Selected quad for the lemma: hand_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
hand_n	bishop_n	church_n	presbyter_n	4,517	5	10.4419	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A49134	Vox cleri, or, The sense of the clergy concerning the making of alterations in the established liturgy with remarks on the discourse concerning the Ecclesiastical Commission and several letters for alterations : to which is added an historical account of the whole proceedings of the present convocation.	Long, Thomas, 1621-1707.	1690 (1690)	Wing L2986; ESTC R1029	58,819	80

of Latitudinarian Principles yet they having hitherto lived in a Conformity to the Church as established we hope they will not give up any thing that is substantial with the Circumstantials for Decency and Order or if they do so it will be as pardonable in us of the Country to forsake them as for some of those eminent Divines that were joyned in Commission with them And I am fully perswaded that on making such Alterations as are said to be prepared by the Commissioners the Church will run the hazard of offending a greater number of more considerable persons than they are likely to gratifie thereby Object But such Alterations being made such as shall thenceforward continue to be Dissenters will be more inexcusable Ans This is not very probable because they will still say you have only taken off the lesser Offences but have continued the weighter Matters on their Consciences still viz. such as in their Consciences they account to be Sinful and their Conformity to them to be Damnable And if after such Alterations be established by Law and any Penalty be annexed for the Sanction of that Law the Legislators will be reflected on as Persecutors and their Laws as so many tearing Engines though I must needs say there never yet were such severe Penalties enacted against any sort of Dissenters though known to be Men of Atheistical and Antimonarchical Principles as against some Reverend Fathers and Members of the Church who are known to be Men of Religious and Peaceable Principles yet they quietly submit with a Deus providebit I may well presume that no Man living in Communion with our Church is convinc'd that there is any thing Sinful in that Communion now these being the greater and the better part I say with Dr. Beveredge in his Sermon to the Convocation p. 25. Neque ratio neque perpetua Ecclesiae consuetudo patitur ut pars toti praeferatur Neither reason nor the perpetual Custom of the Church doth permit that a part should be preferred before the whole And then nothing can justify the Dissenters from Schism in their Separation from us for as to things that are by them judged Inexpedient it is fit that the greater and better Part should judge of Expediency for the rest and not they for themselves or their Betters And if such Opinionative and Ungovernable People were for a while by strict Discipline taught the Duty of Self-denial as to things in their nature indifferent and how necessary Obedience to Superiours is in such cases which even they themselves do practice and in which sort of things only our Governours have Authority we might hope for an Uniformity and not otherwise And to this end it is very observable what Dr. Beveredge says in his Sermon p. 26. Antiquas novis mutare Legibus To change old Laws for new is alway dangerous unless such a Necessity constrain as is otherwise insuperable There was never any Church which hath not inserted into her Laws many things not contrary but beside those things which are in the Holy Scripture and having made such Laws do establish them by the Sanctions of Ecclesiastical Punishments p. 23 When therefore that Learned Doctor says p. 27. Vtrum Ecclesiae noslra c. whether our Church be obliged by a Necessity to change any thing that is by her Laws established is not his part to determine but Prudentis est and immediately adds This only I dare to affirm That if it be necessary to reduce wandring Sheep into Christ's Flock if to take off Scruples from the minds of weak Brethren if to allay Hatred appease Anger and as much as may be to suppress all Dissentions concerning Religion if to recall Ecclesiastical Discipline to its Primitive Vigour if to Defend and Establish the best Church in the World against the Assaults of Men and Devils if these things says he seem necessary to any Man it will also seem necessary to that Man to admit such Changes as he is perswaded will conduce to such ends so as the Change be made in such things only which our Church hath constituted by her sole Authority not in such as the Vniversal Church by her common Laws hath Established Here then we say that to alter the Episcopal Government to take the Power of Ordination from Bishops and place it in the hands of Presbyters to take away a Well-ordered Liturgy and bring in Extemporary Prayers for Publick Worship to give every Minister a Jurisdiction and Power of Excommunication and many other things without which some grave Dissenters will not be comprehended is more than the Learned Doctor will grant for of such things he speaks his mind impartially Has sub quovis praetextu vel extremis digitis attingere c. To endeavour the removal of these under any pretence whatsoever or to touch them with one of our Fingers is contrary to the Religious Care of all the Churches of God and of our own And to Abrogate or Reject that which hath been every-where and at all times observed is not to change an Ecclesiastical Rite only but the Church itself and to make it differ from all other Churches of God But what then is the Doctor 's Judgment concerning such Constitutions as are in the Power of a particular Church Ans This the Doctor determined p. 23. ut supra and again p. 26. A Change hath neither been wont nor ought to be made by any Church at any time unless some great Necessity do constrain thereto But of a change of what fort of Laws doth the Doctor speak That he tells us in the same Page Neque enim quispiam c. There is not any Man so skilful as by any Art to foresee how many and great dangers are like to arise by the change of incommodious Laws wherefore to change old Laws for new is alway dangerous unless such a necessity urge it as cannot otherwise be overcome and such as is so manifest to all that whoever seeth the Change may also see Summam ejus rationem necessitatem the greatest Reason and necessity for the Change even of those incommodious Laws To this I shall need to add no more than that apt Allusion of this Learned Doctor concerning the Obligation of Ecclesiastical Laws p. 19. As in this Kingdom there are many Corporations and inferiour Societies which have a Power granted them of constituting Laws for themselves and their Members with this caution That nothing be done or constituted by them which is contrary to the Statutes of the Realm the Common Law or any ancient Custom which beyond the memory of Man hath been introduced and received by the whole Kingdom and thereby hath obtained the force of a Law Now though this be in p. 20. applied to the Universal Church yet in p. 21. the Doctor applies it to particular Churches In quacunque provincia sitae sunt In whatever Province a Church is planted the Bishops and Pastors of that Province may as oft as occasion requires

