all their actions of their offices or vocations Ye conclude not a like M. Stapl. but subtilly and falsely ye alter the state of the conclusion if ye made your argument aright ye should make it thus as the Prince intermedleth not in the seuerall actions of his temporall subiects offices or vocations so he intermedleth not in the seuerall actions of his Ecclesiasticall subiectes offices or vocations This is the right illation of the sâ—…militude and thus it maketh nothing against vs Which you espying in the place of intermedling thrust in gouerning concluding â—…alsely bicause he is no intermedler in the one that therefore he is no gouernour of the other But the â—…urder ye wade in this similitude the more ye labour against the streame For as although the Prince intermedle not with the Fathers the Masters the Schoolemasters the Pilotes seuerall actions in their offices or vocations yet he ought to ouersée that euery one of these and all other his subiects do their owne proper actions belonging to their vocations and offices dutifully yea not onely to make lawes for them all as subiectes but also for their seuerall estates and degrées besides not for him selfe to exercise but for them to worke in their vocations so the Prince beyng likewise gouernour of Ecclesiasticall persons so well as of any other aforesaide although he intermedle not with the seuerall actions of their vocations yet ought he to ouersée them that euery Ecclesiasticall estate do their proper actions dutifully and also to make Lawes and Orders not for him selfe but for them in their degrées and vocations to exercise and obserue the same And thus your similitude euery way maketh quite against you M. Stapl. how be it you will proue it better ye say For the better vnderstanding whereof it is to be knowne that before the comming of Christe Kings were there many but Christian Kings none Many coÌ„mon wealths were there but no Christian common welth nor yet godly coÌ„mon welth properly to speake sauing among the Iewes but cluill and politike The ende and finall respect of the which ciuill common wealth was and is vnder the regiment of some one or moe persons to whome the multitude committed them selfe to be ordered and ruled by to preserue themselues from all inwarde and outwarde iniuries oppressions and enemies and furder to prouide not onely for their safetie and quietnes but for their wealth and abundance and prosperous maintenance also To this ende tendeth and reacheth and no furder the ciuill gouernment And to the preseruation tuition and furderance of this ende chiefly serueth the Prince as the principall and most honorable person of the whole estate whiche thing is common as well to the Heathenishe as to the Christian gouernment Is this all that ye will aforde christian Princes M. Stap. what a heathenish doctrine is this to make Christen princes and Heathen princes gouernment all one What if Christen princes as they haue right good cause beginne to startle at this that ye make their estate no better before God than is the great Turkes And what if one should answere that ye not onely sclaundered reprochfully all the estates of Christendome nowe liuing or that shal be or haue bene since Christes comming but also wickedly deface all the godly Kings and rulers before Christes comming Melchisedeck Dauid Salomon c. beléeuing in Christ to come as Christen Princes now beare the title of Christ already come And yet dare you saie that before the comming of Christ Kinges were there many but Christian kinges none Doâ—… ye dallie on the tytle and name of Christian or meane ye the tytle and effecte of christianitie if ye meane so as ye must néedes meane if ye meane any thing materiall to the purpose ye are very iniurious not onely to those Kings but to their subiects yea to their common weale also And yet ye say further their common wealth was but ciuill and politike and vvente no further than outwarde peace tranquillitie welthe and prosperous maynteinance which is the onely ende of their gouernement and that it reacheth not any iote further What if one should bidde you looke further in the scripture and so ye should finde it stretche somewhat further than to be common with the great Turkes gouernement What if a man should presse you with your owne wordes afterwarde that yet catche it more than one inche further for assisting of the Churche vvith the temporall svvorde which the great Turke the great Chan the Persian Sophie doth not but drawe their swordes agaynst it What if a man should referre this among your contradictions What if he should ioyne another withall that where yet ye confesse the Iewes common vvealth was godly before Christes comming and other common wealthes were not godly and yet the ciuill gouernement of Christian princes reacheth no further than the ciuill gouernement of heathen princes and one finall ende is common to bothe and so eyther the Heathens common vveales were godly also or else the Iewes were vngodly too yea what if the heathens coÌ„mon vveale and heathen Princes fell out to be in better estate of the twayne if only quietnesse vvealth abundance and prosperitie were the onely and finall ende of bothe if ye were well vrged in all these thinges thinke ye M. Stap. these your principles would be able to defende you yea lastly if one woulde denie these your Heathen and Turkishe maximies bring ye any thing to proue them than your owne bare saying that it is to be knovvne But no true Christian knovveth it M Stap. nor will euer acknowledge this which with suche bolde impudencie ye grounde vppon that christian Princes gouernement reacheth no further than ciuill and outvvarde safetie vvealth abundaunce and prosperitie and is common asvvell to heathen as to Christian princes Neuerthelesse M. Stap. taking it for a rolled case and out of question rolleth vp the matter as graunted And as he hath thus determined the boundes of Christian Princes gouernement so as it were by commission from his holy father he descrybeth the Popes kingdome But ouer and besides sayth he yea and aboue this is there an other gouernment instituted and ordeyned by Christ in a spirituall and a mysticall body of such as he graciously calleth to be of his kingdome â–ª which is the kingdome of the faythfull and so consequently of heauen wherevnto christian fayth dothe conduct vs In whiche spirituall body commonly called Christes catholike Church there are other heades and rulers than ciuill Princes as Vicars Parsons Byshops Archbyshops Patriarkes and ouer them al the Pope VVhose gouernement chiefly serueth for the furtherance and encrease of this spirituall kingdome as the ciuill Princes doe for the temporall That there is another mysticall body the kingdome of the faythful directed by an other spiritual gouernement this is a true principle M. Stap. and truer than you wéene or would haue it But as you are deceiued and would deceiue others with the title of that
spirituall Churche so on thys principle you gather a moste false assumption That the heads of this spiritual or mystical body the church of Christ are vicars parsons byshops archbyshops patriarkes and ouer them all the Pope In which assumption ye take for true grauÌ„ted sundry manyfest errors flatly of vs denied chiefly foure The first about the spirituall and mysticall body of christ Wherin ye shew great vnskill not knowing what is ment by the spiritual mystical body For in that respect as there are no ciuil princes emperours kings or quéenes so there ar no Bishops neither no not Greke nor Scythian Gentile nor Iew neither male nor female but all the elect that haue bene are or shall be either in heauen aboue or here dispersed in any parte of the earth without any respect of person are al members and Christ the only head And so M. St. your selfe also call it the kingdome of the faythfull so that if any bishop be vnfaithful he is so far from beeing a head in this misticall corporation that he is no member or any part therof And your selfe confessed before that now theÌ„ your Pope was no good maÌ„ neither therfore vnfaithful hauing not the true liuely effectual faith in Christ as they only haue that be meÌ„bers of this body wherby he is quite excluded froÌ„ it Your first error therfore is in not discerning betwéene the inuisible and visible estate of the Church Secondly taking it as after contrarie to your former sayings ye seeme to expounde it to be the visible estate of the church saying coÌ„moÌ„ly called Christes catholike church then erre ye in that ye say vicars parsons bishops archbyshops and popes be rulers and heades of it For excepting parsons taking them for pastors Bishops the scripture knoweth none of thâ—…se rulers The other titles haue come in since with deanes archâ—…eacoÌ„s abbots priors cardinals patriarches c. although I speake not against the names of theÌ„ no not of the name of Pope neither which béeing well vsed I reueriÌ„ce admit but against the Popish hierarchie proud abuse of them And therfore thirdly where ye say the Pope is ouer them all that he is so ouer all those degrées in your Churche I graunte ye but that he is so ouer those or any other degrées in the true visible Churche of Christ it is but your facing maner to take that for confessed that is chiefly denyed Fourthly that ye affirme the Pope and his Prelates gouernemente chiefly to serue for the furtheraunce and encrease of the Spirituall kyngdome of Chryst where it is euident to the contrarie what hauocke and decrease so muche as they can these Rulers make of the members of Christes Churche to maynteine infidelitie and exautorate the worde and kingdome of Christ thereby M. Stap. now presupposing that the christian Princes gouernement is only outward and for the body and coÌ„mon with the heathen and stretcheth no further and that on the other parte the Pope ouer al and his fleshly chaplens vnder him are the heades and meÌ„bers of the spiritual and mysticall body of Christ nowe he will proue and God before that this