerance in the grace of God against the strong temptation which was to winnow him aboue the rest But to conclude an infallibilitie from hence in the Pope or in his Chaire or in the Romane See or in a Generall Councell though the Pope be President I find no antient Fathers that dare aduenture it And Bellarmine himselfe besides some Popes in their owne Cause and that in Epistles counterfeit or falsely alledged hath not a Father to name for this sense of the place till he come downeto Chrysologus Theophylact and S. Bernard of which Chrysologus his speech is but a flash of Rhetorike and the other two are men of Yesterday compared with Antiquitie and liued when it was Gods great grace and our wonder the corruption of the time had not made them corrupter than they are And Thomas is resolute that what is meant here beyond S. Peters person is referred to the whole Church And the Glasse vpon the Canon Law is more peremptorie than he euen to the denyall that it is meant of the Pope And if this place warrant not the Popes Faith Where is the infallibilitie of the Councell that depends vpon it And for all the places together weigh them with indifferencie and either they speake of the Church including the Apostles as all of them doe and then all graunt the voyce of the Church is Gods voyce Diuine and Infallible or else they are generall vnlimitted and applyable to priuate Assemblies as well as Generall Councels which none graunt to be infallible but some mad Enthusiasts or else they are limitted not simply into All Truth but All necessarie to Saluation in which I shall easily graunt a Generall Councell cannot erre if it suffer it selfe to be led by this 〈◊〉 of Truth in the Scripture and take not vpon it to lead both the Scripture and the Spirit For suppose these places or any other did promise Assistance euen to Infallibilitie yet they graunted it not to euerie Generall Councell but to the Catholike Bodie of the Church it selfe And if it be in the whole Church principally then is it in a Generall Councell but by Consequent as the Councell represents the whole And that which belongs to a thing by consequent doth not otherwise nor longer belong vnto it than it consents and cleaues to that vpon which it is a Consequent And therefore a Generall Councell hath not this Assistance but as it keepes to the whole Church and Spouse of Christ whose it is to heare his Word and determine by it And therefore if a Generall Councell will goe out of the Churches Way it may easily goe without the Churches Truth 4. Fourthly I consider That All agree That the Church in generall can neuer erre from the Faith necessarie to saluation No Persecution no Temptation and no Gates of Hell whatsoeuer is meant by them can euer so preuaile against it For all the members of the Militant Church cannot erre either in the whole Faith or in any Article of it it is impossible For if all might so erre there could be no vnion betweene them as members and Christ the Head And no vnion betweene Head and members no Bodie and so no Church which cannot be But there is not the like consent That Generall Councels cannot erre And it seemes strange to me that the Fathers hauing to doe with so many Heretikes and so many of them opposing Church Authoritie in their condemnation this Proposition euen in tearmes A Generall Councell cannot erre should be found in none of them that I can yet see Suppose it were true That no Generall Councell had erred in any matter of moment to this day which will not be found true yet this would not haue followed that it is therefore infallible and cannot erre I haue not time to descend into particulars therefore to the Generall still S. Augustine puts a difference betweene the Rules of Scripture and the definitions of men This difference is Praeponitur Scriptura That the Scripture hath the Prerogatiue That Prerogatiue is That whatsoeuer is found written in Scripture may neither be doubted nor disputed whether it be true or right But the Letters of Bishops may not onely be disputed but corrected by Bishops that are more learned and wise than they or by
commanded points of Controuersie to bee decided according to the rule of holy Scriptures as I shall heereafter make manifest in this Treatise yea sometimes the doctrine of one sound member of the Church hath beene a Soueraigne meanes to conuert errants and consequently to reforme such as were misled by errour Neither is reformation vnreasonable or impossible although they which reprooue others are themselues exorbitant in some things because the same must bee performed not by accomodation to the humor of Reproouers but according to the diuine rule wherein all things are straight and perfect Lastly when the Roman Church it selfe is in Schisme and Combustion which hapned at the Councell of Constance and Basill and in the dayes of Antipopes shall no reformation be required because the Parties litigant being of contrarie opinions the same cannot be proportioned according to euery ones seuerall humour The second reason taken from Councells Customes c. is deficient in both the parts For neither are the Romish doctrines to wit Communion in one kind Popes pardons Latin Seruice Purgatorie Apocryphall Scriptures Vulgar Translation preferred before the Originall Text Transubstantiation c. defined by any generall Councell or deriued from the Apostles or Primitiue Church by custome and vniuersall consent And later Councells and Customes must giue place to holy Scripture Yea according to S. Augustine no vnderstanding man did euer make the Councells of Bishops equall to Sacred Scripture And some of our learned Aduersaries confesse That a generall Councell of Popes Cardinalls and Bishops is not of equall Authority with the Colledge of the Apostles Others also of them affirme That such Councels are fallible and subiect to errour The third reason wherein it is affirmed That Protestants forsaking the common rule of Faith present the world with Scriptures vnderstood by priuate Illumination is grounded vpon a false suggestion for we assume to our selues no other Illumination than only of ordinarie grace and we maintaine no other exposition of Scripture as diuine but such as is deliuered by the holy Ghost in the Scripture And the sence of holy Scripture deliuered by the Primitiue Church is followed by Protestants with farre more respect than by Romists But our Aduerfaries are the men who dissembling the same in words doe in truth maintaine priuate Illumination For they affirme That the Bishops of Rome haue infallibilitie of Iudgement by the immediate inspiration of the Holy Ghost and not by the studie and meditation of holy Scripture IESVIT Wherefore there beeing no possibilitie that the Catholike part could gaine Peace to Christendome by any yeelding vnto our Aduersaries either reasonable or vnreasonable whither should louers of Concord turne themselues but vnto your gracious Maiestie that haue in your Power the Affections of Protestants and therefore would bee the fittest Instrument for their Re-vnion with the Romane Church The God of Charitie hath put into your Maiesties Heart a desire of Vnitie of the Church and in your Hand an Oliue-Bough-Crowne of Peace which you may set on the Head of Christendome which wearie of endlesse Contention poureth foorth vnto your Maiestie her Suppliant Complaint Quem das finem Rex magne laborum And seeing nothing hindereth but that your selfe are not yet satisfied in some Doctrines of the Roman Church particularly in the Nine Points your Maiestie hath set downe in writing J humbly present vnto your Maiestie these my poore Labours for your satisfaction so much desired of the Christian World And to the end that this my Answere may be in it selfe more solid and better accepted of your Maiestie before J descend vnto particulars J thinke best first to shew in generall the Romane to bee the onely true Church For this was the Occasion and Subiect of the Conference betwixt Dr White and mee ANSWER What a vast and impossible I will not heere say impious enterprise doe you in the depth of your sublimated wit cast vpon our Gracious Soueraigne Must his Maiestie haue the Office of a Proctor and Factor for the Court of Rome nay of a Lieutenant of the Papall Forces to revnite all Protestants to the Church of Rome Had you meant the procuring of a Free Generall Coancell of all Christendome or at least of all the Westerne Church for the reducing eyther of the Deuiate parts home to the Truth or the exasperated parts to a more charitable complying in things indifferent or tollerable in which discussion as well the Papacie it selfe as other matters might bee subiect to Tryall such a Worke might be fit for a Church-man to mooue and for his Majestie to affect than whom no Prince no nor priuate Christian is more forward in Zeale and furnished in Wisedome to purge the Distempers and heale the Wounds of the Christian Church But your former words shew the frensie of the Demand when you fore-lay this for a Ground Satis imperitè nimis obstinatè That those particular Enormities that wee Protestants call to haue reformed are the verie Foundations of the Vnitie of Faith Catholike Principles c. And so this your dreamed Re-vnion must bee not to come on your part one step towards vs but our running headlong to you which is no other than a slauish subjection of all Churches to the Papacie and the trampling Gods Truth and Gods People vnder the foot of the vnerrable vncontroulable Grand Seigniour of the seuen-Hilled Citie It seemeth you haue forgotten or would extinguish the validitie and memorie of his Majesties most judicious Writings in maintenance of Orthodoxe Religion and of the Libertie of Christendome and shaking the verie Foundations of Papall Corruptions and Tyrannie Otherwise you neuer would thus boldly and leaudly call to so puissant a Champion in the Lords Battailes to sound Retreat To whom the state of Christendome to speake in your phrase poureth foorth her Suppliant Complaint but to an end opposite to your Projects Qua Roma patet fera regnat Erinnis In facinus iurasce putes Dent ocius omnes Quas Meruere pati sic stat sententia poenas TOVCHING THE NECESSITIE OF VNderstanding the Qualitie of the ROMAN CHVRCH IESVIT Thinke best first to shew in generall the Roman to be the onely true Church For this was the occasion and subiect of the conference betwixt Dr. WHITE and me and is the most important and manifest point of controuersie in which all other are inuolued ANSVVER THe most important Neither most nor important at all to all but onely to those who are either inuolued in that Church or vexed by it If people may attaine saluation without knowing the qualitie of the Romane Church then it is not of all Questions and Controuersies most important to know whether the Romane Church is the true Church or not But many people may bee saued without this knowledge for all they may attaine saluation which are baptised and which beleeue and repent Mark 16 16. Acts 2 38. and which haue all the ordinarie meanes of Saluation
