and his Priests and by the rest to set vp themselues in the very seat of Antichrist They pretend the glory of Christ and of Peter and Paul in the doctrine of the supremacy but it is the feeding of their owne pompous tyraÌ„nous ambition that in trueth they seeke in it In their swarmes of Monkeries Frieries they pretend wilfull pouerty and an vtter forsaking of the world and yet all the world seeth that to maintaine themselues therein in idlenes belly-cheare and al kinde of worldly and carnal pleasure they had houses like Princes and reueÌ„nues maintenaunces like great Lordes of the worlde They haue pretended that they vvould haue Emperours and Kinges in no case to giue Bishoprickes and benefices to preuent Simony whereas their practise hath made it cleare that their Popes haue taken that into their owne hands but to make the clergy more to stand at their deuotion and lesse at their Princes and that they theirs might vse that occupation and trade of Simony as most proper vnto themselues They pretende charity and compassion in their pardons and indulgences deuotion and care to relieue soules by their masses dirges and trentals and an intent to fray meÌ„ froÌ„ sinne by their doctrine of Purgatory but euery maÌ„ seeth that it is onely money or money worth that hereby they fish for The vnity of the church is pretended when they seeke to establish most their owne tyraÌ„ny the honour and glory of the church they say they seeke when it is most plaine that it is onely their ovvne glory and honour they care for In the maintenaunce of their doctrine of transubstantiation they vvould seeme marueilous deuout and religious in vrging of the letter and in captiuing their ovvne sences and reason thereunto whereas indeede that course they take that so their Priestes may grovve to honour and vvealth vvhiles thereby the people are made beleeue that they can make and offer their redeemer for the saluation of quicke and deade Deuotion to the Saints they pretend in teaching that they are to bee prayed vnto and vvorshipped but therein their deuotion is like vnto Demetrius his for Diana of Ephesus for if it were not for the gaynes they get by offerings vnto their shrynes they vvould not bee so hoate therein Their doctrine of penaunce caries a shevv of mortification but it is but thereby to triumph ouer the people at their pleasures and in the ende to make a gaine by changing their penaunce or by making them to beleeue that they vvill relieue them by their prayers pardons and masses To conclude I dare bee bolde to say that there is neuer a proper point of popery but the practise and profession of it would quickly grow very cold if that the maintenance thereof made not either directly to aduaunce their wordly credit with their followers or their lucre and commodity And therefore thou maiest see euen by this whatsoeuer they bragge of their Church and Religion that euen for these three reasons they both of euery wise state consequently also of thy selfe Christian Reader ought to be shunned and auoided These things then that I haue saied well considered and remembred I will now no longer detaine thee from taking a view of that which this notwithstanding Albine hath writeÌ„ either in the defence of this his Religion or to the disgrace of ours requesting onely this at thy hands that as thou goest thou wouldest take the paines without partiality to reade and confer that which I haue writen to answere him withall Chapter by Chapter with his booke And thus hoping that thou wilt doe I commend thee and thy study therein to the direction and good protection of God my selfe vnto thy harty praiers vnto him in my behalfe Thine in the Lord THOMAS SPARKE A Notable discourse plainely and truely discussing who be the right ministers of the Catholique Church writen against Caluin and his disciples by one Master Iohn de Albine called de Seres Archdeacon of Tolossa in France Duaci per Iohannem Bellerum 1575 The first Chapter CALVIN your Patriarch doth lay to our charge a great and an outragious boldnesse saying according to his opinion that we haue introduced or taken in hand the ministery of Iesus Christ without being called to it by him that did institute Aaron in the saied estate And because that he himselfe can better then I expresse his coÌ„plaint or accusation I thinke it best to set forth his owne writings which according to his disciples opinions are of great force vertue His words as you may read are these Seeing that the Papists heare S. Paul say Jn his booke of Jnsti cap. 18. Art 58. Hebr. 5. that no person ought to take vpon him or vsurpe the name and the honour of Priesthood but he that is called to it as Aaron was And that Iesus Christ tooke it not vpon himselfe but did obey the vocation of his father either they ought to shew that God is the Author and institutour of their priesthood or els they must confesse that they are not called of God seeing that of their owne boldenes they haue taken it in hande These are Caluins wordes by the which the reader may gather that Caluin doth enioyne vs to render him an accoumpt of our vocation And although that it be so L Si quis ad si ad leg Jul. de nil publ c. that by the Ciuill law one ought to try the right of the possession before he come to demauÌ„de it the spoyle as we are to him and his fellowes as touching our Temples and reueÌ„nues in many places ought to be restored againe before the suite proceede Yet releasing this that the law doeth alowe vs we are content to answere to his demaunde adding this request thereto that both you that are his disciples and he doe make readie your papers to answere vs the like as touching yours But before I proceede in mine answere vnder correction of a man that thinkes to haue such good eies me seemeth that his argument is but very simple to say that if we cannot shew that God is the authour of our Priesthoode that we should be constrained to confesse that it is not of God a Sophistry in taking that as spoken of your maner of calling to your Priesthood which he spoke of the Priesthoode it selfe Numb 16. 2. Paâ—al 26. seeing that without being called we take it vpon vs. For what reason is there I pray you in this for although it were so that of our owne priuate power and authority without being called wee should take it vpon vs it should not follow by that that it is not of God For by that reason one might say that God was not the authour of the priesthoode of Aaron seeing that Dathan Abyron and Ozias tooke it vpon them of their owne boldnes the which is not true And as touching this that he sayeth that our order of Priesthood is not of God we will proue that false
not be against himselfe Ma. 12. what were they to do els but according to that the God gaue theÌ„ and the places they had in vniuersities in the church to proceede to call the people yet froÌ„ those errors to the truth When fire shal take hold of a city or the enimy scale the wal in the night if the least burgesse shall giue an alaruÌ„ yea if it be but a straÌ„ger the watchmaÌ„ sleeping that should giue warning no maÌ„ would staÌ„d trifling in demanding by what title he did it but streight he will run to the water and to the wals and laie to his hands to preueÌ„t the mischiefe thanke him that gaue the warning And yet wheÌ„ the meÌ„ we speake of giue notice of a greater danger though it be as necessary to listen vnto them to be warned by them as the saluation of mens soules is yet they caÌ„not finde this wisdome and thankfulnes in men It should seeme by your standing thus precisely vpon the necessity of visible succession ordinary impositioÌ„ of haÌ„ds in theÌ„ the god shal send to teach men or els they may not be heard that either you haue not red or els that you greatly disseÌ„ble your knowlege that God hath vsed the ministry of diuers persoÌ„s that haue wanted those to coÌ„uert nations to lay the fouÌ„datioÌ„ of churches to doe very much good For Ruffinus in his Eccl. Hist 1. booke and c. 10. Theodoret in his 1. book c. 23. report that a captiue maiden did first kindle the light of the Gospell amongst the IberiaÌ„s who being the meanes first to coÌ„uert the Queene the Queene coÌ„uerted the King he wtout any orders as you call them taught his people the Christian faith so begaÌ„ the church there It is also writeÌ„ by Ruff. lib. 1â— c. 9. by Theodoret in the 22. c. of his saied booke by Nicep in his 8. book c. 35 that AEdesius and Frumentius brought thither being â—â—yes by Meropius a philosoper and there taken and preserued aliue when he and the rest of his company were slain growing after into good credit and authority there were the first means of the sowing of the seede of the Gospell amongst the Barbarians in the further India to the profession and exercises whereof especially Frumentius and that not onely after that by Athanasius he was ordained there bishop but before euer by any he was ordeined either minister or bishop was a notable effectuall meanes both to excite marchantes that came thither and to drawe the people of that countrey it selfe Moreouer Eusebius in his ecclesiastical history reporteth in his sixte booke and 19. Chapter that Origen taught publikely before he had ordination certaine bishops being present which when Demetrius Alexandrinus obiected as a fault to Alexander bishop of Hierusalem and to Theoclistus bishop of Caesarea they defended themselues by alleadging diuers such famous examples as namely of Euelpis Paulinus and Theodorus which in like sort had preached without the ordinary ordination Yea read Nicephorus 2 booke and 25. Chapter and he will tell you that vnder Constantius Antonie the heremite taught at Alexandria and that vnder Valens at Antioch Aphraatis Flauianus Iulianus being then but monkes who in those dayes were not reckoned amongst Clarkes at all for vnto Gregories time they were not accounted Clarkes did publickely preach and confute heretiques And yet these examples I alleadge not that I would be authour to anie when an ordinarie calling may be had to despise that and to take vpon them that function of the Ministrie without that lawfull ordinary calling for that were to disturbe the peace of the Church and to open a gap to much disorder and inconuenience but to this end to make it appear that the Church of God in former ancient times hath not so precisely and curiously stood vpon these points of visible succession and ordination for the iustifying of ones preaching the Gospel at al times and in all places as you doe For doubtles there haue beene times and yet may be as after that great apostasie spoken of 2. Thes 2. in other great ruines of the Church when it hath and may please the Lord to call men extraordinarily to this worke without either immediate locall or personall succession going before who as long as they preach but the trueth and otherwise the times be so corrupt that of them that haue authority ordinarily to call men to that busines such rather should be shut out generally then let into the ministrie are to be receiued heard and listened vnto as such whom the Lord of his mercy hath extraordinarily called himselfe The XIIII Chapter CAluin doeth alleadge to vs that the Apostles doe saie that no bodie ought to take vpon him the honour of the high priesthoode except he be called to it as Aaron was meaning by that to conclude that of our owne authority we haue vsurped the dignitie of Priesthood a And â—et to no purpose We haue answered him at large of our vocation by the succession of Pastours ioined with the imposition of handes I doe demande of him or of his if they can make any true answere to the like obiection You doe laie to our charge the all liues of our Popes and Bishops and the naughtinesse that you pretend to finde in our Preachers but all those inuectiues serue to no other purpose but to shew how you keepe b Nay you shall haue the bell both for that for prophane iering scoffing a learned schoole of railing the which preheminence we doe yeeld to you without any debate or processe for ye maie attribute that vnto your selues as your owne by right insteede of the imposition of hands which ye want But in one thing to my iudgment you are greatlie ouerseene and that is this c When you obserue this lawe your selues we wil learn of you Why doe ye not fill both sides of your booke in the one you set forth at large without omitting anie point of their ill doings al the naughtie lives of our Pastours and Bishops but the other sides of the leaues are emptie you should haue writen on them the holie liues of your Ministers succeeding one after an other this thousand and fiue hundred yeares When the Popes Bonifacius Gregorius did gouerne ill their Seats at Rome d I haue sufficiently answered this cap. 4. which were the good and holie ministers that did their duetie at Geneua When our Doctours did preach against God in times past in what part or vnder what sign were your Ministers lodged that did then preach the pure word of the Lord e Reasoned like your selues as though the Apostles neuer lawfully hid themselues from the fury of the persecuters if they did hide themselues they did not folow the pure word of the Lord the which you say is necessarie to know the true faithful beleeuers For Christ doeth saie Mat. 10. that hee that shal deny him before men him
