would I have you â—o grant for Christ himself is the principal vea the onely foundatioÌ„ properly all the Apostles are foundations figuratively among whom was order first second third c and excellencie in graces but not preeminence of auctoritie for they were all sent of Christ as Christ of the Father Ioh. 20. 21 and the church of Christ is builded upon them all not upon Peter onely Ephes. 2. 20. S. Peters headship you say derogates not from Christ Jesus our head since S. Peter is but subordinated to Christ Jesus and onely of his free institution That institution say I is yet to shew wherby Peter should be head more then the other Apostles The headship which you giue unto Peter dooth derogate from Christ for as the church is but one body and hath but one spirit so hath it but one Lord head Christ who is present with his Church all dayes till the worlds end walking amids the golden candlestiks of his Churches that there needs no universal Vicar but onely the Angels of every particular church as the 7. churches in Asia shew Apoc. 2. 3. But he was a head of your church and therfore I trow could not lye which sayd that Christ placed Peter as it were a certayn head to powr his gifts from him as it were into all the body for having taken him into the fellowship of the indivisible vnitie he would have him named that which himself was And elsewhere the same Pope preacheth that if God would have any thing to be commune unto other Princes with Peter he never gave but by him whatsoever he gave to others Thus rored the Lion of Rome against the Lion of the tribe of Iudah What marvel was it then though an other of your Popes praying to S. Peter as to his God sayd Jurline thine ears o blessed Peter prince of th'Apostles and hear me thy servant c. acknowledging further his faith to be in him If these things derogate not from Christ our head I know not what can doo It is no marvel though one of your Canonists called him Our Lord God the Pope for the Pope is Peter as Father Campian telleth us and Peter as Leo sayth is assumed into the fellowship of the indivisible vnitie that is of God and therfore is made a God and prayed unto as a God and yet you would bear men in hand nothing is derogated froÌ„ God or Christ. Yea your self in your former writing made him the vniversal pastor Ioh. 10 and he I am sure is God for he is one with the Father And if Peter was but subordinate as you say to Christ your Popes I trow be now superordinate for Christs kingdom was not of this world neyther did his servants fight he was no Judge or divider of inheritances but Popes are fighters with the tâ—poral sword and have their kingdome of this world as politik princes and divide not onely private mens inheritances but even whole kingdoms deposing Princes disturbing States as the world hath long felt with greef From Peters primacie you slide along to the Popes supremacie for which having no word of God nor any so ancient testimonie as the Apostles you flee to the name of the council of Nice where some say the foundation began But against such innovation when or whersoever it was hatched I allege the whole new testament of Christ where Angels and Bishops of Churches are found of equal auctoritie not one above an other And me thinks I could fetch your popes supremacie from more ancient ground then the council of Nice even from Dioâ—rephes who loved preeminence in the Apostles time But this ground is slabby and the Pope I know wil be loth to set his foot on it You proceed therfore with a generall reason thus The ecclesiastical hierarchie is no worse governed then any temporal regiment For it is compared to a kingdome governed by one King Mat 25 to a familie wel governed Heb. 3. to a camp wel ordered Caâ—t 6. But in al wel ordered common weales there is ever required some visible iudge besides the written law since there must be a supreme iudge to take notice of controversies when they arise aâ— 2. there must be one to explicate the sense of the law and to pronounce sentence c. and 3. there must be one to compell those that refuse to the due observation thereof Now in the church there arise like difficulties in her lawes explication c. Therfore S Peters successor indued by the holy ghost in all difficulties of moment is to be sought unto for counsell is to be heard with obedience when he counselleth is to be obeyed when he proceeds with his powrful jurisdiction This your reason is faultie from head to foot The first part faileth in comparing togither a visible humane politie and a visible hierarchie Wheras humane polities concerning worldly matters are merely visible earthly temporal but ecclesiastical polities are partly invisible heavenly and eternal Those respecting this world and life onely have worldly dominion and glorie these respecting chiefly the next world life have no worldly dominion or glorie but is for the meek poor persecuted for righteousnes sake c. Mat. 5. My kingdome sayth Christ is not of this world Ioh. 18. 