1. Tim. 2 4. But without vnderstanding the qualitie of the Romane Church people may be baptised beleeue and repent and haue all the ordinarie meanes of saluation as appeareth by the Iewes Asts 2 41. and the Eunuch Acts 8 37. and Lydia Acts 16 14. and many Gentiles Acts 13 48. and the elect Ladie and her children 2. Iohn v. 1 2 4. and the Corinthians Galatians Ephesians and the seuen Churches of Asia Apoc. 2 3. c. Occham saieth that after Christs ascension many people were saued before the Roman Church had anie being and AEneas Siluius affirmeth That the first 300 yeares before the Nicene Counsell small regard was had of the Roman Church Iohannes Maior saieth It were ouer hard to affirme that the Indians and other Christans which liue in remote countries should be in the state of damnation because they were ignorant That the Bishop of Rome is head of the Church if they beleeue other necessarie Articles of Saluation And Alchasar saieth Before such time as the publique nuptials betweene the Roman and other Churches were celebrated by a common receiued custome a lesse frequent communion with that Church was sufficient Seconly It is no Article of the Apostles Creed or of any other ancient Creed neither is it delinered in any plaine text or sentence of holy Scripture That all Christian people must receiue their beleefe from the Roman Church or that the same intirely shall in all ages continue in the doctrine and faith receiued from the Apostles yea the contrarie is taught in holie Scripture Rom. 11 22. But if the doctrine aforesaid were fundamentall and of greatest importance the same must haue beene plainely deliuered either in holy Scripture or in all or some of the auncient Creedes IESVIT The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth 2. Tim. 3 15. The eminent Rocke and Mountaine filling the whole world on the top whereof standeth the Tradition of sauing Doctrine conspicuous and immooueable Ergo Jt is the most important Controuersie of all other to know whether the Roman Church be the true Church ANSVVER Foure texts of Scripture are produced to proue that it is the most important controuersie of all other to know whether the Roman Church be the true Church but neither are the places of Scripture expounded rightly neither is the Iesuits islation from them consequent or firme 1 Although it were granted that the totall certaintie of Christiantie dependeth vpon the Church yet because the Roman Church is not the whole Church but onely a part and member thereof Rom. 1 6. and such a member as may erre and proue vnsound Rom. 11 22. The knowledge of the state and qualitie of that Church cannot be simply necessarie and consequently not a matter of greatest importance to be vnderstood 2 The places of Scripture 1. Tim. 3 15. Math. 16 18. Esay 2 1. Dan. 2 35. proue not the question The first place to wit Math. 16 18. is expounded by manie interpreters of Christ himselfe and by the most of the faith which S. Peter confessed touching Christ. And our Sauiour affirmeth not in this Text that the Roman Church of euerie age is a Rocke but that the Church of right beleeuers is builded vpon a Rocke and so the Church is one thing and the Rocke another because nothing is builded vpon it selfe The second place 1. Tim. 3 15. 〈◊〉 that the Church which is the house of the liuing God is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the pillar and ground of Truth 1. If by the Church we vnderstand the Catholicke Church as it containeth the holie Apostles then this commendation agreeth fully and perfectly to it in respect of the Apostles who were led into all Truth Iohn 16 13. and which taught whilest they 〈◊〉 all Truth and they do at this present day in the Scripture teach the fulnesse of Truth 2. If by the Church we vnderstand the Church of Christ liuing after the Apostles the same is by office and calling the pillar and ground of Truth in all ages And some part or other thereof Truth of God 〈◊〉 to saluation But the present Church is not 〈◊〉 and simply in all things the pillar and ground of Truth but so farre onely as it teacheth the doctrine reuealed by the holie Ghost and groundeth her faith vpon the word of God and this is proued because the Church Apostolicall was free from all errour but succeeding Pastors and Doctors may erre in Ecclesiasticall censures in degrees legislatiue in sermons disputations and other tractats as our Aduersaries themselues confesse and they which propugne the infallible authoritie of the present Church restraine the same to the Pope and Councell of which S. Paul is silent 1. Tim. 3 15. And from hence I inferre That the Church wherein the Apostles taught and gouerned was the ground and pillar of Truth fully intirely and in all things But the present Church is so with limitation conditionally and so farre forth onely as it deliuereth the Apostles doctrine Lastly the Roman Church can challenge no greater priuiledge of Infallibilitie from this Scripture than the church of Ephesus of which the Apostle speaketh litterally in the said Text. But although the Church of Ephesus was by office the pillar and ground of Truth yet the same did afterwards degenerate and depart from the right Faith which argueth that particular Churches such as were the Roman Ephesine Corinthian c. are not in such sort the pillar and ground of Truth as that they are in no danger of errour The other two places Esay 2 1. Dan. 2 35. are principally vnderstood of Christ and his Apostles and they proue not the Iesuits position which is It is the most important controuersie of all other to know whether the Roman Church is the true Church for the present Church of Rome is a Molehill and not the Mountaine prophesied of Esay 2. the same filleth not the whole world but onely a small part of the world neither did the same antiently for 500 yeares at the least fill the whole world for many people both in the East and West were Christians without depending vpon it neither is the same alwaies illustrious for Vertue and Truth but sometimes notorious for Superstition and Vice If our Adnersaries will contend That there is in all ages avisible Church like vnto a great Mountaine filling the whole world vpon the top whereof standeth the Tradition of all true doctrine conspicuous and illustrious 1. The places of Esay and Daniell affirme not this concerning all times and ages of the Church 2. The Scriptures foretell a large reuolt and apostasie from heauenly trueth 3. Our Aduersaries themselues acknowledge that the outward face of the visible Church at some times hath beene and againe may be miserably polluted with foule and enormious scandals and abominations IESVIT If this Church bee ouerthrowne the totall
16. 12. Iohn 10. 8. Ezek. 22. 26. Secondly the same apeareth to be true both by the example of the greater Prelates of the Asian Churches which corrupted true Doctrine and worship and prouoked the Almightie so much that he remooued their Candlesticke out of his place and also by the example of the West Church it selfe wherein Popes and greater Prelates haue been illiterate Monsters Diuels incarnate Apostataes men defiled with all wickednesse and abominable sinnes as Papists themselues report And concerning Doctrine it is euident by comparing their decrees with the Scriptures and the ancient Fathers and Councels that they are in many things departed from the truth And Occham saith Omnis congregatio quae potest errare contra bonos more 's potest errare contra fidem quia mali mores excacant intellectum Because euill manners blinde the iudgement therefore euery assembly which may erre notoriously in manners may erre against the Faith But if by true Church we vnderstand a number of Beleeuers smaller or greater teaching and professing right Faith in all substantiall and capitall points and willing to imbrace and teach all other diuine veritie when the same is made knowne vnto them then it is granted that there is a true Church of Christ alwayes in the world And this kind of Beleeuers doe either teach and professe their Faith and Religion in congregations apart or in the externall fellowship and common societie of corrupt Beleeuers as appeareth by the example of the Iewes in the dayes of their wicked Kings and Priests and in the time of the Pharisees The open and publicke ministerie of Priests was corrupt in those dayes yet God had a remnant of people and small Church in the middest of this blindnesse Esay 1.9 In the other part of this Section the Iesuite produceth an Argument to prooue That there is alwayes a true Church of Christ in the world The summe of his Argument is Christ neuer leaueth the world destitute of the ordinarie meanes of saluation and people cannot haue the meanes of saluation but from the true Church and by the Tradition thereof by which they receiue the Scriptures and the rule of Faith to guide them in the exposition of the Scriptures ANSVVER It is lost labour to spend time in proouing against vs that there is alwayes in the world a true Church for wee haue euer acknowledged this The thing that we denie is that although there bee alwaies in the world a Church the 〈◊〉 members whereof are free from damnable and 〈◊〉 errour yet there is not alwaies a true Church in the world whose commanding Prelates are free from all error or 〈◊〉 part of it from malicious error Secondly It is granted that Christ doth not according to his antecedent will leaue the world destitute of the meanes of Saluation Math. 23.37 1. Timoth. 2.4 2. Pet. 3.9 But notwithstanding this will of Christ many people may be actually destitute of the meanes of Saluation by the negligence of Preachers and through their owne negligence or malice contemning or repelling the said meanes when they are offered vnto them Acts 13.46 Thirdly A corrupt visible Church may truely deliuer some parts of sacred Truth and among other verities it may deliuer the Apostles Tradition touching the Canon of the Scripture and also the rule of Faith contained in the Apostles Creed This appeareth by the Churches of the Nestorians at this day and also of old by the Iewish Church which at such times as it was Idolatrous and vnsound preserued the Canon of the Scriptures of the Old Testament and by transcribing and reading deliuered the whole Text thereof truely Rom. 3.2 and Acts 15.21 Fourthly If we should grant which is false as appeareth by the Greeke Church that there was in some ages past no other Church but the Roman and the adheres thereof and affirme withall that the chiefe Prelats thereof and their faction maintained sundrie erronious and superstitious doctrines yet because all Doctors and people liuing within the externall communion of that Church were not equally poysoned and surprised with error but many among them firmely beleeuing all fundamentall 〈◊〉 were 〈◊〉 by adeu out and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in some other points It followeth not that the world should be destitutes of all meanes of saluation for these founder members lining in the visible Roman Church might deliuer the maine and capitall Articles of Christianitie and their ignorance and error in other matters was in those daies pardonable because they offended in simplicitie and were 〈◊〉 unawares IESVIT Secondly this Church must be alwaies visible and conspicious for the Traditions of the Church must euer bee famous glorious and notoriously knowne in the world that a Christian may say with S. Augustine I beleeue nothing but the consent of Nations and Countries and most celebrious fame Now if the Church were hidden in secret invisible in any age then her Traditions could not bee Doctrines euer illustriously known but rather obscure hidden Apochriphall Ergo the Church the mistris pillar and foundation of Truth must bee alwaies visible and conspicuous which if need bee may be