nisi mittantur Howe shall they preach except they bee sent as â—t is written in the tenth to the Romanes and sent by them which haue authoritie to sende Did not Saint Paul for that purpose leaue Titus in Creete Did hee not also giue Timothie charge to laye handes too quickely on no man To these that bee thus lawefullie ordeyned and called to haue cure and charge of soules yee are bounde to giue an eare by these yee must bee ruled in matters of Religion and as obedient children to their spirituall fathers And this biddeth Saint Hierome writing to Nepotian o True and necessarie as long as the pastour is such as Paul wilde Titus to ordeine but this helpeth yours little Esto subiectus pontifici tuo quasi animae parentem suspice Bee subiect to thy Bishop and reuerence him as thy soules father The same lesson teacheth Chrysostome in an Homylie De recipiendo Seueriano where hee beginneth thus Sicuti capiti corpus cohaerere necessarium est ita ecclesiam sacerdoti principi populum As it is of necessitie that the bodie cleaue to the heade so it is likewise of necessitie that the congregation cleaue to their Priest and spirituall ruler and the people to their Prince And within a fewe wordes after hee alleadgeth for the confirmation of this matter the Apostle writing thus to the Hebrewes in the thirteenth Chapter p This rule is not general without exception For Christ hath saide take heede of false Prophets c. Obedite praepositis vestris obtemperate eis quia ipsi peruigilant pro vobis quasi pro animabus vestris rationem reddituri Obey them that haue the ouersight of you and doe as they woulde haue you for they watch for your sakes as they which shall giue accomptes for your soules This obedience doeth our Sauiour require of all men saying Qui vos audit me audit Hee that heareth you heareth mee This obedience to Christes Church hath continued thoroughout all Christendome time out of minde And if the authoritie of the learned and holie fathers ought to beare sway and preuaile as of right it ought to doe indeede Arrogantium enim hominum est maiorum suorum authoritatem aspernari se illis ingenio vel sapientia anteponere For it is the manner and property of proud arrogant persons to contemne the authority of their elders to prefer themselues before theÌ„ in wit or learning If the consent of all christian Regions should be regarded probâ—bilia saieth Aristotle in the first Chapter of the first booke of his Topickes quae videntur omnibus vel plurimis Those things are probable which all men or at the least the most part doe iudge to be so If the long continuance of time must be of importance In his enim as witnesseth S. Hilarie vpon the hundred and eighteene psalme tanquà m in coelo verbum dei permanet in quibus hoc verbum non offenditur In them doth the word of God abide among whom that worde is not offended a This is but a vaine brag that you haue these three as shall appeare I hope sufficieÌ„tly in the answer to Albines treatise For you haue not one of them in such sort as that thereupon you may conclude as you doe If these three I saie The authority of the learned Fathers The common consent of Christian Regions The long continuance of time may be a sufficient testimonie for the verity we haue the true Gospell the true sence of it b These are but shamelesse beggings of the things in question and onely your bare and therefore vaine words for none of them you shal euer proue true Our Religion is the very Christian Religion The order of Ceremonies that the Catholike Church doth vse is the right order Our fasting and praying is according to the Scriptures Our Church is the true and lawfull spouse of Christ from the which as many as seperate them selues they are no sheepe of Christes folde they are reprobate persons they are the children of Belial they are impes of hell c What then is the president of our next last fathers yea though for some hundred or more yeares such as we may not vary from The vanity of this argument see cap. 38. of my answere You knowe what order your fathers kept howe they liued and howe they beleeued You are not ignorant how you haue beene brought vp instructed and trâ—â—ned in the lawes of Christ Whosoeuer goeth about to infringe or breake any part of that d You must proue the order godly and laudable or else your assertion is false godly order of that auncient custome and laudable vsage he is an hereticke an enemy to God a murtherer to mans soule a disturber of the common wealth a subuerter of all honest discipline and therefore most vnworthy to liue among men I e This complaint hath most iust apparant ground especially amongst men of your owne faction though it cannot be denied but that euery where there is so lamentable cause thereof but yet this preiudiceth our religion which condemnes all imoiety no more then you would haue it to doe yours haue heard read and seene many things yet can I not reade beare or see any world more contaminate and prone to al kinde of vices then this our age is And howbeit afore our daies there haue beene in all times and ages men and women very vitious and monstrous in their liuing yet then vertue was vertue and vice was vice But now in our corrupt time wee haue lost the true names and vse of all things and vertue with vs is taken for vice and contrarily vice is counted for vertue They that bee studious of modesty obseruers of temperancie and louers of sobrietie they be now a daies called Pinch-pennies and such that hunger droppeth out of their noses f This is false amongst vs if by catholique you vnderstande as you should sounde and true religion If any be vertuous followers of the Catholike which is the true Religion they be called Pharisies papists The discreete man he is called an hypocrite and the small talker a foole and an ignorant person On the other side they that leade their liues in all kinde of riote they be called handsome men men of the right making and such as can tel how to keepe honest mens companie Againe the statelier that one goeth the â—igher that he looketh and the stouter and malapertlier that he speaketh be more is he praised among the worldlings for a wise man who will not â—uffer himselfe to be ouertroden and made a laughing stocke to euery rasâ—all With such vaine glorious praises be such proude Thrasoes extolled â—nd magnified of the more part and no small number are giuen to flatâ—erie and enhausing of Clawbackes that neuer could that saying of Teâ—ence be better verified then it is now Obse quium amicos veritas oâ—odium parit To holde vp mens yea and their naye in holding with
is such a thing for the vvhich in all the scripture they can finde neyther precept promisse nor example to leade them to vse it but to teach them to abhor it there they shall or at least may learne that inuocation is a speciall diuine poynt of seruice of such spirituall and high nature as that God challengeth it onely to himselfe that therefore neuer any holy man mentioned in the scriptures durst euer vse it to any other Indeede a man shall easily finde that ere Epiphanius time Sathan had taught the heretiques called Caians to worship Angels with inuocation of them and that likewise ere his time in Africke there were that offred to Mary the virgin and that in inuocating her and other saints were verie busy pretended great piety deuotion but withal he shal finde that he bitterly condemnes al that did so for heretiques vnder the name either of Caians Antidicomarianites o◠Collyridians Heres 38 78. c. that in as bitter manner as may be vsing the same speeches reasons against them that we doe now vsually in these daies against these Now where they would shift of the absurdity blasphemy of robbing God his sonne Christ of their due honour herein in saying first that their praying to the souls of Saints departed may aswel stād with their honour as the requiring of our brethren aliue to pray for vs then in affirming that they begge nothing at their hands but stil they conclude their praiers vnto them with this clause by the merites of our Lord Iesus Christ they cannot so escape or excuse themselues For neither doe they only desire the Saints departed to pray to God for them as we doe our brethren here whiles they liue neither do they alwaies remember so to conclude their praiers vnto them For in their office which they call the seruice of the blessed Marie there bee three prayers made vnto her wherein no lesse then eternall life is begged directly at her hands yet there this clause is quite forgottē The like may be obserued in many other praiers of theirs to them as for example in their praier to S. Osmund confessor in one to S. Anne and in an other to S. Katherin And if it were so that they so shut vp al their praiers vnto them what were that else then to make Christ mediator betwixt vs them For can we in any words more plainly acknowledge Christs effectual mediation betwixt vs and his father then by requiring all things that wee begge of his father per dominnm nostrum Iesum Christum by our Lorde Iesus Christ Then what is this else but for their pleasures to put him from his old office of being mediator betwixt God and man to make him nowe mediatour betwixt men and wemen aliue and the souls of other men wemen dead They say in their maner of praying they neuer cause the Saints any more to incroch of his office of mediation then wee doe when wee desire one another being aliue to pray to god for vs what say they then to that prayer of theirs in the name of Thomas Becket Tu per Thomae sanguinē quē pro te effudit fac nos Christe scandere quò Thomas ascendit That is O thou Christ by the bloode of Thomas which for thee hee shed make vs ascend thither whither Thomas is gone They knowe this is or was in their portuisse But if this be not plaine inough both to make it appeare that they pray otherwise to the Saints departed then we doe to thē aliue that in their praying to thē most blasphemously contrary to all