was yet with you that all things must needs be fullfilled which are written in the lawe of Moyses and the prophets and the psalmes of me then he opened their vnderstanding that they might vnderstand the scriptures and he said vnto them that so it is written and so it behoued Christ to suffer and to rise againe the third daie from the dead and penance to be preached in his name and remission of sinnes to all Nations begining at Ierusalem I neede not adde any more for by this is aboundantlie showne that the Christian Church was by the intentiō of God the Father and of his sonne Iesus Christ to be in the communion of all Natiōs and Catholique in this positiue sense and that all this infalliblie was to be and would be fullfilled And thus much noe Iewe nor Christian turne about which waie he will can denie 7· Now further least one should foolishlie conceaue that in the primitiue tyme it had gotten to this amplitude fullie and then decaied I proceede and shewe that the same Church is vniuerfall for tyme likewise and indeed this tergiuersation might be refuted by experience because the world knowes that many Nations came into the Church since that tyme which is S. Augustines argument against the Donatists who thought by that meanes to deceaue the Catholiques and delude their arguments of vniuersalitie but here I will prooue it by Scripture And first I might vrge to this purpose the testimonies allreadie cited both because the extent of the Church vnto all Nations doth consequentlie reach vnto all tymes Perpetuitie all Nations and people being not at one tyme conuerted and Christian as allso because some doe expresse a perpetuitie but the Scripture being full I will adde more God the Father in the Psalmes speaking of his sonne amongst other things saith Psal 88. v. 28.29.37 38 I will put him as the first begotten high aboue the kings of the earth and I will keepe my mercie vnto him foreuer and my testament faithfull vnto him I will put his seede for euer and euer and his throne as the daies of heauen c. His seede shall continue for euer and his throne as the sunne in my sight and as the moone perfect foreuer Isa 62. v. 3 4. And of the Church thou shalt be a crowne of glorie in the hād of our Lord and a diademe of a kingdome in the hand of thy God thou shalt be no more called Forsaken and thy land shall be no more called Desolate but thou shalt be called my will in her and thy land inhabited because it hath well pleased our Lord in thee and thy land shall be inhabited I will make a league of peace to them an euerlasting couenant shall be to them Ezech. 37. v. 26.27.28 and I will forme them and will giue my sanctification in the middest of them foreuer and my tabernacle shall be in them and I will be their God and they shall be my people and the Gentiles shall knowe that I am the Lord the Sanctifier of Israel when my sanctification shall be in the middest of them for euer The God of heauen will raise vp a kingdome Dan. 2. v. 44. that shall not be dissipated for euer and this kingdome shall not be deliuered to an other people and it shall breake in peeces and shall consume all those kingdomes and it selfe shall stand for euer To which the newe Testamēt doth consent Luk. 1. v. 33 Mat. 16. v. 19. he Christ shall raigne in the house of Iacob for euer and of his kingdome there shall be noe end Vppon this rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it 28. v. 20. I am with you all daies euen to the consummation of the world Ioh. 14. v. 15 I will aske my father and he will giue you another paraclete that he may abide S. Aug. de vnit Eccl. c. 13. Mat. 13. v. 30. with you foreuer c. The like is in many other places amongst which S. Augustine doth vrge that of S. Matthew let both growe till haruest because our Sauiour doth expound himselfe by the field to haue vnderstoode the world by the good seed the children of that kingdome v. 37. c. by the cockle the children of the wicked one by the haruest the end of the world so that both are to growe vntill then Lastlie that I leaue not the Apostle of the Gentiles out in this busines He Christ gaue some Apostles Ephes 4. v 11.12 and some Prophets and other some Euangelists and other some Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saincts vnto the worke of the ministerie vnto the edifying of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all in the Vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God 8. This congregation Vnitie Io. 10.16 or Church notwithstanding the foresaid greatnesse ad extension is but one being one fold and one bodie vnder one Pastor and one head Iesus Christ Ephes 4 v. 16. of whome saith the Apostle the whole bodie compact and knit together by all iuncture of subministration according to the operation into the measure of euerie member maketh the increase of the bodie vnto the edifying of it selfe in Charitie By which words wee are taught likewise that this bodie is heterogeneall that is