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ground_n	church_n	scripture_n	tradition_n	3,070	5	9.4971	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A40227	The papists strength, principles, and doctrines (which they are sworn to preach, from the Councel of Trent, by the Popes authority, and after confirmed by the last General Assembly at Rouen, 1571, all which they have sworn to perform) answered and confuted furthermore their principles and doctrines answered and confuted, as they were laid down in two or three severall papers, by R.W. papist, lately sent from Holland : also a challenge to the pope and all his adherents to choose out of all his dominions some cardinals, fryers, or Jesuits to try their bread and wine, after consecration (by watching on their side and on our side) to prove that if afterward they have consecrated it, whether the bread and wine doth not loose its taste and savour, and so not the body and blood of Christ : also a paper to all them that fast and afflict themselves who are in the will-worship and voluntary humility : also some quæries to all the papists upon earth to be answered in writing and sent to them, which all sects upon the earth call Quakers / by George Fox.	Fox, George, 1624-1691.; Howgill, Francis, 1618-1669.	1658 (1658)	Wing F1877; ESTC R3577	83,037	105

lives unto the death And sometimes they have been more visible and sometimes lesse yet two or three that know the name of Christ and live in the power of Christ Christ is in the midst of them and they may be truly said to be a Church of Christ and these God hath promised to be with who believeth in Christ the power of God to the end of the world and against these the gates of hell shall never prevail And whereas thou saist He gave some Apostles and some Evangelists Pastors and Teachers for the worke of the Ministry for the perfecting of the Saints This is granted and it did and doth effect the same end for which he gave it But when ordained he the Popes the Cardinals the Fryars the Monks the Jesuites the Nun● for the work of the Ministry or whether have any of all these effected the same things which the Apostles did by their gifts But rather on the contrary They have perverted the straight way of the Lord and have made the word of God of none effect by their traditions and hath introduced and brought in those things to be observed amongst people which God hath neither commanded nor commended but on the contrary forbidden and condemned 3 Prin. That all those people or Congregations or meetings or Churches which have not been constantly visible from Christs time till now are not nor cannot be the Church of Christ and then thou makes this conclusion that the Roman Church can shew its constant and successive visibility from Christs time till now therefore the Roman Church must needs be the Church of Christ Answ. By thy own words thou hast proved your Church to be no Church of Christ neither your officers and Ministers to be Ministers of Christ for Matthew Mark Luke and John Peter Paul and the rest of the Apostles makes no mention of any such officers as Po●es Cardinals Fryars Monks nor Jesuites neither of any such doctrine did they allow of as you preach to wit the doct●ine of Devils in forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats wch God hath created and also teac●ing to make Images and set up Images and Idols and also teaching to burn and kill and destroy them whom you call Hereticks which Christ nor none of the Apostles ever did So that it is manifest from the Scripture of truth that your visible Church was not always since Christs day for Peter Paul and many of the Apostles lived after Christs day and they make no mention of any such ministry doctrine or practice as is found amongst you onely foretels of you and prophesies of you that Antichrist should come Deceivers should come and false prophets should come and Peter whose successors you say you are he foretold of you and hath left his testimony against you against them who preach for filthy lucre those things the Apostles taught not Amongst many things this is one in teaching and making people believe a purgatory after they be dead and this was invented by you to get filthy lucre and to get dishonest gain Another thing to give pardons that you may get money and filthy lucre so that it is manifest you are none of Peters successors but are apostatized from the faith from the doctrine from the practice of Christ of the Churches of Christ in the dayes of the Apostles and were not visible then nor counted the Church of Christ by any in many years a●ter the decease of the Apostles But the false Prophets that Christ spake should come which John and Paul and Peter saw creeping in then who erred from the faith and apostatized from the truth who subverted whole housholds from the faith there 's your originall they that did subvert and they that were subverted and held part of the form of godlinesse denyed the power there is the beginning of your visible Church Antichrists false Prophets Seducers and seduced you are their successors and from thence your visibility came to be seen in the world So in that which I have said doth clearly evidence that you have not constantly visibly had the name of a Church since Christs time although you call your selves the ancient Church And I say unto thee in thine owne words Except thou be bewitched and possessed with a spirit of blindnesse here is enough to convince thee and all thy visible members that your Roman Church is not so ancient as Christ nor the Apostles But you are quite another thing which hath sprung up since and are apostatized from the Doctrine and from the Faith which the Churches which were before you were in as the Church at Jerusalem at Antioch and the rest of the Churches which had received the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ without respect of persons from which faith you are now reprobated 4 Principle Thou saist that Luther Calvin Memno Beza and others were first popish Priests and those that followed them was first of the Church of Rome and these thou saist fell from the Faith and were accounted by you Hereticks and sayes they ought to produce more evidence for their faith which they professed being separated from you then you need to do from whom they separated Answ. They are Hereticks who denies the true foundation and who erre from the true faith which the Saints possessed and and lived in But your visible Church have left the true foundation and have erred from the faith which Christ and the Apostles declared and lived in therefore you are the Hereticks Therefore Luther Calvin Memno and Beza and the rest seeing your Doctrine Principles and Faith to be contrary to the Doctrine of Christ and the Primitive Churches God opening their eyes and let them see that you had innovated and brought in another Doctrine and other practices then had been taught or practised amongst the Apostles therefore they denyed yo● in many things although they were not clearly come off your principles nor did not see clearly thorow your deceit yet so far as they saw by the light of the Lord they bore testimony against you and gave a clearer demonstration that you were out of the faith then you ever did or can do that you were in the Faith But that is made manifest in this the day of the Lords power which sees over you and beyond you and comprehends your ground and all the body of your Religion which stands in imitations imaginations inventions and traditions And further thou saith that you can bring more Scripture for your Catholique doctrin then they that are separated from you and thou brings two Scriptures to prove some of your doctrine and sayest that the Church of Rome teaches that Christs body is reall in the Sacrament for which thou brings the 11 Cor. 23 24. verses which proves nothing to the purpose for the body of Christ is incorruptible and saw no corruption But bread corrupt● and will corrupt notwithstand●ng all your consecration but as concerning this I shall refer the