gouernement of the pope his chaplaines is far aboue the kings gouernement and that kings he subiect therto Now sayth he as the soule of man incomparably passeth the body so doth this kingdome the other and the rulers of these the rulers of the other And as the body is subiecte to the soule so is the ciuill kingdome to the spirituall His reason is thus The soule or spirite incomparably passeth the body The kings gouernement is onely for the body and the Priests gouernement onely is for the soule and spirite Ergo the Priestes gouernement incomparably passeth the Kinges As this argument is noughte so the conclusion béeing rightly vnderstoode dothe noughte infirme the Princes supreme gouernement ouer all ecclesi causes For thoughe the maior be true the minor is moste false that the kinges gouernement is onely for the body Yea though the spirituall gouernement be onely the Priestes yet the gouernement ouer spirituall matters and matters apperteyning to the soule may still for all that and dothe belong euen ouer the Priests to the Prince Neither dothe M. St. proue the coÌ„trarie or alledge ought for his minor than as we haue heard the foresaide principles of limiting the Princes gouernement to be all one with the Turkes But you might haue done well M. Stap. to haue eâ—…sed your paynes euen here and haue troubled your selfe no further to proue your matter if these your vaine presupposals be such true and vndoubted principles But as though we had alredy graunted them M. St. still goeth on To the which kingdome sayth he as well Princes as other are engrafted by baptisme and become subiects to the same by spirituall generation as we become subiectes to our princes by course and order of natiuitie which is a terrestrial generation The argument is thus As the childe that is borne by a terrestriall generation in the earthly Princes kingdome is subiect to the earthly Prince so euen the Prince being borne againe by spirituall generation is become subiect to the spirituall kingdome But the rulers of the spirituall kingdom are the pope c. Ergo the Prince is become subiect to them Thus fondly still ye reason on your principle in so much that we can say nothing agaynst you But nowe while ye thinke ye may say what ye will sodenly see how ye haue ouerturned these your mightie principles with a trippe of your owne contrarie sayings euen in the same place Furthermore say you as euery man is naturally bounde to defende mainteyne encrease adorne â–ª and amplifie his naturall countrey so is euery man bounde and much more to employ himselfe to his possibilitie towarde the mition and defence furtheranee and amplification of this spiritual kingdome and most of all the princes themselues As such which haue receyued of God more large helpe and facultie toward the same by reason of their great authoritie and temporall sworde to ioyne the same as case requireth with the spirituall sworde Thinke ye this to be true indéede M. St. may we trust you on your wordes then is religion an ende of the Princes gouernment which a little before ye not onely most vntruly denyed but buylded as ye thought iolye arguments therevpon All whiche come nowe downe of themselues with an heaue and hee your selfe pulling awaye the soundation wherevppon they were buylt And nowe ye make an other platforme contrarie to the former which is that Princes moste of all are bounde as those that haue receyued of God more large helpe and facultie towarde the same to employ them selues to their possibilities to these endes to defende mainteyne encrease adorne and amplifie not onely the ciuill peace and prosperitie but much more the spirituall kingdome And ioyne the temporall sworde with the spirituall sworde as the case requireth Upon this as a better platforme than the
life for me he can not be my Disciple much more then must he hate his kingdome and be readie to leaue his kingdome and all the good in the vvorlde for Christe or else hee is no Christian. You say true M. Sanders he must forsake and hate al for Christes sake But that he must do this for your Byshoppes sakes when they will say it is expedient he should so do that I finde not in the words of Christe and yet muste you beware howe you expounde that saying For he is bound also to loue and to kéepe to the vttermost all these thinges in their kindes not to renounce nor hate theÌ„ except they hinder him from Christ whom he must prefer before al things But this loue to Christe in principall maye stande togither with these loues wel inough Neither is he any more bounde to resigne his kingdome than to resigne his vvife into the Priestes hands Nor if he abuse his kingdome the Prieste can no more turne him out of it than he can if he abuse his goods and his vvife turne him not of his dores and take his goodes and his vvife from him and kéepe hir himself or giue hir vnto an other This can not the Byshop do although the Prince and euerie man be bounde to lose al for Christes cause Yea the Byshop is bounde hereto as well as any other And God knowes how some of them kepe this bonde and yet wil not they léese one halfpennie for Christes sake howsoeuer they breake it But the kingdome is a â—…oule moate in their eye and therefore the King poore soule must lose all and they must take it from him But now to Master Saunders other arguments Moreouer the kingdomes of faithfull Princes whose people feare God are not altogether earthly or worldlye For in that part that they haue beleued in Christ they haue as it were lefte to be of this worlde and haue begonne to be members of the eternall kingdome for although the outwarde face of things which is founde in kingdomes meere secular be in a Christian kingdome yet sith the spirite of man is farre the more excellent parte of hym and the whole spirite acknowledgeth Christ his King and onely Lorde I see nothing why Christian kingdomes ought not rather to be Iudged spirituall according to their better part than earthly And this is the cause why nowe long since those which gouerned the people of God were wont to be annoynted of his Ministers no otherwise than were the Prophetes and Priestes For euen the Kings them selues also are after a sort partakers of the spirituall Ministerie when they are annoynted not that they should do those things that are committed to the onely Priestes herevnto orderly consecrated but that those things which other Kings referre to a prophane and worldly ende these Kings should now remember that they oughte to directe to an holye ende For when they themselues are made spirituall it is fitte they should will that all their things should be counted as it were spirituall But nowe are spirituall things so vnder the Church of Christ that the Church may freely dispose and decree of them to the profite of the whole mysticall body Syth therefore the people of Israell woulde needes desire a King to be giuen them Samuel by the commaundement of God toke a cruse of oyle and powred it vpon the heade of Saule and kissed him and sayd beholde God annoynteth thee to be the Prince ouer his inheritaunce VVhich to me seemeth to signifie euen as though it had bene sayde except the Lord annoynted thee to be the Prince thou couldest not rightly and orderly be the Prince ouer hys people whiche hee hathe chosen and reserued out of all the worlde to be as it were peculiar to hymselfe For in that that is gods no man can take power to him selfe without Gods permission But God anoynted Saul to be the Prince not by himselfe but by Samuel his minister wherfore whosoeuer ruleth ouer the Christian people which is no lesse acceptable to God than was the people of the Iewes hee besides the right which he receyueth of God by the consent of the people ought also to acknowledge his power to be of Christe by his Ministers if so be that he be suche an one that worshippeth the Fayth of Christe VVherevpon to thys day all Christian kingdomes are annoynted of some Christian Bishop or some other Minister of God referring therein their principalitie not onely to the people and so vnto God but that moreouer by the Priests of Christ they referre it vnto Christ whose Ministers they are For Pope Leo wrote elegantly vnto Leo the Emperour Thou oughtest to marke stedfastly the Kingly power not onely to bee giuen to thee to the gouernement of the worlde but to be giuen thee chiefly for the succour of the Churche that in suppressing naughtie attemptes thou shouldest bothe defende those things that are well decreed and restore the true peace to those things that are troubled If Maister Saunders woulde goe plainely to woorke and make his argumentes shorte and formall and woulde rather shewe his Logike than his Rethorike the truth or falsehoode woulde appéere the sooner the reader perhappes mighte be the lesse delyghted but withoute perhappes hee shoulde be lesse beguyled and the aunswere mighte bée the clearer and the shorter â—…ll this long argument in effect is this All spirituall things are so vnder the Church of Christ that the Church may freely dispose and decree of them to the prosite of the whole mysticall body All Christian Kings and kingdomes are spirituall things Ergo all Christian Kings and Kingdomes are so vnder the Church of Christ that she maye freely dispose and decree of them to the prosite of the whole mysticall body And firste Maister Saunders trauels in the Minor. To proue Christian Kyngs and Kyngdomes spirituall that bycause the better parte of them is spirituall therefore hée seeth nothyng why they oughte not to bee rather iudged spirituall Yea Kings were woâ—…e to bee annoynted no otherwyse than Prophetes and Priestes not to doe theyr actions but to referre all theyr affayres to holy and spirituall dedes And can you sée this Maister Sanders Now how chance you coulde not seeit before when you made the Christian Princes ciuill power to be no better than the Turkes or Tartars to stretch no furder thaÌ„ to the body a quiet lyfe haue you now espied not onely the endes wherevnto they rule but the estate also itselfe by reason of the better parte to be spirituall what hath made you see so cléerely nowe forsooth now is now and then was then You were pleading then that the Christian Princes ciuill estate was so farre different and vnlike that Princes might not meddle in spirituall matters and therfore then was fitte oportunitie to denie that Christian Princes Ciuill power had any spirituall thing in it But nowe we are in another argument that Priestes maye order and dispose