See more of this in the 3. Book 6 c consisting of diuers kinds of parts as mans bodie is whereunto this mysticall bodie is compared hauing in it eies mouth feete and the like in proportion 1. Cor. 12 which may be vnderstoode more fullie out of the Epistle of the same Apostle to the Corinthians 9. And thus farre I haue proceeded in the Scripture shewing you there the Church of God built on a rocke against which the gates of hell cannot preuaile a perpetuall kingdome if you beleeue God that shall not be dissipated corrupted deliuered to another people that shall stand for euer shall haue no end a people that shall be no more forsaken no more desolate They shall haue the Spirit with them abiding with them not departing from them and Iesus Christ with them all dayes to the consummation of the world and the Sanctification of God in the middest of them for euer Into their communion shall come the streingth of Nations the multitude of the sea all kings and people and tongues all the families of the Gentiles all Nations what soeuer They shall be dilated to the East West North and South and shall be multiplied as the dust of the earth as the sand of the Sea as the starres in heauen They shall be as the sunne in the sight of God and as the daies of heauen They shall haue pastors and Doctors to the worlds end the word of God shall neuer out of their mouthes and thy shall not hold their peace daie nor night for euer 10. Compare this now to your Church to your companie which wee haue searched and
to good which caÌ„ be from no bad cause the prophecies of the old and newe Testament and whatsoeuer els learned men vse to bringe to this purpose And taking in this collection all that which is distinct from the increated authoritie of allmightie God I call it the condition circumstance or application of the formall obiect which formall obiect is the diuine veritie reuealing Further I must not goe because the diuine veritie is infinite and therfore able to moue any vnderstanding and the circumstances are beyond all exceptioÌ„ to warrant the prudeÌ„ce of my choise I haue vsed some Schoole termes in this answeare but you must pardon me for it is a Schoole point as you knowe and fit for Schollers onelie 92. A fourth exception is that you seeke the will of God more sincerely and therefore enioy the assistance which wee doe not because wee relie onely on men This argument is allreadie answeared in effect wee depend on men proposing and as instrumentall or ministeriall causes vnder Iesus Christ the greate Pastor And sure the Apostles on whome the primitiue Church depended were men allso But principallie wee depend on Iesus Christ and the holie Ghost assisting in aÌ„d by the Church For your sincere seeking of the truth it is a friuolous pretense since you do not take the meanes by God ordained to finde it Iesus Christ hath left it in the Church and if you would finde it you should looke it there Your pretence of prayer and the guift of interpretation and conference of places are trickes onelie to delude fooles for all wise meÌ„ knowe that Christ hath bestowed all helpes necessary vppon the Church and that in the Church are the power of interpretation and sanctitie and generallie all the guifts of the holy Ghost Wherefore you are first to prooue that you are the Church before you challenge the Spirit and his guifts till then wee number you amoÌ„ge those who come in at the windowe to rob and steale the soules out of men and indeuour allso as much as lies in you to rob the Church of God of her endowments 93. For the sanctitie of our Church wherewith you would equall yours I remitte you to Baronius Martyrologe and desire to see the like catalogue from your holie number But who knowes not that it is proper to the Catholique Church to breede Saints and that thence are those which out of all Nations tribes and tongues are chosen to raigne with Iesê° Christ Yet are not all in this Church truelie Saincts there are degrees of incorpotion and vnion to the heade and members Some are vnited by faith and charitie some by faith and exterior communion but want Charitie and they haue some kinde of motioÌ„ and influence from Christ the heade for without him none can beleeue a right and they are part of the great mysticall body the Church Yet they want the principall vnion which vnion will be perfect and constant in heauen where the Church shall see the deitie of the sonne of God But here good and bad are mixt yet so that the Church militant shall neuer be without many good and holie men according to the Scripture This is the couenant which I will make with the house of Israel saith our Lord Ierem. 30. v. 33. speaking of the Christian Church I will giue my lawe in their bowells and in the hart of them will write it and will be to them a God and they shall be my people Ezech. 