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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00639	A defence of the reasons of the counter-poyson, for maintenance of the eldership against an aunsvvere made to them by Doctor Copequot, in a publike sermon at Pawles Crosse, vpon Psal. 84. 1584. VVherein also according to his demaunde is proued syllogisticallie for the learned, and plainlie for all men, the perpetuitie of the elders office in the church.	Fenner, Dudley, 1558?-1587, attributed name.; Stoughton, William, fl. 1584, attributed name.; Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624, attributed name.	1586 (1586)	STC 10772; ESTC S112582	18,117	32

accusations their iust rebuke their carefull ordination are set downe as common to both sortes though as in the first of honor so in the rest the teaching Elders are especially to bee regarded Lastly they can finde no cōmandement reason or other groūd in the scripture why the Pastor in his place shuld be perpetual but we will bring the like for the Elder in his One is more necessarie wee graunt but not more perpetuall then another as the eye or the tongue or the hand is more necessarie thē the foote the right ones more then the left yet alike ordinarie perpetual These are our reasons to proue thē perpetual which being set down for the vnlearned more grosely we will also set thē down with some other in syllogismes that he may the better deale with them out of Rom. 12. No mēbers of Christes body hauing actions for the profit of the whole may be thrust out or put to an ende by any humane authoritie The Elders and Deacons are such members Rom. 12.4 8. Ergo Al offices whose giftes and proper actions are ordinarie and of perpetuall vse they are perpetuall The offices of Elders Deacons ar such as whose giftes of abilitie to gouerne distribut actions of distribution and gouernement are perpetuall by their owne graunt Ergo They are offices perpetual Out of the 1. Cor. 12.28 No offices whiche God hath once set in his Church may be put to an ende by humane authoritie But the offices of Elders Deacons haue bin once set in the Church by God Ergo they may not bee putt to an ende and consequently are perpetuall Whatsoeuer offices haue the same cause of continuance are alike perpetuall though not alike excellent The office of teachers of church gouernors Deacons haue the same cause as the ordināce of god the cōtinuāce of their gifts of power of the church to cal thē 1. Cor. 12 Rō 12. Ergo they are alike perpetuall Whatsoeuer haue the like cause of ceasing and remayninge the cause of remayning being continued they remayne as the cause being ceased they cease But the offices of Church gouernors Deacons with the offices of Apostles workers of miracles haue the like cause of ceasing remaining to Wit the wil ordināce of God in continuing the giftes and the ordinarie and mediat calling of the Church for the one and his will in withholding the extraordinarie giftes and immediat calling of the other Ergo they do by the like cause remaine that the other are takē away Whatsoeuer haue the same general cōmādement and rules of examination traill ordination abdication honor reprose without speciall exemptiō for any are alike perpetual But the offices of teaching and vnteaching Elders and of Deacons haue the same generall commandement c. 1. Ti. 5.3 10. 1. Tim. 5.17.18 c. Ergo they are alike perpetuall Whatsoeuer offices are necessarie in euerie cōgregation for Discipline after the seconde priuate admonition they are perpetuall otherwise the remedie Christ hath appointed for sinners is not perpetuall But an assemblie of Gouernours in expresse wordes of Christ are necessarie in euery cōgregation for Discipline after the seconde priuat admonition Mat. 18.17 Ergo such an assemblie is perpetuall Whatsoeuer offices were ordeined for ordinarie and perpetuall gouernement of the Church vnder the lawe hauing continued frō Moses to Christ haue as the other offices of teaching exhorting bin newly increased and augmented by Christe to the Church vnder the Gospell those are perpetuall because there can be no cause so great found of altering offices of ordinarie giftes and vse since Christ as was betwene Christ and Moses But the office of gouerning Elders adioyned to Teachers and exhorters are such Ergo the assumption is proued by these places Leuit. 4.13 14 15. Where the Elders as bearing the person and sins of the whole congregation are distinguished from the Priest the Magistrate Iere. 19.1 Where the ciuill and ecclesiasticall Elders are distinguished 2. Chron. 19.8.11 Where for the matters of God to the Priestes and teaching Leuites are adioyned Elders Hesr 10.8 Where the counsell of the Elders for excommunication is ioyned though distinguished from it with the counsell and decree of the Princes touching confiscation of goods Nehem. 8.5.8 Where the Elders in gouerning the Assemblie are distinguished from the Priestes and teachinge Leuites For counsell they are adioyned euen with the Prophetes 2. Reg. 6.32 Out of the newe Testament the places are pregnant and many Act. 4.5 6.12 5.21 Act. 13 15. 