further prooued most euidently ANSVVER The Church according to the Popish Tenet is said to be Visible because it alwaies hath such an outward forme and appearance in the eyes of the world as that people are able by sence or common reason to know the same materially and to distinguish it from other societies of infidels and Hereticks And by the Church in this question they vnderstand a companie of beleeuers professing Christian Faith without error submitting themselues to the Bishop of Rome as to their vniuersall Visible head And they affirme concerning the said Church that it may at all times be sensibly knowne and discerned and that the place of aboad and the principall members thereof are openly knowne and the externall actions of the same to wit Preaching Praying administration of 〈◊〉 may bee alwaies heard and seene and that the same is perpetually sensible and 〈◊〉 like vnto earthly kingdomes and common weales Some few of them acknowledge that it is possible for the same for some short season to loose part of the externall amplitude and glorie and to be ouershadowed with clouds and stormes of Heresies Scismes and Persecutions but yet they all 〈◊〉 that euen in those tempestuous seasons it is conspicuous to the world in regard of the principall members and that the common and ordinarie condition of the true Church is to be amply famously and in a glorious manner visible But our Tenet is First That the true Church abideth oftentimes in persecution either of 〈◊〉 and externall enemies or of domesticall foes And in time of persecution by either of 〈◊〉 enemies it may be reputed a false Church or impious Sect by the multitude and consequently be vnknown to the wicked world vnder the Notion of holy and true and in such
will not demonstrate that it is the Church vniuersall For both the Iewes and also sundrie Christians which are no Romists are largely diffused ouer the World and exercise their Religion in places where they make their abode and there is nothing more presumptuous than to make externall Fame and Amplitude which are things common and separable proper notes of a true Church and vpon this ground to reiect and censure smaller Churches which haue lesse fame in the World but more Veritie IESVIT Most manifestly Holy in all kind of high extraordinarie Sanctitie giuing notorious signes and tokens thereof striking admiration into carnall men that are not altogether prophane and diffusing abroad among Infidels the sweete Odour of Christ and the Christian Name ANSWER Passing by your boasting of Manifestly Holy in all kind of high and extraordinarie Holinesse notorious striking admiration c. And putting you in mind of Solomons Prouerbe There is a man that boasteth himselfe to be rich and yet hath nothing Prou. 13. 7. I answere the matter first You must be aduertised that Gregory Moral l. 33. c. 26. saith Praedicatores Antichristi sanctitatis sibi speciem arrogant sed tamen opera iniquitatis exercent Antichrists Preachers arrogate vnto themselues a shew of holinesse and practise the workes of iniquitie This will be verified in such as you are if your forme of externall holinesse bee not conioyned with holy and Orthodoxall Doctrine You must therefore first of all prooue your doctrine to be Orthodoxall in the Articles in question betweene the reformed Churches and you before your miracles and specious holinesse can stand you in any stead And there is no kind of externall holinesse which heretickes haue not pretended and practised in shew before men Secondly your owne friends and followers testifie That your Church hath beene for many ages notoriously defiled with the enormitie of vices Some of them say in generall tearmes that from the crowne of the head to the sole of the foot the vlcerous matter of enormous sinne hath defiled and deformed the whole body and state of Christianitie liuing vnder your profession Others affirme that all Ecclesiasticall and Christian discipline was in a manner extinguished in euery place Others say that oppression rapine adulterie incest and all pestilent vice did confound all sacred and prophane things and that the same beat S. Peters ship so impetuously that it began to hull or wallow vpon the to-side Others that vices were so exalted and multiplied that they hardly left any space to Gods mercie Others say there is no place wherein is found so little pietie and Religion as in those people which dwell neerest to Rome Others say that you haue not onely imitated and matched but surpassed all the auarice ambition lubricitie and tyrannie that was euer heard of amongst the heathen Sundrie of your owne part haue written volumes containing Narrations of the outragious wickednesse which raigned among 〈◊〉 They haue stiled your grand fathers Monsters of mankind The dregs of vice Incarnate deuils c One saith Nothing was more luxurious couetous and proud than Priests they spent the Churches patrimonie in gluttonie ryot vpon dogs and queanes and all their preaching was to Matthew Paris saith The 〈◊〉 of Rome seeke not to make people deuout but to fill their coffers with treasure they studie not to win soules but to 〈◊〉 vpon other mens reuenues they oppresse the godly and impudently vsurpe other mens right they haue no care of honestie or right King Iohn of England from whom Pope Innocent extorted fortie thousand markes at once and twelue thousand annually to absolue his kingdome being interdicted said That he had learned by wofull experience that the Pope was ambitious beyond all men liuing an insatiable gulfe and thirster after monie and readie for hope of gaine like waxe to be 〈◊〉 to any kind or degree of 〈◊〉 Aluares hath these words The mysticall Sion the Church which in her primitiue state was adorned of her spouse with such and so many royall graces is now clouded and eclipsed with the blacke mist of ignorance iniquitie and errour and we behold her cast downe from heauen and as a desart vnhabited of vertue and if any godly people remaine they are esteemed as Arabians and Saracens And in the same place The Prelates of the Church are an armie of deuils Potius depraedandis spoliandis scandalizandis hominibus quam lucris animarum operam dantes They rather labour to rob spoile and scandalise men than to win soules Honorius Angustodonensis who liued in the yeere 1120. hath these words Turne thee to the citisens of Babylon and obserue what manner of people they be and by what streetes they walke come hither to the top of the mountaine that thou mayest behold all the habitations of the damned citie Looke vpon her Princes and Iudges Popes Cardinals Prelates the verie seate of the beast is placed in them All dayes they are intent to euill 〈◊〉 occupied without satietie in the works of iniquitie they not onely themselues act but instruct others to flagitious wickednesse they make port-sale of things sacred they purchase that which is wicked and labour with all their might that they may not descend alone to hell Turne thy selfe to the Clergie and thou shalt see in them the tent of the beast they neglect Gods seruice they are slaues to worldly lucre they defile their Priesthood through vncleannesse they seduce the people by hypocrisie they deny God by euill workes they abandon all the Scriptures appointed for mans saluation they lay snares all manner of wayes to ruine the people and are blind guides going before the blinde to perdition Contemplate also the societies of Monkes and thou shalt discerne in them the tabernacles of the Beast by faigned profession they mocke God and prouoke his wrath they betrample their rule with vile manners they deceiue the world by their habit c. Many of them are deuoted to gluttonie and sensuall appetite they putrifie in the filth of vncleannesse Behold the habitation of Nunnes and thou shalt obserue in them a Bride-chamber prepared for the Beast These from their tender yeeres learne leaudnesse they associate many to them to accumulate their damnation They make haste to bee vailed that they may more freely let loose the reines of luxurie they are prostituted worse than any Harlots like an insatiable gulfe they are neuer satisfied with the dung of vncleannesse These insnare the soules of yong men and shee among them which transcendeth her fellowes in leaudnesse beares away the bell Thirdly the Roman Church hath many passages in the verie course of Doctrine to destroy or corrupt holinesse for to omit their grosse superstitions Pharisaicall Traditions and other impieties against God First They depriue people of the reading and hearing of the holy Scripture which is a principall meanes to destroy Vice and kindle
an vniforme Tradition of all ages that the place of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 3. 12. is vnderstood of Popish Purgatorie or Math. 16. 19. Iohn 20.23 of Iubilees and Indulgences or the place of Acts 10. 13. Rise Peter and kill of murthering Princes or of the temporall dominion of the Pope If the Papists would impose no other sence vpon the Scripture than such as is confirmed by vniforme Tradition the difference betweene them and vs would easily bee composed but these men euerie day hatch nouell expositions and when they are hunted out of one they flie to another They glorie of antiquitie succession vniforme Tradition and cry Victoria Inuincible Vnanswerable before the combate is finished but they are compelled to forge Authours to impose false expositions vpon the Texts of Fathers sometimes to abridge sometimes to inlarge the Tomes of Councells and to purge and corrade Ecclesiasticall writers old and new and yet being vnable to preuaile by all the former they are forced in many cases to presse the bare authoritie of the Pope and his adheres to warrant their Tradition IESVITS 3d. Argument My third proofe I ground vpon a principle most certaine and set downe by your most gratious Maiestie That the Roman Church was once the Mother Church and consequently the One Holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church all other Churches being her daughters and that she is not to be forsaken further than it can be prooued that she departed from her selfe that is from the Mother and originall Doctrine deliuered by the Apostles ANSWER This principle whereupon you ground your third Argument is neither true in it selfe nor yet confessed by his excellent Maiestie in the place whereunto you referre vs His Maiestie affirmeth That wee ought not to depart from the Church of Rome in Doctrine or Ceremonie further than she had departed from her selfe in her best estate and from Christ her head This sentence of our most religious King is consequent vpon S. Pauls doctrine Rom. 12. 18. Rom. 14. 13. and the same is consonant to Charitie and Reason and argueth a mind desirous of Concord and Peace and averse from vnnecessarie Innouations And as this moderation is commendable in all men so it is most agreeable to him that is a Father of peace whose word is Beati Pacifici But whereas you incroach vpon his Maiesties speech adding a glosse which is not warranted by the Text and infer a conclusion which the premises affoord not you are herein iniurious both to the Author you alleage and to the Truth The Roman was neuer by diuine institution the Mother Church in regard of all Christians neither Vniuersall in respect of an absolute command and iurisdiction ouer all particular Churches as is challenged by the Canon Dist. 12. c. 1. Non decet c. But it was once a Mother Church as the Seas of Patriarches are stiled Mother-Churches or a Mother-Church respectiuely to such people and nations as were conuerted by her preaching and other Churches were stiled with that title as well as the Roman Theoderet speaking of the Church of Hierusalem saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We make knowne vnto you that the most reuerend and godly Cyrill is made Bishop of Hierusalem which is the Mother of all Churches The Roman Church once a Metropolitan or patriarchall Mother Church since the daies of Hildebrand is suspected to be the Mother spoken of Apoc. 17. 