37. v 27. And in Ezechiel I will giue my sanctification in the middest of them for euer 94. If you aske me whether the Church may be said to sinne since there be sinners in the Church I answeare no. If any sinne it is not by meanes of the Church but contrarie to her direction and Spirit And if any erre it is not by her meanes but contrarie to her Spirit and proposition So that neither the sinne nor the errour of particular men can iustlie be attributed vnto the Church since they worke not in those cases by the common iudgment and direction of the Church but by their owne priuate apprehensions and affections contrary to the Churches will and rule As when one in a well-instituted common-wealth doth secretlie steale and murder it is his priuate action it is not the action of the common wealth but flatlie against the will and lawes of it This onely I will note in this matter that euery mortall sinne doth not destroy all incorporatioÌ„ and therefore a man may be in mortall sinne and yet in the Church for he which beleeueth doth participate some kinde of life though imperfect as I said before Neither is it necessarie that in each part all vitall powers be for a mans foote doth participate life but cannot see nor heare nor imagine as doth the heade 95. In the next place insteede of an argumeÌ„t I note your vanitie in heaping things together to winne the vulgar Your silken discourses vnles they be flowred with histories of Popes Friars and Monkes are not gaudie and therefore this embrodery must not be wanting I will not loose tyme to rehearse the particulars but in generall answeare thus First if amonge twelue Apostles pict out by our Sauiour Iesus Christ one was naught and proued an Apostata it can be no meruaile if amonge more then two hundred Popes elected by men some fewe did amisse Neither can their faults preiudice Papall authoritie aÌ„d the generall doctrine of the Church or redound vnto it more then did the Apostasie of Iudas preiudice Apostolicall power and christianitie or redound vnto the rest You should haue considered rather that many Bishops of the Roman See are knowne Saincts 96. I answeare secondlie for Friars that their rule is good holie and beyond all iust exception and therefore if any not conforming themselues to this rule by weaknes faile and liue amisse the profession is no more to be coÌ„demned for it then is Christianitie for the wicked conuersation of many that professe it And the stories of Friars which you haue are but fewe some dozen peraduenture were they a thousand the matter were not greate whereas in all the Catholique world are Friars And touching Monkes it is the same their Rule is holie and their conuersation such as crownes and scepters haue ben left for to learne it 33. milliaÌ„ AbbatiaruÌ„ 14. millia Prioratuum Genebr an 524. Ordinis Praedicatorum feruntur fuisse 4143. coenobia id an 1216. Franciscanorum suo tempore 90. millia fuisse scribit Sabellicus Ennead dec 9. l. 9. their institution hath bred many Saincts and their Order hath ben so genenerally spred that they haue had many thousand monasteries at a time Among so many to haue happened a few disorders is no wonder but to thinke that your stories put case they were in parte true which is not worth examination can preiudice the rule and institution is very childish 97. Of Catholiques in generall I haue spokeÌ„ all readie they were not all saincts
you beleeue not this how do you beleeue the Reall Presence how do you beleeue the words of Iesus Christ saying of the Sacrament in his hād this is my body and of the Chalice Mat. 26. v. 27.28 this is my bloode if that thing were his body thē was his body in the shape of breade and at once in diuers places If you say that thing was not his body you contradict him you do not reallie beleeue the presence to the signes I doe not say to your imagination but to the signes this reallie you beleeue not 34. As for your oppositions they are sent backe with this answere that nature indeede cannot effect those things they are out of the spheare of her actiuitie but the power of God is infinite and the things in them selues include no contradiction wherefore God can effect them And being grounded in his word wee beleeue them without more adoe Man is not able with his wit to discouer all the wayes of God or to comprehend the whole obiect of his power Our knowledge wee gather from those fewe things wee see or perceaue by some exteriour sēse ād the perfection of allmightie God is infinitelie aboue all this He knoweth more then wee doe and being truth by nature cannot lie wherefore if he tell vs any thing though wee vnderstand it not wee must beleeue it Faith is an argumēt of things not appearing Heb. 11. that in the Deitie be three persons each distinct reallie from the other two yet all reallie the same God is a greate mysterie it is obscure our vnderstanding cannot reach it but faith giuing creditte vnto God who saith it is so doth beleeue it that our Sauiour is the secōd person in this holie Trinitie cōsubstātiall to God the Father is a Mysterie which nature wonders at yet faith