Selected quad for the lemma: hand_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
hand_n	ghost_n	holy_a	imposition_n	5,347	5	10.7351	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85045	A discourse of the visible church. In a large debate of this famous question, viz. whether the visible church may be considered to be truely a church of Christ without respect to saving grace? Affirm. Whereunto is added a brief discussion of these three questions. viz. 1. What doth constitute visible church-membership. 2. What doth distinguish it, or render it visible. 3. What doth destroy it, or render it null? Together with a large application of the whole, by way of inference to our churches, sacraments, and censures. Also an appendix touching confirmation, occasioned by the Reverend Mr. Hanmore his pious and learned exercitation of confirmation. By Francis Fulwood minister of the gospel at West-Alvington in Devon.	Fullwood, Francis, d. 1693.	1658 (1658)	Wing F2500; Thomason E947_3; ESTC R207619	279,090	362

therefore as Peresius saith when opportunity is offered and consequently not necessary if no opportunity be offered or it cannot be had Object But if confirmation be a necessary ingredient to a proxime right in the Lords Supper how can it be supplied or how can a person have such a right without it Answ Therefore it may be remembred that confirmation or examination giveth no right at all to the person it Confirmation giveth no right onely evidenceth and confirmeth his former right and lets him into possession by admission to the Sacrament the person if self-examined hath right according to the word before confirmation 1 Cor. 11. 28. and by confirmation or approving of the Church hath indeed that which is called an Ecclesiastical right yet very improperly it being onely an evidencing and testifying of the former right which before he had as to God and conscience now in the Court of the Church for no man can convey a title to Gods Ordinances We must hold the distinction betwixt the means of conveying aright which here is self examination and the meanes of discovering this right and giving possession which is Church-examination approbation or if you will confirmation which I conceive is necessary to be submitted to by the people when it is required but not any necessary ingredient into any thing of their right or title to any Ordinance Confirmation when it is required is necessary to possession but not to right in the Lords Supper but when not required necessary to neither for if the Ministers neglect their duty in not ●equiring the people to be confirmed there is no reason the people should be kept from the Sacrament which is doubtlesse a clearer duty and a better meanes of the peoples confirmation then that which hath appropriated the name thereof 2. Secondly I conceive confirmation or examination is not so necessary when the end is attained before without it When the end is otherwise attained Discipline is no farther a duty then it is a meanes and meanes as such are onely necessary for the attaining their ends therefore where the end is attained unto there is no doubt lesse need of the meanes thus where a discovery of a persons grace and knowledge and fitnesse for the Sacrament the ends of confirmation is attained as it sometimes is by other meanes there I conceive that confirmation is not absolutely necessary to the letting in of a person to possesse his right in the Lords Supper it being no more required for the said ends then any other meanes conducing thereunto onely as it is a better meanes and in it selfe more likely and apt to obtaine them 3. Thirdly I conceive that confirmation not absolutely When likely to do hurt necessary to be used but may and ought to be dispensed with when the putting it in practice is likely to do more hurt then good viz. when upon a serious consideration of the peoples jealousies prejudices or any other kinde of distempers upon them it is rationally judged that seeming new and great and solemne undertaking will rather make some violent disturbance rupture or schisme among them and alienate their hearts and persons further from us then any way better reform or order them The Churches in Switzerland see much in that of Augustine that sometimes the wickednesse of the people is such that they are not fit for discipline and Augustine thought the Apostle saw the same in the Church of Corinth God grant we may not too soone have cause of the same complaint in England especially as to so solemne an Ordinance of discipline and so little as yet understood by the people as confirmation is where a medicine is like to do good 't is folly to omit it but where it is likely to hurt 't is folly I think to apply it especially after we have tried somewhat already of a very like nature to the same sore with but indifferent or bad successe Object But it may be said that if confirmation be required by God in Scripture it may in no case be dispensed with Answ I think the rule holdeth not to any part of discipline as discipline opposed to doctrine and worship a reproving our brother or telling him his fault is more clearly commanded then confirmation yet in some cases this is to be dispensed with Matth. 