5. and some of your owne part haue said that in these latter times Nontam se matrem exhibet quam Noueream she behaueth her selfe more like a stepdame than a naturall mother her brests haue beene verie drie for sundrie ages past and she depriued her children of a principall portion of the food of life and in steed of milke deliuered them water mixt with chaulke Her publicke readings and seruice were in an vnknowne tongue the holy Scriptures were closed vp that people might not cast their eies vpon them fabulous legends were read and preached in steed of Gods word and hereby it came to passe as some of their owne Authors say That the greater number of people vnderstood no more concerning God and things diuine than Infidels or Heathen people IESVIT But she cannot be prooued to haue changed her Doctrine since the Apostles by any monuments of Historie or Antiquitie yea the contrarie in my iudgement may be most euidently prooued in this sort ANSVVER If by monuments of Historie and Antiquitie be vnderstood Human or Ecclesiasticall Monuments it is inconsequent to inferre that the present Roman Church hath not changed her doctrine since the Apostles although this could not be demonstrated by monuments of Historie c. for there remaineth a more firme and demonstratiue Argument to prooue this to wit the holy Scripture and if the present doctrine of the Roman Church disagree with the Scripture then it is changed from that which it was antiently The rule by which we must trie doctrines is the word of God and not humane Historie and the word of God is true and abideth for euer whereas humane Historie is fallible contingent and corruptible 1. It is not absolutely necessarie that humane Histories of all matters should be composed and the world continued many ages without any written Historie Secondly When the same are written they cause onely humane Faith Thirdly they may totally perish and be suppressed or corrupted by the enemies of Truth Fourthly Historie may be repugnant to Historie and that which is affirmed by some may be contradicted or contrauerted by others and the largenesse and difficultie of the Monuments of Antiquitie may be such as that few people can be able to read and examine them and if they which read and compare them be opposite in iudgement each to other the greater part of people shall be perplexed and cannot know how to resolue themselues Our Aduersaries teach vs That the principall Monuments of Antiquitie to wit the ancient Councels haue not beene faithfully preserued Many things supposititious haue beene added to the workes of the Antient and bastardly Bookes and Sentences passe vnder the titles of Fathers Our Aduersaries being a party whose doctrine is to be examined according to their owne challenge by Monuments of Antiquitie haue presumed to correct purge and alter such Records Lastly when the testimonie of Historians repugnant to their present Tenet is produced against Papals they despise and reiect them to wit Eusebius Socrates Sozomene c. Baronius a new vpstart censureth all Historians Pighius after one thousand yeares controls the testimonie of generall Councels and it is a rule among them that the antient Fathers then much lesse Histories are not to be 〈◊〉 any 〈◊〉 than they 〈◊〉 the keyes and 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 Church IESVIT The Doctrines that were for diuers ages vniuersally receiued in the Christian Church and no time of their beginning is assigneable
vse no Image made of sensible matter but such onely as is perceiued by vnderstanding But if we consider the Pictures and Puppets which now a daies in most places our Romists make of the blessed Virgin we may wish that they had made only dead or confused pourtraitures And what Christian eyes if not bleared with the fogge of Superstition can with patience behold the dresses attires and various fashions wherin they 〈◊〉 present the B. Virgin yea many times like a Curtesane or after the lightestand most immodest fashions of the world What proportion or correspondence is there with the sampler in these prodigious formes IESVIT The office of an Jmage is to carrie the imagination of the beholders thereof directly and immediatly to the person imagined therein Jmagination of parts in the person represented answering vnto the parts seene in the Image which kind and vse of Images nature allowes vnto men to the end they may remember and more fully imagine persons absent and remooued from their corporall fight vpon whom they ought and haue great desire liuely and staidly to fix their imaginations and thoughts ANSWER Images of visible persons and creatures may leade the imagination of Beholders to the Person and Creature represented by them But Images of Christ and of the Trinitie and of the glorified Saints are deficient in their expression and representation and they may misleade the imagination and ingender a carnall conceit of those Persons and also hinder the spirituall knowledge and Faith which people ought to haue of them The Spirit of God which knoweth best what helpes are vsefull and necessarie to eleuate our mindes to spirituall Contemplation hath left vs his Gospell wherein Christ Iesus is depainted before the eyes of our soule Galathians 3. 1. And also the holy Sacraments which are visible signes and Seales of Grace but if painted and carued Images had beene such motiues and effectuall meanes to infuse godly memorie and heauenly desires into our hearts as 〈◊〉 pretend wee may be assured that our great Paraclete would haue expresly appointed and recommended the same in his Word so farre would hee haue beene from perpetuall defacing of Images and condemning the ordinarie vse of them in his Worship I answere therefore It may bee the Office or vse of some Images to wit of such as agree with the Prototype and which are permitted by the Word of God and are lawfully made and vsed to leade the imagination of the beholders to the remembrance of the person and thing imagined But if people presume beyond their modell and aduenture to delineate that in Pictures and Images which they know not and inuent a kinde of Teaching which was not learned in the Schoole of Christ their owne inuentions prooue snares and their Images beget vaine imaginations to say no worse of them IESVIT Hence ariseth the allowed Principle of Nature receiued by all Nations ciuill and barbarous Ita vt in eo to speake with Saint Augustine Nulla Doctorum paucitas nulla indoctorum turba dissentiat That the Image may and ought to stand for the Prototype and is by imagination to be taken as if it were the verie person and what wee outwardly doe to the Image is done by imagination vnto the person As when wee kisse the hands and feete of the Jmage in our imagination wee kisse the hands and feet of the Person inwardly imagined by his Image ANSWER It is no Axiome of Nature that euerie Artificiall Image deuised by man may and ought to stand for the Prototype and is by imagination to bee taken as if it were the very Person and what wee outwardly doe to the Image is done by imagination to the Person but onely of such Images as are lawfully appointed either by Ciuile or Diuine Ordinance to these ends The brasen Serpent was a Figure and Image of Christ and yet it did not in such sort stand for the Prototype as that outward Adoration and burning of Incense might lawfully be done vnto it In like sort the Paschall Lambe was a figure of Christ Ioh. 1. 29. cap. 19. 36. and yet no holy 〈◊〉 kissed or saluted or censed or bowed downe to the Paschall Lambe The Cherubins according to our Aduersaries Tenet were Images and yet they were neuer honoured or adored with kissing kneeling Incense or any other signe in speciall directed to them And if any man saith Vasques hold otherwise it is a conceit of his owne braine hauing no foundation It is not necessarie therefore according to the Law of Nature but at the furthest contingent to exhibite the same outward Actions of Honour Loue Reuerence and Obeysance to Figures and Images which belong to the Principall In ciuile Comportment it is lawfull and in some cases it is a matter of dutie to be vncouered and to vse reuerence in the Kings Chamber of Presence and before his Chaire of Estate when his Person is absent but these and the like Actions exceed not the bounds of ciuile Obseruance In the Church which is Gods house wee vncouer our heads and wee kneele and make Obeysance before the Altar or Communion Table not to the figure of the Temple or to the Table materially or formally considered but to Christ himselfe And when wee worship towards the East as the antient Christians did if there be a Crucifix painted in the Window for Ornament or Memorie wee direct no part of our Obeysance to that painted Image but to our blessed Sauiour who hath visited vs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Day or Easterne Light from on high Luc. 1. 78. And it is so farre from beeing vniuersally true that the Image is to be taken for the Prototype that in some cases wee may adore the one and deface and abolish the other as appeareth in the Brasen Serpent If saith Alphonsus Castro Christian people were in our dayes as prone to Idolatrie as the people of Israel then were and that they could not otherwise be reclaimed I should thinke that Images were to be broken in peeces The same is affirmed by Corduba and Tapia IESVIT This is the Axiome of Philosophie gathered out of Aristotle Idem est motus in imaginem exemplar For Motion proceeding from the bodie and from the mind what the bodie doth really and externally to the Image the mind doth imaginarily that is by conceit and affection to the person ANSVVER Principles of Nature containing themselues within their owne bounds are to be embraced but sacred and religious Actions are regulated by a Diuine and supernaturall Modell 1. Cor. 2. 5 6 9. c. The Word of God hath set a blacke marke vpon Images deuised by man when they are applyed to worship And therefore although in humane and ciuill vse the Image might in some sort stand for the Prototype and by imagination be taken and vsed as the person resembled by it yet in things religious and sacred it is otherwise When the