tend more certainly and speedily to its Confusion than that out of the Church And this Schism is already in being and will not be remedied tho' all the Ceremomonies should be taken away it is therefore very imprudent causlesly to begin another Schism in the Church especially when it is not so much Conscience as Scruple and Prejudice on which the Dissenters dislike our Ceremonies for when for their Interest and enjoyment of beneficial Offices they were required to conform to the Publick Worship they did it notwithstanding the Use of Ceremonies and I know few of them who are not willing that their Children and Relations should conform for their advantage and therefore I shall not trouble the Reader with his impracticable Idea's for Accommodation and only say That more than what he proposeth hath been offered for an Accommodation but refused and that not without scorn Page 9. He comes to the business of Reordination and says They that have been Ordained by Presbyters though they are not against Episcopal Orders yet think it unlawful to renounce them and to be Reordained Answ This he confesseth to be against a late Act of Parliament yet in force which hath provided That none are to be admitted to Officiate in the Church of England without Episcopal Ordination for which reason if there were no other I cannot see how any Member of the Convocation can consent to it The first Reason which the Letter gives for it is That it was not so before Answ It was ever so in the Church of England except in some extraordinary Cases where Ordination by Bishops could not be had as in the Case of the three Scottish Bishops but here the Case is altered there being Bishops ready to give Orders ever since 1660 wherefore such as have been Ordained by Presbyters since that time may be said to do it in Contempt of their Authority in that Case nor were those that were Ordained before that time deprived of an opportunity to take their Orders from the Hands of a Bishop there being some still ready to confer them and many in the preceding Years did accept of those Orders from Bishops which argues that such as did not refuse it in Contempt or for their Preferment which was denyed to some because they had been Episcopally Ordained but the main Argument may be taken from Dr. Beveridge's Text 1 Cor. 11.16 If any Man seem to be contentious we have no such Custom neither the Churches of God for search all the Ecclesiastical Records and you will find that except in case of great necessity no Ordination hath ever been accounted valid but such as hath been administred by the Hands of a Bishop and if any did contest it they have been branded as contentious Persons This Country-Minister therefore assumes too much to himself to prescribe to the Convocation in so material a Point and urge Arguments for it when the Commissioners were only to prepare Materials for the Convocation to determine of But he pleads farther p. 10. Quod fieri non debuit factum valet Though it ought not to be done yet being done it is valid This is denied because both those Presbyters that gave it and these who received it were guilty of a Schism as much then as now for the Practice is still continued Episcopal Ordination being still to be had without any considerable difficulty And the Author grants that St. Hierome tho' pleading the Cause of Presbyters against Bishops yet grants that it was the sole Prerogative and distinguishing Character of that Order viz. of Bishops to Ordain His words are Quid enim non faciat Presbyter quod facit Episcopus excepta Sola Ordinatione And therefore the Salvo's which he makes for the sake of some particular persons against the constant practice of the Universal Church and particularly against the Law of the Land cannot be excused from being a Plea for the present Schism and the perpetuating thereof such Ordinations being still practised Page 12. He speaks concerning Declarations and Subscriptions the result whereof is That he perswades himself and I think he will not perswade many others besides those who already stand out that what is generally understood by those Subscriptions and Declarations ought to be more plainly expressed For if it be generally so understood already as he would have it what need is there to have it more plainly expressed viz. That the former i. e. the Declaration of Assent and Consent is to the Vse of the Common-Prayer the latter viz. Subscription to the Articles is as to Articles of Peace and Concord which he says is the Sense of Archbishop Laud as he understands it against Fisher p. 51. n. 2. And without doubt that of Archbishop Bramhall Schism guarded S. 1. C. 11 c. and Mr. Chilingworth's Answer to Charity Maintained But yet to maintain Schism and Contention he forms a Case after this manner Suppose a young Student not a Dissenter thinks of entring into Holy Orders and considering what he is to do meets first with the Declaration of his unfeigned assent and consent to the use of all and every thing contained in and prescribed by the Book of Common-Prayer among which he finds that the Apocrypha is to be read Of this Scruple we have spoken already Then he proceeds to the Psalms and comparing the two Translations finds some things inconsistent and sometimes the one to deny what the other affirms Ans And this Case hath been already seanned but to omit nothing of his Objections he adds That this young Man finds in the two Translations some things inconsistent and the one to deny what the other affirms and being to use both in the Desk he reads as Psal 105.28 They were not obedient to his word and in the Pulpit with the Hebrew and the new Translations he reads They rebelled not against his word To this I answer First There are many seeming Inconsistencies and Contradictions in that which he calls the Correct Translation namely from the Hebrew which have occasioned the writing of divers Books for the reconciling of them and none but such as are disposed to Atheism are offended at them 2dly This is such a Blunder as none but a Man wholly given to Contention and is able to read the Resolutions of Learned Men could be guilty of had he consulted but Mr. P.'s Synopsis on the place that the words LoMaru admits of an Interrogation and that is a vehement affirmation then the sence of this Translation Did they not rebel is as much as they did rebel against his word which is the same with the other Translation viz. They were not obedient or they rebelled against his word thus the Hebrew Translation agrees with the Septuagint And of this among other instances Mr. Poole gives one Exod. 8.26 we read will they not stone us when without the Interrogation it would have been translated They would not have stoned us but the Septuagint also agrees well with the Hebrew Translation for the