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ground_n church_n true_a truth_n 4,857 5 6.5820 4 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A91884 A moderate answer to Mr. Prins full reply to certaine observations on his first twelve questions: vvherein all his reasons and objections are candidly examined and refuted. A short description of the congregationall way discovered. Some arguments for indulgence to tender consciences modestly propounded. By the same author. Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?, attributed name. 1645 (1645) Wing R1676; Thomason E26_20; ESTC R13022 43,033 54

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church_n be_v a_o particular_a congregation_n of_o saint_n have_v power_n of_o censure_n within_o themselves_o and_o exercise_v all_o the_o ordinance_n of_o christ_n now_o this_o antiquity_n prove_v to_o be_v in_o the_o primitive_a time_n even_o many_o year_n after_o the_o apostle_n but_o suppose_v the_o contrary_a that_o there_o can_v not_o any_o such_o footstep_n of_o this_o way_n be_v find_v in_o antiquity_n yet_o have_v we_o no_o ground_n to_o think_v it_o be_v not_o true_a great_a be_v the_o apostasy_n of_o the_o church_n from_o the_o apostle_n doctrine_n that_o truth_n have_v be_v lose_v for_o a_o long_a time_n among_o the_o most_o it_o be_v a_o great_a mercy_n that_o since_o that_o defection_n from_o the_o pure_a way_n of_o christ_n to_o antichrist_n there_o have_v be_v any_o glimmering_n of_o light_n preserve_v any_o in_o secret_a that_o may_v worship_v he_o after_o his_o own_o mind_n that_o any_o thing_n have_v be_v refine_v and_o restore_v to_o its_o primitive_a institution_n 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then_o subject_a to_o the_o apostle_n law_n and_o edict_n etc._n etc._n therefore_o not_o independent_a what_o there_o be_v in_o this_o worthy_a of_o reply_n i_o be_o ignorant_a of_o yet_o this_o be_v to_o be_v note_v who_o the_o presbyterian_o make_v a_o market_n of_o this_o scandalous_a name_n of_o independent_o they_o have_v fasten_v on_o we_o viz._n to_o make_v the_o world_n believe_v that_o we_o be_v subject_a to_o no_o law_n that_o neither_o god_n word_n nor_o man_n be_v a_o rule_n to_o we_o for_o this_o be_v the_o natural_a sense_n of_o his_o word_n he_o say_v the_o primitive_a church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o apostle_n law_n ergo_fw-la not_o independent_a as_o if_o we_o hold_v that_o we_o be_v
member_n of_o church_n shall_v be_v thus_o judge_v saint_n because_o all_o the_o ordinance_n that_o christ_n have_v leave_v it_o be_v for_o to_o build_v up_o the_o church_n they_o be_v to_o be_v administer_v in_o the_o church_n now_o none_o have_v right_a to_o the_o ordinance_n but_o saint_n and_o therefore_o none_o may_v be_v admit_v but_o such_o as_o can_v be_v judge_v so_o by_o the_o saint_n again_o for_o the_o former_a which_o we_o say_v be_v consent_n or_o agreement_n whether_o by_o covenant_n or_o any_o other_o way_n we_o stand_v not_o on_o it_o we_o conceive_v first_o it_o arise_v from_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o thing_n the_o church_n be_v a_o politic_a body_n wherein_o be_v rule_v and_o authority_n nothing_o but_o free_a consent_n or_o agreement_n to_o walk_v in_o such_o way_n can_v constitute_v it_o as_o in_o all_o other_o policy_n what_o make_v england_n as_o a_o commonwealth_n or_o