like they that have a horn to call their hounds together or the Swine-heard for people to put forth Swine or hower-glasses to preach by the hower prove it by scripture else acknowledge your are in the Apostacy and have set up ●hese things by your own inventions and are them that limit the spirit 62. Where did ever the Apostles consecrate any thing or the scripture speak of Sacraments or where did the Apostles use that which you call holy Water to sprinkle people withal if you cannot shew it by scripture where the Apostles or Christ di● practise any such thing acknowledge your selves that you be in the Apostacy that have set up such things since the dayes of the Apostles and erred from the true Church in your inventions 63. Where did the Apostles when they went to preach or to pray put on white Hoods Copes Tippets white Surplisses and cornered Caps are not all these things got up since the dayes of the Apostles amongst such as are apostat●z●d from them 64. Who are the inwardly Raveners that Christ said should come which was the false Prophets which should have the Sheeps clothing but inwardly ravening Wolves an inwardly ravening Wolf worse then a dog which got the sheeps clothing is not this it that has made war against the Saints that kept the testimony of Jesus the Spirit of prophesy and has not the wolf been covered with the sheeps clothing long such as ravined from the spirit such as has inwardly ravened and would ravine and destroy all that be contrary minded 65. Have not men fallen into the flesh since the dayes of the Apostacy and ravined from the spirit that went forth from the Apostles are not they them that has set up all these outward things as Temples Tythes Priests crosses crucifixes Schooles Colledges to make them Ministers Images Idols Abbies Nunneries Candels Altars Holy waters Praying by Beads sprinkling children with the sign of the crosse and have not you gone back who are ravened from the spirit and so lost the substance and so imitating Aaron and his Sons and imitating Altars and outward things that stood in Moses which the Apostle sayes while Moses was read the veil was over their hearts 66. Was not the first Priest-hood a true tipe and the Temple a true tipe of the inward and the Sanctuary and Altar a tipe and the outward things in the Law shadowing forth the good things that were to come which were but to have their times and seasons and did not the Apostle witnesse the substance of all tipes figures and shadows and signs and similitudes and likenesses and witnessed that which gave him to see where there was no shadow nor changing Now are not all your tythes Temples Priests Altars Crosses Crucifixes Images Similitudes Beads Cloysters Abbies Nunneries set up by your own inventions which men and people has been compelled to worship are not all these lying signs and wonders and the worship of the beast that which they that inwardly ravened set up and is not this to give worship to them that inwardly ravined from the spirit of God who are the Wolves that ●an make a profession of Christs and the Apostles words the Beast and false Prophets which the world has wondred after and should deceive them with their lying signes and wonders Did not the Apostles give hints of such things before their decease did not John see such come as the whole world went after and all that dwelt upon the earth worshipped the Beast Now answer me these things and clear me them by Scripture where the Apostles did practise or act any such things before mentioned and if ye be not such that John and the Apostles speaks of and Christ that should be the inward ravening wolves and go forth from the Apostles which John saw all that dwelt upon the earth worshipped and went after and all that dwelt upon the earth drunk the cup of fornication and should deceive them that dwell upon the earth with their lying signes and wonders and miracles and if you be not them tell me who they are 67 What is the Beast and the number of his names and what are his names and what is his marke that they that would not receive should be persecuted And what is his image and what are his heads and what are his crowns and what is the mother of the harlots and what is the great whore which hath corrupted the earth and what is the cup of fornication that all Nations has drunk of and who are the Beast and false Prophets what are they that are come up since the dayes of the Apostles How to say you believe as the Church believes and you will not trouble your selves about the Scriptures because they are hard to ●e understood you are to see that you be of the Church that the Apostles were of which was the pillar and ground of truth which was without spot or wrinkle or blemish and so their belief stood in Christ and God And when any did wrong yea Peter Peter was withstood and not believed as he believed And as for saying the Scriptures are hard to be understood that is to shew you want the spi●it as was in them that gave them forth in which is the unity and the bond of peace And none comes to be a member of the Church in God the pillar and ground of truth without spot or wrinkle or blemish but who comes into the spirit that they were in that gave forth the Scriptures with which spirit every one in particular hath his particular satisfaction in the Scripture it opens it to them with which spirit he hath unity with God unity with the Scriptures of whom they learned that gave them forth and there is the bond of peace Now to tye up men to believe as others believe and to compell them by a law or a prison or an inquisition this was not in the true Church but this is a marke of the apostacy from it and is a marke that they that do so are the wresters of the Scriptures and err'd ravened from the spirit that they were in that gave them forth For it was not their worke to compell people by a Law by a prison by an Inquisition to obey their faith and to bring them into their worship and doctrine that was not the worke of them that had the spirit that gave forth the Scriptures but this shews and signifies and declares it selfe forth that you would have power over mens faith which saith the Apostles we have not but bade them look at Jesus the author of the faith And again to believe as others believe which do call themselves a Church Is not this different from the Apostles doctrine who saith he that believes hath the witnesse in himself and hast thou faith have it to thy self 68 Is your Church the body of Christ and is your bread the body of Christ after consecration and is that bread after you have consecrated it the Church