holy ancient fathers iudgement consent of al Christian nations prescriptiō of al ages and the holy scriptures themselues marke Christian Reader these further presidents In the masse of the annuntiation they sing thus to Mary Salue virgo virginum mediatrix hominum all haile virgin of virgins the mediatrix of men and in the masse of the conception thus Tu spes certamiserorum verè mater orphanorum tu lenamen oppressorum medicamen infirmorum omnibus es omnia That is speaking to the same Mary Thou art the certaine hope of the miserable truely the mother of orphans the helpe of the oppressed the medicine for the sicke to all thou art all things Infinite such examples there be whereby it is most cleare that nothing can bee begged of God himselfe which they beg not of the saints that no title cā be giuē to god but they haue giuē it to one Saint or other Besids al this we must cōsider that the children of God being aliue are commanded to pray one for another that by speech letter or messenger they know how to acquaint one another with their minde whereas in praying to their soules after their death we haue neither commādemēt so to doe neither can we indeede persuade our selues that whatsoeuer we say vnto thē they heare and see our minds vnles we thinke now after once they be in heauen they are inuested in the very nature of God himselfe so are become aswell as he searchers scers of the harts raines which once to imagine because it is extreame blasphemy therefore their is infinite difference euen for these reasons betwixt desiring a Christian brother aliue to pray for vs the desiring of his soule departed but once to doe so much for vs. Againe if that were but all they doe in praying to the Saints departed then howsoeuer because of our frailty that sticketh by vs whiles we liue it were necessary one of vs to require that at the hands of another that so the better vve may performe the duety one to another yet their is not the like reason why we should so cal vpon them that are departed though they could heare vs for they being where they haue laide aside all frailty and forgetfulnesse of their dueties it being supposed to be their dueties to pray for their brethren sisters in Christ aliue we may be sure they will do it without our remēbring of them thus But now no more of these two points here for ca. thirty seuen I haue spokē againe somewhat largely thereof where I haue shewed both when and how these corruptions came in and who resisted them also Wherefore to goe on with cōfutation of the obiectiō which I haue vndertaken to answere concerning that point when and by vvhom the Romish religion came in and vvho spyed it and confuted it besides the pointes already touched amongst many other wherein we differ from them these are three principall for the which I account both them their religion Antichristian their doctrine of trāsubstantiation of images and vowed single life and yet in these they bragge of fathers consent of Christian regions and prescription of time as in the former To aunswere therefore both that demaunde concerning these pointes also and to strip them withall of that visard of antiquity and vniuersallity that herein along time
is none so simple but he may easily see that there is no necessary coherence betwixt this antecedent and consequent For Christ might haue and indeede hath had as I shew after in my fourth chapter by whō effectually from time to time he hath both continued his Church and his trueth therein though your Bishops Priests haue a long time shewed thēselues his most deadly Antichristiā enemies in opposing thēselues with main might against both his Church truth The matter you haue vndertaken to shew vs is by what right you exercise your ministery or how you were called to that estate for that as a thing more easy you rather haue chosen to doe then to proue your office of Priesthood it selfe to be of God though indeede this be the more material point which you should rather haue taken vpon you to proue but that it seemeth like a prudent man you tendered more your owne credit which you foresaw was like to take a foile if you should haue attempted to doe this which by no colour or shew of sound reason you could then the credit of your cause which you could not but foresee must needs lye in the dust this being left vnproued whatsoeuer you should say cōcerning the other But seeing whatsoeuer become of your cause it hath pleased you like a wise mā to slip frō vnder this burdē which was to heauy for you now that only thing that we must expect at your hāds at this time is to shew that your maner of cōming vnto them yet is honest good and lawful I pray you in good earnest consider and weigh with mee a little what you haue saied to proue this Al you say is as I noted before that you are called by the ordinary way thereūto that is as you expoūd your selfe by the right successiō of Bishops pastors by the continuāce of one Catholick faith deriued frō the Apostles to our daies wtout interruptiō of it vniuersally nothing at al you haue added that so much as sauoreth of any proofe of any one point of this your assertiō therfore seing your word is nor ought to be of more credit with vs then the bare partial word of an aduersary in his own case your frēds might haue thought themselues euen asmuch beholden to you if you had as wel giuen ouer the taking in hand to proue their maner of comming to their offices to be of God as you haue to proue the offices thēselues to be of his ordināce If you had mēt or at least could in earnest haue proued the thing you vndertooke you should haue first made it appeare what is requisite by Gods ordināce in the lawfull outward calling of the ministers of his Church then haue shewed vs that your Popes Cardinals Bishops priests haue alwaies doe stil so cōe by their offices but this was to haue dealt too plainely and in following of this course you knew wel enough you should be enforced too too openly to betray the badnes of your cause For who is there of any learning and reading but he knoweth that the ordinary way whereby these your officers haue come now these many 100 yeares to their roomes is as farre differing from the ordinary waie appointed by Christ for his ministers to come to their places by as the east is from the west You therefore like a wilie and subtle fox thought it no good pollicie this way to seeke to iustifie your calling or maner of cōming to your prelacies yet rather then you would seeme to be able to say no more for your maner of comming thereunto then for the offices themselues you were disposed you thought it good thus brauely and braggingly to set a face vpon it in these words as though you could saie enough and that makes your fault the greater You haue no sooner vttered this your bare and bold assertion which were somewhat if you could throughlie proue it but you are quite slipt gone into the proofe of another matter which though you proue yet your assertion is neuer the more thereby strengthened and confirmed For though we graunt you which alwaies we do most willingly that the Church of Christ hath alwaies had in her from her first natiuitie and shall haue vnto the ende successiuely in all ages in one place or other such as haue shewed the trueth faithfully vnto others as haue shined as lights in their daies set vpon a candlesticke and as haue painefully laboured and shall still to gather together the Saints to bring them to vnity and perfection in Christ yet neither doeth it follow that these haue bene so visible apparent glorious in the eies of al men that they haue so orderly succeeded one another and had their ordination one of another in one and selfesame place and after one and selfesame maner nor that hereupon it should follow that this hauing bene in any sort that then by and by it must be granted that yours haue entred the ordinarie way that they are right Bishops and Pastors haue had right succession alwaies one to an other and haue also which is the greatest thing of al had wtout interruption alwaies the sound catholicke faith continued amongst them For in some sort these might be in al ages and times that effectuallie to serue to these ends so far forth as stoode with Gods prouidence was according to the variable disposition therof sufficiēt to cōtinue his holy catholick Church according to his good pleasure yet not in that visible apparēt glorious maner that you pretēd some he might haue to enter into their callings to doe this the ordinary way though your Bishops Priestes haue not so entred be not right Bishops and Priests and be such as are destitute of al right ecclesiastical successiō both in respect of persons places times trueth And yet most euident it is to euery reader of anie iudgement that al your proofes in this Chapter in the rest that follow proue onely that God alwaies hath had hath will haue a Church and therin alwaies some teachers of the trueth and some learners and embraces of it And this the Lord hath had hath and euer wil haue though your ordinary waie of comming to your places though your Bishops and Pastors your personal and locall visible and glorious succession and your supposed Catholicke truth had neuer beene seene or heard of in the world Yea far more apparently and gloriouslie should we haue seene the trueth hereof if this ordinary waie of yours these Bishops and Priestes of yours this succession and counterfeyght trueth of yours had not in the iust iudgement of God for the sinnes of the world beene the stop let thereof And yet you either were so simple your selfe or else you thought you should onely meete with so simple a Reader as would account the prouing of one of these thus seuered and disioyned the one from the other the iust
neuer hauing proued either of these nor yet being able to doe it you should cōclude that your prescription against our doctrine which you call newe at your pleasure though indeede it be most ancient witnesse the olde testament and the newe much rather ought to take place then his in his time against heretiques that then taught diuerse basphemous heresies directly against the scriptures You say our Religion hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false pernitious heretique But you doe but say thus you proue it not nor euer shall For it was both heard and knowen many 100. yeares before yours was hatched and if euery one were so condemned that taught it then was Christ and his Apostles so condemned For vnlesse by scriptures we can proue ours to be the same that theirs was wee aske no fauour at your hands And as long as we can doe so the more we and our predecessours haue beene condemned by you the more we knowe we haue beene blessed of God Now whereas you say in this Chapter further that Irenaeus did withstand heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles adding your glosse that is to say by doctrine not writen but deliuered from hand to hand and so receiued from age to age frō the Apostles to that time therein through the ambiguity of the word Tradition craftsly you seeke to deceiue your simple reader and indeede you giue a glosse that corrupteeh the text For let that place of Irenaeus in his third booke and second Chapter be perused and that also which followeth in the third Chapter of the same booke though either you or the Printer mistaking it send vs to the fifth Chapter where the wordes are not which you cite and most euidently it shall bee proued that though Irenaeus haue there the words by you cited yet by the traditiōs of the Apostles which he speaketh of there he meaneth no doctrine nor points of doctrine as you