36. Again the rulers of the gentils have domination over them they that are great exercise auctoritie over them but it shal not be so among you c. Mat. 20 25 26. These things being thus minded distinguished I grant that the church is no worse governed considering the nature thereof then any temporall regiment considering the nature of it Secondly you fail in applying to your Pope the scriptures intended of Christ onely For he not the Vicar of Rome is the King of that one kingdom Mat. 25. he is the master of that one familie Heb. 3 1 6. he is the Captayn of that ordered camp Cant. 6. Apoc. 19. 11. 13 14 16 c. So that he that challengeth these titles and honours besides Christ is Antichrist To the second part of your reason I answer 1. that in wel ordered coÌ„mon weales the lawes are above the magistrates according to Tullies saying as lawes are above the magistrates so magistrates are above the people What good order may we then think is in the papacie where Popes are above Gods lavv 2. That for explicating the sense of the law c. in wel ordered common weales it is a ruled case that he who made the law should interpret the law According hereunto in the church the lawes given of God in the scriptures are aboue the Pastors that govern the people by them yea above Kings Gods spirit which gave those lawes is the supreme interpreter of them As for outward order in difficulties the Preists lips should preserve knowledge and the people should seek the law
you to keep the foundation of the Apostles Prophets on which Christs church is builded then to build upon the boâ—â—s of after writers To conclude thâ—â—fore this point Christ sendeth us to serch the scriptures his Apostles doo the like the Prophets before spake also to like effect this counsel by Gods grace I shall folow 〈◊〉 these I wil exercise my self not doubting but I have chosen the better part which shall not be taken from me And unto you that â—…zelous for the traditions of your fathers I shew the counsel of the holâ— Châ—st walk not in the ordinances of your fathers transgresâ—e not the coÌ„maÌ„dements of God by your traditions and presume not above that which is written The second thing you take upon you to prove is That the Popes definitive sentence as he is head of the Church is an indeficient rule in matters of faith This position if you well understood it I would not strive against for the definitive sentence of that Papa or Father that is head of the church is I confesse such an indeficient rule But the Vicar of Rome is not this Pope it is Christ himself that is Father of eternitie and he is the head of his body the church and he hath forbidden us to call any man our Pope or Father upon the earth for thâ—r is but one our Father which is in heaven Mat. 23 9. But you understand it of an earthly Pope and head and would confirm it by this scripture Luk. 22 31. Simon Simon loe Satan hath desired you to winnow you as wheat c. but I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not Here first I observe how you labour to confirm the Popes definitive power by the scriptures so that which before you pleaded against as an insufficient grouÌ„d now here you make a ground of grounds and so you are contrary to your self For before you taught me to beleeve this is Gods word because the Pope saith so here you will have me beleeve your Popes sentence to be a rule of faith because the scripture sayth something which you imagine makes for him Thus you would lead me as in a round and I cannot tel what you make the rock of your faith But I wil folow your argument Christ prayed for Simon that his faith upon Satans sifting mought not fayl I grant it neyther did it fayl though he fel greevously Yet this grace made not Simon Pope or Head of the church for it is a grace coÌ„mon to all the elect members of the bodie whom though Satan sifteth and they be often foyled yet rise they again by beleef in God and though their faith often fainteth yet it never faileth or is consumed And this by vertue of Christs prayer or mediation 1. Ioh. â— 1. 2. for Gods gracious gifts are without repentance and Christ giveth all his sheep eternall life and they shall never perish neyther shall any pluck them out of his hand You procede and say that this prayer was consequently for his successors If you mean successors in his office I know not who they be neyther shew you the Popes to be the men If you mean successors in his faith I grant it as before For Peter had the faith of Gods elect as true justifying faith is caled in which faith whosoever succeed or come after him as also they that then lived in like faith with him they were are and shal be by Christs mediation confirmed that their faith which is their life fayl not For example Christ chose 12. Apostles and one of them was a Divil Iscariot who was the Divil fell into syn and Christ prayed not for him so his faith fayled though he coÌ„fessed his syn and he dyed in dispeir hanging himself for he was the Son of losse or perdition and therfore was to be lost that the scripture mought be fulfilled Iohn 17. 