as_o a_o church_n to_o be_v such_o a_o policy_n but_o the_o consent_n of_o the_o people_n who_o have_v give_v up_o themselves_o to_o be_v govern_v by_o such_o law_n and_o constitution_n second_o if_o this_o be_v not_o grant_v there_o can_v be_v no_o distinction_n of_o church_n in_o the_o world_n but_o all_o must_v be_v under_o one_o power_n for_o what_o make_v england_n as_o a_o church_n distinct_a from_o scotland_n or_o scotland_n from_o all_o church_n that_o they_o have_v no_o authoritative_a power_n over_o each_o other_o but_o only_o this_o that_o the_o member_n of_o england_n or_o scotland_n have_v not_o consent_v to_o walk_v under_o any_o other_o power_n but_o their_o own_o sure_o the_o bound_n of_o sea_n or_o river_n can_v no_o more_o distinguish_v church_n than_o a_o wall_n or_o a_o door_n can_v if_o there_o be_v no_o other_o distinction_n and_o no_o other_o thing_n but_o consent_n can_v form_v a_o policy_n beside_o scripture_n be_v no_o way_n silent_a for_o the_o proof_n of_o this_o not_o to_o urge_v many_o that_o place_n be_v famous_a and_o may_v serve_v for_o all_o in_o act._n 9_o 26._o paul_n after_o he_o be_v convert_v it_o be_v say_v assay_v to_o join_v himself_o to_o the_o disciple_n at_o jerusalem_n and_o the_o word_n be_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d which_o signify_v to_o be_v glue_v to_o they_o now_o observe_v paul_n be_v convert_v and_o a_o saint_n yet_o not_o join_v to_o the_o church_n he_o be_v in_o that_o place_n where_o they_o be_v he_o be_v join_v to_o they_o as_o they_o be_v saint_n yet_o he_o be_v not_o join_v to_o they_o as_o a_o church_n and_o this_o join_n be_v not_o physical_a but_o moral_a now_o this_o must_v be_v do_v by_o free_a consent_n and_o willing_a subjection_n to_o the_o ordinance_n or_o no_o way_n for_o the_o ordinary_a officer_n of_o the_o church_n they_o be_v pastor_n teacher_n 1_o cor._n 12._o 28._o ephes_n 4._o 11._o teaching-elders_a and_o ruling-elders_a 1_o tim._n 5._o 17._o deacon_n act_n 6._o 1_o tim._n 3._o widow_n 1_o tim._n 5._o 9_o rom._n 16._o 1._o that_o the_o church_n have_v power_n of_o choose_v its_o own_o officer_n be_v clear_a from_o act_n 1._o 21._o act_n 6._o 3._o and_o chap._n 14._o 23._o that_o a_o church_n be_v but_o one_o congregation_n have_v power_n within_o itself_o to_o exercise_v all_o the_o ordinance_n be_v apparent_a in_o the_o new_a testament_n neither_o do_v we_o read_v of_o any_o other_o there_o first_o the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d use_v for_o the_o church_n signify_v no_o other_o neither_o have_v it_o any_o other_o signification_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n when_o refer_v to_o any_o visible_a company_n neither_o be_v it_o use_v by_o any_o profane_a author_n for_o to_o note_v out_o a_o large_a society_n than_o can_v meet_v together_o in_o one_o place_n for_o the_o church_n at_o jerusalem_n it_o be_v but_o one_o church_n act_v 2._o 46._o and_o 5._o 12._o and_o 6._o 1._o and_o 15._o 25._o and_o 21._o 22._o and_o 25._o 22._o so_o the_o church_n of_o antiochia_n be_v but_o one_o church_n act_v 14._o 27._o they_o be_v say_v to_o gather_v the_o church_n together_o now_o that_o can_v not_o be_v the_o elder_n for_o for_o elder_n only_o the_o word_n church_n be_v never_o use_v and_o the_o same_o person_n that_o be_v call_v the_o church_n vers_fw-la 27._o be_v in_o vers_n 28._o call_v the_o disciple_n