doe vsually by that word contrary or besides that which was also taught in the word writen For the question was of God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ which Valētinian Marcion denied against whō he there sheweth that he fought first with the scriptures wherewith when they were vrged he saith they are turned streight into an accusation of the scriptures as though they were not right had not authority might diuersly be takē saying further that trueth could not be found of them by those that are ignorant of traditiō For the trueth was not deliuered by them but by liuely voice that therefore Paul saied we speake wisedome amongst them that are perfect not the wisedōe of this world And this wisdome to euery one of them saieth he is that which he himselfe hath deuised Of which heretiques their wordes yours when you are called to the touchstone of the scriptures are so like vndoubtedly you haue learned to plead against the scriptures for your vnwritten traditions Now when thus he had shewed how the heretiques in his time shunned triall by the scriptures and appealed to tradition he goeth on and sheweth that when he was contented to come to the traditiō of the Apostles kept obserued in the church downe from the Apostles to those times by succession of pastours then they resisted tradition also saying that they were wiser then either those pastours or the Apostles themselues and so indeede neither by the scriptures nor yet by making demonstration vnto them that the same doctrine taught in the scripture was also deliuered by liuely voice first by the Apostles and so receiued from age to age and continued in by those pastors of whose successiō he speaketh could stop their mouthes And thus any mā of meane capacity may perceiue that in these places Irenaeus his drift only is to shew the heretiques that the doctrine which he taught concerning God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ first was warranted by the Apostles writings and then also taught by them by liuely voice and so deliuered and continued from hand to hand amongst the faithfull pastours succeeding one another euen vnto that time And that he calleth this the tradition of the Apostles and not as you falsly expound him doctrine vnwriten beside or contrary to that which is writen as the Popish traditions you striue for bee if you had beene disposed you might haue learned in the 1. Chapter of the same booke where he saieth That which first they preached after by the wil of god tradiderunt nobis they deliuered vs in writing to be the foundation and piller of our faith And indeede it is an vsuall thing with the fathers of the primitiue Church often by the tradition of the Apostles to vnderstand the very same doctrine which is conteined in their writings Herein therefore so likewise in all other points in controuersy betwixt vs it is a cōmon tricke with you papists to vrge the fathers wordes quite contrary to their true meaning But because you first and namely bring in Irenaeus for your vnwriten traditions which is the window indeede that you would haue faine left open vnto you for then thereby you hope you may thrust in and vpon the Church what you list and so countenance thereby your Antichristian doctrine when all other shifts faile let vs see whither this cannot yet further be made manifest out of him He as Eusebius reporteth Hist Eccles lib. 4. cap. 14. saied that Polycarpe taught that one and sole trueth which he had learned of the Apostles quae Ecclesia tradit which the Church deliuereth forth Where of necessity by those things which the Church deliuereth by tradition that he there speaketh of you may not vnderstand any other but those which haue warrant from the word writen and in no case those things that are besides that or cōtrary thereunto for then hee would not haue called that which Polycarpe preached the one and sole trueth for questionles those things are true that are conteined in the scriptures And this clearely appeareth if you marke the wordes as they are in Irenaeus himselfe in his 5. booke 20. cap. that Eusebius hath relation vnto which are these Polycarpe did mention or teach those thinges which he had heard of the Apostles that is all things agreeable to the scriptures Againe the same Irenaeus in his 3. booke and 3. cap. which is one of the Chapters by you before alleadged saieth that vnder Clement the Church of Rome wrought to the Corinthians shewing them quam traditionem what tradition of late they had receiued of the Apostles that is to say that God the father almighty and so forth as is expressed in Moyses is the father of our Lord Iesus Christ And that he is so taught to bee of the Churches saieth hee they that will learne may by the Scriptures and so they may vnderstand the Apostolique tradition of the Church Where it is most cleare that he telleth vs himselfe
thing that we holde teach and preach as much as you You doe therfore but abuse your reader in going about to make him beleeue that we reiect your Bishops onely for their lewde liues whereas the thing especially that we condemne both you and them for is your Antichristian doctrine It is well that when you haue saied what you can for your line of Popes yet the consideration of the oft interruptiōs of their succession by schismes and otherwise you are glad in the ende to giue vs this note that when you talke of succession of Bishops and pastours you meane not onely them but all other Bishops and pastours of your Church in whom the succession hath beene continued whensoeuer it was interrupted in the other For hereby in effect you doe acknowledge that you meane not nor thinke it wisedome to leane too much to the successiō of them least they let your building fall Wherein I preferre you yet before Stapleton in that herein the trueth of the manifold interruptions of their succession seemeth to haue preuailed more with you then with him For he writing against Doctor Fulke of this matter of succession though hee saieth hee will not holde succession in the same places and sees to haue continued generally yet in this particuler line of Popes onely hee thinketh that safely he may You are also to be commended for acknowledging dissentions to haue beene betwixt your Popes and Antipopes themselues and in leauing them without defēce for their lewd liues ambition and negligence euen to answere for themselues For indeede as it cannot be denied but that these thinges most monstrously haue beene found in very many of them so you could not haue had any honesty in smothing of their faults Yet you go some thing to far in saying that their dissentiōs were not preiudiciall to the vnity of faith held before For how could it be that one part of the world ioyning with the Pope the rest with his Antipope or Antipopes it being an article now of your Catholique faith Boniface 8. de maioritate obed Cap. 1. vnder paine of damnation to be beleeued that al soules must submit themselues to your Pope as to the Supreame head of the Church but that these for many yeares togither banning cursing each others faction thereby the vnity of faith was not onlie troubled but maruellously broken The IX Chapter NOw seeing that we haue yeelded you a full accompt of our vocation to the ministery if we may be so bold I thinke it is no great presumption to demande the like of yours a Caluin neuer thus reasoned therefore you play the papist with him that is you bely him For euen as Caluin hath heretofore called vpon vs to haue vs proue that we are the Children of God or otherwise he would absolutelie affirme that God cannot be called the authour of our vocation to the ministery We say likewise that if you doe not shew the like of yours you shal giue vs leaue although it be against your willes to saie that yours commeth not from God but from the procurement of his aduersarie Tertullian b Wee know hee spoke against such heretiques as you Papists bee who as you know aboue 1200 yeares agone speaking against such as you are in his booke de praescrip haeret doeth write these words Edant origines Ecclesiarum suarum euoluent ordinem Episcoporum suorum per successiones abinitio decurrētem Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae cursus suos deferunt sicut Romanorum Clementem Episcopum à Petro ordinatum id proinde vtique coeteri exhibeant quos ab Apostolis in Episcopalibus constitutos Apostolico semine radices habeant c Here either is ignorance or wilfull corruptiō of this authours meaning dris◠You see well by these wordes how that Tertullian doeth continue with the succession of the Pastours the which he doeth affirme to be necessarie saying that you and such as you are ought not to be receiued to the ministerie of the Church nor to teach the people contrary to the ecclesiatical order except that you shew the antiquitie of your table And it is necessary saieth he that you reckon your Pastours and Bishops by order how they haue succeeded one after another for this is the waie that the Churches doe maintaine their right The saied Tertulliā doth ground his similitude vpon the custome of the Ciuil gouernance For when that these that are Princes or Lords doe suruaie their lands the subiects are bound to shew what landes they holde of them setting it all forth by accompt shewing by what tenure they hold their copie and whether it be demean◠or free holde comming by inheritance or bought they ought likewise to name him that had it before and by their owne title to ouerthrowe all other persons that maie make claime vnto it a Not yet nor euer will you be able According to this patterne and order we haue giuen you accompt of our inheritāce although we were not bound to it setting before your eies the similitude of Salomon by whom our Sauiour Iesus Christ is represented That same Salomon doeth giue the sheepe that runnes astraie counsaile to set his Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the Shepheards to follow their flocke vntill he come to the place where Christ was nailed on the Crosse at noon daies The which counsell as the most certaine according to Tertullian his opinion we doe follow thinking it sufficient to keepe vs firmely in the right and ancient Catholicke faith For we that are the sheep of Christ doe follow as touching our religion the steppes that our fathers led before vs and as it were going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob Gen. 28. b Whatsoeuer you meane you can neuer deduce your religion so high for it hath beene a patching together long euen till of very late daies we mount by degree and degree I meane from yeare to yeare from age to age vntill that we come to S. Saturim S. Denice S. Marcial S Gratian which were those that did first teach the Catholicke faith in Tholose in Paris and to those of Guyenna and Lorayne and so consequently to all the rest of the Saintes that first did teach the Catholicke faith through all Christendome whom wee doe call in iudgement before God to defende that faith which they haue giuen vs from hand to hand they maie cal vpon the Apostles which sent them the Apostles maie direct themselues to Christ who by the mouth of his most louing Apostle doeth command vs to continue in that that was taught vs at the beginning 1. Iohn 2. And so wee shall continue and rest with the Father the Sonne and the holie Ghost And if any bodie doeth come to teach vs anie other doctrine then that which hath bene taught vs at the beginning I doe not saie c No take heede of that for the booke of the Scriptures is your bane writen in booke but