But the pastors in the Church are as the minde is in the body of man as S. Gregorie Nissene hath noted I answere â–ª First this is but a similitude and therefore conâ—…inceth nothing howe ofte soeuer you alleage it We graunt that the Pastors are as it were the mynde of the Churche in the reasoning and discussing the fayth of Christ the word of God the sacraments and mysteries of Christes Church But againe in the maintenance and setting forth in the ouersight and publike direction in the punishement and correction of the trespasses the Prince is the minde the reason and the head also and a pastor in gods Church too And therefore this belongs not onely to the Bishops But be it the Prince be not the minde and reason whose place is in the head Were the King but as the hart or as the will whose place is in the harte yet as the minde dothe but eyther deuise by inuention or discerne by iudgement or remember by memorie and not assent or dissent like or mislike choose or refuse for that belongeth to the will so the spirituall pastor may deuise holsome remedies or remember the Prince of them or discerne in controuersies betwéen this and that which we denie not But the refusall or receiuing the liking or misliking the bidding or forbidding that lyes in the facultie of the Prince Not that the Prince hath facultie to will euery thing no more than the head may deuise euery thing for both ought to will and deuise onely good things â–ª but that the authoritie to put them in executioÌ„ and willing the members to do them as it procéedes principally next to God from y wil so the setting forth of godly ReligioÌ„ taught by the persuasioÌ„ of the pastor as the reason in the head procéedes principally next to God from the Prince as the will in the hart But nowe as M. Saunders hath for stalled the head for the Priest so if he will not relent the harte to the Prince yet I trust he will be thus good vnto him to compare him at the least to some principall member in the body as to the lightes the lunges the lyuer c. If nowe the lightes the lunges or the liuer be infected by whose infection diuerse others parts of the body would become also infected will the head therefore will the minde or reason byd cut them off and hurâ—…e theÌ„ out of the bodie least they infect the other members were it not an vnreasonable reason that would reason thus to haue those rotten meÌ„bers cut off froÌ„ the body of which remaining it may be feared least they should infect the other members when the cutting them awaye straight killeth all the members both head and hart and all and thus you sée M. Saunders if we shal reason by similitudes howe they make more for vs than for you But similitudes may delight or lighten a matter they are not of force to vrge it But M. Saunders will presse it with stronger arguments Besides this S. Paule by name doth teach that power is giuen to the Churche ouer the goods ouer the bodily things of the faithfull For he persuadeth the Corinthians that if they will nedes go to law they should go to lawe before Christians and not before Ethnikes And bicause it mought be said there were no publike Magistrates or iudges ordayned among the Christians he warneth the faithfull that they should appoynt iudges among themselues and if perhaps there were not wisemen in that kind which notwithstanding was not likely yet at the least they should rather appoint contemptible persons thaÌ„ to go to law before the infidels This place is alleaged before and there is aunswered The drift of it here consistes on this argument The Church hath power ouer the goods and bodyly things of the faithfull But the Pastors are the Church Ergo the pastors haue power ouer the goods and bodily things of the faithfull To the Maior I answere the Churche hath power but a limited power Such power as confoundeth not or taketh away the goods or bodily things of any of the faithfull which are members of the Church Such power as is competent to euery member of the Church to possesse to vse and dispose his owne goods and bodily things according to his priuate or publike calling To the Minor I denie it the pastors are not the Churche but members of the Church and haue power onely ouer such goods and bodily things as belong to theÌ„ And yet in that power that they haue of the proprietie of their own goods they may so little spoyle the Prince of his goods or bodily things that they holde them from the Prince and haue by him the peaceable possession of them For all that power vnder God is from the Prince to theÌ„ to al other Neither the Bishops nor any in the Church nor all the Church together hath power to take the Princes goods or his bodyly things froÌ„ him But M. SauÌ„ders to enforce his argument citeth the sayof S. Paule 1. Cor. 6. In that he would haue Christians go to law if they will nedes go to law before Christians and not before Ethnikes Why M. Saunders are Christian Princes and faithfull Magistrates no better with you than Ethnikes and are you Priestes onely Christians for else howe can you apply this to the present purpose that Priests should haue power ouer the goods of the faithfull that the faithfull should run for decision of their coÌ„trouersies to the Priests not to the Princes that the Bishops may iudge of the Princes goods aod kingdome and giue it away to another trow you this was the meaning of S Paule But you excuse the matter with this that they had then no Christian Magistrates As though therfore he had bidden such lawe matters to be determined by their pastors No M. Saund. this was neither the words nor the meaning of him For he knewe the pastors had another power and inough to do therin although they busied not theÌ„selues in the law matters that fel out among the ChristiaÌ„s Not that s. Paule thought they might haue no power of any bodily things nor proprietie of temporall goods or that he thought they mighte in no case be peacemakers in suche brabling matters but that Saint Paule woulde haue the pleadyng and decision of suche things to be rather belonging ordinaryly to some faithfull and honest manne chosen among them selues than to runne to heathen Iudges Which words among themselues do as it were declare that he ment such as was of their owne calling and not their â—…astor â–ª Which is more euident in that he saith is there no wise man among you what not one that can iudge betwene brother and brother so that he speaketh in generall and not onely of the pastor And where he saith chose a contemptible person Except ye will make the pastor contemptible â–ª it argueth he ment not this iudge should
to enriche the Popes coafers although he claymed it not by any title of Supremacie but as the keper of the Churches hutche And since by continuance grew to an ordinarie custome as a fée vnto him And afterwarde his vsurpation here being remoued this was also thought good to be better and more profitably bestowed on our owne naturall liege and true supreme gouernour within our owne realme than on a foreyne vsurper to mainteyne his whores and pompe and to empouerish the realme and beat vs with our owne goods And had it bene otherwise disposed or remitted the Prince not withstanding had bene full supreme gouernour But is it so haynouse a matter now for a Prince to receyue tenths or first fruites did not I pray you euen by your Popes dispeÌ„sations and bulles Princes receyue them diuerse times before and if they may receyue them with his bulles why may they not receyue them being giuen by order of the owners euen without his bulles also Now sith ye can make no good argument on the ordinarie paying of tenthes or first fruites to proue your Popes nor to improue the Princes supremacie thinke ye it a good reason to argue from an extraordinarie facte on some occasion or consideration to subuerte an ordinarie authoritie You say they paide both in one yere to King Henrie Were ye not disposed to wrangle and misconster euery facte odiously ye woulde not vrge your reason thus M. Stapleton For admitte ought were amisse therein by ouersight or euer the inconuenience were espied and amended as after ye graunt it was which was eueÌ„ the next yéere following what is this to the impayring of his supreme authoritie if their receyuing of the tenthes and first fruites be allowable as euen your Popes haue allowed the same What caÌ„ye make of the double receipt sauing that he receiued more than he should that yeare of dutie haue receyued if ye make the worst of it And yet thereby it followeth that he might haue receyued them as he afterwarde did and as the Prince now receyueth them But haue ye neuer redde of the Popes dubbling trebling quadrupling and extreme excessiue encreasing of payments vpoÌ„ payments not one yere but euery yere with continuall and vnsatiable polling of the clergie in times past But this coulde ye not remember Your remembraunce serues ye like the hornes of a snayle ye can stretche it out and pull it in as it pleaseth you But the Chronicles that ye pretende to haue read and quote so fast cry out of the Popes vnsatiable dropsie and infinite practises to get golde and siluer And where findes he suche priestly supremacie in all the olde Testament The argument wherewith you confirme your marke agaynst the Princes receiuing therof is yet more fonde and faultie Ioseph would not suffer the heathen Priests to pay either tithes or fines Ergo The Christian Clergie muste not suffer themselues to paye tenthes or firste fruites to their Christian Princes This argument is more Heathenish