and_o chap._n 15._o 1._o the_o brethren_n so_o act_v 11._o 26._o the_o same_o person_n be_v call_v the_o church_n disciple_n and_o christian_n beside_o the_o church_n of_o corinth_n be_v but_o one_o church_n be_v but_o one_o particular_a congregation_n 1_o cor._n 5._o 4._o 1_o cor._n 14._o 25._o 1_o cor._n 11._o 17._o vers_fw-la 23._o in_o uno_fw-la &_o codem_fw-la loco_fw-la neither_o can_v the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d ever_o be_v show_v to_o signify_v any_o thing_n else_o beside_o one_o particular_a assembly_n as_o learned_a baines_n well_o observe_v i_o shall_v conclude_v this_o with_o quote_v of_o what_o that_o judicious_a divine_a d._n ames_n say_v in_o this_o particular_a med._n p._n 190._o hine_n variae_fw-la congregationes_fw-la fixae_fw-la ejusdem_fw-la regionis_fw-la ac_fw-la provinciae_fw-la plurali_fw-la numero_fw-la semper_fw-la appellantur_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la non_fw-la una_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la etiam_fw-la in_o judaea_n quae_fw-la tota_fw-la fuit_fw-la antea_fw-la una_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la nationalis_fw-la 23._o act._n 2._o 46._o &_o 15._o 12._o &_o 14._o 27._o 1_o cor._n 5._o 4_o &_o 11._o 17._o 23._o 1_o thes_n 2._o 14._o act_n 14._o 23._o and_o 15._o 41._o rom._n 16._o 4._o 5._o 16._o 1_o cor._n 16._o 1._o 1._o 19_o 2_o cor._n 8._o 1._o 18._o 19_o gal._n 1._o 2._o 22._o 1._o rev._n ecclesiae_fw-la enim_fw-la illae_fw-la particulares_fw-la quae_fw-la in_o n._n t._n commemorantur_fw-la convenice_n solent_fw-la 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d neque_fw-la in_o toto_fw-la n._n t._n legitue_n the_o institutione_n ecclesiae_fw-la amplioris_fw-la a_o quo_fw-la minores_fw-la congregationes_fw-la penderent_fw-la etc._n etc._n thus_o you_o see_v a_o short_a description_n and_o discovery_n of_o what_o we_o hold_v about_o church-government_n with_o some_o scripture_n in_o stead_n of_o other_o that_o move_v we_o to_o this_o way_n the_o reason_n and_o ground_n i_o doubt_v not_o but_o we_o shall_v see_v at_o large_a when_o that_o shall_v be_v make_v public_a which_o our_o brethren_n have_v urge_v in_o the_o assembly_n and_o present_v to_o the_o parliament_n but_o to_o proceed_v for_o that_o part_n wherein_o he_o say_v i_o shall_v have_v prove_v that_o christ_n have_v set_v one_o immutable_a form_n of_o government_n and_o have_v make_v it_o out_o by_o direct_a scripture_n beside_o what_o be_v lay_v down_o in_o the_o observation_n which_o i_o doubt_v not_o to_o make_v good_a against_o he_o cavil_v i_o think_v master_n prin_fw-mi have_v read_v learned_a master_n parker_n de_fw-fr eccles_n pol._n cartwright_n and_o the_o most_o of_o the_o nonconformist_n who_o though_o presbyterial_a in_o their_o judgement_n yet_o have_v large_o prove_v that_o to_o who_o i_o shall_v refer_v he_o for_o large_a satisfaction_n i_o know_v none_o that_o ever_o write_v against_o the_o immutablenesse_n of_o a_o form_n of_o church-government_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n but_o episcopal_a and_o pontificial_a man_n as_o hooker_n bilson_n the_o judgement_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n be_v quite_o contrary_a for_o they_o assert_v their_o presbytery_n to_o be_v jure_fw-la divino_fw-la and_o hold_v its_o title_n only_o from_o heaven_n it_o seem_v the_o presbyterian_o