of those words Except yee eat the flesh of the son of mā c. killeth therefore he teacheth vs there spiritually to vnderstand them Who vpon these wordes of Christ gathereth that no wicked man can eate the flesh of christ vpon Mat. c. 15. as for the other part he granteth the wicked may eat that when it hath beene eatē in the end it is auoided into the place of easement Hom 15. vpon Mat. Athanasius noteth the christ made mention of his ascension Iohn 6. to wtdraw thē from corporall fleshly vnderstāding of his words vpon these words whosoeuer speaketh a word against the son c. But Chrys goeth plainly to work saith in his 11. Hom vpon Mat. that the very body of christ himselfe is not in the holy vessels but the mistery sacrament thereof is therin conteined And therefore in his 46. Hom. vpon Iohn sheweth vs the christ saying the flesh profiteth nothing Iohn 6. therby warned vs to take heede of carnall and fleshly vnderstanding of his words which is to vnderstand them saieth he simply and in his 4. Homil vpon the 4. to the Corinth he telleth vs that the body of Christ is the carion where the Eagles will bee he nameth eagles saieth he to shew that who so will approch to his body must mount aloft haue no dealing with the earth nor be drawē downward but must euermore fly vp c. For this is a table of Eagles saieth he that fly on high not of Iaies that creepe beneath Christ tooke bread which cōforteth mās hart that he might represēt therby his body bloud saith Hier. vpō the 26. of Mat. As thou hast in baptism receued the similitude of death so likewise dost thou in this sacramēt drīk the similitude of christs bloud saieth Ambrose in his 4 booke 4 c. of the sacraments Ciprian de vnctione chrismatis writeth thus Christ in his last supper gaue vnto his Apostles bread wine which he called his body bloud but on the Crosse hee gaue his very body to be wounded with the hands of the souldiers that the Apostles might declare vnto the world how in what maner the bread may be the flesh bloud of Christ And the maner straight way he declareth thus that those things which do signifie those things which be signified by thē may be both called by one name Fulgētius in his booke to King Thrasimund hath these words This cup or chalice is the new Testamēt that is to say doth signifie the new Testament Theodoret in his first Dialogue most plainely writeth that Christ honoured the signes and representatiōs which are seene with the name of his body and bloud not changing their natures but adding grace to nature and yet more plainely in the 2. Dialogue he writeth thus the mystical signes after sanctification go not from their nature for they tary in their former substance figure and forme Yea euen Gelasius a Pope about the yeare 500. against Eutiches is as plaine saying in the Eucharist the substāce and nature of bread and wine cease not For the image and similitude of the body and bloud is celebrated in those mysteries And Bertram in his treatise of this matter writen in the time of Carolus Caluus laboureth by many proofes testimonies to shew that bread and wine remaine still and that we are here to followe Christ in a figure and mistery And Bede vpon Luke 22. saith because bread doeth comfort mans heart and wine doeth make good bloud in his body therefore the bread is mystically compared to Christs body and the wine to Christs bloud The like saying hath Haymo in his 5. booke De sermonum proprietate Emissenus de consecrat Dist 2. cap. Quia corpus compareth the conuersion in the Sacrament to the conuersion in a man regenerated which we all know is in quality and not in substance There are two Epistles yet extant in the Saxon tongue made by one Alfricke in King Etheldreds time about the yeare of the Lord 996 being then as some write Bishop of Canterbury wherein he teacheth the bread and wine to be no otherwise the body and bloud of Christ then manna and the water of the rocke was Christ who also translated 80 sermons out of latin into the Saxon tongue whereof 24. were appointed to be read for homilies and in that which was to be read on Easter day there is much direct matter against Transubstantiation and your reall presence And since these times you know well inough wee haue had many from time to time yea mo thē you well like of that haue beene as flat and direct against your kinde of reall presence as we are now This Master Foxes booke of Actes and Monuments hath made euident to all the world And it is famously knowen that before your Lateran Councel vnder Innocent the 3. in the yeare 1215. it was not decreed to bee as you now hold It appeareth also by the last session of the councell of Florence which is not much aboue 140. yeares ago that the Greeke Church vntill then stoode against your doctrine of transubstantiation which is the ground of your reall presence And Tonstall though otherwise a great man on your side yet in his booke of this sacrament saieth perhaps it had beene better to leaue euery man that would be curious concerning this matter of the maner how Christ is present to his owne coniecture as by his confession before the councel of Lateran it was left at libertie And Iohn Duns a frend of yours vpon the 4. booke of the sentences saieth that the wordes might haue beene expounded more plainely then by Transubstantiation if it had pleased the Church Gabriel Biell another great doctour vpon the canon of the masse in his 40. reading plainely confesseth that it is not expressed in the canon of the Bible how the body of Christ is there whither by Trāsubstantiatiō or Consubstantiation Euen so your great Bishop Iohn Fisher writing against Luthers booke of the captiuity of Babylō is enforced to confesse that he findeth not in Mathew nor any where els in the scripture any thing to proue that there is thereby the reall presence of Christ in your masse nor that whensoeuer a Priest shall go about that matter hee maketh the bread wine the body and bloud of Christ and so concludeth that he thinketh that euery man vnderstandeth that the certaintie of that matter dependeth not so much of the Gospell as it doeth vpon the vse tradition and custome of the Church These testimonies forasmuch as directly they are against your literall exposition of Christs words your new deuise of transubstantiation the onely piller and buttresse of your real presence and against your grosse and carnal eating of him with the bodily mouthes of all receiuers good and bad they may not bee denied to bee forcible against your reall presence For the cause thereof denied and taken away the effect must cease and if the
the vaine successioÌ„ of persons wherw t you decked yourselues they haue added the successioÌ„ of true doctrine with you had corrupted So that what good soeuer was in your vocatioÌ„ ours had it also besides since they haue had confirmatioÌ„ of their ministry amongst theÌ„selues and by the consent approbation of the people amongst whoÌ„ they haue ministred The XIII Chapter IF that the good doctor * Cip. 1. epist c. 6. S. Cyprian had beene in these our daies might he not well haue saied against your schollers that which he did write against a CipriaÌ„ cals him that he speakes against Nouatianus who was a Roman and the disciple of Nouatus of Africke That Nouatus Nouatianus were two seuerall persons it appeares in Ciprian lib. 2. ep st 8. 9. Nouatus there needed no other but insteede of Nouatus to put in Caluinus or Zuinglius nomine mutato de vobis fabula narrabitur Seeing that the saied S. Ciprian doeth hold affirme that Nouatus ought to be accounted as no Bishop because he succeeded no body but rather that he did make himselfe a Bishop b These words you adde for they are not in Ciprian without any imposition of haÌ„ds Then to what purpose I praie you are ye of the opinion that c This is but your slader saying for both these were and so are wee able to proue that they had sufficient warrant for their calling Caluin Zuinglius are such faithfull ministers considering that they are as farre from prouing the confirmation of their ministrie as euer was Nouatus You will answere mee that you haue no neede of the imposition of hands of the Papists superstitious Idolaters infidels But this maketh your cause neuer the better for if you are so scrupulous by nature that it goeth against your consciences to come to kneele to our Bishops you should I say in tunes past haue required your ancient ministers to haue giuen you a warrant for the confirmation of your estate when one doeth demande of you since when your Religion began you are not content to claime the beginning froÌ„ the Apostles but rather stepping hardlie forwarde ye are not content to staie at Dauid or Abraham but you must needes fetch it from Abel d Yea euen from that doctrine that God taught Adam and Eue in Paradise though it grieue you yea from Adam And if one should spurre you forward you would go I knowe not whether Then seeing that your church is so ancient and that it hath indured till our daies if we will beleeue you it is not like to be true that it hath beene destitute altogether of ministers for although it be so that God did greatlie afflict the Israelites with the captiuitie of Babylon yet did he neuer leaue them without comfort of good doctours such as Daniel Ezechias e Whence proue you that they had there a proâ—â—er then named Abdias Or that there was then any Prop â—â—named Ezâ—chias but it may be you would haue saied Ezechiel Abdias and manie others Euen so you that thinke in your owne heades to bee the people of God I cannot thinke if it bee so hee would so haue giuen you ouer as to want ministers to comfort you in your afflictions and to ordeine your ministerie by the in position of handes f These 2. whiles they were yours and so others as Luther Lucer Capito Carolstadius OecolaÌ„padius and the rest had calling either to be priests or to be ordred by your owne Bishops or at least to be doctors of Diuinity by the vniuersitie wherein they were brought vp And after these two were ours the one had an ordinary calling by the presbytery magistrate and people of Geneuae the other of Zurich and so had the rest in the places where they taught What staies you that you doe not go to them seing that you haue nothing to doe with ours And if you say that you haue done so doe vs so much pleasure as to let vs heare their naÌ„es in what time they did florish or otherwise you maie pardon vs if wee giue no credit to your fained imaginations The XIII Chapter YOU boldly adde vnto Cyprians wordes these words without any impositioÌ„ of haÌ„ds for neither where the other words of his with you recite are nor yet any where in that epistle doeth he once mention the ceremony of imposition of haÌ„ds Neither can Cyprians saying against Nouatianus whom you cal wrongfully and ignorantly Nouatus truly be applied either to Caluin or Zuinglius seing they had as I haue read the ordinary calling vocation of the times wherin they liued euen from your selues For as for Caluin his father got him a prebend or benefice in a Cathedrall church and a curateship in a towne hard by of a Bishop of yours where he was borne which would not haue beene giuen him vnles he had beene within orders I think And Zwinglius it is wel knoweÌ„ was a CanoÌ„ in the cathedral church of Zurich 2. or 3. years there liuing preaching before he was ours And so I read the other preached also in his cure before he was ours whereby it should seeme that the one had imposition of hands to holy orders as you terme them of some Bishop of France and the other of some Bishop likewise of Germany Now after when as by force of the trueth they grew to be of our Religion so came out of Babylon to vs they both were according to the order of those churches where they serued called orderly to the ministry of the Gospell where also they both succeeded others that went before them Neither of which could Nouatianus truely alleadge for himselfe and therefore Ciprian saith that he was neither in the church nor Bishop But seeing we account our church so ancient as that when we are asked when our Religion began we will say it hath beene euen from AdaÌ„ also that euer since it hath endured and continued you say it is not likely that it hath at any time beene altogether destitute of ministers For though God did afflict the Israelites for their sinnes with the captiuity of Babylon yet he did neuer leaue them without coÌ„fort of good doctours as Daniel Ezechiel Abdias and others therefore seing we haue nothing to do with yours we either haue or should haue sought them out haue taken imposition of hands of them which if we haue done you wish vs to tell you their names when and where they florished To answer you indeede for the substance of our Religion we say it is the same with God himselfe first taught AdaÌ„ in paradise For first he was taught to serue God not according to his owne will but according to the law that God gaue him Secondly he being found a traÌ„sgressour of that holy will of God after he was brought to see his sin the danger thereof he is sent for recouery by Gods promise only to the promised