6. 7. 2. But secondly confirmation as now desired I think is not to Confirmation not expresse in Scripture or ancient churches as now desired be found in any expresse command or example in Scripture or indeed the ancient Churches Confirmation may bee lookt on in three special periods First as it was in the times of the Apostles Secondly as it was in the times next the Apostles 3. As in times nearer to us 1. First in the times of the Apostles I do yet beleeve Confirmation as used by Apostles that confirmation was nothing else but imposition of hands with prayer on persons without exacting any Covenanting or profession of the faith in order thereunto that they might receive the extraordinary gifts of the holy Ghost Thus the holy Ghost himselfe hath interpreted it in Acts 19. verse 6. when Paul had laid his hands upon them the holy Ghost came on them and they spake with tongues and prophesied and why it should not be thus understood whatsoever a learned man conceiveth to the contrary in chap. 8. 17. I see no reason considering the phraze verse 16. as yet the holy Ghost was fallen upon none but them a phraze I think peculiar to the extraordinary descentions of him in those dayes as also that had been onely to have strangthened them in the truth against persecution as Simon could hardly or not so easily have seene that so presently as v. 18. so would he scarcely have thought it worth his money wherewith he thought to have purchased that gift of God verse 19 20. In this extraordinary sense of the holy Ghost I am also apt to conceive of imposition of hands Heb. 6. 2. with great respect to that most ingenious and elegant glosse of the Reveverend authour of the first Epistle to the exercitation yea from this very Text I humbly conceive the Ancients took their usual formes of speech of enlightening and receiving the holy Ghost referring the first to baptisme and the last to laying on of hands and truely methinks this same reference is even percevable in the Text it selfe being vid. Heb. 6. 2 4 once enlightened seeming to relate to Baptismes and being made partakers of the holy Ghost to laying on of hands 2. Secondly if we look upon laying on of hands as it was used Confirmation as used in times next the Apostles in the times next and immediately after the Apostles or as soone as we reade of its use in the Churches after the times of the Apostles we finde not that I can yet discerne any examinations or confessions immediately preceding it or coming between baptisme and it we do not finde that children were called at ripenesse of age

to ratifie what had been promised by the susseptors on their behalf at their infant-baptisme we do not finde that children borne in the Church and baptized in infancy were after baptisme stiled catechumeni or confirmed when they came to yeares of discretion to answer for themselves much lesse in that great and solemne way wherein we are now desirous to do it Onely this we finde that generally such as were baptised were confirmed immediately after their baptisme in which confirmation the party was presumed to receive the holy Ghost by prayer and imposition of the hands of the Bishop all which is most easie to evidence The Bishop onely might lay on hands in this work they thought because none but the Apostles did Igitur hoc erat in Apostolis singulare unde praecipuos non alios videmus hoc facere Chrysost in Art 8. 14. who therefore came down to Samaria on purpose to confirme Philips converts Acts 8 14 15 16. they presumed the receiving the holy Ghost thereupon Impositionis manuum per quam creditur spiritus sanctus ac●●pi posse I conceive because so did those upon whom the Apostles laid their hands this they did immediately after baptisme too or as soon as they could conveniently it may be in allusion to the instance of our Saviour upon whom as soon as he came out of the water the text notes the holy Ghost descended Mat. 3. Exindè egressi de lavacro perungimur benedicta unctione c. Te●t lib. de baptismo Ita vocat Augustinus Sanctum dicit Chrismatis Sacramentum ut baptismus quia ipsi erat annexum Rive●us Ceremoniam confirmandi veteri ecclesiae per plura secula fuisse ceremonialem ritum baptismi non pe●uliare per se Sacramentum Amesius Tam certum est unum idemquo Sacramentum fuisse reputatum ut effecti Baptismi Chrys matis promiscuè describuntur Chamier panstrat de Sacrament c. 11. s 3. l. 4. as also to those a Apostolical Intergatory's Act. 19. 