12. Simon Cephas fell also into syn above the other ten but he was one of Christs sheep no child of perdition therfore he kept him from being lost praying that his faith mought not fayl And as for him for the rest at an other time he prayed to his father to keep them in his name and not for them alone but for those also which shall beleev in him through their word Wherfore Christ prayed not onely for SimoÌ„ but for all the Saincts though speciall need and use was for him at that time yet as Paul sayth of Abrahams justification it is not written for him onely but also for us so say I of Simons confirmation by the prayer of Christ for whatsoever is written is written for our learning RoÌ„ 15. 4. But you prosequute your argument thus that S. Peter was bidden coÌ„firm his brethren but onely S. Peter and not the church in generall hath brethren Wherupon you would have me gather that this was his special privilege and no mans ells save his successors in the headship Your assumption I withstand as a fallacie proving Peters popedome for confirming his brethren no better then as if you should reason thus Paul sayd to Barnabas let us return and visit our brethren in every citie c. but onely Paul and Barnabas not the church in general have brethreÌ„ therfore onely Paul and Barnabas are Popes of the catholik church and visiters of the same they and their successors If this be not a good reason to prove a supremacie of visitation the other is no better to prove a supremacie of Confirmation For the church in generall is a brotherhood as the Apostle Peter himself calleth it and of this brotherhood Peter was one Paul an other Iohn an other and so the rest not onely the Apostles but all beleevers Wherfore as Simon had brethren so hath every Christian and all are brethren ech to other and all brethren unto Christ. And Peter as he was a joynt elder with the other elders so was he also a joynt brother with the other brethreÌ„ or els he was none of Christs And as for confirming his brethren it is farr from proving a popedome for Paul an other Apostle confirmed his brethren and Timothee an Evangelist did the like and Iudas and Silas being Prophets did the same and all the Angels or ministers of churches are taught of Christ to doo likeweise Wherfore Simons coÌ„mission to confirm his brethren made him not Pope and consequently neyther his supposed successors But you presse the circumstances that our Saviour points out one particular man saying Simon Simon and after having spoken of al particularizeth the speech agayn saying for thee thy faith thy brethren c. I answer there was cause why our Saviour should speak to him thus because in his sifting he should shew more weaknes then the rest and a speciall fore needeth a special medicine But the fore being healed the recured person is as an other man of his
that there is more Majestie in Ecclesiastes then in the Ecclesiasticus How will Luther demonstrate against the whole church that S. James epistle is strawie the epistle to the Hebrewes Apocalyps etc. to be doubted of 40. When I object against you that the Maniâ—hâ—i Montanist Arrian Peâ—agian and all other hereticks will boast of this private spirit Nou answer that I have a mist before my eyes or else I would discerne them I answer I doe distinguish them and leave them 〈◊〉 by the church of God to the pit of hell but not by my private spirit but by the ordinarie meanes the definitions and declarations of the church whose office is to distinguish these spirits infalliblie whose doctrine wee are punctuallie to follow if wee will have in all things this spirit of truth and with one answer I satisfie the multiplicitie of places of scripture he apâ—d vp to no purpose 41. Wheras you would whet the edge of the Jewes sword against mâ— in that they may object against Christians the lawe and the Prophets yea and antiquitie I answer the lawe and Prophets yea antiquitie it self promising our Saviours coÌ„â—ing and fulfilled by his coÌ„ming in each particular cirstumstance prophâ—â—ied and promised doth rebat the edge And I could show out of the 〈◊〉 â—abbines themselves Sâ—hillaes prophecies preaching of S. John Baptist conversion of S Paul the destruction of Jerusalem their â—â—rse and continued dispersion onely to be justly inflicted on them for truâ—â—fying of our Saviour I could shew strange motives of their 〈◊〉 errouâ— Neither can the Jew as you object as we against the â—urk or and