18.8 So that this proueth the ordinance and continuance of them from Moses to Christ That Christ cōtinued them and augmented them with giftes as he did the offices of teaching and exhortinge the place of Mat. 18. Tell the assembly and if he heare no● it lette him bee a Heathen and publicane doth proue it for by vsing expresse wordes proper to that order of theirs hee doeth manifestly establishe it The places whiche haue proued them ordeyned in the Church proue this point also Lastly them selues graunt Christe ordeyned such only they denie them to be perpetuall Nowe if they demande humane witnes what can they haue more cleare then that Ignatius who as they say was S. Ihons Scoller writing to seuen Churches in euerie Epistle speaking only of such offices as were ordinarie and perpetuall Bishopps Elders and Deacons doeth say as hath bin alledged that No Church can be without her Eldership And least any man should say he ment teaching Elders Lette them marke that hee defineth their office to be a Senate of Counselers and assistants to the Bishoppe in euery Church ouer which Bishop he acknowledgeth no Church-officer but Christ without which Bishop it is not lawfull to administer the Communion Baptisme or performe any action in the Assemblie His wordes are these· What is the Eldership but a holy Senat the Counsellers and assistantes of the Bishop And a little before The Elders are as the Senat of God and the hande and sinewe of the Apostles of Christ without these the elect Church is not no Congregation of Saintes without these Epist 2. ad Tralles Here the office is defined as consisting onely in gouernement That in the Sacramentes they might only assist the Bishop and not administer them or doo any publike action is manifest by these wordes It is not lawfull with out a Bishop eyther to Baptize or to offer or to prepare the offring in the Communion or perfect the gifte or distribution but that which seemeth good to him according to the good pleasure of God that what soeuer you doo may be safe and sure Ignat. Epist 2. ad Smyrnaeos and in the same Epistle Therefore let all things be done of you according to good order in Christ Let the laye men be subiect to the Deacons the Deacons to the Elders the Elders to the Bishop the Bishop to Christ as he to his Father In the time of Cyprian they remayned Ambrose when they

well the question betweene vs which is one these worde of S. Paule in 1. Tim. 5. The Elders which rule well are worthy of double honour especially those which labour in the worde and doctrine We say this place mētioneth two sortes of Elders one which doo onely gouerne in the Church the other which also are occupied in the ministerie of the worde He denieth this and sayeth it mentioneth onely two sortes of Preachers some whiche preach well and some which take greater paynes in it then others Thou seest the question betweene vs good Reader wherein thou mayest thanke Maister Copquot as we also doo for making his meaning playne without any feare For it argueth a good courage openly at Pawles crosse to iustle out the Arch-bishops interpretation to bring in his owne The Arch-bishop vnderstandeth it of two sortes of Ministers some that are Ministers but preache not some that preache and labour in the worde and doctrine Well did Maister Copquot consider that it was farre from the true meaning of the Apostle which neuer would account an ignorant Minister vnsauerie salte a blinde watchman a dumme Dogge and an Idoll shepheard worthie either of double honor or the name to rule well Well also did he consider that it was a small piece of gouernement to reade a fewe prayers or part of the Liturgie and to doo all as he is prescribed Vppon good reason he left that corrupt meaning I would he had as easilie receyued the full and proper meaning of the holy Ghost But let vs come to the matter in hande Hee thinketh him selfe iniuried that he is charged to haue learned his aunswere of the Iesuites which he had he saith from holy Fathers and Prophetes If you bringe the interpretatiō of the Prophetes for you we will put our hande to our mouth and giue glorie to the trueth and to you although we must still acknowledge that we redde it in the Iesuites papers before we heard it out of your mouth But how is it that we heare a sounde of Prophetes but finde the sentences onely of Fathers Lette vs examine them notwithstanding to see if they discharge you from being the Iesuites scholler The sentences which are alledged make nothing for you some are expreslie against you The first 2. are made to say Such Priestes are worthie of double honour as do rule well admit they say it but do they saye this place maketh two sortes of Preachers whiche is the question Haue you no other Fathers then these firste Yes Augustin Ciprian Ambrose Chrisostome these are worth the hearing let them speak S. Augustin saith They onely non bene praesunt whiche doo not labour in their calling Ergo the place of the Apostle is to be vnderstoode of Preachers only not of gouerning Elders I am not worthy for learning to beare Doctor Copquot bookes yet I know the man whom he now seeketh to confute would laugh at suche a reason For all that I will vouchsafe an answere Augustine in giuing no more for the