Selected quad for the lemma: ground_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
ground_n	faith_n	scripture_n	word_n	6,782	5	5.1236	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00791	An answer to a pamphlet, intituled: The Fisher catched in his owne net In vvhich, by the vvay, is shevved, that the Protestant Church was not so visible, in al ages, as the true Church ought to be: and consequently, is not the true Church. Of which, men may learne infallible faith, necessarie to saluation. By A.C.	A. C.; Champney, Anthony, 1569?-1643?, attributed name.; Sweet, John, 1570-1632, attributed name.; Floyd, John, 1572-1649, attributed name.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641, attributed name.	1623 (1623)	STC 10910.4; ESTC S107710	44,806	106

giuen speciall commendations of them far preferred them before his owne Church-men And as the methode which M. Fisher prescribed before the meeting is already shewed to be the fittest that could be for giuing good satisfaction to the old Gentleman and all others so in my opinion both he and M. Sweet did very well to stand as they did constantly to it prudently forseeing when the Aduersary would haue diuerted them from it and warily so answering his his arguments as that for all he could say they would not suffer themselues to be transported from the proposed Question and the prescribed Methode but stil kept the Aduersary to the point would not permit him to diuert either to dispute about Christ or his Apostles or any other point vntill names were giuen in all Ages which was the point demanded and vndertaken The which course they tooke vpon iust and good reason and not for any distrust or diffidence as some Protestants did inconsideratly imagine that they could not defend Christ and his Apostles not to haue beene Protestants or any particular point of those which D. Featly or D. VVhite vnseasonably proposed or any other held in such sense as it is held as a point of fayth by the Catholike Roman Church which they could and would haue defended proued if need had beene or if the meeting had beene intended and appointed for that purpose The reason therefore why M. Fisher might well refuse to enter into such particuler disputes before full Induction of Names were ended was for that this had beene to follow two Hares at once and so to catch neither and to leaue that which was most pertinent to the present Question and which most imported to be decided in the first place as being the ōly thing in which the old Gentleman and many other of the Audience did particulerly expect and desire to be satisfyed and being a most easy and assured meanes to help them to be satisfyed in all other matters in Controuersy without which it is most hard or rather impossible euer to attaine certaine and infallible Resolution in all particular euen most necessary points of fayth as M. Fisher expresely shewed and proued by a sentence aboue cyted out of D. Field A second reason might be for that all disputatiō about particulers before the true Church were by her perpetuall visibility or some such euident marks found out and acknowledged as a sufficient meanes appointed by God to instruct all sorts in matters of fayth and to preserue vnity and determine Controuersyes of fayth would haue beene fruitlesse endlesse Which was the reason why M. Fisher in another former conference had with a certaine Minister would not enter into any particulers vntill he had asked these generall Questions 1. VVhat grounds the Minister would stand vpon The Minister answered Scripture which M. Fisher accepting wrote downe and then asked 2. VVhether he would belieue nothing but expresse wordes of Scripture The Minister answered Yes he would also beleeue a good Consequence out of Scripture This also M. Fisher accepted and wrote downe and further asked 3. If it should happen that the consequence which the Minister should bring should not be thoght good by him and è contra the Consequence brought by him should not be thought good by the Minister who should iudge and end that fruitlesse and otherwise endlesse contention and Controuersy The Minister sayd The Church M. Fisher very willingly accepted and wrote it down 4. asked VVhether after the Church shall haue iudged and decyded such a Controuersy it should be lawfull for any priuate man to oppose his iudgement against that which the Church had so determined As for example when Cutholikes and Arrians hauing alleadged Scriptures and pro and contra brought consequences out of thē about the Diuinity of Christ our Lord The Church in a generall Councell iudged the consequences of Arrians to be naught and those of the Catholikes good The Minister sayd No it was not lawfull for any priuate man to oppose his iudgement against such a Iudgement of the Church These Questions being asked M. Fisher ioyned issue vpon a question bidding the Minister choose what he thought most materiall against Roman Catholikes and let it be tryed whether the Church did iudge for Catholikes or Protestants The Minister did choose the Question about Merits and tooke for his tenet That there was not any Merit of man before God And when the day of tryall came the case was so cleere against the Minister in the ancient Fathers whome the Minister granted to be the Church euen by confession of the Magdeburgians that the Minister had no shift but to diuert the disputation from the substance of the proposed Question to a circumstance of Commutatiue Iustice and that equality betwixt the VVorke and the Reward which is written of by Bellarmine About which circumstance M. Fisher was content to dispute after he had plainely shewed the substance of Merit out of the ancient Fathers Comming therefore to dispute about the aforesayd circumstance of Merit M. Fisher found that there would be no end nor fruit of the argument in regard the ancient Fathers had not spoken of it in expresse tearmes as they had done of the substance of Merit no other visible Church of this present age was agreed on to whose iudgement this matter should be finally referred By which experience M. Fisher hath learned how endlesse and fruitlesse it is to waste wordes about particulers vntill both partyes be agreed which is the true Church not only in ancient tymes but also of this age So as after ech party hath sayd what he can the finall resolution of the Question may be referred to that present Church which hauing without interruption of Pastours and Doctors and without change of doctrine successiuely descended from the true visible Church of anciēt tymes is by this and other Markes proued to be the pre-present true Church whose Iudgment no priuate man must oppose This Question therefore of the continual successiue visible Church being so necessary to end al Controuersies and being now proposed to be treated of betwixt M. Fisher and D. Featly M. Fisher had great reason not to permit speach of any other particular Question vntill by his prescribed Methode he had gotten it clearly seen that the Protestant Church was not and the Catholique Roman Church was the only true Church to whome it pertayneth to giue Iudgment of and determine Controuersies and to instruct all sorts of men in the true Faith and not to permit men by their priuate interpretations of Scripture to wander in errors or wauer in in certain ties or spend their tyme in fruitles and endles disputations about controuerfies of faith It being most certaine that these can neuer be with fruite and fully ended but by the censure of the true visible not only ancient but also present Church which must when doubt is as most often is made tell vs what particuler books be