beleeues this too because God who cannot deceaue or be deceaued doth auouch it Wee trust his knowledge and take his word Nature is Gods worke she hath not the perfection of her maker and therefore must not compare and equall her selfe with him in vnderstanding or cast an imputation of Errour on all that is not within the circuite of her acquaintaince God knowes more then she doth and therefore she may learne Schollers that are ingenuouse beleeue their Masters ād so come to knowledge whereas those who beleeue nothing are euer rude and vnlearned A Scholler heareth his Master say the Sūne is bigger then the Earth and beleeuing falls to learne the demonstration The clowne takes measure of the obiect with his eies Stellat primae magnitudinis cēties septuagies maiores terrâ asserūt Astronomi and esteeming it no bigger then the Cheese he cutte yesterdaie when he came from plough will not beleeue the philosophers nor the Mathematicians nor all the bookes in the world before his owne eies not he no that he won not Wee are in the Schoole of Religion our Professors and Instructors are the Pastors vnder our great Master Iesus Christ who cleerly doth see the truth of all he doth auouch You rudely take measure of things as in your sillie imagination they appeare making sensible things there or the short knowledge you haue of them the rule and compasse of all Being so denying in effect that God is able to doe any thing further then you can direct him as if in your heade were as much Art as God hath and your knowledge the full compasse and direction of Gods omnipotence 35. But what is the thing you stumble at Substance of it selfe is not determined to place it hath this determinatiō by accidents by Quantitie Localitie Vbication If God bestowe on it supernaturallie two Sacramentall Vbications at once it is at once in two places Sacramentallie if a thousand it is in a thousand places Sacramētall Existencie whatsoeuer it be called as Vbicatiō Presence or by what other name you will is an Accident and this Accident is the formall reason or cause of being present vnder the dimensiōs in the roome of Breade It is supernaturall to the body and God hath power to produce many of these at once 36. You replie that the very same thing cannot without contradiction be at once present in many dimensions without being deuided This is false the thing may haue indiuiduation or vnitie in it selfe and by it selfe and yet be in many dimensiōs too The soule of man is one and indiuisible and yet in the dimensions of all the members of the body That which is in the heade is in the feete not a peece for the soule hath no peeces it is indiuisible but it is all in each part God is heere and in heauen too and yet not deuided though betwixt this place and heauen there be many other things 37. Againe you replie that the same bodie cannot be at once in many mouthes But why not if it be at once in many dimensions The foule an indiuisible thing is naturallie at once in many members it is at once in the heade hands feete fingers and toes and in each member all ād this without any contradictiō or diuision why thē may not God whose power is infinite supernaturallie put one and the same Bodie at once in many mouthes It is no contradiction He may doe it Measure not his power by your witte The thing may be aboue your conceipt no meruaile it is supernaturall The existence of the sowle in many members all is naturall Tell me first how this is done It is in the heade and in the feete yet hath no distance in it selfe It is in manie fingers yet one It is in euerie part of an extended bodie and yet not extended it is in the hart and in the sides in the tongue and in the mouth that is round aboute it it is in the heade that doth compasse the braine and it is within the braine all vnles in your braine peraduenture it be not Shall I now argue out of this that it is within and without and round aboute it selfe if I meant to trouble an vnlearned reader and turne his braine as you doe I would When you haue made him vnderstād these things touching the naturall existence of his sowle he will be able to answere all that you can saie touching the supernaturall existence of the bodie of Iesus Christ in many mouthes and if he doth not yet vnderstand that being naturall no maruaile if he doth not vnderstand this Mysterie it being supernaturall 38. The other peece of your difficultie is that a bodie is naturallie extended and a mās bodie fills a greate place therefore it cannot be within that little roome I answere that substance of it selfe fills no place but by an Accident called Situall extension or Localitie as by it selfe it is not visible but by ā Accidēt Colour These Accidēts are distinct from the Substance they are not Substance If God take away the Colour or will not let it mooue the eie the substance is not seene if God take away the Localitie