Hâ—râ—sie our beginâ—er beginning increase and declyning estate For the Jewes can show our beginner their Messias our beginning he buriall of the cerâ—monial law propheâ—ied and performed by all titles of truth but who can justly shew our declining estate 42. Neyther is the objection of a Jew against a new Christian because he went out of them of such force as our is against Julâ—an or any other Apostata For they cannot defend themselves with any show of truth as we can defend our cause with evident motives of â—râ—dibilitie as I shall hereafter show And Julian might object that Paganismâ— is more ancient then Christianitiâ— but not then the 〈◊〉 law which was compleat and â—erfected as it was prophecied and promised by the coming of the new lawe Where you say Gods word and spirit in the scriptures must be the bulwark I answer a bulwark but not able to defend you from gun shot and a sâ—onse onely for your selves For as yet there was never any of your sects protestant or any other heretitâ— that was able to convert any nation to their religion But men of our religion haue converted all nations doe still convert as well witnesseth both the Judges Japonia yea and Câ—ina it self 43. I showed you one way how the high preisthood did not erre in the condâ—mnation of our Saviour in that the Preisthood was â—â—served in Christ Jesus person True it is the Hipghpreists Scribes Rulers questioned this but their ignorance was most viâ—â—ible by their own lawe and by that lawe he should live since that law declared him to be the sonne of God 44. Against your forced rock and running over many wrâ—sted places of scripture to prove the church of God invisible it were sufficient for me to oppose many evident and clear places of scripture interpreted by the holy fathers Greek and Latin for the pepetuall visibilitie of the church 2. 〈◊〉 â— v 13. 1. Paâ—â—l 22 10. Psal 4â— 17 Psal. 45 5. Psal. 47. 9. Psal. 86. 1. Psal. 88 29 Psal. 101 17. Ps. 128 1. Psal. 131 14. Cant. 3 4. Isa. 9 7. Isa. 33 20. where the perpetual flourishing of the church of God is described Isa. 40 8. Isa. 59 21. Isa. 60 â—9 where it is said the Sun and Moon of the church shall not cease Jer. 6 16. Dan. 2 44. Ose. 2 19. where God is described to espouse eternally his espouse unto him Mich 4 1. wher the church is described to be a high seated mountain to whom all people have recourse Mat. 5 15. where the citie seated on a hil can not be obscured Math 26. 18. where the church is described to be built upon a rock against which hell gates shall not prevaile 28. Math. 2. Our Saviour sayes he will be with his disciples to the end of the world Luâ— 1 32. Luâ— 21. 32. Luk. 22 31. Where Christ sayes he prayed for S Peter that his faith should not fail him Joh. 14. 1â— He sayes the father shall give them another spirit which shall remaine with them eternally John 17 11. Act. 5 38. Ephe. 4 11. yea and the Creed made by the Apostles doth acknowledge the perpetuall flourishing of the church of God I beleeve the catholick church whose generalitie can not stand without visibilitie 45 I answer to your contrarie doctrine that the church of God never since it was a church hath erred If Genes 6. ther was then a church AdaÌ„ the head did err in fact not in doctrine if we should graunt that he did err our adversaries are bound as wel as wee to answer since not onely the visible church then with us but the invisible church with them should have erred But true it is that thers was then no perfect church but onely a materiall and a formall beginning of a church 46. To that of Gen. 6. where all their harts are described to be set on mischeef is not to be understood that all then were naught For not long before Mâ—â—husalem and divers holy men died Sem Jâ—phet also were zealous of Gods honour and their wives also most religious in whom the church of God might be preserved 47. I answer also In the time of Moses Aaron and the people did commit idolatrie in worshipping the golden â—alfe yet Moses the head of all and all the Levites were free from that sinne So that wee read Erod 32. If there be any of God sayes Moses let him joâ—ne with mee and all the sonnes of Levi were gathered vnto him 48. I answer In the time of Judges after Josh. The Israelites are described as though they had sinned al which is an usual figurative speech of Syâ—echdoche of the whole for the part as Exod. 9 6. wher it is sayd all the beasts of Egypt are dead Isa. 2. v. All nations shal flow unto him Phil. 2 21. All men seek their own Ioh. 3. v. 33. And no man did receive his testimonie 49. To that of the Prophet Elias 3. Reg. 19. where Elias complaines that he is left alone I answer that then the people were divided into two kingdomes the one of the Jewes and the other of the Israelites Aâ—hab did govern the Israelites but holy Josaphat did govern the Jewes the one did destroy altars and kill Prophets the other did heare Prophets erect altars And