than christianlike M. Stapl. or student like either but good inoughe for the popish Clergie to grounde them selues vppon Thinke ye the doings of Ioseph in dealing with those heathen Idolaters to be a fit rule to leâ—…el Christian Princes duties towardes their Priests and people or do ye thinke that Ioseph did giue this immunitie to the Priestes more than to the people to mainteyne those Priestes the better bicause they were Priests hauing onely the bare name of Priests as ye say well therein and so being false Priestes and setters out of Idolatrie that they should haue more immunities liberties and wealth than others had you will make Ioseph belike a very holy Patriarke But perchance ye haue espied a greater affinitie betwene those Egiptian Priests and your romish Priestes than euery body was aware of And therefore ye reason substantially from their prerogatiues vnto yours Is it bicause ye fetche your shauen crownes from them or at least that they had shorne heads as you haue as witnesseth Alexander ab AlexaÌ„dro Apud Aegiptios qui sacra ministraÌ„t sacerdotes capite rasi sunt The priests among the Egiptians that minister the holy sacrifices are shauen on the head Or is it bicause the most of your masking trinkets came from thence or is it bicause of your Egiptiacall darkenesse and ignorance that ye kept all people in or is it bicause all your religion lay in mysticall figures and as they dispising ordinary letters had their Hierogliphicall mysteries and signes wherby they set foorth their meaninges so you dispising Gods worde and all good letters your whole religion consisteth in mysteries signes and gestures or is it bicause the Egiptian priests Idolatrie and the Popishe priests Idolatrie is the grossest of all others and the most bestiall or is it bicause as Rauistus Textor telleth of the likenesse betwéen your religious Heremites Anachorâ—… Friers and their priestes called Sarabaytae of whom he sayth Habitabant in foraminibus petrarum induti porcorâ—…m boum pellibus cincti funsbus discalciati sanguine cruentati cauerniâ—… demum exeuntes paâ—…pertatem abstmentiam predicabant barbam spectante populo sibi perâ—…ellebant nummisque tali astu commeâ—…to adeptis remeabant in suas speluncas in summa laetitia furtim dapibus epulabantur They dwelled in the holes of rockes like your ankers and recluses clad with hogges skins and oxe hides like your heremites girte with cordes and barefoote like your friers besprent with bloud lyke your Spanish whippers comming abrode out of their dens they preached pouertie and abstinence like your limitors they pulled away their beards in the sight of the people like your popish shauelings and by this craft and deuise getting money they returned to their dens and in great mirthe they priuily made good cheere So like the one almost in euery iote is to the other Or is it bicause your Ladies chaplaines maiden priests were so like the single priests of Isis Or is it bicause your Nunnes were so like their women priests or is it for that your priests haue claymed such authoritie aboue their princes to take froÌ„ them their estates and realmes yea and their liues at their pleasures as dyd the Ethiopian priests at Merâ—…e of whome sayth Diodorus Siculus Adeò superstitione impleuerunt hominuÌ„ animos vt noÌ„nunquam misso nuncio necem regâ—… Aethiopsâ—… demandareÌ„t nullo detractaâ—…te aâ—…t mandatuÌ„ iâ—…ssionemue abneganâ—…e Superstition did so muche fill the mindes of men that the priests sending a messenger would oftentimes commaund the king of Ethiopia to be killed and nobody forslacked his coÌ„maundement nor refused his bidding Euen a right popish supremacie M. St. And thus they handled at their commaundement christian Princes and the superstitions people were so bewitched that none durst foresâ—…acke or refuse euen agaynst their naturall Princes to satisfie the tyrannie and commaundement of the Pope A great many causes more mighte be suspected why ye pretende so muche for your
in heauen things that are in earth things visible things inuisible whether they be Maiestie or Lordship either rule or power al things are created by him and in him be is before all things and in him all things haue their being and he is the head of the bodie that is to wit of the congregation he is the beginning and first begotten that in all thinges he might haue the preheminence for it pleased the father that in him all fulnesse should dwell and by him to reconcile all things to him selfe and to set at peace by him through the bloud of his Crosse both things in heauen and things in earth Here is no mencion at all of hir but all of him master Stapleton for whome all things were made But euen these properties of Christ this blasphemous doctour applieth to hir and sayth your Church doth so For a little before he sayth Sed hoc loco c. But in this place is to be asked whether the blessed virgin were brought forth before all creatures For of hir sayth the Church that saying Eccle. 24. Ab initio ante secula creata sum From the beginning and before the worlde was I made and againe in the Epistle of this solemnitie the Virgine is brought in saying that sentence Prou. 8. The Lord hath possessed me from the beginning of his wayes before he made any thing euen from the beginning from euerlasting I was ordeyned and from of olde before the earth was made as yet the depthes were not and I was alreadie begotten as yet the fountaynes flowed not with water nor as yet the mountaynes in their great compasse were setled before all the hilles was I begotten VVhich wordes doe seeme so to sounde that she was brought forth before the bringing forth of any other thing Who is he that knoweth not that these wordes are spoken of the eternall sonne of God begotten before all ages and is euen one wyth that S. Iohn sayth In the beginning was the worde and yet bicause it is spoken in the feminine gender vnder the name of the eternall wisedome of God he most ignoranâ—…ly and Idolatrously transferreth it to the virgin Marie Neyther he alone but he sayth your Church doth so so that all your whole Church is a blasphentous Church And thus ye ascribe the promise of the blessed seede to the blessed virgine saying not it but shee shall tread downe the serpents heade So where Dauid sayth Non est qui se abscondat à â—…alore 〈◊〉 None can hide him from his heate ye say none can hide him from hir heate Likewise where the wisedome of God sayth In the welbeloued Citie gaue he me rest in Hierusalem was my power Iacobus de Udragine applieth it to hir saying Primo pater c. First the father hath made hir mightie to helpe Eccle. 24. in Hierusalem was my power for she is made so mightie that she can help vs in life in death and after death c. Againe where Christe sayth I am exalted like a Palme tree aboute the bankes and as a rose Palme in Hierico as a fayre Oliue tree in a pleasant fielde that ascribeth he to hir saying Sunt enim quidam c. There are some Saints who when they are prayed vnto follow the information of their conscience and therefore often tymes they will not pray to God for vs bicause they haue a conscience that they are not worthie to be heard Other Saintes there are that when they are prayed vnto they follow the streightnesse of Gods righteousnesse And therefore if they be desired and knowe that this is not fitte for Gods iustice they dare not aske but the blessed Virgin neither looketh to conscience nor to iustice but to mercie As who should say let them keepe their consciences to themselues that lust and let them that will loke to Gods iustice I will alwayes hold me to mercie and for this so excellent Modestie shee sayth of hir selfe Eccle. 24. I am as a fayre Oliue in the fieldes Yea you say shée hath such excéeding and excelling mercie that not onely it passeth all the Saints but that illud quod dicitur Eccl. 18. de Domino potest dici etiaÌ„ de Domina c. That the which is spoken Eccle. 18. of the Lorde may be spoken of the Ladie The mercie of a man is towarde his neighbour but the mercie of the Lorde is ouer all flesh Thus ye robbe God of his glory to adourne hir attributing all to hir And say that the father hath written in hir his power where Christ sayth contrarie all povver is giuen me of my father in heauen and earth c. that the sonne hath vvritten in hir his vvisedome that the holy ghost hath vvritten in hir his goodnesse and mercie Againe the father hath made hir his Treasorer vvhereby shee hath conquered the Deuill and povvreth into cur mindes diuine knovvledge The sonne hath made hir his Chamberlayne The holy ghost hath made hir his Cellerer The vvhole Trinitie hath made hir Almosiner of heauen Shee is Chauncellour to the holy ghost shee is Porter of Paradise Ipsa nanque est ostium c. For shee is the doore by the vvhich vve enter into Paradise vvhich by Eue vvas shutte and by hir is opened Ipsa enim est quae nos suis meritis in atrium principis introducit For it is shee that by hir merits bringeth vs into the porch of the Prince VVhervpoÌ„ Ioh. 18 it is sayde A Damsell that was the doore keeper the blessed virgine calleth hirselfe an handemayde or Damsell let in Peter into the Princes porche Ipsa nanque virgo For euen the virgin is the vvindovv vvherby God beholdeth vs vvith the eie of mercie Uirgo autem Maria. The Virgin Marie is the throne of mercy grace and glorie she is the Sunne to the iust the Moone to the Saints the faithful vvitnesse to sinners the aduocate of mankinde the drop that softneth all hardnesse There vvere three things that once vvere hard God that receyued none to mercie Death that svvalovved vp all to hell the Deuill that enraged vvith enmitie But the Virgin Marie so mollified God that he receiued all men to mercie She so trodde death vnder foote that novve he can not take avvay the Saints Shee ouercame the Deuill that he can novve â–ª deceyue none but him that lust to be deceyued that novv shee may say I forsake you not but as a drop I abyde vvith you bicause my odour abydeth vvith you vvherevvith I haue mollifyed God I haue troden dovvne death I haue ouercome the Deuill This is one droppe of hir grace master Stap. but what can ye ascribe more to al the droppes of the bloud of christ To conclude ye make hir all in all Shee â—…lenseth vs from our sinnes â–ª shee lightneth vs from ignorance she strengthneth vs from our infirmities Et per ipsam virg c. and by the blessed