seede and then is he taught how to liue in his vocation wherein lieth the sum of that Religion which wee now teach and preach For first we teach men how to serue God according to his owne reuealed wil not according to their owne fansie as you doe Secondly finding men many waies to decline from this rule wee labour to make them see their sins and the danger thereof which wheÌ„ we haue done we send theÌ„ only to Iesus Christ for help and comfort In both with you also offend first whiles you keepe men froÌ„ seeing the multitude and grieuousnes of their sinnes by extenuating the power of original sin by making maÌ„ beleeue that the fulfilling of the law is now possible vnto him that many sins of their owne nature for their littlenes are veniall and that the first motions of sinne arising from the corruption of our owne hearts not consented vnto are no sin and then you go from this most ancient order of God in that you send men for their recouerie not only to Iesus Christ but to their owne freewill merits and satisfaction to a nuÌ„ber of thinges very trifling and ridiculous by vse and doing whereof you would perswade them they shall purchase to themselues remission of their sinnes In the 3. point also we follow the patterne of our heauenly father calling vpon euery man according to his calling to get his liuing in an honest vocation with the sweate of his browes and shewing woman that in lawfull wedlocke if by nature or otherwise she haue not the gift of continencie though to her paine sorrow she is for the encreasing of Gods kingdome and the common weale wherein shee liueth to conceaue and beare children whereas you drawe both the one and the other herefrom into Hermitages Cloisters and Nunries there to liue an idle life out of all vocation profitable to the Church or common weale And we are perswaded that this Religion and consequently a Church to holde and embrace it hath euer since vnto these daies continued And we graunt you also that though God for the sinnes of his people doe afflict his Church diuers times and that grieuously as he did the Isralites with the 70. yeares captiuity yet then he doeth not leaue them without teachers to comfort them and therefore in all ages and times doe constantly beleeue in one place or other that this our ReligioÌ„ and Church hath had some such Yet you must take this with you that in such times of the afflictioÌ„ of the Church the ordinary state of the ministrie thereof hath often failed For you haue heard Azariah the prophet tel king Asa in respect of such times as were before his time that Israell a long season had beene without the true God without prophet to teach and without lawe 2. Chron. 15. And in the 3 of Hosea you may reade prophecied that the children of Israell shall remaine many daies without a King without a Prince without an offring without an image without an Ephod and without Teraphim by which wordes the Prophet plainely foresheweth an interruption should be of their outward ordinary visible ministry And euen in respect of the time that you meÌ„tion it appeareth in the 2. of the Imâ—â—â—ntat that the like was fulfilled in the Church in respect of that time of their captiuity in Babylon For there Ieremie lamenting the state of the Church then saieth The Lord hath caused the feastes and Sabbothes to be forgotten in Sion and hath despised in the indignation of his wrath the King and the Priests the Lord hath forsaken his altar hath abhorred his sanctuary And when those prophecies of the florishing of Antichrist 2. Thes 2. and Reuel 17. and that of the Churches being driued into the wildernes and there remaining for a time Reuel 12. should be fulfilled who seeth not that it is no strange thing but a thing plainly foreshewed should be that neither the church herselfe nor her teachers should be very visible and apparent And therefore speaking of those times when indeede those prophesies were verified as you doe you doe our church and her ministers great double wrong first in thus chasing theÌ„ into the wildernes there to saue themselues from your fury and then yet in exacting at our handes the names of them whom God by thus hiding of them preserued to continue his church And yet as I haue shewed you before cap. 4. in the mercie of God wheÌ„ your AntichristiaÌ„ Synagogue florished most in Bohemia other places the Christians called WaldeÌ„ses were many and has diuers assemblies schools churches and ministers Why theÌ„ say you haue you not or do you not run to theÌ„ that by theÌ„ you may haue your ministers ordeined or confirmed if you haue tell vs their names that did it I answere you we haue thought it needles seeing as I haue shewed otherwise both our former later ministers nearer home had both ordinatioÌ„ confirmation that well enough serued their turnes Besides I am sure you caÌ„not be ignoraÌ„t but it hath ben an ordinary thing with God wheÌ„ the ordinary ministers of the church consequently the outward face couÌ„tenance thereof hath bene corrupted gon froÌ„ y truth waies of the lord to raise extraordinarily prophets and others to seeke procure the reformatioÌ„ thereof as it appeareth by raising vp from time to time Prophets amongst the Israelites in the ruins and corruptions of his church who should haue had wrong offred if they should not haue bene receiued as the Lords ministers vntill either they could get ordinary admission of the Prelates then to reform whose corruptions they were seÌ„t or vntil they could shew the names of some other prophets that had ordinarily succeeded others also ordeined them Which is the very case of the Lords faithful ministers whom he hath vsed first in any nation without the ordinary calling of the daies immediatly going before to detect lay opeÌ„ the horrible corruptioÌ„s thrust vpon the Church by the papacy For they fouÌ„d that the word of God was concealed hid froÌ„ the people that insteede thereof they were fed with the inuentions and traditions of men y the honour that was due to God alone was turned vnto meÌ„ vnto images that the bloud of Christ was ineffect trodeÌ„ vnderfoot in that so many by waies were sought to atteine to heaueÌ„ by besides Christ that the sacrament of his body bloud was turned into grosse Idolatry the vse quite peruerted To be short they found al the holy scripture prophaned poisoned which the Popes glosses false interpretatioÌ„s These things therfore being thus the lord reueling vnto theÌ„ his truth because the time was come that Antichrist must be detected the lord gaue vnto theÌ„ the spirit of courage and boldnes first to notifie these corruptions to the Prelates of your church and to craue at their haÌ„ds the reformation thereof but finding that that would not be because sathaÌ„ will
proue by a law of Theodosius and Arcades Emperours of Rome made to forbid men vnder paine of leesing their right not to seeke to recouer possession of their own by violence force Wherunto I answere you that graunt vs so much which of right you must and for all your tale and penall Statute of Theodosius and Arcades we shall be to good for you For first what other Iudges sentence were wee to expect but theirs that we had on our side alreadie Secondly there hath beene no such tumultuous or disorderly violence vsed by vs as I haue shewed before as their lawe forbiddeth to recouer our owne from you and then you must vnderstand that these Emperours prescribe their lawe to bridle men and not to binde God from recouering his inheritance to the vse of his seruants from the hands of Antichristian vsurpers euen by force and violence if otherwise they will not yeeld To proue therefore that God would haue called in our commission though he had graunted it rather then hee would haue suffred vs to execute it in violent driuing you out of possession to recouer our owne right you had neede to haue vsed a stronger reason then taken from the edict of Emperours If these thinges had beene well coÌ„sidered before of you you might haue spared your iest wherewith you conclude this Chapter well enough and so rather haue staied your pipes your selfe then in such sorte as you haue blowen so ioyfully in token of triumph before any likelihoode of victory The vanity and falshoode of your bragge for the continuance of your religion aboue one thousand yeares before we were borne not onely throughout France but also throughout all Christendome I haue fully and at large discouered in the later ende of the preface in my answer to your 4.16 39. ca. therfore in this place I haue saied no more then I haue referring the reader for a full answere thereuÌ„to both here and wheresoeuer else it is repeated by you vnto these places And though S. Augustine say as you write that liberty and licence of conscience to doe euil is the death of the soule yet that toucheth vs nothing at al for doing what we may by lawfull ordinary means to dispossesse your AntichristiaÌ„ prelats of the places of gouernment ouer Christs Church and of the maintenance due to his true faithful pastors For so to deale is but orderly to recouer Gods inheritance out of the hands of his enemies to possesse them thereof to whom it is due and therefore in so doing there is neither liberty nor licence to doe euil practised But rather you in crauing the restoring of you thereunto and quiet continuance therein still craue both liberty licence without controlement to go on in sacrilegious enioying that which at no hand appertaines to such as you be The XVI Chapter FOR a This is vntrue for wee alleage both our lawful calling shew the right that we not you haue to those places and maintenaÌ„ce for they were appointed for true Pastours and not for wolues foxes as your Prelates haue beene a great while your defence you alleage no other reason but your good zeale and your ardent Apostolicall affection the which hath mooued you to sowe this seede of sedition You saie that the fielde is great and there are few good reapers but if you marke that that doeth followe afterward and to take the counsaile of the wise Christ doeth not commaunde therefore that euerie one should take his sickle and go and cut downe other mens corne But he saieth * b Mat. 15. b Mat. 9. It is but your ill