tolerably well give answer thereto from what I have already heard from you Nor do I find here much that is new but many of the same things in other words drest up with much art and cunning T. I am glad you are so good a proficient and since you tell me this let us if you will for a while at least take a new method in our following discourse Give me your Book and for the trial of your skill I 'le propose thence the arguments which your Author makes use of and you shall return answers to the same L. I shall do my best but must crave your assistance when I am at a loss T. That you may be sure I shall readily give and if we meet with many the same things which we have had already we shall the quicklier dispatch them Only something I have to premise before I come to his arguments In the beginning of this his last Chapter he brings in his Scholar desiring to be furnish'd with some pregnant arguments for the reducing of Sectaries to the Catholick Church which he says they have groundlesly forsaken and cruelly persecuted Now what ground we whom he unjustly calls Sectaries had to forsake the Romish Church not the Catholick we have already shewn and shall do more but whilst he would insinuate that we Protestants have been grievous persecutors of Papists this I am sure is a very groundless charge and I wonder he had the impudence to fasten it upon us especially considering how infamous their own Church hath long been for the most cruel bloody persecution of poor Protestants meerly upon account of Religion and that in this Kingdom to go no further Whereas it 's very rare that any Papist hath suffered the loss of his life amongst us purely upon that account nor should I desire ever to see such severity used toward them or any other Sect if they will but live peaceably and not disturb the Government But most certain and undeniable it is that many of them have suffered for downright Treason and Rebellion as in the Gunpowder-Plot and at several other times And indeed our Laws make it Treason for any of the Kings subjects to go to the Church of Rome for Orders and then come over to draw away the people into communion with that Church this being look'd on as a seducing of them from their Allegiance to his Majesty which no wise Prince will suffer And with good reason is it so look'd on since few of these Priests will take the Oath of Allegiance and do reckon themselves exempt from the Civil power and both they and their deluded proselytes are taught to prefer the power of a foreign Potentate viz. the Bishop of Rome before that of their own Prince Some of them indeed say not all that this his power is only in Spirituals but whilst the Pope is judge in his own cause what either is spiritual or has a tendency to it may he not under this pretence extend his power as far as he pleases as you heard before But though in this and other instances the principles of Papists are extremely dangerous to the Civil Government yet I wonder whether Protestants may be permitted to live as quietly in Italy or Spain as thousands of Papists do here in England Nay at this day even in France it self what disturbances and persecutions do poor Protestants meet with and that chiefly as is said through the malicious instigations of fierce and furious Clergy men whilst yet we hear not that they can in the least charge them with any seditious or unpeaceable behaviour What impudence then is it for Papists to cast such dishonourable reflections upon our Government whether of Church or State as if we were guilty of I know not what rigorous proceedings against them Whereas it will be hard to find any where in Christendom more mildness than in the Church of England nor any where more cruelty and severity than in that of Rome whose bloody Inquisition has been long talked of throughout the world But to follow your Author yet before he brings forth his Arguments he tells us that Christ sends us to the Church quoting Matt. 18. 17. That if we neglect to hear the Church we must be counted for no better than Heathens and Publicans What this makes to his purpose I do not well understand For this seems plainly to be meant of that particular Church whereof we are Members in peaceable communion wherewith we ought to live rendring chearful obedience to all its lawful injunctions But what 's this to the Church of Rome which neither has any Authority over us in England and whose impositions are notoriously sinful He next quotes that of St. Paul 1 Tim. 3. 15. That the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Which is true both of the Catholick Church and of every particular Church that is a sound Member of it For hereby is declared that the truth of the Gospel that is the Christian Religion is carefully preserved openly profest and taught in the Christian Church The expression here made use of is commonly thought to allude to the fixing up of Writings upon a Pillar in some publick place that they may be seen and read of all like that in Iosh. 8. 32. But still I am to seek what this makes for his advantage If he only intend by these Quotations to prove that a Man ought to live in communion with the true Church of Christ and to behave himself peaceably and obediently in that particular Church of which he is a Member Who denies it Or what will he gain by it Since this tends nothing to prove it our duty to become Members of the Romish Church to believe all her Doctrines and obey her commands Well but this is that he will now demonstrate we are all bound to and that by five Arguments all of them as he fancies most strong and unanswerable which we shall particularly survey and examine the strength of them His first is That Church is to be heard in which there is most assurance that one is in the way to Salvation but in the Roman Church there is most assurance of this and therefore she is to be heard and obey'd What say you to this L. I deny that there is most assurance of our being in the way to Salvation in the Roman Church T. And well you may but thus he goes on to prove it Protestants grant that one living and dying in the Roman Church may be saved else they condemn all their Ancestors to the pit of Hell and therefore those of that Church have most assurance of their Salvation since it 's granted by all that they are in the way to it and thus he says it has been held by all the World time out of mind And to give full strength to his Argument we must add what he has in other places that Papists deny that a Protestant can be saved whilst Protestants grant that a Papist may and