setting vp of Images I thinke your selfe was halfe ashamed to shewe but muche more afrayed to note by whoâ—…e authoritie thys Councell was called and ordred which had béene perteyning to the issue betwéene the Bishop Master Feck But we shall see more thereof when we come thereto Ye are very straight laced For defacing and burning the Images of all Hallowes of Christ and of Christes Images and this ye call villanie But ye make no boanes to deface and burne as villaynes and herelikes the very all Hallowes in déede of Christ his true and liuely Images and members this is no villanie with you at all But euen your owne bookes yea your owne Pope if Clement were a Pope and if the worke were his condemneth you For what doe you herein otherwise thâ—… did the Heathen â–ª If whom he writeth thus That Serpent also is woont to alleage such woordes as this we worship visible Images to the honour of the inuisible God but this is most certainely false for if in deede yee will worship the Image of God yee shoulde in doing of good deedes vnto man worship the verie Image of God for in euery man is the Image of god His similitude is in no other things but there where is a benigne and pure minde If ye will therefore honour truely the Image of God wee open to you that whiche is the truth that yee doe well to man whiche is the Image of God giue honour and reuerence to him giue meate to the hungrie and to the thirstie drinke to the naked cloathing succour to the sicke harborough to the straunger minister to him that is in prison such things as hee needeth And this is that which in deede shall be counted giuen to god These things do so much redounde to the honor of Gods Image that he which doth them not is thought to do villanie to Gods Image VVhatkin worship then of God is this to gad vp and downe after stonie and wodden shapes to worship theÌ„ as though they were godheads being vaine figures and without life and dispise man in whome is the very Image of god But knowe ye for certaintie that he that committeth murther or whoredome yea whatsoeuer he doth to hurte or iniurie men in all these thinges is the Image of God violated c. vnderstande ye therefore that this is the Diuels suggestion lurking in you which persuadeth you ye may seeme godly while ye worship vnsensible thinges and not to seeme vngodly while ye hurt both sensible and reasonable creatures Thus saith your Pope not onely to the Heathen then but also to you vsing the same Heathen fashions now standing so much on the defacing burning and villaning Gods Images as ye call them of woode stone And your selues burne deâ—…ace and villaine the very Images of God either not knowing the true Images of God but taking dead pictures for his Image or wittingly reiecte your Popes aduertisement and do contrary to your consciences But as ye thus deface Gods very Image so deface ye God him selfe Ye stande much vppon his pretended Image and yet ye regarde not him his worde nor his commaundement Ye honour ye say his Image and dishonour him selfe I omit the foresaid dishonoringes of him in your inuocation in iustifiyng your wicked concupiscence from beyng sinne c. ye dishonour him euen in the Images that ye made of him to honour him by Was not this a dishonour of God to picture him out like a Creature like a sinner like a corruptible man like an old greybearded Father yea like a monster with three faces in one head as the â—…eathen pictured Ianus with two faces or Gerion with thrée bodies or Cerberus with three heads what was dishonour to God if this were not to set out any picturs of God yea after the portrature of man whose bodie though it is Formae praestamissimâ—… Of a most comely shape is yet so vnsitting for God that S. Augustine calleth it Sacrilege Yea God sende it â—…all not out that ye mainteyne a foule Heresie of the Trinitie therein But how cunningly soeuer ye shall cleere your selfe thereof a great dishonoring of God it was A lie can not be an honour to him that is truth and a spirite and will be worshipped in spirite and truth not in a bodely Figure and that a false figure too if the picture of God be not a lye when sawe ye God at any time if ye neuer sawe him ye go by blinde ghessâ—… Yea if he him selfe euen for this purpose when he would most shew him selfe would yet shewe no bodily figure least any should Worship him by any bodily Fiigure will you presume to make after your fantaâ—…ies a bodâ—…ly forme or rather deformitie of him how can this be but a lie a dishonour an Idolatrie and presuâ—…npteouse rebellion against Gods purpose and expresse commaundement Euen as Iob saith Currit impuis contra Deum extentâ—… collo The wicked runneth against God euen with a stretched out necke Thus as you deface God pretending his honour so deface ye those Saincts that ye call al â—…hallowes euen vnder the pretence of honoring them and their Images For if it be not honour to God to honour him by a picture thinke you it is than an honour to his Saincts to be honored by pictures and if his Saincts themselues refused honour will they haue their pictures honored Your shifte that ye make of unlearned and lay mennes bookes neither will any thing auaile you nor your selues vse it otherwyse than for a shifte For ye vsed them not as remembrancers but ye honored them as helpers Now if a learned man may not knéele créepe crouche offer and praye to his booke thoughe the booke were of the Saintes lyues neuer so muche yea thoughe it were Gods booke Moyses honoured not the verie Tables writen with the finger of God by what priuiledge then may the Lay and vnlearned person honoure knéele offer and praye vnto their bookes yea admitting the case that Images were the Idiotes bookes as ye call them But God wote they are verie Idiots that haue no other but suche bookes And more Idiots that thus honoure their bookes And you most Idiotes of all I am afrayde that make suche Idiotes reasons The Idolatry that ye made the people to commit was to manifest The practises ye vsed were to broade The tales that your Legendes tell of the workes of Images are tootoo shamefull M. Stapleton Ye tell vs howe the picture of the Uirgin Marie was Bawde to Beatrice a Nonne the space of the xv yere while she played the common strumpet Ye tell vs that at Spire Ubi adoratur Imago Sancta dei genetricis quae ad sanctuÌ„ Bernardum tribus vicibus locuta est c. Where the Image of the holy mother of God is adored which spake three times to S. Bernarde A boy gaue hir childe a piece of bread criyng Pu
Haereticis No fayth must be kept to Heretikes as ye call vs But syth ye protest to be so vnfaythfull you might call them fooles to that would beléeue either any open or dissembling Papist What say ye againe to the Priscillianists that say men are tyed to the destinie of the starres and that our bodie is composed according to the twelue Signes of heauen placing as those doe that are called the Mathematikes a Ram to rule the heade a Bull in the necke Twinnes in the shoulders a Crabbe in the breast and so running throughe the other Signes by name they discende vnto the soales of the feete which they allotte to Fishes which of the Astrologians is called the last signe Vppon these and such other fabulous vayne and sacrilegious thinges which were to long to prosecute is this Heresie compounded Thus sayth Saint Augustine Nowe if this be so heynous an Heresie as Saint Augustine maketh it all your Popishe Churche are infected with it And I woulde wishe all good Christians to beware howe farre they beléeue the blinde Prophecies of many Almanackes that fill the Papistes braynes with hopes and murmurings and feare the sielie people wyth doubtfull expectations All which by Saint Augustines iudgement is but Heresies But God graunt say I it tende to nothing else What say yâ—… to the Acephali that sayde women may be shée Deacons such as were your Nonnes What say ye againe to the Priscillianistes that those whome they coulde perswade to their sect they parted the man from his wife agaynst the wiues will and parted the wife from the husbande agaynst the husbandes will. And that although they refused not the canonicall scripture yet they ioyned there with the Bookes called Apocrypha counting them likewise of authoritie and in the canonicall scriptures whatsoeuer ouerturneth their errour they turne it into allegoricall senses What say ye to the Messaliani with whom ye burthen vs but howe neare your selues drawe to them appeareth in that they spent their life in Monkishe ydle praying sléeping and eating not so like the foresayde Euchitae as lyke the Papists They craked that they sawe reuelations and fled from all handie craftes and labour and buylded themselues Celles and Oratories and Euening and Morning with many lights and Caudles burning gathered togither and deceyued themselues with long praiers told straunge fables of purging of soules Epiphanius confuting them imputeth all this to a fonde and naughtie zeale wherewith they were so blinded that they durst attempt such thinges contrarie to the holy Scripture This Heresie so encreased in euerie place that the fathers had much a doo to â—…oote them oute yea diuerse Monasteries were faine to bée burned vp that were infected herewith And yet all the Popishe Abbeys had euen the selfe same lubberly deuotion and all the other errours superstitions and fables if not an infinite number of worse and therefore no maruayle if God haue rooted vp and do most iustly destroy the dennes of such auncient and so pernicious Heretikes In this point notwithstanding the Papists are contrary to the Messalians who sayde there are manie Gods and yet doe