Spirit of God And are the wolves in sheeps clothing worrying the Lambs that comes to witness Christ in them the substance and hath proved and examined themselves and found him and so there people sticking in that they call the sign and keeping people from the substance receiving Christ Jesus in them for these things was to be done in remembrance of Christ until he came now if bread and wine be the body of Christ and his bloud then he is come how do you that in remembrance of him untill he come was they to eate his body and drink his bloud till he come did he go away in the Spirit and leave his body behind answer this whether or no his body did not rise and whether his body be elementary there was a Protestant against you that said the body of Christ was corruptible and you said the bread and wine is the body and bloud of Christ and that will corrupt and so we see you all in the error Pr. He saith the bare form of bread and wine doth change And though the light lead up to Christ they see nothing but that which doth change namely bread and wine Answ. Hear thou hast confounded thy self and all the Papists the whole body of them and confounded your own wisdom and knowledge and your own faith in things you do professe fo● the body of Christ and his bloud doth not change and yet you say that bread and wine after consecration is the very body and bloud of Christ and hear you say doth change which is not comparable to the body and bloud of Christ that corrupts not nor changes not in this you have confounded your selves and blinded your souls in looking at things which are seen which the Divel and wicked ones out of the light do run into which you poor Creatures are captivated under his power things that are not seen are invisible but things that are seen as bread and wine are visible Pr. Our faith and doctrine is that Jesus Christ hath but one body and that the same body which is in that Sacrament shall come at last to judge us all Answ. The body of Christ which you call the bread after consecration which thou hast confessed is a changeable thing the ●orm of bread that which is changeable is not a judge Christ and his body is not changeable so therefore to judge and shall remain his body when bread and wine ceases So in this thou hast overthrown your own doctrine and faith and foundation and proved your selves to be stones of Babylon who with them builds up and throwes down again Pr. Whereas thou Queriest whether God is able to make one body to be in two or two thousand places at once Answ. The body of Christ is his flesh which he gives for the life of the world which they that eat it and feed upon it are of his flesh and lives for ever and are in more places then one comes to be of his flesh and of his bone and at this the Jewes stumbled that followed him for temporal bread and if temporal bread had been the body of Christ why would he bid them labour not for the meat that perisheth and that he said well in saying this is may body this is my bloud and except ye eat my flesh and drink my b●●ud ye have no life in you but he did not tell the people after they had consecrated bread and wine that it was his body and bloud and he would drink with them in the Kingdom and did Christ eate his own body and drink his own bloud answer these Queries we see that the body of Christ is hid from you all Papists and Protestants and his flesh and his bloud and his word● are spirit and life and that remains and bread and wine it is the elements did it come down from above from heaven after you have consecrated it is it not the wine that came of the grapes and the bread which was baked Christs body which is the bread is above the Manna which is given from heaven much more far above the bread of man Christ the true bread far above Angles-food is the body of Christ which who eates it lives for ever they that eated the Manna the Angels-food perished in the wildernesse many of them and far above mans bread that 's temporal and drink which they may eate and drink and hunger and thurst again and perish and which will perish Which they that decernes the Lords body decernes him that gives every creature its being the word of God by which all things was made and none of the figures nor shadowes nor types are the body of Christ but that which ends them all to you that is the word of the Lord which body was before they were which body is the Church the Piller and ground of truth and bread is not the Church after consecration for the Apostles never told us of that doctrine no vvhere in the Scriptures but you that of the body of Christ be ignorant the Top-stone is laid on your heads and the body of Christ makes us free from the Lavv Pr. We do not teach that bread after the consecration is the flesh of Christ but we say that after Christ had uttered these words this is my body or after the Priests according to Christs command do this in remembrance of me do utter the same words which we call consecration then the substance of bread vanisheth and is no more there but the body of Christ commeth in its place Answ. This again is confusion and you are confused and confounded in your own principles if the bread and wine which you say is not the flesh of Christ after consecration how is his body there and how can you say it is his body And thus you confound your selves Pr. Thou saist thou dost not find any expresse command of the Apostle in Scripture for observing of dayes nor meats nor none of these things as meats or crosses but what the Church shall command and saith but the Church hath commanded us to observe dayes and meats and that a crosse should be made in remembrance of Christs passion and the Images of Christ and his Saints may be set up and honored and that we should invoke the Saints c. and whatsoever the Church commandeth us And this is the sure and unmoveable ground upon which our Catholique faith even to the very least circumstance and ceremony is built c. And the contrary ground is the ground of all Hereticks Answ. We do believe you that all these observing of meats dayes and crosses is set up by your Churches command and all your Tythes Priests Pulpits and Temples amongst you and the Protestants which hath been set up by your Church command which is offended if they be not observed which is set up since the dayes of the Apostles which is Apostatized from the Apostles and the true Church in the Apostacy and are fallen into schisms and

heresies and lying signes which is your crosse who are gone from the power of God which is the cross of Christ who are them which the Spirit spoke of expresly before the Apostles decease that should depart from the faith forbidding eating of meats and marriage which is the Divels doctrin who has given heed to seducing spirits now you may see it is your Mother which you call the Church which is the Mother of Harlots which your Mother harlotted from the true Church the Apostles doctrin for the true Church of the Apostles did never command that men should abstayn from meats or set up a crosse of wood or stone or worship Images or Saints or names or bow down to them but worship God and worship not the Angels Now these things hath been sett up since the dayes of the Apostles in the Apostacy from the true Church which has made war against the Saints and over-come them but now is the Saints and the Lamb come to have victory and now the Lamb and Saints will have victory who is come to reign and the holy Prophets and the Saints shall rejoyce over you sing and rejoyce ye heavens and rejoyce ye Saints and holy Prophets over her That 's your Church which is inwardly ravened from the spirit of God and has reigned over the Kings of the earth and all other that hath had the name of Christianity out of the life of Christ found in your skirts the Lamb will tread you together in the press without the City of the living God the Church which is the Pillar and ground of