their case seems most pitiable who through the disadvantage of their education want due means of instruction and what allowances our gracious God will make on that and the like accounts is fittest for us to leave to his own infinite wisdom Only let us be careful to regulate our own practices by the plain rule of Gods holy Word which through his favour we so plentifully enjoy L. What you say shall teach me more charity to those of them that are sincere than they will allow to us But I do still more and more perceive how little reason there is for my entring into communion with that Church in which there is so great hazard of Salvation even no more than for my venturing into a Pest-house full of infected persons because it 's possible some of them may have so much strength of nature as to overcome that dangerous distemper T. The case is much the same CHAP. V. Of some particular points in difference betwixt us and the Church of Rome and first of the Popes Supremacy L. HAving now received so full satisfaction in this first great point concerning the true Catholick Church what it is and who are the members of it and being upon good grounds firmly perswaded that the Church of England is a very sound part of this Catholick Church in whose communion therefore by Gods grace I hope to live and die I would in the next place gladly hear you discourse of some of those particular points wherein chiefly the difference lyes betwixt us and the Church of Rome For they alledg many plansible reasons and sometimes quote Scripture for those opinions of theirs which we reject as Popery and therefore I would gladly be furnisht with solid and good answers to these their Allegations T. Most readily shall I afford you my assistance herein Only let me premise that suppose in this or that particular opinion you should fancy their Church had the truth on her side yea though it really was so yet is this no sufficient reason why you should go over to their communion since from what has been said you may discern that their Church has no manner of jurisdiction over ours which we shall presently make more plain and you cannot lawfully desert your own Church meerly because you apprehend there is some error commonly received in it whilst you have liberty to hold communion with it without owning and professing that error And though for my own part I declare I do not know so much as any one material point of difference wherein the Church of Rome has the truth on her side yet this I speak with respect to those who in some particular cases may be of another mind and afterward may have occasion to make use of it accordingly But now proceed to those several points wherein you desire satisfaction L. I will so and shall herein follow the method in which I find them laid down in this little Book to which I have hitherto had recourse And the first thing here mention'd is concerning one Pope in the Church viz. the Bishop of Rome who is they say to be own'd as the visible Head and Governour of the whole Church under Christ. T. This is indeed the most fundamental point of the Romish faith by which chiefly they stand distinguisht from all other Churches and as such I have often upon occasion mention'd it already and have told you that there is not a word of it in the Apostles Creed which is the summ of the Christian Faith nor yet in the Holy Scriptures whence that Creed was taken which may be sufficient prejudice against it but pray what do they alledg in proof of it L. Both this my Author and others commonly plead that as there is one Emperour in an Empire one King in a Kingdom one Master in a family so there should be one Pope in the Church T. I think they should rather infer the quite contrary that as there is a Master in every Family a King in every Kingdom c. so in every Diocess there should be a Bishop and in every Nation a Primate or chief Bishop or else a Synod of Bishops from whom there should lye no appeal to any foreign Bishop whatsoever It would indeed have look'd a little more like an argument for their purpose if they could have said that as there is one Emperor over all the Kings and Kingdoms of the world so there ought to be one Pope over all Bishops and Churches But as it appears impossible for one man to govern the whole world so neither is it much easier for one Bishop to govern all the Christians in the world especially if all Nations should embrace Christianity as every good man desires they should But to let pass their little similies and idle fancies do you think if it had been a matter of such necessity to salvation as Papists say it is to own the Pope as Christs Vicar and visible Head of the Catholick Church do you think I say that our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles would not have told us of it and have given strict command to all Christians to obey him and to seek to his Infallible judgment in all doubts and controversies and submit to his authority for the composing of all differences whereas we now find not one syllable to this purpose either in the Gospel or Epistles but Christians are exhorted to obey their own Rulers both Sacred and Civil and to take the Doctrine delivered by our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles as the Infallible Rule of their faith and manners and no other Head of the Church do we read of but our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to whom all power is given in Heaven and Earth as he himself tells us Matt. 28. 18. But he no where tells us that he hath transfer'd all this power to any mortal man nor setled any person as his Vicar and Deputy-Governour of all the Christian world L. Yes they say Christ gave this priviledg to Saint Peter stiling him the Rock on which he would build his Church and giving him the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Matt. 16 18 19. and from Saint Peter they would have this power to be derived to his Successors the Bishops of Rome T. This is the Text which they commonly bring for their purpose but with how little reason may appear at the very first sight whilst neither is here confer'd upon St. Peter any such power as to be Ruler over all the Christian Church nor the least mention made of any priviledge whatever to be convey'd from him to his Successors at Rome or any other where As to the Rock here spoken of many of the Ancients understand by it the Doctrine which St. Peter had now profest that great fundamental article of the Christian Faith that Iesus was the Christ the Son of the living God But let us suppose it to be meant of his person as he was to be a Preacher of this Doctrine yet
of some dangerous Disease and seeking to an able Physician for advice which when he has received and is about to follow it in comes a bold Mountebank and tells the Man it 's utterly impossible he should ever recover by hearkning to his Physician but if he will be guided by him all shall be well for he has an infallible Cure at hand that will certainly do the work Now suppose the Physician be so modest that he will not answer this impudent Quack in his own language nor say it 's impossible for his Medicines to do any good only he deals honestly with his patient and tells him of the danger of trusting himself in such a Mans hands who takes very desperate courses and where he cures one kills Twenty but for himself he shall prescribe nothing but what he can demonstrate to be safe and good and which through God's blessing hath often been very effectual Now in point of prudence what ought the patient to do in this case What must he reject a skilful and safe Physician because he speaks with modesty and caution and chuse the daring ignorant Mountebank because he talks big and boldly and boasts of Infallible Receipts of a certain and speedy Cure L. No surely by no means T. Yet so he should do by this Authors Argument for the choice of their Church because forsooth she condemns all others and commends her self talking as much of Infallibility as the most cheating Mountebank is used to do and with much what the same reason and truth The Case is so like that I need not trouble you with applying it L. No you need not For I understand it well enough and as well do I discern the weakness of his Argument T. And yet for your fuller satisfaction if need be I would have you read that Sermon I formerly told you of on 1 Cor. 3. 