especiall grace that was given to the Apostles But you cannot denie but that S. 〈◊〉 diverse other Popes that you condemn have been forward in preaching 170. I inferr 8. the preheminence of S. Peter in that the first myracle was doone by him You here more merily then seriously answer that I shall work a second myracle in converting you if from this though graunted by you I could prove him head as wee expound it I answer from most of these congruancies solely by themselves I doe not bring any convinceâ—ng argument but from the whole series of them together I doe convince you since you cannot denie but the Apostle whome our Saviour first names promiseth speciall assistance calls him the rocke first washeth his feet that sitts ever first first in all assemblies speakes doth the first myracles must needs bee head of all the rest or else all these primarie offices should not casually or coÌ„monly happen Since then if you were not through obstinacie hindred you would bee converted I admitt that the first myracle was speaking of tongues Act. 2. 7. 11. but I speake of destâ—â—ce myracles and beneficiall to others and in his first preaching I showed he had preheminence above others 171. 9. I enferred that S. Peter was head in that as supreame judge he condemned the hypocrisie of Ananias and Saphyras 5 of Act. 5. which was the sentence of excommunication by S. Aug. judgment lib. 3. contra epist. Parmeni c. 2â— to 7. And that S. Peter did give the first judiciall excommunication doth it not inferr that he was the head 172. That which you object out of the 1 of Tim. 2. Act. 13. 11. proves that S. Paul excoÌ„municated some but it doth not prove that he exercised that judicial authoritie first therfeor it proves nothing 173. 10. I inferr S. Peters prerogative in that he first discovered Symon Magus coÌ„demned him to which place you make an outroade in objected symonies committed by the Pope when you might ferth your instances nearer home 174. After all these proofes breifly touched and congruencies I inferred thus All these and other circumstances concerning S. Peter showes manifestly that S. Peter had preheminencie above the other of the Apostles that he is rock and head of the church How they have vrged I desire not to bee my owne judge but referr my selfe to the indifferent judgment of the reader 175. And that this preheminence of S. Peter was onely in order I have proved and will hereafter prove The place that you bring 28. of Math. 16. 20 but that particular men are to bee joyned as witnesses and that God heares the congregation of the church praying But that which you bring S. John 20. 21. 22. 23. I could prove that the church of God by the mission of the Apostles remaines for ever That the church is to be heard as Christ himselfe by the reâ—â— parative mission As my Father sends me so I send you I 〈◊〉 inferr preisthood and might from the verse 25 inferr with the holy 〈◊〉 power to forgive sinnes but it is sufficient that your place 〈◊〉 proves nothing and if it be proved ought it were equallitie of 〈◊〉 not of jurisdiction 176. And whereas I inferr a reason in briefe that the legacie of S. Peters primacie was so particularly distinguished that no man can doubt thereof Since his owne old name is specified there Simon his fathers name the sonne of Jonas and his owne imposed name Peter et Cephas you saie you doe not impugne the priviledge of Peter but that I doe impugne the testameÌ„t of the Apostles which I have shewed and shall still show is a great vntruth 177. And that I doe not impugne our Saviour the head of the church when I make our Saviour the head of the church when I make Sainct Peter the ministeriall and subordinate head to him I proved that as God is said to bee our onely Father Mat. 23. 9. And yet it is said that wee have many fathers Christ Jesus is said to bee the foundation 1 Cor. 3. 11. And yet the Apostles are said to bee foundations Ephes. 2. 20. So Christ Jesus 2 Sam. 22. 32. â— Cor. 10. 4 Ephes. 5. 23 he is said to be the rocke and head And S. Basil 1. de paenitentia saies Though Peter bee a rock yet he is not a rocke as Christ For Christ is immovable by himselfe He is the light And the Apostles also are said to bee lights 2 Mat. 5. 14. He is Preist and yet he made Preists 178. When I saie Petros eyther signifies a rocke or a stone you bidde me produce any learned authoritie for it I answer I could produce many But I appeale for this tyme to your owne conscieÌ„ce since Christ spake Mat. 16. in the Syrick language in which there is no difference betwene a rocke or a stone Petrus or Petra Yea though Petrus and Petra differr in termination in the Greek yet they indifferently signifie a rocke or a stone as the protestants translate Ioh. 1. 