truth against which the gates of hell cannot prevail though they may fall all on heaps one among another about their worships And we say that your Mother the Church so called hath commanded and laid the foundation of tythes amongst the Protestants and all their observing of Saints dayes holy dayes and you have been them that has taught them to give the names yea to their Schooles Colleges Steeple-houses which were your mass-houses which the Protestants has made their Churches of them you were the first root and layer of the ground and Author of them you and they are all judged with the Spirit which is not Apostacy which was before Apostacy was Pr. I say again that Christ is not without a body and the same body which is in the Sacrament is that which was born of the Virgin Mary which dyed for us and now sitteth at the right hand of God and none other Answ. Heaven is above and earth is beneath there is an earthly body and there is a heavenly body a naturall and a spirituall and if that which was born of the Virgin Mary be your bread after consecration which body saw no corruption though put in the grave Now see if your bread which you call the body of Christ will not corrupt after it lye a while though you have consecrated it then how can you say that is the body of Christ at the right hand of God and outward bread which will corrupt which the body of Christ saw none which was born of the Virgin the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world yet he did not corrupt nor saw no corruption Pr. And to say is Christ to be looked for in the Saints is so profound that he cannot reach the depth of the meaning the Roman Catholiques use no such manner of speech Answ. I do believe you Since the dayes of the Apostles amongst you that are got up in your likenesses and Images that sayes its so profound you cannot reach the meaning of it to ask you whether Christ be in the Saints and amongst the Roman Catholiques you have no such manner of speech I do believe you And so you put him in the Sacrament without you and call the bread and wine his body and blood so this is to prove your selves to be reprobates so are judged by the Apostles doctrine and the Scripture Know you not in your own selves how that Jesus Christ is in you except ye be reprobates Priest The more honour we give to Saints the more honour we give to Christ Indeed to give godly honour to Saints is to commit idolatry Answ. If that you do not give godly honour to the Saints it is ungodly and here in this you have again confounded your selves and that honour which belongs to the Saints is of God and godly and not idolatry but that honour which you give which is not godly is given to such which are not Saints which is idolatry and so that honour which you should give to God you give to Images in kneeling to them and so in that you are as the heathen and are found idolaters which never did any of the Apostles kneel before an Image but you that inwardly ravened from the Spirit of God and so lost the image of God and fallen down to Images Pr. A Crosse a Crucifix or an Image of Christ or any Saint whether they be made of silver stone or wood are according to our doctrine but dead creatures neverthelesse are profitable and honourable memorials of them and do much help our devotion and demonstrate our love and affection to them and they are not Idols but they represent unto us Christ and his Saints Answ. So then they being but dead things and you bowing to dead things is to Idols for bowing to a dead stock or a stone is a bowing to Idols as saith the Prophet and dead images Now you having them as you say to represent unto you Christ and to put you in minde of him and the Saints shews that you have not Christs spirit in you nor him in you nor his mind in you so are reprobates and are none of his for those that have Christ in them and his minde in them need no such representations as to put them in minde of Christ or to fall down before Crosses Crucifixes Images dead things to stir up the love towards Ch●ist which the blood of Christ purgeth the conscience from dead workes and not to bow down to dead Images but thi● shews the love of God is not in you Dead things do not stirre up the love of God in people but the faith which works by love this stirs up the love towards Christ who is the Author of it and the Saints to make Images of the Saints and observing of dayes shews that you are not come to just mens spirits which who are need no other thing to put them in mind nor observe dayes for they see over dayes and so in these principles I see ye are reprobates concerning the faith which works by love for the love of God is not in you you are not come to the j●st mens spirits so not to the Church of the living God the mind of Christ you have not his spirit ye have not and Christ is not in you and so in the reprobation in the apostacy and are fain to have dead Images and pictures and crosses dead

representations to put you in mind of Christ and to stir up your love otherwise it would grow cold and that is the nature that will murther and all those things Images Crosses are held up by the spirit of murther and not by the power of God the cross of Christ Pr. In some particulars he saith there is no difference between them and the heathens as first I confesse their Idols are made of silver wood and stone and so are our Images their Idols were but dead creatures which had eyes and see not and so are our Images they bow to their Idols and we bow to our Images so far the resemblance is good and the heathens do believe that their Idols were able to help them and we say our Images and Idols stirs up our love to Christ Answ. So therein the Images helps you as the Heathens do and you may see that all those things are got up since the dayes of the Apostles you that be inwardly ravened from the spiri of God and gotten the sheeps cloathing as the Jews and the Gentiles which was astray from the spirit of God worshipping Images Idols which when the Jews was in the spirit of God they kept above them all So you being gone from the spirit of the Lord are fallen under Images and dead Idols since the days of the Apostles and bows down to them as the heathens they are dead a● the Heathens and so you are aposta●ized from the spirit of God in which God is worshipped and apostatized from the true Church who said Keep your selves from Idols for there was never any talk of worshipping of Images and bowing to Images amongst them but the Jewes while they lived in the law of God they broke down the Images of the Heathens so all that be in the life of God will break down the founder of the Images amongst you Apostates which sees not and hears not And Jeremiah saying to them that worshipped Images who said unto a stone thou art my father and to the wood thou hast brought me forth So say you to your Images Pictures and Crosses thou putst us in minde thou art our similitude and puts us in minde of Christ of Mary and shewing that you have not the minde of Christ in you but dead stocks and stones must put you in minde so this of yours is a higher mystery of iniquity then that of the heathen Pr. You say you account of the pictures no more then we account of any picture or pictures in our houses Answ. That is not so thou dost not speak with the bit in thy mouth we do not fall down to them but deny them Pr. And the heathens did all kinde of godly honour directly to their Idols but the small honour which we do to the Images or pictures of the Saints is no more then