13. by a Reverend Divine of the Church of England where you will find this piece of sophistry so shamefully bafled and exposed that he must be a very silly and shameless Priest that will ever offer to make use of it more Wherefore to all that hath been said on this subject I shall only suggest one thing more to your consideration viz. that so far as this Argument hath any force in it it may with great advantage be retorted on Papists themselves For if that way be safest to be chosen in which both parties are agreed then are we Protestants clearly on the safer side For they themselves own the Scriptures which we embrace they approve of the Creeds which we hold they cannot but allow of the Worship of God in the name of Jesus Christ with all other the substantials of our Religion which as I have often said is nothing else but Christianity it self But now we do utterly disown the additions which the Romish Church has made to the Ancient Creeds many of their traditions we also reject as being plainly repugnant to the Holy Scriptures we condemn their worship of Images of Angels and Saints as being neither commanded by God nor practised by the Church of Christ in the Primitive times Hence then you may be informed what is safest to chuse and follow whether the plain and pure Religion of Jesus Christ profest in our Church and acknowledged by all Christians in the World even by the Papists themselves or to swallow down all those new Articles which their Church has added to the Christian Faith and defile our selves with those superstitions with which they have corrupted the Worship of God Many of which Doctrines and Practices are disapproved by all Christians but those of their own Sect and which upon good grounds we believe to be so utterly unlawful and pernicious that they make the condition of those in the Romish Church very hazardous and for our selves should we embrace them we could have no hopes of Salvation Judge then upon the whole what is safest to be chosen L. I confess I see little or no difficulty in the Case wherefore pray proceed to the second Argument T. I shall repeat to you what he calls so though for my part I find nothing in it that may deserve the name of an Argument Thus it runs That Church is not to be heard whose Authors and chief Doctors are meer Cozeners and Impostors and such he says are all but those of the Roman Church and therefore are not to be heard L. I deny that the Authors and Doctors of our Church are Cozeners and Impostors T. Thus he goes about to prove it They all say that they will reform the Roman Church with the pure Word of God and yet they have never done it nor will ever be able and therefore they are all meer Cozeners and Impostors This is all the proof he gives L. This all seems to me just nothing for I reckon that the Author of our Religion was no other than our Blessed Saviour and the first Teachers of it were the holy Apostles and Evangelists who taught it by their Preaching and then committed it to Writing in the Holy Word of God which we most readily embrace and in which our Religion is wholly contained And surely these were no Cozeners or Impostors but rather they who have corrupted Religion by their own novel inventions contrary to this Holy Word T. This is very true that you say but here by the Authors of our Church he means those Learned men who were instrumental for the reforming it from those inventions which he pleads for as a part of Religion L. This I believe to be his meaning But since these good men by Gods assistance did actually reform our Church by the pure Word of God from those Popish corruptions wherewith it was before polluted I admire why he should say they were Cozeners and Impostors for not doing what they pretended they would when as they have really done it T. And admire you still may For I cannot guess at his reason except by the Roman Church he means that particular Church which is at Rome or else the whole Sect of Papists all who own the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome and so stile themselves the Romish Church Take it in either of these senses and I confess this Romish Church is not yet reformed But this rather shews their obstinacy than any thing of deceitfulness in those who have attempted their Reformation If the Prophets and pious people of old would have healed Babylon and she would not be healed was this any dishonour to the Prophets Neither surely were any of the first Reformers so vain as to say that they would certainly reform the whole Church of Rome though they might heartily desire it and in their several places diligently endeavour it And thanks be to God through his assistance and blessing these their endeavours have been most happily successful in many Nations of the World and particularly in this our Kingdom of England for the delivering of our Church from the Usurpation of the Pope and
from the corruptions of Popery the Blessed Fruits whereof we do at this day enjoy and hope we shall still continue so to do through the same Divine Grace and favour which first bestowed this mercy upon us though most unworthy of the same But leave we this shadow of an Argument and pass to his third L. Pray do so T. It is this That Church is only to be heard which â—â—s all the marks of a true Church but the Roman Câ—urch has them and no other therefore she only is to be â—â—ard These marks as he goes on are Antiquity Miracles Holiness of Life and Doctrine Universality Uâ—â—ty Succession of Bishops from the Apostles these he calls Infallible Marks of the true Church which belong to none but that of Rome L. These marks of the Church or most of them I do well remember you spoke largely to in the beginning of our â—â—st conference and from what you have there said I 〈◊〉 furnished with a sufficient Answer to this Argument viz. that the Church of Rome as it is now corrupted with â—hose Doctrines wherein Popery consists such as the Popes Supremacy and Infallibility Purgatory Transubstantiation c. it cannot truly plead these marks he lays down For these Popish Doctrines are not of the same Antiquity with pure Christianity there never were any true Miracles wrought to confirm them they are not Holy in themselves nor do tend to promote Holiness of Life but rather the contrary they are not nor ever were Universally received by all Christian Churches nor is there much Unity amongst themselves in their explication of them though if there were this signifies nothing as being but the Unity of a Sect within it self and though their Bishops may live in the same City that the Apostles once did yet they did not receive these Doctrines from the Apostles but have introduced them since some at one time some at another and therefore in respect of Doctrine they are not the Apostles Successors nor are to be hearkned to as such T. What you alledge is most undeniably true And let me further add that suppose the Church of Rome were now as pure in its Doctrine and Worship as in the very days of the Apostles it was so that these marks did really belong to it yet this is no good Argument that we must all therefore be of the Church of Rome if ever we hope to be saved since many other Churches might plead the same even all that received the Christian Religion in the same purity and simplicity whose Members therefore might have as good grounds to hope for Salvation But when we further consider how that Church has degenerated from its Primitive purity beside that it has no dominion over us there is still much less reason that we should for the embracing