2 3 4 5 6 to which they soone added the unction in allusion as Tertullian notes to the oile wherewith the Priesthood in the old discipline were wont to be anointed Wherefore methinks Rivet and Ames and Chamier had great reason to judge as they did viz. that the laying on of hands in the ancient Churches was not an Ordinance much lesse a Sacrament distinct from Baptisme but a thing annex'd unto it especially for that nothing of so great a moment as Baptisme is might be done in the Church whether by such as had power to do it or such as had none without the consent and hand of the Bishop for the ratifying of baptisme in case it was dispensed by such as had no power and otherwise for the unity of the Church the honour of its Government and the giving as before the Holy Ghost as History notes Now if I do understand my authour he will hardly allow of any thing in these primitive practices save the ceremony of imposition of hands it self 1. For the laying on of hands now in order to the giving of the Holy Ghost in the first extraordinary way according to the manner of Apostles of Christ in Scripture our Authour hath given his sense of it in these words This expression saith he of giving and receiving the holy Ghost was still continued and made use of because the Apostles by imposition of hands did conferre the Holy Ghost which though none after their time did or could do c. 2. And for the practice of the Churches afterwards confirming even Infants immediately after Baptisme confirming the Adult without exacting any new confessions in order thereunto restraining the work of confirmation onely to the Bishops or making confirmation onely a Ceremonial right of Baptisme as Ames affirmes the Churches of old did for many ages together indeed I know not which part here mentioned either our Authour or any other late Patron of this excellent Ordinance of confirmation would adhere unto or not reject 3. Lastly let us briefly consider confirmation as used or rather desired by the Churches of Christ of later yeares and we may yet more easily perceive both its great unlikenesse to that of old and its great aptnesse and likelinesse to prove if fixed upon its right basis and intended to its just ends a most excellent and profitable right of the Churches of Christ in the later ages Confirmation in this moderne sense pardon the expression Waldenses Calvina Chemnitins Bullinger Pareus Three special ends of confirmation seems to be desired for three most special ends and uses all which may seeme to be carried in the very word it selfe namely that the baptisme the graces and lastly the proxime right of the party in the Eucharist might hereby be confirmed and is principally intended for such as being baptized in their infancy not excluding others and being grown to years of discretion in the Church are competentes or desire to be partakers 1. To confirm baptisme with the Church in the Eucharist or any other high priviledge hitherto denied them 1. First such are therefore now to be called to confirme openly and in their own persons that which their susseptors engaged for them at their first infant-baptisme according to our own Lyturgy noted by our Authour Confirmation saith it ought to be observed because when children come to riper age and shall learne what and how great things their undertakers did in their name promise in baptisme they themselves ipsi proprio ore proprio concensu publice eadem agnoscant Vel rata habeant a Erasmus phraze is confirment they themselves should openly and with their own mouth and consent acknowledge and confirme the same upon this now I conceive confirmation may be rightly said to confirme baptimse this act of confirmation is properly the parties own act 2. Secondly another great end and use of confirmation to 2. To confirm grace such is that by meanes of this solemne profession together with the publick earnest prayers of the Church the graces of the pe●son may be strengthened and confirmed or that he Fieret publica precatio pro illis pueris ut Deut Confirmare dignaretur may receive the grace of confirmation let there saith Clemnitius be publick prayer made for the children that are confirm'd that God by his holy spirit would vouchsafe to guide preserve and confirme them in this profession therefore the Waldenses appoint confirmation to be done in stabilitatem confirmationem fidei Now this is Gods act properly as the first was the parties own 3. The third and last great use of this Ordinance is to declare To confirm right in the Supper and confirme the parties proxime and immediate right in the Lords Supper c. which the party had before indeed by inward qualifications or at least appeared so to have by a good profession this now is more properly the Churches act and that which me thinks is a great deale more intended by those that strive

hardest after this Ordinance then the two former especially by our Authour hereby the party is admitted out of the Infant into the Adult estate and received into full communion By confirmation say the Waldenses is forthwith given Confirmatione protinus data est c. Nemo ad sacroSanctam communionem priu admittatur quam catechismum dedicerit confirmatus sit full power of communicating in the body and blood of Christ with all the faithful for none according to our own Lyturgy is to be admitted to the holy communion before he hath learned his catechisme and be confirmed viz. in his right therein Now for confirmation as to these three last uses for which it is now onely desired I shall crave leave to signifie mine opinion very briefly of First I conceive it is not to be found in expresse command or example or in any expresse mention or words in Scripture what the confirmation of Apostolical practice was we have already noted and yet I beleeve it was not like to this Secondly though the eminently Learned and judicious Calvine and some other very worthy