42. And that S. Peter was still accounted the rock and head of the church appeares by that place of S. August lib. 1. retract â— 21. that you cited against me But I see in conscience you are satisfied of S. Aug. opinion that you are silent And Tertull de prescript Orig. homil 5 in Exodum Stus Cypr. de vnitate Ecclesiae Stus Ambrosius sermone 47. et 68. et lib. 6. in c. 9. Luc. everie one affirming that the church was builded on S. Peter 179. Where I saie that it was Petros in the masculine gender in that the masculine gender was most fittest for a man But that our Saviour the first of Peter 2 8. was named a rock might well bee since all that admitted of his doctrine would never denie but that he was head of the church so there was no need to change the gender as there is here You taxe me that I on Optatus creddit would have Cephas to signifie a head I answer that I doe not remember it and I graunt that I have no â—â—ul in the Spricke language But surely I eyther spoke of the greeke word Cephalos or else intended to show that which is the foundation to a house is in proportion of a head to abodie So that if you graunt that Cephas to signifie a principall stone of a house or rocke it is sufficient to me that so it signifies an head or proportion 180. Whereas being vrged you seem to graunt thâ—â— S. Peter was the mouth of the Apostles I prove still to make against you For eyther he must bee the spokeman or Mr. spring by election still where he speaks first which election of theirs you cannot prove out of scripture that he should as the foreman of the jurie or the speaker in the parlament or else being cheife ever in place and speach he must have it by authoritie given him as I have proved it before 181. You seem to except against my breife
vvord spirit Your own hand writing therefore convinceth you of vntruth not me of bad conscience as you charge me I did and doo cal it a bastard phrase as being of your own or of the Popes begetting for th'Apostle Peter neyther spake nor meant so You add to his vvords and therfore are reproved of God Prov. 30. 6. you swary from your authentik Latin translation and therefore are reproved by your own canon law I proved by the scriptures Ephe. 4. 4. Rom. 12. 4. c. 1 Cor. 12. 4. 8. 9. c. that there is but one spirit which al Gods people have though in divers mesures as mans body hath but one soul or spirit to quicken it This you not being able to deny doo vvind away and except though it be the same fowl yet it worketh otherwise in the head then in the foot etc I answer it is very true You inferr then that so it belongs to the head of the church and not to every craftsman to interpret scriptures Why are ther no members in a mans body between the head and the heels that you make such a leap Is there no mean between the head and every craftsman What place then is there for your Cardinals Bishops Preists Doctors Iesuits c. they are not the head of the church yet you think them higher then the feet But if this your answer be good then though Peter were head as you erroneously think I hope the spirit wrought otherwise in him then it did in that divil incarnate Pope Iohn the 22. and in other your monstrous vvicked Popes as your own friends doo vvitnes against them Then had those beasts a private spirit vvorse then any an honest craftsman then it belonged not to them to interpret scriptures No nor to your Preists and Iesuits unless you vvill make them heads A little after touching Pope Stephen vvho repeled the decrees of his predecessor Pope Formosus you vvould have him to doo this not as the head of the church but out of the violencie of his private spirit I like vvell of your answer and think the very same of all the Popes traditions and therefore the privat spirit vvhich so oft you entwite me vvith I return into your own hands to be kept as the Popes Depositum You pretend that for all the vvickednes of some Popes God hath stil preserved the unity of faith in your church And that never any Pope by his definitive sentence did define heresie I answer if the Pope may be judge as vvith you he is I vvarrant you he vvill never condemn himself of heresie But if Gods word be judge many heresies are easy to be found in your late council of Trent and in many Popes decrees Which vvill come to be scanned in particular doctrines after these generall grounds are ended Your digression to another vvriter I omitt you may seek answer if you please of himself And your author â—o vvhom you send me for satisfaction about your Popes power of dispensations I shall read vvhen I have leysure therto Your 3. Argument you set down now upon your memorie otherweise then ever before thus That which hath still been a rule to theÌ„ that have erred cannot be a certayn rule to direct all in faith But the scripture interpreted by the