of her Communion desert our own Church of England which is a most sound part of the Catholick Church as any this day in Christendom To her agree all the marks of a true Church as I have formerly shewn She hath these mention'd by this Author Antiquity c. For the Doctrines of our Church are as old as the times of our Saviour and his Apostles This is that true Christian Doctrine which was confirmed by all those Miracles which are recorded in the New-Testament These Doctrines are all Holy as well as True and have a natural tendency to make men Holy and Good These are Universally received by all Christian Churches that now are or ever were in the World being the very same you find summ'd up in the Apostles Creed Thus are we at Unity with the truly Catholick Church and thus whilst our Ministers Preach the very same Doctrines use the same Worship and Sacraments which the Apostles did they are in that respect truly their Successors Yea beside this those Bishops of our Church whom God made use of for the Reformation of it did receive their Orders from those who were of the Church of Rome so that if their Ordination be valid so is ours if they have a succession from the Apostles so have we To say nothing of what is commonly related in History that some of the Apostles or Apostolical men sent by them first planted Christianity in these parts from which time it was never utterly rooted out But I think I need add nothing more on this Head having already said so much in another place L. No Sir but rather proceed to the fourth Argument T. It is this That Church is to be heard which takes the narrow way that leads to Life Matt. 7. but the Roman Church takes it and therefore she is to be heard And this he proves because she takes as he says not only the way of Gods commands but also the narrow way of Christs Counsels What say you to this L. Even the same in effect that you lately said upon the former Argument viz. that supposing it to be true that the Church of Rome does take this narrow way yet it is not she alone that takes it and therefore there is no necessity that I should renounce all other Churches for Communion with her I am sure there is no reason why I should on this account forsake our own Church wherein the precepts of Christ are most plainly taught and strictly urged upon the people and in the very same way to Heaven are we dayly exhorted to walk in which our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles have led us by their Example as well as Doctrine even the way of Piety Righteousness and serious Holiness T. Your Answer is solid and true L. But I have yet somewhat more to say against his Argument and do directly deny that their Church takes the same way to Salvation in all things which our Saviour hath proposed in his Gospel For whatever he talks of their following not only his Commands but his Counsels yet sure I am that their Church requires many things to be believed and done in order to Salvation which our Blessed Saviour never commanded counsel'd or taught and therefore in these things they do not take the way of the Gospel but one of their own devising For in the Gospel we no where find that a Man cannot be saved except he acknowledge the Popes Supremacy believe Transubstantiation worship Images c. These things I think are directly contrary to the Doctrines and Precepts of the Gospel and yet these with many more of like nature are required in the Roman Church with all strictness imaginable in doing of which she takes not the way of the Gospel nor therefore in this ought she to be heard T. Most certainly she ought not But you have all the reason in the World to remain fixed in Communion with your own Church which requires nothing to be believed or practised as of necessity to Salvation but what is revealed in the Holy Scriptures Herein following the direction which our Saviour gave to his Apostles and in them to their Successors Matt. 28. ult that they should
presses all men to endeavour after perfection in every grace and vertue and especially to be much in works of mercy and charity but yet she does not fright people with stories of Purgatory to bring in their wealth to the Church nor teach them that there is any great perfection in leaving their honest callings to run into a Monastery bringing their riches along with them thither She requires constant temperance and sobriety and sometimes imposes fasting and abstinence but then whether men eat a little flesh or fish oyl or butter she thinks it not a matter of the least moment but leaves all men to their own choice and prudence In a word she does not with the Pharisee teach for doctrines the commands of men but diligently inculcates the express commandments of Almighty God delivered to us in his holy Word And tho' she would not have us so foolish and proud as to think of meriting Heaven by our own good works yet she teaches that upon our patient continuance in well doing we shall through the mercies of God and the merits of Christ certainly obtain eternal life but upon no others terms does she encourage any man to hope for it And thus you see how our Church teaches us to take that same safe and narrow but sweet and pleasant way to salvation which is proposed to us in the Gospel L. I am fully perswaded she does so God grant me grace ever to walk in this holy way and then I shall not doubt of an happy end Pray proceed to his last argument T. I shall so and this it is That Church is not to be heard which has no solid reason for her keeping the Sabbath-day on the day she does keep it but no Church or Congregation of Sectaries has this and therefore none of them ought to be heard What say you to this L. I say that we of the Church of England whom he unjustly calls Sectaries have good reason for our keeping the Sabbath on that day we do keep it even as good reason as the Church of Rome it self has T. He goes on to prove the contrary thus No Church of Sectaries has Scripture for keeping the Sabbath-day on Sunday and no longer on Saturday as God commanded it and yet they reject tradition upon which ground the Roman Church keeps the Sunday in lieu of Saturday and therefore they have no solid reason for what they do c. L. I answer we have Scripture for keeping one day in seven viz. the fourth Commandment And we read that after our Saviours Resurrection the Apostles and Disciples commonly assembled together on the first day of the week which is called the Lords-day Revel 1. 