vpon the Doctrine and by the power of the holy Ghost is farre more vnreasonable than to forsake that which is exhibited by a dead and dumbe picture Thirdly your counterfeit Athanasius is a child of darkenesse not placed at all in the workes of Athanasius by your selues read the seuerall impressions of this Author at Rome Paris Basill c. Anno 1520 1555 1564 1572 1581 1582 1598 1608 and there is no such worke of his to be found and therefore Harding Turrian Gretsar and your selfe abuse the world in alleading such bastardly stuffe IESVIT And therefore the danger of ignorant peoples erring by Jmages is without reason so much insisted vpon by Protestants their English Translation being as I haue shewed a more dangerous blocke for fooles to stumble at and so fall into damnable errors If they presume that by diligent instruction they may and would haue vs thinke that they doe preserue their people from that error why should they not thinke that the Roman Church being so potent with her children can keepe them from the foolish error of attributing life and diuinitie vnto dead and dumbe Images and that shee will so doe being so strictly commanded by the Councell of Trent to vse her greatest diligence in this point that ignorant people fall not into error by any Image which otherwise haue many profits and vtilities ANSWER It is possible for ignorant people notwithstanding admonitions to worship Images not thinking actually of the Prototype and in this case their worship is terminate in the verie Image But it is needlesse for vs to insist vpon the matter of abuse for if the thing it selfe to wit adoration of Images be vnlawfull then it is in vaine to deliuer precepts and cautions to moderate excesse in the performance of it But that adoration of Images is vnlawfull it hath formerly beene prooued by the words of the morall Law and the perpetuall practise of the Iewish Church and of the Primitiue Church for certaine ages which neither worshipped Images and which reiected in a manner all vse of them in religion IESVIT About which J will not inlarge my selfe but onely mention some of them The first is an easie and compendious way of instruction in which respect they are tearmed by S. Gregorie The Bookes of the vnlearned and as another Gregorie saith The silent Pictures speakes in the wall and profiteth very much ANSWER This reason whether it be true or false serueth onely to commend the Historicall vse of Images and yet some learned Papists reiect this kind of teaching by Images and Pictures Among which Durand saith Ei autem quod dictum est quod Imagines sunt Laicorum literae obuiat illud Euangelij habent Mosen Prophetas The sentence of the Gospell They haue Moses and the Prophets let them heare them is repugnant to that which is spoken by some Images are lay-mens Bookes IESVIT The second is to increase in men that keepe and honor them the loue of God and his Saints which effect S. Chrisostome experienced as he testifieth saying J loloued a Picture of melted waxe full of Pietie And S. Gregorie the Great saith They inflame men that behold them in the loue of their Lord and Sauiour The third is to moue and incite men to the imitation of the vertues of Christ and his Saints which vtilitie S. Basill doth declare and highly esteeme in his Sermon of the fortie Martyres And examples might be brought of men reclaimed by sight of godly Images euen in the 〈◊〉 of sinfull affection The fourth is to stay our thoughts vpon Christ and his passion that our imaginations in prayer may not so easily wander which vse of Images Catholickes in their deuotions do often experience Finally that in his Jmage wee may honour Christ the honour of the Image redounding to the originall and who crowneth the Kings Image honoureth the King whose Image it is saith S. Ambrose In which kind memorable is the deuotion of our victorious and religious King Canutus who tooke the Diademe that he vsed to weare on his owne head and there with crowned an Image of Christ crucified which in his daies was deuoutly reserued in the Church of S. Peter and S. Paul in Winchester and afterwards would neuer haue any crowne come on his head out of humble reuerence to his crucified Lord. ANSWER It is againe to little purpose to examine the places of the Fathers here produced concerning the vtilitie which may follow vpon the visible aspect of Pictures Images for all these testimonies serue only to commend Historicall vse but they prooue not Adoration Also the vtilitie of Images mentioned by them is spoken onely according to their humane opinion But that Images by diuine institution haue such vtilitie or that God Almightie hath promised in his word any such effects and blessings vnto them is not affirmed by the Fathers neither can it be warranted by diuine reuelation S. Ambrose Serm. 10. in Psalm 118. treateth of the liuely Images of God to wit iust persons poore afflicted people the members of Christ these Images he exhorteth vs to honour illustrating his Doctrine by an humane similitude which is He that crowneth the Image of the Emperour honoureth him whose Image he crowneth c. Then he applieth the former similitude saying By honouring the liuely Images of Christ we worship Christ himselfe But speaking of dead Statues and Pictures he addeth Gentiles lignum adorant quia Dei Imaginem putant sed inuisibilis Dei Imago non in 〈◊〉 est quod videtur Gentiles adore wood thinking it the Image of God but the Image of the inuisible God is in that which is inuisible and not in it which is seene As for your storie of Canutus the first Danish king raigning in England wherewith you close vp your question of Images you name no Author that so we might haue examined the qualitie of Canutus his action and if the same happened according to your report yet it is not antient because it was a thousand yeeres and more after Christ Neither is the consequence necessarie that because he placed his Crowne vpon an Image of the Crucifixe therefore he worshipped the Image for Iacob powred oyle vpon the top of a Pillar Gen. 28.18 yet his Oblation was made onely to the Deitie and not to the Pillar Lastly Let it be obserued that our Aduersarie hath manifested wonderous weakenesse in this Romish Article concerning worship of Images for he hath not throughout his whole disputation produced one plaine Text of holy Scripture or one cleare sentence of Antiquitie proouing the necessitie or lawfulnesse of Iconolatrie Wherefore I conclude that this doctrine is destitute of all diuine authoritie written or vnwritten and consequently that they are impostors which impose the same as a necessarie dutie vpon the Church of Christ. The Second and Third Point PRAYINGS AND OFFERING OBLATIONS TO THE B. Virgin MARY WORSHIPPING AND Inuocation
belong to the substance of this Mysterie and cannot be called in question without danger of misbeleefe First the Reall presence of the whole Bodie of Christ vnder the formes of bread Secondly that this is done by Transubstantiation ANSWER Whatsoeuer is certainely reuealed in holy Scripture concerning the manner of Christs Presence in the Sacrament must be beleeued and not denied and so much is reuealed as is sufficient to inable the Minister people to vnderstand by Faith that Christs word and promise saying This is my bodie are infalliblie true and alwayes fulfilled when his Ordinance is obserued But Christ affirmeth not that the shapes of bread and wine are his Bodie and Blood neither that he is present by carnall vnion of his naturall Bodie and Blood with the formes or accidents of the Elements or that his Bodie and Blood are present in the holy Eucharist by Transubstantiation IESVIT §. 1. That the Reall presence of the whole Bodie of Christ vnder the formes of Bread belongs to the substance of the Mysterie TO prooue this I suppose as certaine that the Bodie of Christ is truely and really in the Sacrament of his Supper This I may iustly suppose seeing your Maiestie doth professe to hold a presence of the Body of Christ in the Sacrament no lesse true than we hold and consequently you will not vnderstand the words of Christ figuratiuely as Sacramentaries doe for they make the Body of Christ present in the Eucharisticall Bread but as in a figure holding not a true nor a reall presence but onely a presence by imagination and conceit as is euident ANSVVER Reall presence is taken two wayes First for a true and effectuall presence of the body and blood of Christ so as man receiuing the externall signes by his naturall parts receiueth also the thing signified and presented by the action of his spirituall facultie to wit by an operatiue faith Ioh. 6.51.53 54 55 56 57. Secondly for a corporall presence when the thing signified and presented is according to the naturall substance thereof contayned vnder the shapes of the outward signes and together with them conueyed into the mouth stomacke and bodily parts His most excellent Maiestie and all his Orthodoxall people beleeue reall presence according to the first acceptation but the fame is denyed according to the latter acceptation The Iesuit being ignorant of this distinction or else dissembling the same disputeth as followeth They which hold a reall presence of Christs body no lesse true than Papists themselues hold cannot vnderstand the words of Christ This is my body c. figuratiuely But his Maiestie holdeth a reall presence of Christs body no lesse true than Papists themselues hold Ergo His Maiestie cannot vnderstand the words of Christ This is my body figuratiuely I answer The Maior of the former argument is denyed for a true reall and effectuall presence of Christs body and blood may bee taught and deliuered by a figuratiue speech for First the mysticall head is really truely and effectually present to the mysticall body and yet notwithstanding this presence is taught in holy Scripture by figuratiue words Read Psal. 45. Salomons song Eph. 5. Ioh. 15. Secondly one part of our Sauiours words about the Sacrament to wit This cup is the new Testament in my blood Luc. 22.20 is figuratiue by confession of Romists themselues and yet they hold the thing expressed and meant by those words to be really giuen It is false therefore which the Iesuit and his consorts affirme That Protestants expounding the words of Christ This is my body figuratiuely doe by this sence ouerthrow the true presence of Christs body and bloud in the holy Eucharist and bring in onely a fantasticall and imaginarie presence for a mysticall Presence wrought by the power of the holy Ghost is as reall and true a presence in one kind as a corporall and carnall presence is in another kind But the Romists themselues are the men which contending for their carnall Presence giue vs a fantasticall body of Christ in stead of a true and naturall body and Phantasticall Elements to wit Accidents and emptie shadowes of Elements in stead of the substantiall creatures of Bread and Wine by this absurd doctrine vtterly subuerting the holy Sacrament IESVIT Wherein as your Maiestie knowes they contradict the antient Church which teacheth expresly That Christ did not say this is a figure of my body but this is my body and exhorts vs to beleeue Christ on his word he said This is my body I pray you let vs beleeue him whom we haue beleeued veritie cannot vtter vntruth and herein acknowledge with your Maiestie a most high and incomprehensible Mysterie which were no Mysterie at all the words being vnderstood in a meere figuratiue sence ANSWER The question is not Whether Christ vttered these words or not This is my body This cup is the new Testament in my bloud Neither is there any doubt of the veritie of our Sauiours speech or whether we must beleeue his word or not to which purpose Gaudentius speaketh but the question is concerning the sence of the words to wit whether This is my body This cup is the new Testament in my blood are to be expounded literally Arguments for the negatiue part are these which follow First if the substance of Bread and Wine be deliuered in the Eucharist our Aduersarie will grant that the words are figuratiue because one indiuiduall substance cannot be predicated of another properly But it shall be prooued in the sections following both out of Scripture and Fathers that the substance of Bread and Wine are deliuered in the holy Eucharist Secondly the words whereby the wine is consecrated Luc. 22.20 are tropicall by the confession of our Aduersaries Thirdly if the words be taken properly then the body of Christ and the bloud of Christ are deliuered and receiued without the soule and deitie of Christ for in proprietie of speech the body is a distinct and diuers thing from the soule and likewise the blood Fourthly that which Christ deliuered to bee eaten and drunke by his Disciples he did sacramentally eate and drinke himselfe Luc. 22.15 as S. Hierome S. Chrysostome Euthymius with many Schoole-men affirme But if the words be litterally vnderstood then he did eat his owne body and drinke his owne blood Fiftly if the words be vnderstood literally then Christ gaue his passible and mortall body to the Disciples but I trow no Iesuit will maintaine that a body mortall and passible can be in many Hosts or mouths at once neither can the same be corporally eaten without sensible touching and feeling thereof or diuiding one part thereof from another Sixtly if our Sauiours words be literally expounded then Infidells dogges and swine may eate the flesh and drinke the bloud of the Sonne of man but all that eate the flesh and drinke the bloud of the Sonne of man haue