Church in al ages then M. F. or his friends wil in a like proportionable sort and sense shew proue and defend a visible Romane Church in al ages This Paper was deliuered to the old Gentleman and was confessed to haue beene receiued by the Doctors before the disputation and before the meeting The time and manner of which meeting is set downe by the Protestant Relator in manner following The 27. of Iune 1623. M. Fisher M. Sweet Iesuits and some others with them came to Sir H. Lynds house in a little dyning roome where they found the aforesaid M. Buggs his wife and children and others of Sir H. friends that had then dined with him together with some others also whose comming in as the said Sir H. did not expect so he could not with ciuilitie put them forth his house but did instantly cause his doores to bee locked vp that no more might enter notwithstanding which his command some others also came in scattering after the conference began In this parcel it is to bee considered how great care M. Fisher had to haue the meeting secret and how wel he obserued the fore-appointed conditions in which he was so punctual that after he had his number of one Assistant and foure Witnesses and a Writer he would not so much as tel a Gentleman of his acquaintance who had by other meanes vnderstood of the meeting and the place of meeting at what houre the meeting should be whereas on the contrary part so much speech was made of it by some of the Protestant side that beside the number appointed to bee Auditors many Protestant Gentlemen and Gentlewomen and some Noblemen and many Ministers did repaire to Sir Humfrey his house which M. Fisher found to be so filled as he complained to Sir Humfrey of the inequalitie of that Audience compared with the few he brought which Sir H. could not denie but excused himselfe in such manner as he could saying He could not helpe it c. CHAP. II. About that which passed in the Conference it selfe DOctor White and Doctor Featly being inuited to dinner saith the Protestant Relator by Sir Humfrey Lynd and staying a while after had notice giuen them that M. Fisher and M. Sweet Iesuits were in the next roome ready to conferre with them touching a Question set downe by M. Fisher vnder his owne hand in these words viz. Whether the Protestants Church was in al ages visible and especially in the ages going before Luther 2. And whether the names of such visible Protestants in al ages can be shewed and proued out of good Authors This Question being deliuered to the parties aboue named and it being notified vnto them that there were certaine persons who had beene sollicited and remaining doubtful in Religion desired satisfaction especially in this point they were perswaded to haue some speech with the Iesuites touching this point the rather because the Priests and Iesuites doe dayly cast out Papers and disperse them in secret in which they vaunt That no Protestant Minister dare encounter with them in this point Any man reading this parcel would be induced to thinke that D. White and D. Featly had neuer had notice before for what end they were inuited to Dinner or for what end they were to meet with the Iesuites but that they were on the suddaine summoned to this Conference without any preparation or knowledge of the Question Which not to be so is euidently conuinced partly by that which is alreadie said partly by that which I am after to say 2. This Relator would make his Reader beleeue that M. Fisher vnder his owne hand had set downe the words of the Question distinguished with the expresse figure of 2. Which is not so for M. Fisher did not write any such figure of 2. in the middle of the Question nor did not meane to make any more then one only entire Question as Sir Humfrey himselfe had desired 3. He seemeth willing to perswade that Priests and Iesuites doe dayly cast out Papers which is not true At the beginning of this meeting when the Disputants were set saith the Protestant Relator D. Featly drew out the Paper in which the Question aboue rehearsed was written with these words in the Margent viz. I wil answer that it was not and demanded of M. Fisher Whether this were his owne hand which after he had acknowledged D. Featly began as followeth D. Featly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To this vniuersal demand requiring rather an Historical large Volume then a Syllogistical briefe dispute we answer And then he read out of a Paper which this Relator would make men beleeue to haue beene said memoriter the same in effect which was written before the meeting to M. Fisher. 1. That although diuine infallible Faith is not built vpon deduction out of humane Historie but vpon diuine reuelation as is confessed by your owne Schoole-men and expressely by Cardinal Bellarmine Historiae humanae faciunt tantum fidem humanam cui subesse potest falsum Humane Stories and Records beget onely an humane Faith or rather Credulitie subiect to error not a diuine and infallible Beleefe which must be built vpon surer ground 2. Although this Question be grounded vpon vncertaine and false supposals for a Church may haue beene visible yet not the names of al visible Professors thereof now to be shewed and proued out of good Authors there might be millions of Professors yet no particular and authentical Record of them by name Records there might be many in ancient time yet not now extant at least for vs to come by Yet we wil not refuse to deale with you in your owne Question if you in like manner wil vndertake the like Taske in your owne defence and maintaine the Affirmatiue in the like Question which we now propound vnto you here in writing Whether the Romish Church that is a Church holding the particular entire doctrine of the new Romanists as it is comprised in the Councel of Trent was in al ages visible especially in the first 600. yeeres and whether the names of such visible or legible Romanists in al ages can be shewed and proued out of good Authors Here the Relator omitteth to tel how M. Fisher caused the two Papers written and giuen the old Gentleman as is aboue said to be publiquely read by the first whereof it appeared why he had propounded such a Question by the second the true sence and meaning of the Question was explicated and a conuenient Method of proceeding was prescribed with due proportion to be obserued on both sides Then D. Featly beginning to argue in this place and not in the end of the Disputation where the Protestant Relator placeth it did say M. Fisher I wish I warne I command I coniure you to answere truely and sincerely in the sight of God and as you wil answere it at the Day of Iudgement To this M. Fisher said I willingly accept your warning and I wish you to obserue the like