10. And then we have tradition to assure us that this day was observed by the Christian Church ever since which tradition we may plead for our practice I trow as well as the Church of Rome T. Yes certainly we may for though we reject a great many ill things which they would thrust upon us for old traditions many of them being meer novelties of their own devising yet we do by no means reject such traditions as have sufficient evidence of their having been generally received by all Christian Churches from the very times of the Apostles down to our days and of this nature do learned men generally affirm the observation of the Lords-day to be And what you alledg from Scripture may very well serve to recommend to us so ancient and general a practice To all this besides the great equity and reasonableness of the thing in it self you may add the authority of those whom God hath set over us in Church and State all which being put together leaving the nice disputes that have been about this matter is a sufficient ground for our observation of the first day of the week as a Christian Sabbath a day of rest from our common employments devoted to the more solemn worship and service of God both in publick and private As solid reason therefore do we give for our practice herein as the Church of Rome it self can do or any other Church in the world And thus we have done with his five mighty arguments in which upon a little examination there appears nothing of strength or solidity He next musters up some weighty objections as he reckons them against those whom he calls Sectaries which he says ought to make them very much doubt whether they be secure in the way they are in And here according to his usual vain way of bragging he makes this large offer which yet he will never make good that all Priests Jesuits and Catholicks over all the world will turn to their way if they can but get from their Ministers a clear and satisfactory resolution of the following doubts L. It was cunningly done of him to call for a satisfactory resolution since though it be as clear as the light at noon-day yet they may still pretend that it is not satisfactory T. They may so though I question not but it will appear such to all that are impartial and judicious These doubts I shall propose to you in order and hear what you your self can say for the resolving of them L. I shall give in the best answers I am able and where I am at a loss shall still desire your help CHAP. II. A resolution of some doubts and questions proposed to Protestants T. FIrst he demands whether it can be clearly shewn that our Ministers were sent by Almighty God to preach and to reform the Roman Catholick Church or whether they are not some of the false Prophets who say The Lord saith when the Lord hath not sent them Ezek. 13. 6. L. There seems no great difficulty in resolving this doubt since our Ministers had lawful Ordination and thereby had authority to preach the Word of God And by the light of this word they discovered many errors and abuses in the Roman Church wherewith we were foully polluted and by Gods blessing and the assistance of lawful authority they were very instrumental in reforming us from the same Now whilst they proved their Doctrine by this Word of God they are not to be compared to those false Prophets who taught the people lyes and vanity as we have it Ezek. 13. 7 8. T. Your answer is sufficient and very clear For since our first Reformers did not publish a new Religion but rather restored the old by removing those corrupt additions that had been made to it they did not need any extraordinary commission from Heaven such as Moses had from God when he delivered the Law and as the Apostles had from Jesus Christ when they were first sent to preach the Gospel But it was sufficient that they were duly qualified by Gods Spirit for the work of the Ministry and were lawfully called to it by those who had authority in the Church to ordain them to that Office Such as these are truly said to be sent of God and are therefore
bound in the execution of this their Office to do what belongs to it for the rectifying of mens errors and reforming them from all evil and corrupt practices whether in the worship of God or in their common conversation And thus did those holy and learned men both Bishops and others behave themselves who were the blessed instruments of reforming the Church of England from Popery For the carrying on of which good work God inclined the hearts of our Kings to employ their power for the assistance and encouragement of the Clergy who were engaged in it And herein they did no other than what Hezekiah Iosiah and other pious Kings amongst the Iews did in reforming the Iewish Church And as they needed no new commission from Heaven then for the reformation they wrought having the Law of God to be their rule and warrant no more did our Kings and Bishops whilst they had the Gospel to be theirs according to which they proceeded by degrees Thus in the first place King Henry the Eighth abolished the Popes Supremacy that great fundamental falshood of Popery whilst he retain'd in a manner all other points of it But with great courage and justice he delivered his Kingdom from that yoke of bondage under which the Nation had long groaned even from the Usurpation of the Roman Bishop declaring that he had no manner of power or jurisdiction in his Majesties Dominions but that the King himself next under God and his Christ is Head of this Church that is the Supreme Moderator and Governour over all persons and in all causes as well Ecclesiastical as Civil in these his Realms Wherefore the King with the advice and assistance of his Bishops and Clergy may as lawfully take care for the Reformation of the Church according to the Word of God within his own Dominions as the Kings of Israel or Iudah might do in theirs Yea he is obliged to do it and no foreign power Prince or Prelate hath any the least right to hinder and controul him herein not the Bishop of Rome any more than he of Ierusalem or Antioch And thus far the generality of the Popish Clergy both the Bishops and the Universities concurr'd with the King even such men as Bonner and Gardiner The Popes power being thus broken and abolished this made way for a more thorough Reformation of the Doctrin and worship from many soul errors and superstitions in the days of Edward the Sixth This was for a while interrupted in the reign of Queen Mary but was afterward restored and perfected by the authority of Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory soon after her entrance upon the Government And thus was the Reformation of our Church according to the rule of Gods holy Word most happily begun carried on and compleated in a peaceable orderly and deliberate manner by just and lawful authority even that of the whole Kingdom whether Ecclesiastical or Civil Of which you have an account at large in a late accurate and full History of our Reformation by a Learned hand an Abridgement whereof is done by the same Author in a little room if the History it self be too large for you Our first Reformers then were no Impostors or false Prophets but were indeed sent of God though in an ordinary way being rightly Ordained to the Ministry and duly qualified for that Sacred Office they were guided and directed by the plain Word of God own'd and succeeded by his Providence allow'd and encouraged by his Vicegerents our Kings and Queens and the Reformation at length peaceably and firmly established by the Laws of the Land L. This doubt I think is clearly enough resolved and to me very satisfactorily Pray what 's the next T. He asks whether it can be made good what Luther and Calvin with all Protestants and Presbyterians have so long boasted they could do viz. Reform convincingly any one of the silliest Roman Catholicks that is and to begin let them do it in the matter of the Real Presence L. I do not well understand what he means by this For I think there is no question to be made of it but Luther and Calvin though they were not the Reformers of our Church with other learned Protestants have convincingly reformed many that were Roman Catholicks and in the matter of the Real Presence as well as other points these Converts have been convinced of their error and brought to a sounder judgment agreeable to Scripture and reason T. I think indeed there is more difficulty in finding out the meaning of this question than in answering it though somewhat like it he had before He cannot