interpretation of these wordes whiche rule well then that they do it which labour in their calling doth applie it no more to Preachers onely then to Deacons Kinges yea Shipmaisters who all must labour well in their calling Nay by vsing so generall wordes in interpreting the first part of the verse he manifestlie declareth that hee vnderstood it was general to both sorte of Elders both teaching and vnteaching and so he might applie it to which soeuer sorte of Elders he had occasion to speake of The same answere may serue the words which he sayeth are Ciprians who yet can not bee founde either so much as to alledge that place much lesse fully to interprete it And if he thinke that Ciprian was such an enemie of vnteaching Elders let him reade againe his Epistles and he shall finde almost in euery Epistle that hee is a great friende vnto them He will say peraduenture those Elders were preachers we answer it is not credible that in one Church there could be so many as hee there nameth and paynteth out especially in the time of persecution But to put the matter out of doubt his owne wordes are alledged where hee saith He with the Elders Teachers and Readers gaue the degree of a Teacher vnto Optatus Or if you will haue the reading as it is newly cast in a popish moulde Quando cum praesbiteris doctioribus lectores diligenter probauerimus Optatum inter lectores doctorem audientium constituimus when with the lharneder Elders wee diligentlie tried the Readers wee made Optatus amongst the Readers a Teacher of those who heare it shall make yet more against you because here Elders are not onely distinguished from Ciprian the Bishop of that particular church● as from the Pastor frō the teachers and readers but also from some other vnlearned Elders who although for gouernement they were apt men yet were not so learned as eyther they were fitt to reade in the Church or iudge of those who could reade and pronounce wordes and sentences according to their iust measure and proper grace We haue sifted Ciprian let vs looke in to Chrisostome He is made to say A good Pastor layeth dewns his life for his sheepe He doeth so saye but the name of shepheard both in holy and prophane write is cōmon to gouernours both ciuill and ecclesiasticall as well as to Teachers Further if one do wel marke the course of Chrisostomes cōmentarie in that place he shall finde him against you because when he speaketh of the firste part of the verse he vrgeth no necessitie of doctrine but comming to the second he sheweth that those kinde of Elders which are occupied in the worde are most to be honored because they susteine great labour in teaching His wordes are Quid est autem bene praeesse audi dicentem Christum Pastor bonus animam ponit pro ouibus Bene igitur praeesse hoc est nulli parcere illorum regiminis gratia maximè inquit qui laborant in verbo doctrina vbi modo sunt qui dicunt sermone doctrsna non opus est hos omnium maximè iubet honorari causamque addit dicens Nullum enim laborē sustinent that is What is it to rule well heare Christ speaking or telling it A good shephearde layeth downe his lyfe for his sheepe Therefore to rule well is this to spore none or nothinge for the sake of their gouernement especially sayth he those which labour in the worde and doctrine where are they nowe which saye there is no neede of the worde and doctrine and he commandeth that these be chieflie honoured and sheweth the cause saying because they susteyne much labour By all whiche is manifest first that the first part of the vers he vnderstādeth onli of gouernement for giuing the ful sēse of it he maketh it to be to spare none in respect of their gouernment so maketh with vs Elders which gouerne onely and Elders whiche also teache

Secondlie seeing he doeth by the seconde parte confute those who sayde there is no neede of doctrine he sheweth that although some are to gouerne onely yet some which must haue great honour must teache also Yea if he had vnderstoode your sense of this place he would haue saide vpon the first part of the verse All must teache well therefore there is neede of doctrine in euerie place this argument could not haue bin left out and had bin more necessarie if he had seene that to be the meaning of the Apostle Lastlie in confutinge by this reason their negligence because they must labor in the worde and not with yours because they must labour more then others he sheweth your interpretation neuer came in his minde Thus three of his witnesses haue done him much more harme then good What sayeth the last Ambrose sayeth Presbiters .i. Elders and those whiche gouuerne well both in life and doctrine deserue double honour of those who are vnder them Is this to proue that Ambrose vnderstandeth the place of Preachers only when besides those which gouerne both in life doctrine he speaketh of Elders and Auncientes If you wil say that and doeth not here couple diuers thinges but interpret only what reason haue you to proue it Seeing he doeth alledge the texte expressely as we doo What goeth before what followeth after to proue it Nay in the last wordes he would then haue saide They deserue double honour of those whom they teache but because