an outward complement as I may say just as it was the fashion in England to put off ones hat or bow to the Kings Throne in honour of the King Neither do we this honour to the pictures simply considered as pictures but as they are representations of Christ and his Saints Answ. That honour which the heathen did to their Idols was not godly honour for that which gave the honour to the Idols might be confounded before that came up that gave the godly honour to God though they worshipped the creatures and served idols who should have worshipped the Creator who is God blessed for ever and served him and your bowing and kneeling down to Images and before them it is the worship of the Beast and that is more then a complement to kneel down and bow down to Images which you call representations and this is come up and got up amongst you since the power of God hath been lost which should have brought you to have bowed down to the Lord and to have prayed in the spirit and to have had him in your mindes and not an Idoll to put him in your minds And the bowing before the Kings Throne in the Kings absence and the hat in England that is but the dead minde that bows the dead hat to the dead throne and a dead honour and so all the honour that is given to Images is but a dead honour given from the dead principle and not from the living principle of God within which brings to worship God who never accepts the other and that bowing the hat before the Kings Throne in the Kings absence is denyed by all that fears God and judged and worships him and bows to him for that is sup●rstition your bowing before images and pictures and crosses as bad worse then that prof●sse Christ and have him not in your minds then the heathens bowing to Molock Baal Jupiter Bac●hus Venus c whose spirits are as unclean as theirs who have set up Images and Crosses to bow down to them You are the unclean spirits as the heathen and a higher mystery of iniquity then the heathen but now is discovered by that which hath long been hid by the light Christ Jesus and the seed of God which hath discovered the mystery of iniquity which is the mistery of godlin●sse and all these pictures crosses and bowings is come up since the days of the Apostles for amongst them there was no such things Amongst you who have lost the power of God the Crosse of Christ and the image of God and has not the mind of Christ in you so are fain to have dead images crosses and pictures which you call representations to put your dead minds in remembrance of Christ and to stir it up which kills and slayes the just all that be contrary to it and the heathen and you do not differ for they bow to Images and so do you but yours as I have said is a greater mistery of iniquity who has fled from the true foundation of the true Church which is the pillar and ground of truth and so since have got up your images and idols Pr. Now because the main thing which you do carp at is at our bowing before Images or pictures of the Saints to the end that all your mouths may eternally be stopt I will shew you out of the Scripture that notwithstanding the bowing down to Idols is most strictly forbidden in the second command●ment and other places of Scripture yet was it lawfull both to make honour and bow down to other images and other representations although they were but dead creatures and the worke of mens hands The Arke of the Covenant you must confess was but a dead creature made of wood and other materials by the hands of men and upon this Arke were placed two Images or representations of Cherubims read the 7 of Joshua vers. 6. and you will finde that he and all Israel did worship and fall down before this Ark and these Images after the same manner that we fall down before a Crosse or a Crucifix or the Images of the Saints Answ.

was not the work of the Apostles nor of them that kept the faith of Gods elect that gives victory over the world and so those whom you call bad and those whom you call good are all found one here having drank the whores cup found in the fornication without husband out of the true humility which is Christ the seed that bears the sin and iniquity Pr. You take offence because the Roman faith doth teach it lawfull to punish Schismaticks and Hereticks with the sword but if you will be mad and say that those which seduce mens souls cause schisms and heresies in the Church and disturb the peace thereof must be let alone and may in no wise be punished who can help it Answ. The faith of the true Church did not teach any such doctrine to punish Schismaticks and Hereticks or Seducers with an outward sword but said on the contrary their weapons was not carnall but spirituall Now the carnall weapons who punish them you call Hereticks and Schismaticks whose Church is disturbed by such You shew you have not the power to convince gainsayers stop the mouths of them and make them to confess that God is in you of a truth and this doth shew that you are reprobated from the true faith which the Apostles were in and of Christ who said love your enemies and if any one smite thee on the one cheek turn the other novv the beast and false Prophets and the Anti-christs Mother of Harlots should drink the bloud of the Saints Martyrs and Prophets and kill them which the faith and patience of the Saints did not rise against now again the Lamb and the Saints should have the victory which should slay with the sword which are the words of his mouth not vvrestle against flesh and bloud killing creatures but over-comming with the bloud of the Lamb And here is the faith and patience of the Saints whose Kingdom is not of this world but you that are killing with the sword fire and fagots and inquisition bowing before Images Idols Pictures crosses these be all of this world and Kingdomes of it carnal weapons and carnal things held up by the carnal and not spiritual Now of your speaking of the Magistrates of the higher power which is higher then all Image-makers and Idols which gave them to see before transgression was which Transgresser set up Idols and Images which they in the higher power broke down that was the work of the Magistrates and they had the wisdom to make the true figure and shadow which Christ came to put an end to And they that set up Images Idols since the dayes of the Apostles and Pictures and crosses and holds them up by an outward power and Magistrates and compels others to bow down to them is the worship of the beast and not the worship of God and this I declare in the presence of the Lord God and all the Magistrates that be in Gods fear they will break down your Idols and Images and cross●s and crucifixes and masse-houses Schooles and Colledges which you make Priests and Ministers in which they that know the Ministers made by the will of God will do this and the exposition of the Scriptures by your Church we cannot own which is Apostatized from the true Church which bid the Saints keep from Idols which all that be of the true Church are so to do And your Church which is run into Idols Pictures and Likenesses is run into error and is not infallible and so you are gone from the life which gave forth the Scriptures which Peter was in and so run into Idols and must have Images and likenesses to put you in mind of Christ and the Saints And you are gon from the Spirit the holy Ghost which they was in which over-saw the Churches who watched for the Souls and had the rule over the Saints so from this Church are you apostatized its peace which Church is the Pillar and ground