differ_v as_o well_o as_o the_o independent_n and_o they_o be_v also_o various_a in_o their_o judgement_n some_o think_v there_o be_v no_o form_n of_o government_n other_o that_o there_o be_v but_o to_o the_o argument_n first_o 40._o exod._n 25._o 40._o i_o say_v if_o this_o be_v grant_v the_o gospel_n will_v be_v strait_o than_o the_o law_n 5._o heb._n 8._o 5._o christ_n more_o unfaithful_a than_o moses_n and_o the_o argument_n lie_v thus_o according_a to_o his_o own_o draw_v if_o god_n set_v a_o pattern_n to_o moses_n of_o every_o thing_n to_o be_v do_v in_o the_o church_n from_o which_o he_o be_v not_o to_o vary_v upon_o any_o term_n these_o be_v but_o carnal_a ordinance_n comparative_o 10._o heb._n 9_o 10._o then_o he_o have_v prescribe_v a_o form_n of_o government_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n to_o all_o church_n nation_n etc._n etc._n from_o which_o they_o may_v not_o vary_v but_o the_o former_a ergo_fw-la the_o medium_fw-la or_o ground_n of_o argue_v between_o these_o two_o be_v from_o the_o care_n that_o god_n have_v of_o the_o church_n at_o all_o time_n be_v one_o and_o the_o same_o rather_o more_o in_o the_o new_a testament_n god_n have_v show_v less_o care_n over_o his_o church_n now_o than_o then_o if_o he_o have_v not_o prescribe_v a_o set_a government_n for_o they_o also_o beside_o their_o ordinance_n have_v be_v more_o spiritual_a far_o than_o we_o
some_o epistle_n be_v write_v to_o some_o church_n before_o other_o according_a as_o occasion_n be_v and_o the_o revelation_n discover_v last_o as_o concern_v the_o last_o age_n of_o the_o church_n yet_o so_o as_o still_o at_o length_n that_o the_o whole_a scripture_n shall_v be_v write_v and_o leave_v as_o the_o mind_n of_o god_n to_o all_o age_n and_o unless_o master_n pryn_n say_v that_o the_o church_n constitute_v by_o the_o apostle_n have_v not_o at_o length_n a_o full_a discovery_n of_o church-government_n he_o have_v no_o ground_n to_o think_v they_o be_v not_o so_o complete_a as_o the_o follow_a church_n my_o ten_o querie_n say_v he_o he_o wilful_o misrecites_a as_o he_o do_v the_o rest_n and_o then_o return_v a_o answer_n by_o way_n of_o dilemma_n otherwise_o charity_n will_v have_v prompt_v you_o otherwise_o to_o which_o he_o answer_v thus_o that_o if_o the_o parliament_n and_o synod_n shall_v by_o public_a consent_n establish_v a_o presbyterian_a government_n as_o consonant_a to_o the_o word_n the_o law_n and_o regiment_n of_o this_o kingdom_n independent_o and_o all_o other_o be_v bind_v in_o conscience_n to_o submit_v under_o pain_n of_o obstinacy_n singularity_n in_o case_n they_o can_v prove_v it_o diametral_o opposite_a to_o the_o scripture_n etc._n etc._n something_o have_v be_v say_v in_o answer_n to_o this_o before_o yet_o further_o if_o master_n pryn_n mean_v by_o submit_v that_o actual_o we_o must_v yield_v to_o the_o presbyterial_a judgement_n and_o on_o the_o first_o set_v of_o it_o up_o present_o lie_v down_o every_o thought_n of_o reason_n and_o argument_n we_o have_v raise_v up_o against_o it_o and_o say_v it_o be_v the_o way_n of_o christ_n and_o the_o only_a way_n which_o we_o must_v serve_v christ_n in_o if_o he_o think_v any_o of_o we_o to_o have_v the_o least_o principle_n of_o reason_n he_o can_v imagine_v we_o shall_v do_v so_o but_o if_o he_o mean_v thus_o that_o we_o ought_v not_o to_o stand_v against_o that_o authority_n