allmightie God But it is true that all the people in the world are thus obliged as I prooue by the words of our Sauiour in sainct Marke Going into the world preach the Gospell to all creatures Mar. 16. v. 15.16 he that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued but he that beleeueth not shall be condemned Out of this argument followeth yet further that the Church cannot erre in any thing of faith whether it be fundamentall or not fundamentall incurable or curable great or little for the people are to beleeue that which the Church doth teach and thus God doth warrant in the place here alleaged and therfore it appertaines vnto his prouidēce to assist and protect the Church so that it neuer teach errour in steede of Gods word 14. The seauenth argument I make out of the iudgment of all Christiās before Luther touching the foresaid obligation to beleeue the Church and the diuine spirit in it And here I except onelie such as your selfe shall confesse to haue bene Heretiques and proceede thus Generall Councells did allwayes Arg. 7 beleeue that the Church was to be beleeued and that it had diuine assistance and therfore did accurse all those who beleeued the contrarie to the Church This you know by their acts and canons The people in communion with these Councells did beleeue the same which the Councells did and receaued that which they defined The fathers Saint Augustine Saint Hierome and the rest did the same And the same did all the predestinate who liued in the communion of the Church takinge their instruction from the mouth of the Church and beleeuing as the Church did which is further manifest because those are damned who beleeued not the Church as hath bene prooued in the former argument out of Sauiours words since therfore the predestinate are saued it remaines vndeniable that they did beleeue the Church 15. And here because you some tymes when you haue dronke to much of the cuppe of selfe loue do thinke that you entertaine the holie Ghost better then any of our religion haue done especiallie since you last were in heauen and read your name there in the booke of life I oppose spiritte vnto spiritte I oppose vnto you the knowne Saints of our Religion both late and ancient and obiect vnto you the Spiritte which was in them You haue there Saint Thomas of Aquine Sainct Bonauenture Saint Francis Sainct Dominicke Sainct Charles Boromeus Sainct Xauerius and others whose sanctitie God by miraculous workes and signes hath diuulged Among the auncient you haue the holie fathers and Martyres it were longe to repeate their names here You haue the martyrologe of Baronius there are thousands of them and the places where they liued consult his notes thereunto if you doubt of any And now I argue thus All true Christians in all ages euen from the Apostles tyme did euer rest in the iudgmēt of the Church as infallible beleeuīg what was in the Church before them vniuersallie beleeued ād condemning for Heretiques all those which before were vniuersallie condemned for such And this commō principle descēded through all ages so that whatsoeuer was vniuersallie taught by the pastors as matter of faith was receaued vniuersallie by the people and was approued by the generall iudgment of the Church of God and of her spiritte This I would haue you to consider well and marke againe that the communion of Gods elect was in this multitude which is further manifest first because this onelie is the true Church of God and they were all of the true Church Secondlie by those infinite miracles whereby God hath as it were with a seale confirmed their course of life and blessed end ād thirdlie because the communion of all holie fathers whose sanctitie you acknowledge and of infinite Martyrs putte to death for profession of Christianitie hath bene openlie with and in this Church 16. I prooue the same assistance eightlie by the testimonie of Sainct Paul Apostle and Master of the Gētiles a rule you knowe must Arg. 8 be right and a rule of faith free from errour This you are readie to admitte and to interprete of the Scripture the word of God I graunt is right but there are difficulties which it is which is all what is the sense of diuers places as all knowe by the controuersies now adaies Wee looke therfore for a liuing rule or iudge and certaine proponent of Gods word and meaning Such a rule the Apostle directeth vs vnto ā exteriour visible perpetuall rule to be followed by Christian people and this if it be proposed by God to be followed is infallible by his protection and assistance will you heare the Apostles words He Christ gaue some Apostles and some Prophets and other some Euangelists and other some pastors Ephes 4.11 12.13.14 and Doctors to the consummation of the Saincts to the worck of ministerie vnto the edifying of the body of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God into a perfect mā into the measure of the age of the fullnes of Christ that now wee be not children wauering and caried aboute with euerie winde of doctrine in the wickednes of men to