of truth the Divel is out of the Pillar and ground of truth he abode not in it and all schismes heresies they cannot disturb the peace of this Church here comes no sword-men here nor carnal weapons nor inquisitions fire nor fagget stockes and prisons nor Idols all such are w●thout that deceives Nations and tells them they are a Church which slayes the S●ints P●ophets and Martyrs the same nature slew Christ and his A●ostles and Abel with their carnall weapons for all are one out of the life and power of God striking at creatures wrestling against flesh and bloud in stead of striking at the power that captivates the creatures to the intent that creatures might come to the liberty of the sons of God now you h●ving not continued in the Apos●l●s faith mind and spirit but Apostatized from them you have all lost the guide and rule as they were in both Protestants and your selves that be out of the life and faith that the Apostles was in that led them to give forth the Scriptures so you have been the wolves in the Sheeps clothing destroying one another about outward things and powers but with the power of God and life of God by them that are in the wisdom of God are you all judged to be out of the Kingdom of peace which is the Kingdom of Christ fighting with carnal weapons hailing to the Goals Inquisitions whips stocks houses of correction faggots fires either Protestants or Papists are you here like the Kingdom of Christ his subjects but like Pharisees Jewes and Cain apostatized from the Apostles lost the faith lost the unity lost the Spirit of God which the Saints was in which led them to give forth the Scriptures in which is the unity which is the bond of peace into which all that is called Christendome must come before they be one and all the names blotted out that is amongst them given to them in the apostacy since the dayes of the Apostles and all their prayers is abomination that be out of that unity and to you that is the word of the Lord and the Quaeries thou hast not answered and your prayers is denyed and your peace also for you have not abided in that which the Apostles and the Saints was in which did oversee the Churches but you are turned strikers which the Apostle saith they should not be so And the Apostle saw the comming in of the man of sin and Christ speaks of Anti-christ and the false Prophets coming in with their signs and lying wonders which if it were possible would deceive the very Elect which John saw was come and went forth from them and bid the Saints keep themselves from Idols for they were them that got up Idols which went forth from the Apostles which Apostles bid the Saints keep to the anointing in them and they need not that any man should teach them but as the same anointing teacheth them which is truth and no lye and even as it had taught them so

all the world hath wondred after the Beast And thou saith If any ask thee upon what ground thou believes that Christ and the Apostl●s taught all these things before mentioned Thy answer is upon the same ground thou believes they wrote the New Testament even the testimony of all Christians in all ages Here thou hast shewed thy faith that it is but reprobate is but by hearsay and is builded upon hear-say and tradition And for your testimony of Christians in all ages let us have your testimony from the Christians of Jerusalem from Antioch from Thessalonica Colossia and Corinth Philippia and the rest of the Churches and Christians which lived in the age of the Apostles And likewise let us have the testimony of the Churches of Asia which if thou dost bring to prove these fore-mentioned things then thou brings a testimony against Christ and the Apostles to make them transgressors to build those things which they have destroyed And thou saith by that which thou hast written we may see the firmnesse of the Roman faith By that which thou hast written I see the blindnesse and the ignorance and the rottennesse and the foundation of the Roman Church to be but rubbish and sandy for it stands upon inventions mens traditions and devised fables and lying stories and is not founded upon the Rock of ages and stands in the waters which are moveable and unstable upon which the whore sits which has made all Nations drunk which the great Kings thou speaks of which hath been converted have drunk of and so came to be Protectors of the Pope defenders of your Religion by carnall Swords by Fires Murthers and Inquisitions and killing them who keep the word of Gods patience and deny all your Idolatry and this has been acted amongst you since the Apostles dayes in the Apostacy But the Lord in his power hath appeared and hath dryed up some of the waters out of which the B●ast had his rise and hath broken some of his horns with which he hath pushed and all the Kings which have given their power to the Beast have made war against the Lamb and his followers But the time is coming when the Beast and the Whore and the false Prophets and Antichrists shall be taken and cast into the Lake and the Lamb and the Saints shall have the victory 6 Prin. Your Church thou sayest is proved to be the true Church by the great sanctity and power of godlinesse and mortification as hath appeared in the Roman Church in all ages and how they have lived in pure and perfect chastity and how they have left their pride and thou challenges to shew thee such among all those thou calls Hereticks Answ. More ungodliness hath not appeared neither hath been acted by any heathens in the world then hath been acted amongst you as blood shed murther killing burning destroying them that would not worship your Idol and you have made the name of Christ which you professe in words and christianity to stink among Heathens by your barbarous cruel●y and your unhumane usage of them in many places of the world and as for sanctity and holinesse you are altogether strangers unto Is there not tolleration for whoredome in the principal Cities of the Popes Dominions and cruelty the like is not to be found in the whole world Witnesse your devill●sh Inquisition and hellish devices to torture and kill and destroy them which will not submit and follow your foolish imaginations and deny the living God and for pride he which you call your holy Father hath exceeded many Kings hath been made to kisse his feet and in most of the Nations where the Roman faith is professed no such pride appears in any Nation except them And furthermore thou saith the mighty power of God hath appeared in converting whole Kingdomes into the Christian faith your conversion we know and your converts have been made manifest by their fruits that they are two-fold more the children of the Devil and have but only turned them from one sort of Images to set up another and that which you call conversion more hath been turned for fear of your swords faggots and fires being afraid of death then hath been by any of your doctrine which hath been taught And as for your fasting thou boasts of we know what it is denying one sort of meat and taking another and fasting one day and riotous another And as for your voluntary humility and poverty which stands in your own wills which is onely to deceive people that thereby your Cloysters and your Cels might be enriched that your Fryars and your Monks might live in pride and idlen●sse and thou saith by this doctrine which Austin the Monk taught that is to say to fast from lawful meats and to confess their odious and secret sins unto him have converted whole Nations by this Doctrine from