hee woulde make it generall to both hee sayeth of those that are vnder them which may haue relation to both sortes of Elders If Ambrose had misliked this office or not counted it perpetual you had had some reason to interprete Et and by these words that is But seeing he calleth for it and cōplaineth for the decay of it as we doo seeing he proueth it by the same places wee doo his interpretation hath no coulor to mainteine it self The first is manifest by his wordes on 1. Tim. 5. Vnde Synagoga postea Ecclesia seniores habuit quorum sine consilio nihil agebatur in Ecclesia Quod qua negligētia absoleuerit nescio nisi fortè Doctorum desidia aut magis superbia dum soli volunt aliquid videri that is Whence also the Synagogue and after the Church had Elders without whose counsell nothinge was done in the Church which by what negligēce it is worne out of vse I knowe not vnlesse perhaps by the slothe of the Teachers or rather their pride whilest they alone will seeme to be somewhat The second is manifest by his interpretation of the 1. Cor. 12. which we alledge Hee hath set in his Church gouernors of which wordes his whole interpretation after he had spoken vppon the former wordes of the Teachers is Sunt gubernatores qui spiritualibus retinaculis hominibus documēto sunt There are also gouernors which with spirituall bridles order mē Where in saying there are also he sheweth besides the teachers there are also rulers and such as rule with spirituall bridles not with the ciuill sworde Thus the Fathers are heauie friendes to this interpretation It may be notwithstanding he can so confute our reason brought against his misinterpretatiō as we must of force yeelde it into his handes For triall sake therefore we come to his answere Wherein obserue two faultes whiche are generall then you may the better deale with the particular deceites of his answere The one is that he cleane passeth by one principall reason which is made against him and it is this If the Apostle had ment to haue made two sortes of Preachers hee should haue saide They which rule well in worde and doctrine are worthie of double honor especiallie those which labor in it or labor more th●n others but the Apostle hath no wordes nor circumstance to make the word doctrine cōmon to both For by what law of interpretation will you doo it Will you interprete Ruling by teaching gouernement by doctrine One diuers thing by another Is that to interprete or to confounde An other faulte is that hee repeateth the fourth reason but maketh no aunswere at all vnto it The cause peraduenture is for that it was concluded in a connexiue syllogisme not a simple or ●ategoricall I will therefore doo so much for the author or rather him as turn it to his liking Thus What soeuer is a common duetie of all Elders that can not be assigned by the Apostle as a proper cause of an especiall honor in some sorte of good Preachers But Copiazein to take great paynes in their office c. is a common dutie to all Elders 1. Thes 5.12 Heb. 1● 17. Ergo Copiazein to take great paynes can not be assigned of the Apostle as a cause of especiall honor in some sorte of preachers We will nowe expect his answere although without cauill he can hardly answere it Thus we haue beheld the common vertues of his aunswere let vs looke into the proper strength in the particulars To the second reason his answere is that is this interpretation they doo nothing lesse then make the Apostle go backward and not forwarde For this is our meaning which we giue saith he That they whiche labour are worthie of double honour they which do● not are worthie of none A sounde answere which is contrarie to him selfe and toucheth not the force of that obiected against him Shewe the firste It is manifest by that which after he saith that this place is ment of suche as preache well and of some that in preaching well take more labor then other Here he vnderstādeth it of those which take any paynes and setteth them against those whiche take none So he maketh the highest degree of honor due to that which if it be not done he saith is worthy of no honor How cā that deserue or haue an excelencie of honor which is cōmon to all that may haue any honor in their office Besides this cōtradictiō which is euident in his owne words he toucheth not the force of the obiectiō The obiectiō is Whatsoeuer sense maketh the Apostle in the second member of the verse giue more to the part then in the first to the whole maketh him go backward nor forward in his word especially But this sense of theirs maketh the Apostle giue more to him that laboreth in preaching which is but a parte then to him which doth it wel which is to do it with great paynes puritie wisdom zeale power soundnes fitnes many other things besides labor Therefore this sense maketh him goe backewarde not forwarde in his worde especially This reason is playne What saith the answer Doth it distinguish No. Doth it denie the first part No. What then It denieth the conclusion against all rule of reason Yet by what reason doth he denie it By giuing an interpretatiō which doeth not make either two sortes of Elders or of sincere preachers but only two sortes of preachers one good