the circumuention of errour Marke in this chapter of S. Paule how many things are defined against you and your fellowes First the perpetuitie of the Church in that he saith God gaue some pastors and Doctors vntill wee all meete in the vnitie of faith Secondlie the perpetuall visibilitie of it in that these pastors are building all the tyme and that they are Apostles Pastors Doctors whose office is visible and doth manifest their persōs to the flocke thirdlie the infallibilitie of the Church is explicated by the end of the foresaid perpetuall ministerie which is that wee be not wauering Among those the Apostle speakes of you I hope include the predestinate who therfore you see depend vppon exteriour certain cōmon ād in a word Catholique propositiō of the faith a litle before you haue the vnitie of this bodie and of the Spiritte of it and after followes the varietie of functions in this one visible bodie of Iesus Christ including the elect as I haue noted before The words are Doing the truth in Charitie let vs in all things grow in him which is the head Christ 〈◊〉 15.16 of whome the whole bodie being compact and knit togeather by all iuncture of subministration according to the operation in the measure of euery member maketh the increase of the bodie vnto the edifying of it selfe in Charitie Reflect or all this and tell me whether in this Bodie be Gods elect or no whether it be visible or inuisible whether it be many bodies or one bodie and whether this body be the true Church of Christ wherof he is the head 17. But now let vs to our argument againe Sainct Paule teacheth in this Chapter that God hath prouided continuall visible meanes to keepe men from errour therfore these meanes
this bodie one whereof visible men are members and Predestinate allso members of the same then are there not two Churches of Christ one visible the other inuisible Now it is most certaine by the testimonie of holie Scripture that the Church is the mysticall bodie of Christ ād that this mysticall bodie is but one wherein are visible and predestinated persons therefore there are not two Churches of Christ one visible the other inuisible two bodies one visible the other inuisible but all appertaine to one bodie and one Church I confirme this out of S. Paul who in his Epistle the Ephesians saith that God the Father hath made Christ the heade ouer all the Church which is his bodie Ephes 1. v 22.23 Ch. 4. v. 13. In this Church the Apostle saith Christ put Apostles pastors c. till wee all meete into the vnitie of faith which is till the end of the world Chap. 2.19 Ch. 1. v. 13. and in the same Church are the citizens of the Saincts the domesticalls of God Those which are signed with the holie Ghost of promise which is the pledge of our inheritance in fine the predestinate and S. Paul himselfe was in this Church This one bodie therefore had these two attributs to wit it was visible for hauing in it intrinsecallie and for euer publike persons Pastors Doctors it might thereby be seene and heard and it had in it the predestinate which you call inuisible men whence it followes that visible and inuisible in that sense leaue it still as it was one bodie 105. Fiftlie our greate Pastors fould is one not two as your distinction makes it He hath one fould and that is visible For the Church of God is visible as I haue manifestlie declared before and to this fould his predestinate are all brought out of what Nation out of what part of the world soeuer Other sheepe I haue that are not of this fold a fould wherein the Apostles were Iohn 10.16 men visible to the whole world and wherein their successors are men allso visible thē allso I must bringe ād they shall heare my voice and there shall be made one fould and one Pastor Heere by the testimonie of Iesus Christ the fould the Church is one away then with your distinction beleeue one as wee doe which is visible in which the predestinate people are 106. And indeede where should one looke for our Sauiours Schollers but in his Schoole where should wee looke for Gods domesticalls but in his howse where should wee looke for his members but in his body where should wee looke for holie people for predestinate for Saincts but in the Church And therefore hauing demonstrated before which is the Church this labour might haue bene spared For as I answeared of the Spirit that you should not challenge him till you had prooued that yours was the Church a taske vnpossible so now I may answeare of holie people of predestinate of Saints that you do not callenge any till you haue prooued which you will not doe as longe as God is God that yours is the Church 107. It is verily a ridiculous thing to see what Churches you frame in your imagination One full of words euer preaching all mouth but without Spirit without hart without sowle The other full of the Protestant Spirit but silent and ashamed of her owne doctrine in so much that for a thousand yeeres together she was dombe a