private spirit as every one pretends given from God hath led many into dangerous and horrible errors go the scriptures though directed by the private spirits interpretation cannot be a rule of faith I answer your conclusion I grant though your argument be naught for the private spirit wee found whileare to be the violent spirit of the Pope or his like And scripture directed or rather perverted by such a spirit cannot in deed be a rule of faith Against your 2. Proposition I except it implieth a fallacie putting that for the cause which is not the cause The scriptures never led any into errour but vnlearned and unstable persons pervert all scriptures as the Apostle sayth unto their own destructioÌ„ the cause hereof is not the scriptures but mens corruption The Pharisees perverted the doctrines spoken by our Saviour Christ himselfe yet I hope you will not deny but his heavenly words was a certayn rule to direct all in faith So the proof of your minor faileth you Against your first proposition which you say is most certayn I except as not playn and so deceitfull That which is a rule to them that err understanding of it own nature and properly cannot be a certayn rule to direct all in faith But now to assume that the scripture is such were blasphemie Agayn That which is a rule to them that err to weet a rule by accident through their ignorance or malice abusing it cannot be a certayn rule to direct al Gods people in faith now I deny the proposition and leave you to give proof of these things in your next And whither before or now you have drie-beaten mee as you boast let the lookers on give verdict Your 4. argument you omit through oversight I suppose onely whâ—r I shewed by 1. Cor. 11. 19. Act. 15. c. that contentions were in the Apostles times and composed by the scriptures not by setting up a supremejudge or Pope Yow answer barely they prove rather theâ— must be one visible supreme judge to decide controversies Wee are thâ—n at a point Let him that readeth the scriptures and reasons which I there alleged judge whither of the two they doo rather prove Your 5. which yow call your 4. argument is that we beleeve many things which are not reveled in holy scripture c. I told yow and tell yow agayne that I doo not howsoever yow may beleeve any thing needful for my salvation which is not reveled in the Holy scriptures neyther wil I use other weapons against Arians Anabaptists or any heretiks that acknowledge the scriptures to be of God This therfore is no argument to convince me at all You insult for that I will not shewe my particular proofs against those heresies I told you this were to digress from our present controversie Propose yow arguments and I will answer you for the cause in hand els multiplie not words in vaine You now plainly answer that Gods vvord as it is extrinsecal the vvord of God and to be knovvn of us depends of tradition and the authoritie of the church This I reject as an heresie For vvhen vve read or hear the books of Moses or the Prophets vve read that vvhich is spoken to us of God Mark. 1â— 26. compared vvith Math. 22 31. that vvhich the Spirit of God speaketh to the churches Rev. 2 â— 11. novv not to beleeve or rest upon this ground but to rely upon mans record is to make the testimony or man greater extrinsecally to us then the testimonie of God contrarie to 1. Ioh. 5 9. and maketh men lyable to the curse Ier. 17. 5. You
may say to him vvhy doe you this and that whosoever obeyes not his precepts incures the syn of idolatrie paganisme You may tell me that the Pope hath not dominion over your faith but your Canonist tel me that he can dispense against the law of God that he can dispense against the law of nature that he can dispense against an Apostle that he can dispense against the new testament yea that he can dispense concerning all the precepts of the old and nevv testament And may vve novv think that he hath not dominion over your saith or may wee think that vvhen he is come which should sit as God in the Temple of God that he wil doe greater things then these But of your Popes preeminence wee are to speak in another place To return therfore to the scripture which you deney to be an indeficient rule of our faith you objected that it had many senses and stil you stand to it as proved well I am content to leave it unto judgement But though it were so yet this is not proved that therfore it is no sure rule of our faith save by your churches exposition For why might not the church in Corinth which were made rich by Christ in all kind of speech and in all knowledge so that they were not destitute of any gift why might not that church I say declare the many senses of scripture as well as the church of Rome Or rather why may not the holy ghost shew any church or any member or Christs church the meanings of the scripture and