Divines are very peremptory that this kinde of confirmation was in use in the Ancient Church I confesse though I have earnestly sought it and desired to see it in some ancient Writer I could never yet be made so happy neither did I ever yet see any words cited or pretended to be cited out of any such ancient Authour that did offer any thing like it viz. the admitting such as were baptized in Infarcy when growne of age upon their personal publick profession and engagement into farther communion with the Church by the coremony of imposition of hands and prayer What the ancient confirmation was hath been already intimated Thirdly yet I rejoyce to acknowledge that this moderne confirmation for the three great uses mentioned is not onely agreeable to the common principles of nature and reason but that likewise it is juxta consensum Scripturae according to the consent of Scripture as Chemnitius teacheth Fourthly which consent of Scripture hereunto is I conceive not onely negative but positively given in such general commands as require all Church-dispensations and more expressely those of discipline to be directed and leveld at edification for I doubt not but that such a confirmation may be piously used and to the edification of the Church as Chemnitius also affirmeth as a meanes most happily accommodated to this great end Fifthly therefore I must have leave to say that I verily beleeve after these my small endeavours upon the point that our Reverend and most Worthy Father Master Hughes hath hit the very white and that if this kinde of confirmation which is now sought for or that way of examination which many practice by some also termed a little more mildly a minister●al conference which are all one for substance cannot stand upon his or such like grounds they will stand no where but must fall at last Sixthly moreover were the late superstitions and formallity removed as all good men must needs wish and the stated effects and provisoes allowed as I cannot but desire and the present season and temper of our people duely considered and found to be receptable of it which I am willing to hope I do here most solemnly judge that confirmation might prove through divine mercy a most effectual mean as of the edification of the Church so of reconciliation of the much to be lamented differing brethren and therefore to be both piously and charitably desired and not onely coldly and faintly to be wished but by all the lovers of truth and peace earnestly prayed for and seriously endeavoured both as a most needful and seasonable Ordinance Seventhly yea though after all due paines and endeavours used we should not be able to reconcile our principles in every point if yet we can meet in the same practice about confirmation though on some small differing grounds why may not the Church be happily edified and the peace thereof in a measure obtained by such an unity uniformity in practice while the persons differing but in lighter matters may wait upon the Lord in this good service for the great blessing of unanimity promised also May it be still provided I humbly offer first that confirmation be not thought to have any ingrediency into the nature or being of our membership Secondly that the temper of the people be found such as will admit of such a change without any dangerous disturbance among them threatening more hurt then sober men can rationally expect advantage to the Church thereby these methinks have some weight in them and may not be reckoned among the lighter matters 8. Lastly for the Ceremony of imposition of hands I cannot beleeve it to be so necessary as the substance of confirmation alre●dy declared is though with Chemnitius I doubt not but it may be added here without superstition especially when the substance of the work shall rather receive solemnity and reverence then disgrace or prejudice thereby as Calvine intimates it did of old to the end this action saith he which otherwise ought deservedly to be esteemed grave and holy might have the more reverence and respect Quo autem haec actio c. Inst l. 4. c. 19. s 4 the Ceremony also of imposition of hands was added to it After the Learned Doctor Hackwell I am apt to judge this ceremony of laying on of hands to arise from natures fountaine and thence to spread it self over all the world by universal custome Man-kinde being as it were prompted by nature to solemnize any great honour to be conferred on a person with this ceremony both Jew and Greek and the Church of God have taken it into common practice upon all sch occasions as is most apparent both in prophane and ecclesiastical hystory is And upon this ground with some special allusion to the practice of the Apostle who its like took it up from the former natural and universal custome with Jewes and Gentiles when they conferr'd the Holy Ghost I presume the Churches afterward annex'd it as a right to confirmation However if this kinde of confirmation be not found in Scripture this right of it imposition of hands as relating to it cannot be found there wherefore we can onely say this of it that it is a decent ecclesiastical ceremony as Luther calls it solemne and laudable and very fit to be added