church without a mouth The mouth and hart you knowe are both parts of one man the hart is within and is not seene but by the mouth in the mouth it doth shewe it self in what forme it pleaseth to affect The Church too hath hart and mouth hart to beleeue to loue God and mouth to praise inuoake and professe him These make not two Churches they are two parts of one God hath promised these two to one and the same Church his spirit is allwayes in her hart and his words allwayes in her mouth I will aske my Father and he will giue you an other Paraclete Io 14 v. 15 16.17 that he may abide which you for euer the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receaue because it seeth him not nor knoweth him But you knowe him because he shall abide with you and shall be in you Thus our Sauiour to his Apostles publike ād visible persons and in them to the visible Church Isay 59.21 Rom. 10. v. 9.10 My spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c for euer If thou confesse with thy mouth our Lord Iesus and in thy hart beleeue that God hath raised him vp from the deade thou shalt be saued for with the hart wee beleeue vnto iustice but with the mouth confession is made to Saluation Gods Church therefore hath both hart and mouth in her hart she hath Gods Spirit in her mouth his word and these are not two Churches but one Church 108. Neither doth predestination make it inuisible as childishly you imagine The predestinatiō it selfe indeede is inuisible vnto vs it is Gods purpose and decree and therefore is in God as mans purposes are in the mind of man and those purposes euen in men are secret and hidden till the men reueale them But the predestinated as I said before are as visible as other men So was S. Peeter S. Paul and the rest of the Apostles the Martyres of Iesus Christ were visible otherwise how could they haue bene tortured as they were The Doctors were visible S. Ierome and S. Augustine were knowne farre and neere ād to come neerer to our tyme S. Francis S. Thomas of Aquin S. Bonauenture S. Charles Boromeus were visible yet predestinate whereby it is most euident that predestination doth not make men inuisible they may be publike persons and knowne to all the world and predestinate allso And so may the Church be both predestinate and visible too And is so though euery man in the Church be not predestinate some are there more then number as in a mans body there are some parts superfluous which will not be resumed in the resurrection as I said in the former booke and these parts are like the rest they communicate with the rest they beleeue as the rest but they doe not perseuer as the rest Now which those are that will perseuere finallie which will not God hath reserued as a secret vnto himselfe He hath not as yet made any secretarie coppie out of the booke of life The sanctitie of some in all tymes he makes knowne for the example and encouragmēt and confirmation of others by such signes as he pleaseth such as you reade in the liues of Saincts penned by saincts allso by S. Athanasius S. Ierome S. Augustine S. Gregorie of Nice S. Gregorie the greate S. Bede S. Bernard S. Bonauenture and others who in their workes haue related diuers wōderfull things of holie men and this is a further argument
onelie who first made it it was not Oecumenicall The other Obediences of Gregorie and Bennet vnited them selues afterwards One in the 14. Session Act. Conc. the other in the 22. and the Church thus vnited a Pope was chosen so that the Councell now that is after the Vnion of all Obediences and Election of the Pope was Oecumenicall and therfore what was now decreed anew or approued though peÌ„ned before was therby made Oecumenicall If therefore you can make it euident that the Councell and Pope at this tyme did approoue the decree before made I will admitte that it is Oecumenicall and beleeue it Neither is there any reason I doe so before this appeares because decrees take their force from the approbation of those which haue authoritie and not allwayes from the writer or conceauer In Parlament a constitution may be conceaued in the lower howse and agreed oÌ„ there yet hath it not the true nature of a lawe till it passe the vpper howse and allso be confirmed by the Kinge So likewise this constitution conceaued and agreed on first by Iohns Obedience or adherents hath not the nature and force of an Oecumenicall decree till it passe the Generall Councell wherein the whole Church is vnited and allso be confirmed by the Pope 23. That wee may see further the weaknes of your argument since you cannot make it euident that the Canon made at Constance in the fourth Session was thus generallie receaued and approued by the Councell when all Obediences were vnited and there ratified by the Pope Let vs freelie and out of curtesie suppose it had bene so and that the Pope were bound to obay the decrees of such a Councell in the things which the canon speakes of and further that in power it