enough not spared to say That what the B. would not acknowledge in this cause you would wring and extort from him then indeed you said as before that it had erred And this no man denyed But euerie Error denyes not Christ the Foundation or makes Christ denie it or thrust it from the Foundation F. The B. said That the Error was not in Point fundamentall B. The B. was not so peremptorie His speech was That diuers learned men and some of your owne were of opinion That as the Greekes expressed themselues it was a Question not simply Fundamentall The B. knowes and acknowledges that Error of denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne to be a grieuous Error in Diuinitie And sure it would haue grated the Foundation if they had so denyed the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne as that they had made an inequalitie betweene the Persons But since their forme of speech is That the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father by the Sonne and is the Spirit of the Sonne without making any difference in the consubstantialitie of the Persons the B. dares not denie them to be a true Church for this though he confesses them an erroneous Church in this particular Now that diuers learned men were of opinion That à Filio per Filium in the sense of the Greeke Church was but a Question in modo loquendi in manner of speech and therefore not fundamentall is euident The Master and his Schollers agree vpon it The Greekes saith hee confesse the holy Ghost to be the Spirit of the Sonne with the Apostle Galat. 4. and the Spirit of Truth S. Ioh. 16. And since Non est aliud It is not another thing to say The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Father and the Sonne then that he is or proceeds from the Father and the Sonne in this they seeme to agree with vs in eandem Fidei Sententiam vpon the same Sentence of Faith though they differ in words Now in this cause where the words differ but the sentence of Faith is the same 〈◊〉 eadem euen altogether the same Can the Point be fundamentall You may make them no Church as Bellarmine doth and so denie them saluation which cannot be had out of the true Church but the B. dares not It ought to be no easie thing to condemne a man of Heresie in foundation of Faith much lesse a Church least of all so ample and large a Church as the Greeke especially so as to make them no Church Heauen Gates were not so easily shut against multitudes when S. Peter wore the Keyes at his owne Girdle And it is good counsaile which Alphonsus à Castro one of your owne giues Let them consider that pronounce easily of Heresie how easie it is for themselues to erre Or if you will pronounce consider what it is that seperates from the Church simply and not in part onely I must needs professe that I wish heartily as well as others that those distressed men whose Crosse is heauie alreadie had beene more plainely and moderately dealt withall though they thinke a diuerse thing from vs than they haue beene by the Church of Rome But hereupon you say you were forced F. Whereupon I was forced to repeat what I had formerly brought against Dr. White concerning Points Fundamentall B. Hereupon it is true that you read a large discourse out of a Booke printed which you said was yours The particulars all of them at the least the B. tells me he doth not now remember and is sure he did not then approoue But if they be such as were formerly brought against 〈◊〉 White they are by him formerly answered The first thing you did was the righting of S. Augustine Which Sentence the B. doth not at all remember was so much as named in the third Conference much lesse was it stood vpon and then righted by you Another place of S. Augustine indeed was which you omit but the place of it comes after about Tradition to which I remit it But you tell vs of a great proofe made out of this place These words containe two Propositions One That all Points defined by the Church are Fundamentall The other That this is prooued out of this place of S. Augustine 1. For the first That all Points defined by the Church are Fundamentall It was not the least meanes by which Rome grew to her Greatnesse to blast euerie Opposer shee had with the name of Heretike or Schismatike for this serued to shriuell the credit of the persons and the persons once brought into contempt and ignominie all the good they desired in the Church fell to dust for want of creditable persons to backe and support it To make this proceeding good in these later yeeres this course it seemes was taken The Schoole that must maintaine and so they doe That all Points defined by the Church are thereby Fundamentall necessarie to be beleeued of the substance of the Faith and that though it be determined quite Extra Scripturam And then leaue the wise and actiue heads to take order that there be strength enough readie to determine what is fittest for them But since these men distinguish not nor you betweene the Church in generall and a Generall Councell which is but her Representation for determinations of the Faith the B. though he be very slow in sifting or opposing what is concluded by lawfull generall and consenting Authoritie though hee giue as much as can be giuen to the definitions of Councels truly generall nay suppose hee should graunt which hee doth not That Generall Councels cannot erre yet this cannot downe with him That all Points euen so defined are Fundamentall For Deductions are not prime and Natiue Principles nor are Superstructures Foundations That which is a Foundation for all cannot be one and another in different Christians for then it could be no constant Rule for any nor could the soules of men rest vpon a shaking Foundation No If it be a true Foundation it must be common to all and firme vnder all in which sense the Articles of Christian Faith are Fundamentall And Irenaeus layes this for a ground That the whole Church howsoeuer dispersed in place speakes this with one mouth Hee which among the Guides of the Church is best able to speake vtters no more than this and lesse than this the most simple doth not vtter Therefore the Creed of which hee speakes is a common is a constant Foundation and an Explicite Faith must be of this in them which haue the vse of Reason for both Guides and simple people all the Church vtter this Now many things are defined by the Church which are but Deductions out of this which suppose them deduced right mooue farre from the Foundation without which Deductions explicitely beleeued many millions of Christians goe to Heauen and cannot therefore be Fundamentall in the Faith True
iustifie their departure How could he say this since he did not graunt that they did depart There is difference betweene departure and causelesse thrusting from you for out of the Church is not in your power to thrust vs Thinke on that And so much the B. said expressely then That which the B. did ingenuously confesse was this That Corruption in Manners onely is no sufficient cause to make a seperation in the Church Nor is it It is a truth agreed on by the Fathers and receiued by Diuines of all sorts saue by the Cathari to whom came the Donatist and the Anabaptist against which Caluin disputes it strongly And Saint Augustine is plaine There are bad Fish in the Net of the Lord from which there must be euer a seperation in heart and in manners but a corporall seperation must be expected at the Sea shore that is the end of the World And the best Fish that are must not teare and breake the Net because the bad are with them And this is as ingenuously confessed for you as by the B. For if Corruption in Manners were a iust cause of actuall seperation of one Church from another in that Catholike Bodie of Christ the Church of Rome hath giuen as great cause as any since as Stapleton graunts there is scarce any sinne that can be thought by man Heresie onely excepted with which that Sea hath not beene foulely stayned especially from eight hundred yeeres after Christ. And he need not except Heresie into which Biel grants it possible the Bishops of that Sea may fall And Stella and Almain grants it freely that some of them did fall and so ceased to be Heads of the Church and left Christ God be thanked at that time of his Vicars Defection to looke to his Cure himselfe F. But saith he beside Corruption of Manners there were also Errors in Doctrine B. This the B. spake indeed And can you prooue that he spake not true in this But the B. added though here againe you are pleased to omit That some of her Errors were dangerous to saluation For it is not euerie light Error in disputable Doctrine and Points of curious Speculation that can be a iust cause of seperation in that admirable Bodie of Christ which is his Church for which he gaue his Naturall Bodie to be rent and torne vpon the Crosse that this Mysticall Bodie of his might be One. And S. Augustine inferres vpon it That he is no way partaker of Diuine Charitie that is an enemie to this Vnitie Now what Errors in Doctrine may giue iust cause of seperation in this Bodie were it neuer so easie to determine as I thinke it is most difficult I would not venture to set it downe least in these times of Discord I might be thought to open a Doore for Schisme which I will neuer doe vnlesse it be to let it out But that there are Errors in Doctrine and some of them such as endanger saluation in the Church of Rome is euident to them that will not shut their eyes The proofe whereof runs through the particular Points that are betweene vs and so it is too long for this discourse which is growne too bigge alreadie F. Which when the generall Church would not reforme it was lawfull for particular Churches to reforme themselues I asked Quo Iudice Did this appeare to be so B. Is it then such a strange thing that a particular Church may reforme it selfe if the generall will not I had thought and doe so still That in point of Reformation of either Manners or Doctrine