that_o set_v it_o up_o but_o submit_v to_o the_o penalty_n if_o the_o least_o can_v in_o conscience_n be_v impose_v which_o shall_v be_v lay_v on_o we_o we_o grant_v it_o i_o hope_v we_o shall_v not_o be_v find_v despiser_n of_o authority_n in_o that_o but_o shall_v expect_v as_o great_a assistance_n from_o jesus_n christ_n as_o ever_o you_o do_v in_o a_o matter_n far_o low_o even_o the_o write_n against_o a_o bishop_n court_n or_o a_o cardinal_n cap_n as_o cross_v the_o statute_n of_o the_o land_n and_o as_o you_o confess_v but_o a_o matter_n of_o mere_a opinion_n i_o speak_v not_o this_o to_o upbraid_v you_o or_o detract_v from_o your_o suffering_n which_o be_v indeed_o badge_n of_o honour_n not_o of_o shame_n but_o as_o far_o as_o yourself_o detract_v from_o they_o in_o tell_v we_o the_o true_a ground_n of_o they_o that_o we_o may_v not_o too_o much_o glory_n in_o you_o these_o place_n you_o so_o often_o quote_v rom._n 13._o 1._o 1._o tim._n 2._o 1._o etc._n etc._n they_o make_v as_o much_o for_o heathen_a magistrate_n as_o christian_a and_o in_o every_o thing_n as_o well_o as_o any_o thing_n if_o it_o be_v mean_v of_o actual_a obedience_n to_o his_o cross_n interrogatories_n say_v he_o i_o answer_v first_o that_o if_o the_o pope_n council_n command_v lawful_a thing_n to_o they_o that_o be_v under_o their_o power_n they_o ought_v to_o be_v obey_v as_o well_o as_o the_o command_n of_o heathen_a emperor_n magistrate_n parent_n by_o christian_a subject_n wife_n servant_n live_v under_o they_o notwithstanding_o this_o the_o argument_n be_v still_o in_o force_n that_o heathen_a emperor_n be_v to_o be_v obey_v as_o well_o as_o any_o christian_a magistrate_n if_o that_o as_o magistrate_n they_o must_v be_v obey_v for_o that_o you_o say_v and_o seem_v to_o make_v a_o distinction_n of_o it_o if_o they_o command_v lawful_a thing_n but_o the_o question_n be_v still_o who_o shall_v be_v judge_n of_o that_o be_v it_o not_o as_o great_a a_o reason_n that_o i_o shall_v be_v judge_n of_o the_o lawfulness_n of_o the_o thing_n i_o be_o to_o obey_v as_o the_o magistrate_n shall_v judge_v of_o that_o he_o command_v to_o be_v lawful_a if_o this_o be_v not_o grant_v blind_a obedience_n must_v necessary_o follow_v if_o i_o obey_v because_o he_o judge_v it_o lawful_a i_o obey_v not_o out_o of_o a_o principle_n of_o judgement_n concern_v the_o thing_n but_o mere_o because_o of_o the_o command_n what_o blind_a obedience_n there_o can_v be_v i_o know_v not_o again_o as_o before_o either_o the_o power_n command_v be_v to_o be_v obey_v or_o else_o the_o thing_n themselves_o command_v obedience_n if_o the_o former_a that_o be_v alike_o to_o all_o magistrate_n and_o in_o every_o thing_n there_o must_v be_v obedience_n where_o that_o power_n be_v if_o for_o the_o latter_a than_o the_o thing_n themselves_o bind_v and_o then_o i_o must_v needs_o see_v it_o to_o be_v lawful_a and_o that_o necessity_n of_o sin_v put_v upon_o a_o man_n by_o this_o be_v not_o take_v away_o by_o any_o thing_n i_o see_v in_o master_n pryn_n reason_n for_o if_o i_o obey_v not_o the_o power_n command_v of_o lawful_a thing_n i_o sin_n if_o i_o do_v obey_v before_o i_o be_o convince_v of_o the_o lawfulness_n of_o it_o or_o have_v a_o scruple_n or_o doubt_n of_o its_o unlawfulnesse_n much_o more_o when_o i_o positive_o think_v so_o i_o sin_n against_o god_n and_o he_o will_v condemn_v i_o as_o a_o