were Superiour vnto the Pope all this would coÌ„sist with the words of the other Councell and both might be true These two propositions A Councell perfectlie Oecumenicall and by the power of the See Apostolique approoued I doe not atteÌ„d what the Councell was when the Canon was conceaued but what it was when wee suppose that the Canon was confirmed aÌ„d thereby representing the Church perfectlie and simpliciter as Philosophers speake is aboue the Pope A Councell vnperfectlie Oecumenicall as not being approoued by the Pope nor including his power and consequentlie not representing the Church perfectlie is not aboue the Pope These two propositions I say are not contradictorie nor Opposite and therfore if they were defined wee would beleeue them both 24. If you should aske in that case in whom or in what formallie that power greater theÌ„ the Popes were It would be answeared that it were not preciselie in the Pope nor preciselie in the rest but in the whole consisting of them all as the sowle is not preciselie in the heade nor preciselie in the rest of the bodie but in the whole and compleate bodie consisting of heade shoulders armes hart and other partes in regard whereof as when the bodie is takeÌ„ a sunder and deuided the heade from the shoulders the sowle is in neither of the partes euen so it would be said in that case that if you consider the Pope and the rest of the Councell a part this power were in neither because it is the act the forme and the vertue of the whole or of the Totalitie to speake as the Philosophers doe It would be further answered that such a full Councell had immediatelie the assistance of the All-teaching Spiritte and power to binde and loose and the like by vertue of our Sauiours promise yet so that the Pope alone had power too ouer each in the Church he being in S. Peeter made Pastor of them all In regard of which Institution of our Sauiour all Catholiques agree in this that the Pope is superior to euerie Bisshoppe in the Church 25. Hauing coÌ„pared the Pope being a parte of a full and perfect Oecumenicall CouÌ„cell to the whole bodie or CouÌ„cell wherein he was included as a part in the whole as the heade in a perfect and entire bodie it remaines now that wee deuide this Councell or perfect Bodie againe into two partes by taking the heade from the rest and compare these partes together In this diuision these parts are but two one is the Pope the other are the rest of the Councell which is vnperfect and therefore a parte being without the Pope as a mans bodie without a heade is but an vnperfect bodie and indeed but a part Of the couÌ„cell in this sense the Lateran speakes as the words themselues do conuince euidentlie and it is among all men out of question So that if it were an Oecumenicall decree the cleere sense would be that the Pope were aboue such a Councell and this wee would beleeue Neither were there any contradiction at all in this to saie that one part is in power aboue the other and that the whole is in power aboue either part Reade ouer your Logicke rules examine well the nature of a contradiction marke the termes and you will see that it is true which I doe saie 〈◊〉 you 〈…〉 with any â—â—â—â—â—culties out of Africke it will be easie for you to drowne theÌ„ heere And therefore I conclude the solution of this argument here hauing declared the two propositions which you apprehend as opposite decrees and incite eagerlie one against the other thereby to extenuate the authoritie of Generall Councells to be so farre from the rigour of contradiction that if they were both Decrees and both Oecumenicall of their owne accord they would come together and shake hands THE FIFT CHAPTER Of the Scripture 26. FRom Constance you come to Trent and accuse the Councell held there of two things touching the Scripture the one is addition to the Canon the other the authorization of the vulgar Latin Before I answere I must put you in minde That as you accuse vs for beleeuing some bookes in your iudgment not Canonicall to be the word of God so do others which are in a manner your Masters in Religion and had the first fruites of the protestant Spiritte accuse you for adding to Gods word the Epistle of S. Iames the Reuelation of S. Iohn and other partes whereunto you can giue no reasonable satisfaction vnles you acknowledge an errour in reprehending vs Negat â—â—â— Luth. in praef ad ep Iac. in 1. Pec. 1. Illiâ— praef in Iac. Kem. Exa sess 4 Magd. c. l. 2. c. 4. and subscribe to that which wee knowe to be the truth For I demaund how you prooue against Luther Kemnitius the Centurists and other Lutherans that the Epistle vnder the name of S. Iames is the word of God If you say that you knowe it by testimonie of Antiquitie they will answere that no such thing was then generallie beleeued Eusebius l â— Hist c. 25 â— Hiero. de â—e Viris ilâ—st in Iaâ—obe and will call to witnesse Eusebius S. Hierom and other auncient writers To answere that you know it by