in confirmation when general prejudice or any other extraordinary impediment doth not prohibit it or when it is not likely to lose its end We propose two ends at present of setting up the practice Two ends of now de●●ring confirmation of confirmation the Edification of the people and Reconciliation of Brethren in the Ministery give me leave to present unto you a double Consideration hereupon First whether imposition of hands added in confirmation by us now may not grate upon popular prejudice and hinder somewhat the first of our ends Secondly whether some worthy brethren who do not at all scruple the substance of the action but are haply ready to joyne with us in it yet because they see not that imposition of hands was ever used but but by a Bishop may not be stricken off further from us should we venture upon it and thus far we should faile of the other of our ends I dare conclude that neither of those two great patrons of confirmation Calvine or Chemnitius doth lay such a stresse upon imposition of hands therein but that the substance of the action being solemnly practiced this ceremony of laying on of hands in such a case as was now proposed may yea ought to be omitted I had thought to have added a fifth proviso namely that the children of such as are baptized and do usually joyne with us Prov. 5. Children of the non-confirm●d to be bapt●zed in attendance upon the worship of God though they be not as yet confirmed be not denied their Infant Baptisme this also seems to be granted us in our Reverend Authours own principles our Authour questions not the membership of such parents yea p. 54 60. further he argueth that such though appearing unworthy of confirmation through ignorance or scandal they are not to be excommunicate or dismembred He also asserts that children are p. 25. with 53. baptized by vertue of their parents membership Thus hence we might be bold to reason where there is membership in the parent there the childe may be baptized if children are to be baptized by vertue of their parents membership But there is membership in such parents as are baptized and not excommunicated nor to be excommunicated Therefore the children of such parents may be baptized and that regularly as p. 53. our Authour addes according to the Word FINIS

into the adult estate 2. That the children of beleevers are themselves the subjects of their own right in the Church and baptisme and consequently are considered and taken into Covenant as distinct from and not in their parents are endeavoured to be cleared as occasion was administred in the Treatise The first of them I have just now briefly touched a●so for the latter of them a word or two and I have done with this second proviso Foederal right hath respect either unto the meanes and way of its conveyance which is the parents membership as our Reverend Foederal right respects the way of convaiance and the subject of it Authour affirmed or to its seat and subject which I conceive can be no other but the childe it self as distinct to its parent Right is an accident and what can be the subject wherein it inhereth but that of which it is predicated it is not the fathers but the childes right of which we are speaking and therefore the child and not the father is the subject of it The promise its true is first to the parent then to the child Credunt infantes unde ●r●dunt quomodo credunt fide parentum Aug. Tom. 10. p. 421 Octavo yea it is to the childe by means of the parent yet it is to the child as distinct from his parent it is to you and then to your seed by you but yet to your seed as well as you and you and your seed are distinguished in the Covenant and not confounded or one involved in the other and consequently the right in the promise accordingly An estate is made to me and all my children now as soon as my children are in being they are as distiguished from me in this conveyance and by vertue of this their interest distinct from mine they shall possesse when I and my right with me are dead and thus it is in the heavenly conveyance therefore the promise is to the childe the childe is holy the childe is borne to God the childe is in the Kingdome of heaven the child is to be baptized as distinct from and as well as the parent Thirdly I crave leave to enquire also why such as are at years and not confirmed proving scandalous are not to be dealt with as Prov. 3 All church members liable to church censure scandalous Church-members viz. by Church-censure otherwise should the peoples crossenesse prejudices or any thing else unhappily prevent the desired recovery of confirmation among us we are like in a while to lose all discipline with it but let it be seriously weighed are not such persons within who will say they are without and they must be one of the two or else the Apostles enumeration is defective yea are they not within by Birth 1 Cor. 5 12 Baptisme Education and profession else why should they if capable have been confirmed for who would confirme them in a state without the Church where there is no probable salvation But the doubt is not whether they be within but whether they should be liable to Church-censure but is not a brother and one Proprium adaequatum objectum hujus censurae est scandalum datum a fratre de consc p 252 within all one 1 Cor. 5. 