the vanities and pleasures of the world as I said before they are but turned to outward shews and Images and the pleasures and vanities of the world are still standing in their hearts and shews themselves forth in their actions And as for thy Saints Boniface Wil●road and Saint Patrick their work is yet to be seen they which professe the same Doctrine in Ireland the fruits hath made Patricks Doctrine and their conversion manifest which was Rebellion Treachery Murther and Blood-shed and many thousand men women and children have been destroyed in that Nation within lesse then this twenty yeares which is manifested that Patrick and his Converts was Cains successors and not the successors of the Apostles of Christ And as for the lying Wonders and Miracles thou speaks of and of a Jesuite raising twenty dead bodies to life again It is like thou will prove this as well as thou proved that Christ taught to say Masse and to fast in Lent and keep holy days But all thy lyes are seen and your deceit found out and with the life of God you are all judged And though you have deceived the Nations long and kept people in ignorance and blindnesse and have maintained your deceit by Cains weapons and have upholden the kingdome of Antichrist by your bloody cruelty yet he is come and coming to be revealed in the Nations whose Dominion is everlasting who will subdue all his enemies under his feet take the wicked in their own craftiness and he himselfe alone rule whose right it is who will confound you with all your Idols for ever that his glory over all may be advanced F. H. THis is the word of the Lord God to you that fast and afflict your selves and observe days meats which the Kingdom of God stands not in You that fast you want the Bridegroom you want Christ and the bond of iniquity is amongst you and this fasting and afflicting of your selves for a day days is not the Fast that the Lord requires which breaks the bond of iniquity which fast being known that the Lord requires the foundation

Is this the love of Christ Is this the love of God Is this the love that was in the Apostles Did the Apostles do so did Christ do so that had all power c. to all that were not of their minde yea or nay answer 6 What differs your works from the works of the Pharisees for that which they did they did to be seen of men And the young man boasted of his works yet when it came that he should have sold all and followed Jesus the beloved of God there was the hard thing whereby he might have had treasure in heaven And how differs your giving almes from the Pharisees seeing the Pharisees were in your state to murther and murthered the just and you give almes and are found in the same nature that will and do murther them that be contrary minded to you wherein do you here differ from the Pharisees And Ch●ist saith love enemies and you have your Inquisitions and Fagots here his love differed from the Pharisees and yours And saith John Let us love in deed not in word not as Cain the wicked one who slew his brother because his works were righteous the others were evill And saith John He that killeth with the sword must perish with the sword here is the faith and patience of the Saints Now where is your patience that are killing and prisonin● And we wrestle not against flesh and blood saith the Apostle but against principalities and powers and spiritual wickednesses in high places How do you wrestle against principalities and powers and spiritual wickednesses in high places Does it not shew that your weapons are carnall and not spiritual while you are prisoning burning making inquisitions for the bodies of people that are contrary to your minde Do not you wrestle against flesh and blood Is not this to wrestle against flesh and blood to prison to burn to kill creatures are not you apostatized from the true Apostles and true Church which is the pillar and ground of truth who said We wrestle not against flesh and blood answer these things by Scripture 7 Do you own the Law and Prophets which is to do as you would be done by would you have all that be contrary to your minde do unto you as you do unto others to make Inquisition● and to burn and to kill them that be contrary to their minde as you have your Inquisitions Fagots Fires for such that be contrary to your minde not observing your customes would you have others do so unto you and serve you so that will not observe your customes Is not to do as you would be done by the Law and the Prophets 8 Did ever Christ or the Apostles give any command that any should be put to death touching worship touching Religion shew me a command in Scripture from Christs or the Apostles mouths Are not they that murther slay and make war the Beast and the false Prophets under the dominion of the mother of Harlots and in the steps of Cain and Jezebel out of the steps of Christ and the Apostles 9 What is will-worship Does any worship God in the spirit truth but who be in that which the Devil is out of Can any being in the spirit and in the truth which the Devil is out of the Murtherer slay any concerning Religion or worship but on the cōtrary if they be in the evil overcome it with good Now if you kill murther slay make Inquisitions burn where is patience where is long suffering where is stopping the mouths of gain-sayers concerning gain saying if you cannot you have a fagot for them or a prison or an Inquisition are you not here like unto them that rose against Stephen that were not able to resist his spirit but stoned him to death wherein differs your nature and spirits from these did Stephen do so to others the Apostles were stoned did they do so to others Now this is Christs command he sent them forth as sheep amongst Wolves he sent out Prophets and Wisemen and said some they should kill and some they should thrust out of their Synagogues some they should persecute from City to City and said they should be hated of all men for his names sake and they should speak all manner of evil of them and were these to do so again to others kill hate hale out of Synagogues persecute Nay did not Christ say love enemies blesse them that curse now are not they that are contrary to this out of this Anti-christs and false Apostles 10. Has not the true Ministery true Spirit true Power true Church the true crosse been lost since the dayes of the Apostles and the false Ministery false Prophets false Apostles Antichrists Synagogues of Satan has appeared since which all your Crosses your names your pictures your Images your praying by beads has come up have not you lost the true spirit the Image of the Father and his name by which men are saved and so since run into other names run into Images lost the true Image run into Crosses lost the true Cross the power of God run into praying by beads and lost the true praying in the spirit and is not the Candle put out within and so ye have set up your lights burning without you defiled the Temple of God within and so set up Temples without are they not set up by that which defiles the inward Temple and is not that it which will murther slay prison and bring before Inquisitions which defiles the Temple of God seeing they that witnessed the Temple of God said love enemies and does not it shew that the love of God was there if love enemies which was a command of Christ who are them that are to be persecuted and hated and who are they that you are to slay and kill answer 11 Have you heard the voyce of God immediately from heaven as the Prophets Apostles did have you the same spirit wch Christ and the Apostles had which gave forth the Scriptures which was before they were given forth yea or nay 12. Is that the blood of Christ that is your wine which was shed upon the Cross when Christ was crucified alter you have consecrated it 13. Is that the body of Christ that is your bread after you have consecrated that said Lo a body hast thou prepared me to do the will of God and will not your bread corrupt and let it lye after you have consecrated it and does the body the flesh of Christ see corruption answer 14. What is the ground and cause of all the destractions amongst the called Christians is it not because they have the words of Christ the Prophets and Apostles but be cut of the life of them 15. What is that thing wch four men do carry on staves that all men must bow before it when you carry it in the streets and what do you do it for and where did Christ or the Apostels do any such thing 16. Why do