surely mean that no people who once profest themselves Roman Catholicks as his phrase is have ever been convinced of the errors of the Roman Church so as to forsake the same for thus it hath been with some whole Nations and particularly our own For we grant that in these latter ages our people were generally infected with those errors though from the beginning it was not so And as to Luther and Calvin though they did great service for the Reforming of the Church in their own Countries yet neither they nor any Presbyterians were the chief instruments of that work among us but holy Bishops and many sound and orthodox Preachers ordain'd by them who taught the truth as it is in Jesus and sealed with their blood the truth of what they taught These men by their zealous Preaching their holy living and chearful dying after the example of the Apostles and other Martyrs in the Primitive times did by Gods blessing win over thousands to embrace the Doctrine of the Gospel in its native purity rejecting those Popish errors in which before they had been blindly train'd up Wherefore he might as well say that the Apostles never converted any from Heathenism to Christianity as that our Ministers have never reformed any from Popery What then can he mean I can scarce guess what except that they cannot reform a Papist whilst he still remains one which is as if we should say that the Apostles never converted any heathens because whilst they remain'd heathens they were not converted But I am not willing to think him so weak and silly and therefore till he speaks plainer shall trouble my self no more with this but proceed to his next question which runs thus Can you prove to me clearly out of the written word which you teach ought only to be follow'd as the guide to Heaven that the Sabbath-day is commanded by God to be kept on Sunday and that little children are to be baptized L. Part of this was mention'd before viz. that about keeping the Sabbath for which you shew'd there is enough from Scripture to warrant our practice besides the constant custom of the whole Christian Church ever since the Primitive times and I suppose the same may be said for the Baptism of Infants T. I judge it may and that upon very good grounds For we know that Children were admitted members of
the Iewish Church by the solemn rite of Circumcision and since our Saviour hath no where given the least intimation that this priviledg should be taken from them I can see no reason why the children of Christian Parents may not be solemnly consecrated to God by Baptism and so admitted members of the Christian Church And to omit many other Texts which speak in favour of infants this without any wresting of the words may be fairly drawn from that commission given to the Apostles and their Successors Mat. 28. 19. Go ye therefore and teach or disciple all Nations baptizing them in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost They were to make Disciples of whole Nations which surely comprehends both Parents and Children First the Parents were to be instructed in the Christian Faith and upon their profession of it to be baptized And then they themselves being devoted to God and entred into Covenant with him since Parents have power over their children to dispose of them for their good and to lay engagements on them for that end surely it was lawful for them to devote their children also to God and to enter them into Covenant with him by Baptism thereby laying a strict obligation upon them when they come to years of discretion to perform their part of this holy Covenant if ever they hope for any benefit by it the Parents also being bound to acquaint their children with their duty so soon as they are capable of learning it Thus when any one from among the heathens became a proselyte to the Iews when he himself was circumcised so were his children also Yea learned men tell us that it was also the custom to wash these proselytes in pure water and that very probably our Saviour was pleased to accommodate himself to this same usage of theirs in his instituting of Baptism for the more solemn admission of members into his Church Now as an excellent Writer argues suppose that our Blessed Saviour instead of the word Baptizing should have used that of circumcising and have said Go teach all Nations circumcising them in the name c. would not all men have been apt to think that the same priviledg which the Iews had of admitting their children into Covenant by Circumcision that Christian Parents also should have the like why then may not the same be reasonably argued from the words though Baptism be here named and not Circumcision Very probable it is that the Apostles thus understood it and that they practised accordingly when we read of their Baptizing such and such persons and their housholds as Act. 16. 15 33. amongst whom there might be some children for any thing that can be shewn to the contrary And certain we are that very early in the Christian Church insants were admitted to Baptism and thence hath it continued to this day to be the general custom of all Churches throughout the world And pray take good notice that though our Church allows nothing to be imposed upon our belief or practice as necessary to salvation but what is contain'd in Gods holy Word yet she hath great regard to antiquity to the customs of the truly Catholick Church and the current Doctrine of the Fathers and requires Ministers to have due respect thereto in their Exposition of Scripture And therefore without any contradiction to her self may very well admit the observation of such customs that having so much ground from Scripture are recommended also by the early and general practice of the Christian Church This I say she may very well do but is by no means thereby obliged to receive all the traditions and customs of the Roman Church for many of which nothing can be truly pleaded either from Scripture or antiquity but very much against them from both L. This is very plain and satisfactory Pray let us have his next question T. It is this Can you make it appear to me how your Sectaries can with reason and sufficient ground condemn all the Catholicks that were so many ages before Luther and Calvin for being no better than heathens and convince me that by adhering to you I shall be more secure of my salvation than if I joyn my self to them that have been held time out of mind in most parts of the world for the men that have the true and only saving Religion What answer give you to this L. First I know no body that does thus condemn all Catholicks before Luther and Calvin For as to those Christians in the first ages of the Church who truly deserve the name of Catholicks whether of the Roman Church or any other we are so far from condemning that we admire and applaud them we approve of their Doctrine contain'd in the ancient Creeds and do imbrace and profess it we honour their memory and endeavour to imitate their example But as those of the Roman Church in latter ages whom he means I suppose by his Catholicks though we do not say they are as bad as heathens yet we do truly say that they have very much corrupted Christian Religion by false Doctrines and Superstitious usages and therefore we think it a much safer way to salvation to adhere to the ancient certain truths of Christianity every where received and to worship God in that pure and holy manner which our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles both taught