it is lawfull for the Church since Christ to doe as the Church before Christ did and might doe The Church before Christ consisted of Iewes and Proselytes this Church came to haue a seperation vpon a most vngodly Policie of 〈◊〉 so that it neuer pieced together againe To a Common Councell to reforme all they would not come Was it not lawfull for Iudah to reforme her selfe when Israel would not ioyne Sure it was or else the Prophet deceiues me that sayes exactly Though Israel transgresse yet letnot Iudah sinne And S. Hierome expresses it in this verie patticular sinne of Heresie and Error in Religion Nor can you say that Israel from the time of the seperation was not a Church for there were true Prophets in it Elias and Elizaeus and others and thousands that had not bowed knees to Baal And there was saluation for these which cannot be where there is no Church And God threatens to cast them away to wander among the Nations and be no Congregation no Church therefore he had not yet cast them away into Non Ecclesiam into no Church And they are expressely called the people of the Lord in Iehu's time and so continued long after Nor can you plead that Iudah is your part and the Ten Tribes ours as some of you doe for if that be true you must graunt that the Multitude and greater number is ours And where then is Multitude your numerous Note of the Church But you cannot plead it For certainely if any Calues be set vp they are in Dan and Bethel they are not ours Besides to reforme what is amisse in Doctrine or Manners is as lawfull for a particular Church as it is to publish and promulgate any thing that is Catholike in either And your Question Quo iudice lyes alike against both And yet I thinke it may be prooued that the Church of Rome and that as a particular Church did promulgate an Orthodoxe Truth which was not then Catholikely admitted in the Church namely The Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne If shee erred in this Fact confesse her Error if shee erred not Why may not another Church doe as shee did A learned Schooleman of yours saith she may The Church of Rome needed not to call the Grecians to agree vpon this Truth since the Authoritie of publishing it was in the Church of Rome especially since it is lawfull for euerie particular Church to promulgate that which is Catholike Nor can you say he meanes Catholike as fore-determined by the Church in generall for so this Point when Rome added Filioque to the Creed of a Generall Councell was nor And how the Grecians were vsed in the after Councell such as it was of Florence is not to trouble this Dispute but Catholike stands there for that which is so in the 〈◊〉 of it and fundamentally Nor can you iustly say That the Church of Rome did or might doe this by the Popes Authoritie 〈◊〉 the Church For suppose he haue that and that his Sentence be infallible I say suppose both but I giue neither yet neither his Authoritie nor his 〈◊〉 can belong vnto him as the particular Bishop of that See but as the 〈◊〉 Head of the whole Church And you are all so lodged in this that Bellarmine professes he can neither tell the
whatsoeuer it may now determine into which Error some opposers of the Church of Rome haue fallen And vpon this is grounded your Question Wherein are wee neerer to vnitie if a Councell may erre In relating the B. his Answer to this you are not so candide as you confesse him ingenuous before For his words did not sound as yours seeme to doe That wee should hold with the Councell erre or not erre till another came to reuerse it As if grounds of Faith might varie at the Racket and be cast of each side as a cunning hand might lay them You forget againe omit at least and with what mind you best know the B. his Caution For he said The determination of a Generall Councell erring was to stand in force and haue externall obedience at the least yeelded to it till euidence of Scripture or a demonstration to the contrary made the Error appeare and vntill thereupon another Councell of equall Authoritie did reuerse it Thus then the B. But indeed he might haue returned vpon you againe If a Generall Councell not confirmed by the Pope may erre which you affirme To what end then a Generall Councell And you may answere Yes for although a Generall Councell may erre yet the Pope as Head of the Church cannot An excellent meanes of vnitie to haue all in the Church as the Pope will haue it what euer Scripture say or the Church thinke And then I pray to what end a Generall Councell Will his Holinesse be so holy as to confirme a Generall Councell if it determine against him I for my part am willing a little to consider hereupon the point of Generall Councels How they may or may not erre and a little to looke into the Romane and Protestant opinion concerning them which is more agreeable to the Power and Rule which Christ hath left in his Church and which is most preseruatiue of Peace established or ablest to reduce vnitie into the Church of Christ when that poore Ship hath her Ribs dashed in 〈◊〉 by the Waues of Contention And this Consideration I will venture to the World but onely in the Nature of a 〈◊〉 and with submission to my Mother the Church of England and the Mother of vs all the Vniuersall Catholike Church of Christ. 1. First then I consider Whether all the Power that an Oecumenicall Councell hath to determine and all the Assistance it hath not to erre in that determination it hath it not all from the Catholike vniuersall Bodie of the Church or Clergie in the Church if you will whose Representatiue it is It seemes it hath For the gouernment of the Church being not Monarchicall but as Christ is Head this Principle is 〈◊〉 in nature Euerie Bodie collectiue that represents receiues Power and Priuiledges from that Bodie which is represented else a Representation might haue force without the thing it represents which cannot be So no Power in the Councell no Assistance but what is in and to the Church But yet then it may be questioned Whether the Representing Bodie hath all the power strength and priuiledge which the Represented hath And suppose it hath all the Legall power yet it hath not all the Naturall eyther of strength or wisedome that the whole hath Now because tho Representatiue hath power from the whole and the maine 〈◊〉 can meet no other way therefore the Acts 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 of the Representatiue be it Ecclesiasticall or Ciuile are binding in their strength But they are not so certaine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from 〈◊〉 as that Wisedome which resides in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Assemblies meerely Ciuile or Ecclesiasticall all 〈◊〉 men cannot be in the Bodie that represents And it is possible so many able and sufficient men for some particular businesse may be out as that they which are in may misse or mis-apply that Reason and Ground vpon which the determination is principally to rest Here for want of a cleare view of this Ground the Representatiue Bodie erres whereas the Represented by vertue of these Members may hold the Principle vnuiolated 2. Secondly I consider That since it is thus in Nature and in Ciuile Bodies if it be not so in Ecclesiasticall too some reason must be giuen why For that Bodie also consists of men Those men neyther all equall in their perfections of Knowledge and Iudgement whether acquired by Industrie or rooted in nature or infused by God Not all equall nor any one of them perfect and absolute or freed from passion and humane infirmities Nor doth their meeting together make them infallible in all things though the Act which is hammered out by many together must in reason be perfecter than that which is but the Child of one mans sufficiencie If then a Generall Councell haue no ground of not erring from the men or the meeting either it must not be at all or be by some assistance and power vpon them when they are so met together And this if it be lesse than the assistance of the Holy Ghost it cannot make them secure against Error 3. Thirdly I consider That the assistance of the Holy Ghost is without Error that 's no question and as little there is that a Councell hath it But the doubt that troubles is Whether all assistance of the Holy Ghost be affoorded in such a high manner as to cause all the Definitions of a Councell in matters fundamentall in the Faith and in remote Deductions from it to be alike infallible The Romanists to prooue there is infallible assistance produce some places of Scripture but no one of them inferres much lesse enforces an infallibilitie The places which Stapleton there rests vpon are these I will send you the Spirit of Truth which will lead you into all Truth And This Spirit shall abide with you for euer And Behold I am with you vnto the end of the World To these others adde The founding of the Church vpon the Rocke against which the Gates of Hell shall not preuaile And Christs prayer for S. Peter That his Faith faile not 1. For the first which is Leading into all Truth and that for euer All is not alwayes vniuersally taken in Scripture nor is it here simply for All Truth for then a Generall Councell could no more erre in matter of Fact than in matter of Faith in which yet your selues graunt it may erre But into All Truth is a limited All into All Truth absolutely necessarie to saluation And this when they suffer themselues to be led by the blessed Spirit by the Word of God And all Truth which Christ had before at least fundamentally deliuered vnto them Hee shall receiue of mine and shew it vnto you And againe Hee shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance which I haue told you And for this necessarie Truth too the Apostles receiued this promise not for themselues and a Councell but for themselues and the whole Catholike