so it remayn as a firm rule of faith and the Spirit of God the sole authentik expositor of the same But here you urge agayn your bastard phrase falsly fathered upon S. Peter that no prophesie of scripture is made by a private spirits interpretatioÌ„ though I blamed you before for speaking in such sort If you can not perceive heavenly things consider earthly Your one body hath but one spirit which gives life to the vvhole and to every member of the body The same spirit dooth quicken the hand and foot that quickneth the head and hart although a greater measure is in the principal members then in the inferiour Even so by the scriptures we learn that the catholik church is one bodie and hath one spirite and though the many members of this bodie have not one work but have received diversities of giftes yet it is the same spirit To one by the spirit is given the word of vvisdom to an other the word of knowledge by the same spirit and to an other faith by the same spirit and so all the gifts to all the members This is the most publick spirit that the church hath and every member of the church hath the same so there is no privat spirit which Christians have as you by tradition it seemes have learned Now seeing all Christians have the same spirit that the Pope himself unlesse he have the spirit of Satan how is it that he onely must be the publik spirit and interpreter of the word Because say you he is the head of the church and hath the promise of our Saviour that his faith should not fayl him This I deney Now you beleeve it because the Pope himself tells it you for your ovvn privat spirit may assure you of nothing I wil disprove it by your next words and knowen experience For you say he may err in matter of fact and syn aswell as an other man then say I he may goe to the Divil for his facts and synns as vvell as an other man then is he the successor of Iudas Iscariot not of Simon Peter then the gates of hel prevaile against him And thus your Rock is rent in peeces and your building is on the sands You rely upoÌ„ one whom you know not but he may be a reprobate a child of the Divil yea a divil incarnate as Pope Iohn the 23. was found and judged to be by the Council of Constance and then he may lye as well as his father the Divil and then if you take not heed he may murder your soul as well as his father the Divil And how then dare you make him your rock your hope your confidence to beleeve all that he sayth not to beleeve Gods word unlesse he tell you it is Gods word not to beleeve any meaning of the scriptures but as he tell you the meaning is If men were bruite beasts without understanding they could not be more overruled then thus but the Lord sayth be not as the horse and as the mule And if the inhabitants of the earth had not been druncken with the wine of her fornication the great whore could never thus have benummed their senses and bereft them of heavenly light If you deney that your Popes may be reprobates and Heariots though they may syn your own popish records will teach you by as undoubted marks upon them as ever had Cain the dearest lovers of your catholik chaire branding their holy fathers with titles of prodigious wonders monsters for their beastly lives so some of them are knowen to have dyed without repentaÌ„ce or faith in God that eyther they never had faith or els their faith failed and then Christ prayed not for them as he did for Peter so their pretended priviledge lieth in the dust The 15. of the Acts alledged for Peters primacie I have before answered and leav it unto judgment yow urge now againe vers 7. that Pâ—â—er rose up shewing therby that he was head c. a strange collection that if a man rise up to speak in an assembly he must need therfore be head you mought better have gathered so if he had sitten stil spoken for sitting of the two rather argues auctoritie then standing up But tel me I pray you in earnest when Gamaliel is sayd to rise up in the council of the Iewes in Ierusalem would you gather from this that he was the head of them all Or when Paul rose up in the synagogue of Antiochia was he therefore the head If not why dally you thus with the holy scriptures to gather such conclusions as common sense wil not bear But if you would plead for no other headship then this that your Pope may rise up and speak in councils it wil easily be granted but then if others should judge and give sentence froÌ„ the scripture as Iames there did your chair of Rome would soon be overthrown Like weight is in your next words that the first gentils were chosen by his mouth for that you should say God chose that the gentils by his mouth should hear the word of the Gospel and beleev What primacie of power you can build hereon I cannot tell order I am sure ther must be in al things so ther was with them and is with us we grant unto you