11. is not the scandal of a brother the adequate and proper object of censure as Ames or rather with the Apostle are not such as are within quatenus within consequently all that are within liable to the judgement of the Church are there any without that she doth judge or any within that she doth not and what judgement doth the Apostle meane if not excommunication 1 Cor. 5. 12 13. Is there any room in Christs house not under his keys any part of his Kingdome not under Scepter or any forme in his Schoole not under his rod or any offender therein that may not need it which if spared may not endanger and if used may not save the childe and others too yea indeed what one end of discipline is there that may not as well be attained by the application of it to the scandalous not confirmed as to the scandalous that are confirmed Obj. I humbly conceive that though they never had actual right to the Lords Supper or other the priviledges of compleat members and therefore they are not capable of being cut off from them by excommunication yet they are capable of being cut off if they are on the stock and to be cast out if they be indeed within Answ Indeed a man that never was invested with it cannot be cut off from an actual right in those higher priviledges of Church-members yet even from these a person not confirmed may doubtlesse be cast further off by Church-censure then he was As of old the competentes offendi●g w●re no● cut off from the actual enjoyment of the Eucharist which they had not yet f●om Prayer which they h●d they were And again the audientes were not cut off from prayer which they had not yet they were from hearing being wholly cast out of what they had Vid. can 13. Concl Nic. cum can 5. Neo c●sar Synod ut postea before for before there was onely confirmation betwixt such a person and his actual right in those higher mysteries but now both repentance and confirmation without confirmation a man has a remote right to the Supper but by excommunication none will deny but his right will be set at a farther distance and made more remote Again there is no doubt more in the censure of excommunication then a bare cutting off from astual right in the Supper c. which members not yet confirmed are capable of there is a publick declaring against the person and the scandal that the sinner may be shamed and the rest warned a renouncing the offender as an Heathen and a Publican a debarring him of his claime which he ought to have made to confirmation and the Lords Supp●r with a judicial charging him that during his impenitency he expect neither as also a solemne casting him out of private fellowship with the rest of the members and to be marked and avoided by them if not also a delivering of him to Satan Such a course as this if wisely and with sincerity and courage proceeded in together with this Ordinance of confirmation Excommunication and con●i●ma●ion the b●st means of reformation are I conceive the best meanes we are capable of for Reforming our Churches at present yea this way of applying censures to all within our Churches whether submitting to examination or confirmation or not I dare venture to affirme will be found at last the most undoubted way of Christ for Church-reformation And the most undoubted way is excommunication while both examination and confirmation will be labouring in a cloud of vexatious controversie which yet the good Lord may in time dispel But as for imposition of hands in absolution I think the Churches intention did not refer it to imposition of hands in consirmation Imposition of hands in

absolu●ion had no reference to that in confirmation as if it were to signifie the restoration of those higher priviledges confer'd by confirmation but rather that imposition of hands being a ceremony universally added to solemnize any great and remarkable grace and honour confer'd on a person it was likewise introduced into absolution as to confirmation upon the same ground it having no more respect to confirmation in this Ordinance then to Ordination or any other great action that was usually adorned with the like ceremony Though I cannot but applaud the great ingenuity of my authour in this his very neat and uniform glosse I am the more confirm'd that the ancients intended no such thing by their laying on hands in absolution because 't is most evident that they had ecclesiastical censures even for the catechumeni nondum baptizati the catechumens none yet baptised and much rather for those that were baptized though not yet confirmed de catechumenis denique qui prolapsi sunt statuerunt tribus annis eos à Catechumenorum oratione s●p●ratos postea recipidebere Cent. Magd. 4. c. 6. p. 426. l. 44 therefore they appointed that if any of the Catechumens proved scandalous they should be separated from the prayer of the Catechumens for three yeares if it be demanded qui statuerunt Ruffinus tells us these words before recited are punctually and expresly the thirteenth canon of the counsel of Nice with which the Neocaesarian Synod in their fifth canon do well agree Catechumenus inquit