worship but one GOD almightie But the Papistes will say there is but one GOD almightie and yet giue such worship as is onely due to him to many mâ—… besides Of which contraries it is hard to iudge which barrell is better herring What say ye to the Aëtians that sayd for a man to lie with a woman without matrimonie was no more a sinne than to picke his eare so that he were of their religion and doth your Pope make much more of the matter so that ye be a Catholike and pay a fee for a whore whiche is yet somewhat more than to picke his eare for by such filthie gaynes the Pope did picke their purses What say you to the Theophroniani that trauayled chiefly in Aristotles Categories interpretation of wordes and propositions in subtile and absurde disputations in curious scanning of names and wordes in the scripture like for all the worlde to your Thomists Scotists Dâ—…camists Sorbonists and all the sects of schoolemen making of Aristotles Philosophie good diuinitie being altogither occupied in curious and subtile quiddities What say ye to the Aërians your selues with whome ye charged vs so fast that as the other abouesayd Heretikes admitted none to their communion but such as were continent without wiues and forsooke the worlde and had no proprietie of their goodes as all your Cloysterers pretended What say ye to the Colliridiani or Ladies Chaplaynes as ye terme your Priestes that worshipped and offred sacrifice vnto hir as the Papists doing the same or more is shewed sufficiently What say ye to the Anthropomorphitae that helde that God had forme and partes like a man if ye say you beleus not so whie then doe you contrarie to your beliefe picture out God in such a fashion and so by your owne rules the figure not béeing like the truth it implieth an Idoll as is confessed Yea are ye not like herein to those Heretikes that S. Augustine noteth to make triformem deum a three-formed God whereby if those Monkes were by ignorance deceyued how much more were many thousands deceyued by such pictures taking God in déede to be euen such an one as he was portrayed out in the Image Ye haue called vs Pelagians and worse then Pelagians But do ye not say we are worse bicause you like them well ynough but for the name sake onely Else what say you to the Pelagians errours The Pelagians helde for originall sinne that it can not be sinne that is in infants for bicause infants want will but sinne cannot be where will doth want Ergo it is no sinne And is not this the Papists saying Uoluntas est sedes peccâ—… VVill is the feate of sinne but infants haue not will nor liberum voluntatis arbitrium The â—…ree arbitrement of will infants therefore haue no sinne For it cannot haue the nature of sinne that wanteth these The Pelagians saydâ—… that sinne can not infect corrupt chaunge nor be in the nature and substance of man. And is not this the very selfe same saying of Pigghius As for frée will did not the Pelagians say that if there remaine by nature no free will in man â–ª then all exhortation preaching and the law of God is commaunded in vaine And that the taking away of freewill taketh away the studie and care of Godly life And doth not Pigghius say euen the same that we are not nor can bee bounde to any lawe of God to keepe the commaundements where we haue not facultie freewill and might to satisfie and fulfill those things that are commaunded and that this doctrine of grace destroyeth all good woorkes as taking awaye free election and will Did not the Pelagians say that the law of God is easie to be fulfilled and all the commaundements of God are possible to be kept And do
wife or any other mans wife daughter or mayde in things perteyning to their duties and offices can and ought to doe Especially sithe your selfe in prosecuting this argument vrge the example of a woman All the women in his kingdome are his subiects so well as the men He hath a supreme gouernment ouer all persons in all causes can he therfore do their duties and yet he can haue the supreme gouernment to maynteine all lawes of matrimonie and to punishe all whordomes and yet not like euery somoner or other executioner of their punishements If ye say a woman may be no inferiour gouernour That is false a wife hath inferiour gouernment in hir housholde and many women haue had inferiour gouernments vnder kings in common weales as the Lady regentes in Flaunders c. But what if she were not an vndergouernour yet if she be a subiect gouerned the words of your definition coÌ„prehend hir saying A chiefe gouernour hath of necessitie the power of doing all those thinges which may be wrought of the inferiours to the magistrates of that congregation by their office or by any charge belonging properly to the same congregation But you will say perhaps that women are of an other kinde so that the king can not do al their offices As likewise for the ecclesiastical gouernment the Apostles might not lawfully do all those things that the widdowes chosen to serue in the congregation mighte and ought to do nor the ciuill magistrate of those congregations might or ought to do them Then will M. Feckenham presse you that your definition is false a gouernour can not do all things that belongeth to a subiect If ye say a woman is not a subiecte that is false If ye say she is not a subiect in respect she is a woman that is false also for both men and women are subiectes to their gouernours If ye say she is not a subiecte in respect she is a wife although I graunt the worde wife hath an other relation than to the king to wife vnto hir husbande yet what auayleth this sithe many offices haue many other relations also the sonne to his father the seruant to his master the scholler to his scholemaster and yet all these be subiects to the Prince although the Prince can not deale in all their seuerall offices But you thinke to salue all the matter with this exception I say not that he which is endowed with chiefest power should straight wayes haue the knowledge of euery lesser office for this perteyneth to the fact and not to the right Neither say I it is alwayes comely that he should execute the inferiour offyce by him selfe but I say there is no lawe to let him no power wants whereby the chiefe magistrate shoulde not do those things which the inferiours in the same common weale are wonte to doe Go to go to M. Saunders ye will still be like the gentleman that would fayne haue eaten his worde if he durst for shame Ye come in pretily and beginne to make some exceptions already you admitte he may wante knowledge of many things perteyning not to his office yea and that it is vncomely he should do them And in déede M. Saunders if you be thinke ye of euery subiectes doings ye shall finde many vncomely and vnreuerent things for so highe an estate to do and many things that he knowes no more howe to do them him selfe than that Cooke that would put mustarde into his milke to season it What and may the Prince do those things him self that are so vile and wherof he hath no knowledge He may say you and he will what righte or lawe may let him If ye talke M. Saunders of a wilfull foole that will caste him selfe and his kingdome away if ye talke of a tyraunt whose will is lawe that sayth as the Pope doth Sic volo sic iubeo stet pro ratione voluntas that is another matter But if ye talke of a king and of a lawfull power then I say his will and power oughte to be restrayned by lawe to do nothing vnskilfully nor vncomely for his estate I graunt he may abase him selfe to some inferiour kinde of offices to do them but not to all no not by the right of his royall estate And yet by his gouernment all those thinges are done that are orderly done Although he him selfe may not do them though he would Do ye not remember S. Paules similitude so ofteÌ„ vsed by your selfe M. Saunders of a coÌ„mon weale resembled to our body The head ye say often gouerneth all the parts and meÌ„bers but the head it selfe doth not nor can not do al that al the parts members do We stande not we go not we sit not on our heads our head reacheth not nor caÌ„ reach euery thing that our hande can reache doth Nor the head doth or can do the office of the shouloers back or belly yet ye graunt the head hath supreme gouernment ouer al these parts deuiseth lawes orders diets prouisioÌ„s helpes for all the parts and actions in the parts of all the body Thus ye sée not only by similitudes examples in which I might be infinite agaynst your thâ—… exaÌ„ples but also by good reason your definition of a supreme gouernour faileth he may be a lawful supreme gouernour yet can not do al the offices of his inferiours Yea it were vnlawful for him to attempt many such things and yet his lawfull supreme gouernmeÌ„t euen ouer all those things that he him selfe can not do nor ought to do is no whit therby empayred And therfore this is a false principle to builde as ye do thereon Nowe this béeing thus playnly proued a false groundeworke let vs sée howe ye procéede to frame your argument on it VVhich things beeing thus foretouched I adde vnto them that the supreme head or gouernour of any Church is the supreme magistrate of that coÌ„mon weale which no man hauing his right minde will denie Therfore if the king may rightly and worthily be named the supreme head or gouernour of that Churche as nowe this good whyle is done in Englande the same king shall also necessarily haue the facultie of working all those things which of that magistrate of that Churche may be wrought otherwyse he is not the gouernour of that Church in respecte it is a Church But in euery christian kingdome there are and ought to be many that shoulde preache the worde of God to the faythfull that shoulde baptise in the name of the father and of the sonne of the holy ghost the nations coÌ„uerted that should remitte sinnes that shoulde make the sacrament of thanksgiuing distribute it therfore he that is the supreme gouernour of any Church ought to be endowed with such power that no law should let wherby he might the lesse fulfil do al these things But a secular king although he be a christian can not do these things by the