and used than to embrace those additions made by the Roman Church which are no parts of true and saving Religion nor have ever been so accounted by the generality of Christians And though our ancestors might have some excuse from the state of this Church in their days yet we their posterity should be utterly inexcusable if now that our Church has so justly reformed her self from Popish corruptions we should break off from her communion and go over to the Church of Rome that hates to be reformed This were to add the guilt of Schism to that of Superstition T. Your answer is very clear and full and may well enough serve for the solution of his fifth Query which is to the same purpose with the former viz. Can you make evident at least that in your little flock or in Luther and Calvin their guides more holiness and virtue was to be found than in the Catholicks And that it is this little flock of yours not the Catholicks that go the narrow way that leads to life L. To this may easily be answered as you have formerly instructed me that though Luther and Calvin were learned and good men who in their own times and places did much service for the Reformation of Religion yet they never had authority in our Church nor do we own them as our guides The blessed Iesus is the Author of our Religion and after him the holy Apostles were the teachers of it being no other than Christianity it self and consequently the true way to eternal happiness even that narrow way of truth and holiness which the whole flock of Christ
which we are far from granting And even this much may well enough serve to shew the weakness of his argument L. Very weak it is indeed when though it should be granted yet makes little or nothing to his purpose T. But in the next place I would have you further consider what has often before been suggested and proved that the Church of Rome is at this day so degenerated and corrupted that supposing you lived under a Popish Government even in Rome it self where the Pope is in effect King as well as Bishop yet there it would be utterly unlawful for you to hold communion with that Church upon the terms now required by it For this Church I say is foully degenerated from its Primitive purity both in Doctrine Worship and Discipline and is thereby guilty in some sort of Apostasie Heresie and Schism even so far as to make her communion unlawful since it cannot be had without a most sinful compliance with her in gross errors and corruptions 1 I say she is guilty of Apostasie and have before made it evident in that she teaches such false Doctrines as were not own'd and uses such a corrupt way of worship as was not practised in the first ages of the Christian Church Hereby therefore she has Apostatized or departed from that purity and integrity which she was once honoured with when her faith was spoken of throughout the world Rom. 1. For pray consider a Church may be guilty of a great degree of Apostasie though she does not renounce the very name and title of Christianity Those Churches of Asia to which the Messages were sent in the second and third of the Revelation did not renounce the name of Christians but yet we read that they had faln from their first love and were so far declined that of some of them it s said they had only a name to live and were dead and are severely threatned that without repentance and reformation they should be destroy'd How the Church of Rome has vilely degenerated from the Primitive Church has already been shewn in many instances particularly as to their way of Worship whilst they pray to Angels and Saints make use of Images worship the Consecrated bread take away the Cup from the people in the Communion have their Service in an unknown Tongue c. Now because she is guilty of such Apostasie and corruption in her Worship every good Christian who makes conscience of worshipping God according to his will reveal'd in his Word may justly refuse to joyn with her therein 2 And not only in her Worship but in her Doctrine also she hath apostatized from the Primitive integrity even from the true rule of Faith the holy Word of God And on this account she may justly be reputed guilty of Heresie if by that word you understand very soul and gross errors apparently contrary to the holy Scriptures and to the Doctrines of the Primitive Church Such for instance are their Doctrines of the Popes Supremacy and power of deposing Princes for Heresie and of their Churches Infallibility be it in Pope Council people or where you will for they are not agreed amongst themselves about it Such also are their Doctrines of Transubstantiation Purgatory with others the like Now here it 's a vain thing to ask by what General Council were these Errors condemned what Fathers wrote against them c. since there never was any true General Council called since the Church of Rome broached and maintain'd these Errors And those who are commonly honoured with the title of Fathers viz. the Christian Writers for five or six hundred years after our Saviour were dead and gone before that time Though some of the most holy and learned men of those ages wherein these Errors were first published did with great zeal and diligence oppose and testifie against them as against Transubstantiation Image-worship c. But it 's enough for us that these Doctrines are contrary to Scripture and to the writings of the most ancient Fathers and were never established by those famous Councils of old which best deserve the name of General On account therefore of these false Doctrines also I reckon it utterly unlawful to hold communion with the Romish Church since we cannot be admitted to it without professing our consent to and approbation of them 3 And therefore lastly this Church is notoriously guilty of Schism that is of a groundless sinful separation from other faithful Christians whilst she makes such unlawful terms of Communion that no man well informed can with a good conscience comply with Now in order to our proving the Church of Rome guilty of Schism there 's no great need of answering his captious questions whose company did she leave where was the true Church which she forsook c. For though these questions are proper enough when we speak of the Schism of particular persons from the Church of which they were members yet the case is different when we are speaking of a whole Church its self becoming Schismatical this is to be shewn plainest by other methods to which I shall now apply my self and shall also as I go along give sufficient answer even to those questions so as shall abundantly serve to demonstrate the Church of Rome to be deeply guilty of this heinous sin of Schism and that on sundry accounts 1. If a particular Church shall advance her self above all other Churches and set up her Bishop as the Supreme Governour of all other Christian Bishops and Churches and will have no Communion with any but such as shall submit to her Supremacy this is a Schismatical Church For without any just ground she withdraws her self from her Sister-Churches and gives them just cause to renounce communion with her And this is the Case of the Romish Church who makes this proud claim and hath thereby divided her self from all other Churches that will not submit to her which they who do are themselves partakers with her in Schism whilst they set up a false head of the Church without any good warrant from Scripture Reason or Antiquity 2. When a particular Church on account of this unjust claim of Supremacy shall draw away the Members of other particular Churches perswading them to separate from their own Bishops and Pastors and to entertain such as she sets over them she is in this also plainly Schismatical as making horrid rents and divisions in neighbouring Churches which else might have lived in peace and union And those Members who are thus seduced and drawn away are also guilty of Schism in leaving their own proper Pastors to follow Usurpers and Intruders And this also is the case of the Romish Church and its adherents at this day 3. If any Church shall impose unlawful conditions upon her Members so that they cannot live in Communion with her without being guilty of wilfull sin then is that Church it self to be pronounced Schismatical and not those Members who for so good reason withdraw