hypocrite_n a_o timeserver_n as_o one_o sin_v against_o my_o light_n and_o contradict_v these_o motion_n that_o for_o aught_o i_o know_v be_v from_o his_o good_a spirit_n god_n care_v not_o for_o nay_o will_v condemn_v whatever_o be_v do_v without_o knowledge_n though_o the_o thing_n themselves_o be_v what_o he_o have_v command_v so_o that_o either_o we_o shall_v entreat_v master_n pryn_n to_o give_v we_o new_a eye_n or_o else_o not_o to_o censure_v we_o if_o we_o actual_o follow_v not_o that_o we_o have_v no_o knowledge_n in_o second_o say_v he_o there_o be_v a_o great_a difference_n between_o matter_n of_o opininion_n only_o and_o of_o practice_n as_o whether_o episcopacy_n be_v jure_fw-la divino_fw-la etc._n etc._n though_o the_o resolution_n of_o a_o synod_n and_o parliament_n shall_v be_v affirmative_a they_o can_v not_o bind_v my_o judgement_n say_v he_o absolute_o so_o far_o as_o to_o subscribe_v to_o their_o opinion_n as_o a_o undoubted_a truth_n unless_o they_o can_v satisfy_v my_o argument_n yet_o they_o shall_v and_o ought_v to_o bind_v i_o to_o practice_v so_o if_o the_o parliament_n and_o synod_n shall_v establish_v any_o church-government_n though_o it_o bind_v not_o independent_o to_o be_v simple_o of_o their_o opinion_n or_o unless_o your_o reason_n and_o argument_n be_v sufficient_a to_o convince_v their_o judgement_n yet_o it_o bind_v they_o in_o point_n of_o practice_n and_o obedience_n outward_o to_o submit_v thereunto_o this_o argument_n contradict_v the_o fundamental_o of_o religion_n and_o give_v way_n to_o the_o great_a hypocrisy_n in_o the_o world_n this_o be_v that_o god_n require_v in_o all_o service_n that_o the_o heart_n and_o the_o head_n and_o the_o hand_n go_v together_o to_o oppose_v the_o practice_n and_o the_o judgement_n in_o spiritual_a obedience_n be_v to_o separate_v the_o soul_n from_o the_o body_n and_o bid_v the_o body_n act_n god_n have_v put_v the_o understanding_n in_o a_o man_n to_o be_v a_o light_n to_o his_o path_n a_o man_n understanding_n be_v a_o man_n practice_n as_o the_o eye_n to_o the_o body_n without_o which_o it_o can_v walk_v safe_o and_o man_n may_v be_v what_o they_o will_v if_o this_o be_v true_a that_o a_o man_n judgement_n may_v be_v one_o way_n and_o a_o man_n practice_n another_o a_o man_n may_v deny_v god_n break_v the_o sabbath_n swear_v in_o his_o practice_n so_o his_o judgement_n be_v contrary_a but_o it_o may_v be_v master_n pryn_n mean_v it_o of_o indifferent_a thing_n mere_o circumstantial_a but_o i_o hope_v he_o account_v not_o matter_n of_o worship_n and_o church-government_n so_o whatever_o be_v not_o of_o faith_n be_v sin_n no_o man_n practice_n can_v be_v of_o faith_n who_o know_v not_o what_o he_o do_v lawful_a much_o less_o who_o judgement_n be_v contrary_a it_o be_v true_a matter_n of_o opinion_n be_v one_o thing_n if_o it_o be_v a_o mere_a opinion_n that_o be_v not_o reducible_a to_o practice_v and_o i_o may_v only_o hold_v a_o opinion_n and_o be_v contradict_v by_o high_a power_n though_o i_o may_v not_o be_v convince_v yet_o i_o may_v be_v silent_a but_o when_o thing_n come_v to_o be_v press_v on_o i_o to_o practice_v and_o that_o in_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n and_o my_o judgement_n be_v not_o satisfy_v than_o i_o must_v be_v convince_v or_o else_o it_o be_v a_o sin_n for_o i_o to_o practice_v how_o master_n pryn_n think_v in_o his_o