luck scarce to quote one of ten rightly Pray the master of the worke to the end that he sende more workemen to his vine He doeth teach vs that if we see anie estate out of order we should praie to God to redresse it And in the meane time we ought to correct and amend our owne liues for if euerie man were for himselfe God would bee for vs all c That is a good means but doth it thereupoÌ„ follow that no other meanes is good and lawfull to that ende and in that case Yet notwithstanding this it is not reasonable that vnder the colour of a good zeale a seruant shoulde take in hand an act of so great importaunce without expresse commandement of his master as it is saied But now that wee are come to talke of your good zeale if it please you let vs knovv d Neither haue we if those ardent flames of charitie haue so inflamed you that you haue ouerthrowen the chaires of the negligent Pastours and Bishops and in their roomes ye haue collocated your ministers in euerie place where yee could beare anie swaie as it doeth appeare in manie townes and Cities in this Realme I doe not doubt but that you vvill doe the best that yee can to doe the like with the rest e This is but a malitious surmise enforced to make vs odious contrary both to your coÌ„science and experience but indeede it is plaine by proofe that thus you deaâ—e with Kings and Queenes if they be â—oâ— of your sect and humor I meane as vvell temporall as spirituall For euen as God of whom yee speake so often doeth make no exception of persons euen so you that call your selues his Lieutenants will make no difference betweene the euill estates the good Euerie one doeth know that the administration of iustice is verie honourable before God and that there be manie in this vocation that would not for anie thing doe anie wrong vnto the widow and fatherlesse childe yet we see and know by experience that there are manie others that without anie conscience doe take bribes and offer wrong both to the fatherlesse to the widow the which crimes are no lesse in that estate then the carelesse liuing of the Bishops and Pastors So that I thinke by this that he that hath giueÌ„ you charge power to turne the Bishops out of their seats the Curats out of their benefices and the Monkes and Abbots out of their Abbeys because of their euill liuings would likewise extende your commission to put downe Lordes Knightes Iudges and Gentlemen because of the corrupt liues of manie of them And to make an ende of the reformation your holie Ghost and those zealous flames of the spirit woulde mooue you to go a little higher for there is nothing done but the spirit may amend it Against the great trees striue the great windes and against great dignities great abuses It is not vnknown to al meÌ„ that ther are good and godly Catholicke Princes and Kings which are surelie to the people the great giftes of God but likewise one cannot denie but that there hath beene and are diuers ill Princes that doe gouerne their people careleslie without iustice And if by chance your Gospell should fall into some kingdom where the Prince were not so sage nor so
the like vnto the aboue named heretickes which haue fortified their caÌ„pe with as manie places more then you doe alleage Now if that notwithstaÌ„ding the scriptures by theÌ„ alleaged you doe condemne theÌ„ as hereticks because that they did interpret theÌ„ coÌ„trary to that that the l Vnderstanding by the Church the true Church that is one of our reasons but that is not al why we reiect them and their maner of alleaging them principally we reiect them because by the plaine euidence of the scriptures we can confute â—hem And to despise the iudgement of the popish Church is not to despise the iudgement of the true Church of Christ church doeth teach to saie trueth you can imagin no other excuse to what purpose doe you take vpon you the names of Catholickes seeing that you commit the like offence The diuersities of those olde heresies grounded vpon the Scriptures ill interpreted doe teach vs that vvee shoulde not permit the noise of your reformed Gospell that soundeth so shrill to make vs reele froÌ„ a Yours is but ancient as Ieroboams religion was when the 10 tribes were brought into captiuity our ancient faith without going so farre to seeke that that we haue so neere at haÌ„d Let vs talke of the present time how manie coÌ„trarie sects doth there raigne How manie heads of heresies b With variety of names you need lesly increase the number as your forfathers were woont to doe with those whoÌ„ they first called Waldenses Some are Lutherans some Anabaptists some PuritaÌ„s some ProtestaÌ„ts some PrecisiaÌ„s all these doe fortifie their caÌ„pes with Scriptures to fight one against another The ZuingliaÌ„s the Caluinists on the other side doe write that al these doe erre and they proue it by Scripture The Anabaptists laugh at al the rest The Prophets Celestes which is another sect doe no lesse grounding themselues vpon their reuelations because that Dauid saieth * Psalm 84. Heare what the Lorde doeth speake in me The Deists or Trinitaries which are come last of al crie out and saie that all they are heretickes and they proue it by the olde and new Testament I praie now tell me which of al these shall I receiue seeing that they doe all alleage the holie Scriptures If we receiue some and not all those that are refused will saie that wee offer them wrong for they haue c This is but your saying still for you shall neuer be able to proue this their shoppes stored with as good stuffe of the scriptures and aswell alleadged as all the rest If we receiue them all it will be a renewing of the olde confusion of Babylon through the neglecting of so manie Gospels If you saie that we ought to follow those that conforme themselues most vnto the pure vvord of God that will come to one ende for if I doe demaunde of you how we shall know which doe conforme themselues most vnto the trueth d Indeade we say and we are not ashamed of it that onely by the assistance direction of the holy Ghost in trying their interpretations by the scriptures it must be discerned who alleâ—geth them best you answere me that it must be done by the grace of the holie Ghost sent by the Lord if with a true heart he is inuocated of the faithful Seeing you know so wel the way how to agree togither how coÌ„meth it to passe that you haue not vsed it this fortie or fiftie yeares which are the precincts of the time since your ancient Church began seeing that you haue assembled so manie times togither e We haue done so and Gods name be praised for it so far we haue obtained our praier that we are able by the light of Gods spirit to discerne who amongst all these and all others amongst whom you papistes are the principall alleages them best with those we holde peace for the rest we morne yet comforting of our selues with this that necessary it is for the trial of the Lords that there be such sects why haue yee not praied vnto the Lorde to sende the spirit of trueth to make peace amongst his Apostles I thinke that you are not so vnshamefast that you will denie the quarels and debates that haue risen among you f The stirre betwixt these two though it hath bene more then should bee yet neither so much hath it bene at least for the followers of Caluin as you woulde seeme nor nothing comparable to the brawlings and furious contentions amongst your selues often I doe not say in light words but in great battailes in railing processes in horrible excoÌ„munications sent from the Churches of the Lutherans vnto the Caluinists froÌ„ the Caluinists vnto the Lutherans as I haue set forth at large in the booke that I made of the Sacrament therefore yee are greatly ouerseene that ye haue not inuocated the spirit of the Lorde as Caluin hath taught you in his Catechisme to the end that you may come to some accorde The XXVII Chapter FIrst here you aske vs whither it be good to beleeue al maner of people that alleage scripture We answere you no but with S. Ioh. 1. Epist 4. We wish all men to trie the spirits whither they be of God or no before they beleeue theÌ„ And we adde further with Iohn in the same place Hereby shall yee knowe the spirit of God Euery spirit that confesseth that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God and that spirit which confesseth not that is not of God but is the spirit of Antichrist By which wordes wee answere fullie your second demaunde also and giue you a proofe that our spirit is of God and yet neither these heretiques which you name nor yours any better then that spirit of Antichrist which Iohn speaketh of For I am sure you must needs graunt mee if you consider these wordes of Saint Iohn well that hee speaketh here onelie of confessing soundlie and rightly that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh which wee doe as wee are able to proue by the Scriptures truelie alleadged and neither they nor you are able to proue that and therefore this is a plaine proofe that ours is of God and neither yours nor theirs can be They confesse him not aright to be come in the flesh in that one way or other they erred not onelie in the doctrine of his office but also held some heresie or other against the trueth of his person And you confesse him not aright to be come in the flesh because not onely with some of the ancieÌ„t heretiques as namelie the Marcionites for the loue you haue to your fiction of TraÌ„substaÌ„tiation you hold him to haue such flesh as shall for your peeuish pleasures be without all the naturall properties of humane flesh and so a very phantasme and not flesh indeed but also most craftily you take from him that glorious office that the Scripture giueth him and translate it to what you list
Donatists in murdering those that we found in your Temples A poore simple man perhaps that reades these things in your booke will thereupon gather that you of your side are men that can neuer bee charged with any disorderly insurrections and rebellions and that your side altogither abhorreth cruelty and neuer practised any For who would thinke that of all other you would bee so ready so especially and vehemently to charge vs with these things vnlesse you were the clearest men in the world in them But vnderstand Christian reader that this is but their policy to deceiue thee for there were neuer men more iustlie and deepely to bee charged with these thinges then these men are For if wee looke but into the stories of our owne countrey wee shall finde that scarce one king hath passed his raigne without rebellion for a long time togither and that chiefely by meanes of the Popes cursing and banning them for money matters This the stories of Henrie the second king Iohn Henrie the third Edwarde the second Richard the second Henrie the fourth sixt seuenth and eight and of late time the stories of Edwarde the sixt and of her Maiestie that now is Queene Elizabeth doe make most cleare For in all those Princes tymes wee reade of great troubles and ciuill warres in this land and that alwaies especiallie stirred vp by the Popes and their fauourers if they had not what they would Sure I am they will not nor can saie that they that were the authours and doers herein were of our Religion but of theirs The like may bee saied of other kingdomes since the time that their Religion hath florished most And certaine it is that none were euer in these parts of the world since they came to their height greater troublers of Christendome then their Popes themselues For in Italie vnder the names of Guelphes and Gibelines in Cicilie Naples and Arragon for titles of those kingdomes and