of the Pope infallible nay more infallible than it For any Generall Councell may erre with you if the Pope confirme it not So belike this Infallibilitie rests not in the Representatiue Bodie the Councell nor in the whole Bodie the Church but in your Head of the Church the Pope of Rome Now the B. may aske you To what end such a trouble for a Generall Councell Or wherein are wee neerer to Vnitie if the Pope confirme it not You answere though not in the Conference yet elsewhere That the Pope erres not especially 〈◊〉 Sentence in a Generall Councell And why especially Doth the deliberation of a Councell helpe any thing to the Conclusion Surely no for you hold the Conclusion Propheticall the meanes fallible and fallible Deliberations cannot aduance to a Propheticke Conclusion And iust as the Councell is in Stapletons iudgement for the Definition and the Proofes so is the Pope in the iudgement of Melch Canus and them which followed him Propheticall in the Conclusion The Councell then is called but onely in effect to heare the Pope giue his Sentence in more State Else what meanes this of Stapleton The Pope by a Councell ioyned vnto him acquires no new Power or Authoritie or certaintie in iudging no more than a Head is the wiser by ioyning the offices of the rest of the members to it than it is without them Or this of Bellarmine That all the firmenesse and infallibilitie of a Generall Councell is onely from the Pope not partly from the Pope and partly from the Councell So belike the Presence is necessarie not the Assistance Which Opinion is the most groundlesse and worthlesse that euer offered to take possession of the Christian Church And I am persuaded many learned men among your selues scorne it at the very heart You professe after That you hold nothing against your Conscience I must euer wonder much how that can be true since you hold this of the Popes Infallibilitie especially by being Propheticall in the Conclusion If this be true Why doe you not lay all your strength together all of your whole Societie and make this one Proposition euident All Controuersies about matter of Faith are ended and without anie great trouble to the Christian World if you can make this good Till then this shame will follow you infallibly and eternally That you should make the Pope a meere man Principium Fidei a Principle of Faith and make the mouth of Christs Vicar sole Iudge both of his Word be it neuer so manifest and of his Church be shee neuer so learned and carefull of his Truth The Conference growes to an end and I must meet it againe ere wee part For you say F. After this we all rising the doubting Person asked the B. Whether shee might be saued in the Romane Faith Hee answered Shee might B. What Not one Answere perfectly related The Bishops Answere to this was generall for the ignorant that could not discerne the Errors of that Church so they held the Foundation and conformed themselues to a Religious life But why doe you not speake out what the B. added in this particular That it must needs goe harder with the doubting partie euen in point of Saluation because the said partie had beene brought to vnderstand verie much in these controuerted Causes of Religion And a man that comes to know much had need carefully bethinke himselfe that hee oppose not knowne Truth against the Church that made him a Christian. For Saluation may be in the Church of Rome and yet they not find it that make sure of it F. I bad the Person doubting marke that B. This Answer I am sure troubles not you But it seemes you would faine haue it lay a Load of Enuie vpon the B. that you professe you bad the doubting partie so carefully Marke that Well you bad the said person Marke that For what For some great matter or for some new Not for some new sure For the Protestants haue euer beene readie for Truth and in Charitie to graunt as much as might be And therefore from the beginning many learned men graunted this So that you need not haue put such a serious Marke that vpon the speech of the B. as if none before him had or none but hee would speake it And if your Marke that were not for some new matter was it for some great Yes sure it was For what greater than Saluation But then I pray Marke this too That Might be saued graunts but a Possibilitie no sure or safe way to Saluation The Possibilitie I thinke cannot be denyed the Ignorants especially because they hold the Foundation and suruey not the Building And the Foundation can deceiue no man that rests vpon it But a secure way they cannot goe that hold with such corruptions when they know them Now whether it be wisedome in such a point as Saluation is to forsake a Church in the which the ground of Saluation is firme to follow a Church in which it is possible one may be saued but verie probable one may doe worse if he looke not well to the Foundation iudge yee I am sure S. Augustine thought it was not and iudged it a great sinne in point of Saluation for a man to preferre incerta certis incertainties and naked possibilitiesbefore an euident and certaine course And you your selues in the point of condignitie of Merit write it and preach it boysterously to the people but are content to die renouncing the condignitie of all your owne Merits and trust to Christs If you will not venture to die as you liue liue and beleeue in time as you meane to die And one thing more because you bid Marke this let me remember to tell for the benefit of others Vpon this verie Point That wee acknowledge an honest ignorant Papist may be saued you and your like worke vpon the aduantage of our Charitie and your owne want of it to abuse the weake For thus I am told you worke vpon them You see the Protestants at least manie of them confesse there may be Saluation in our Church wee absolutely denie there is Saluation in theirs therefore it is safer to come to ours than to stay in theirs to be where almost all graunt saluation than where the greater part of the World denie it This Argument is verie preuayling with men that cannot weigh it and with women especially that are put in feare by violent though causelesse denying Heauen vnto them But it is stronger in the cunning than the true force of it For all Arguments are verie moouing that lay their ground vpon the Aduersaries Confession especially if it be confessed and auouched to be true But if you would speake truly and say Manie Protestants indeed confesse there is Saluation possible to be attained in the Romane Church but yet the Errors of that Church are so manie and some such as weaken the Foundation that it is verie hard to goe that way to
c. Hanc Catholicam fidem extra quam nemo saluus esse 〈◊〉 c. b Sentent Card. Baron sup excom venetorum b Gretsar Def. Bellarm. d. verb. Dei pag. 1713. Regula non dicit id esse Traditionem Apostolicam quod vniuersa Ecclesia semper omni tempore credidit sed quod tota Ecclesia Papa cum Concilio vel sine Concilio Colloq Ratisbon p. 35. credit amplectitur in presenti a Sixt. 〈◊〉 Biblioth Ep. Dedicat ad Piū 5. Deinde expurgari emaculari curasti omnia Catholicorū Scriptorum ac precipue veterum patrum scripta Haereti corum nostrae aetatis foecibus contaminata venenis 〈◊〉 In the summe of the Conference before his Maiestie pa. 〈◊〉 a Summe Confer at Hampton Court Ianuar. 14. 1603. pag. 75. This being his constant resolution That no Church ought further to seperate it selfe from the Church of Rome either in Doctrine or Ceremonie than she had departed from herselfe when she was in her flourishing and best estate and from Christ her Lord Head b Aug. d. Bapt. c. Donat. li. 6. ca. 44. Ipsi Gentiles si quid diuinum rectum c. Orig sup Exod. Hom. 11. Basil. Hexam Hom. 5. Clem. Alexand. Strom. li. 1. c Symb. Othonis Imp. pax cum hominibus cum vitijs bellum d There is difference betweene the Mother-church which fignifieth a Church out of whose wombe all other Churches issue and a Mother-Church which as Turtullian calleth Matrices Ecclesias importeth not fingularitie of One Holy c. but only Veritie and Prioritie before others whereof it was a Mother e Gratian. Dist. 12. ca. 1. Non decet à capite membra discedere sed iuxta sacrae Scripturae testimonium omnia membra caput sequantur Nulli vero dubium est quod Apostolica Ecclesia mater est omnium Ecclesiarum à cuius vos regulis nullatenus conuenit deuiare sicut Dei filius venit facere voluntatem patris sic vos voluntatem vestrae impleatis matris quae est Ecclesia cuius caput vt praedictum est Romana existit Ecclesia a Theod. Hist. Eccles. lib. 5. cap. 9. Matris omnium 〈◊〉 Hierosolomitanae reuerendistimum Dei 〈◊〉 Cyrillum Episcopum esse vobis significamus b Sarisbur Policrat li. 6. ca. 24. c Espenc Digres in 1. Timoth. li. 1. ca. 11. Fides ex diuini verbi auditu Ro. 10. Vbi ergo id nec legitur nec auditur fidem perire ac labefactari necesse est 〈◊〉 hodie 〈◊〉 dolor omnib ' fere locis cernimus vt ad tempora propinquare videamur de quib ' Dominus putas filius hominis veniens fidem inueniet super terram August tr 3. in ep Ioh. Est mater Ecclesia vbera eius duo testamenta Scripturarum diuinarum c. d Iren. li. 3. ca. 19. 〈◊〉 d. fid Orthod c. Arian c. 1. Vt Gypsum aqua permixtum lac colore mentitur ita per verisimilem confessionem Traditio inimica suggeritur e Espenceus in 2. Timoth. 4. digr 21. pa. 150. 151. sup 1. Tim. digress lib. 1. ca. 11. Maiores nostri tanta licet quanta nos erga sanctos deuotione iustum tamen non putarunt tot sanctorum gestarecitari vt legi non possint sacra vtriusquè Testam volumina Facilius Augiae Stabulum quam talibus fabellis c. Ludouic Viues lib. 2. d. corrupt artium in fine Ib. li. 5. f Nauar. Enchir. ca. 11. n. 6. In vniuersa Repub. Christiana tanta est circa haec 〈◊〉 dia vt multos passim inuenias nihil magis in particulari explicite de hijs rebus credere quam Ethnicum quendam Philosophum sola vnius Dei naturali cognitione 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉 d. vnit Eccles. cap. 3. Non audiamus hec dico haec dicis sed audiam ' haec dicit Domin ' Sunt certi libri dominici quorū authoritati vtriquè consentimus vtrique credimus vtriquè seruimus ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam ibi discutiam ' causam nostram Ibid. Auserantur illa de medio quae aduersus nos inuicem nō ex diuinis Canonicis libris sed aliunde recitam ' Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis Ecclesiam demonstrari Ib. ca. 16. Ecclesiam suam demonstrent si possunt non in sermonibus rumoribus Afrorum non in concilijs Episcoporum suorum c. sed in praescripto legis c. in ipsius Pastoris vocib ' c. hoc est in omnibus Canonicis sanctorum librorum authoritatibus b Canus loc Theolog. li. 11. ca. 4. Praetèr Authores sacros nullus Historicus certus esse potest c. Horant loc lib. 5. cap. 3. Gillius d. Deo sacr Doctr. li. 1. tr 7. ca. 15. August d. Ciuit. Dei li. 18. ca. 38. 40. li. 21. ca. 6. c Read a late Treatise touching the visibilitie of the 〈◊〉 Sect. 15. pa. 68.69 how Papists burned the workes of 〈◊〉 and others which were opposite to them d The Storie of Pope 〈◊〉 affirmed at least by thirtie Popish Historians and other Doctors and of late stifly opposed by other Papals Vid. Ioan. Wolph memorabil An. Dom. 854. 〈◊〉 loc 〈◊〉 5. d. Ecclesia sect 197. And by the Storie touching Pope 〈◊〉 who is affirmed to haue beene an Hereticke by antient Historie and by many Papals yet the same is stifly contradicted by Modernes Albertus Pighius Bellarmine Baronius Andradius c. e Bellarm. d. Concil li. 1. ca. 2. Libri ipsi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 conseruati sunt multis vitijs scatent c. Espenc sup 1. Timoth. Digress li. 1. ca. 11. pag. 223. Argumentum est conciliorum acta non vbiquè integra esse f Paramo d. Orig. Inquisit lib. 3. d. pontif author in Temporal q. 1. Opinio 1. num 95. pag. 436. Nec curandum est de opinione historia Eusebij cum ab Ecclesia sit reprobara vt inquit Gelasius d. 15. c. Sancta Romana vel eo quià Arrianus Arrianorum protector fuit c. g 〈◊〉 Anal. tom 1. praefat Idem Anno 395. n. 41. anno 400. n. 42. Idem Anno 774. n. 10.12.13 〈◊〉 Anno 996. n. 54. Idem An. 1048. num 1. h Bannes 22. quest 1. ar 10. pa. 58. Et certè 〈◊〉 est quod post 900. 〈◊〉 Albertus Pighius inuenerit testes illos falsarios 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉 d. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 273. 〈◊〉 Resp. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 5. pag. 140. Nequè enim patres censentur cum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quod ab Ecclesia 〈◊〉 acceperunt vel scribunt vel docent 〈◊〉 Mus. Comment Rom. c. 14. Ego vt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 plus vni 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 crederem in hijs quae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tangunt quam mille 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Gregorijs c. pa. 606. 〈◊〉 Prier li. d. Mod. Inquir Reg. 6. Dimitte Doctores doctores esse Ecclesiam 〈◊〉 necesse est illi possunt errare Ecclesia non potest errare b 〈◊〉 Dialog pa. 1. lib. 4. ca. 9. lib. 5. cap. 7. 〈◊〉 Arms.