and that he confutes it neither can we iustlye gather anye argumente of a former authoritie from a former placing of the persons or theyr names whiche maye nowe and then bée placed the beste in the laste place or the best in the middle place so well as in the firste place and yet kepe a good and decent order And if Maister Saunders may reason thus in hys defence for placing the Priest laste why will not hys owne answere confute hys owne argument that here hée maketh of the Priest named in the firste place These argumentes now being thus weake and childishe to inferre any necessarie consequeÌ„ce of superior authoritie M. Saunders laboureth to strengthen theÌ„ with the authorities of witnesses Althoughe before hande in so playne a matter what néede witnesses or what coulde all the witnesses in the worlde doe to make these good consequences not that wée contemne these witnesses nor yet altogether denye the matter as wée haue diuers tymes affyrmed that the high Priestes office then and all the Priestes vnder hym and that all the Bishoppes and Ministers nowe in respecte of theyr diuine Ministerie of the worde and Sacramentes are to bée preferred as hauyng in dignitie a moste highe office before all other persons and so their office maye well bée placed before the Princes office But this as it nothing hindreth â–ª in other respectes a superior office of the Prince ouer them so to enforce the dignitie of the Priestes office by these bâ—…lde reasons is rather to blemishe it and bring it in contempte But let vs sée Maister Saunders testimonies VVherevpon Philo that of these matters as one that was a Iewe was of necessitie moste cunning it was fit sayth he that the Prince bee preferred before the priuate man yea euen in the Sacrifice as likewise the people before the Prince syth the whole is greater than parte thereof But the Bishop to bee made equall to the people in taking awaye and obtayning pardon of sinnes But this honour is counted to the Bishop not for hym selfe but bicause he is the Minister of the people making the vowes and prayers publikly to be performed in the name of all the nation â–ª The firste witnesse here is Philo Iudeus of whome I sée no necessitie Maister Saunders that he shoulde bée moste cunning in these matters neyther thinke I that he was most cunning in them althoughe that he were a Iewe and a notable learned man And yet herein exception might be made against him being rather a well liker of our Christian Religion than a professor of it or one that sheweth to haue anye great cunning in it Writing so manye bookes little or nothing of our Christian fayth saue in his booke de vita theoretica where he commendes it and calleth it Diuinam Philosophiam diuine Philosophie and saythe among other commendations of the Christians as thoughe himselfe were none habent autem etiam disputationes quasdam et interpretationes veterum viro rum qui et authores ipsius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 extiterunt But they haue also certaine dsiputations and interpretations of auncient men who were also the authours of that heresie or secte whereby Philo writing on this wise of the ChristiaÌ„s howe euer he fauoured them I thinke hée was not the cunningest in our Religion Neither doe you ascribe that vnto hym but saye he was most cunning in these matters meaning these Iewish Sacrifices But and he were not cunning in the faith of Christ he could not haue verie muche cunning in those sacrifices that were all referred to Christ. But was not that cunning that he had too muche driuing all the mysteries in gods word to Cabalistical Platonical numbers and figures to allegoricall and morall senses being himself so great a Platoniâ—…e that it grewe to a prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 either Plato imitateth Philo or Philo imitateth Plato so that in cunning allegoriâ—… he was cunning and yet not so cunning as Origen who likeneth herein the priest to the sense of godlynesse and Religion and the Prince vnto the force of reason But into what errors he ran by these conceits is manifest although he were a farre more cunning Christian than it should appeare that euer Philo was I speake not this in their dispraise or altogether to reiecte their allegories which may be admitted so farre forth as they be sober and godly and not contrarie to the plaine texte although they differ from the simple meaning of it But althoughe they may delight and edisie they proue nothing of necessitie therefore are not to be brought in controuersies whosoeuâ—…r the authors be the writers of the holy Scripture onely excepted But let vs admit Philoes allegorie what are you Maister Saunders therby eueÌ„ one whit the nerer of your purpose if not the furder from it the Prince is here affirmed to be inferior to all the people Howbeit not simply inferior but as he is a parte of the whole and a particular member of the body politike if ye stretch this so generally that he hath not againe a superiour power not onely ouer euery other part but also ouer all the parts ye may quickly make a madde politike body â–ª If ye loke but of your owne example of a natural body so often cited do ye not say the head rules all the body and what say you by your owne head maister Saunders it séemeth by the heade strong opinion of these your reasons that it rules all your bodye to muche oute of square Although it be but one part of you yet hath it the supreme gouernement of all your partes So that this makes nothing againste the Princes superioritie But now what maketh it for the superioritie of the B. or rather maketh it it not inferior withall marreth al your first booke against the authoritie of the people Philo sayth not that the B. is aboue the people but the B. is made equall to the people as who should say of himself being but a man he is not equall but inferior but is made equall to theÌ„ being made a Prince Now if the Prince haue a supreme gouernment of all the people for al that he is but a man and a particular member being a parte vnder the whole as likewise is the B. and so vnder the people to yet as this man is aboue all the people in regarde that he is made a Prince so is he aboue the B. to that also of a priuate man is made a B. whereby as Philo saythe he is made but equall to the people whereas the Prince is made aboue the people How answere ye herein to Philo Maister Saunders Howbeit say you that he saith the B may be made equall to the people this in deede is to bee vnderstoode to haue so come to passe in the thing offred for both offred a Bullocke Why M. Saunders and did ye not before in your Bullockishe reason make the thing offred to be an
made a King Quéene alone Now to this he addeth out of Esai saying Esai foretolde that kings shoulde bee the nourishers of the Church of Christe and casting dovvne their countenance to the earth shall vvorship hir and streight he adioyneth thou shalt knovv that I am the Lord for this verely is the signe that the Lord raigneth in vs if vve yelde so much vnto his church that the Ministers of Christe are greater than any King or Queene As this sentence is placed both withoute all order and coherencie so the reason is very sclender and standes on this that the Priests are the Churche that Esai here speakes on which as it is apparaÌ„t false so it is not to this purpose For the supreme gouernment of a godly Prince giueth not onely an honour to the Churche but to the Priests also and yet his supremacie safe But sée how this sentence hits him as the rest For if kings and Quéenes be likened to Nourses and Nourses haue charge not onely of féeding but also of gouerning then do Kings Quéenes both féede the Church although not by teching yet by causing the truth to be taught and gouerne the Church also And if by the Church is chiefly ment the priestes then the same kind of Princes feeding and gouerning like to Nourses stretcheth to priestes also and so the similitude makes against him His other argument of dispensing Gods mysteries and Sacramentes to the king is diuers times alreadie aunswered vnto and therefore as superfluous I passe it ouer And thus farre for his argumentes of his Priestes superioritie Nowe secondly to the reasons he sheweth why he thinkes vs deceyued But thus in this case deceiueth many that they see the king is a Christian and gouerneth Christians For they knowe not or at least will not know what difference it is whether a man goueren a Christian bycause hee is a man or bycause hee is a Christian. The king indeed gouerneth Christian men but not bycause they are Christians but bycause they are men And bycause the Byshoppes also themselues are men the kings also in part are aboue Byshops The which hereby goeth cleare away if wee consâ—…ider Christian kings not onely to gouerne Christian men but euen alike oftentimes Iewes now and then Moores and Tartars for this onely that they are kings But Byshops gouerne Christians so as they can gouerne no other as they are Byshoppes Sith therefore the gouernement of the king pertaineth to all men alike but Byshops principalitie is reached to onely Christians and sith the state of our Christianitie excelleth the humaine nature that is in vs with what sence is he endued that preâ—…erreth the gouernoure of our bodily and fleshely nature before the prieste that watcheth for our soules and that either loseth our sinnes if wee make worthie fruites of repentance or bindeth them if we beare about an impenitent heart For the Ministers binding and loosing is an other question Let vs nowe kepe vs to this of the Princes supreme gouernment We are deceyued you say for lacke of considering this difference that the king gouerneth Christians not as Christians but as men and we thinke you arâ—… deceyued your selfe M. Saunders and would 〈◊〉 others for not considering this difference in the king him selfe in whoÌ„ we ought to