and names 51. Where did the Apostles and Saints that were amongst them the true Church give any such Commands that there should be any dayes set apart for fish to be observed as you do answer me these things out of the Doctrines of Christ or the Apostles or Disciples of the Apostles and the true Church 52. Where was there any amongst the Apostles and Disciples which was the true Church amongst the true Christians that had the name of Pope before their decease or Fryeries or Abbies or Nunneries or Monkes or any such names amongst them answer me by the Scriptures out of the practice of the true Apostles and true Christians which the Apostles were amongst before their decease 53. Where did the Apostles and Disciples take a vow of any Christians or make them to give them a vow that they should never possesse any thing of their own or never marry but put them into houses where they should never come out again and is not that the Doctrine of Devils which was coming in before the Apostles decease forbidding the eating of meats and forbidding of marriage 1 Tim. 4. and from what ground and root has this had its rise 54. What were the false Prophets and Anti christ that Christ said should come in the 7. and 24. of Math. to his Disciples which the Disciples ●aw was come as in 1 Joh. 2. and 4. which went forth from them wch he saith in his revelations all that dwelt upon the earth went after and all Nations drunk the cup of the fornication and the Kings of the earth and all that dwelt upon the earth worshipped the Beast what Kings of the earth were th●y that drunk this cup of fornication and all Nations and what Nations were they that cup was this was not it them that ravined from the life which went forth from the Apostles which made war against the Saints and should overcome them for a season that kept the testimony of Jesus the spirit of Prophesy whose names were written in the Lambs book of life slain from the foundation of the world 55. Where did the Apostles and the Church that they were amongst before their decease set up Crosses and did they fill their windowes full of pictures and Images of males and females answer me this by Scripture out of the Apostles practice Now if you say that Joshua bowed before the Arke and Solomon made Images Joshua bowed to the Lord before the Arke and Christ is come the substance of all tipes and figures and shadowes and to him must every knee bow who is a greater then Solomon that built the Temple and Stephen that was stoned to death for witnesing the substance and denying the figure 56. And where did the Apostles and Disciples or the Ministers of Christ Jesus which was amongst the Apostles before their decease consecrate bread and wine or Christ give them any such Comm●nd to consecrate it tell me out of the Commands of Christ or the Commands of the Apostles before their decease that they practised any such thing amongst the Saints And what Scripture have you or Command from Christ or the Apostles or the Church that was amongst them that speaks of seven Sacraments or any such names that they had amongst them or give forth any such thing to be practised after them let the practice of Christ and his Apostles and the Saints then speak for it or declare it or else you must acknowledge your selves to be besides them and acknowledge it to be but an invention and your own words 57. If your Church be the Pillar and ground of Truth the gates of Hell cannot pervail against it but if the gates of Hell have prevailed and you swallowed up in darkness and in inventions and are fain to hold up your selves with Prisons and Inq●isitions and Goales and outward Carnal weapons does not this shew that your weapons are carnal and not spiritual and that you are out of the power of Truth which the Apostles were in I am none of those that you cal your sects separated from you and drove you out of your houses and taken them and call them the Church nor any of them that holds up Tythes or Temple outward which has your Crosses on the end of them nor any of them that holds up Priests which have been made by Schooles and Colledges and has their Temples and Pulpits imitating Ezra or Solomon not Christ who came to put an end to them nor any of them that are taught to call the dayes by the Saints names nor any of them that are taught to call the Colledges by Jesus by Christ by Immanuel by Trinity none of them that ever was learned to call them by these names nor any of them taught by the Heathen to call moneths by the names of January February March April May c. and to name dayes and to call them by such a Saint or such a God or Sun or Moon or Starres But am a witnesse against all the Priests made by Schooles and Colledges by mans will and Tythes and Temples set up since the dayes of the Apostles in the Apostacy and a witnesse against all the Jews Temples Tythes Pulpits Priests and offerings one of them that are the Elect that witness the everlasting Priest-hood and everlasting covenant 58. Are not all these Pulpits Temples Tythes Priests Schooles Colledges made by the will of man and set up by the will of man in the apostacy since the dayes of the Apostles and are not you all in the Apostacy from Christ and the Apostles who said when they curse blesse ye and the Apostle sayes my brethren bless and curse not Now you that do curse by your Bell by your Book and by your Candle are not you apostatized from the Apostles Doctrine here who saith bless and curse not and ye curse Did not the Apostle Peter see the Cursers cursed speakers come up before his decease 59. Did the Apostles give the names as Whitsontyde or Easter or Christmas the names of holy dayes are not all these set up since the Apostles seeing the Apostle said he was afraid of them that observed dayes Did not the Jews dote upon the shadow more then the substance dote upon the day more then they did upon Christ But shew what your observing of Whitsontyde Easter or other holy dayes does signify forth and who was the first author of your Church or where the Apostles or the Church before their decease practised or commanded any such thing if not grant your selves Apostates 60. Where did the Apostles or Ministers of Christ or the beleivers before their decease build great Abbies Monasteries and set crosses on the ends of them Nunneries Cloysters build walkes in the ground shew it by Scripture by that prove your practice else acknowledge your selves to have set up these things who be in the apostacy 61 Where had the Apostles or the Saints Bells jangling to call them together like a company of Heathen or