our Church both formerly and very lately Only pray consider what an unreasonable thing it is for any to pretend that they have as good ground to separate from our Church as our Church it self had to separate from Rome Surely there is a very plain and vast difference in the case since as I have often told you the Church of Rome has nothing to do with us in England and she also imposed things unlawful as conditions of Communion Neither of which can be justly pleaded by our Separatists For I hope the authority of our Church and State extends to those of our own Nation and I reckon that our obedience in this case is bound upon us by the express commands of God himself which enjoyns us to be subject to the higher Powers to Kings and all in authority under them to obey them that have the Spiritual rule over us and watch for our souls to have respect to the very custom of the Church wherein we live to consult for the peace of it and to avoid all factions and divisions By such precepts I reckon we are obliged to submit to lawful authority requiring of us nothing but what is lawful And nothing else doth our Church require for there is nothing in her Prayers or Sacraments contrary to the Word of God This holy Word neither directly or by any good consequence forbids forms of Prayer or kneeling at the Communion which is all that the people are concerned in for as to the Cross and Surplice they belong to the Minister Now one would wonder how ever any man should fancy that a Prayer becomes unlawful by my knowing it beforehand and having often used it one would think this should rather recommend it Or why should it seem unlawful to kneel in reverence to God when I receive from him such great blessings as are represented and bestow'd in the Lords-Supper and am praying that I may effectually partake of them Are these things to be compared with what the Church of Rome requires of its members Is a form of Prayer to the true God like worshipping an Image or praying to an Angel or Saint which in other words is but to ask whether saying the Lords-prayer be as much a fault as praying to the Virgin Mary Is our kneeling to God at the Communion like adoring the Host which our Church expresly declared her abhorrence of as gross Idolatry But besides all this it cannot so fitly be said that our Church separated from the Church of Rome to which she ow'd no obedience but rather that she only Reformed her self from such errors and corruptions as the Romish Church was infected with and had spread the infection amongst her neighbours But Papists properly were the Separatists who refused to hold communion with our Church after it was Reformed though this Reformation was wrought in a regular manner and by just authority as I have before shewn And yet after all shall this our Church be stiled Popish when those holy men who were chief Reformers of it and who composed and used those Prayers which are objected against laid down their lives many of them for a testimony against Popery Yea and all other Reformed Churches have profest their great honour for our Church their communion with it and have as occasion has been offered declared against those who separate from it yea the most learned and judicious Nonconformists themselves have heretofore with great zeal preach'd and written against such separation and some of them more lately So that they who separate from us and set up Churches of their own gathering in opposition to those established by Law seem to have espoused a very desperate cause which has neither Scripture Reason nor good authority to defend it Strange that the Church of England which hath generally been accounted the glory and bulwark of the Reformation the envy and vexation of the Papist that yet she her self should be deserted and condemned by those who come out of her own bowels as a Popish Church O that there were many more such Popish Churches in the world Or rather O that all Christian Churches were so thoroughly Reformed from Popery In how happy a state would Christendom then be Wherefore again let me beseech you as you have any regard to the peace and prosperity of Church and State and to the interest of Religion amongst us see that you vehemently abhor all thoughts of Separation utterly reject all temptations to it For Religions sake I say for it 's too too apparent how much this suffers by our divisions as well as the publick weal whilst we are broken into parties and factions it threatens ruin to the Kingdom thus divided against it self yea and to the Kingdom of God also that is amongst us for this consists in righteousness and peace and that joy in the Holy Ghost which flows from charity and concord But where there is strife and envy there will be confusion and disorder and every evil work censures and slanders hatred and malice sedition and rebellion biting and devouring each other till at length without the infinite mercy of God we shall be consumed one of another or by a common enemy Wherefore I will add If you have any zeal against Popery see that you live in strict communion with the Church of England as now by Law established For nothing can be more directly framed in opposition to Popery than the whole constitution of our Church and should this be broken to pieces to what shall we crumble whither shall we run who can tell us nay who cannot tell what in all likelihood will be the event If in a besieged City there be several factions that in fury against each other break down their own walls and throw open their Gates are they not like to fall into the hands of their enemies who are watching for such an advantage whatever abhorrence our Dissenters have for Popery they cannot do a thing more pleasing to the Papist or more serviceable to his cause than to reproach the Church of England as Popish and set up themselves as a party against it By this means they give their assistance for the weakning and destroying of that Church which the Papist on the other hand hath so long been endeavouring to undermine and subvert by whose overthrow though the Papist might be exalted yet themselves most probably and most justly too would be crushed in pieces by its ruins But I fear I have tired you L. So far from it that I am greatly pleased with this your serious and earnest advice which may the better secure me against all temptations to separation if hereafter I should meet with them But I hope through the grace of God I shall always live so mindful of my duty to yield obedience to my Rulers in all things lawful and to do my utmost for preservation of the peace both of Church and State that I shall never be drawn into any separating party or faction which oft occasions