consider not onely that he is a king but also a Christian king In that he is a king he geuerneth aâ—… his subjects as ye say a like so farre as the likenesse or 〈◊〉 of their sâ—…ates will permit whether they be Christian Iewes Turkes Mores â—…aitars Ethniks or whatsoeuer religioÌ„ they be of not in respecte of their religions nor in the they are 〈◊〉 neither but in respect they are his 〈◊〉 For ther are other men also that are none of his subjectes â—…ra euery man in that he is a man is no subiect to another man but frée Neither in that he is a christian to speake preperly of the abstracte he is vnder any other than Christe in whom there is no difference of countrey state degrée or person as your selfe afterwarde coÌ„fesse in the 4. chapter How â–ª beit as the king himselfe is of the Christianâ—… religion and a Christian king of a christian kingdome as al kings kingdomes ought to be although they be not so hath he an other charge and gouernement of his christian subiectes farre aboue that they be naturall men or this or that cruÌ„trey meÌ„ euen that they be christians committed to his gouernment And therefore this charge was giuen the king of Gods people in his institution Dâ—…ute 17. That he should haue Gods worde alwayes with him and make religion the chiefe end of his gouernement And this your selfe haue graunted alreadie pag. 80 excepte ye will contrary your selfe as ye often doe But this case is too apparant that a christian Prince regardeth further than the body or than the naturall or polytike man For being a christian Prince he regardeth them as christian subiectes and not alike to such subiectes as are Heathen Turkes and Tartars which is a shameful sclander For as the christian Prince hath a speciall regarde to his christian subiectes before his Infidell subiects so they being subiects of vnlike condition he gouerns them nothing a like The one being out of the houshold of fayth although in the housholde of his kingdome The other being of bothe the housholdes and therefore the faythfull Prince hath fuller authoritie ouer them as wel for the religion of their soules as for their goodes and bodies But saye you the Byshoppe bath respecte only to the soule I say still would to God your Byshops had so But doth this hinder the Princes superioriue that hath respect to soule and bodie too The argumentes of Constantine Theodosius and Constantius are somewhat touched alreadie and I reserue the further handling of theÌ„ to the practise and treatise of the stories The 3. part of this chapter is a dissuasioÌ„ from the Princes supreme gouernment by the successe thereof Wherin first he begins with the most famous Prince King Henrie the. 8 the Queenes Matesties father the noblest and moste fortunate king that euer bare crowne in England now when his soule is crouned in the kingdome of heauen with eternal glorie his body with honor interred in his Sepulcher his immortal fame yet fresh liuing in the memorie mouthes of al nations sée these spitefull Papistes will leaue off with more than villanous reproches moste traiterously to rayle vpoÌ„ him Saying that he first called himself the Chief head of the Church of England Ireland immediately vnder Christ Besides that he was neuer the happier but much more vnhappie Upbrayding his wiues vnto him The couÌ„terfeting of the money and the pilling of his subiects â—… wicked Papistes past all shame and grace Howe truely dyd the Apostle Iude prophecie of you that 〈◊〉 â—…ulers and blaspheme â—…hem that 〈◊〉 authoritie Was King Henrie the
than God permitteth but also by force and agaynst the consent of bothe the parties seuered those that God hathe ioyned and ioyned those that God hath forbidden to be ioyned Dothe not the Pope maynteine the greatest vsuries that be to wit the Iewes to pill and poll the Christians and al for his own lucre besides his most filthy and vnlawfull gayne by fornication Doth not the Pope by the abuse of the sword keyes that he saith he carrieth carrie away the Christian citizens into most greeuous sinnes yea and say he may carrie away with him at the world to the diuel no maÌ„ must be so hardie as to say sir why do you thus Shal it now be a wicked deede to remoue the Pope from the felowship of the faithful after one or two admonitions then if he amend not him selfe that all Christian Princes helpe to expell him vtterly froÌ„ the vsurpation of this his worldly kingdome But M. Sa. not séeing these vices in his holy father surmising the worst in Princes supposeth we will answere his obiection thus But one wil say no power is giueÌ„ vnto the Church of punishing or of remouing the kings froÌ„ their office therfore if the kings wil not of their own accord be ameÌ„ded they are altogither to be born withal neither caÌ„ any other thing be lawfully attempted agaynst them This truely do many preache Who they be that preach this I know not I think it but your slaunder Ill will neuer sayde well And yet whosoeso preacheth this preacheth farre better than you do whose sermon is all of treason rebellion As for vs we preache this that the preacher or spirituall pastor may in suche extremities vse a spirituall punishment of denouncing the sentence of Gods wrath agaynst him But to punishe him with bodily punishment or with expelling him from his kingdome is no more belonging to the Bishop than to put him to death The state of some kingdomes are such I grauÌ„t that the Princes regiment is but conditional and he so wel bounde to the electors of him other péeres or estates in his Signiorie as they to him and either parties sworne in his Coronation not onely to obserue those conditions but to persecute or remoue the violater of them In suche cases what those Electors Péeres Estates may do howe they may or may not do it is an other matter But that eueÌ„ in these estates the Bishops caÌ„ do it do it in that they are Bishops this we denie M. Sand and as yet you haue not proued it But I doubte not but that euery necessarie and profitable power is giuen to the Pastor ouer his sheepe whether they be lambes or lambes dammes or rammes and that to this purpose that he shoulde strengthen that that is weake that he should heale that that is sicke that he shoulde binde vp that that is broken that he should bring againe that that is caste away that he should seeke that that is loste so that he rule not with austeritie and power You doubt not M. sand but I doubt of this that euery necessarie and profitable power is giuen to the Pastor ouer his sheepe The eccl. power is both necessarie and profitable But the Prince is a pastor and the people are his sheepe And yet by your owne confession the ecclesiasticall power is not giuen to the Prince Had you marked this you mighte haue doubted that euery necessarie and profitable power is giuen to the pastor ouer his sheepe Agayne the power of the sworde and putting to death malefactors is a necessarie and profitable power But the Bishop is a pastor and the people are his sheepe And yet by your own confession the power of the sworde and putting to death is not giuen to the Bishop Had you séene this also you might haue doubted that euery necessarie and profitable power is giuen to the Pastor ouer his sheepe This lacke of doubting made you toâ—… rashe of déeming and to pronounce your sentence ouer general And as you sée in these two cases a flatte exception that you wil gladly reuoke so we muste driue you to graunte the other powers also pertayning to a King whiche notwithstanding they are necessarie and profitable are yet not giuen vnto a Bishop although he be a Pastor I pray you remember Vos autem non sic if it will not make you sicke to remember it The duties of good pastors that you cite out of Ezech. 34. God we graunt hath giuen them power thereto But the Popish pastors are as farre froÌ„ all these points much farther than the Iewishe pastors were of whome the Lorde coÌ„playneth saying VVo be to the pastors of Israel that feed theÌ„selues are not â—…he sheepe fed of the shepherds ye did eate the milk were clad with the wol â–ª that that was fat ye killed but my flock ye fed not â–ª that that was weak ye streÌ„gthned not that that was sick ye healed not that that was brokeÌ„ ye bouÌ„d not vp that that was cast away ye brought not in that that was lost ye sought not but ye ruled them with bitternesse with power how this directly toucheth the Pope and his Prelates euen the popish enterlined Glosse doth testifie Hoc proprie c. This properly is spoken of the pride of Bishops which shame with their works the dignitie of their name for humilitie taking pride who thinke they haue gotten heauen and not a burthen Whose loytring idlenesse whose vaine glorious pride whose bitter tyrannie more than kingly power was so intollerable that it was maruell that euer you durst for shame recite this place But you thought it serued to your purpose that you might vnder the name of sheepe punishe driue out Princes at your pleasures But this place giueth not Pastors power to weaken them that be strong to make them sicke that be hole to breake that that is bound vp to caste out that that is brought in to leese that that was sought for to kil deuour both the fat the leane both the Prince the people to rule with biâ—…ternesse with power al which by your popes practise is don by your exposition is defended For is not that to rule with bitternesse if ye expel your Princes froÌ„ their kingdomes can ye be any bitterer to them what earthly power can ye clayme higher than to seaze vpoÌ„ rule their kingdomes or to haue theÌ„ rule them after your rules whom you will appoynt to â—…olde them in chiefe froÌ„ you This place of Ezechiell giueth you not suche power but condemneth in Pastors the vsurpation of it But what will not impudencie wrest to serue his turne Moreouer to the minde and to reason power is giuen ouer all the members of the body insomuche that it biddeth that rotten member to be â—…ut from the body of the which it may be feared least it should infect the other members