id est Audiens qui ingreditur in ecclesiam stat cum catechuminis si peccare fueri● visus figens genua andiat verbum ut se abstineat ab illo peccato quod fecit quod si in eo perdurat objici omnino debere if a catechumen shall be seen to sinne he shall heare the word kneeling upon The Centurists note some difference between the Greek book and that of Ruffinus touching the censure of the catechumeni on his knees that he may leave his sinne but if he harden himselfe and continue in his sinne he shall be wholly cast out The Greek book of the Nicene canons the Centurists have observed to differ somewhat from those of Ruffinus collection and indeed it differs from it in this thirteenth canon about the censure of scandalous catechumens expressing it a little more plainly placuit hoc Sancto Magno concilio de catechumenis qui lapsi sunt ut tribus annis inter audientes verbum sunt tantummodo post haec vero orent cum catechumenis it pleased this holy and great councel concerning the catechumens who have sinned that for three yeares they abide among those who heare the Word onely and after that time they pray with the catechumens Give me leave to note a little difficulty here the counsel stiled A difficulty touching the audientes and competentes the Neocaesarian maketh catechumenus and audiens all one the Nic●n● counsel makes the state of the audientes to be below the state of the catechumeni into which these are cast back by Church-censure int●r audientes The former also makes the Censure of the catechumeni consist in the manner of their hearing figentes genua the latter makes it to consist in being cast from a state of Prayer to a state of hearing onely But the difficulty vanisheth by noting a distinction we finde Catechumenos duplices facit Rabanus l. 1. c. 16. de cler instit alii enim simpliciter catechumeni dicuntur ac erant ii qui audicbane discebant doctrinam fidei alii vero competentes qui jam so baptizari petebant Cent. 9. c. 7. p. 291. l. 50. of old made of the catechumeni some were properly audientes some competent● viz. such as desired baptisme So I think there was a difference in the censure belonging to them the audientes sinning were to hear figentes genua a continuing obstinate to be wholly cast out the competentes sinning were to be put back again inter audientes that is to loose the place of prayer to which it seems one sort of the catechumini viz. the competentes were admitted and the other viz. the audientes were not being audientes verbum tantummodo the Neocaesarian couns●l ●eeme to provide censure for the first viz. the audientes making them and the catechumeni all one and the Nicene counsel for the second viz. the competentes making these and the catechumeni one as may with easie observation of the Reader appear The Observation I would make hereof is that there is no relation to the Church but it hath its proper censure and persons offending No relation to the Church but hath its proper censure cannot be ejected from what they have not they shall from what they have persons that hear and pray too shall if offending be debarred from prayer and persons that hear onely from that manner of hearing they do enjoy or wholly be cast out and why not those that hear and pray and communicate too if offending be first onely denied the Supper however there is no Church-state without a Church censure in the practice of antiquity yea and this censure may be safely called excommunnication also if we consult the sixty seventh Canon of the Eleberine The censure of the catechumeni may be stiled excommunication counsel concerning the catechumeni prohibendum ne qua fidelis vel catechumena an t comicos aut viros scenicos habeat quecunque hoc fecerit a communi●ne arceatur though applied to a person neither confirmed nor baptized if under atechisme for it it is there forbidden that any woman whether among the number of the faithful or yet under catechumenacy should marry a Plaier and if any should the same Church-censure is applicable to both and the chatechumena as well as the fidelis is to be driven from the communion of the Church or to be excommunicated And for that passage of Erasmus though an excellent yet a later writer that if such children as have been baptized when A p●ssage of Erasmus considered they are grown up do being demanded deny to ratifie those things which their God-fathers did promise in their name fortassis expediet c. perhaps it will be expedient that they be not constrained but left to their own minde till they repent and in the mean time nec ad aliam interim vocari poenam nisi ut ab Eucharistia sumenda reliquisque Sacramentis arceantur have no other punishment inflicted upon them but this onely that they be debarred from receiving the Eucharist and other Sacraments Here first it may be noted that Erasmus makes it onely a matter of expediency not necessity 2. That also is much weakened with a fortassis perhaps it may be expedient to let such alone and perhaps it may be expedient at least in some Ages and some cases yea necessary to inflict a higher censure on them 3. Yea Erasmus doth more then intimate that the driving such as will not be confirm'd from the Supper and other