in Germanie and France for the translating this way and that way the Empire they haue beene the cause of most long and bloudy warres And to passe ouer all the most sauage partes played by these men that would seeme to haue their hands so free from bloudshed especiallie in Churches of late yeares in France in killing and murdering of Protestantes as couragiouslie in Churches as in any other places where either by force or subtlety they could surprise them let them call to their remembrance what was done by a famous Captaine of theirs Minerius of late vnder pretence of a commission from Frauncis the king of France to the poore Christians of Merindoll and Cabriers and the townes thereabout and I thinke they shall bee inforced to confesse that they are not the men they would seeme to bee For in that story it appeareth that after they had by a decree in the high court of Prouince for the not appearance of ten men of Merindoll adiudged that towne houses and trees to be made euen with the ground and all the inhabitants thereof men women and children to bee consumed with the fire and that after their prelates and great men had long laboured in vaine to put this decree in execution that in the ende this Minerius being president in Prouince handled the matter so by false informing of the king that he obtained a most bloudy commission from Frauncis then king of France through the helpe of the Cardinal of Turnon to execute that arrest Wherein though his commission stretched onely to Merindoll hee behaued himselfe so with the assistance that quicklie he got that in short space he vtterly destroied Merindol Cabriers and other townes and villages thereabouts to the number of 22 giuing commission to his souldiers to spoyle ransacke burne and to destroy altogither and to kill mā woman and childe without al mercy sparing none which commission they executed in the cruellest maner that their filthy and bloudy hearts could deuise rauishing both women and maidens and putting them to all the torments they could imagine cutting of the paps of some ripping open the bellies of other some and so most tirannously murdering al they could get At Cabriers thirty men he caused to bee hewen in pieces in a medow neare the towne and there he tooke .40 women and caused them to be put into a barne ful of hey and straw and so there to be kept in with pikes whiles they the barne and all were burned and there also he sent a Captaine of his Iohn de Gay to go with a company of ruffians to the Church where were a great number of women young children to murder them all which he did sparing neither young nor olde and so one way and other eight thousand were slaine in that towne And but for to much troubling of the reader a number as tragicall stories as this might bee set downe of their dealings against the poore seruants of God in diuers and sundry other places and namelie also not long after these thinges were done in the countrey of Piedmont and thereabout but euen this is sufficient to make any man see especiallie this storie beeing so famous and done of so late yeares that your forehead must needs be growen very hard yet to obiect such things to vs whereof you your selues haue beene most notoriouslie guiltie You haue tolde vs before that wee must not seeke to blemish your Religion with the bad fruites wee finde vpon you for your Religion condemneth them which might iustlie haue stayed you from going about to staine our Religion with these things especially For sure I am that our Religion condemneth seditiō rebelliō forbiddeth subiects to impeach their Princes safety dignity either by word or deede detesteth al kinde of such barborous cruelty and tiranny Wheras it may bee iustly doubted that howsoeuer your Religion condemne some other grosse faults that be common in men of your side yet it liketh well of these and such like kinde of dealings because it is a common thing for your great Prelates to be the chiefe furtherers thereof and to haue such things attempted vnder commission from your catholicke kings your Popes of Rome And therefore though that your rule weakē yea fully answere this obiection of yours against vs though it were grāted that these things which you obiect were true yet it doeth not take away ours in this respect made against you The XXXVI Chapter YOu a The answere is to your shame make vs but a very slender answere saying that we were the first that you doe no other but that that we haue taught you b That may be but sure I am if you should deny it I know stories to your shāe report that you should say vntruely If we should saie the contrary I know who should say the trueth but to auoide all quarels the best is following the councel of our Sauiour to giue you more then you demand Let vs put the case that we should cōfesse to be
againe I require the voice of the sheepheard read me this matter out of the Prophets read it out of the Psalms read it out of the law read it out of the Gospel read it out of the Apostles writings in his book de pastoribus c. 14. and so likewise conclude with him I owe my consent without gainsaying onely vnto the canonicall scriptures .. cap. 61. de naturâ gratiâ and according to these bookes of the scriptures we haue learned of him to iudge freely of all other writings lib. 2 cap. 29. contra Cresconium The fathers are full of such places whereby any man may see that by their very good leaue we are not to be pressed to beleeue or receaue any thing not taught in the scriptures vpon their bare authority and therefore these and such like places in them considered if you would haue had their names the places you cite in them to haue in sadnes bred any sound credit to any of these foure points you alleadge them for either should you haue warraÌ„ted them by good proofe out of the scriptures your selfe or haue shewed vs how they proued them consonant at the least to the same Howbeit because you shall not abuse the Reader to make him thinke that the fathers you name for these matters are further of your opinion then they be indeede as I haue not refused to examine your opinion and the places you send vs vnto for your ceremonies so will I for the Christian readers sake take the paines to deale with you for in al your other 3 opinions of confession praier to Saints for the dead with it your seueral quotations set down for the proofe of the same To go on therefore according to my course begun for confession before the receiuing of the sacrameÌ„t you saie first our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the ecclesiasticall ministers haue authority to binde and to forgiue sins and for proofe hereof you set in your margent Iohn 20. Mat. 16. I am sure here by confession that you speake of you meane your auricular confession wherof your Tridentine councel taketh such care that that in the 6 7 and 8 Canon thereof touching this matter it solemnely anathematizeth al those that hold auricular confession not to be necessary to saluation by the law of God saying that it is but the deuise of man Which they there haue defined to be a secret reckoning vp vnto the priest of al mortal sins at the least with al their circumstances whereof by due premeditation the party can haue any remembrance whereunto they bind all persons aboue certaine yeares of both sexes at least once in the yeare and that namely in lent before their receiuing at Easter Now this confession your schoolmen and doctours do teach must be made so fullie and exactly that no sin nor circumstance thereof must be coÌ„cealed for then therby al the labour is lost and the absolutioÌ„ frustrated from al the rest Which doctrine cannot chuse but a number of waies proue a needles and a desperate tormenting of coÌ„scieÌ„ces For first it laieth vpoÌ„ them an ineuitable necessity not onelie to doe that which God neuer required at their hands but also that which either is simply impossible vnto theÌ„ to doe for the multitude of their sins and circumstances thereof or else impossible for them to doe in such maner as that they can satisfie themselues that they haue omitted no piece of due premeditation to call all their sins the circuÌ„stances thereof that they should coÌ„fesse to their remeÌ„braÌ„ce which a nuÌ„ber of your owne side most deuoutly giueÌ„ to doe this in the best maner haue bene enforced to confesse Yet this confession before the sacrament though indeed it bee a thing that hath no ground or warrant at all in the Scriptures but was as both Iohannes Scotus libro 4. sententiarum Distict 17. art 3. and Anton part 3. histatit 19 doe confesse first imposed as necessary by the Lateran councel in InnoceÌ„t the thirds time about the year of the Lord one thousand 2 hundred and fifteene you here would seeme to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce by two places of scripture co begin withal But your betters haue thought otherwise of this your kinde of confession For your glosse de paenitentiâ Distinct 5. Cap. in principio confesses plainely that it came in rather by some tradition then either by authority of the olde testament or new which tradition he saieth yet ought to binde the West Church to vse it though not the Greekes East Church which haue it not And Beatus Rhenanus in his notes vpon Tertullians booke of repentance forasmuch as hee findeth not therein anie mention hereof not onely gathered that it was not in vse then but also hee sheweth that he thought it came in after grew of the mislike of the inconueniences of the continuance of publicke confessions made in the publicke assembly in the hearing of al the congregation vsed seuerally in the former times And Soto coÌ„tra BreÌ„tiuÌ„ reckoneth vp both your other two points following of praying to Saints and for the dead this also amongst the things grouÌ„ded but vpon the vnwriten word or tradition You had therefore delt both more wisely and more simply honestly if of these and such other great Rabbins of your side you had learned to fetch the ground of this your confession from any where els rather then from the scriptures But seeing you will seeme to haue found that ground for it there which they could not let vs a little consider how fâ—ly now the places you quote serue your turne You meane I am sure both by your words and quotations that Christs doing and saying to his Apostles set downe by Matthew John in the places you quote in these words to thee speaking namely in the first place to Peter I wil giue the keies of the kingdoÌ„e of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou shalt binde in earth shal be bound in heauen whatsoeuer thou loosest in earth shal be loosed in heaueÌ„ And in the other he breathed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ and saied receiue yee the holy Ghost whose sins yee remit they are remitted whose sins yee retaine they are retained Wherby indeed it is euident that our Sauiour first promised to Peter in the name of al the rest after gaue to al his faithful Apostles first the gift of the holy Ghost and then power and authority to vse the â—eies of the kingdome of heauen to binde and loose and to remit retaine sinnes which power and authority they most faithfully and effectually vsed whiles faithfully they preached saluation to the peniteÌ„t beleeuer and denouÌ„ced damnation to the impenitent vnbeleeuers with all duety as they saw cause vsing the censures of the Church of admonition rebuking suspending and excommunicating though they were neuer acquainted with your auricular confession And likewise the same power is exercised by the Lords faithfull ministers in his church still not by the helpe of your